Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of JavaScript Jabber.
Speaker 1: I am Steve Edwards, a host with the face for
Speaker 1: radio and the voice for being your mind. Amine, excuse me,
Speaker 1: but I'm the host at least I am. Today with
Speaker 1: me on the panel, I have coming with us live
Speaker 1: from Tel Aviv, Israel, mister Dan Shapire.
Speaker 2: How are you doing, Dan, I'm doing well.
Speaker 3: I'm perfectly fine with you being my mind. I could
Speaker 3: use the mind.
Speaker 1: Yes, mine is a terrible thing to waste, as they
Speaker 1: used to say. So, how's weather in Tel Aviv? We
Speaker 1: always have to talk about this. It's still warm and hot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I don't know about lovely, but it is hot.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a.
Speaker 3: It's humid because we're on the Mediterranean's humunity too. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: but on the other hand, we've got the beach, so,
Speaker 3: you know, some of the nicer things that we have
Speaker 3: among the also lots of not so nice things we
Speaker 3: recently have. But that's a topic for a different discuss.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And coming as our special guest today is
Speaker 1: mister gunner Berger. How you doing Gunner? All right, I'm
Speaker 1: doing great. While these voice messages come on my phone,
Speaker 1: so we are here to talk today about vibe coding,
Speaker 1: that hot topic across the web and across the world
Speaker 1: these days, it's at least in the tech space. Before
Speaker 1: we get into the topic, Gunner, can you give us
Speaker 1: a little backgrounded on yourself?
Speaker 2: Sure, full background or vibe coding background or I'm.
Speaker 1: Whatever you deem relevant to the topic at hand.
Speaker 4: All right, sure, I'm I'm a true nerd, been a
Speaker 4: nerd for twenty plus years, been in tech industry for
Speaker 4: twenty plus years. First half my career is centered it traditional.
Speaker 4: It switched over about fifteen years ago. I was a
Speaker 4: Gartner analyst for a while. I covered in computing. It's
Speaker 4: worked Dan and I met.
Speaker 2: I went over to Citrics, was there for about six years.
Speaker 4: Have been currently now at Amazon. Been here about six
Speaker 4: years and I've been leading product in some form another.
Speaker 4: It constantly changes, but I've been doing some form of
Speaker 4: products for a while now. At CIDRICSS, I would say
Speaker 4: more new product initiatives and PI. I always kind of
Speaker 4: choked at our CEO, Mark Templeton would always have like
Speaker 4: and one more thing on stage at Synergy that's typically
Speaker 4: where the CTO department would have something to do with
Speaker 4: that and one more thing. So I did a lot
Speaker 4: of MPI mergency acquisitions, that kind of stuff at Citric
Speaker 4: and yeah, and I jumped over to product, which is
Speaker 4: where I've been ever since. Yeah, and so I'm I'm
Speaker 4: really interested in this topic because I think the definition
Speaker 4: of product manager or at Amazon we hire product PMT
Speaker 4: product manager technicals, and I lead a team of these professionals,
Speaker 4: and I think that that definition is changing rapidly because
Speaker 4: of what AI is empowering product managers to do. So Yeah,
Speaker 4: I thought it's really fun to have a conversation with
Speaker 4: technical people about this coming as kind of a I'm
Speaker 4: a nerd technical, but I'm definitely not like a developer technical.
Speaker 3: So I would like to add to that, Soner. If
Speaker 3: you recall, we kind of started talking about you coming
Speaker 3: on the show after I posted on X kind of
Speaker 3: a shout out inviting people who are involved with vibe
Speaker 3: coding in some form or shape to come on our
Speaker 3: show to talk about it. And about a month ago
Speaker 3: we had Anthony Compolo talking about vibe coding from the
Speaker 3: developer perspective. So I thought it would be great to
Speaker 3: have somebody coming at it from a different perspective. One
Speaker 3: of product management because I think again, looking at product
Speaker 3: managers in the company that I work at, Size Sense
Speaker 3: and other companies I talk to other people who are
Speaker 3: in product management, I do see it making a whole
Speaker 3: lot of impact. And I do think that one of
Speaker 3: the most impacted fields are developers and product people, but
Speaker 3: they're impacted in somewhat different ways, although there are a
Speaker 3: lot of similarities. So I thought your your take on this,
Speaker 3: your view, your point of view, would be very pertinent
Speaker 3: to our listeners.
Speaker 4: I think it's interesting that even I'm assuming your listeners
Speaker 4: are typical like in the development world, which is exactly
Speaker 4: kind of what I'm seeing happen within the product management worlds,
Speaker 4: Like those worlds are crossing more because it's almost like
Speaker 4: we spoke two different languages in the past, right, I
Speaker 4: speak the language the customer, and where I work we
Speaker 4: are very big writing culture, so I'm used to like
Speaker 4: great stories you go deep to the customer that world.
Speaker 4: But because of what this new technology has created, it's
Speaker 4: almost like having a translator with us at all times,
Speaker 4: where now I'm speaking developer language, even though I'm not right,
Speaker 4: I'm I'm vibing, and I think that has has massive
Speaker 4: change to how we approach building products.
Speaker 2: Uh, throughout the industry, and I think everyone.
Speaker 4: A conversation I've had with a lot of my you
Speaker 4: know buddies at work is if you had to start
Speaker 4: a new company today, would it look the same as
Speaker 4: if you did it five years ago? And I argued
Speaker 4: that it would not, like you know we have. I'm
Speaker 4: sure we'll talk about what is the role of junior devs?
Speaker 4: How do you get senior devs in a world where
Speaker 4: junior devs don't have a job anymore? Like, Uh, there's
Speaker 4: so many different directions we can come to this, but
Speaker 4: let me let me get one more dig in before
Speaker 4: you jumps some work. I do want to have like
Speaker 4: a legal note here.
Speaker 2: I'm Gunner. I'm just here talking about my experience.
Speaker 4: I in no way in speaking on behalf of my
Speaker 4: company at all, So please don't edit that boasts. Just
Speaker 4: make sure I'm required to have like a legal disclaimer
Speaker 4: that I'm speaking on behalf of myself and experience.
Speaker 2: I haven't product well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: We just got a response to our sweet on job
Speaker 1: script jabber from the head of AWS that said tell
Speaker 1: Gunner to be careful.
Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding turn go ahead, turning my back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have to say that it's it's essentially
Speaker 3: the same for us. We're all here talking on behalf
Speaker 3: of ourselves, not representing our employers. It's uh, you know,
Speaker 3: take our opinions for what they're worth.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: Interestingly, I recently spoke with one of our senior developer
Speaker 3: slash architects at size Sense, and he's one of the
Speaker 3: people that has really bought into AI. He's the one
Speaker 3: using up all the tokens in his development environment. And
Speaker 3: the way he talked about it is how he feels
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways like he is becoming kind
Speaker 3: of product working with a team of junior devs that
Speaker 3: he's instructing on what they should be doing doing and
Speaker 3: then critiquing their work.
Speaker 2: So it's it. It is very.
Speaker 3: Interesting that we are coming at it from different perspectives,
Speaker 3: but it seems that they are kind of converging on
Speaker 3: on on this kind of a central place. But again,
Speaker 3: I'll hand it over to you to get your opinion
Speaker 3: on this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's what is the output that a
Speaker 4: product manager should have these days? Like I still think
Speaker 4: the input is very much the same, Like you need
Speaker 4: to go deep with your customers, like be customer obsessed.
Speaker 4: Understand what the problem is that you're trying to solve.
Speaker 4: Like that's something that is still very firmly a product
Speaker 4: manager role.
Speaker 2: But then it's what's the output.
Speaker 4: Well, previously the output is you know, writing a PRD,
Speaker 4: you know, a business requirement doc, product requirement docs, product
Speaker 4: feature request, whatever, it's it's in the world that I
Speaker 4: live in, as always some form of a document that
Speaker 4: then we have some paperwork, right, and we have a meeting,
Speaker 4: and I have a meeting with you my head of
Speaker 4: engineering or you know, some SDEs whoever it is with
Speaker 4: someone on the development side, and we have conversations, they
Speaker 4: have questions. So then I go back and I modify
Speaker 4: my documented. Maybe I'm doing focus group testing. Maybe I
Speaker 4: have a UX team coming in and uh sharing you know,
Speaker 4: their perfection how this thing should look right, and just
Speaker 4: this is just how it works.
Speaker 2: This is you know, in the industry, that's just this
Speaker 2: is normal product manager one of one stuff.
Speaker 4: And so we spend weeks, if not months, in meetings
Speaker 4: and doc reviews and back and forth, back and forth,
Speaker 4: back and forth in what I like to call agile
Speaker 4: full because it's neither actual nor waterfall. But you're doing
Speaker 4: this over and over and over and over. Whereas that
Speaker 4: iteration changes, everything changes. When I can just go into
Speaker 4: a tool like Cursor, like Caro, like you know vs
Speaker 4: Code with some MCP's running, Like there's so many tools
Speaker 4: out there right now, I can go on a tool
Speaker 4: and literally.
Speaker 2: Just like bullet point my thoughts.
Speaker 4: It's like this is this is this, and then have
Speaker 4: that tool take my thoughts, stretch them out and either
Speaker 4: write me a better BRD that makes me think of,
Speaker 4: oh I didn't think about the yeah QA testing, I
Speaker 4: should have done that. Yeah, And it thinks about that
Speaker 4: for me just fantastic, because then I add more questions.
Speaker 4: Now I'm having this back and forth from a product
Speaker 4: manager perspective with the AI on what are the requirements? Like, fully,
Speaker 4: what am I? What am I missing? Just ask the
Speaker 4: prompt what am I missing? And it it's like, well,
Speaker 4: did you think, well this is this? So you have
Speaker 4: these better docs that are written in much much faster times.
Speaker 4: But and I think, more importantly, I don't need to
Speaker 4: generate a DOC.
Speaker 2: I still do.
Speaker 4: That's still kind of the expectation, but more often than not,
Speaker 4: I'm actually more interested in building a prototype, and you know,
Speaker 4: working in sandbox environments and saying, you know what, I
Speaker 4: have this idea, let's.
Speaker 2: Just run with it.
Speaker 4: And I don't have I don't need a code review,
Speaker 4: I don't need security all this kind of stuff because
Speaker 4: I'm not a developer, right, But now I can develop
Speaker 4: and I can actually show a working system to my
Speaker 4: development team, where now the handoff is not necessarily just
Speaker 4: a document, it is a working experience prototype that I vibed,
Speaker 4: and I think that's where things change. And then we
Speaker 4: have this whole question of like what does that mean
Speaker 4: for developers? How many developers you need? If you're able
Speaker 4: to do quick prototyping like it used to be, I
Speaker 4: would maybe write a one pager up, send it to
Speaker 4: a junior dev. The dev like whips up a prototype
Speaker 4: in a sprint. We look at the prototype like that's
Speaker 4: we're talking weeks of time down to an afternoon. For me,
Speaker 4: we're talking less communication errors because now I'm actually showing you,
Speaker 4: not just telling you. I've said this multiple times with
Speaker 4: never on a podcast. It's you know, there's this phrase
Speaker 4: that a picture it's worth a thousand words, but a
Speaker 4: prototype is worth a thousand meetings. Just showing me the
Speaker 4: thing that you're trying to build, and it shouldn't matter
Speaker 4: that the code is not that good, Like it doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: What matters from a product standpoint. It's because I'm not
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to say build it like this as
Speaker 4: far as like the code goes. I'm saying, build it
Speaker 4: like this because this is how I fundamentally want this
Speaker 4: thing to work.
Speaker 1: So are you saying then that it's a it's from
Speaker 1: a Okay, you're saying so the underlying code may not
Speaker 1: be what they want, but the UI, the appearance, the flow,
Speaker 1: this is what you're trying to give them. The idea
Speaker 1: is gives me. The ideas is the is the says,
Speaker 1: is it very close to what you want? As an
Speaker 1: end product ors? You'r I would assume this is just
Speaker 1: sort of okay, this is a general idea of what
Speaker 1: I'm looking for. It's not going to be you know,
Speaker 1: fit and finish isn't going to be there. It's just
Speaker 1: sort of a general, yeah, this is what I want
Speaker 1: it to do, so you can see it instead of
Speaker 1: me'b describe it on paper.
Speaker 4: That's just it. It depends. I would agree with what
Speaker 4: you said. The fit and finish doesn't necessarily have to
Speaker 4: be there. But at the same time, it depends how
Speaker 4: deep we go into using these AI agents.
Speaker 2: Okay, I gotta be someone careful.
Speaker 4: Let's just say there's an MCP that exists that has
Speaker 4: my UI framework built into it. Well, now my fit
Speaker 4: and finish is my fit and finish.
Speaker 2: Now is the code fit? I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm not intelligent enough to tell you if the code
Speaker 4: is right, but I can tell you that the fit
Speaker 4: and finish like the when I pull it up on.
Speaker 2: You know, a browser.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's actually what the end result should look like
Speaker 4: because I can use an AI that takes like a
Speaker 4: figma and turns it into working code that's public information,
Speaker 4: right doing taking advantage of these tools out there, Like now,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, like my UI is my UI,
Speaker 4: even though it maybe only took me an afternoon to
Speaker 4: do it, I actually have a rich UI using the components,
Speaker 4: using everything that I wanted to use. But again, I
Speaker 4: do want to draw a really firm line that I'm
Speaker 4: not saying that the actual code makes any sense.
Speaker 1: That right, for sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we get that, but the fit and finish might
Speaker 2: depending on the tools you're using.
Speaker 3: A few questions about that. So, first of all, I
Speaker 3: totally agree with you and understand the concept that the
Speaker 3: code is not production ready. For example, it might not
Speaker 3: be secure, it might have you know, it might not
Speaker 3: require our log in or anything. It just it just
Speaker 3: looks like, you know, there might not be issues like
Speaker 3: permissions and all this stuff, although you might actually vibe
Speaker 3: code some of that in order to show how that works,
Speaker 3: if that's part of what you're designing. I totally get that,
Speaker 3: and I totally agree with that. I am curious about
Speaker 3: some other aspects though. So first of all, how likely
Speaker 3: are you actually going to be to try to actually
Speaker 3: connect it to back end data versus just mocking some data?
Speaker 3: So that would be one question. Another question, you mentioned
Speaker 3: that you can take Figma designs, but will you actually
Speaker 3: even be waiting for the UX people to you have
Speaker 3: the designs ready or will you also kind of quote
Speaker 3: unquote jump the gun on them and say this is
Speaker 3: kind of I'm not like, I'm not a developer. I'm
Speaker 3: also not a UX expert, but this is kind of
Speaker 3: like how I envision it working. I don't know if
Speaker 3: this is the proper color scheme, if this is like
Speaker 3: it has accessibility and stuff like that. I just want
Speaker 3: to show you how I feel it should kind of look.
Speaker 3: So those are the two questions that I have.
Speaker 4: I come from a position of privilege here. I just
Speaker 4: want to be really clear about this. I have a
Speaker 4: UI framework, and in fact, I can pick from a
Speaker 4: set of UI frameworks that have a wonderful UX team
Speaker 4: behind them that are built on it. So your question
Speaker 4: of like as a product manager, when I just like, hey,
Speaker 4: this is how it works, honestly, like I would point
Speaker 4: it to an MCP of like, hey, using this framework,
Speaker 4: right to talk to this MVP about that framework, I
Speaker 4: can within a few minutes, I can have something like
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've messed with.
Speaker 2: Like lovable AI or these other ways.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of these guys out there where they
Speaker 4: can actually give you the fit and finish that is
Speaker 4: aligned to your standards. So even accessibility, this is actually
Speaker 4: one of that I'm glad you brought that up, Like
Speaker 4: that's a common one.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, well, you know, a product manager.
Speaker 4: Doesn't necessarily think about that because they're just thinking like
Speaker 4: the end customer problem is, Dan needs to talk to Steve,
Speaker 4: and this is how we got to make it work right,
Speaker 4: and they're not thinking about light mid dark mode and
Speaker 4: whatever else is going on within the Accessibility to I framework.
Speaker 4: But that's where I point to, like that may be
Speaker 4: true and how a product manager thinks today. It's like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm just going to solve this problem, but these tools
Speaker 4: make it so even though I'm not necessary to think
Speaker 4: about it, they're embedded into it. Even your comment Steve
Speaker 4: about security, if you're using the right tool, if you're
Speaker 4: using the right I don't want to call it prompt
Speaker 4: because they're like the prompts before the prompts, I forgot
Speaker 4: what they're called the rules.
Speaker 2: I think that's what they're rules.
Speaker 4: Like if you have the right rules in there is
Speaker 4: like and when you respond, like think about securities, think
Speaker 4: about this, think about that, like when you have those
Speaker 4: embedded in the background, even though I might not me
Speaker 4: thinking about it, which is what I love about it.
Speaker 4: By the way, it's like, I'm just thinking, I want
Speaker 4: to get Dan to talk to Steve using my new
Speaker 4: in semessenger app.
Speaker 2: I'm making it up.
Speaker 4: It's like cool, Okay, well I didn't think about this,
Speaker 4: that and the other, but it did. And that's where
Speaker 4: I was saying earlier is like where I used to
Speaker 4: write a BRD and I have to think about every
Speaker 4: single edge case scenario. Getting a meeting is like, Gunnard,
Speaker 4: did you think about this edge case?
Speaker 2: And then I get mad.
Speaker 4: It's like, my gosh, we're going to be naval gazing
Speaker 4: for the next four months about every edge case. Well,
Speaker 4: now I can throw it in here and it's it's
Speaker 4: got doing a very good job. Like these tools six
Speaker 4: months ago to today are just completely different as far
Speaker 4: as I'm concerned. Like I remember trying to do this
Speaker 4: about six months ago and I'm like copying and pasting
Speaker 4: stuff into like chat, GBT or Rock two five or
Speaker 4: whatever it was at the time.
Speaker 2: Now you know it's fully embedded.
Speaker 4: It's thinking the latest one that I'm very impressed with
Speaker 4: this amount of QA testing that it built. I've never
Speaker 4: once asked it to build a QA test for this
Speaker 4: feature that I'm biting. But these tools are as they're
Speaker 4: getting more mature, they're thinking about scale, They're doing all
Speaker 4: this stuff where it is thinking about accessibility, is thinking
Speaker 4: about security, is thinking about how do you test this
Speaker 4: stuff at scale so you automatically alert when things are
Speaker 4: working properly or latency is getting too high or you
Speaker 4: know you're.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but even when you do have a design system,
Speaker 3: UX stood as a job. I mean, you know how
Speaker 3: to organize stuff on the page, how to break things
Speaker 3: between pages.
Speaker 4: That's where I say it came from a position of
Speaker 4: privilege in that, yes, you exit the job. So I
Speaker 4: have a rich library of components that I can talk
Speaker 4: to an AI and have it use those commonents. Now
Speaker 4: the question is what happens when you come up with
Speaker 4: an idea that doesn't it within that library component? My
Speaker 4: position privilege is, well, then I that would be kind
Speaker 4: of traditional product management of like, hey, go talk to
Speaker 4: the UX team, have a meeting.
Speaker 2: This is what I'm thinking. They build a component and
Speaker 2: so yeah, that would be maybe I'm moving back into
Speaker 2: the traditional world.
Speaker 4: But you only have so much of that because once
Speaker 4: you built this library up, I can in that library
Speaker 4: is understood by AI.
Speaker 2: It just doesn't.
Speaker 3: So in effect, you've not only cut kind of the
Speaker 3: developer out of building the MVP, you've also cut the
Speaker 3: designer out of building the MVP. You could, let's let's
Speaker 3: put it bluntly.
Speaker 4: I would say compress. We've compressed the amount of designers
Speaker 4: we've needed. We've compressed the amount of developers we've needed
Speaker 4: within this process of creation. It just allows me to
Speaker 4: iterate much quicker now. I think you actually kind of
Speaker 4: hit an interesting point. And I think AI in general,
Speaker 4: AI is only backwards facing, right, it can only tell
Speaker 4: you what it's been taught. I think it struggles more
Speaker 4: with like, hey, I want to do something that's new
Speaker 4: and different. I have a much harder time and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 4: I want a UI component that does this. Those prompts
Speaker 4: have done that, Like those are painful, whereas it's lot
Speaker 4: easier when if it's something that's more common, like hey,
Speaker 4: this thing don't exist, it can do that no time.
Speaker 2: But thinking I don't know. At the same time, you see.
Speaker 4: These freaking crock AI videos that do interesting stuff. But
Speaker 4: in my experience that the creation side of it that's
Speaker 4: like new and different, I find that to be a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 3: I had that amusing situation recently. I had I was
Speaker 3: trying to get and I was playing around with a
Speaker 3: new library that does a certain thing, an alternative to
Speaker 3: an existing library that we're using, and I asked it
Speaker 3: to build a mall application for me using that does
Speaker 3: a certain thing using this new library, And I was going.
Speaker 3: Cursor was chugging along, and a certain point it says,
Speaker 3: I failed, I'm going to revert to that old library,
Speaker 3: which I found to be really amusing. It's kind of
Speaker 3: almost a human type response in a sense. So I
Speaker 3: stopped it because that the whole point was building the
Speaker 3: thing using the new library, not just doing it again using.
Speaker 2: The old library first.
Speaker 4: Or deleted my entire front end because it got tired
Speaker 4: of my type script airs the entire front and said
Speaker 4: compiled successfully.
Speaker 2: Your airs are gone.
Speaker 4: And I literally tweeted at the time, I said, a
Speaker 4: I will kill us all. Don't ever tell it to
Speaker 4: fix the human condition.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes sometimes it, you know, there was this kind
Speaker 3: of funny story, it's it's a bit old about back
Speaker 3: in the COVID days, they were looking to use AI
Speaker 3: to analyze X rays chest x rays to try to
Speaker 3: figure out to see I kind of a doctor assistant
Speaker 3: trying to figure out based on the X ray if
Speaker 3: that person has COVID or not. And they came out
Speaker 3: with some amusing results. So, for example, it turned out
Speaker 3: that a lot of the healthy people were the picture
Speaker 3: was taken while they were standing up, while people were sick.
Speaker 3: Pictures were taking while they were laying down, and the
Speaker 3: chest is kind of positioned differently when you were laying down,
Speaker 3: So basically they I based its decision on whether they
Speaker 3: were standing up or laying down.
Speaker 2: Such for machine learning use case, I'm like, generally they either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but it's kind of like, of course,
Speaker 3: I was just giving it as an example with that.
Speaker 3: With these systems, you all don't always get what you
Speaker 3: expect to get. Sometimes you get funny shortcuts like you mentioned.
Speaker 3: But fixing all the errors by deleting all.
Speaker 1: The farms, well, basically your computers do what you tell them,
Speaker 1: do you know what we want them to do? Is
Speaker 1: the adage I've always Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Had the problem with my kids as well.
Speaker 1: By the way, that's amen to that, brother, Amen Gunner.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you a lot of this has
Speaker 1: been pretty high level, and I'm sort of a nuts
Speaker 1: and bolts kinds of guy, so I'm curious if you
Speaker 1: could walk through this, maybe the steps and the tools
Speaker 1: as much as you can to. When you're vibe coding,
Speaker 1: you know how you're creating, what are you opening up?
Speaker 1: What do you talk to me? What are you typing into?
Speaker 1: How is it giving you your output? Sort of hard
Speaker 1: to do audio, you know, without the visual I'm sure,
Speaker 1: and that would be very nice. But I'm just curious
Speaker 1: to see what the actual mechanics are of vibe coding,
Speaker 1: because everything I've heard had been is a high level.
Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's as great. I can tell to do
Speaker 1: this and it gives me this, Okay, great, how do
Speaker 1: you do it?
Speaker 4: I I have quite a few friends that are engineers, developers,
Speaker 4: and they all laugh at me on my text chains
Speaker 4: these days because I'm learning things that developers learned ages ago. Right,
Speaker 4: it's not in my world as a perfect example, and
Speaker 4: the thing is, like I spent ten years in it,
Speaker 4: I should know better. Is the answer to some of
Speaker 4: this stuff, But just something as simple as using Git.
Speaker 4: I didn't bother using Git until it deleted my entire
Speaker 4: front end and I had no backup.
Speaker 2: Damn it.
Speaker 4: I spent a couple of days on the front end
Speaker 4: and literally I couldn't get it back.
Speaker 2: It was just John.
Speaker 3: I have to interject that I've come to a similar
Speaker 3: conclusion that Git is one of the is like the
Speaker 3: thing to use together with five coding slash AI coding,
Speaker 3: because it usually asks you do you want to keep
Speaker 3: something or reject it, but I found that it's easier
Speaker 3: to just mostly accept it, use see that it works,
Speaker 3: and do comparisons using git, and if it's bad, then
Speaker 3: just revert using Git.
Speaker 4: Yes, because there you're talking about curser.
Speaker 2: I did a lot with Kurser.
Speaker 4: I have more recently moved to clock code because cursor
Speaker 4: just I don't know what they're ll and they're using
Speaker 4: as band scene. I don't think they're using clots on it,
Speaker 4: but it's just not great. Like I just I'm sure
Speaker 4: you guys have had the experience where like I'm gonna
Speaker 4: I got promise a okay to fixate, I got to
Speaker 4: go change B B broke, C C broke, and then
Speaker 4: you're just watching cursor go in circles for an hour,
Speaker 4: even though you can read it literally like even though
Speaker 4: I'm not a developer to answer your questions, see like.
Speaker 2: How do I'm kind of get in the middle of it,
Speaker 2: but how do I actually do it?
Speaker 4: Is I'm reading the AI, I'm reading NonStop of what
Speaker 4: it's doing. Again, I'm not a developer, so what am
Speaker 4: I doing is like it's code code, code, code code,
Speaker 4: But then I start to see things like tenant ID
Speaker 4: and it starts to show up often enough, and I
Speaker 4: start having airs often enough where I have actually caught
Speaker 4: it doing the wrong thing, like from a developed code standpoint,
Speaker 4: where it's like I did one five thing where I'm like,
Speaker 4: I was doing a single database using rols and then
Speaker 4: I switch it to like one database per tenant to
Speaker 4: make the permissions easier by the way, things I couldn't
Speaker 4: say a month ago, and in that I could say,
Speaker 4: it's like I did this migration between these two database
Speaker 4: search for multi tenancy, and I could see it like
Speaker 4: doing it wrong, and so to interject and like no,
Speaker 4: like that variable doesn't exist anymore, like you're doing it wrong,
Speaker 4: and they're like oh, and then it changed it and
Speaker 4: I literally helped it troubleshoot its own stupid air cursor
Speaker 4: drives me crazy. Cloud Code have had far, far fewer
Speaker 4: actual coding errors as I'm using the software. But anyways,
Speaker 4: so how do I use this stuff? Well, I've tested
Speaker 4: a lot of different AI systems. The one that's currently
Speaker 4: on my screen is visual Studio, and I'm just using
Speaker 4: cloud Code via the CLI, which is how clock code works.
Speaker 4: It's got a great in it function where we'll actually
Speaker 4: look at your entire project, and in my opinion, it's
Speaker 4: the best at actually understanding the project. And yes, I've
Speaker 4: done curser from from zero to one in cursor. Cursor
Speaker 4: is very good at this and understanding your project as well.
Speaker 4: But I've just got too mad at the Cursor circular
Speaker 4: chasing of errors.
Speaker 2: That just drove me crazy. I have. I've found that
Speaker 2: Claude is much much or cloud code is much better
Speaker 2: at that. Unless is no plug for anyone, I don't
Speaker 2: really care.
Speaker 1: So cloud code is a terminal application basically, if I'm
Speaker 1: looking at it right, I haven't used it yet. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not like an I d ee. You open up
Speaker 1: and here's your files and here's your code. Net is
Speaker 1: basically command Linehere you're typing in text.
Speaker 2: Hey do this for me?
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean I could screen share it with you,
Speaker 4: but I'm literally doing a terminal in the side of
Speaker 4: my ide.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: So I'm in there at typing Claude. Boom, it launches,
Speaker 4: I do slash a knit. It then goes and reads
Speaker 4: the entire Fulder structure that I'm that I'm in uh,
Speaker 4: and then it creates a empty file.
Speaker 2: And it's just very similar to Cursor, right, Uh.
Speaker 4: Curser's just looking at that fuller UH structure, and it's
Speaker 4: creating its own documentation of what it sees.
Speaker 2: A Cursor and Claude are doing very small things.
Speaker 4: I wish Claude actually had that more id rich integration.
Speaker 4: I like the UI of Cursor.
Speaker 2: Better than I like the UI of Claude, but I will.
Speaker 4: Say I like the results of Claude better, so I'll
Speaker 4: deal with the small amount of changes there.
Speaker 1: So you said it reads your fulder structure. Do you
Speaker 1: have to have a Fulder structure in place before you
Speaker 1: start or are you starting with basically nothing that says here,
Speaker 1: I'm going to create this project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, you can always start playing.
Speaker 4: It's just I'm often code or vibing on something that
Speaker 4: you know, I didn't vibeuse. This isn't my day drop like,
Speaker 4: this is just something I do from about six pm
Speaker 4: to midnight most nights. So that's the other thing I
Speaker 4: find really interesting is that as a non I'm a creator.
Speaker 4: This gets into a different sidebar. But like I do
Speaker 4: in my spare time, I am a woodworker. I like
Speaker 4: to I like the active creation of things. That's actually
Speaker 4: why I choose product management is because I like the
Speaker 4: act of creation, but it's often been too difficult for
Speaker 4: me to understand.
Speaker 2: The languages are changing all the time.
Speaker 4: I did computer science twenty years ago to college, like
Speaker 4: the language of college is changing.
Speaker 2: I don't think my C plus p bus knowledge helps
Speaker 2: me anymore.
Speaker 4: And so it's nicest to be able to truly create
Speaker 4: and feel like I can see an output of an
Speaker 4: idea in very short amount of time.
Speaker 2: But now I told you I went on a tangent there.
Speaker 2: What was your question.
Speaker 1: Well, I was just going to say, we can call
Speaker 1: you gunn or the creator, but no, I was just
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get my head around what it
Speaker 1: is what you're actually doing when you're vibing, you know,
Speaker 1: how are you doing it?
Speaker 4: So I start like, right now I've got ID open
Speaker 4: a blank I just start open new folder, blank folder.
Speaker 2: Right now.
Speaker 4: The product I'm currently looking at, I got two of
Speaker 4: them open. One of them is Caro, which is ki
Speaker 4: r dot dev. It's on a wait list right now,
Speaker 4: but it is public and it's very similar to Cursor
Speaker 4: powered by clouds. On it you can switch it to three,
Speaker 4: seven or four of course fron on four. And the
Speaker 4: thing that I found really interesting about this one to
Speaker 4: get to your question, is it has the vibe It
Speaker 4: literally is called vibe as a function, and the other
Speaker 4: one is spec as a function. And you can think
Speaker 4: of this and other ones like ask versus agent. I
Speaker 4: think is what curser calls it, like am I going
Speaker 4: to write you code? Or am I just going to
Speaker 4: respond to your questions?
Speaker 2: Similar?
Speaker 4: But the SPEC in this thing is really interesting because
Speaker 4: that's kind of like as if I'm talking to a
Speaker 4: really good product manager or program manager depending on.
Speaker 2: Your miro suft.
Speaker 4: But this this thing is going to start taking my
Speaker 4: idea is, hey, I want to create a new instant
Speaker 4: messaging app.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool? Uh.
Speaker 4: The spec is going to start asking me questions, what
Speaker 4: what do you want to do with the instment? Is
Speaker 4: some interesting app? Blah blah blah, And we kind of
Speaker 4: go through this whole thing together. It's going to then
Speaker 4: create my PRD. From there, it will we're talking about
Speaker 4: compressing a different use cases. Product manager is compressed, right
Speaker 4: because now I'm able to write docs much faster. You
Speaker 4: talked about UX, We talked about that. The other thing
Speaker 4: is impresses the program manager's job. Everyone is effected by
Speaker 4: this thing inside this industry. So it goes back to
Speaker 4: my question, if you were to start a company, what
Speaker 4: would it look like. So the next step of this
Speaker 4: spec is to design it. Right, So here's all the
Speaker 4: normal stuff you get from a product manager. I needed
Speaker 4: to do this, you know, as a user. I want
Speaker 4: to do this so that I can do the standard
Speaker 4: user story, very product manager centric user story. So now
Speaker 4: I can do that by just talking like a human
Speaker 4: and saying I want this messaging app that allows me
Speaker 4: to connect to these people. I wanted to only be
Speaker 4: for government employees, you know, so let's bring bring in
Speaker 4: some you know, tough security stuff into it. It's like,
Speaker 4: do all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay. Now after you do that, now it's going to
Speaker 2: go to a design phase.
Speaker 4: So now I'm in a principal engineer level at least
Speaker 4: you know where I work, be a principal engineer.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: So now it's going to look at this and I
Speaker 4: can say, you might ask me the question or follow
Speaker 4: up and to say, like where do you want to
Speaker 4: design songs? I want it all built on a bus.
Speaker 4: Every service is a bus for obvious reasons for me.
Speaker 4: But I could say is your I could say, GCP,
Speaker 4: I could say, go use some startup, doesn't matter, so
Speaker 4: then it will do a full design spec. And that
Speaker 4: one is really impressive. How well, because that's actually something
Speaker 4: I'm smarter act. If you're outside of the development world,
Speaker 4: you're like, you know, my world of actually understanding how
Speaker 4: different services work together.
Speaker 1: Okay, so real quick design, you're talking about designing the
Speaker 1: structure of the app. When I think design, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: you I design.
Speaker 2: And then.
Speaker 4: So just a clarify are you going to use for
Speaker 4: this type of workload the system, market system market that role?
Speaker 1: Okay, I just want to clarify what design we're talking
Speaker 1: about here.
Speaker 4: So we're designing the entire system, So what is the
Speaker 4: front end going to use? We're going to use React whatever.
Speaker 2: Uh. So we go through all the things they will
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 4: I have some back and forth with it on that,
Speaker 4: and then it gives me a design spec.
Speaker 2: Now this is me vibing. You asked me a vibe question,
Speaker 2: not what I'm doing it like for my day job.
Speaker 2: Just this is me vibing.
Speaker 4: So give me a full design spec, which I enjoy
Speaker 4: because now I can, as a product manager turn back
Speaker 4: around and I start looking at.
Speaker 2: It wants me to use Eacy two containers.
Speaker 4: It doesn't just as an example, or wants me to
Speaker 4: use a far Gate container and make sure you use
Speaker 4: a doctor container. Well, now I actually do my little
Speaker 4: product management thing of like how is this going to
Speaker 4: cost me?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: So then I started looking at these different design specs
Speaker 4: and I say, you know what, that one's pretty expensive.
Speaker 4: Can we use serverless here, don't use serverless here, use
Speaker 4: already s here, use my squel here, right, And to
Speaker 4: have these different conversations, and then just like you with
Speaker 4: chat GBT, it's going to start telling you is like, well,
Speaker 4: here's the advantages of this type of databas system, resist
Speaker 4: type system. These are the different you know, running it
Speaker 4: as a service, and these cost tructures for these things.
Speaker 4: So all these things kind of again get compressed in
Speaker 4: you in you you know, my job to build a
Speaker 4: five year p and l of these things. So as
Speaker 4: I'm looking at the design, I'm also looking at the
Speaker 4: cost of the design that there's ways that we can
Speaker 4: adjust that design to make it more cost effective without
Speaker 4: necessarily to directly impacting customer experience. I had one the
Speaker 4: other day with use puss grass versus Aurora, and you know.
Speaker 2: The gives and takes there.
Speaker 4: So it's doing design doc which I would actually in
Speaker 4: my day job send it over to a principal engineer,
Speaker 4: some senior level architect type person to just to design that.
Speaker 4: From that, this is where the program manager comes in.
Speaker 4: Once you have the agreed like product specs, you've now
Speaker 4: got the design of the system done that it will
Speaker 4: literally break down. I did it. I did it by
Speaker 4: accident the other day. I didn't realize I was going
Speaker 4: to do it. It will break it down by sprint.
Speaker 4: I will get an entire burndown chart using this AI.
Speaker 4: Now I haven't tested any of that, but it was like, dang,
Speaker 4: like talk about yet another role in this industry where
Speaker 4: you look at this and it's like this will take
Speaker 4: I think the one idea is like seven months to complete.
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, you just do it. It's a good
Speaker 2: about maur. That's scary.
Speaker 3: That is scary because the obvious question that that this
Speaker 3: brings up is where do, aside from your you, yourself
Speaker 3: kind of sitting in the director's chair as it were,
Speaker 3: where do other humans fit into this process.
Speaker 4: I'm biased your developers, I'm not someone has to sit
Speaker 4: in director shares. You put it like what are the
Speaker 4: right problems to go solve? Like, I don't know about you,
Speaker 4: but I've got family members that love to call me
Speaker 4: up with their million dollar idea, sure, like I can
Speaker 4: get you.
Speaker 3: Remind me there was this old Dilbot strip which now
Speaker 3: gets a whole different meaning thanks to vibecoding, where the
Speaker 3: boss comes to Dilbert and says, I have an idea
Speaker 3: for a product. How can I get it off the ground?
Speaker 3: And the but ask them, well, do you have the
Speaker 3: technical know how? It says obviously not, So do you
Speaker 3: have the money?
Speaker 2: Says no?
Speaker 3: Then basically what you have is nothing. Well, now, thanks
Speaker 3: to vibe coding, you might have actually have something even
Speaker 3: if you don't have the technical know how or money.
Speaker 4: So that gets into another interesting conversation that I think
Speaker 4: one of the advantages I have is because of my background.
Speaker 4: I'm not like I've hired NBA grads with no technical background.
Speaker 2: I think that's a different struggle.
Speaker 4: But for my background, like I started in it, like
Speaker 4: I was a systems engineer at some point in time,
Speaker 4: Like I've had a lot of different roles in my life.
Speaker 4: So a lot of times when it's giving me a design,
Speaker 4: like I understand like even a simple term like database.
Speaker 2: I know that's asbout as high level as we can go.
Speaker 4: Some some pms fresh out of school may not really
Speaker 4: understand what that means, right, And that's being kind of
Speaker 4: but you get into these lower levels, like you do
Speaker 4: have to have a fundamental understanding of how how building
Speaker 4: applications work. And if you don't, you can ask the
Speaker 4: AI to teach you. But you do need to have that.
Speaker 4: So when I say to Steve earlier, like I'm reading it,
Speaker 4: I'm reading it because I do have a fundamental knowledge
Speaker 4: of what it's doing. Right, Oh, it's doing this thing
Speaker 4: to do this, and that's going to go plug in
Speaker 4: over here. It's like, okay, I have some fundamental knowledge
Speaker 4: over twenty years of history here where I kind of
Speaker 4: get it now. I don't necessarily on the code, but
Speaker 4: as they say in the Matrix, I don't even look
Speaker 4: at the code anymore.
Speaker 2: I just see blonde girl, blue dress. Whatever he says
Speaker 2: to the matrix.
Speaker 4: If you understand my reference there, Yeah, that's kind of
Speaker 4: how I think about it, Like it's doing a bunch
Speaker 4: of stuff, but I'm starting to just kind of see
Speaker 4: what it's doing, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The other aspect is something that came up with our
Speaker 3: discussion with Anthony when he was talking about vibe coding
Speaker 3: from the developer's perspective. He talked about the there's still
Speaker 3: the need to be able to take complex problems and
Speaker 3: break them down into parts. So obviously, you know, as
Speaker 3: AI gets more sophisticated, it can also start doing that itself,
Speaker 3: but it can go veer very far off track if
Speaker 3: you just give it a very general problem and tell
Speaker 3: it to solve it. So it's like, you know, if
Speaker 3: you tell it, like, I don't know, bake me a cake,
Speaker 3: you might not get you get the cake, but you
Speaker 3: might get a cupcake, or you might get the cake
Speaker 3: in a savory cake, or you might get the cake
Speaker 3: in a totally different flavor than what you want, or
Speaker 3: you might get the cake that's not edible at all
Speaker 3: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can get yellow cake uranium.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's kind of the point I'm saying, Like
Speaker 4: I would agree that was true about six months ago,
Speaker 4: I don't think that's as true now. These tools have
Speaker 4: gotten significantly better. I literally just put in my I
Speaker 4: want to create an instant messaging app for the government
Speaker 4: use case. When I used earlier and it is now
Speaker 4: giving me exceptance criteria across the board of my requirements
Speaker 4: that I go through, and it is thinking about scale,
Speaker 4: it is thinking about how do you actually break this
Speaker 4: thing down into components that are more easily manageable. It's
Speaker 4: doing all of that for me. And that was kind
Speaker 4: of like the mind blown thing I had a couple
Speaker 4: of months ago because I used see you, I'd build
Speaker 4: a I'd go into chat TBT and have.
Speaker 2: It build a lambd, Python and function.
Speaker 4: Of some sort for me, like it was good at
Speaker 4: kind of a single page, single use.
Speaker 2: I've been doing that for a couple of years. It's
Speaker 2: only more recently where when you were wanting to do
Speaker 2: some things at greater scale that I feel like these
Speaker 2: tools have caught up to that. I'm not saying it's
Speaker 2: there yet.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying I can vibe and have a production
Speaker 4: ready anything, but I can vibe and have it think
Speaker 4: around the big stuff that you don't normally do. But again,
Speaker 4: that requires a certain level of background and expertise to
Speaker 4: understand why that's important.
Speaker 2: My family member calling me up.
Speaker 4: With their million dollar idea, they don't have that background,
Speaker 4: they don't have that understanding of like why it might
Speaker 4: be important to understand permissions or I don't know, that's
Speaker 4: too easy, but you get my point. So these tools
Speaker 4: have gotten significantly smarter. And I'm saying this is in
Speaker 4: the last this year, last six months where I've seen
Speaker 4: a significant shift and the tools ability to just write
Speaker 4: me a quick script that's been going on for a
Speaker 4: couple of years now to thinking bigger, thinking, scalable, thinking, modular.
Speaker 2: It's they're much much better.
Speaker 4: And I would actually point to kiro Is I think
Speaker 4: one of the better ones of doing exactly that. Even
Speaker 4: but even like Claude Code and others, I've noticed that
Speaker 4: they are looking at how I structure out a folder
Speaker 4: from zero to one?
Speaker 2: Right, how do I structure this thing out?
Speaker 4: And if you ask, if you put in the right prompts,
Speaker 4: which that's where the user experience starts to fall apart,
Speaker 4: because you have to know to ask the right questions.
Speaker 4: But if you put the right prompts in, it is
Speaker 4: going to give you the type of experience I would expect,
Speaker 4: you know, working at a large, high scale company. And
Speaker 4: I think that that's an interesting thing is when it
Speaker 4: is smart enough to do this with a bigger picture
Speaker 4: in mind.
Speaker 3: So if we think about that, and let's not even
Speaker 3: talk about today, let's talk about I don't know, two
Speaker 3: or three years down the road, which seems like a
Speaker 3: whole lot, but it's essentially nothing. Are we going to
Speaker 3: have like a convergence of the developer role in the
Speaker 3: product role where in both cases you're basically describing to
Speaker 3: the AI what you want and you're technical enough to
Speaker 3: use the correct terms and proper and proper explanations and
Speaker 3: be specific enough in what you request to get to
Speaker 3: actual the actual desired results. Uh. And that's essentially going
Speaker 3: to be programming, Like being a programmer is going to
Speaker 3: be being is going to be what used to be
Speaker 3: known as being a product person.
Speaker 4: The product persons their number one job is still to
Speaker 4: understand the customer problem that we're trying to solve. That
Speaker 4: doesn't change, Ever, the output of that does change, Like
Speaker 4: does that mean I'm writing a PRFIC q br D,
Speaker 4: Like what.
Speaker 2: Is the output of that? I still think there is
Speaker 2: plenty of room for us.
Speaker 4: You know, perificu is like an Amazon way of writing
Speaker 4: any kind of business business strategy doc. I still think
Speaker 4: there's a lot of room for As you know, Jeff
Speaker 4: Bezos would say, working backwards from the customer problem, you
Speaker 4: never go wrong there. So I think product managers still
Speaker 4: have a very important role in that. And I still
Speaker 4: as I surrounded by developers, I know them well enough
Speaker 4: that they have no desire to do that, like they
Speaker 4: want to build shit.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't know the rules on language on this podcast,
Speaker 2: but yeah, so like that that role is still there.
Speaker 4: But to your point, what is the output of me
Speaker 4: to the input of developer. That is where it gets
Speaker 4: more gray area. And I'm you know, I'm literally like
Speaker 4: meeting with my team and saying, you need to have
Speaker 4: an ID running as your primary these days, like instead
Speaker 4: of Microsoft word right, it is work with your ide
Speaker 4: Don't give me a doc that you didn't write with
Speaker 4: an AI because we have a very high bar for
Speaker 4: writing where it work. And you know, I don't have
Speaker 4: to deal with grammatical issues anymore. I don't have to
Speaker 4: deal with tense issues or hyperbole issues because of how
Speaker 4: we work as a company. It's like so grammarly, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: grammatically like all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: It's well, grammarly is different.
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, like you have someone in your office
Speaker 4: that's you know, just you have an expert in any
Speaker 4: field that you want for the most part right here,
Speaker 4: put that on your screen, write your document, and collaboration
Speaker 4: with this thing. And as you get better at this,
Speaker 4: and as these these tools get better, you're gonna get
Speaker 4: better docts. You're going to start doing a better job
Speaker 4: of not just understanding the customer problem that's still a
Speaker 4: human endeavor, but putting that in terms that and making
Speaker 4: it easier for developers to then build the next thing.
Speaker 2: There's another conversation. We don't necessarily talk about it.
Speaker 4: I do think the idea of sprint changes once this
Speaker 4: stuff really starts to steamroll, because I don't necessarily think
Speaker 4: we need to be working at two weeks prints anymore.
Speaker 4: I know some people do one three, But I do
Speaker 4: think there's a fundamental shift in program management.
Speaker 2: That's another topic.
Speaker 3: We might touch on that. But I have a question
Speaker 3: when you so you said that Amazon is is very
Speaker 3: kind of strict in terms of, you know, what the
Speaker 3: doc what the product, role is the product, the documents
Speaker 3: that are created, the standards that they adhere to.
Speaker 2: Et cetera. A high bar. It's gonna be a high
Speaker 2: bar positive.
Speaker 3: If you were working at the company that was not Amazon,
Speaker 3: would you would you still have these documents or would
Speaker 3: you just.
Speaker 2: Use the vibe code result, I'm fully in on the
Speaker 2: kool aid over.
Speaker 4: Here of our leadership principles as a company. And I'm
Speaker 4: not saying that because I'm recorded. I really do believe.
Speaker 4: I think we have great leadership principles here, and I
Speaker 4: love the perific format and you can google it.
Speaker 2: This is publicly stuff.
Speaker 4: I don't know how much talk about it, but I
Speaker 4: know there's a lot of stuff out there, so I
Speaker 4: want to somewhat avoid talking about that because again, I'm
Speaker 4: just here as Gunner. I'm not here as any Amazon appointee.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I would use them because you still need
Speaker 4: to have you need to understand the problem that you're
Speaker 4: trying to solve.
Speaker 2: Period.
Speaker 4: Now, how I build a doc, I would build it
Speaker 4: with AI, and I have built any doc I've built
Speaker 4: of that scale in the last two three years has
Speaker 4: had some type of AI assistance involved in it. So
Speaker 4: I build a doc because I can go I can
Speaker 4: be more rapid in my in building of that document.
Speaker 2: And you know the pr press release epic.
Speaker 4: You frequent last questions, the questions what questions should I
Speaker 4: be asking, Hey, you've you're I'm working on this thing.
Speaker 4: What questions am I not asking here that I should
Speaker 4: be asking? I might ask the AI. It's like, well,
Speaker 4: you know someone might ask about this is this is
Speaker 4: It allows you to look around corners that you may
Speaker 4: not naturally look around.
Speaker 2: And that's why i'm you.
Speaker 4: Know, you're you're You've got an expert of the room
Speaker 4: with you as you're, you know, a human, and you're
Speaker 4: not always going to think about all of the questions
Speaker 4: that I should be asking.
Speaker 2: So having this this.
Speaker 4: Tool at your disposal that's been trained on basically the
Speaker 4: human intelligence collective human intelligence like you, you'd be remiss
Speaker 4: not to use it. So I'm really interest stive you
Speaker 4: said you're the you'd be the anti AI, because I've
Speaker 4: been speaking down for thirty minutes of very pro AI,
Speaker 4: So I'd love to hear kind of like the anti
Speaker 4: version of this.
Speaker 2: But from my perspective, like I can move faster, I can.
Speaker 4: Have better documents, I have better questions, I have everything
Speaker 4: about It improves in.
Speaker 2: My ability to make good product.
Speaker 4: The negative, if you're going to have one is I
Speaker 4: do think it's the doom for all of us that
Speaker 4: we are having a job. But that's a whole other issue
Speaker 4: that I'm going to just sweep down the road into
Speaker 4: the future.
Speaker 1: Well, so you want to say you want to hear
Speaker 1: my vay point, and then is that what you're saying Gunner.
Speaker 1: I'll start out by saying that there is not a
Speaker 1: tool that exists that, when not used in its proper
Speaker 1: context or as proper purpose, can be abused and is
Speaker 1: not going to work. Well, that is true of anything
Speaker 1: from I'll give a weird example carbon fourteen dating. In
Speaker 1: terms of dating, you know, geology and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I see people uh twist and use that, you know,
Speaker 1: to in various contexts and stuff. In my experience, you know,
Speaker 1: AI has can be a great tool. It can do
Speaker 1: a lot of things, but there are other things that
Speaker 1: it really sucks at. We had a discussion in my
Speaker 1: workplace the other day about somebody said, I am so
Speaker 1: waiting for the AI bubble to burst. And there's an
Speaker 1: article that I was going to do for picks that
Speaker 1: and I had to tweeted it out the other day
Speaker 1: and I got to find it again. But the gist
Speaker 1: of the title is basically, I'm going to e think
Speaker 1: pile drive. The next person who talks to me about
Speaker 1: AI because people are so you know, sick of it,
Speaker 1: especially in the development where about everything everything's AI AI AI.
Speaker 1: And as a person who uh prior to you know,
Speaker 1: Chat dpat Chat GPT's release that sort of made everything
Speaker 1: explode a couple of years ago, I lived a lot
Speaker 1: in the search world, Lucine based search, you know, Google
Speaker 1: type stuff, views and Lucine PATCHI, solar elastic search, that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and knowing one that AI is a
Speaker 1: model and models, whether it's climate models that I see
Speaker 1: have used all the time, whether it's economical models, whether whatever,
Speaker 1: garbage in, garbage out. And also the developers have a
Speaker 1: very very large impact on the AI and what it generates.
Speaker 1: You can see models with bias, you know, from a
Speaker 1: political standpoint, from any other nandpoint. You see it all
Speaker 1: the time in terms of oh, I'll comment on this guy,
Speaker 1: but no, I can't say anything good about this guy,
Speaker 1: even though they're both political figures in the same positions
Speaker 1: that have been You know, there's stories that I've seen,
Speaker 1: horror stories that I've seen from a legal standpoint with AI,
Speaker 1: where I basically literally made up cases that did not
Speaker 1: exist and attached them to some guy and he had
Speaker 1: to clear his own reputation, you know, an attorney. There
Speaker 1: was a recent legal case in California that I've mentioned
Speaker 1: before where a judge censored attorney because she said, this
Speaker 1: is obviously AI. He quotes these cases and it goes
Speaker 1: to look, they don't even exist. The AI made them
Speaker 1: up to try to fulfill, you know, its request instead
Speaker 1: of just saying say, I don't know it now. From
Speaker 1: a code standpoint, you know, when IT first came out,
Speaker 1: a lot of it is, oh, you can tell a
Speaker 1: I to write your code for you, and great, here
Speaker 1: writes are your code for you, And then you start
Speaker 1: seeing surveys that eighty percent of code that was generated
Speaker 1: AI eventually gets reverted.
Speaker 3: I have to interject with a funny thing I saw
Speaker 3: next a while back where somebody wrote the dumbest person
Speaker 3: you know is currently being told by AI that that's
Speaker 3: the very good point.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, exactly, you know, and so you know AI,
Speaker 1: it's it's like I said, garbage in garbage. I used
Speaker 1: Geminia to use chat GTP for troubleshooting code a lot
Speaker 1: of times, like shoot, why am I getting this error?
Speaker 1: You know, help me figure this out? Help me make
Speaker 1: PHP stand happy that kind of stuff, and even then
Speaker 1: I got corrected a lot of times because it gives
Speaker 1: me bad data. You know, last night I was messing
Speaker 1: around with the JavaScript inertia thing and we use this function.
Speaker 1: I go look it like, no, that doesn't exist, and
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, yeah, sorry, I was wrong.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So there's so much that it gets wrong. There's so
Speaker 1: many dependencies, there's so many things that can influence it.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that I think
Speaker 1: is obviously having to be work on is that if
Speaker 1: you give it a task and it can't do it,
Speaker 1: instead of saying I can't do it, it makes up
Speaker 1: a bunch of crap to try to fulfill what it's
Speaker 1: told to do. And so to me, we had a
Speaker 1: guy on and I forget his name, and we were
Speaker 1: talking about AI models and he was going into detail
Speaker 1: about how AI models work and what they do, and
Speaker 1: I came out with that thinking that's basically just search
Speaker 1: on steroids, is what it is. And so so from
Speaker 1: a generative standpoint, you mentioned this earlier when you wanted
Speaker 1: to create something from scratch, it really can't do that.
Speaker 1: Generative generative AI is not something I would trust at all.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're asking it to work with something
Speaker 1: that's already there and maybe helping you figure out in
Speaker 1: your case, is generating stuff, it's generating products and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But it shouldn't be everything. In all you know,
Speaker 1: in all that it's being used in abuse for and
Speaker 1: I think, so back to my original point, I think
Speaker 1: as a tool, when it's used properly, it's very efficient.
Speaker 1: You've mentioned yourself vibe coding, how it saved lots of
Speaker 1: time because it can do stuff so quickly and generate
Speaker 1: a demo for you, where in years past it would
Speaker 1: have taken documents written in meetings. And I know because
Speaker 1: I went through all those meetings and writing documents and
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But it's not the solution to everything.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've seen it takeover jobs. My daughter's
Speaker 1: fiance lost his job because it got you know, farmed
Speaker 1: out to AI. And we see stories about Junia developers
Speaker 1: getting hired now because AI can do it for you.
Speaker 1: So there's pros and cons to you know that part
Speaker 1: of the argument too. But my point is, yes, it's
Speaker 1: a great tool, but let's not use it for everything
Speaker 1: and just saturate our entire lives with AI and it
Speaker 1: can solve all their problems because.
Speaker 2: It can't well that it can't generate from zero.
Speaker 4: I would fundamentally disagree with that, but let me caveat
Speaker 4: the point because you were you were jumping on what
Speaker 4: I said earlier. Using djingo, it will build a great thing.
Speaker 4: You have a framework, and it will build from that framework.
Speaker 4: My point was that we were talking about UI at
Speaker 4: the time. So if I already have a framework with
Speaker 4: a UI framework with a bunch of bones in it
Speaker 4: or assets in it, it can use those assets into
Speaker 4: a fantastic job. It's when I want to create something
Speaker 4: that's fundamentally different from that where I would start to struggle.
Speaker 4: But if you think about that, that's that's not necessarily
Speaker 4: a bad thing. Like it's not creating type script JavaScript
Speaker 4: like it's it's not creating.
Speaker 2: A new script, right. It's using that which it has
Speaker 2: been trained on and does a very good job of writing.
Speaker 4: Code because it has billions of lines of code that
Speaker 4: it has been trained on to do. But I don't
Speaker 4: think it's going to come up with gunner script anytime
Speaker 4: soon that's going to completely change it. Maybe because I
Speaker 4: have read some of the non generative AI, but some
Speaker 4: of these AI tests where like all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: the AI are talking different AI in a completely different
Speaker 4: language and the researchers can figure out what it was doing. Maybe,
Speaker 4: but that's like way outside the realm of like generative
Speaker 4: AI and what we're talking about. So my point is
Speaker 4: just simply like it's really good at taking something that
Speaker 4: exists like JavaScript, like typescript, like I don't know C
Speaker 4: plus plus whatever, and it's going to write that better
Speaker 4: than human I think, like to your point, you're arguing that,
Speaker 4: oh no, it's not. I would take the other argument.
Speaker 4: I think it will do it better. And we're talking
Speaker 4: less than twelve months time. I've seen in the last
Speaker 4: six months how much better it is.
Speaker 2: Just switching from Kurser to Claude and saying how much
Speaker 2: better that is.
Speaker 4: It's like significantly better in very short periods of time.
Speaker 4: So I do think the reason it can be better
Speaker 4: is because it has billions of data points to look from.
Speaker 4: The problem is like, if I want to create Gunner script,
Speaker 4: is the new better than Java script, Well, it has
Speaker 4: zero lines of code to learn from that, so it
Speaker 4: will be zero helpful in that endeavor.
Speaker 2: Right. That's where I say, like it can't generate from zero.
Speaker 4: From that standpoint, it can, but it can do a
Speaker 4: fantastic job if it has billions of points of reference
Speaker 4: to draw from to write code. So almost everything I
Speaker 4: do starts from a blank slate. I just want to
Speaker 4: be really clear, and I've gotten very far with prototypes
Speaker 4: from a blank slate, So I do believe it can
Speaker 4: do the zero to one thing very well.
Speaker 2: But you also are having another comment. You said someone
Speaker 2: lost their job, and start to hear.
Speaker 4: That I talk to me in a year, I who knows,
Speaker 4: Like I'm literally like I've talked about us the other day.
Speaker 2: It's like, look, I just.
Speaker 4: Can't worry about that anymore. If it comes from me,
Speaker 4: it comes from me. Do I think it can and
Speaker 4: should come for me? Yeah, I do. I think this
Speaker 4: stuff is getting closer, uh that less and less jobs
Speaker 4: are needed. And this is as far as like I
Speaker 4: said earlier, like I think AI is going to be
Speaker 4: a downfall, Like ultimately in the end, it's it's it's
Speaker 4: going to have a bigger negative outcome than a positive outcome.
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, I'm going to sweep that to the future.
Speaker 4: As I've been telling my kids. I used to tell
Speaker 4: you go to computer science. Now, I say, flee from it.
Speaker 4: I don't want any of.
Speaker 2: My be aware which job is not good to good
Speaker 2: luck with that one. There.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a in the US. There's UH to
Speaker 1: answer your question about where to go, dan Uh. There's
Speaker 1: a guy named mic Ro who goes around talking about
Speaker 1: trades and the dearth of people that there are for them.
Speaker 1: That for the people that are as compared to the
Speaker 1: people that are needed for jobs in the trades where
Speaker 1: they can make good mind me without going to college
Speaker 1: and sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt and
Speaker 1: so and the joke, and he made a great point
Speaker 1: a little while ago, he said, And the Democrats used
Speaker 1: to be really bad about this is they would say, oh,
Speaker 1: you lost all your job because EPA shut down. Your
Speaker 1: come mines learned to code. Well, now you can't do
Speaker 1: that anymore because there's no junior debs being hired. Because
Speaker 1: people are using AI. So there are places to go.
Speaker 1: It's just from the developer standpoint, people like you and
Speaker 1: I who have been around a long time and already
Speaker 1: know how to do some of this stuff more at
Speaker 1: a senior level, we're fine. It's the newer people who
Speaker 1: don't know this and want to get a job, they're
Speaker 1: in the cast twenty two. Okay, I need more experience
Speaker 1: if I want to get hired, because they're only hiring
Speaker 1: FEUs a lot of experience. But where do I get
Speaker 1: the experience?
Speaker 2: I think?
Speaker 1: And to me telling an AI to do something, I'm
Speaker 1: a you know, I'm a ground level, nuts and bolts
Speaker 1: kind of guy. I want to know how something works
Speaker 1: at it's a base level. And if I'm just telling
Speaker 1: AI to do it, what am I learning?
Speaker 2: Nothing?
Speaker 4: But is it a bad thing for those junior debs
Speaker 4: to start in my position in the product world? Is
Speaker 4: it a bad thing for developers to really start with
Speaker 4: a firm understanding and with the customer problem is that
Speaker 4: we're trying to solve with this firm understanding of the
Speaker 4: cost model of solving it, how different database structures can
Speaker 4: cost you significantly different expenses on your P and L.
Speaker 4: I don't know why the things a bad thing. You
Speaker 4: just might gravitate more towards the development side. So you
Speaker 4: start with this AI prompting PM type role that does
Speaker 4: prototypes in your traditional junior dev role. But now you're
Speaker 4: maybe just learning a little bit differently than how it's
Speaker 4: been taught today that you can't be separated from the
Speaker 4: customer problem, that the only way into this field might
Speaker 4: be through the customer problem. But then you're like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm going to gravitate towards the actual code that it's building,
Speaker 4: and you build a whole new chain of Like how
Speaker 4: you get to senior dev is you start from a
Speaker 4: different place like I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't started as product manager.
Speaker 4: I started it having problems with technology and I wanted
Speaker 4: to go to the vendor side because I incorrectly assumed
Speaker 4: I could make a huge difference over these technologies.
Speaker 1: Okay, but where are you getting the actual coding experience?
Speaker 2: Then? Well, I'm just saying like if would it be
Speaker 2: a blended thing?
Speaker 4: Would it be as I'm not just going to learn
Speaker 4: CS in a vacuum of CS because I'm going to
Speaker 4: go sit in the cubicle and code all day. Maybe
Speaker 4: it's I'm learning CS within the context of AI is
Speaker 4: out there helping you along the way. But what are
Speaker 4: we talking about about AI? It is the inputs that
Speaker 4: we're giving it, right, the prompts that we're giving it.
Speaker 4: So are you learning the type of prompts that I
Speaker 4: am giving it. I would argue your customer centric prompts
Speaker 4: are we learning to start with the customer problem, which
Speaker 4: I would very firmly believe in. As a product manager,
Speaker 4: you should understand your customer base, understand your customer problem
Speaker 4: before you write a line of code.
Speaker 1: Well, that's always been true, A bad thing, that's always
Speaker 1: been true. I mean, what's the classic line about building.
Speaker 1: You know, if you build, they will come, or you
Speaker 1: build something for a problem doesn't exist. You see companies
Speaker 1: fail all the time because they built, Hey, this would
Speaker 1: be a great product, will nobody wants? So who cared
Speaker 1: about it?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: That hasn't changed. That's always been that way with software, right,
Speaker 1: So I don't think that's anything new. What I the
Speaker 1: way I see it.
Speaker 2: That is what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's new.
Speaker 4: I'm saying the responsibility could shift where that junior role
Speaker 4: is a mix between the responsibility of that and understanding
Speaker 4: the code behind it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I see as more as writing to the
Speaker 1: tool instead of underneath. And I think one of the
Speaker 1: best examples, you know, you hear people talk about prompt
Speaker 1: engineering as a whole new field. So what are you
Speaker 1: doing you're learning how to tell AI to do something.
Speaker 1: To me, that's like a grade school And this is
Speaker 1: a common thing you'll hear in education. My daughter is
Speaker 1: a teacher, and I remember hearing this when I was
Speaker 1: going through school, where.
Speaker 3: You have.
Speaker 1: State tests that you know your kids have to pass
Speaker 1: in order to do well at the end of the year.
Speaker 1: You want they make your school look better. In teacher
Speaker 1: if they do better on the state test. So what
Speaker 1: do you end up doing. You teach for the test
Speaker 1: instead of teaching for the material. To me, it's the
Speaker 1: same thing. Now you're not learning how to do the task,
Speaker 1: you're learning how to tell something else to do the
Speaker 1: task for you.
Speaker 3: Before we cut to picks, I have to mention something
Speaker 3: amusing in this vein that recently happened to me. And
Speaker 3: this might not be indicative of anything, or maybe it is,
Speaker 3: I don't know. So I was reviewing code that one
Speaker 3: of our mid level engineers had written and she used
Speaker 3: AI quite a bit, and AI implemented a certain is
Speaker 3: it needed to iterate through database entries, and she had
Speaker 3: to generate the code for it, and it generated working code.
Speaker 3: But when I reviewed the code, I noticed that it
Speaker 3: used recursion to do the looping, which would mean in
Speaker 3: the case of JavaScript, that if it did enough iterations,
Speaker 3: the stack would blow up. So, just out of curiosity
Speaker 3: I had, I asked the AI myself, hey, look, changes
Speaker 3: code not to and she didn't fix it. She she
Speaker 3: did not review that part of the code, so she
Speaker 3: was not aware of that problem. She just ran some
Speaker 3: unit tests and the unit tests passed, and therefore it
Speaker 3: looked because none of them used enough data to cause
Speaker 3: the problem. And so I asked the AI, please fix
Speaker 3: the code by writing this loop non recursively, and it
Speaker 3: said fine, and it did it, but it implemented it
Speaker 3: as an as a loop within a loop, so it
Speaker 3: made an O of N problem into an.
Speaker 2: O of N squared problem.
Speaker 3: And then I basically got fed up with it and
Speaker 3: I just rewrote those ten lines of code lines of
Speaker 3: code myself.
Speaker 4: But that's where I think an MCP steps then to soay,
Speaker 4: you know, like, that's my point I made earlier. It's like,
Speaker 4: you need to have an AI that's the smartest AI
Speaker 4: on JavaScript, and as you would build something like that,
Speaker 4: you would teach it. These are the things you look
Speaker 4: out for, right, So then your code review would be, oh,
Speaker 4: this isn't jobs or whatever? Did you send that through
Speaker 4: the MCP for the for jobscript review and literally an
Speaker 4: AI you have taught it. Look for this, look for that,
Speaker 4: look for the other type of thing, and you can
Speaker 4: have the output if you want it.
Speaker 2: Don't output new code that creates an N squared problem, Like,
Speaker 2: just tell me when you see it right and give
Speaker 2: you a proper code review, not new code.
Speaker 4: Just capture the things that you see that are wrong.
Speaker 4: That That would be my kind of reverse to that.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, I agree, and I think we will
Speaker 3: get there, and we'll get there pretty quickly. I think
Speaker 3: that eventually AI is coming from all for all of us,
Speaker 3: except for certain service jobs. Like I guess we would
Speaker 3: still like to interact with actual humans. I don't know
Speaker 3: in restaurants, go to McDonald's reacting out with the computer. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but that's not a fancy risk. I anyway, I think
Speaker 3: it's time. So before we go to pics, is there
Speaker 3: anything else gonna that you would like to say that
Speaker 3: you didn't get around to say about this thing?
Speaker 2: Let me see my notes. No, I think we're all right.
Speaker 4: I I haven't didn't get a chance to talk about
Speaker 4: the downfall of humanity and how.
Speaker 2: It all started with social media. But outside of that not, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we're all called end of that, Gunnar.
Speaker 3: If people want to get in touch with you, In
Speaker 3: case you actually want people to get in touch with you,
Speaker 3: how should they go about it?
Speaker 4: You have LinkedIn probably i EX or LinkedIn Gunner w
Speaker 4: B either either one of those.
Speaker 2: If you want to chat, I'm happy to debate.
Speaker 4: My points on AI and product management with anybody it's
Speaker 4: out there.
Speaker 2: Just don't ask me questions about code. Not I think
Speaker 2: we should go to pics.
Speaker 1: Then, right, Steve, Right, let's do it. So I will
Speaker 1: start today and get the high point of the of
Speaker 1: the broadcasts right here, and then we'll just sort of
Speaker 1: slide down hill from there, the high point being the
Speaker 1: dad jokes of the week. So when I interviewed my
Speaker 1: current place of employment, my interview asked me what makes
Speaker 1: you a good fit for this position? And I said,
Speaker 1: I broke into your system and scheduled this interview myself.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I decided that, you know, having that latent desire for
Speaker 1: fame and fortune, that if I ever start a band,
Speaker 1: I'm going to call it day job. So when people say,
Speaker 1: don't quit your day job, I can reply thanks. We
Speaker 1: practice a lot, and then finally my son is now
Speaker 1: at the age where he's curious about the human body.
Speaker 1: I guess I'll have to hide it somewhere else.
Speaker 4: Now I got one for you, Steve. What's that my
Speaker 4: family's favorite dad joke? What did Pardikus do when the
Speaker 4: lion ate his wife? I know this one, tell me nothing.
Speaker 4: He was Gladiator?
Speaker 1: Gladiator? I knew it, dang it. I've used that one
Speaker 1: before Gladiator. And what's the song is that? My son
Speaker 1: listens song called Gladiator and we always make cannibal jokes
Speaker 1: about that one.
Speaker 3: I still the dad joke that you told that I
Speaker 3: still like. The best is the one about the half brother?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, my dad was a magician. So I just
Speaker 1: have half brothers now or something?
Speaker 2: No, it was.
Speaker 3: I have a half brother. Oh is does he have
Speaker 3: a different mother? No?
Speaker 2: He met a shark. Yeah that's right. That is so good.
Speaker 1: And I'll throw out a couple of titles to some
Speaker 1: I guess you want to call them anti ai a
Speaker 1: blog posts that somebody else had brought up work lately.
Speaker 1: One is called I will I think pile drive you
Speaker 1: if you mentioned AI again, it's from about a year ago.
Speaker 1: Pretty funny and one thing that we didn't talk about
Speaker 1: AI with a little bit, and maybe this is included
Speaker 1: in your part about the dawnfall of humanity later, Gunner,
Speaker 1: there's a document called the Hater's Guide to the AI
Speaker 1: bubble is the money involved, the losses that a lot
Speaker 1: of these companies are taking simply because of the computing
Speaker 1: resources that are required in terms of energy, in terms
Speaker 1: of servers power. It's just insane.
Speaker 3: If there's an energy crisis in the world. A alternatively,
Speaker 3: if China invades Taiwan, then AI will be delayed significantly.
Speaker 4: In either case, bitcoin bitcoin probably burns through more than
Speaker 4: anybody else, and that thing is.
Speaker 1: What it does too. You're right, but sure they suck
Speaker 1: power like nothing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but with bitcoin, when the power cost goes up,
Speaker 3: then bitcoin money stops. And the point is exactly that
Speaker 3: that if the if the cost goes up or the
Speaker 3: chip availability goes down, that would put a significant break
Speaker 3: on on AI.
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's enough of my ranting, Dan, What do
Speaker 1: you got for picks anything?
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to So I was I surprisingly enjoyed
Speaker 3: the show that I guess I wasn't supposed to enjoy.
Speaker 3: It's on Netflix. It's called WWE Unreal. It's it's a
Speaker 3: behind the scene look at the WWE. Now, obviously this
Speaker 3: is not a sport. This is a show. This is
Speaker 3: kind of like a soap opera with people throwing each
Speaker 3: other around, and it's literally interesting. It's it's kind of
Speaker 3: interesting to see how the sausage is made behind the scene,
Speaker 3: how they you know, beat each other up and then
Speaker 3: hug each other behind because they're close friends or stuff
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 2: And some of the most like.
Speaker 3: Supposedly violent people are actually very you know, nice homely
Speaker 3: type people behind the scene. Obviously they're all kind of
Speaker 3: fed in the head to be doing that, but it's
Speaker 3: still interesting. The other kind of interesting pick that I
Speaker 3: have so it's it's a show worth watching even if
Speaker 3: you're not into wrestling, in my opinion. The other thing
Speaker 3: is is, as I was searching for it, Google, instead
Speaker 3: of just providing me with the link to either the
Speaker 3: Netflix show or to the IMDb section about it, just
Speaker 3: gave me an overview of it from its ai, which
Speaker 3: is the fact that you know, we are a podcast
Speaker 3: talking about you know, using JavaScript ostensibly to build websites,
Speaker 3: and people are visiting websites a lot less than they
Speaker 3: used to because they're getting their results from Google itself directly.
Speaker 3: And I'm you know, thinking about the point in time again,
Speaker 3: unless energy costs go up through the roof, where instead
Speaker 3: of actually being served some existing website, Google might generate
Speaker 3: custom website dynamically on the fly for you based on
Speaker 3: the query that you with it. I think we're on
Speaker 3: the way there again, unless it becomes too expensive to
Speaker 3: do so, I guess those would be my pick for today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even It's very rare that I Google anymore.
Speaker 2: I most always use aii chat et.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Googling these days is AI because nine times
Speaker 3: out of ten you get the answer.
Speaker 4: F I'm just saying like themes where I go to
Speaker 4: chat GBT and I ask my question, so I don't
Speaker 4: get a bunch of garbage result, I just get the
Speaker 4: answer I want. I have a Google thing in my kitchen.
Speaker 4: I ask a question, it always gives me like a
Speaker 4: paragraph and the answer with like forty two. It's like,
Speaker 4: I don't need the paragraph, I just need forty two.
Speaker 1: The paragraph for the answer to everything.
Speaker 4: Then yeah, yeah, it's way too much, all right, So
Speaker 4: I'm supposed to picks here I did give you. I
Speaker 4: put a link in our chat. So white people are
Speaker 4: called cognitive empathy. And it's actually talking about the issue
Speaker 4: that you guys mentioned earlier, which is that AI will
Speaker 4: always agree with even.
Speaker 2: When you're wrong.
Speaker 4: And it's an interesting documents on GitHub to read about
Speaker 4: this problem and how AI will I think, adapt change
Speaker 4: over time to stop always a green and actually have
Speaker 4: a sense its own stance. Not necessarily political, but when
Speaker 4: it comes to something that's scientifically code that it would
Speaker 4: actually say the best way.
Speaker 3: Hitler was actually a good person.
Speaker 2: My gosh, I'm glad that's coming from someone who lives
Speaker 2: in Israel.
Speaker 4: Anyway, I did one as a joke with my kid.
Speaker 4: I'm like one plus I proved to my kid that
Speaker 4: one plus one is three, and I just wanted to
Speaker 4: see how it respond to that, and the fact that
Speaker 4: it tried to like give me every option it could
Speaker 4: be like why you might say that, well, because it's
Speaker 4: synergy and businesses like to use this term like and
Speaker 4: I said, no, you should just tell me one plus
Speaker 4: one is two like I'm I'm wrong. And so this
Speaker 4: cognitive paper is really interesting one. But it's called cognitive empathy.
Speaker 4: It's a short read. It's like a ten minute reading
Speaker 4: to look at it. What other things?
Speaker 2: I don't know. You said a show? I'm up. I
Speaker 2: just got done watching season two of Netflix's Tires Shane
Speaker 2: Jane Gillis.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that guy is like he's got a direct line
Speaker 4: to my funny bone.
Speaker 2: I love that guy.
Speaker 1: He does the best Trump impression I've ever seen. Good,
Speaker 1: whether you like him or hate him, just the hand,
Speaker 1: the voice, the mannerisms, the hand movements, even with the
Speaker 1: wig on it.
Speaker 2: That's so funny.
Speaker 1: He's so good at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did kill Tony and Madison Square. Yes, was
Speaker 2: dying watching that thing. Uh, something of that. I'll end
Speaker 2: with kind of what we talked about this whole time.
Speaker 4: I encourage anyone listening to check out the cure ok
Speaker 4: I r dot dev id. It's an interesting one. And
Speaker 4: then you know, you guys, check out cloud code if
Speaker 4: you're using cursor. If I was still stuck using curser,
Speaker 4: I'd probably be as mad at ai as some of
Speaker 4: the comments of her today. Uh, clod code is what
Speaker 4: actually brought me to the next page. Or I'm like, hey,
Speaker 4: look a I can write half decent code. It's a
Speaker 4: pretty big jump. So yeah, give back you can get
Speaker 4: you know, seventy trial or whatever. It's like twenty bucks.
Speaker 4: I do them.
Speaker 2: I'm actually using at work.
Speaker 3: I'm using a cursor with Claude four Sonnet okay, and
Speaker 3: I'm getting fun probably the more results because yeah, it's
Speaker 3: all cloud for it so and for Sonnet thinking whatever
Speaker 3: that means.
Speaker 2: Cool. Well, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: So just for a reference for Kiro is the new
Speaker 1: aws UI ide that uses AI and we will be
Speaker 1: having Eric Canshit from ABS or the DevRel been on
Speaker 1: here multiple times before to talk exactly about that topic
Speaker 1: about four weeks from this recording. Not sure when this
Speaker 1: will have come out, but we will be discussing that
Speaker 1: in detail.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you very much Gunner for jumping on. I
Speaker 3: know that you have to drop off about right now,
Speaker 3: so it was very informative and I very much was
Speaker 3: happy to catch up with you and talk about all
Speaker 3: this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yes, thanks everybody for listening to job scrip drabber and
Speaker 1: we'll talk at you next time.