WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.439 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom 2 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:15.240 on the path between primary secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, 3 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:22.640 and I'm glad that you're here. Hey there, welcome back 4 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:25.239 as we continue our book study on Augustin's Confessions, this 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.160 time with books seven and eight. Now, this time was 6 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:30.640 a little bit different. Instead of recording through zoom as 7 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.600 we usually do, we actually held this over on X 8 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.600 through a space and so that's why if the sound 9 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:38.719 sounds a little bit different than that's what's going on there. 10 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:40.960 And if you're watching on YouTube, that's why there is 11 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:43.200 not really going to be active video for most of 12 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.240 this episode, even though I'm still posting it over there. 13 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:47.880 So just know that that's what's going on. And I 14 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:49.200 think that we're going to keep doing this for the 15 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:50.679 book club, just kind of a way to get a 16 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:52.880 little bit more exposure and to get a little bit 17 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.320 more involved in the community. I mean, after all, our 18 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.600 book club. At least this book club is free, and 19 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.399 we'll probably keep doing some free book clubs here and there, 20 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:04.359 and so this is the opportunity. If if you see 21 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:06.599 this happening live on X, feel free to jump in 22 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:08.519 or you know, pay attention to when we're going to 23 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.519 schedule these. Feel free to jump into these conversations. Whether 24 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:13.159 you've actually read the text or you just want to 25 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.400 join the conversation, either as a listener or an actor participant, 26 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:19.079 You're more than welcome to do so. If we're hosting 27 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:20.560 over there, and so keep an eye out for that 28 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:22.840 I from not already make sure you're following me over 29 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:25.799 at andrew In Snyder, although there's a pretty good chance 30 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:28.680 you are if you've found this podcast, because again there's 31 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:30.359 a pretty good chance of this is how you found 32 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.400 that podcast, because that'd be my main platform. All right, well, 33 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:38.239 let's go ahead and jump right into this conversation, which 34 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:43.040 included Kyle and Chase and obviously me on Augustin's Confessions 35 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.560 book seven and eight. Oh and actually one last thing 36 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:48.959 before we jump into that conversation, as a reminder, the 37 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.959 next course is coming up on plato stoicism until we 38 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.319 have Faces, and that begins the week of August third. 39 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:58.519 So next week, if you fear listening to this shortly 40 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:00.920 after it comes out, we're going to be taking a 41 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.680 look at Plato's fato, which, in my reckoning, is actually 42 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.280 the most important companion text to go along with Till 43 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.120 We Have Faces, I would say even more so than 44 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:14.159 the myth of Psyche in Cupid, as important as that 45 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.960 is obviously like that that's what Lewis is really working 46 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:21.319 off of, But as far as the philosophical even the 47 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:24.800 theological movements that he's using, I think that the Fato 48 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.479 from Plato is actually probably the most important companion text. 49 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:30.319 And then also will be taking a look at some 50 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.800 Stoic philosophers, Seneca Epictitis and Emperor Marcus Aurelius, given the 51 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:39.319 importance of Stoicism in this story, especially through the mouth 52 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.840 of the Fox. And so whether you've read Till We 53 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.879 Have Faces before, you've read these other philosophers before, or 54 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:47.280 you haven't, I think this will be a very profitable 55 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:49.800 study to go further up and further into what Lewis 56 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.840 is doing in what he believed to be his greatest novel. 57 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:54.520 And I tend to agree to that. And so if 58 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:55.879 you want to join that course, a few ways of 59 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.400 doing that either become a Tier three patron monthly or 60 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:01.560 annual over on patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind, or 61 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:03.879 you can just purchase the course outright through the shop 62 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.800 at Patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. All right, now, 63 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:12.599 let's get to that conversation. Come to the very first 64 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.280 Mythic Mind space over on x. It's my first time 65 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.800 hosting one of these, and so sorry if anything goes wrong, 66 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.520 but I think we'll be all right here. All right. 67 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.159 Good to see Kyle and Chase here. They've been the 68 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:30.439 regulars throughout this book club. Good to see Reverend David here. 69 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.680 Thank you for joining us, and for anyone else who 70 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.560 stops by. You know, I am recording this to Cino 71 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:42.879 for the Mythic Mind podcast, and anybody is welcome to 72 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.479 jump into the conversation here, whether you are actively you know, 73 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.159 reading along with us in the Confessions, you've read it before, 74 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:51.759 you don't know anything about Augustin, you just want to 75 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.960 join the conversation. You're more than welcome to do so 76 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:58.159 along the way. But for now, I want to begin 77 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:02.400 as we've been doing by reading a passage from this 78 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.960 section of the Confessions that we've been working on. I'm 79 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.280 gonna start with a passage from book seven, which, if 80 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:12.120 you're reading along with the Sheed translation is over on 81 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:16.000 page one one, and this really sets the tone for 82 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.199 what's going to be happening in book seven, So let 83 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:20.800 me read that. It's kind of a long passage, but 84 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:23.879 bear with me. I sought for the origin of evil, 85 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:26.680 but I sought in an evil manner and failed to 86 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:29.399 see the evil that was there. In my manner of inquiry, 87 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.759 I ranged before the eyes of my mind the whole creation, 88 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.720 both what we are able to see, earth and sea 89 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:38.879 and air, and stars and trees and mortal creatures, and 90 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.759 what we cannot see, like the firmament of the heaven above, 91 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:45.240 and all its angels and spiritual powers. Though even these 92 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.199 I imagined as if they were bodies, disposed, each in its 93 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:51.680 own place. And I made one great mass of God's creation, 94 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.040 distinguished according to the kinds of bodies in it, whether 95 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.000 they really were bodies or only such bodies as I 96 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.519 imagined spirits to be. I made it huge, not as 97 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.000 huge as it is, which I had no means of knowing, 98 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:07.079 but as huge as might be necessary, though in every 99 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:11.079 direction finite. And I saw you Lord, in every part, 100 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:16.439 containing and penetrating it, yourself excumate, yourself altogether, infinite, as 101 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:20.399 if your being were a sea, infinite and immeasurable everywhere, 102 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.959 although it's still only a sea, and within it there 103 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.439 were some mighty but not infinite sponge, and that sponge 104 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.920 filled in every part with the immeasurable sea. Thus I 105 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:35.199 conceived your creationist finite and filled utterly by yourself, and 106 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.879 you were infinite. And I said, here is God, and 107 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.720 here is what God has created. And God is good, 108 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.480 mightily and incomparably better than all these. But of his 109 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:49.680 goodness he created them good. And see how he contains 110 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:55.959 and fills them. So with that passage, Augustine really deals 111 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.759 with this philosophical problem here of who is God and 112 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.360 what is God in relation to the world that He's made. 113 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.720 And at this time, you know he's he's already detailed 114 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:10.160 some of his philosophical journey that's very much tied to 115 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.000 his biographical journey, which I suppose I should briefly review 116 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:18.120 at this point. And so Augustine was born to a 117 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:22.279 Christian mother, Monica, and a pagan father, and so he 118 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.720 was raised to know the faith, but he certainly didn't 119 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:28.639 embrace it in his youth. And so he's he throws, 120 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.160 he throws himself off into all kinds different, less of 121 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.839 the flesh as well as less of the mind as 122 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:40.560 he is pulled by various philosophical cults and sets and heresies. 123 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:46.040 He finds his way first to Carthage, where he teaches rhetoric, 124 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.639 but the students didn't really treat him very well there, 125 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:51.279 you know, they didn't show up on time, they didn't 126 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:53.720 respect him. That just was part of their culture. And 127 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.560 so he decides to lead Carthage and go to Rome, 128 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.240 where he thinks he'll be better valued by his students, 129 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.439 but then they stiff him on the payments, and so 130 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.000 that doesn't really go very well either. Eventually he finds 131 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.800 his way over to Milan, where he meets with Ambrose, 132 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.439 who is going to be pivotal in his conversion to Christianity, 133 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:15.800 to Orthodox Christianity. But along the way he he as 134 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.759 I said, goes through these philosophical stages. For a time. 135 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:22.040 He's with the Manicheans, who are kind of like this 136 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:28.560 mix of Zoroastrianism and Christian heresy. They believe that good 137 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:31.079 and evil kind of have this. I don't I don't 138 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:32.800 know any yang's the right way to frame it, but 139 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.639 they're they're competing substances. It is the best way to 140 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.240 understand it. And so he had this idea of a 141 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:42.879 competing substance between goodness and evil, but that that led 142 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.839 to some problems like Okay, if God is the creator, 143 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:48.600 then like how do we get the substance of evil? 144 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:50.560 Like did God create evil? And if so, he doesn't 145 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:52.759 seem to be very good. And so he he's struggling 146 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:56.000 with with these these issues. At this point, he's largely 147 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:00.439 moved beyond that and now he's he's just ruggling to 148 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:04.439 understand God outside of that paradigm, and he doesn't know 149 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.639 how to conceptualize it. And so in that passage, I 150 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.680 just read like it sounds really, it sounds good if 151 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.639 you're not really paying attention to what he's saying, right, 152 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:14.560 it seems like he's glorifying the magnitude of God. But 153 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:17.519 really what he's doing is he's he's essentially identifying God 154 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:21.480 with the physical order, with the created order, and so 155 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.959 he's actually doing something like pantheism in conflating God with creation. 156 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:30.040 He still just doesn't understand how to understand like spirit 157 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.159 apart from space, and so he's he's falling into this 158 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.080 kind of pantheism that sounds good at first, but then 159 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:37.840 he goes on to say like it was evil and 160 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.799 it's not right. And so that's a long way introducing 161 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.039 what's going on here in book seven. This is this 162 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:47.399 first pair of books that we're looking at. But I've 163 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.639 monologue probably too long, and so I would love to 164 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:52.440 hear from some of you, especially Kyle, Chase and the others, 165 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.720 if you're you're able to join the conversation regarding just 166 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.960 what has what stood out to you from this book, 167 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.120 and we can take the conversation wherever it goes. Kyle, 168 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.840 you want to pick it up next. I'm sorry, I'm 169 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:09.840 not hearing you. Is anybody else hearing him? It is me, 170 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.799 all right, So see if you can work on that. Jase, 171 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:13.679 you wanna take it up next. 172 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:16.279 Sure? 173 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:21.200 Yeah, It's interesting just to see like his kind of 174 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.240 playing around with where the origin of evil is and 175 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.279 working through it since it seems like kind of a 176 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.000 block of him being able to get further. 177 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:31.080 And the. 178 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:36.279 I guess section right before the one that you read, 179 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.639 I like this one where it's he said, It starts 180 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.080 with I should have looked for you in that truth 181 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.840 and have learned from it where evil is. That is 182 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:47.879 learned the origin of the corruption by which your substance 183 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.039 cannot be violated, for there is no way in which 184 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.240 corruption can affect our God, whether by his will or 185 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.759 by necessity or by accident, For he is God, and 186 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.840 what he wills is good in himself is goodness, whereas 187 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:04.679 to be corrupted is not good. Nor are you against 188 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.200 your will constraint to anything where your will is not 189 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.600 greater than your power. Kind of seeing where he is 190 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:18.600 not relying on scripture in God to answer these questions, 191 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.799 he's trying to kind of like figure out himself. 192 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:26.840 That just seems like a kind of potential for struggle. 193 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.159 Yeah, I mean, as as mentioned in that passage, I 194 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:32.840 read that he recognized he was going about this the 195 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:36.519 entirely wrong way, that in his investigation of the nature 196 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:38.399 or as he's going to find the lack of nature 197 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:42.240 of evil, that he was going about it wrong because 198 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.399 he was still operating something somewhere in this Manichean framework 199 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.720 of understanding evil as a substance that is like ontologically 200 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.759 that is, in its very nature opposed to God. Like, 201 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.480 that's the way he's framing, and I think, if we're honest, 202 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:03.039 that's how a lot of us tend to understand evil. 203 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.720 It's kind of facebook mean, theology where you know, sometimes 204 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.320 I'll see these posts come across that's like, you know, 205 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:14.279 God is is fighting for your soul, and so is 206 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.159 the devil, and then you've got the deciding vote. Like 207 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:19.480 I've seen that that sort of theology meme go around, 208 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.519 and it's this idea that like good and evil are 209 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.200 somewhere on equal on equal footing, like they're they're equal 210 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.919 in power, and it's like there's a question as to 211 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.039 who's gonna win out in the end, and that that's 212 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.519 really a fairly manichy and kind of framework. And Augustine 213 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.559 recognizes that, no, that that's evil because he is he 214 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.519 doesn't think highly enough of God, and so he thinks through, okay, 215 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:49.159 like what what is goodness? And ultimately goodness the good? Right, 216 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:50.919 this is the question that Plato asked, what is the 217 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.559 good that makes good things good? Augustine himself, being very 218 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:59.039 much favorable toward the Platonists of his time, that he 219 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.080 moves this direct. He wants to know what is the 220 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.240 good that makes good things good? And of course, for 221 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:06.399 the Christian the answer is God. God is the good. 222 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.559 He is the font of goodness, as Ethanatius says, And 223 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:15.440 so if God is good, then well, evil is basically 224 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.679 whatever's not God like, whatever is not connected to God, 225 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:23.080 which is of course nothing, because there is no existence 226 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.679 apart from God. That all things were made through the Word, 227 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.679 and nothing was made that wasn't made through Him. As 228 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:32.600 Paul tells us, in Christ, all things are held together. 229 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.879 God is the only independently existing reality. And so what 230 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.559 that means is that anything that exists is upheld by 231 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.159 the act of power of God. Existence itself is fundamentally good. 232 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.000 I'm convinced that this is a necessary Christian philosophical position, 233 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.759 that existence itself is necessarily good because it is directly 234 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.200 tied to the nature, the person, the will of God, 235 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.639 and so evil in this context is not actually a substance. 236 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:06.200 It's actually just the movement away from God. A little 237 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.279 bit later in book seven, he's going to push the 238 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.919 question back a little bit and he's gonna say, Okay, well, 239 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:13.679 how do we account not only for the fall of 240 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.519 Adam and Eve? I mean, okay, maybe we can say that, well, 241 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.720 the devil is involved in there, the devil is involved 242 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.600 in tempting Adam and Eve. But what if we back 243 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:24.120 up that question and deal with the fall of the 244 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.080 devil himself, Like, how can a perfect being with no 245 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.200 external temptation to sin? How can that thing made by 246 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.279 a good God for good purposes? Like, how can that 247 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.440 being fall into sin? How can it rebel against God? 248 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.600 What would even bring up up that idea? And I 249 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.279 think that Augustine answers this about as well as we can. 250 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:50.440 That evil is not actually an external thing, but evil 251 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.000 is an act of the will in turning away from 252 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.039 the greater good of that is God, the good that 253 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.360 makes good things good, and he turned toward lesser goods, 254 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:02.240 And in turning toward lesser goods, you're ultimately facing in 255 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:06.519 the direction of non existence, as you're facing away from God. Now, 256 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.639 as long as you're looking at something right, like maybe 257 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.799 you're sinning through you know, Augustine in his youth, lusting 258 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.440 after the pairs or the camaraderie, or you know, whatever's 259 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.960 inciting him to steal those pairs that he's he might 260 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:22.039 be looking at a good thing. But what makes that 261 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:25.440 a sin, what makes that evil, is that his will 262 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.480 is turned away from the good towards lesser goods. And 263 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.600 in elevating lesser goods above the ultimate good kind of 264 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.320 you lose goodness, which is to say that you're moving 265 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.759 in the direction of non existence. You're you're becoming nothing. 266 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:40.240 Is why in the Great Divorce, you know, the the 267 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:44.360 characters that aren't what they're supposed to be are illusory ghosts, 268 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:49.559 because in looking toward what is illusory, they themselves become illusory. 269 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.879 They lost the substance, the foundation of existence. And I 270 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.000 think that this is I mean, i'm, I'm, I'm very 271 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.039 influenced by by gust and myself, and but I think 272 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.320 that this is probably the most consistent way of understanding 273 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:05.360 evil that's not actually a thing. It's a privation, it's 274 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.919 an absence. As he says in the City of God, 275 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:12.879 that the original evil is in looking away from that light, 276 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.559 which would make us a light if we would set 277 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.759 our eyes upon it. And he kind of approaches that idea, 278 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.679 or he gets that idea, but I would sayless directly 279 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:25.279 in the confessions in this in book seven. So it 280 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:27.279 Takeshi a while to get here, but once he gets here, 281 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:31.000 he recognizes it's not only a philosophical breakthrough, but that 282 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:34.519 it's it's a theological breakthrough, it's an existential breakthrough. In 283 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:38.720 recognizing the distinction of God's independence compared to what is 284 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.559 corruptible in the world that he has created. And so 285 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.240 there's I think there's a lot of real spiritual value 286 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:51.080 in his epiphany that goes beyond mere philosophical value understood. 287 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:55.200 If we understand there's that separate things. Cool, Kyle, do 288 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.879 you want to try again about now? There you are? 289 00:15:59.000 --> 00:15:59.240 Well? 290 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:00.519 There you are? Yep, I hear you. 291 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.120 All right, perfect, Chase gave me a Chase gave me 292 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:07.840 the tip. Okay, yeah, Andrew, I can hear you. I 293 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.440 can listen to moologue forever. You said that you thought 294 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:12.200 you took too long. I didn't think he's so long enough. 295 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:16.639 Now I think I think reading Augustine in particular, the 296 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.399 way he begins to see God, I think through the 297 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:24.159 Platonists as sort of this uh imaterial and viable, greatest 298 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:30.320 good right, And so he gets as far as he can, 299 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.240 he gets as close to an understanding of God as 300 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.879 he can through natural revelation and natural philosophy. He gets 301 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.879 he gets as far as human reason can take him. 302 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.159 And that's really the lens his own reason through which 303 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.600 we've seen his entire journey, his entire biography. Yet he 304 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.840 also says outright that while philosophy can teach him, that 305 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:55.240 philosophy can't teach him about Christ right, Philosophy can't teach 306 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:58.639 about the word made flesh that comes specifically through special 307 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:04.519 revelation alone. And he's falling into these things like pantheism, 308 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:06.200 you know, a man of keyism and all of these 309 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:11.920 things because he has not yet come to terms yet 310 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.680 with with the God Man Jesus himself. 311 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.960 Yeah, exactly. I love that passage when he's talking about 312 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.240 the value that he saw on the Platonists and what 313 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:26.920 he didn't find there looking back as a Christian, what 314 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.720 found him wanting And you know, I'm just gonna again, 315 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.119 I'm gonna read a fairly long passage here because as 316 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.839 somebody myself who very much appreciates Plato, he's probably my 317 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:44.119 favorite of the pre modern pagan philosophers. I mean, no 318 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.799 surprise that I have camaraderie with the likes of Lewis 319 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.160 and Augustine here. But Augustin here does a great job 320 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.799 of demonstrating that he's not just a Platonist. He is 321 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.279 a Christian Platonist, which means that he sees the value 322 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:01.480 that Plato has to offer. But he's going to he's 323 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:03.000 going to sift him. He's not going to take them, 324 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.480 you know, whole cloth. He's going to take what is valuable, 325 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.039 and he's going to leave the rest. And so here's 326 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:09.960 what he says about what he got from the Platonists. 327 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.480 And this is book seven, section nine. And first you 328 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.440 will to show me how you resist the proud and 329 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:18.880 give grace to the humble, and how with great mercy 330 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:20.880 you have shown men the way of humility in the 331 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:24.240 word sorry, in the word that was made flesh and 332 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:27.119 dwelt among men. Therefore you brought in my way by 333 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.200 means of a certain man, an incredible conceited man, some 334 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.519 books of the Platonists translated from Greek into Latin. In 335 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.880 them I found, though not in the very words, yet 336 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.839 the thing itself improved by all sorts of reasons. That 337 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.200 in the beginning was the Word, and the word was 338 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.880 with God, and the Word was God. The same was 339 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.920 in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, 340 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.960 and without him was made. Nothing that was made in 341 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.079 him was life, and the life was the light of men. 342 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:55.720 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness 343 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.200 did not comprehend it. And yet in those same writings 344 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.960 that the soul of man, though it gives testimony to 345 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.559 the light, yet it is not itself the light, but 346 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.799 the word, God himself is the true light, which enlightens 347 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.599 every man that comes into this world, and that he 348 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.960 was in the world, and the world was made by him, 349 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.119 and the world knew him not. And so Augustin says, 350 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.480 like I got all of that basically John's prologue. I 351 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:23.480 got all of that in Plato, which it is remarkable, 352 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:25.759 and like I get exactly what he's saying. I mean, 353 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.039 you know, when when you read Plato, when when you 354 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:34.559 read the the you know Phedro, or you read the Tmayas, 355 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.480 his creation account, like Augustine says that God, which he 356 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:43.200 uses and capital g God, like Augustine Aristotle, that they 357 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.279 at the very least, I think we can say they 358 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.119 move in a monotheistic direction. Whether or not we want 359 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.400 to call the strict monotheist or not, I don't know. 360 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.920 I don't know if I want to make that hard claim, 361 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.279 but they at least move in a monotheistic direction. And 362 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.559 in his creation account in the Tamayas, Plato says that 363 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.519 God fashion was formless and void through his word. I 364 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:05.559 mean that's very much in line with what we get 365 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:07.680 in the Genesis account, is very much what we get 366 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.480 in John's prologue, which I think is just remarkable. And 367 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.440 so Gustin is like, I found all of that in Plato, 368 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.039 But I did not read in those books that he 369 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.079 came unto his own, and his own received him, not 370 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.640 but to as many as received him. He gave power 371 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.319 to be made the sons of God, to them that 372 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.400 believed in his name. Again, I found in them that 373 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.400 the Word of God was born, not a flesh, nor 374 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.640 a blood, nor the will of man, nor the will 375 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.279 of flesh, but of God. But I did not find 376 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.599 that the Word became flesh. And then he goes on 377 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.640 further with this. But that gives you the gist of 378 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.839 the idea here that as far as a system of thought, 379 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.480 of understanding where truth, good is, and beauty lay, that 380 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.240 understanding something about the purpose of the human soul and 381 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:55.720 what our teleology is, are our goal where we ought 382 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:58.240 to be headed. It's like all of that you can 383 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:02.799 find in Plato, but don't find in Plato. Is God 384 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.759 coming to us? You see a means of the soul 385 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.200 assenting to God, But we see nothing of God descending 386 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.079 to the human soul to lift us up to actually 387 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.160 provide that that redemption, that active movement of God in history. 388 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.480 That's something you don't find in Plato. And so, and 389 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.319 this is why a number of the Christians of the 390 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:27.039 early Church considered Plato to be preparatory for the Gospel. 391 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:29.079 And Plato play an important role in some of the 392 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.920 early categoral schools. And so that that Plato, he provides 393 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.319 a system of knowledge, but he does not provide the Gospel. 394 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.799 He does not provide us with the incarnate word that 395 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:46.079 raises us up to where God is. And for that reason, 396 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.960 I mean it's ultimately the Christianity is not Platonism, even 397 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:55.359 though there's a lot in Platonism that is Christian. I 398 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.839 think the best way to frame that, And you know, 399 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:00.680 as somebody who appreciates Plato but is first and foremost 400 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.920 a Christian, I just I love the way that Augustine 401 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.240