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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Conona Show.

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I am here today with Trey Garrison and a beautiful view.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there we go.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing, Trey?

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Speaker 2: I am doing great. How are you doing, sir? Thank

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you for having me on, Peter, Yeah, no problem.

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Speaker 1: Tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm a journalist, podcaster and an author. I have

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been in our kind of in our thing, I guess

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going on going on eight years now. And one of

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the biggest projects, in the most rewarding projects I was

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able to participate in, was writing this book, Opioids for

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the Masses, Big Farmer's War on the middle class and

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the working white class. It was a nine month research project,

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probably about six month writing project, and the good folks

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analop Phill Publishing, analot Pill Publishing dot Com, we're able

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to turn it into this one of my favorite I

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love the cover, I love the book, and I'm not

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just blowing to smoke up my own butt. It was

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actually a project with me and my partner, Richard McClure,

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because we really wanted to do something that no one

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had done before, and that is not just look at

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certain Uh, there's that airplane I told you about. Maybe

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it's not picking up on your end. We wanted to

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take a look at the hotspots hit hardest by the

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opioid epidemic and the people hit hardest by the opioid epidemic,

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which is the white working class, and no one had

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done it. They'd look at statistics, they drop somebody into

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some little small town where you know, there's been a

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number of overdoses, some hot spot for overdoses. The guy

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would stay for two or three days and then just file,

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you know, a simple report that really didn't look at

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the big problems going on. And we were able to

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fund a project where I was able to go into

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the Rust Belt, into Appalachia, the Deep South. I started

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actually here in Florida, of all places, my research and

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worked our way up through the Midwest, and I got

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to spend upwards of maybe you know, three, four or

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five weeks at a time in particular small towns talking

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to the people on the front lines, whether it was

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cops or judges or lawyers or healthcare workers or reformed

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addicts or you know, actual current addicts and dealing with

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the problem. And we interwove that story, the narrative there

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and telling their human stories about the struggles they were facing.

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With a bigger picture, look at not only the involvement

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of the pharmaceutical companies, particularly the Purdue Pharma and the

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Sackler family, who really paved the way for this in

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a way that should they should be frog marched to

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jail and facing with due process, actual capital punishment for

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the crimes they have committed. These are these are this

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was This was a soft genisid by by by a

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chemical weapon, essentially. And then we were also able to

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talk to experts in the field of pharmacology at various universities, Brandeis,

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University of Colorado, a few others that explained to us

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in a way that no one has talked about, which is,

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these opioids, for the most part, and I'm not saying

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that they're never necessary, but for the most part, the

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way they are prescribed, and the way they had been

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prescribed going on the last thirty years, was not only

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unnecessary but criminal. Now, obviously, if somebody is in some

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sort of you know, dealing with some sort of bone

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cancer or some sort of post op situation, obviously you

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need stronger pain killers. You know, we understand the issue

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of emergent pain. I myself in twenty twelve had shoulder

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surgery and it was orthoscopic, but it was a pain

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in the butt. And then I had to have this

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big ice pack thing that flowed cold water over and

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I was stuck in my chair for like four days,

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and they gave me these opioids and there but for

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the grace of God. Because at the time my ex

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wife or my wife at the time, was a psychiatric

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nurse practitioner, and she was very well versed on the

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addiction issues, on mental health issues, and I had always

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had sort of that rug, you know, well, if you're depressed,

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just go out and do something. Oh if you're if

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you're addicted to something, just shake it off, you know,

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white knuckle it. And she actually made me more sensitive

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and more understanding of the issues involved. And it was

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three days into taking vicodin on I think every six

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hours that I was sitting there going, well, I'm bored,

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I can't do anything. Maybe I'll have one at three hours,

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because they do really make you feel good. Somebody that

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I talked to and interviewed said that the first time

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you have an opioid, it's like being kissed on the

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lipspot God, and they're not entirely wrong, even if that's

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a little bit of a blasphemous comparison. But I realized that,

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you know, if I wasn't careful, I was going to

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this could become my full time job. My full time

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job could become taking opioids. So I hated them model too,

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and I said, you need to treat me like a

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patient and only give this to me as prescribed, and

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maybe in about three days we need to look at

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just getting me off this, because I can easily see

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how I can get addicted. This was long before this

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became a passion for me. This was just my own

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personal experience with it, and I just got lucky to

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be honest. So that's what I've been doing. That's that's

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what my background is. My background. I was a investigative reporter,

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magazine writer. I wrote a few really horrible I'm glad

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they got pulled fiction books, science fiction that nobody should

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be forced to read. And in fact, maybe that should

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be punishment for you know, when for minor crimes, is

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you have to read those books that I wrote. But

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this one I'm particularly proud of, and I really feel

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like the work we did was important because no one

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had done that before.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for doing it, because I have done

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episodes on the opioid epidemic before, but mostly from a

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the economics of it. And we've talked about what we're

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going to talk about, how people get prescribed it and

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they get pulled off of it and now they're hooked

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and they have to go elsewhere, and they eventually go

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to the streets. But one of the things that you

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talked about right off the bat in the book is

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that oxy was sold as a safer painkiller even though

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it was opium based, and they said that there was

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they immediately said there were no addiction problems with it.

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So and also just throw this out there right away

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so people know you wrote this. I believe this was

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published in twenty twenty one, and in twenty twenty one

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you had said at that point there was an estimate

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four hundred to five hundred thousand deaths associated with this,

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which I assume has climbed, and not only due to

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what has been prescribed, but the fact that people get

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off of it and then they go to heroin, fentanyl,

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things like that. So talk a little bit about how

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it was sold to people. Or the soul to doctors. Really,

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you had to sell to the doctors first. Well you

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have to understand.

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Speaker 2: To understand that, you have to go to the background

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of Sackler family with Purdue Pharma. They were Eastern European

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immigrants Jewish family that came over in the I think

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the twenties or thirties. You'll have to forgive me on

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a few if I get a few details a little

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bit off. It was four years ago that we actually

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did the research on this book, twenty nineteen, and I've

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kept myself reasonably refreshed, but I don't have every stat

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in my head anymore. But they were they brought, what's

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the kindest way to say this, they brought innovative marketing

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strategies to pharmaceuticals that had previously been looked upon by

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the medical industry as entirely unethical and entirely detrimental to

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the patients that they took care of. And one of

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the early projects that they did was in the sixties

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with you know, Mother's Little Helper, the early xanax type

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anti depressed or not anti depressants, anti anxiety medications and

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that sort of thing. And so they were instrumental in

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they didn't have at the law at the time did

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not allow for the advertising direct to consumer of these products.

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But they went really hard with the doctors and they

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were they started their plan of they'd buy up these

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medical journals and put their own people in charge, and

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then they issued these studies and arguments that doctors need

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to prescribe this, they need to prescribe this more, there's

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nothing harmful in doing this, and so in the early

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sixties they sort of laid out the template for this,

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but it was in the nineteen nineties of the late

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eighties nineteen nineties that they really went hardcore with this.

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They set up the American Pain Management Association, the American

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Pain Association again, I'm sorry, it's one of those two names,

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and it was an advocacy lobby group that pushed for

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changes in the law. So that you know, it was

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only in the nineties that you started seeing direct advertising

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on television for pharmacy, for prescription pharmaceuticals, and in particular,

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they lobbied for various changes in the medical industry. One

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of them was adding pain as a fifth vital sign.

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Doctors always check you know your blood pressure, your heart rate, uh, pulse, socks,

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that sort of thing. They said pain has to be

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part of that, that that should be an integral part

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of what a doctor deals with. And they also issued

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UH or lobbied for these changes where on exits from hospitals,

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patients would you know, you can normally fill out these

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UH surveys how they you know, how they perceived their care,

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how they perceived, you know, what was done. And these

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surveys were in part used or remuneration through insurance companies

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as well as through Medicare and Medicaid. They had been there,

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how was your pain at the end of your hospital

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stay or your hospital visit. So it became more and

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more or a thing where doctors started getting it in

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their heads, we have to make sure that the person's

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not in pain. And that's really if you think about

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it from a philosophical even the medical standpoint, that's a

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silly idea because while you know, no one wants to

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see another person in pain, pain is often a warning sign.

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It's a it's a thing that keeps you from doing

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the same thing so that you don't injure yourself further.

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So like if you've sprain, if you've dislocated your patella,

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if you've dislocated your shoulder, if you've broken this or that,

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the pain is what keeps you from stressing it until

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it's better. Now, obviously I'm just talking of broad things,

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and so like again, postop somebody who's had a serious surgery,

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somebody's dealing with the pain of certain cancers. That's not

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what I'm talking about. I'm talking about They've made it

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to where it was the ordinary daily visits. It was

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the ordinary routine sort of things where oh, well, so

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you're in pain, well before you let me go, let

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me let me give you a prescription for ten various

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you know, vicodin or or oxycoton or whatever it is.

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And then constant, you know. And then concurrent with that,

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Purdue Pharma came up with oxycotton, which they just blatantly

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lied in their research and in their marketing materials to

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the doctors, which was, oh, well, this we have a

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time release coding on these, and this thing is not

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as addictive as regular We've processed in a way that

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it's not as addictive as regular opioid, so don't worry

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about it. So in nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six,

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they launched oxycotton and within two years had the market

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share of the painkiller market. And that was sort of

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the we had been started trending towards the idea of

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pain management and overprescription of opioids. But that was the

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watershed moment. And since that time, since I think it

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was nineteen ninety nine and you cited the statistics that

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we quoted from twenty twenty of five hundred seven hundred

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thousand deaths, it has we're breaching a million, a lot

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sooner than we thought. Because what has happened is over

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the last twenty years, since this has become such a

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common practice, is there have been and flows. There have

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been attempts to correct the ship. In particular, it got

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really bad in the late twenty tens, early two thousand teens,

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and by then you had some movements within government, within

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certain regulatory bodies to curtail the prescription of these opioids.

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And you know, I'm not saying that they there. Maybe

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maybe their hearts were in the right place, and maybe

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some of the policies were decent but didn't go far

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enough or went too far, But there was a downtick

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twenty seventeen, I think was the high point, high water

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mark at the time we were doing the research, and

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are twenty seventeen in nineteen twenty nineteen. We looked at

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twenty seventeen as the high water market and we thought

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even though it was a minor decline, it was starting

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to tick down as a result of these policies. But

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what we found on the street, on what we found

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in our research, and what has since emerged since the

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publication of the book, is these where they had curtailed it,

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you have actually an increase in overdoses because, as you said,

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people will turn to the street version of opioids, which

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is heroin, and heroin is dangerous enuff as it is,

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but then we also have the concurrent problem of fentnyl

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started coming to the country, and that's a synthetic opioid

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that's far more dangerous, far more in control, usually made

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in sheep Chinese labs with no oversight, so that you know,

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you don't know if you're getting you know what strength,

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what garbage goes into it. But it is just the

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high number of overdoses that has since happened is in

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part because of the addition of opioids to these street drugs.

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Or the opioid the fentnyl directly. Let me also dangerous, sorry,

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let me let me.

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Speaker 1: Let me quote you. You said in the book, you said,

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every once in a while, you come across a number

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that crystallizes reality and it can stop you cold. For us,

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it was this. According to data from the CDC, overdoses

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involving opioids killed more than forty seven thousand Americans in

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twenty seventeen. More than a third of those depths involved

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the legal prescription opioids. In twenty nineteen, there were eighty

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one thousand drug over drug overdose depths, of which the

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CDC estimates more than seventy percent were opioid related YEP.

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Speaker 2: One of the problems with measuring this is that there

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are multiple different factors that go into and into how

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we measure it, as well as the various high would

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you say, inflection points, overdoses, overdoses by death, actual overprescription.

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Because we were looking at these all and we were

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targeting what communities we wanted to go into. And you

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also had concurrent with the around the twenty sixteen, when

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government was starting to occasionally you know, at state levels,

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crack down on this. You had the movement to give

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all first respond narcan. So you had sort of a

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false sense that maybe the problem was going down because

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you have fewer overdose deaths, But if you look deeper

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into the data, you had a rising number of actual overdoses.

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So while the narcan thing was good for saving lives,

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it masked the problem. And what we've seen since the

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publication of the book, with the COVID lockdowns and all that,

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we saw an increase in the number of deaths of SPARE.

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We saw an increase in the number of people recidivating,

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recidivating on you know, drinking and using drugs because you know,

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they're locked in their house, they have nothing to do,

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nowhere to go, you know, they couldn't go to their meetings,

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they couldn't you know, do their sobriety steps or whatever.

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And so we had a huge increase. And then last year,

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I think, and I don't have the numbers in front

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of me, but we hit another high water mark over

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one hundred thousand deaths by overdose. And it's only going

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to get worse. It's only going to get worse because

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there's no serious concern about the people who are dying.

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I actually had pushback from people, and particularly even on

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the cover title, the part of it work, it says

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the white working class because they would say, well, you know,

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the opioid crisis affects all Americans. Well, sure it does,

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but it disproportionately affects white Americans, and particularly working class

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white Americans. And if you sit there and say that

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white people don't have unique interests, if you say that

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white people don't have unique challenges and problems that need

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to be addressed by government or by society, well you

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sound like an asshole. You know that's what you are.

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I mean, you're sitting there denying an entire people and

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in denying the problems that they're facing. What does that

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make you? That makes you an asshole.

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Speaker 1: Here's another quote from the book. It says, we now

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live in America where working class, predominantly white, rural people

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whose parents and grandparents would have spat at the idea

300
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of shooting up are now living and dying with needles

301
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in their arms.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I got to spend I This was a like

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I said, this was a passion project for me and Richard.

304
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But I'm not gonna lie and say that there weren't

305
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some enjoyable moments of doing the research, I got to

306
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go to parts of the country that it doesn't matter

307
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where you are, what you're doing. If you have a vacation,

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if you have a couple of weeks off, if you

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have a little bit saved up, you're going to go

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to the beach, You're gonna go snow skiing, You're gonna

311
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do those kind of things. You're not going to get

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to always visit parts of rural America, fly for America,

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whatever the elites want to call it. And I had

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not actually spent much time in Kentucky, out in the hollers,

315
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or in West Virginia, and I got to meet some

316
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of the most amazing people. These are the quote unquote hillbillies.

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These are the you know, people who just you know,

318
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have in rural Appalaysia that don't really give a damn

319
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about the world's problems. They worry about their own communities

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or their own hollers, and they would welcome us into

321
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their homes, give us real moonshine. And these are you know,

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these are country boys and some of smoked weed, that

323
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sort of thing. Nothing that you would not expect. But

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what we found was because I dealt with some folks

325
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who had beaten their addiction, people who had been drug

326
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mules driving down to Florida back during the heyday of

327
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the pill mills in Florida. They would put them on

328
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a bus and send you know, a dozen people down

329
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there to hit to doctor shop and then hit a

330
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whole bunch of pharmacies and bring it all back to

331
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Kentucky or to West Virginia, that's those locations, and fled

332
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the area with it. But they were dealing with this,

333
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and like I said, these are people that you know,

334
00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:36,839
a couple of generations ago. Even when they came, you know,

335
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their sons and daughters came back from Vietnam. You know,

336
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there was moonshine, there was weed. But you take that

337
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heroin stuff, you take those needles, and that's the city problem.

338
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That's not for us. But they come along and it's

339
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almost like this story of like Elvis, if you don't

340
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,039
know some of the stories about him, he would say,

341
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you know, I don't take drugs. I've never taken drugs.

342
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I take medicine. And so these people who had previously worked,

343
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you know, when they could still work, they you know,

344
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worked at the coal mines, and that's repetitive and that's

345
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a hard job and you get a lot of repetitive

346
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stress injuries. They were targeted by these companies to be flooded,

347
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to to market to their doctors in the local areas,

348
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or to bring in doctors. As I found out, there's

349
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a whole lot of doctors from India that set up

350
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shop that have absolutely no compulsion about writing all these

351
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destructive prescriptions because they're getting paid. And it changed the

352
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attitude of these folks, people who, like I said, had

353
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never who would have chased you out of town if

354
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you had said, you know, I want to bring heroin

355
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to this this part of the country. They've been like

356
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no and no. But their attitude now was, well, no,

357
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the doctor gave it to me. It's it's in medicine,

358
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and that's that's really. That's to me, Like one of

359
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the biggest crimes is the redefinition of these words in

360
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a way that makes the unacceptable acceptable.

361
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Speaker 1: Before I get into talking about and asking about whether

362
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this was targeted or not, you had already brought up

363
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West Virginia and I copy and pasted this that I

364
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,720
needed to read this directly, and you said, and yet

365
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no alarm sounded at either the CDC or FDA. Even

366
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as prescriptions and refills spiral beyond plausible numbers, distributors simply

367
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loaded up pharmacies with more pills and collected record profits

368
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on the burgeoning sales. Records in congressional testimony from twenty

369
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eighteen show that from two thousand and seven to twenty twelve,

370
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distributors sent more than seven hundred and eighty million hydrocodon

371
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and oxycodon pills into West Virginia. Not into the country,

372
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this is into West Virginia. And that broke down to

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four hundred and thirty three pills for every man, woman,

374
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and child. And then you break it down even further.

375
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One town of four one hundred residents was sent nine

376
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million opioid pills in two years. Another less than eighteen

377
00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:12,759
hundred citizens received sixteen point five million in ten years.

378
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Another population twenty nine hundred received almost twenty one million

379
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,319
pills during that decade.

380
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Speaker 2: Was this.

381
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Speaker 1: Was this on purpose? Was this about profit? Was it

382
00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:39,079
about targeting a population that is I mean openly demonized

383
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on TV now, I mean on the evening news white people.

384
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Were they targeted?

385
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Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I've gone back and forth on the issue

386
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of whether it was a malicious targeting in the sense

387
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of we just want to do this to destroy these people,

388
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or was it for profits? And I guess I've come

389
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,359
to the conclusion that it was both and kind of interlinked.

390
00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:04,960
If we can make a profit and be harmful to

391
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,000
you know, this population that we either you know, on

392
00:22:08,039 --> 00:22:10,519
the on the one hand, don't care about, or on

393
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:12,880
the other hand, we actively dislike like I said, they

394
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,039
use terms like flyover country. They see rural America, white

395
00:22:16,079 --> 00:22:19,119
America as a problem. They see this as an impediment

396
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,319
to their agendas, and we if you look through the

397
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:29,799
emails between executives at these companies, they they view white

398
00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:34,559
people as an alien population, as a lesser population. And

399
00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:36,319
like I said, a lot of these companies have these

400
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:41,720
like the Sackle of Family or various Jewish CEOs and

401
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:46,319
all that that. You know, they see profit first. They

402
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:50,400
see this as we're another tribe. So what is done

403
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,000
to us if it's harmful? Oh, well, you know, I

404
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:56,599
still made my buck, right. You see the emails between

405
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,640
them talking about how when certain states would make changes

406
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,480
and make more difficult for them to peddle their wares,

407
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,000
they would make jokes about, well, it looks like old

408
00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:07,359
Jed's gonna have to be a pillbilly somewhere else, will

409
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,039
have to go Instead of Florida, he will have to

410
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,839
go to Tennessee to get his drugs. The callousness was

411
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,559
absolutely criminal and outrageous, and it shows that it was intentional.

412
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:19,759
It was not a matter of, oh, well, we're trying

413
00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:22,440
to provide this, you know, helpful service and some people

414
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,440
are abusing it. It was we know what's going on,

415
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,720
We know exactly what's going on, and we don't care,

416
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,160
and we are going to turn billions some profit. There

417
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,960
was an email in the company h short like a

418
00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:39,000
year after the launch of Oxycon in the nineteen nineties

419
00:23:39,279 --> 00:23:41,599
where they said, we're going to blanket this country with this.

420
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,440
Who says that? Who says that this is you know,

421
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:52,279
something we know is dangerous, it can be abused. Our

422
00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:54,039
attitude is we're gonna blanket the country because it'll make

423
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,759
us billions, and it did. So. I went back and forth.

424
00:23:58,839 --> 00:24:01,680
I you know, I'm a human being. I don't like

425
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,920
to There's there's some part of me that doesn't like

426
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,680
to ascribe the worst intense to people who are doing

427
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:10,960
the worst things that I always want to try to

428
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,160
like what's the real thing going on here? Because I

429
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,720
don't like to live in a world where everybody's a

430
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:22,119
cartoon villain or cartoon hero. It's silly. I've come to conclusions.

431
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,240
These are These are worse than cartoon villains. These are

432
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,160
like bond villains. These are these are people that human

433
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,640
life means nothing, profits mean everything, And they still to

434
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,400
this day deny any culpability or what little that they've

435
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,680
admitted to. They've done under the most intense retigious pressure

436
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:43,000
and criminal pressure. So I don't think that there's anything

437
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,240
positive that you can say about what their motives were.

438
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:48,880
And I think it. Whatever you think the worst of

439
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,559
their motives are, you're probably right.

440
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting that we went through a living on

441
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,559
through two years and almost it will be three years soon.

442
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,599
Of you could say, some people make the argument that

443
00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:05,799
that happened naturally, that that was it came from nature,

444
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,839
it came from a bat. Okay, okay, I'll give that

445
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,720
this didn't This didn't happen by accident. This was planned.

446
00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:21,079
This was put together and propagandized by people with the

447
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,359
money and the power and the influence to do it.

448
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,279
Speaker 2: You can see that. And what I don't know, if

449
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:27,640
we want to skip to the end in the sense

450
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,440
of what little justice has happened, They the deals they

451
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,680
cut to avoid culpability, the things they were allowed to

452
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,759
do to preserve their profits in particularly like the Sackler

453
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,160
family while they were under investigation, while they were facing

454
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,279
multiple class action lawsuits from the various states attorney generals, sorry,

455
00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:56,039
attorney's general, while they were facing lawsuits and pressure from

456
00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:00,039
the government, knowing that one of the results of the

457
00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:02,720
these classiction lawsuits could be, you know, a siege of

458
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,880
their funds and that sort of thing. They were allowed

459
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,759
to ship offshore to offshore banks, billions of personal funds. Billions,

460
00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:12,519
not just oh well, I'm gonna save a couple of

461
00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:14,799
million from my retirement or you know, set aside my

462
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,160
little skape fund. We're talking billions. It's insane. And then

463
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,880
the actual judgments that they got in particularly the Cycler family,

464
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,319
but really a lot of these other companies, there was

465
00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:30,880
no criminal liability they were. Within the case of the Sacklers,

466
00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:33,480
part of the deal that they signed was that they

467
00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:37,359
would not be liable for future lawsuits, you know, and

468
00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,880
other criminal, criminal or civil liabilities. And they would have

469
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,599
and they would give over a small token billion or two.

470
00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:46,240
But we're talking about a company that I think at

471
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,119
its high point it was over twenty billion dollars and

472
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,079
a family that had you know, banked a lot of

473
00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:55,880
that and set it aside away from the company. It's

474
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,799
easy to look at some of the judgments they got

475
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:00,640
and say, well, justice was done because we're talking billion dollars.

476
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:05,200
But that's not restorative. That's not that made no one hole.

477
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,960
That money was you know, whatever was done with it

478
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,480
by the states, you know, got redirected. It's not going

479
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,720
back into those communities that I would visited that were

480
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,440
shattered by this. And it's not gonna even if some

481
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,319
of it trickled down in some small amounts of damages

482
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:20,799
to some of the worst cases, and it's not I'm saying,

483
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:23,559
even if it did, but it's not. It doesn't restore

484
00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:26,759
entire communities that were stored by this. And in particular,

485
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:29,200
what story I like to tell is about Jasper, Alabama.

486
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,119
I'm actually from the Deep South, and I had no

487
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,880
idea that Jasper was a cold town. I grew up

488
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,759
not too far from there. I just didn't know, didn't

489
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,480
know when I was a kid, and I spent about

490
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,400
a month there, and one of the most amazing things

491
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,440
I learned. I was talking to a drug court judge

492
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,640
who was one of the University of Alabama, my alma mater,

493
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,839
who was actually younger than me. And well, that's a

494
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,759
weird moment when you're talking to a judge and you

495
00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:55,039
realize he's younger than you. This is one of those

496
00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:56,799
maturity things where it's just like, oh my god, this

497
00:27:56,839 --> 00:27:59,759
guy's he's a kid, but he's a judge. But no,

498
00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:02,799
he's wonderful guy. But he told me about the history

499
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:05,039
of what had happened in the mid twenty tens in

500
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:10,279
that community in Jasper in the late nineties early two thousands,

501
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,880
the coal my coppliants had shut down and it was

502
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,759
devastating to the community, as it was with a lot

503
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:20,920
of others throughout the throughout Appalaysia. In the mid twenty

504
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,359
ten teens are around twenty thirteen twenty fifteen, a company

505
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,440
came in and said because of the weight energy prices

506
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,920
were and fracking and this and that going on in

507
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,160
the ups and downs of the energy market, it was

508
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,880
economically viable to reopen those coal mines. That meant fifteen

509
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,640
hundred direct jobs in a town of like fifteen thousand.

510
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,559
That's ten percent. You know, that's ten percent job growth instantly,

511
00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:44,680
and that's direct jobs. Because a lot of people don't

512
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,519
like to you know, I think about these things because

513
00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,200
I'm a former business journalist. But when you bring in

514
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,119
a tent, you know, when you increase your workforce by

515
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,319
ten percent, that also has economic implications for the rest

516
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:57,160
of the town. It's good. You're gonna have a whole

517
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,359
bunch of indirect jobs. Drivers, You're going to have business growth.

518
00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:03,480
You're gonna have restaurants, you're gonna have service industry, You're

519
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,920
gonna have all these things that will, you know, cause

520
00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:09,000
a town to flourish. And Jasper is a wonderful little town.

521
00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:13,000
Parts of it. The downtown is just gorgeous. It's very historical.

522
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:16,440
I really enjoyed being there. But you know, you go

523
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,000
outside of the downtown and you're talking about abject poverty

524
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:25,519
among white people, third world poverty. I mean, it was

525
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,039
just heartbreaking to see what I saw. And what he

526
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:32,640
told me was they came to the town, the company

527
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,200
did they wanted to hire and reopen the minds. They

528
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,359
could not find fifteen hundred people who could pass a

529
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,319
drug test, so they had to show their plans. What

530
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:45,000
do you think that does that community? It continues its

531
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:49,920
death it's death spiral. This is a lost opportunity to

532
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,839
reignite this, to reinvigorate this town is gone. And you

533
00:29:54,839 --> 00:29:56,839
tell me that some part of the settlement with the

534
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,720
various class action lawsuits, you know, none of that money's

535
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:04,480
going to that community. And what could go to that

536
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,039
community to make it whole again, because none of this

537
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:08,279
would have happened if it wasn't for them in the

538
00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:10,720
first place. And there's no there's no remuneration, there's no

539
00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:14,839
making it whole, there's no In what we've seen, there's

540
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,079
still has not been justice.

541
00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:20,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at Jasper right now and

542
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:26,960
it's just looks like a very typical Alabama town. And yeah,

543
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,000
I mean, my mother's family is all from western Pennsylvania

544
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:37,440
coal mine towns. My grandfather did coal mining when he

545
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:43,319
was young. Yeah, those very easy people to target. I mean,

546
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:45,720
you're talking about people who you work in a coal

547
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:47,559
mine for ten years, You're going to have pain the

548
00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:50,839
rest of your life, and it's just hey, take this,

549
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,680
it's non addictive. And then it's like okay, I can't

550
00:30:53,680 --> 00:31:01,880
live without this. I had one written written here it

551
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,960
said some people who were living through this. You mentioned

552
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,160
that there were videos of people who just like overdosed

553
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,680
in public, like on benches and things like that, and

554
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,599
this one was insane. Even the survival stories can make

555
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,599
you feel a bone deep kind of sadness. In Jacksonville, Florida,

556
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,240
a young woman candidly told the local news station of

557
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:30,559
her struggles with opioids that started when she was prescribed

558
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:32,960
them at the age of sixteen to alleviate the pain

559
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,359
of ovarian cysts. Twelve years later, she was still fighting addiction.

560
00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:41,680
And this is quoting her. I remember doing the pregnancy test,

561
00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:44,359
putting it on the ground and shooting up while I

562
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,519
was waiting for the test results to come back. Crystal

563
00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:50,839
Harrison sold First Coast News. I was prescribed them for

564
00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:53,720
about two months, and when the prescription ran out, I

565
00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:55,839
started looking in the street for them. I went from

566
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,680
lortab to oxacoton, to heroin to fentanyl, and it was

567
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,799
just and all it was just. It's been a downhill

568
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:10,720
effect since I was sixteen until now eighteen. And that

569
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,759
was a sixteen year old being prescribed. Basically said that

570
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:17,319
a Carolin.

571
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:23,119
Speaker 2: One of the things we found was the first exposure

572
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:29,839
to opioid painkillers for the majority of people who end

573
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,880
up for the majority of people who end up using them,

574
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,640
but also those who end up abusing them. There's a difference. Obviously.

575
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,680
Some people are like I was lucky, Like I said,

576
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,400
I took it for a couple of days and that

577
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,759
was it, that was done. But the first exposure for

578
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:45,359
people who both use them as well as those who

579
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,039
end up being addicted, comes from their dentist and their

580
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:53,480
family doctor. And you know, let's assume the best case

581
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:56,920
scenario that the best motives on the part of these

582
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,400
denist doctors. But you get your wisdom, teeth and rood

583
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,039
and they give you a week sports boxic cotton or

584
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:03,640
they did back in the day. What do you think

585
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,839
that's going to do to a sixteen year old? You know,

586
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,720
they're still trying to figure themselves out. Who you know, uh,

587
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,079
all the troubles that you go through in high school,

588
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,880
all the you know, oh here's something better than you.

589
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,200
I'm not gonna call it with this, but you know,

590
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,920
as I would with beer or whatever.

591
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,599
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, I mean, I was

592
00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:25,880
on the hockey team, and we had access to quote

593
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,720
unquote black beauties, this amphetamine jez yeah, pretty much every

594
00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:33,880
pretty much every athlete in school. And I mean this

595
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,839
is in the eighties. We had access to the pharmaceutical amphetamine.

596
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one of the things that we discovered was

597
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,400
experts in pharmacology that we discussed, we talked about when

598
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,240
we interviewed for this book told us that there's no

599
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:55,799
reason for things like wisdom teeth, removal of sprained you know, sprainds,

600
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:59,599
located limb or something like that, no reason for those

601
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,359
kind of levels of pain relief. And in fact, if

602
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,680
you stack advil or ibuprofen with tail and all, it

603
00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,599
actually gives you like a thirty percent better pain relief

604
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,719
than actual opioence. So there was really no reason for

605
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,679
this had to happen in the first place. It's just

606
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,760
all these doctors and Dennis were sold on the idea

607
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,719
that you need to give true pain relief and this

608
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,079
is the only way to do it, and don't worry,

609
00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:26,960
it's not addictive. It's it's not addictive, don't worry about it.

610
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,599
And it's it's I don't want to I have had

611
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,159
a very career. One of the early things that I

612
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:40,639
did was working in West Memphis, Arkansas as a reporter,

613
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,400
and this was back in the nineties, and we had

614
00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:46,679
very little budget as well as the sheriff's department also

615
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,480
had very little budget. And the town was at an

616
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,679
intersection of two different interstates, so you had a lot

617
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,639
of trucking coming through. Consequently, a lot of accidents, and

618
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,199
the Sheriff's apartment would use us sometimes as reporters would

619
00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:03,760
go to the scene of an accident, but they'd also

620
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,800
have us take photos of the scene for the actual

621
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,559
criminal record or the accent reports and that sort of thing.

622
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,760
So I saw a whole lot of horrible, horrible things

623
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,079
in the sense of mangled bodies, you know, semi truck

624
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:19,679
and car wrecks, never going to be something you want

625
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,079
to think about. And it left a lot of haunting

626
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:24,840
memories of some of the worst things I had seen

627
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,960
up until we started doing the research for this book,

628
00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:31,280
and when I spent some time bedded with the police

629
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,440
in Kentucky in various small towns as well as in Lexington. Lexington,

630
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,000
by the way, again one of those places I might

631
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,199
not have ever visited. Loved the place, great place, great people,

632
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,159
But we went on calls and they would discover things

633
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,440
like and I've described some of it in my book

634
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,960
or in the book with me and Richard, and a

635
00:35:56,039 --> 00:36:00,039
lady would be overdosed on the floor, dead with the

636
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:04,199
child in the room, you know, two year old and

637
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,280
the child when they were they were looking at the

638
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,519
body trying to figure out exactly, you know, the sequence

639
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:13,159
of events. You know, the child's already been taken away

640
00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:16,519
by Child protective Services were at the actual scene, and

641
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:20,199
they realized there's milk around the mom's mouth and so

642
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,519
she's blue or she's dead on the floor. She's been overdosed,

643
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:25,360
and they're like, why is there milk around her mouth?

644
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,960
The child, the baby had thought, well, this is how

645
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,840
we get mommy to wake up, and she started trying

646
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,480
to give it her mom, her milk that you know,

647
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:35,440
the last bottle of milk that their mom had fixed

648
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,760
for before she overdosed. Or there would be you know,

649
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,519
I don't know if you know how bad the exposure

650
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:43,480
of fennel can be when it's in its concentrated form.

651
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,760
Actual you know, officers like opening a trunk with it

652
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,760
stored in the trunk. Just the fumes itself could send

653
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,559
them into an overness situation, and that actually happened as well.

654
00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:59,079
But one of the sites that we went to, here's

655
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:02,119
a baby in a crib. Here's the table they're doing

656
00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:05,199
their sorting, and they're stepping on their product and all that,

657
00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:08,599
and they're overdose on the floor. They're dead, the parents

658
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,000
and then here's the baby's crib, all of two feet

659
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,199
away from this big stack of fentanyl. Things like that.

660
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:17,119
I mean, I'm not going to ever get that out

661
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:21,039
of my brain. And that's the depravity, the horror that

662
00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:25,280
the stuff can bring upon people. And so while I

663
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,599
said earlier that I like to try to find, you know,

664
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,159
assume that, you know, the motives are a little more

665
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:36,400
complex than simple super villain versus you know, broad shant hero.

666
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:41,440
When I think of those scenes, I'm thinking, these really

667
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,079
people are worse than anything. And you know, we can

668
00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:46,639
come up with in fiction as a stand in for

669
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,599
a villain. These people prey upon their fellow man in

670
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,480
a way that you know, conquerors of old, you know,

671
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,039
killers of old, conquerors of old. They would straight up kill. Okay,

672
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,159
and that's horrible, but there's at least some honor in that.

673
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,280
But to string you out on something like this to

674
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400
promise you that's good for you to use the people

675
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,920
you trust most in your life, the doctors, your healthcare providers,

676
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,320
to create situations like this, these scenes of horrible depravity,

677
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,440
like almost biblical evil. No, you don't get any more

678
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,000
benefit of the doubt from me on these things.

679
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just going to take a financial hit and

680
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:31,360
they'll never have to suffer like the people who are suffering.

681
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,559
Speaker 2: Nope, you mentioned.

682
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,599
Speaker 1: Interviewing people who were actually dealing opioids, people who are

683
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:41,239
making the runs of the states and bringing them back.

684
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,440
I would have to assume in a lot of cases,

685
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,719
the people they're dealing to are people in their family,

686
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,719
people they know, people they've grown up with, people they've

687
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:52,719
known their whole lives.

688
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: It's the community.

689
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:58,079
Speaker 1: How do they handle it now? How do they I mean,

690
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:00,639
how do they get past it once they realize exactly

691
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:01,280
what they're doing.

692
00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: I think that that motivates a lot of these people,

693
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,239
because it's not just a matter of getting clean yourself.

694
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:12,159
You know, that's a hard enough struggle, and I think

695
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:14,199
we all should be trying to be more understanding towards

696
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:18,639
people dealing with this. I think that when they start

697
00:39:18,639 --> 00:39:21,559
to realize that that's what really kicks them into high gear.

698
00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:23,960
And that's why I saw so many wonderful stories of

699
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,559
people who had overcome their addiction, and then we're reaching

700
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,920
out and trying to help in their own communities. One

701
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000
lady I interviewed actually in Jasper as well. She ran

702
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,719
she was the head of a women's recovery home. And

703
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,400
if you had met her on the street, if you

704
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,039
had met her in any other social situation, you thought, Okay,

705
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:47,719
she's maybe thirty's. She looks like a former Alabama sorority girl,

706
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,159
you know, slightly conservative, you know, very well put together outfit,

707
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,239
you know, has a kind of cute Alabama sorority girl

708
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,280
look to her whatever. And one of the first things

709
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,760
she told me was about how she went to prison

710
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,679
for to murder in her twenties. She told me about

711
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:09,119
how her parents had actually taught her how to fake injuries.

712
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:11,000
They would load them up in the car and take

713
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:15,920
them around doctor shopping throughout northern Alabama, through southern Tennessee

714
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,599
and through east northeastern Mississippi, and go doctor shopping and

715
00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:24,480
go to you know, sit there and fake their way

716
00:40:24,519 --> 00:40:27,440
through you know, this injury, knowing exactly what to tell

717
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,559
the doctors that they could get these prescriptions and get

718
00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:34,719
them filled. And that was her, you know, her adolescence.

719
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,800
That was her from age ten to about age fifteen.

720
00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:40,719
So it's not just a matter of like people praying

721
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,360
on their own communities. People were praying on their own

722
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,239
families when they're caught up in this. And then she

723
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,119
went to prison as accessory to murder. She it was

724
00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:50,559
one of those situations and I don't recall all the details,

725
00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:52,119
but the long and the short of it was she

726
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:55,079
was present and her boyfriend committed the murder, and so

727
00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:57,360
she did a couple of years, but obviously she wasn't

728
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,679
as culpable. And when she got out, she was clean

729
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,039
and she you know, she'd gone through a program within

730
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:06,119
the prison and she was clean. And when her mom

731
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:08,760
picked her up from prison to take her home, she said,

732
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,760
I need to make a stop. She was going to

733
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,519
pick up drugs and then make another stop on the

734
00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:17,159
way home to sell. And she thought, if I don't

735
00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:20,559
get out of this now right now, they don't get

736
00:41:20,559 --> 00:41:23,159
out of this car, I'm going right back into this

737
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,760
because my parents are you know, imagine picking up your

738
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,840
child who says I'm finally clean. I've been in prison, mom,

739
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:33,039
because of this this lifestyle you got me into and

740
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:35,920
you pick them up and you're like, oh, I need

741
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,440
to take you to a drug deal on the way home.

742
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,519
I mean, that's the depravity this stuff makes possible. And

743
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:45,039
in turn, she had taken all that pain, she had

744
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,760
taken all that you know, that realization of what she

745
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,440
was caught up in, and had first gone to this

746
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,000
program as a member and then went in about three

747
00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:56,840
or four five years. She was the head of the house.

748
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,920
She was the prison of the organization. So there are

749
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,920
stories of victories out there, and there are stories of

750
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,440
people who realize the damage they've done for the communities

751
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,239
and to their families, to their people, to their fellow

752
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,679
working class white people. They're fell a little middle Americans,

753
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,960
and they're actually doing something about it. And that's one

754
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,679
of the few things that when I think about some

755
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,000
of the images that I'll never get out of my

756
00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:21,519
head in a bad way, that's one of the things

757
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:23,960
I've always try to hold on to and think, Yeah,

758
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,679
we can still overcome this, We can conquer anything, and

759
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:28,079
these people are proving it.

760
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about tv ads because I know

761
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:37,559
there are countries in Europe where it's illegal for pharmaceutical

762
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:42,920
companies to advertise on TV. Yet Oh it's I mean

763
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:47,039
here every I don't have I haven't had a network

764
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:50,400
TV in years, so I don't know, but I remember.

765
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,079
I mean, I think I cut the court in twenty

766
00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:55,679
fourteen or twenty fifteen, but I remember all the ads.

767
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,119
I remember that, Hey, this could cause diarrhea and death. Hey,

768
00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:03,199
you know, so let's talk a little bit about that.

769
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,400
How did they manipulate that and use those.

770
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,039
Speaker 2: Well, I'm old enough to actually remember. I went to

771
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:12,760
high school in the eighties as well. I'm old enough

772
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,639
to remember when there were no pharmaceutical ads on television,

773
00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:17,719
and when the first ones came on, they seemed so clumsy,

774
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:19,639
and in fact, they seemed like they would scare you

775
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:22,639
away from the prescription more so than towards it. And

776
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,719
we're not talking about painkillers per se. We're talking about oh,

777
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,320
this lifestyle thing that you know, your allergies or your

778
00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:34,639
you know, some chronic problem that you have, and here's

779
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,320
something that could help it. But also, you know, there

780
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,079
was always that long disclaimer at the end.

781
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,199
Speaker 3: It's like, could cause diarrhea, could cause explosive diarrhea, could

782
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,039
cause death, could cause high blood pressure, could cause heart attack,

783
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,679
and you're sitting there thinking that all sounds worse than

784
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:49,880
this condition I'm dealing with.

785
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,039
Speaker 2: But they were clumsy at first, but they've gotten very

786
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:57,480
refined since then, and you really see it for everything.

787
00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:01,039
We are so overprescribed. Americans have been so this idea

788
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,719
that if everything in their life is not perfect, that

789
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,760
there's a pill for it, that there's a shortcut that

790
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,239
if you're you know, I'll get to this point a minute.

791
00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:12,639
But but going back to what you say about Europe,

792
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,519
I was fortunate enough to live in Europe for about

793
00:44:14,559 --> 00:44:18,159
a year and I noticed when I did catch broadcast

794
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,719
television that yeah, there were there were no pharmaceutical lads whatsoever. None.

795
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,559
And in fact, I have some friends in Europe that

796
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:27,480
we talk about these sort of things. And I was

797
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,320
saying something like, I need to get h I need

798
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,760
to stop the story and gets some talent on. I'm

799
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,920
having some real lower back problems right now. And he's like,

800
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,920
what the hell is titlan All. I was like, well,

801
00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:41,000
it's a non prescription painkiller, you know, uh, anti anti

802
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,119
inflammatory whatnot. He's like, why do Americans know the names

803
00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:47,079
of all these different drugs they have no I mean,

804
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,079
he's he's a very well educated, very plugged in person

805
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,119
that this guy I'm talking about he had. He was like, advil,

806
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,840
What are you talking about? You know, they're a flu what? What?

807
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,760
What is? What is all this? It's just not part

808
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,440
of that culture in the way that it is with us,

809
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,679
the way that they've sold it to Americans. And not

810
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,800
that Europe doesn't have its problems, but this kind of

811
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,280
made me sit back and think for a while. And

812
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,519
I've come to this conclusion that after the publication of book,

813
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,840
which is when you look around at our society, American society,

814
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,280
Western society in general, American in particular, when you have

815
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,599
over half of your population going on two thirds is

816
00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,079
on some sort of prescription drug, and not all of

817
00:45:31,159 --> 00:45:34,400
these are painkillers, but some sort of prescription drug for

818
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,320
dealing with the either the effects or trying to ameliorate obesity,

819
00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:44,639
drinking drugs, for dealing with the fact that you're an

820
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:49,519
ex smoker. You know, all these different drugs are out there,

821
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:51,559
and sixty percent of Americans are on prescription drugs of

822
00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:57,519
some sort if they're not seeking relief from the painkillers, themselves.

823
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:01,719
They're seeking relief from other self medications that they are

824
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,239
indulging in, and that could be overeating, that could be sloth,

825
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,239
that could be alcoholism, that could be all of these

826
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,920
different things that you know, people try to do to escape.

827
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:15,679
When you have six out of ten of your populations

828
00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:19,039
on prescription drugs, it's not those people that are necessarily sick,

829
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,880
it's your society. Those people are trying to They're they're

830
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,760
medicating themselves against the society you built. And I say that,

831
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,119
and it looks like I've been drinking. This is a

832
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,880
virgin bloody Mary by the way, So just for the record,

833
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,079
because it sound like I'm coming off with some puritan

834
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,039
but no, everybody enjoys a good beer once in a while.

835
00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:43,119
Everybody enjoys a small advice. But you know, look, if

836
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,880
you keep account, I've actually, when I've made myself tune

837
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,559
in to network television taking a scratch pad the number

838
00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:54,920
of prescription drug commercials and what they're for, and they're

839
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,519
all from things like obesity or or dealing with you know,

840
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:02,280
other problems that arise from overreading, that arise from all

841
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,159
these different bad behaviors that are escapes from the society

842
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:07,559
that we live in. So the fundamental fix is not

843
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:10,199
going to come at the individual addict level. It's going

844
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,840
to have to happen at the sidal level. We have

845
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,360
to fix our six society before we do anything else.

846
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, mentioning Europe and how Europe doesn't really have

847
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,480
the opioid problem we do, Well, they needed to destroy Europe,

848
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:27,639
so they just imported rapists and murders proof. Yeah, they

849
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,199
just made it a lot worse. And I assume that's

850
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,599
exactly what they're trying to do here as well, you know,

851
00:47:34,039 --> 00:47:38,239
just to add a little insult to injury. Even some

852
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:44,760
people in our sphere will say, yeah, I mean I

853
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,960
see the targeting, I see what they did. But people

854
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:51,599
need to take some responsibility for themselves that they allowed

855
00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:52,760
this to happen to them.

856
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,679
Speaker 2: I'm not against that. I don't disagree on the one level,

857
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,199
because you know, the recovery for the addict has to

858
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:01,880
start with them. They have to realize that they have

859
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,840
to make a change, and there is amount of personal responsibility.

860
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,440
But what you've got to look at is, particularly when

861
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,440
it comes to opioids, and that's my area of specialty,

862
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:19,039
the majority of people who become addicts did not start

863
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:22,559
because they were thrill seeking pill poppers who are just

864
00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:25,199
looking to have fun, looking to zone out me in

865
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,079
like we used to talk about the hippies or whatever.

866
00:48:29,119 --> 00:48:31,039
Like I said, they get it from their doctor. They

867
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:33,679
get it sometimes as early as age sixteen, for wisdom

868
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,719
teeth removal. Once you hand somebody something that is so

869
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,599
powerfully addictive, particularly to a developing mind that young, what

870
00:48:43,639 --> 00:48:46,320
do you expects going to happen? And how much responsibility

871
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,880
do they have because they trusted their parents, they trusted

872
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,519
their health care provider to have their best interest to heart.

873
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,000
But they don't, or either the health care provider or

874
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,079
their parent is ignorant and should should have done a

875
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:03,880
better job in educating themselves, or they don't care. And

876
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,360
that's the case with too many of these important Speaking

877
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,719
of imports, these imported doctors, the piminals that I was

878
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,519
able to come across, the doctors that would write these

879
00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:15,920
prescriptions even in the face of the restrictions that were

880
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,760
at the state and federal level. Invariably they were imports.

881
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,960
Invariably they were Indians who had no stake in the

882
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,159
communities they were setting up shop in, and we didn't

883
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:29,599
experiment because there was this thing like, oh, you know,

884
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,039
obviously we've changed the rules here in Kentucky that you

885
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:35,920
can't get these prescriptions anymore the way that you used to. Okay,

886
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,519
so well let's see if we can do that. And

887
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,719
all it did, all that they had done, was really

888
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,760
at a step in particularly in the case in Kentucky

889
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,199
at the time that we did the experiment, which was

890
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:49,320
you could go to a pain management clinic and get

891
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,639
your regular prescriptions, but first you had to have a

892
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:54,480
referral from your family doctor. So it was an extra

893
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:57,880
you know, assuming you had either whether you had insurance

894
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,760
or not, maybe extra one hundred and fifty out of

895
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,440
pocket one extra visit. Then you're often paying clinic where

896
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,519
they're going to get you onto a cycle, they're going

897
00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:08,199
to renew it for three hundred a month. I think

898
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,400
was the you know, it was the monthly visit fee

899
00:50:11,039 --> 00:50:14,440
and it was cash. It was like, no insurance necessary.

900
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,840
Who do you think that they're catering to? Who do

901
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,599
you think that doctor Gupta is catering to? In this

902
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:21,119
small town in Kentucky.

903
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: One of the quotes I took from the book, it said,

904
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,639
the full cost, the full human cost is not simply

905
00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:30,360
an accounting of the dead, but includes the impact of

906
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,280
despair and hopelessness that follows in the wake of opiate

907
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:38,360
opiate addiction and abuse. Now, I mean this is taking.

908
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:42,320
This is extreme because this is also taking your health,

909
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:46,159
and it's destroying health, it's destroying lives, it is ending lives.

910
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,400
But I mean, we see this despair and hopelessness. In

911
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,360
my opinion. You know, when Joe Biden goes on TV

912
00:50:54,559 --> 00:50:58,239
in front of a red background and basically calls you know,

913
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:05,239
a significant poor, most almost all white, you know, basically terrorists,

914
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,079
people that need semi fascist, people who need to be watched,

915
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:11,920
you know, looked at people who need you know what

916
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:15,320
I meant. Paul Gottfried might even invoke the therapeutic state,

917
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,440
where there's something there's something innately wrong with them that

918
00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:23,320
needs to be repaired. People ask about that. I always say,

919
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,800
it's to give us to spare and hopelessness. It's too

920
00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:30,440
when you see these TikTok videos of these kindergarten teachers

921
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,159
talking about wanting to teach anal sex to their gay

922
00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:36,559
anal sex to their kids. That's to beat us. It's

923
00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:41,599
to give us despair and hopelessness. But you know, all

924
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,800
of this, all of this is and you know, I

925
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,079
would say the same thing about you know, sending rapists

926
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:52,039
into Sweden and just basically changing their culture. That women

927
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,559
don't even know what rape is anymore. They don't even

928
00:51:54,599 --> 00:51:56,239
know how to define it. They don't know if they've

929
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,639
been raped, when they've been raped, or.

930
00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:00,199
Speaker 2: They're scared to report it because they don't when it

931
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,920
seems like they're racists or whatnot. Yeah, my friend Borzoway

932
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:07,239
going to term for this, it's the humiliation a ritual,

933
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,559
and that's what you see with the TikTok videos and

934
00:52:09,559 --> 00:52:12,039
that sort of thing. I think there was a story

935
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:14,000
just a couple of weeks ago, and I think it

936
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:17,519
illustrates it. Think about every reference you see to within

937
00:52:17,559 --> 00:52:22,000
the mainstream media to white people, to white women, to

938
00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:26,599
white people in general, invariably it is a negative. There

939
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:30,760
is there is no mentioning of white people unless it's

940
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,760
a negative. Even Republicans do this. Their biggest their favorite

941
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,159
attack these days is well, this is the problem, well

942
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,480
white liberals, and that's why we need a coalition of

943
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:43,239
multicultural working class people. It's all a bunch of crap.

944
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,880
But they're only the only time they ever mentioned white

945
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,320
people as a group that might have, you know, its

946
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,159
own unique identity and its own interests and its own

947
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,840
needs that we expect that the government will meet to protect,

948
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,519
to provide for. That's the whole purpose of government. Dimension

949
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:04,280
of white people about any of these it's always invariably

950
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,199
a negative. It's always morally suspect. If you talk about

951
00:53:07,679 --> 00:53:11,320
white people in any positive way, you are morally suspect.

952
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,880
And that, as much as anything I can think, contributes

953
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,719
to this sense of despair, the sense of hopelessness. I mean,

954
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,199
if we continue down this track, and I'm not trying

955
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,559
to make the grandiose predictions on anything in particular, but

956
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,800
if we continue on the track that we're on, then

957
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,440
we can look at our future by looking at what's

958
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:39,440
left of the Indian tribes in America living on these

959
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,440
little reservations. And I'm not mean physically, but they live

960
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,239
on these little reservations. They have absolutely no pride left.

961
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,960
What little pride that they get is from grifters coming

962
00:53:49,039 --> 00:53:51,280
in who claim to be Indian and want to set

963
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,519
up a casino, but you know, dealing with addiction, dealing

964
00:53:54,559 --> 00:53:57,239
with just this despair because their culture is gone and

965
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,960
that's what they would like to see, you of white people.

966
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,039
And they want to see that in Europe, they want

967
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:03,480
to see that in America, and we have to say no,

968
00:54:03,559 --> 00:54:06,440
we have to start fighting back otherwise. I mean, this

969
00:54:06,519 --> 00:54:08,199
is this is about our futures, This is about our people,

970
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,679
and we deserve better. They deserve better. We owe it

971
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,679
to our ancestors and we know it to our progeny.

972
00:54:14,679 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 1: And it seems like what they want to kill is

973
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,800
they want to kill that Fastian spirit that goes forward

974
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:26,880
and seeks to conquer, that seeks to overcome. And multiculturalism

975
00:54:27,519 --> 00:54:31,159
people are like, oh, multicultural, what is multicul Multiculturalism does

976
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:33,960
a couple of things. First of all, multiculturalism isn't about,

977
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,840
you know, enhancing certain cultures over others. It's basically about

978
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,480
destroying all cultures. Because if you destroy all cultures, then

979
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,280
you know there is there's nothing, there's no foundation for

980
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:50,559
somebody to rest upon. Multiculturalism also definitely allows a certain

981
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,079
segment of the population to be able to hide mm hmm.

982
00:54:55,639 --> 00:55:00,719
And then when you start noticing to use in term,

983
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,360
once you start noticing, it's like, well, we can't hide

984
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,920
any we can't hide anymore. I mean we have. There's

985
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,079
twenty different cultures in this country, and holy crap, why

986
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:13,599
are they seeing only ours? I mean because two percent

987
00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:16,079
of the population and you know, half of the world's

988
00:55:16,119 --> 00:55:22,719
billionaires and controlled pretty much every single industry, especially anyone

989
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,760
that helps to create culture m and eventually you're going

990
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,440
to start someone's going to start noticing.

991
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,599
Speaker 2: And that's the biggest fear that they have. And that's

992
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:38,880
why bringing awareness to this problem, waking up a big

993
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,440
using the expression but the expression big normy, waking them

994
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,079
up to what's going on. Like you know the old saying,

995
00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:50,039
if they if these people were painted blue, everyone would notice. Hell,

996
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:52,960
if they were just Asian, everyone would notice. Exactly who

997
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,239
we're talking about. We all know who we're talking about.

998
00:55:56,639 --> 00:55:59,280
And it's it's by design, like you said, it's it's

999
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,440
you know, throw all the paints into one big bucket.

1000
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:06,320
And then you have this sort of lower IQ mix,

1001
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:10,280
mystery meat kind of population that pretty compliant, doesn't have

1002
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,119
that spirit to overcome and in fact, you know, you

1003
00:56:13,199 --> 00:56:16,920
even demonize the idea of the Faustian spirit as stealing.

1004
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,880
You know, we didn't conquer, we didn't explore, we didn't pioneer,

1005
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,760
we stole all this we stole this land and that

1006
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:28,280
sort of thing, and you may morally suspect any defense

1007
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,840
of yourself. And I mean, in a way, if you

1008
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,599
could completely remove yourself from a moral judgment of it,

1009
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:39,840
you could say, well, that is a unique way and

1010
00:56:40,119 --> 00:56:42,440
almost an admirable way that you conquered in other people.

1011
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,079
You made them once commit suicide, you made them want

1012
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:49,280
to just fade off into nothingness. But it's horror, horrifying

1013
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,400
to anybody with the moral center. And that's that's what's

1014
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,039
going on. And multiculturalism. You know, obviously my only interest

1015
00:56:56,119 --> 00:57:00,199
is for myself, is for my people, for white people.

1016
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:04,239
Multiculturism destroys that. But I actually do recognize that multiculturalism

1017
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,239
destroys other cultures. It destroys other cultures that deserve to

1018
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,760
have a right to be themselves, to be who they are,

1019
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,719
and they just need to do that in their own countries,

1020
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,719
in their own reasons. I have no problem with that.

1021
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:20,480
We get painted with so many negative stereotypes. Just because

1022
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,639
we say I want to stand up for white people,

1023
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:28,239
I want to stand up for white interests, they seem

1024
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,719
to want to graft onto that automatically. It's some sort

1025
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:33,599
of superiority, some sort of anger, some sort of need

1026
00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:36,599
to destroy. It's like, no, absolutely not. I just want

1027
00:57:36,679 --> 00:57:39,199
what's best for my people. And actually, if those people

1028
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:42,239
over there also flourish, then we can have an exchange.

1029
00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:44,280
We can trade, we can disit each other. But then

1030
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,599
we go home. You know, we have the recipes. You

1031
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:49,679
can stay over there. We'll stay over here. We won't

1032
00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:52,199
come visit. We might exchange, but there's no reason for

1033
00:57:52,239 --> 00:57:55,320
this idea that everything's got to be top down destruction

1034
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,239
and conquer. That's just how they demonize the idea of

1035
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,440
white people standing up for themselves.

1036
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:03,639
Speaker 1: Well let's end it right there before we get in

1037
00:58:03,679 --> 00:58:04,360
any more trouble.

1038
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: And sorry, I hope I didn't know.

1039
00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: Oh no, you're good.

1040
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: No, you're good.

1041
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,519
Speaker 1: But the talk a little bit about Antelope Hill, because

1042
00:58:12,559 --> 00:58:15,559
I mean they're doing amazing work, and absolutely some of

1043
00:58:15,559 --> 00:58:19,880
the books they're putting out, I mean just like Burnings,

1044
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,159
like to Grell, just reprinting some of his books is

1045
00:58:23,199 --> 00:58:26,760
like people don't even never even heard that name, and

1046
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,239
they need to go read like a Burning Souls or something.

1047
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,639
But also they're putting out poetry, and then they're putting

1048
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:35,800
out investigative reports like yours an hill.

1049
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: Again, our enemies always want to project onto us the

1050
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,840
worst things about themselves, and so they look at say

1051
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,920
the nights have I forgot what year was? I think

1052
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,199
nineteen thirty four, the burning of the books from the

1053
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:53,239
from the in Germany of.

1054
00:58:55,079 --> 00:58:58,079
Speaker 1: I've done a podcast going down exactly whose books they

1055
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:00,840
burn and believe they don't want you to know whose

1056
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:01,960
books they burned exactly.

1057
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,199
Speaker 2: That's what I was going with that they would like,

1058
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,639
you know, to think the idea that what we want

1059
00:59:06,639 --> 00:59:08,599
to do is we would want to burn books. We

1060
00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:10,760
want to ban things, and there are certain things that

1061
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,079
may obviously we would want to ban certain things that

1062
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:18,880
are completely and wholly destructive. But the reality is they

1063
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,559
want a complete silence of any information that is harmful

1064
00:59:23,559 --> 00:59:27,960
to their their their narrative, to their regime, their power structure.

1065
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,599
And analo Pill Publishing, analo pill Publishing dot Com has

1066
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:39,280
come together and they pluck from obscurity, intentional marginalization works

1067
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,599
by great authors affecting you know, whether it was they're

1068
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:47,800
historical or current, and they translate them, they bring them

1069
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,320
back into production. They spread these ideas because ideas is

1070
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,400
exactly what we're trying to do. We're spreading ideas. We're

1071
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,559
not trying to spread structure. We're not terrorists, we're not

1072
00:59:55,599 --> 00:59:59,719
any of these negative things. We're creating a political movement

1073
00:59:59,719 --> 01:00:03,719
and we're pushing ideas and a low pill. Wonderful people.

1074
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,159
I loved working with them. I look forward to working

1075
01:00:06,159 --> 01:00:08,800
with them again on another project and hopefully I'll be

1076
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:14,239
able to talk about that. But yeah, they the work

1077
01:00:14,239 --> 01:00:18,400
that they do is just the yeoman's work of bringing

1078
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,280
an intellectual theft to a movement that is matured over

1079
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,559
the over the course of my lifetime, from just initial

1080
01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:29,760
knee jerk reactions and you know, to online ship posting

1081
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:34,320
to actual real world activism and actually engaging in real

1082
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,119
world politics. And the work they've done is can't be

1083
01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:41,760
You can't bring a measure to how important it is

1084
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:46,480
to have that sort of intellectual theft. And that's you know,

1085
01:00:47,119 --> 01:00:50,199
they're wonderful. People buy their books and read them, read them.

1086
01:00:50,519 --> 01:00:52,599
The joke in our circles is we buy the books

1087
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:54,119
and they're like funko pops. We just put them on

1088
01:00:54,119 --> 01:00:56,880
the shelf. No, read the books. Those are there's a

1089
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,239
reason that we want you to see these ideas.

1090
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: Did you want to talk about what your next project

1091
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:04,440
is now, or you want to come back, or.

1092
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: It's still in the planning stages. I mean, I haven't

1093
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:09,239
even talked to them about it. It's more like that, Okay,

1094
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:12,079
myself and Richard and a few others, we just talked

1095
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:15,920
about some we're banding about ideas. But I'm definitely definitely

1096
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,840
not done with dealing with my good friends at a

1097
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:18,719
local publishing.

1098
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: Appreciate it, trade, Thank you so much. You take care all.

1099
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: Right, Appreciate you having me on Peter and it was

1100
01:01:24,519 --> 01:01:27,480
a great hour. Thank you all right.