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Speaker 2: pcosh Energy dot E for fulties and ceas. Oh hey,
Speaker 2: it's that guy from work who goes to amusement parks
Speaker 2: alone and has to convince people he's not a creep.
Speaker 2: He just likes admiring the art design. Ali Wart back
Speaker 2: with another episode of Ologies, in which we let one
Speaker 2: expert let his freak flag fly and by freak imming flag,
Speaker 2: so we let his flag fly fly. This dude loves flags.
Speaker 2: I love him for it. But before we run this
Speaker 2: interview of the poll, let's thanks a few folks, shall we? Okay? Yes, So,
Speaker 2: first of all, thank you to all the patrons at
Speaker 2: Patreon dot com slash Ologies. Y'all make the show possible.
Speaker 2: It would not exist without you. I love your questions
Speaker 2: each week. Thank you to everyone buying ologies merch like
Speaker 2: hats and shirts and tots at ologiesmerch dot com. To
Speaker 2: everyone who supports a show for zero dollars just by
Speaker 2: gabbing about it or using your finger on your phone
Speaker 2: to keep it in the top ten science podcasts by
Speaker 2: rating it. Subscribing also helps most of all leaving a review,
Speaker 2: all of which get read by my tired and sometimes
Speaker 2: teary eyes because y'all are so kind, such as, for example,
Speaker 2: Podcast Pretty, who says this podcast is weird and by
Speaker 2: weird I mean perfectly vulnerable and fascinating and my new
Speaker 2: favorite podcast I've recommended to everyone. I am now making
Speaker 2: an effort to show up like I belong and try
Speaker 2: to have fun. Thanks Sally, Thank you Podcast Pretty, and
Speaker 2: everyone who leaves reviews. I do read them. I love them.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Okay, vexillology, aren't you glad that
Speaker 2: there's a parenthetical flags after that? Because who knows what
Speaker 2: vexillology means? Where does this word even come from? Okay,
Speaker 2: buckle up, got to get cute. So vexillology has its
Speaker 2: roots in Latin for little sale vellam as a sale
Speaker 2: or a curtain, and it's related to veil. So if
Speaker 2: you rip a flag, are you piercing the veil? Because
Speaker 2: that would be a disaster. This reference will only make
Speaker 2: sense if you listened to last week's Disastrology episode. And
Speaker 2: I'm just sorry. I'm sorry to everybody else. That was
Speaker 2: cheap and I went for it. Okay. So the term vexology,
Speaker 2: it was coined in nineteen fifty nine by a flag
Speaker 2: enthusiast and designer and political scholar, the late Whitney Smith Junior.
Speaker 2: And if you're like, damn it, I wish I were
Speaker 2: a vexillologist, but you're just a flag fan. Don't worry,
Speaker 2: You're still a vexillolophile. Drop that on a first date.
Speaker 2: See how that's received. Okay. So this vexill vex vexillologist,
Speaker 2: vexillologist came into my life one fateful day in Hawaii.
Speaker 2: I was on that Atlas Obscure trip with Touthology guest
Speaker 2: squid expert and as of a few days ago, doctor
Speaker 2: Mackinnaughty and I was about to get a behind the
Speaker 2: scenes tour of the Majestic Bishop Museum on the island
Speaker 2: of Oahu, and wonderful persons Hadley Anderson and Meghan Ramsey,
Speaker 2: who are Olagites and museum workers, met up with me.
Speaker 2: They hooked me up with a local flag expert, so
Speaker 2: we met the next day in my hotel. I rushed
Speaker 2: in straight from the beach with very bad hair and
Speaker 2: mascara on my face, and he was Natalie, dressed in
Speaker 2: a vintage tikisuit hit a fresh haircut. He was sipping
Speaker 2: some soda in the hotel bar. He handed me a
Speaker 2: miniature Hawaiian standard flag. We ducked into a room to
Speaker 2: chat flags. You're about to go through quite a journey,
Speaker 2: hearing about everything from why flags exist, to if you
Speaker 2: can get arrested for stomping on one, to have to
Speaker 2: dispose of a flag, to what flags have to do
Speaker 2: with conspiracy theories, to some pirate trivia, why Hawaii has
Speaker 2: a Union jack on its flag, the hardest flags to draw,
Speaker 2: which colors we don't see on flags, and why which
Speaker 2: state flag fla needs a makeover? The hardest, how to
Speaker 2: design a flag? Had a store one who designed our
Speaker 2: modern American flag? And how you two can have fun
Speaker 2: with flags all year round. So get ready to fly
Speaker 2: high with flag professional and vexcillologist Tory light Ala. It's
Speaker 2: l a I t I l atola. Okay, I want
Speaker 2: to make sure I say that right. You are a vexillologist.
Speaker 3: Yes, I am a vexologist. Vexillologist, it's not an easy
Speaker 3: one to say. Oh, it's not. No, it's not. But
Speaker 3: my day job is registrar. Oh, so I would consider
Speaker 3: myself an amateur vexillologist, but I do do it as
Speaker 3: part of my day job. So I do get called on,
Speaker 3: called upon to answer quite a few flag questions during
Speaker 3: the week. What is a registrar to I'm an arts registrar,
Speaker 3: so I manage the City Countye of Honulu's public art collection.
Speaker 3: So a registrar is a person in a museum who
Speaker 3: handles all the records and sometimes the physical objects. I
Speaker 3: handle a public art collection for the City Countye of Honolulu.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, so right now we have seventeen works
Speaker 3: collestion as of today. As of today. Yes.
Speaker 2: So. Tory got his bachelor's in museum studies at the
Speaker 2: University of Manoa in Hawaii and spent seventeen years as
Speaker 2: a registrar in Honolulu's Mayor's Office of Culture and the Arts.
Speaker 2: He was an expert in charge of public art collections
Speaker 2: and who flies what flags when? So. Starting in September, though,
Speaker 2: he'll be the Curator of Textiles and Fashion at the
Speaker 2: Honolulu Museum of Art, which is very exciting for him.
Speaker 2: The dude digs flags, he loves. How did you get
Speaker 2: into it?
Speaker 3: I actually have a background in our history. Really I have,
Speaker 3: might agree is in our history. But my focus was costume.
Speaker 2: I really I was gonna say, because you're very natalie dressed.
Speaker 2: You're very well dressed, you have lovely hair and an
Speaker 2: awesome printed blazer.
Speaker 3: Well, I noticed you're a fan of vintage clothing, so
Speaker 3: I wore a tiki blazer today.
Speaker 2: Did you make this?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: I did so.
Speaker 2: Side Oute. It's true that I have a collection of
Speaker 2: vintage dresses. Not only do they never go out of style,
Speaker 2: but just try to beat a twenty four dollars hands
Speaker 2: sewn thrift store gown. This someone else farted in. You can't.
Speaker 2: History is rich and I love it. So. Torri's blazer,
Speaker 2: by the way, was a replica of a type of
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties tropical Polynesian style sports jacket which was unlined
Speaker 2: so you could wear it in the tropics and not
Speaker 2: schitz too hard. But the originals tend to be made
Speaker 2: too small for this tall dude. So his work and
Speaker 2: passion for historical textiles involved not just flags, but clothes too.
Speaker 2: His career is like a rich tapestry, and it also
Speaker 2: does involve tapestries.
Speaker 3: And so you start dating, you can ability to date
Speaker 3: clothes on and their usage, who use them because there
Speaker 3: was a time where you know, the appearance of a
Speaker 3: person would dictate maybe their economic class, occupation. And another thing,
Speaker 3: I like to say that clothing is the most intimate
Speaker 3: of artifacts that tells you about a specific individual.
Speaker 2: And so does it make sense that you would also
Speaker 2: be interested in a fabric banner that says a lot
Speaker 2: about a country?
Speaker 3: Well? I did take a history of Texas class in
Speaker 3: college and that was never covered. So on my final
Speaker 3: I brought it up, and that was my argument. We
Speaker 3: did not study these small pieces of cloth that have
Speaker 3: affected history and have caused people to die or give
Speaker 3: their life to over time.
Speaker 2: That wasn't that was your final paper?
Speaker 3: Well, that was my final argument on the final for
Speaker 3: that class.
Speaker 2: Would you get what grade?
Speaker 3: I passed nice?
Speaker 2: Was your teacher for to write nice?
Speaker 3: At the end, I think she reluctantly admitted that it
Speaker 3: wasn't covered in class.
Speaker 2: She's like next day A good point, all right, fine?
Speaker 2: She waved the white flag if you will.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So in his Costuming and Textiles final he argued that
Speaker 2: flags were hugely important and they were like, guys, get
Speaker 2: a point. As for the tiki culture throwback, it spans
Speaker 2: at least a generation. So. Tory's mother was from Guam,
Speaker 2: an island of Micronesia that's a US territory and side note,
Speaker 2: has a very cute flag featuring a little blue background
Speaker 2: and what looks like a tiny portal of a tropical
Speaker 2: scene replete with a coconut tree and a canoe. And
Speaker 2: it also has a border of red around it to
Speaker 2: symbolize the hardships that the islands endured. It's a pretty
Speaker 2: great flag anyway. Torre's mom from Guam moved to Ohio
Speaker 2: and worked in this famous tiki bar, Columbus's renown hangout,
Speaker 2: the Kahiki Tiki Bar, until the family moved to Hawaii
Speaker 2: when he was a teeny baby, and Tory spent his
Speaker 2: summers between the Midwest and Guam. Honestly googled a Guam flag.
Speaker 2: It looks like a girl Scout badge. It's very cute.
Speaker 2: So you had kind of an interest in island culture
Speaker 2: and a background in island culture.
Speaker 3: I grew up in Hawaii. I was born in Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 3: and my parents moved to Hawaii I was maybe like
Speaker 3: six months old.
Speaker 2: Oh, and so you've lived in Hawaii most of your life. Yes,
Speaker 2: And when did you kind of want to get into
Speaker 2: the preservation of its art and artifacts.
Speaker 3: Well, I've always liked things, stuff, and you know how
Speaker 3: they work and when it comes. And when I went
Speaker 3: to college and I saw, oh, art history, it's that,
Speaker 3: and so you know, a little light bulb went off
Speaker 3: and said, well, I can like study history in the
Speaker 3: context of.
Speaker 2: Stuff, history in the context of items, right, and now
Speaker 2: tell me a little bit about what it takes to
Speaker 2: get to know flags. Where did you start? Did you
Speaker 2: start just perusing books?
Speaker 3: So I read a lot as a child. I mean
Speaker 3: I had an encyclopedia at home, and I would read
Speaker 3: the encyclopedia and just pull off a volume and start reading.
Speaker 3: But my mother, for a short time, she was actually
Speaker 3: working at an export company, so she would sell things
Speaker 3: to the shops in Waikiki, but she worked for a
Speaker 3: heraldry shop in Waikiki. What is that so haraldry? Well,
Speaker 3: a heraldry shop would be one where that you would
Speaker 3: go in and they would look up your name and
Speaker 3: then they'd find the coat of arms for your name
Speaker 3: and you could buy stuff with that quote of arms
Speaker 3: on it.
Speaker 1: There's a picture of my own coat of arms actually.
Speaker 3: So haraldry are coat of arms?
Speaker 2: Oh my god?
Speaker 3: They all have meaning, you know the shield where the
Speaker 3: crest would have the quat of arms and it would
Speaker 3: tell you something about that person, whether it was whether
Speaker 3: they came from England or France or Germany, whether they
Speaker 3: were the second born son, or what families married.
Speaker 2: And so you kind of started with that was that
Speaker 2: your entree was that like a creaky door.
Speaker 3: So the heraldry leads to flags because a lot of
Speaker 3: flags use a similar language or are derived from that
Speaker 3: style of heraldry.
Speaker 2: Now, what's the difference between a flag and a pennant?
Speaker 2: Oh boy, howdy okay buckle up for some vexillological terminology.
Speaker 3: So a flag is usually a rectangular attached to one
Speaker 3: of its sides and can flutter in the wind, and
Speaker 3: a pennant is usually a streamer oh either pointed, so
Speaker 3: a triangular or maybe with a swallowtail. And the other
Speaker 3: item would be a gonfolon. What so a gonfolon would
Speaker 3: be a vertically hung pennant.
Speaker 2: So this is the first time I had ever heard
Speaker 2: the word gonfalon, but I looked it up and it's
Speaker 2: essentially a squareish flag or a seal, sometimes little tassels
Speaker 2: at the bottom, and it's hung from a crossbar. It
Speaker 2: kind of seems like something you'd see at the head
Speaker 2: of a formal procession, or like a mass. But also
Speaker 2: a gonfalon sounds a little too close to Kurt Fonnegut's
Speaker 2: Grand Faloon, which if you ever read Cat's you might
Speaker 2: remember is the term for people who feel united but
Speaker 2: are really only tethered together by an association that's utterly meaningless.
Speaker 2: Then I started to spiral down an existential rabbit hole
Speaker 2: about nationalism and what it means to live on a
Speaker 2: bordered planet, but also community and belonging is important. Then
Speaker 2: I had to just snap out of it. Snap out
Speaker 2: of it anyway. Torri has a ton of flags at home,
Speaker 2: and I asked if they were kept in an orderly fashion.
Speaker 2: What's the best way to keep a flag rolled? Rolled? Okay? Yes,
Speaker 2: don't fold that thing unless it's specifically folded.
Speaker 3: Well, you can fold it, and interestingly not every country
Speaker 3: has guidelines for folding a flag.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So in the US we have where you'd fold the
Speaker 3: flag in quarters lengthwise and then you do a triangular fold.
Speaker 3: There's one in the Navy tradition because you can leave
Speaker 3: the flag folded, attach it to the halliard and pull
Speaker 3: it up and it'll automatically unravel well. And so the
Speaker 3: other common way, which the UK will do sometimes, and
Speaker 3: I believe Japan, is where they fold it into quarters
Speaker 3: and then it's folded into thirds and then rolled up
Speaker 3: the last third and then tied with string. And so
Speaker 3: I know in UK tradition that you'll use a small
Speaker 3: piece of string attacked it to the halliard and then
Speaker 3: when you pull it, when you give it a jerk,
Speaker 3: it'll break the string and the flag infurls.
Speaker 2: A too much fanfare and trumpetry correct fanfair fanfare This
Speaker 2: is a trumpetery, not a word, okay, so quick aside.
Speaker 2: Trumpetry is the blaring sound of trumpets, and fanfair is
Speaker 2: a short and lively sounding of trumpets. So I hereby
Speaker 2: give you permission to say a fanfare of trumpetry, just
Speaker 2: to annoy anyone who's not a fan of redundant redundancies.
Speaker 3: But not every country has flag protocols like the US.
Speaker 2: I always think of, like how easy Japan has it.
Speaker 2: When you're a kid and you have to draw your flag,
Speaker 2: You're like, I got a dot in the middle, I'm
Speaker 2: good to go. And then Mexico's like I got to
Speaker 2: draw a serpent and some kind of bird. Some flags
Speaker 2: are just geometric blocks, and then others have these drawings
Speaker 2: on them that are difficult to replicate. Who decided what
Speaker 2: goes on a flag?
Speaker 3: So's it's usually the country, okay or the head of state.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So you look like a lot of older flags, they
Speaker 3: are just you know, sometimes one, two, three colors, horizontal
Speaker 3: lines or vertical lines, you know, stripes, and you know
Speaker 3: that goes back to heraldry where there was the king
Speaker 3: and he might have a coat of arms and it
Speaker 3: might have one or two colors, so you replicate that
Speaker 3: on the flag.
Speaker 2: Oh okay? Quick aside about the Japanese flag also called
Speaker 2: the hinumaro, so that big crimson dot is representing the
Speaker 2: sun because Japan is known as the land of the
Speaker 2: Rising Sun. And while their big signature red dot on
Speaker 2: a field of white has been used since the fourteen hundreds,
Speaker 2: it was designed formerly in eighteen seventy, it wasn't legally
Speaker 2: adopted until nineteen ninety nine. That's like being engaged for
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty nine years. Everyone just assumes you're married,
Speaker 2: but really there's drama at home. So folks opposed didn't
Speaker 2: like a certain shift toward post war nationalism, so adopting
Speaker 2: it officially was a big deal. But it's been twenty
Speaker 2: years since it's been the flag of Japan by law. Bonus.
Speaker 2: It's pretty easy to draw, though, why is this a bonus?
Speaker 2: According to the North American Vexillological Society's two thousand and
Speaker 2: six edict Good Flag, Bad Flag, there are a few
Speaker 2: key principles to designing a good flag. The five principles
Speaker 2: are keep it simple. The flag should be so simple
Speaker 2: that a child can draw it from memory or an
Speaker 2: adult who's bad at drawing too. Use meaningful symbolism. Number three,
Speaker 2: use two or three basic colors. Number four no lettering
Speaker 2: or seal. Never use writing of any kind or an
Speaker 2: organization's seal that law's broken. A lot number five be
Speaker 2: distinctive or be related, so avoid duplicating other flags, but
Speaker 2: use some similarities to show connections. Anyone who heard Roman
Speaker 2: Mars Spectacular twenty fifteen ted talk on city flags might
Speaker 2: be familiar with these flag fashion dues and don'ts, which
Speaker 2: make us all now qualified flag critics. Now, Mexico, I
Speaker 2: love you your flag. What the hell man? Growing up
Speaker 2: trying to draw the flag of Mexico with this ordinate
Speaker 2: eagle eating a serpent well perched on a prickly pair.
Speaker 2: This was an exercise of childhood artistic humility, or really
Speaker 2: for anyone without a studio art degree. But I did
Speaker 2: some reading and knowing it's a symbol delivered by a
Speaker 2: god of war via a dream to an Aztec leader
Speaker 2: about where to settle what's now Mexico City, I'm like,
Speaker 2: all right, yes, this flag is very badass and it's
Speaker 2: very beautiful, and I love it Mexico. Please don't be
Speaker 2: offended if my rendition looks like a cat eating a noodle. Now,
Speaker 2: as we talked, I was holding this small version of
Speaker 2: the Hawaiian flag, this red, white and blue striping number
Speaker 2: with a British flag where the US stars would be
Speaker 2: on a US flag. What's happening here? And now? Why
Speaker 2: do you think red, white, blue? Why are those colors
Speaker 2: so common? Or do I just think they're common because
Speaker 2: I'm holding a red, white and blue flag in the
Speaker 2: country that I was born and has those colors.
Speaker 3: Well, in the US, we referred to it as red,
Speaker 3: white and blue. Hawaii, it's white, red, and blue. So
Speaker 3: that's the order of precedence for the lines.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, so when you say red, white and blue
Speaker 2: on an American flag, does that mean that the red
Speaker 2: stripes on top?
Speaker 3: So the reds red and white, and then blue is
Speaker 3: for the union or the canton, which is that field
Speaker 3: on the side.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, gives.
Speaker 3: There are parts of the flag.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give me break me down some anatomy one to
Speaker 2: one on a flag.
Speaker 3: So flags are usually a square rectangular and the part
Speaker 3: that attaches to the halliard, which is the rope that
Speaker 3: pulls it up and down, that's called the hoist. Okay,
Speaker 3: the opposite side is called the fly, and usually the
Speaker 3: top is the top or the head, and the bottom
Speaker 3: of the.
Speaker 2: Bottom is that where on the fly comes from.
Speaker 3: On the fly being ready to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, like, oh, I'm on the fly,
Speaker 2: like I'm on the I don't know. I'm going to
Speaker 2: look it up. Okay. Side note on the fly is
Speaker 2: not a vexillo logical idiom. It comes from baseball, like
Speaker 2: a flyball and to recap flagnatomy. So the field is
Speaker 2: the main area and the canton is the picture in
Speaker 2: picture area. And these specific terms were necessary because in
Speaker 2: the oldie time of days, you couldn't just air drop
Speaker 2: your design. You had to like scream it into a
Speaker 2: tin can connected to another tin can and then etch
Speaker 2: it via a spent match stick on some birch bark
Speaker 2: and then let an owl grasp it in its talons
Speaker 2: to drop off at the weaver. Now we're in Hawaii.
Speaker 2: Fiftieth star.
Speaker 3: Yes, Now there wasn't a forty ninth star flag right.
Speaker 2: Because it Alaska and Hawaii same time, because.
Speaker 3: They don't change the US flag until July fourth of
Speaker 3: the following year.
Speaker 2: They don't. Yes, oh my gosh, So they were admitted
Speaker 2: the same time, less.
Speaker 3: Within within the twelve month span to get.
Speaker 2: Nice because that would have been a little bit awkward.
Speaker 3: So there, I understand. There are a few fortnite star
Speaker 3: flags made, but they just delayed it and fifty stars.
Speaker 2: Now we have a fifty star flag. What about say
Speaker 2: Puerto Rico or Guam. Let's say those become states in
Speaker 2: the future. What would we do with a fifty first?
Speaker 2: Could we put it anywhere?
Speaker 3: It would have to go back to design and they
Speaker 3: would figure out where if they would change the arrangement
Speaker 3: of the field, because there were times throughout the US
Speaker 3: history where the arrangements of stars changed. I mean people
Speaker 3: are familiar with the Betsy Ross flag where they're in
Speaker 3: a circle. I mean during the Civil War. Sometimes they
Speaker 3: over lined up. Sometimes they were arranged in circles with
Speaker 3: a few outlier stars.
Speaker 2: Okay, quick aside, is the Betsy Ross flag origin story?
Speaker 2: Flim Philam, what's the deal? So a little more on
Speaker 2: that in a bit, But a fun fact. Some folks,
Speaker 2: but not all, used the thirteen star Betsy Ross flag
Speaker 2: as a throwback to pre abolition days, which is gross
Speaker 2: and scary some people, probably a slim minority. So let's
Speaker 2: continue the discussion about US territories and plunging a flag
Speaker 2: into them. Why aren't territories such as for example, Guam
Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico and the US Region Islands and American
Speaker 2: Samoa states. So this is a discussion called the fifty
Speaker 2: first state. And as of a twenty seventeen referendum, ninety
Speaker 2: percent of voters in Puerto Rico shows statehood, although their
Speaker 2: voter turnout was pretty low, so it's hard to say
Speaker 2: how many people in Puerto Rico and general support it.
Speaker 2: So why are some US territories states and others aren't.
Speaker 2: Is this just simply a design issue? Heads up the
Speaker 2: fifty first state debate? Probably as not a design issue.
Speaker 2: In fact, as a high school student, a guy named
Speaker 2: Bob Heft heard that Alaska was set to become the
Speaker 2: forty nine state, and so a class project, he took
Speaker 2: his parents' flag with forty eight stars on it then
Speaker 2: and spend days arranging fifty stars on it. His teacher
Speaker 2: thought his projects sucked gave him a BNS, so Heft,
Speaker 2: looking for some extra credit, he petitioned Congress to accept
Speaker 2: it as the new fifty star design after Hawaii and
Speaker 2: Alaska became states, HA, and it's been in rotation ever since.
Speaker 2: Thanks Heff says he has a fifty one star flag
Speaker 2: ready should the country keep expanding, So no, the fifty
Speaker 2: one state debate probably is not just a design issue,
Speaker 2: goes a little deeper than that. And now do you
Speaker 2: think that there's any hold up in maybe adding more
Speaker 2: states because we feel too lazy to change the flag?
Speaker 3: Got room for one more? Well, they could decide not
Speaker 3: to change the flag, but I would assume they would
Speaker 3: add stars for any additional states.
Speaker 2: And what are the most common colors in flags that
Speaker 2: you see?
Speaker 3: Red, white, and blue are pretty prevalent globally for flags.
Speaker 2: What do they mean?
Speaker 3: Well, they have varying degrees. So in the US they
Speaker 3: do have a few poems, and we could actually look
Speaker 3: up The Elks Lodge has a really nice poem and
Speaker 3: describes the red, white and blue of the flag beautifully,
Speaker 3: very very poetically.
Speaker 2: So I did find on usflag dot Org that the
Speaker 2: colors red, white, and blue did not have meanings for
Speaker 2: America when it was adopted on the flag in seventeen
Speaker 2: seventy seven. However, the colors of the Great Seal did
Speaker 2: have specific meanings. So Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress,
Speaker 2: reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated that white signifies
Speaker 2: purity and innocence, red heartiness and valor and blue signifies vigilance, perseverance,
Speaker 2: and justice. So it was on the seal and they
Speaker 2: were like, I just use it on the flag, kind
Speaker 2: of like eating leftover pizza for breakfast, which is also
Speaker 2: very American. So I looked all over for this Elks
Speaker 2: Lodge poem and I swear I could not find it.
Speaker 2: But I did find out that Idaho and Michigan both
Speaker 2: have elks on their flags. Michigan has what appears to
Speaker 2: be an elk dan with a moose over a banner
Speaker 2: that reads circumspice, which I just learned in Latin is
Speaker 2: care com speak and it means hey, look around you.
Speaker 2: So Michigan, look around you. Maybe you'll see an elk
Speaker 2: dancing with a moose. God, that'd be dope. Do you
Speaker 2: ever have people show you a picture of a flag
Speaker 2: and quiz you to see if you know where it's from.
Speaker 3: They don't quiz me. But every once in a while
Speaker 3: we will run across flags somewhere with some group and
Speaker 3: they were, is this from? And I have to look
Speaker 3: at it. I don't have all the flags rise. It
Speaker 3: would be great, it'd be a great trivia. But in
Speaker 3: my daily work, my vexol logical duties usually fall under
Speaker 3: what would be the job of the protocol officer. Okay,
Speaker 3: and so that would be determining order of precedents of flags.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we're very specific about it. There are
Speaker 2: approximately one million rules in terms of how to fly
Speaker 2: an American flag. But I will summer rise. So the
Speaker 2: US flag always goes on the left when you're looking
Speaker 2: at it, or on the tallest of the flag poles,
Speaker 2: or on the top of the flag pole with the
Speaker 2: state in the city flag under it. And you can't
Speaker 2: fly an advertising flag on the same pole as the
Speaker 2: US flag. So if anyone's out there messing it up
Speaker 2: with their city flag and a banner for Meta mucil
Speaker 2: and the US flag all on one pole, that's a
Speaker 2: real mess.
Speaker 3: Now, so you go from larger political entity the smaller
Speaker 3: political entity. But like the Olympics, when you have all
Speaker 3: the countries present, what order do you put them in?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: So, Olympic comvitee is usually alphabetical order of the language
Speaker 3: of the host of the host country. Oh so when
Speaker 3: you see the procession of flags, it's in the alphabetical
Speaker 3: order of the language of the host country.
Speaker 2: The language of the host country, right, Okay, where do
Speaker 2: these rules get stored. Are they in a big dusty
Speaker 2: book or do you have to check on a website
Speaker 2: that changes all the time.
Speaker 3: The big dusty book is called the US Flag Code.
Speaker 2: Okay, how old is it? How thick is this book?
Speaker 3: But fortunately the US Government Printing Office does have a
Speaker 3: publication called Our Flag which can be distributed and has
Speaker 3: pictures in it, so you know how to put flags
Speaker 3: on display, and you know if they're going to be
Speaker 3: crossed or if they go If you put them across
Speaker 3: the North South street, the union has to be on
Speaker 3: the north side or if it crosses the It details
Speaker 3: all these in the US Flag Code.
Speaker 2: Are you a person that likes etiquette because it's interesting
Speaker 2: and kind of vintage and like Emily Postyle, or are
Speaker 2: do you begrudgingly acknowledge and adhere to etiquette.
Speaker 3: I do have a coffee of family post home and
Speaker 3: at work, and at work I also keep Letitia Baldridge
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about Letitia Baldridge.
Speaker 3: So she was the protocol officer at the White House
Speaker 3: for over two decades.
Speaker 2: I will be very honest. Protocol and etiquette freaks me
Speaker 2: out because there are so many tiny quiet ways to fail.
Speaker 2: So you either have to go all in and reads
Speaker 2: manners or Emily Post or just screw it and always
Speaker 2: be the social equivalent of a rhino with diarrhea, which
Speaker 2: I sometimes fear I am. And how about your wife?
Speaker 2: Is she as much of a stickler for etiquette or
Speaker 2: do you kind of make sure that you guys send
Speaker 2: presents in the right amount of time and write thank
Speaker 2: your notes? Are you guys different? We try, we try,
Speaker 2: just she have kind of the same vibe.
Speaker 3: I'll say, we try, well, we will refer we will
Speaker 3: refer to well, we will have morning discussions where you know,
Speaker 3: it'll be like we'll go to the OED or sometimes
Speaker 3: said Emily Post does does live next to the OED
Speaker 3: When we have our morning discussions over breakfast, sometimes have
Speaker 3: questions that come up, and so we'll just we'll just
Speaker 3: read the dictionary or etiquete manual over breakfast conversation.
Speaker 2: Do you have a flagpole at your house?
Speaker 3: Before I was married, I had a flag pole in
Speaker 3: my house and outside my.
Speaker 2: House really now just one the inside stay out all
Speaker 2: the time, and outside you have to take and put
Speaker 2: up every day.
Speaker 3: I have a light, okay, so I can leave the
Speaker 3: flag up twenty four. But I do not always fly
Speaker 3: the US flag. Okay, So actually I very rarely fly
Speaker 3: the US flag on my flag pole outdoors, and where
Speaker 3: I used to live before, it was near my door,
Speaker 3: you know how you have it on your Yeah, your
Speaker 3: on your front porch. And I had neighbors and they
Speaker 3: would kind of get a kick out of it, and
Speaker 3: sometimes they didn't figure out what it was. So I'll
Speaker 3: fly a flag relating to the date it's October third,
Speaker 3: or a specific or significant event. And so if they
Speaker 3: don't know, they'll come over say, oh, what's today or
Speaker 3: what's tomorrow.
Speaker 2: How many flags do you have? Oh?
Speaker 3: I don't know, so like what one hundred or so
Speaker 3: one hundred.
Speaker 2: So you change them out, yes, like every couple of days.
Speaker 3: As the mood is fit or weather, because you know,
Speaker 3: you can't have a storm flag, which is usually a
Speaker 3: smaller flag you fly in the same pole, so you
Speaker 3: don't your big flag doesn't get as beat up. God,
Speaker 3: And so I if it's stormy, I won't fly a flag,
Speaker 3: but I will have flags like you know, like for
Speaker 3: October flesh, I'll fly the Bavarian flag. For royal holidays
Speaker 3: in Hawaii, I do fly the Royal standard, and I
Speaker 3: do have some of the standards of the monarchs and
Speaker 3: some of the princesses. There's ANZAC Day or you know
Speaker 3: Canada Day or Australia Day. I'll fly the appropriate flag.
Speaker 2: Or ANZAC by the by, it stands for Australian and
Speaker 2: New Zealand Army Corps and it's the Australian version of
Speaker 2: Memorial Day. But it's in April and about a month later.
Speaker 2: Australia also recognizes Aboriginal suffering with Sorry Day. I mean,
Speaker 2: simple to the point, and among the activities on Sorry
Speaker 2: Day is raising the Aboriginal flag, which is a really
Speaker 2: beautiful design of a black top half representing the Aboriginal
Speaker 2: people of Australia, a red bottom half for the earth
Speaker 2: and the ochre that they use in ceremonies, and in
Speaker 2: the middle a yellow circle for the sun. Beautiful, simple, gorgeous.
Speaker 2: What about did you put out a pride flag at all?
Speaker 2: Or is that is that in the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: I am in receipt, it's still in my office of
Speaker 3: a pride flag from San Francisco from the mayor.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so.
Speaker 3: I haven't, I haven't. It's a really nice flag, because
Speaker 3: I will use the flight of the economy flags at home.
Speaker 3: This is a nice flag, so I have one, I
Speaker 3: just haven't. It's a nice flag.
Speaker 2: So side note. We recorded this in late June, which
Speaker 2: was Pride month, and that led me down a rabbit
Speaker 2: hole to the history of the Pride flag. And it
Speaker 2: was designed by the late artist and activist Gilbert Baker
Speaker 2: before the nineteen seventy eight Gay Freedom Day Parade in
Speaker 2: San Francisco, and it initially had eight stripes and they
Speaker 2: each had specific meeting. It had a hot pink stripe
Speaker 2: that stood for sex, red stood for life, orange, healing, yellow, sunlight,
Speaker 2: green nature, turquoise, magic and art, Indigo, serenity, and violet spirit.
Speaker 2: But hot pink fabric was hard to come by in
Speaker 2: the seventies apparently, and eventually the turquoise in the indigo
Speaker 2: were just blended into one royal blue stripe. And Gilbert
Speaker 2: Baker was a huge part of shaping Pride culture. And
Speaker 2: he was also an activist with a drag nun group,
Speaker 2: the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. His nickname Busty Ross. So
Speaker 2: after you're done flippy flapping them around outside, do you
Speaker 2: have to iron them, breeze them. What's the protocol? And
Speaker 2: what about washing flags?
Speaker 3: How do you wash them so you can get them
Speaker 3: drag cleaned. Oh so, flags nowadays are made out of
Speaker 3: typically nylon, polyester, or cotton. Historically they were made out
Speaker 3: of wool or so much more hearty material. I kind
Speaker 3: of like polyester because you can get polyester that it
Speaker 3: will have the texture of wool. It'll it'll flow nicely
Speaker 3: in the breeze. Nylon's a little different and depending on
Speaker 3: the matrol dictates how long it'll lasts. And cotton. Cotton
Speaker 3: can be nice, but if cotton gets wet, the colors
Speaker 3: do or can and run.
Speaker 2: And isn't it these colors don't run, So don't put
Speaker 2: a cotton flag outside in the rain, Okay, but maybe
Speaker 2: go for a polyester or an island one.
Speaker 3: Correct or wool if you want to make it yourself.
Speaker 2: Can you get a wolf flag?
Speaker 3: It's very rare to get a wolf flag. You can
Speaker 3: have when made, so you can actually do like have
Speaker 3: a flag company make you a flag and they'll still
Speaker 3: be like hand stitched. And there are companies that make
Speaker 3: flags in the US, and there's still people that in
Speaker 3: the factory that will hands sell the flag together.
Speaker 2: Uh, but you got to use some cedar chips or something,
Speaker 2: because like, what could be worse than having a moth
Speaker 2: eat your your flag?
Speaker 3: Well, you fold it up and you put in a case.
Speaker 2: How do you feel when someone drapes themselves in a
Speaker 2: flag for their album covers? I'm thinking there's got to
Speaker 2: be like ten different musicians who have done that.
Speaker 3: That's what bunting is for.
Speaker 2: What is bunting?
Speaker 3: So bunting are pieces of material in red and white
Speaker 3: stripes or sometimes with blue and white stufs that are
Speaker 3: reminiscent of a flag, but not a flag.
Speaker 2: What makes them different? They are different lengths.
Speaker 3: What's not the ratio of a flag with a field
Speaker 3: of red and white stripes and the Union in the
Speaker 3: It's usually maybe a long piece of fabric that's just
Speaker 3: maybe two or three stripes of color and maybe stars
Speaker 3: on one end or not.
Speaker 2: That would be kind of like a costume flag.
Speaker 3: Or you can put it on your patio on the
Speaker 3: fourth of July or decorate your float or maybe your
Speaker 3: speaker's podium. You decorate it with bunting.
Speaker 2: Now, what are you going to do for further July
Speaker 2: fourth of.
Speaker 3: July, I will fly the Betsy Ross flag.
Speaker 2: Oh nice, And now I need to look up her story.
Speaker 2: Do you like her story? Is it worth telling? Or
Speaker 2: are you like, eh, it's apocryphal.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, there are theories on who or who
Speaker 3: came about with the flag, and there is some evidence
Speaker 3: for that she did so a flag and with the
Speaker 3: stars in the circle arrangement. Will acknowledge that as being
Speaker 3: the Betsy Ross design, although there were other designs at
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: Is there any truth to George Washington's wife?
Speaker 3: So there's a story that's passed down through the Ross
Speaker 3: family that says, you know, they were a meeting and
Speaker 3: the generals got together and Mitch Ross was the wife
Speaker 3: of one of the generals and Washington was there. They
Speaker 3: did a little sketch and so she sowed the flag.
Speaker 3: And so there is that story that's the truth.
Speaker 2: What do you think happened?
Speaker 3: There were other flags that were flown by American patriots
Speaker 3: at the time. I mean we from them are familiar with,
Speaker 3: like the Bunker Hill flag or the Gatson flag, that
Speaker 3: don't tread on me flag, And so you have these
Speaker 3: other flags that were used during the American Revolution, and
Speaker 3: the red and white, or the stars and stripes as
Speaker 3: they came to be called, you know, really became the
Speaker 3: one that was accepted nationally.
Speaker 2: What do you think about the don't tread on me flag?
Speaker 3: It's fine, you know they had. It's another flag that
Speaker 3: has its uses and and some people have adopted it
Speaker 3: today to mean other things.
Speaker 2: Right. Gadson's flag side note is primarily mustard yellow, and
Speaker 2: it features this impossibly coiled and I guess ready to
Speaker 2: strike rattlesnake with thirteen rattles representing the original colonies. It
Speaker 2: dates back to that time and it's sometimes used in
Speaker 2: modern day by conservative parties to harken back I guess
Speaker 2: to an arrow when the country was smaller and we
Speaker 2: didn't have indoor plumbing, and rattlesnakes were able to hover
Speaker 2: in the air like a broken mattress. Spring must have
Speaker 2: been a wild era. But there are some mocking don't
Speaker 2: tread on me memes that are just a source of
Speaker 2: priceless parody. I suggest you google these. One of my
Speaker 2: favorites involves a cartoon baby snake that just says please
Speaker 2: no STEPPI, and another of a foot on the snake
Speaker 2: and the text below it. I specifically requested the opposite
Speaker 2: of this, and then there's one that retains the original
Speaker 2: don't tread on me text, but just the image of
Speaker 2: a single lego anyway, changing up flags for fun. So
Speaker 2: do you have a calendar memorized or do you have
Speaker 2: a planner that has like, hey, change flag today.
Speaker 3: I try and write significant dates online calendar.
Speaker 2: That's smart. Do you check it every day?
Speaker 3: I still have a written calendar? Oh, got me toy,
Speaker 3: I'm very low check. I have a wall calendar on
Speaker 3: my wallet home and a desk calendar on my desk
Speaker 3: at work. And they're both handwritten notations, so they have
Speaker 3: to have big squares so you can put things in them.
Speaker 3: And I'll just go back and forth and check. And
Speaker 3: there are a few historical calendars out there that are
Speaker 3: really fun to look at, you know, that have that
Speaker 3: you know, you know on this day in history, and
Speaker 3: so you can you know, add those to your calendars
Speaker 3: which ever seem the significant or that you enjoy and
Speaker 3: put them on your calendar.
Speaker 2: And if you're in the US, September's got a few
Speaker 2: flag worthy days. This episode will come out on Labor Day,
Speaker 2: the evening of you can celebrate Unions September eleventh, the
Speaker 2: flags will be flown at half staff or half masked
Speaker 2: if you're on a boat. Constitution Day aka numalogy a
Speaker 2: Clock is September seventeenth. There is National Prisoner of War
Speaker 2: and Missing in Action Day September nineteenth, and Native America
Speaker 2: Day is September twenty seventh in California and Nevada, but
Speaker 2: Indigenous People's Day is the second Monday of October nationwide.
Speaker 2: This led me to a website that sold flags, CRW
Speaker 2: flags dot com, and they have all manner of banners,
Speaker 2: including some with different dog breeds emblazoned on it. Wouldn't
Speaker 2: you know it that CRW Flags themselves have a flag.
Speaker 2: It's a red, white and blue one and it says
Speaker 2: CRW Flags in brush script. It's a choice, it's an
Speaker 2: artistic choice. Do you have a favorite looking flag, one
Speaker 2: that you're just like? Man? I wish we had that one?
Speaker 3: Well, one of my favorite flags. Is hard to tell
Speaker 3: which one is your favorite because there's a there's a
Speaker 3: flag I fly a lot at home. But a really
Speaker 3: cool looking flag is Ohio?
Speaker 2: What really? I'm sorry, Ohio for doubting you. Okay, tell
Speaker 2: me about it.
Speaker 3: It's a swallow tail pennant.
Speaker 2: Damn, Ohio, I had no idea you had what patent
Speaker 2: holding flag designer John Eisman describes as a quote triangular,
Speaker 2: forked or swallowed tailed flag, corresponding to the shape generally
Speaker 2: known as a cavalriquid on or broad pennant. So beloved
Speaker 2: is Ohio's flag. It's even sold as a necklace. So
Speaker 2: a patented pennant pendant, if I may be a pedant, So.
Speaker 3: That means it's pointy. But then the end isn't a point.
Speaker 3: It's got a swallowtail in it, so it can you
Speaker 3: can fly it upside down. It still looks right side up.
Speaker 3: But who else has a swallow tail pennant?
Speaker 2: No one? How they get so fancy they got tuxtails.
Speaker 3: Well, it's all about the hills and the valleys and
Speaker 3: the rivers of Ohio.
Speaker 2: Oh Man and ever. The rest of us all just
Speaker 2: have squares.
Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the flag code, so there
Speaker 3: is a government specification on the ratio of the flag,
Speaker 3: the height in the width, and some states and other
Speaker 3: munispallets have different sizes. So some flags are a little
Speaker 3: more square, some are a little more rectangular. But most
Speaker 3: of us, in practical usage will fly what's referred to
Speaker 3: as the NATO standard.
Speaker 2: Okay, some standard sizes three by five, four x six.
Speaker 2: But what's the smallest flag? You want to know? Is
Speaker 2: it the size of like your thumbnail, be your pinky nail? Smaller?
Speaker 2: Is it the size of a crumb of banana bread? Oh,
Speaker 2: you have no idea. So I looked it up and
Speaker 2: according to the Guinness Book of World Records, there exists
Speaker 2: a flag that is one one hundredth the width of
Speaker 2: a human hair. It's only viewable with an electron microscope.
Speaker 2: Who made this? What wizardry is this? What is on
Speaker 2: the flag a maple leaf? And it was made with
Speaker 2: UV photo lithography on a wafer coated with electron sensitive
Speaker 2: hydrogen sal sequiozane film by the Institute for Quantum Computing
Speaker 2: NanoFab in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. I'm pretty sure I said
Speaker 2: some of those words wrong. Please bear with me, nanotechnologists, Canadians.
Speaker 2: This achievement is small, but it is mighty. It's absurdly awesome,
Speaker 2: and it makes the palm size Hawaiian flag. Torri gave
Speaker 2: me it seems gargantuan in comparison. And now, okay, tell
Speaker 2: me a little bit about the Hawaiian flag, because what
Speaker 2: I know from being here this week is that there
Speaker 2: are great ways to make a statement with a flag
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize that you could do. And so
Speaker 2: the Hawaiian flag, how would you describe it?
Speaker 3: The Hawaiian flag is rectangular, the ratio is one to two, okay.
Speaker 3: It has a field of h stripes with white, red
Speaker 3: and blue alternating and a union jack in the canton.
Speaker 2: How did they come up with this design?
Speaker 3: So it was during the reign of Comme hand Me
Speaker 3: the first where Hawaii started trading, and so ships needed
Speaker 3: ways to recognize themself when they went to foreign ports.
Speaker 3: And so when Hawaii started trading outside of Hawaii, it
Speaker 3: needed a flag to be recognized, and so they came
Speaker 3: up with the Hawaiian flag, and it was drafted by
Speaker 3: a British officer.
Speaker 2: Side note. Kamer Maya the Great was a ruler who
Speaker 2: united the Hawaiian Islands in the late seventeen hundreds. And
Speaker 2: here's a fun tidbit.
Speaker 4: His full name is Colony put Yer for here Kalekini
Speaker 4: Klikui kamemer oh your leney ekibik pooh kaui khly holy
Speaker 4: ho ku nu ya ka.
Speaker 2: Another fun tidbit, I did not say that Hawaiian born
Speaker 2: patron Iris McPherson did because I did not trust my
Speaker 2: mouth and brain and eyes to get it together.
Speaker 4: On her colony put yer for here kale kini KLi
Speaker 4: kui kamemer oh your leney ekibik pooh kaui khly holy.
Speaker 2: Ho ku nu ya ka. Anyway, ruled through eighteen nineteen,
Speaker 2: and this has nothing to do with anything, but one
Speaker 2: of his wives took the throne after his death, and
Speaker 2: among the things she changed was that women were finally
Speaker 2: allowed to eat bananas. It's bananas. She was also Protestant.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of badness with missionaries. Eventually, the
Speaker 2: US took control of the Kingdom of Hawaii in eighteen
Speaker 2: ninety three in an overthrow that Congress Assistance admitted was illegal.
Speaker 2: Which is why, just in general, a Union jack flag
Speaker 2: seems a little awkward. It's kind of like dating someone
Speaker 2: who still has their excess named tattooed on their stomach,
Speaker 2: and maybe that was a toxic relationship, but also they
Speaker 2: never wanted to date you, but you're forcing them illegally. Anyway,
Speaker 2: everyone just shrugs like wow, that's a lot of bad stuff.
Speaker 3: And it does hold the Union Jack because of the
Speaker 3: close alliance between Hawaii and Britain at the time. Now,
Speaker 3: come hand me. The first liked flags too, so he
Speaker 3: would just fly whatever flag he liked at his compound.
Speaker 2: Now, what is flown most commonly in Hawaii?
Speaker 3: You see the Hawaiian flag. Now, the Hawaiian flag, as
Speaker 3: far as I know, is the only flag that has
Speaker 3: flown unchanged for five different forms of government.
Speaker 2: Why is that? Why didn't they switch it up at all?
Speaker 3: I guess for continuity. I mean it flew under a
Speaker 3: absolute monarchy, constitutional monarchy, a republic, a territory, and a state,
Speaker 3: and they did not change the.
Speaker 2: Flag when it became a state. The US didn't say like, okay,
Speaker 2: real cute, you got a Union Jack. That air is
Speaker 2: over people.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it was the territory and they just
Speaker 3: they kept the flag.
Speaker 2: And I have heard a little bit about the way
Speaker 2: the flag is flown can express different viewpoints, sentiments, protestations.
Speaker 2: Perhaps is it flown upside down right side? What? What
Speaker 2: does it mean?
Speaker 3: So when a flag or any flag is flown upside
Speaker 3: down or visibly upside down, it's a sign of distress,
Speaker 3: a little helpless. So it's usually like maybe sending out
Speaker 3: an SOS signal to somebody, because there was a time
Speaker 3: where flags were our communication. So when a ship came
Speaker 3: into port and you're expecting somebody to be on that ship,
Speaker 3: if you saw their flag at half mast mask on
Speaker 3: a ship, you knew somebody had passed away. If it
Speaker 3: was flying upside down, you know that that ship was
Speaker 3: in trouble or distress.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, you'd have to know a little bit about
Speaker 2: the flag that you're looking at.
Speaker 3: Correct right, And then some flags they look the same
Speaker 3: right side, right side up or upside down.
Speaker 2: Oh no, what do you do?
Speaker 3: There'd be in trouble.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so what does it mean in the Hawaiian
Speaker 2: flag if it's flown upside.
Speaker 3: Down, Well, that is a sign of distress, and some
Speaker 3: people in Hawaii do flat upside down as a sign
Speaker 3: of protests.
Speaker 2: I found it fascinating that we were told by guides like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, if you look at the flag this way,
Speaker 2: and I thought that was a pretty powerful statement. It's
Speaker 2: funny that the flag is demands a certain kind of
Speaker 2: respect and that the people can talk back to authority
Speaker 2: by using the signal of the authority itself.
Speaker 3: You know, So there is some protests, I mean there
Speaker 3: have been that, there has been a sovereignty move in Hawaii,
Speaker 3: and currently there is actually a antied development movement in
Speaker 3: some locations of Hawaiian So they'll fly the flag upside
Speaker 3: down as a protest.
Speaker 2: So inverting a flag has long been a statement by
Speaker 2: indigenous populations, and a Lakota activist, Russell Means, once said
Speaker 2: an upside down flag is an international sign of distress.
Speaker 2: Now we the Indian nations are in distress. I will
Speaker 2: wear this flag upside down as long as my people
Speaker 2: are in distress. Tori says, you can fly the Hawaiian
Speaker 2: Royal standard flag upside down instead of the Hawaiian flag
Speaker 2: if say you're supporting the Hawaiian sovereignty movement or protesting
Speaker 2: the building of the thirty meter telescope on top of
Speaker 2: a sacred volcanic summit. Remember, Tory is a gentle soul
Speaker 2: who respects etiquette, but protests aren't necessarily supposed to tiptoe
Speaker 2: around the feelings of the oppressors. Now, if you're going
Speaker 2: to piss someone off of a flag, you got to
Speaker 2: make it a real burn. Ooh which reminds me if
Speaker 2: you burn the flag, will you get thrown in jail.
Speaker 3: So you can burn the flag on the first Amendment,
Speaker 3: but you may also burn a flag to dispose of it.
Speaker 3: So there are a couple of ways of disposing a flag.
Speaker 3: So when a flag is tattered or worn so it
Speaker 3: is a rectangle, and when the ends freight, you can
Speaker 3: you know, hem it so you can get some more
Speaker 3: life out of it. But when it starts really falling apart,
Speaker 3: the color is really fade, you can cut it up
Speaker 3: so it's no longer flag. You know, you cut out
Speaker 3: the canton so it's just the stripes and you just
Speaker 3: cut up into little pieces. Then you can throw it
Speaker 3: away because it's no longer flag, or you can ceremoniously
Speaker 3: burn it. And so I know a lot of veterans
Speaker 3: groups and a few scout groups that will do it.
Speaker 3: So if you have your you know, you take your
Speaker 3: flag to your local flag shop. They may be able
Speaker 3: to give it to somebody and it's usually folded and
Speaker 3: then placed on a fire.
Speaker 2: Oh, I was thinking you just toss it in like
Speaker 2: an old bath towel, but that makes more sense that
Speaker 2: you would do it more ceremoniously.
Speaker 3: Because it is it is a national symbol, so you
Speaker 3: can treat it with signs of respect and even the
Speaker 3: touching the ground. I mean, okay, if you're somewhere and
Speaker 3: a flag falls down, you didn't mean for that, that's okay,
Speaker 3: But you know you don't want to drag the flag
Speaker 3: on the ground purposefully. You know you want to take
Speaker 3: care of this national symbol because you have to remember time.
Speaker 3: I mean, we use the term flag, but they're also
Speaker 3: known as standards, are colors. So when you were in
Speaker 3: a unit or you went to battle, it's not like
Speaker 3: you had like you know, you didn't go to their
Speaker 3: flagstore and buy twenty flags. No, you had a flag.
Speaker 3: You had your color guard who would protect the colors
Speaker 3: along with the color bearer or the color sergeant. And
Speaker 3: that was your rallying pointer nationals or your symbol of
Speaker 3: your unit or your nation. So that was your one flag.
Speaker 3: You didn't have lots of flags going around, Okay.
Speaker 2: So side note, Back in the day, wars would be
Speaker 2: won or lost based on the flag, Like if someone
Speaker 2: snatched your flag, you lost a war. Hence the game
Speaker 2: Capture the Flag. So if you're a person who's like
Speaker 2: let's just be a fabric. Everyone just chill out. I
Speaker 2: e me Ali Ward. I guess you have to see
Speaker 2: it in the context of a bunch of dead people
Speaker 2: to whom these colorful tablecloths meant they had new overlords.
Speaker 2: And now what do you think of people who put
Speaker 2: American flags on their cars? Around fourth of July or
Speaker 2: after September eleventh? Did you ever see that? Did you
Speaker 2: guys have that here?
Speaker 3: Yes? Why not do that more often?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm wondering about that. I mean, this is a
Speaker 2: side note, super side note. But around after September eleventh,
Speaker 2: I remember I did road trip and I happened to
Speaker 2: go to Las Vegas to meet up with some people
Speaker 2: from work. Aside the point, I kept seeing these flags
Speaker 2: on the side of the road and tumbleweeds, and so
Speaker 2: I started to pull over and get them because I
Speaker 2: thought it was so interesting that they were just being
Speaker 2: shed from cars like this Patriotism was kind of sluffing.
Speaker 3: Off, fell off the car, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2: And so I would see one up ahead, I'd see
Speaker 2: the red in a bush or a tumbleweed, and i'd
Speaker 2: I had a meod at the time, and it'd screwed
Speaker 2: so dangerous and then I'd go out and i'd grab
Speaker 2: the flag, and then I had a sharpie and I
Speaker 2: would mark where I got it from and the date,
Speaker 2: and then I would roll it up and put it
Speaker 2: all together. And I did it. It's been it's been
Speaker 2: eighteen years since September eleventh, and I think I have
Speaker 2: like fifty or one hundred flags. Then they're from all
Speaker 2: over the country from just driving and being like, oh
Speaker 2: there's one, and I've missed so many because it would
Speaker 2: have been.
Speaker 3: So you're axologist.
Speaker 2: I like, it's like I'm a vexillologists and I want
Speaker 2: to put them up somewhere. But it's interesting to me
Speaker 2: how they're different textures, different amounts of tattered. But I
Speaker 2: wondered how a vexillologist felt about automotive ones if they're
Speaker 2: prone to falling off. Is that like, yay, you're flying
Speaker 2: it or oh no, you're endangering it.
Speaker 3: Well, do you like having a flag on a car?
Speaker 3: And you know there are those devices that you can
Speaker 3: clip to your window, but there is also there's actually
Speaker 3: a protocol for attaching it to vehicles.
Speaker 2: Really what is it?
Speaker 3: So you don't see it too often anymore, But there
Speaker 3: was the time where you'd actually have a post physically
Speaker 3: mounted to like the front bumper of your car, and
Speaker 3: so it's very very secure, and the flag would be
Speaker 3: on there, and the flag is not just stable, it's
Speaker 3: actually well attached to the post. And then you could
Speaker 3: drive around with the flag on the.
Speaker 2: Vehicle, almost like a presidential motorcade situation. Correct. I feel
Speaker 2: like that's the only time I've seen one like that,
Speaker 2: is like on a presidential limousine, and.
Speaker 3: I have seated on like flag officers.
Speaker 2: Let's switch gears from automotive flags to global ones. Guess
Speaker 2: how many countries are in the world. Before I Google
Speaker 2: this today, I was like one thousand, four million. I
Speaker 2: had no idea there are one hundred and ninety five,
Speaker 2: which means there are one hundred and nine country flags
Speaker 2: you can memorize to impress people. My nephew did this,
Speaker 2: he was seven. We were all very impressed. Now, what
Speaker 2: do you do if you don't have a brain as
Speaker 2: sharp as a seven year old? I bet that there
Speaker 2: are flash cards where you can flash a card and
Speaker 2: have to guess. There's got to be a There got
Speaker 2: to be a parlor.
Speaker 3: Game there that was more common in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3: You'd have like member of secret cards mm hmm, And
Speaker 3: so you'd have secret cards that's flags on them, and
Speaker 3: just so you could carry these around and think, oh,
Speaker 3: I know what that flag looks likegger, I know what
Speaker 3: this flag looks blagger.
Speaker 2: It's back in the it back in the day. I
Speaker 2: think there's got to be a parlor game. Did I
Speaker 2: look this up? Of course? Is there? One? Of course?
Speaker 2: Flags of the World is a board game you can
Speaker 2: play guessing the flappers of countries and the game. Captain
Speaker 2: on YouTube provided a twenty five minute video tutorial and
Speaker 2: a review. So the first who says over ninety percent
Speaker 2: of the population or Albanians in this country which lies
Speaker 2: north of Macedonia, is it correct? So if you want
Speaker 2: to get good at flags, get your mits on Flags
Speaker 2: in the World. I did notice that it's for people
Speaker 2: eight years and up. And I'm sure that my seven
Speaker 2: year old nephew would kick all of our asses and
Speaker 2: just hand them back to us on a platter and
Speaker 2: we would be impressed. Did you ever play flag football?
Speaker 3: I did play flag football.
Speaker 2: Were you like, I'm only using American and Hawaiian flags?
Speaker 3: Well, you have to remember it when the term flag
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be these these symbols. It can also mutilitarian,
Speaker 3: you know, like flag, football, sprinkler flags, a checkered flag,
Speaker 3: they have other meanings. And the more utilitarian semil four flags.
Speaker 2: What about uh surrender flags?
Speaker 3: That's more of an utilitarian tool because it didn't stand
Speaker 3: for anybody. If it's the white flag?
Speaker 2: Was that just someone taking gauze off?
Speaker 3: And could be anything? I mean, you know, if you
Speaker 3: have to surrender, you use whatever you have.
Speaker 2: If someone take their underpants off, I got a wave
Speaker 2: something here? Can I ask you questions from listeners?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: Okay, but before we unfurl your questions, a few words
Speaker 2: from sponsors of the show, who make it possible to
Speaker 2: make a donation to a charity of each ologists choosing,
Speaker 2: and this week Tori said he'll go with Connecting to
Speaker 2: Collections Care, a program under the American Institute for Conservation
Speaker 2: that provides resources to those individuals and institutions working with
Speaker 2: collections and it helps smaller cultural institutions provide well informed
Speaker 2: care for valuable collections. So it's supported by the Foundation
Speaker 2: for Advancement in Conservation, which seeks to increase understanding of
Speaker 2: our global cultural heritage, and that donation is made possible
Speaker 2: by the following sponsors that I like very much. There'll
Speaker 2: be a link in the show notes to that nonprofit
Speaker 2: and to the sponsors. Okay, onto your flag inquiries. Okay,
Speaker 2: so exciting, one hundred and five questions about flags. People
Speaker 2: have been wanting this one for a while. Jack asked,
Speaker 2: Isle of Man, what's going on there? I have no
Speaker 2: idea what he's talking about.
Speaker 3: The Isle of Man, I believe, is the only flag
Speaker 3: with a triscal It's a three extended device on a
Speaker 3: field of red.
Speaker 2: A three extended device, like.
Speaker 3: How you have across would be four extensions. They actually
Speaker 3: have three extensions. I'm trying to mur it if it's
Speaker 3: arms or legs.
Speaker 2: How did they get permission to do that?
Speaker 3: I believe it goes back to heraldry, because those limbs
Speaker 3: are our a heraldic device.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I was like, fuck is this flag?
Speaker 2: So I looked it up and the Isle of Man
Speaker 2: is an island right smack between Ireland and England, just
Speaker 2: floating between them like an only child of a divorced couple.
Speaker 2: And according to our friend Workerpedia, it is a self
Speaker 2: governing British Crown dependency, so its flag is red with
Speaker 2: three armored Knight's legs smack in the middle, just like
Speaker 2: a wheel of disembodied legs that have found each other
Speaker 2: and formed a new, terrifying entity that loves jogging. But
Speaker 2: just when you think that's weird, like a human centipede
Speaker 2: made of robo legs, you get a gander at Cicily's flag,
Speaker 2: which is the same leg configuration, but naked and with
Speaker 2: a face in the middle that looks like if Barbie
Speaker 2: got stoned and went to olive Garden. They also tossed
Speaker 2: in a pair of angel winks and some leafy dongs.
Speaker 2: You thought flags were boring, didn't you. Hell no, people
Speaker 2: at them on fire, They die for them. They have
Speaker 2: grassy looking dicks on them. So many of you wanted
Speaker 2: to know why they even exist, like, for example, Tarin Fernanz,
Speaker 2: Jack Steph, Julie Bear, Heather Deckle, Erica, Ellen Vossakiel Holly Andrews,
Speaker 2: Deli Dames, and jam Cruise. First time question asker says,
Speaker 2: was there a specific moment when flags became a thing
Speaker 2: for every country?
Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question because I would say flags
Speaker 3: and its use I mean go back to like Babylonia,
Speaker 3: m HM and the Romans use them, okay, in different
Speaker 3: styles and different ways in penance and gonfalons as we use.
Speaker 3: But I think probably this is my opinion. You know,
Speaker 3: with the United Nations, the League of Nations or the
Speaker 3: United Nations, and then the Olympics is where you really
Speaker 3: needed something to rally behind politically, not necessarily for military.
Speaker 3: So I think flags really became a more popular and
Speaker 3: more visible. And it's at the Olympics where you actually
Speaker 3: saw a duplication. Like there would be times where the
Speaker 3: country would have almost the same flag, oh sometimes the
Speaker 3: same color in the state, and so what do you do?
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, you show up at the party
Speaker 3: with the same dress. What do you do?
Speaker 2: Same gown as the oscars? You gotta change it? Now?
Speaker 2: Is that your favorite part of the Olympics. Are you
Speaker 2: there for the open cermony?
Speaker 3: I like the opening ceremonies?
Speaker 2: Okay, mark your calendars for July twenty fourth, twenty twenty
Speaker 2: Opening ceremonies, Summer Olympics, Tokyo, Japan. Flag of Palooza. There
Speaker 2: will be a quiz. Hadley wants to know did you
Speaker 2: love the fun with flag segment? On the Big Bank Theory,
Speaker 2: It's called fun with flags.
Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. It could have been expanded and it
Speaker 3: you know, we've been doing that for a while. So yes,
Speaker 3: the fund with flags, this was enjoyable.
Speaker 2: Zaan Lee Bradley, Oh, hi Hadley, I know, I was like,
Speaker 2: I just realized that Hadley Hadley works at the Bishop
Speaker 2: Museum in Hawaii. Introduce me to Tory. She is a peach now.
Speaker 2: The next topic was also on the mines of patrons
Speaker 2: Megan King and Aviva Elizabeth Zane Liebram wants to know
Speaker 2: are there any vessels out there that still fly the
Speaker 2: black Jolly Roger flag? And yes, why do they do it?
Speaker 2: What is it?
Speaker 3: Okay, so there are there are different So people think
Speaker 3: of the Jolly Roger as the one, and I've actually
Speaker 3: seen a Molly Roger. Oh so it's actually a kind
Speaker 3: of nine tails and the skull has lipstick on it.
Speaker 3: Modern modern doesign it came with the Molly Roger. But
Speaker 3: you have these pirate flags and they were slightly different,
Speaker 3: like I think Edward Teach had like a skeleton and
Speaker 3: a heart and so they actually had meetings, but they
Speaker 3: were the black flag of the pirates and not to
Speaker 3: endorse piracy. But you know, there are those pirate ships
Speaker 3: that you can go on parties on, they do fly
Speaker 3: the pirate flag.
Speaker 2: And why did they have that? Jolly Roger was that
Speaker 2: just like a oh shit, we're here and we're going
Speaker 2: to mess your stuff up, so watch out everyone.
Speaker 3: Well that that was the way that ships communicated with
Speaker 3: each other, and so sometimes a ship would fly a
Speaker 3: false flag to get in close, and when they attacked,
Speaker 3: then they would fly up whatever flag that they're flying under.
Speaker 3: So private cheers, remember privateers were the legal pirates, and
Speaker 3: then you had pirates.
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that privateers were legal pirates.
Speaker 3: So a pirate would be raiding other ships, and a
Speaker 3: private cheer was somebody waiting for their country under they
Speaker 3: were sanctioned.
Speaker 2: Ugh, so then they were just thieves and then they
Speaker 2: were like, I'm thieves for my country.
Speaker 3: Wow, privateers.
Speaker 2: So what do you think of false flag conspiracy theories?
Speaker 3: False flag conspiracy theory, Oh, I'll.
Speaker 2: Put it aside here. Some people think that some tragedies
Speaker 2: are inside jobs, like, for example, the fleshy embodiment of
Speaker 2: human conflict. Infra warr's host Alex Jones for a long
Speaker 2: time denied that mass shootings such as Sandy Hook were real,
Speaker 2: saying it was quote a giant hoax. Now, he has
Speaker 2: since admitted in a deposition that those assertions were quote
Speaker 2: a foremost psychosis where I basically thought everything was staged,
Speaker 2: even though I'm learning a lot of things aren't staged. Quote. Now,
Speaker 2: the term false flags comes from pirate ships flying other
Speaker 2: countries flags during attacks and that misled their victims in
Speaker 2: terms of like who's to blame for this? But pirates
Speaker 2: and conspiracy theorists aside. Some false flags apparently have totally existed.
Speaker 2: The conflict that led US into the Vietnam War, the
Speaker 2: Gulf of Tonkin conflict in the mid sixties that was
Speaker 2: used to justify the US involvement the Vietnam War. Turns
Speaker 2: out part of that attack on US naval ships was
Speaker 2: an outright fabrication. Now a less super serious issue. How
Speaker 2: ugly are city flags? Again? Roman Mars ted talk illuminating
Speaker 2: as hell. It made me look up the LA city flag,
Speaker 2: which features these zigzag bands of color. There's green, gold,
Speaker 2: and red with the city seal just plunked right in
Speaker 2: the middle. Now, in a twenty fifteen Timeout article titled
Speaker 2: quote we need to talk about the Los Angeles city flag,
Speaker 2: This flag was described as a Rastafarian clip art nightmare.
Speaker 2: Can we switch it up? I wondered, kenn a city
Speaker 2: built on a culture of before and after photos, change
Speaker 2: its flag. I am not the only concerned citizen with
Speaker 2: this question, as patrons including Saratary, Jessica frizz Ezra, Carolynchmikeen,
Speaker 2: Dorian Gray, Megan MacLean, Christopher Rojo, Leanna Ira Gray, and
Speaker 2: Todd Peterson all wanted to know. Schmitty Smith wants to
Speaker 2: know how best should folks go about trying to update
Speaker 2: a bad city flag? Are grassroots movements like the People's
Speaker 2: Flag of Milwaukee common.
Speaker 3: Well, I actually have a listing of American city flags,
Speaker 3: and there was a Ted talk a while ago, and
Speaker 3: I got a few flag queries about my city flags Orr,
Speaker 3: I work, and I have to say, there are a
Speaker 3: few cities that actually have changed their flags, really yes,
Speaker 3: and so I have heard of. I believe Sacramento was
Speaker 3: one that with the last few years where they actually
Speaker 3: change the city flag and they have a contest. And
Speaker 3: surprisingly there are a lot of contests that go back
Speaker 3: to these flags, even for one hundred or so years,
Speaker 3: to have contests to submit designs and then they get
Speaker 3: reviewed and approved. And so yes, you could go about
Speaker 3: changing your city flag or municipality or locality. If some
Speaker 3: of them don't have any, so you could propose one.
Speaker 3: And I so you go before your your local council
Speaker 3: or committee and propose a flag.
Speaker 2: Make some noise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the Honolul flag is one of those that
Speaker 3: was considered not so nice because they just took the
Speaker 3: city seal and they took on a field of yellow.
Speaker 3: But specifically it's you leave me a yellowcal that's this
Speaker 3: island flower. But you know, you could do something else
Speaker 3: like use maybe some heraldic device or if there's there's
Speaker 3: a landmark or a bird or a flower, and incorporate
Speaker 3: that into your flag. And I have to agree with
Speaker 3: some of the people on that Ted talks to say,
Speaker 3: if you're going to put text on your flag, it's
Speaker 3: probably not a great flag.
Speaker 2: Oh good, good call. You know you should be able
Speaker 2: to say it in imagery.
Speaker 3: Perhaps, right the iconography of.
Speaker 2: An iconography call. There's a show called Community and they
Speaker 2: had a flag made for their school but it looked
Speaker 2: like an asterisk. But it wasn't well received. I've heard
Speaker 2: of the show, yes, no, yeah, it features a large
Speaker 2: pink asterisk. It looks like this is classic Greendale. A
Speaker 2: place deserves an AINUS flag. Natalie cruz Aguayo asks how
Speaker 2: do you feel about the current kneeling versus standing for
Speaker 2: the flag debate in the US, and how do you
Speaker 2: personally believe that flag should be respected.
Speaker 3: I believe the flag should be respected him because it
Speaker 3: is the US flag is our national symbol, so I
Speaker 3: mean we should respect it. If you're in the military,
Speaker 3: you render honors or salute. I try and stand whenever
Speaker 3: it is and you should face either the flag or
Speaker 3: where the music is coming from. The civilian salute is
Speaker 3: to hand over your heart or take off your hat.
Speaker 3: But I think a respect should be given to the flag.
Speaker 3: It is our national symbol, so there are other ways
Speaker 3: of expressing other actions. At least for our national symbol,
Speaker 3: wheel should stand behind.
Speaker 2: Different people have different views on this. In America, some
Speaker 2: people feel that the flag has been kind of reappropriated
Speaker 2: as a symbol of nationalism and a nostalgia for a
Speaker 2: time when people had fewer personal freedoms. So I think
Speaker 2: to use it to amplify the voices of people seeking
Speaker 2: the freedom this nation was founded on is a respectful
Speaker 2: means to You may disagree, that's okay too. Anyway, I
Speaker 2: changed the subject to hands overhearts, specifically mine I have.
Speaker 2: I got my hand stuck in an escalator when I
Speaker 2: was four, and I have terrible scars in my right hand,
Speaker 2: and it's fine now, but at the time, I was
Speaker 2: like pretty stoked that. I was like, I always knew
Speaker 2: which hand to put over my heart because I was
Speaker 2: like four, So I was like, which one do I
Speaker 2: put And I was like, yeah, that's the one with
Speaker 2: the scars, And so then I could always tell my
Speaker 2: hands apart it was. I wouldn't recommend getting your hand
Speaker 2: stuck in an escalator, though there are better ways of
Speaker 2: figuring it out. Let me see. Uh ooh. Ashley Herbal
Speaker 2: has a great question with space exploration expanding, should we
Speaker 2: have an official Earth flag to represent ourselves when we
Speaker 2: find other life?
Speaker 3: There are Earth flags, so what are they? There are
Speaker 3: actually several. There hasn't been one that's been approved or
Speaker 3: recognized by everyone.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: There are like SETI flags, and then there's like you
Speaker 3: have the Earth Day flag, which has the picture of
Speaker 3: the Earth on it. There's another one I like, which
Speaker 3: is actually developed in the US where you actually just
Speaker 3: have an arc of yellow that represents the Sun and
Speaker 3: then like little dots for the planets, and then the
Speaker 3: large one that represents the Earth. And so there are
Speaker 3: other science flags out there. Some of them are geometric
Speaker 3: patterns with different colors to represent the arrangement of Earth
Speaker 3: in the Solar System. But now there are kinetary flags
Speaker 3: out there already.
Speaker 2: Now do you fly them on Earth Day? Do you
Speaker 2: fly an Earthway flag?
Speaker 3: So I have one of these science Earth flags and
Speaker 3: I will fly it on days related to science.
Speaker 2: Really, like what are their science days? Are they? Oh?
Speaker 3: I I'm trying to remember there was there was a
Speaker 3: walk for science. I think I think maybe if I
Speaker 3: had Madame Curie's birthday, or maybe when the Nobel Wards
Speaker 3: go out, or maybe when the Voyager pro anniversary or
Speaker 3: something like that, I'd fly that flag.
Speaker 2: Man, I'm just gonna I'm gonna start having to get flags. Now.
Speaker 2: Did you know that National Moth Week is the last
Speaker 2: week of July, Because now you do. I just went
Speaker 2: to see if there are any moth themed flags out there,
Speaker 2: and sadly no, But it does seem the perfect time
Speaker 2: to fly a woolen flag that's been moth eaten, a
Speaker 2: moth buffet of freedom and fibers. Meredith, what we wants
Speaker 2: to know is there any significance in countries that have
Speaker 2: flags of the similar patterns and same colors but in
Speaker 2: different order, like France versus Paraguay, Belgium versus Germany, et cetera.
Speaker 3: Well, you have a lot of those we could say
Speaker 3: old world flags where they really are established and basing
Speaker 3: on national colors, so they're very, very simple. And so
Speaker 3: those are older flags as opposed to some of the
Speaker 3: modern flags where you have a little more iconography on
Speaker 3: or modern iconography. So you have like the Scandinavian cross,
Speaker 3: like all the countries of Scandinavia, it's that same cross
Speaker 3: pattern in different colors.
Speaker 2: So side note, why do so many Scandinavian countries have
Speaker 2: that Nordic cross motif? I was like, hmm, there's gonna
Speaker 2: be some old good Viking shit like maybe where the
Speaker 2: land intersex with the sea, or like the latitude of
Speaker 2: the summer sun. But now it's just a straight up
Speaker 2: Christianity symbol. So what about flags that look like Neapolitan
Speaker 2: ice cream?
Speaker 3: You know, it's like the tricolor of the French tricolor
Speaker 3: I mean you have you know, Ireland and Italy. It's
Speaker 3: it's basically using national colors just on a flag.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so it's just kind of like, hey, we're.
Speaker 3: Cousins a little bit, or the flags are old enough.
Speaker 3: We just needed we just needed a couple of colors
Speaker 3: on it.
Speaker 2: Back then, back of the day.
Speaker 3: We just needed one or two colors on the flag,
Speaker 3: and it was just one color or two colors.
Speaker 2: And Vendreda wants to note if you have a least
Speaker 2: favorite US state flag.
Speaker 3: A least favorite US state flag, well, there are a
Speaker 3: few that are just fields of blue with the coat
Speaker 3: of arms of the state on it and the date,
Speaker 3: and you know they're they're not as engaging as some
Speaker 3: of the more colorful ones with hidden iconography.
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to look this up, but I did
Speaker 2: on a whim. Holy shit, look up all the state
Speaker 2: flags in the United States. So many are a seal
Speaker 2: on a field of blue, like take a page out
Speaker 2: of ohig book makes something weird? Or Oregon. Oregon has
Speaker 2: a front and back there's a cartoon beaver chilling on
Speaker 2: a log on the back, just like New Mexico, a
Speaker 2: bright golden yellow with a red sun motif to honor
Speaker 2: Pueblo roots. Hell yeah, Marilyn's flag looks like a jumble
Speaker 2: of wallpaper swatches or a magic eye poster. But I
Speaker 2: respect the daring of it. Those are all dues, a don't.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at you, Mississippi with a Confederate flag in
Speaker 2: your canton. So, Mississippi's flag, dating back to eighteen ninety four,
Speaker 2: some have called state sanctioned hate speech, and it continues
Speaker 2: to fly. There's a Mississippi born artist, though, named Laurence Dennis,
Speaker 2: and she's proposed a new design. It's cleaner visually emotionally,
Speaker 2: but numerous bills to make it the new Mississippi Stave
Speaker 2: flag have failed. Mississippi, Can you do me a solid?
Speaker 2: Get this shit together? It's twenty nineteen, and says So.
Speaker 2: I recently found out that pledging allegiance to a flag
Speaker 2: is sort of an American thing, and as a kid,
Speaker 2: I always felt really weird doing it, and now I
Speaker 2: feel like a lot of other people do too, So
Speaker 2: I don't feel so weird essentially, in terms of flag history,
Speaker 2: especially globally, Are there any other countries that pledge allegiance
Speaker 2: to a flag?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question. I do know other national anthems,
Speaker 3: some with words, some without words. M some a little
Speaker 3: more long, some a little short. I'm not familiar with
Speaker 3: other pledges ps.
Speaker 2: You know the under God part that was added much later.
Speaker 2: You can thank President Dwight Eisenhower, who just wanted to
Speaker 2: toss it in because he thought it would freak out communists.
Speaker 2: That's a fun thing to talk about at dinner with
Speaker 2: your new girlfriend's parents. Get into it. A few people
Speaker 2: asked where's the purple? Those people's names, I will now
Speaker 2: say with my mouth they are Jack, Helen Roussette, and Samanthy.
Speaker 2: Why aren't there more? Why is there a lack of purple,
Speaker 2: asked Samantha e in flags.
Speaker 3: Well, remember purple was the royal color, and so how
Speaker 3: many monarchies do we have or runny of.
Speaker 2: The country, so it still would be a symbol of royalty.
Speaker 3: Yes, you go to a ren fair and you're wearing purple,
Speaker 3: the queen might pick on you.
Speaker 2: Really, yes, because you should not be wearing that purple.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, good to know the royal color. I
Speaker 2: don't want to get hazed by a renfair queen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that sounds like a nightmare. She might have your head
Speaker 2: on a stick, or throw pepsi on you not to
Speaker 2: get your leg I know, quick aside, why was purple
Speaker 2: such a royal color? Well, because it was expensive as hell.
Speaker 2: It was gathered from mollusk shells, so Queen Elizabeth I
Speaker 2: first wouldn't even allow non royals to wear it. Now,
Speaker 2: one flag that's purple is the Native American and First
Speaker 2: Nation Iroquois Confederacy, and it features a string of four
Speaker 2: boxes with a tree in the middle, and it's flown
Speaker 2: to represent unity with other tribes. Now why is it purple?
Speaker 2: Also mollusks? It's based off a wampum belt made from
Speaker 2: shell beads. Now, vexillology, malacology all up in each other's history.
Speaker 2: Conchology is a study of shells. Should I do it? Shell?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Also side note, Iroquois is a name given to the
Speaker 2: tribe by colonists, but they call themselves the Hoda Nishone,
Speaker 2: which is way more beautifuler word. Now, this next question
Speaker 2: is about a flag that looks like two triangle pennants
Speaker 2: on top of each other, just like gives no fucks
Speaker 2: about being a rectangle and instead represented mountains and later
Speaker 2: two prominent religions in the region. A bunch of people
Speaker 2: asked about it, including first time question asker Kelty's Laney
Speaker 2: Live Schaeffer, Todd Peterson, Sean McGregor, and Graham Tattersall. Zillard
Speaker 2: Glylai wants to know why is Nepal's flag so cool?
Speaker 3: That is a cool flags. So basically it looks like
Speaker 3: like dagged triangles. It's very very tall or long. Oh
Speaker 3: it's not square, okay, And so you know that that
Speaker 3: is a country where you have prayer flags or pennants
Speaker 3: being flying. So it's very similar to something you may
Speaker 3: have had previously before what's known as modern flags. So
Speaker 3: I opine that it could be an adaptation of that.
Speaker 2: Nathan Andrew Leeflight asked a question I feel like a
Speaker 2: lot of people probably have this question. A Viva Elizabeth
Speaker 2: also asked it, are there official guidelines for when to
Speaker 2: fly flags at half mass and who is empowered to
Speaker 2: make that decision?
Speaker 3: Yes, so there are guidelines. It's in the flag code,
Speaker 3: and there are specific days that you fly a flag
Speaker 3: at half mass like Memorial Day and then to fly
Speaker 3: a flag at half mass or half staff mass or
Speaker 3: ships and oh staffs are on ground have to come
Speaker 3: from executive order of the president, and so that would
Speaker 3: dictate all US flags in the country, and subsequently that
Speaker 3: would be state flags and municipality flags. Because the American
Speaker 3: flag is always the highest.
Speaker 2: How long are they supposed to stay down?
Speaker 3: That depends on the executive order. So the executive order
Speaker 3: that goes out would go for the time periods like
Speaker 3: usually a day or the weekend or a week. But
Speaker 3: for sitting politicians, I'd have to double check this. But
Speaker 3: I think if a president dies in office, flags are
Speaker 3: at half mass for thirty days. Wow, and then it
Speaker 3: goes down from there.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's if a president dies in office. Correct, What
Speaker 2: if the country's not sad about it?
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding, that's HiT's the joke, just kidding. But
Speaker 3: I could check the flag code. I did bring you
Speaker 3: with me.
Speaker 2: I kid, I kid. We all know that vice presidents
Speaker 2: are scarier. Anyway. Delhi Dames wants to know what's the
Speaker 2: oldest flag that you know of?
Speaker 3: The oldest flag I know of, Well, there are in existence.
Speaker 3: I don't know what an existence, but I do know
Speaker 3: that you know, in Babylon, Babylonia, they would have standards
Speaker 3: polls and they would have tablets on them, and then
Speaker 3: later on the Roman legions would have a staff and
Speaker 3: it may have streamers, but it have devices. So like
Speaker 3: how we have the eagle on the top of the flagpole,
Speaker 3: they may have an eagle or another bird or some
Speaker 3: other symbol that denoted that unit or that lead. The
Speaker 3: oldest flag in existence. I don't know what the old
Speaker 3: flaging existence is right now, but flags do go back
Speaker 3: to millennia.
Speaker 2: Dang, Hello Scotland. Your flag was established in the literal
Speaker 2: Dark Ages eighteen thirty two. To be exact, it's just
Speaker 2: a blue field with a big white X representing the
Speaker 2: crucified Saint Andrew Cherry pet Escanera wants to know who
Speaker 2: invented semi four codes? How is that done? Do you
Speaker 2: know anything about some force? You know?
Speaker 3: I learned semi four in boy Scouts?
Speaker 2: Oh you did, yes.
Speaker 3: So besides the Heraldy shop that my mom worked at,
Speaker 3: I was in the Boy Scouts and I was in
Speaker 3: the Civilar Portrol and I did enjoy being on color
Speaker 3: guard detail. So I don't know how far back semaphore
Speaker 3: goes I'm going to. I know they were very popular
Speaker 3: in the early twentieth century.
Speaker 2: A semaphore. Side note is when someone holds two flags
Speaker 2: moves them around to different positions to make different letters
Speaker 2: to spell out words. So just think you could destroy
Speaker 2: someone by signaling an F in a U, or you
Speaker 2: could make by adding an in fun fun with flags.
Speaker 3: And it's almost like reading a clock. And so depending
Speaker 3: on where the hands are, notate what the letter is.
Speaker 2: Is it like texting but with your arms?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And do you use like short codes or do you
Speaker 2: spell out everything?
Speaker 3: You would spell out words or clipped words. Sometimes you
Speaker 3: clip out you know, maybe a vowel or so. But
Speaker 3: so you'd cross the flags to start ascendence or a word,
Speaker 3: and then you'd spell out the word or the number
Speaker 3: or use a number sign and then you'd have the
Speaker 3: flags to end it. It's kind of morse code.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, was it hard to learn? How
Speaker 2: long to take you?
Speaker 3: I don't remember it. It was that was a while ago.
Speaker 3: I still have someone foresaid in my flag collection, though, do.
Speaker 2: You think if someone tried to semi for you a
Speaker 2: message you would be able to decode it?
Speaker 3: I'd probably only get SOS.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the most important one. It doesn't look like
Speaker 2: an SOS do flag nerds know each other.
Speaker 3: I know there's two others on the island. We do
Speaker 3: know each other. One actually owns a flag shop and
Speaker 3: the other one is a professor at a local university.
Speaker 2: Did you ever think that you could do this for
Speaker 2: part of your job?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: No, Now, what is something about flags that's annoying? Or
Speaker 2: what is a part of your job dealing with flags?
Speaker 2: It sucks?
Speaker 3: I get allow the repetitive questions. So it's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we have two or three flags, where do they go?
Speaker 3: It's like, it's okay, the American flag is always on
Speaker 3: its right, you know, the viewer's left. I want to
Speaker 3: put it. It goes on its right. It's just some
Speaker 3: of these very very basic things people ask me. And
Speaker 3: I do get upset when I do see flagpoles getting
Speaker 3: used for holding up banners or other signs, and.
Speaker 2: You're like, get that wind sock out of here. What
Speaker 2: is this fish wind sock on the flagpole?
Speaker 3: I don't want to see the banner promoting the festival
Speaker 3: on the weekend. Take it, put it on the side
Speaker 3: or something. Don't put it on the flag.
Speaker 2: Now, what is the thing that you love the most
Speaker 2: about your job or your life is of excellla just
Speaker 2: orble flags.
Speaker 3: It's just a bit of history and to recognize what's been,
Speaker 3: what's in the past, and use some kind of visible
Speaker 3: symbol to recognize those dates. And I have a good job.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: Do you think you have an old soul or were
Speaker 2: you born in the wrong era because you seem to
Speaker 2: have such a nod to in a flair for things vintage.
Speaker 2: Do you ever feel like maybe you're a ghost that
Speaker 2: was born into modern times?
Speaker 3: That has been said of me. I've been working in
Speaker 3: the museum field over twenty five years now, so I
Speaker 3: did work at one site where we did living history,
Speaker 3: and so yes I am. I'm not a strain. You're
Speaker 3: too living history or a period clothing, particularly the nineteenth century,
Speaker 3: and I do enjoy a good period history event, and
Speaker 3: you know, it's a more gentler time with etiquette and protocol.
Speaker 2: Do you think in the future we're just going to
Speaker 2: use space holograms for flags?
Speaker 3: I don't know about holograms, but you know how retro
Speaker 3: is becoming more popular, maybe where we're going to go,
Speaker 3: maybe we'll regress a little bit.
Speaker 2: I love that you're keeping the past alive by continuing
Speaker 2: to make it cool because you're cool. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for doing this. I loved this so ask well
Speaker 2: dressed and informed people stupid questions. Because there's weird trivia
Speaker 2: flying right over our heads all the time, you might
Speaker 2: as well ask about it. We're all gonna die. Go forward,
Speaker 2: ask questions now. For more info on flags, nava dot org.
Speaker 2: Nava dot org is a great resource. You can find
Speaker 2: a local vexillological club. Let your nerd flag fly. We
Speaker 2: are at Ologies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm Ali Ward
Speaker 2: with one l on both. Links to all of that,
Speaker 2: plus the cause of the week and sponsors are always
Speaker 2: in the show notes. Ologies merch is available at allergiesmarch
Speaker 2: dot com, including some new stickers. Hot damn Yes we
Speaker 2: have stickers. Thank you Bonnie Dutch and Shannon Feltas for
Speaker 2: managing that. Thanks to Aaron Talbert and Hannah Lippo for
Speaker 2: admin the wonderful Ologies Facebook group. Hello to the Ologies
Speaker 2: podcast sub editors out there too. Thank you Assistant editor
Speaker 2: Jared Sleeper of the mental health podcast Make Good, Bad Brain,
Speaker 2: and of course the jolliest of the rogers, Stephen Ray
Speaker 2: Morris for Betsy rossing all the pieces together each week.
Speaker 2: Stephen also hosts the per cast about Kiddies and c
Speaker 2: Jurassic Right About Dino's, both wonderful podcasts. Nick Thorburn wrote
Speaker 2: and performed the theme music. He's in the band Islands,
Speaker 2: which is a very good band. Now, if you stick
Speaker 2: around to the end of the episode, you know I
Speaker 2: tell you secrets, And this week's secret is that this
Speaker 2: episode was so hard to make. There's so much political
Speaker 2: history and colonist bullshit and painful stuff when it comes
Speaker 2: to something that seems just as simple as flags. And
Speaker 2: so thanks for waiting an extra week for this. I'm
Speaker 2: recording this actually on the morning of my parents' fiftieth anniversary.
Speaker 2: We're going to go celebrate it, and I'm down in
Speaker 2: their downstairs recording it really quick to send to Stephen,
Speaker 2: and then I'm taking the rest of the weekend off
Speaker 2: to celebrate with them. And the other secret I will
Speaker 2: tell you is that I moved into a new house
Speaker 2: about four months ago and I have not yet bought
Speaker 2: a garbage can. I've just been hanging a garbage bag
Speaker 2: from a cabinet knob for four months. I keep meaning
Speaker 2: to go to bed, bath and beyond and just blow
Speaker 2: through the stack of coupons I've been hoarding, so I
Speaker 2: swear I will do that this week. Probably Also, y'all,
Speaker 2: I feel like I've told you this, but those bed
Speaker 2: Bath and Beyond coupons they don't really expire, So just
Speaker 2: take yours out of your neighbor's trash, put them in
Speaker 2: your glump compartment. That way you're like, oh, I got
Speaker 2: to stop there. Use them whenever you want twenty percent off.
Speaker 2: You guys, I'm here to help. Okay. Next week a
Speaker 2: chemistry episode that draws on the spells of Harry Potter.
Speaker 2: Potterrology is up next week. Are you ready for it?
Speaker 2: Probably not? It's good a rule, okay for bide pack adermatology, mombiology,
Speaker 2: doe zoology, lithology and technology, meteorologyology, tathology, seriology, pylenology. Today
Speaker 2: we are going to review and show you how to
Speaker 2: play Flags of the World.