Speaker 1: In March of twenty twenty one, a man was found
Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head along a quiet
Speaker 1: trail in a United States National park. What started as
Speaker 1: a strange and mysterious killing quickly unraveled into a carefully
Speaker 1: planned act tied to years of unresolved trauma, digital footprints,
Speaker 1: and a cross state trail of evidence. This is the
Speaker 1: story of how one moment in the woods exposed the
Speaker 1: limits of justice and the devastating cost of taking it
Speaker 1: into one's own hands. This is the tragic and convoluted
Speaker 1: story of Matthew Dunmyer and Chelsea Perkins.
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
Speaker 3: The following podcast and material intended about your audience listener
Speaker 3: discretion is It's.
Speaker 2: The last Friday before Christmas Day.
Speaker 1: So there's not a whole lot of time to make
Speaker 1: sure you're on the nice list or the naughty list.
Speaker 1: I need them where you want to land.
Speaker 2: At this point, I think it's done. No, it's decided.
Speaker 1: There is no. It's never too late for redemption. It's
Speaker 1: never too late for redemption.
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, this is actually a good time. A year
Speaker 2: to maybe have a reminder because it's just madness out there.
Speaker 1: It is. People are driving like crazy, They're being dicks
Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, everyone's in a rush and not
Speaker 1: looking to where everyone else is walking or living or existing.
Speaker 2: It's almost unsafe to be driving. Like, we live in
Speaker 2: a fair small town and the other day I got
Speaker 2: cut off like twice. So it's like, say, if I
Speaker 2: wasn't fully paying attention or had my mind somewhere else, like,
Speaker 2: holy shit, there's an accident.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I understand everyone has things going on, but
Speaker 1: just try and be aware, try and be a little nice.
Speaker 1: That's what Christmas is about, you know, be nice to
Speaker 1: those around you, so and try and spread that if
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 2: If you're on the naughtylist, you're staying on the naughtulist.
Speaker 2: Oh just kidding.
Speaker 1: We literally watched the Muppets a Christmas Carol last night.
Speaker 1: Yea Ebenezer Scrooge redeemed himself overnight.
Speaker 2: Come on now, Yeah that was like, that was really lovely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a whole moral of the story, you know,
Speaker 1: redemption and being nice. And here you're just like, no,
Speaker 1: it's too late, no one can do it.
Speaker 2: Just kidding. I actually sat through that and put my
Speaker 2: laptop away and didn't work. It was it was nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do have a big announcement we got to make,
Speaker 1: not just talking about Christmas. We have officially joined up
Speaker 1: on the iHeartMedia platform. So you might notice a little
Speaker 1: bit of changes within, like how ads are played or anything,
Speaker 1: but generally speaking you shouldn't notice much. It's more so
Speaker 1: on the back end. But we're super super excited to,
Speaker 1: you know, make that change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really smooth transition, so I think
Speaker 2: was it well for me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't have to do any of the back
Speaker 1: end work.
Speaker 2: I had to listen to you, and you weren't very
Speaker 2: you weren't really complaining, So I felt like it went pretty.
Speaker 1: Smooth because I was focused, I was doing things.
Speaker 2: Oh, I was moral support, and it seemed from my
Speaker 2: end to go pretty good.
Speaker 1: You did pour me and Mimosa to celebrate afterwards, so
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Thank you. I did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are like full blown Christmas drinks over here,
Speaker 2: Mimosa's eggnog with rom. I'm having a hot chocolate eggnog
Speaker 2: this morning.
Speaker 1: I'm just having coffee, but that's also a Christmas drink.
Speaker 1: That's an everyday, all the time, drink.
Speaker 2: Yes, but anyway, very excited to be moving over to
Speaker 2: that new network.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so all the all the exciting new things. Hey,
Speaker 1: you know, just looking forward to it. But I do
Speaker 1: think we should get into the case instead of too
Speaker 1: much chit chat. You ready for it?
Speaker 2: I am. You've told me a tiny bit about this one,
Speaker 2: so I'm very intrigued to hear about it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's let's go and dive into the detail.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: It was late in the morning on Tuesday, March ninth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, when a pair of hikers stepped onto
Speaker 1: the Tera Vista trail inside Cyahuga Valley National Park. It's
Speaker 1: a quiet stretch of woods south of Cleveland that most
Speaker 1: people visit for its scenery, not really for surprises. The
Speaker 1: trail winds through thick trees and uneven ground, and it's
Speaker 1: easy to lose sight of other hikers once you step
Speaker 1: off the main path. And that's when they saw him,
Speaker 1: a man lying face down in the leaves, just off
Speaker 1: that path and laying perfectly still.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: At first glance, there was no obvious sign of a struggle,
Speaker 1: no drag marks in the earth, no disturbed brush, just
Speaker 1: a body that clearly didn't belong there. Now, park rangers
Speaker 1: and first responders were called and arrived shortly after. The
Speaker 1: man's body was already cold to the touch as they
Speaker 1: knelt down and felt for a pulse that was not there.
Speaker 1: There was little decomposite, which suggested he hadn't been there
Speaker 1: for long, and the cause of death, well, it was immediate.
Speaker 1: He had a single gunshot wound to the back of
Speaker 1: his head. There was no weapon laying nearby, there was
Speaker 1: no shell casing on the ground, and no sign that
Speaker 1: he had tried to defend himself. It was just simple
Speaker 1: and what appeared to be an execution. However, even if
Speaker 1: that's what it seemed like, nothing could be ruled out.
Speaker 1: Accidents happened in strange ways, for example, and suicides, while
Speaker 1: unlikely in this situation given the placement and nothing found
Speaker 1: around him, still had to be considered. Homicide was, of
Speaker 1: course the most possible, but without a suspect or motive,
Speaker 1: or even an identity, it was still just a theory. Now,
Speaker 1: because the death occurred inside a national park, federal jurisdiction
Speaker 1: kicked in almost immediately. The FBI joined the investigation. Alongside
Speaker 1: local authorities and investigators while they began working to identify
Speaker 1: the man, and with dental records and missing persons reports,
Speaker 1: they soon confirmed his identity as thirty one year old
Speaker 1: Matthew Dunmyer, a Virginia native who had been living in Ohio.
Speaker 1: But even with a name, the mystery only continued to deepen.
Speaker 1: Why was he alone in a remote area of the
Speaker 1: National Park, Why had someone shot him from behind? And
Speaker 1: who had been with him before he died? Who had
Speaker 1: shot him? How? Why? All these questions began to pile up.
Speaker 1: Investigators shifted their focus from the crime scene to try
Speaker 1: and figure out those questions and of course, his final
Speaker 1: known movements. Now they had discovered that Matthew had moved
Speaker 1: from Virginia to Ohio in an attempt to do a
Speaker 1: bit of a fresh start on his life. He was
Speaker 1: living near Hudson, working at a screen printing shop and
Speaker 1: spending most of his time with coworkers who had become
Speaker 1: his main social circle. Now to them, Matthew came across
Speaker 1: as laid back. He was creative and easy to get
Speaker 1: along with. He played guitar, loved music, and often talked
Speaker 1: about his kids back home in Virginia. On the evening
Speaker 1: of Friday, March fifth, Matthew went out with his coworkers
Speaker 1: to a bar called Teaky Underground. It wasn't unusual for
Speaker 1: the group to grab drinks after work, and nothing about
Speaker 1: the night really seemed off, at least not at first.
Speaker 1: At some point during the evening, Matthew mentioned that he
Speaker 1: had plans for the weekend. A woman he knew from
Speaker 1: Virginia was in town and they were going to go
Speaker 1: spend time together. Now, not long after that, his phone
Speaker 1: lit up with a message. Matthew glanced down, smiled, and
Speaker 1: told the group that she had arrived, and so he
Speaker 1: stood up, grabbed his coat, and headed outside. Now, one
Speaker 1: of his supervisors followed him on his way out to
Speaker 1: say goodbye and you know, wish him a good weekend
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So as they talked, the supervisor noticed
Speaker 1: a small white car idling in the parking lot and
Speaker 1: a woman with dark hair sitting in the driver's seat.
Speaker 1: Matthew smiled a big grin and shook his supervisor's hand,
Speaker 1: then got into the passenger seat of the car as
Speaker 1: it pulled away. That was the last time anyone at
Speaker 1: the bar would ever see Matthew alive.
Speaker 2: Dun dun, dum Hey yeah.
Speaker 1: Now. Surveillance cameras in the area later confirmed them leaving,
Speaker 1: and traffic cameras and told data also showed the white
Speaker 1: smart car moving through Cleveland that evening as well. Around
Speaker 1: the same time, the car stopped at a gas station.
Speaker 1: Footage showed Matthew going inside to buy cigarettes, a canned drink,
Speaker 1: and a bottle of Aquafina water. From there, the car
Speaker 1: headed towards an Airbnb on the east side of Cleveland.
Speaker 1: Later that night, cameras near a sandwich shop captured Matthew
Speaker 1: and a woman together casually grabbing food before returning to
Speaker 1: that airbnb. Cell Phone data placed both of them inside
Speaker 1: the rental overnight. The next morning, Saturday, March sixth, Matthew
Speaker 1: sent several text messages to his girlfriend back in Virginia. Now,
Speaker 1: his girlfriend knew he was meeting this girl as it
Speaker 1: seemed like it was a meetup of potentially an old
Speaker 1: friend or something like that, So she was aware of this.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So here I was assuming this was his
Speaker 2: girlfriend or a lady he was interested in.
Speaker 1: Definitely not his girlfriend.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, from the tone of the messages back to his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: It suggested that there was some tension going on with
Speaker 1: this girl that he was now hanging out with. He
Speaker 1: said that, you know, they'd met up and somehow he
Speaker 1: managed to upset her and he admitted, quote pissed this
Speaker 1: chick off end quote Now. Still, nothing in those messages
Speaker 1: suggested he felt unsafe or believed that he could be
Speaker 1: in any danger. But at ten twenty nine am, matt
Speaker 1: sent one final text to his girlfriend and said, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll see you in a little while now. Investigators would
Speaker 1: later determine that message was sent from inside Coya Huga
Speaker 1: Valley National Park, the same place where he was found dead,
Speaker 1: and of course Matthew never made it home. Now, as
Speaker 1: detectives pieced together the timeline, it was obvious Matthew hadn't
Speaker 1: gone into the woods alone. Somewhere between the bar, the airbnb,
Speaker 1: and the park, someone else had been with him, and
Speaker 1: whoever that person was had vanished since without a trace.
Speaker 1: But for now all investigators had was a car, a
Speaker 1: woman in town for the weekend, and a growing sense
Speaker 1: that this wasn't a spontaneous act. So as investigators continued
Speaker 1: to work back through Matthew's final hours, new information began
Speaker 1: to surface from people who had been inside Cyahuga Valley
Speaker 1: National Park that same morning, and they were well. They
Speaker 1: were first hand encounters that placed another person in the
Speaker 1: woods at the exact same time that Matthew seemed to disappear.
Speaker 1: Late in the morning on March sixth, a couple walking
Speaker 1: along the trails near the Terra Vista Natural Study Area
Speaker 1: reported hearing a single sharp sound that echoed through the trees.
Speaker 1: It sounded to them like a gunshot, and the noise
Speaker 1: was unsettling enough that they turned around and left the
Speaker 1: area immediately and did not continue with their plans.
Speaker 2: Hey, that's probably pretty smart. Hey, that would be alarming.
Speaker 1: Definitely now. Not long after, another pair of hikers entered
Speaker 1: the same section of the park, and as they made
Speaker 1: their way along the trail near an old cemetery, they
Speaker 1: noticed a woman walking alone. She stood out immediately. She
Speaker 1: was dressed heavily in black, dark pants, black hoodie, and
Speaker 1: heavy boots that didn't quite fit the setting of hiking
Speaker 1: on a nature trail to say the least. Hey, no
Speaker 1: one's judging, it's just a little out of the ordinary.
Speaker 1: And she didn't look injured or she didn't panic either,
Speaker 1: but she didn't really look relaxed. Something else was an
Speaker 1: air about her to say. When the hiker spoke to her,
Speaker 1: she said that she was lost and she was trying
Speaker 1: to find the cemetery. Her tone was flat and calm,
Speaker 1: and after a brief exchange, she turned and walked away. Now,
Speaker 1: at the time, it didn't feel like much more than
Speaker 1: an encounter in the woods with someone dressed all in black.
Speaker 1: People get lost in the park time to time. It's
Speaker 1: not out of the ordinary. People look for a cemetery
Speaker 1: or other landmarks. But once Matthew's body was discovered days later,
Speaker 1: those interactions took a much heavier weight because well, she
Speaker 1: had been seen near the exact area where Matthew's body
Speaker 1: would later be found, and witnesses could place her within
Speaker 1: a narrow window of time.
Speaker 2: And she wasn't like very calm or did have an
Speaker 2: odd demeanor about her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So you have this window of a gunshot
Speaker 1: was heard, a body is found. When you find someone
Speaker 1: that just is a little bit out of place, and
Speaker 1: all those things fall into place, that's when suspicions start
Speaker 1: to get raised. Now, at this point in the investigation,
Speaker 1: detectives still didn't know who she was. They didn't have
Speaker 1: a name, they didn't know where she came from really,
Speaker 1: or where she went afterwards. The first break in the case, though,
Speaker 1: came from Matthew's workplace. His coworkers at the screen printing
Speaker 1: shop in Hudson, Ohio told investigators about the night that
Speaker 1: he disappeared. That on March fifth, Matthew had gone out
Speaker 1: with them to the local bar, the Teaky Underground, when
Speaker 1: they mentioned, you know, the meeting of the woman in
Speaker 1: the parking lot from out of town for the weekend,
Speaker 1: and when it came time to leave, supervisor walked him
Speaker 1: outside and said goodbye, and the details of him climbing
Speaker 1: in the small white car parked outside the bar came
Speaker 1: to light. It had been an out of state car
Speaker 1: because it had the plates from another state and the
Speaker 1: person behind the wheel appeared to be a woman with
Speaker 1: dark hair. Surveillance footage from the nearby cameras backed up
Speaker 1: that account, and from there investigators began tracing the vehicle's
Speaker 1: movements using traffic cameras, toll readers, and license plate recognition systems.
Speaker 1: The white smart car appeared again at a gas station,
Speaker 1: then later moving through Cleveland neighborhoods the trail didn't stop
Speaker 1: at city limits, though records show the same car had
Speaker 1: traveled from Ohio to Virginia on March fifth, just hours
Speaker 1: before Matthew was seen alive. Toll data confirmed a very
Speaker 1: deliberate multi state drive that aligned precisely with his final moments.
Speaker 1: Now after his death, the following morning, the vehicle left
Speaker 1: Ohio again, crossing into Michigan before eventually returning to Virginia.
Speaker 1: What had initially looked like an isolated killing on a
Speaker 1: hiking trail was now clearly part of a larger, planned sequence.
Speaker 1: Someone had driven hundreds of miles to reach Matthew, to
Speaker 1: stay overnight with him, and then left the state within
Speaker 1: hours of his death. The case was no longer confined
Speaker 1: to this national park. It had crossed state lines, involved
Speaker 1: federal land, and pointed to planning rather than chance. Investigators
Speaker 1: soon identified the owner of that white smart car, and
Speaker 1: it was a man by the name of John Perkins.
Speaker 1: He was a man living in Virginia, but records quickly
Speaker 1: showed he hadn't been in Ohio that weekend, and it
Speaker 1: was obvious he was not the person seen driving. So
Speaker 1: the next step was to figure out who had been
Speaker 1: behind the wheel. Now John did have a wife, and
Speaker 1: her name was Chelsea Perkins. As agents began pulling records
Speaker 1: on her name, things started surfacing. Travel data showed she
Speaker 1: had driven from Virginia to Ohio on March fifth, twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one, arriving just hours before Matthew had left the
Speaker 1: bar with her. The timeline fit way too cleanly to ignore.
Speaker 1: Clearly she was the one driving that car. Now, the
Speaker 1: Airbnb Matthew stayed in that night wasn't booked under his name,
Speaker 1: nor was it a fake name or even a third party.
Speaker 1: It had been reserved under Chelsea Perkins's name, confirming that
Speaker 1: she was in fact there. Also, she used her own
Speaker 1: credit card.
Speaker 2: Hmm, okay, so she's really not hiding that she was
Speaker 2: there at all.
Speaker 1: No, definitely not. The address placed her and Matthew together overnight,
Speaker 1: less than twenty four hours before his death, and surveillance
Speaker 1: footage from the area, and of course you know it
Speaker 1: all showed them together. It was very obvious investigators now
Speaker 1: had something they didn't have before, a full identity tied
Speaker 1: to the vehicle, the lodging, and the timeline. Now Chelsea
Speaker 1: wasn't this mysterious woman anymore. She was a confirmed part
Speaker 1: of Matthew's final days, and at this point, while she
Speaker 1: wasn't under arrest, In fact, she didn't even know that
Speaker 1: she was at the center of an expanding federal investigation.
Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, agents began quietly building their profile
Speaker 1: and started digging into her background deeper, and what they
Speaker 1: found was not at all what they expected. As it
Speaker 1: turns out, Chelsea Perkins was a former US Coast Guard
Speaker 1: service member. She was also married, as we know, and
Speaker 1: she also had children. Now after leaving the military, Chelsea
Speaker 1: Perkins had built a public online persona alongside her private
Speaker 1: life as a wife and mother. She was active on
Speaker 1: social media and earned an income through online adult content platforms,
Speaker 1: including one such as OnlyFans, operating under a different name. Now,
Speaker 1: to investigators, this wasn't evidence of wrongdoing by any means,
Speaker 1: but it did explain her extensive digital footprint and why
Speaker 1: her online activity would later become part of this investigation.
Speaker 1: So there was nothing about her that suggested a history
Speaker 1: of violence or criminal behavior. There's no prior arrests, no
Speaker 1: obvious red flags. A mother, a wife, an adult content creator.
Speaker 1: That's about it. And as agents shifted their focus to
Speaker 1: Chelsea Perkins, it began securing court authorization to examine the
Speaker 1: digital trail surrounding her movements. They got a hold of
Speaker 1: her phone provider and looked through all the information, which
Speaker 1: included app data and location data. Now through this they
Speaker 1: began reconstructing her movements digitally. GPS data placed her in
Speaker 1: Cleveland on the evening of March fifth, lining up with
Speaker 1: surveillance footage and toll records and everything else. Cell Phone
Speaker 1: tower pings confirmed she stayed overnight near the airbnb, which
Speaker 1: by morning of March sixth, both her phone and Matthews
Speaker 1: were then moving in sync. Her social media added more
Speaker 1: to this. Still, in the days before the trip, Chelsea
Speaker 1: had posted an interesting and perhaps cryptic message that read
Speaker 1: quote dead men tell no tales end quote. Now on
Speaker 1: its own, that might mean nothing, but paired with everything else,
Speaker 1: it lands a little bit differently, almost as if there's
Speaker 1: a bit of a hidden meaning behind it.
Speaker 2: Potentially it sure does well. And also, this is twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. It's like, I don't know it. They're just
Speaker 2: they're able to find so much information, right like, so
Speaker 2: this is honestly surprising me that if she would be
Speaker 2: the killer, because she just isn't hiding a single thing, but.
Speaker 1: It's potential that she's not trying to hide I guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1: Now, while digital evidence was painting a very troubling picture,
Speaker 1: investigators still needed something solid, something physical that could stand
Speaker 1: on its own in court. They needed real evidence. They
Speaker 1: needed something to say that she was in fact there,
Speaker 1: that she in fact killed him, because as of right now,
Speaker 1: she was with him prior to she left after one
Speaker 1: could have been seen in the park. We don't know.
Speaker 1: There's all this surrounding it, but there's nothing tying her
Speaker 1: to the exact crime scene and the exact crime Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true.
Speaker 2: Maybe she didn't even have anything to hide per.
Speaker 1: Se, So it is just circumstantially yeah, point, it really is. Well,
Speaker 1: the evidence that they needed came from the autopsy and
Speaker 1: the crime scene itself, or at least some did. If
Speaker 1: you recall, Matthew had been killed with a single gunshot
Speaker 1: wound to the back of the head, and the trajectory
Speaker 1: told investigators a lot that the bullet entered from behind
Speaker 1: at close range, traveling in a straight path. Now, there
Speaker 1: were no defensive wounds, no injury, suggesting a fight or
Speaker 1: sudden confrontation. Whatever happened out there, it was over quickly,
Speaker 1: like he was with someone he knew or trusted. Yes,
Speaker 1: again still circumstantial. But near Matthew's body, investigators found a
Speaker 1: partially full Aquafina water bottle, and forensic testing would turn
Speaker 1: it into one of the most important pieces of evidence
Speaker 1: in this case because DNA analysis revealed two profiles on
Speaker 1: the bottle, Matthew's and Chelsea's. Oh and Matthew is seen
Speaker 1: on surveillance purchasing an Aquafina water bottle with her.
Speaker 2: There you go. That's like a smoking gun and a half,
Speaker 2: is it?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 2: Kind of I feel like.
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing. Sure they could have shared the
Speaker 1: water bottle an hour before.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, I guess still.
Speaker 1: Doesn't pin her down at the scene.
Speaker 2: True, because she was with him when he bought that,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't just have
Speaker 2: a drink when they bought it, and he later took
Speaker 2: it on a hike. Okay, I see where you're going.
Speaker 1: So these are important pieces of evidence for sure, but
Speaker 1: there's still not quite the smoking gun they're looking for now.
Speaker 1: Her DNA was also found under Matthew's fingernails and on
Speaker 1: hair recovered from his body. The evidence showed that the
Speaker 1: two had been close in physical contact shortly before his death,
Speaker 1: but still did not by itself prove a crime, but
Speaker 1: it firmly established that Matthew had not been alone in
Speaker 1: the woods. Now they had digital records placing Chelsea at
Speaker 1: the scene, they really do, but pulling the trigger murdering
Speaker 1: someone is a different story. They had witnesses who saw
Speaker 1: her in the woods immediately after a gunshot DNA tying
Speaker 1: her there. But now, up until this point in the investigation,
Speaker 1: it had focused almost entirely in what happened that day
Speaker 1: in March, and rightfully so. But as agents continued digging
Speaker 1: into Chelsea's background, they uncovered a piece of history that
Speaker 1: reframed the case in a way no one saw coming.
Speaker 1: And in March of twenty seventeen, Chelsea herself had walked
Speaker 1: into a police station in Virginia Beach and made a
Speaker 1: very serious accusation. She reported that Matthew Dunmyer, the murder
Speaker 1: victim and someone she had known for years, had actually
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and raped her. Now, the details of that
Speaker 1: report were never publicly released, but police did investigate. Matthew
Speaker 1: admitted that he had been together sexually with her, but
Speaker 1: he claimed the encounter was consensual, and ultimately charges were
Speaker 1: not filed citing insufficient evidence.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, wow, there you go.
Speaker 1: Legally the matter ended right there. But for Chelsea, clearly
Speaker 1: it didn't end at all.
Speaker 2: Well, no, it wouldn't have for sure.
Speaker 1: Investigators would later learn that she carried the weight of
Speaker 1: that allegation four years. Messages recovered from her phone and
Speaker 1: social media accounts showed lingering anger, resentment, and a belief
Speaker 1: that Matthew had escaped accountability for what he had done
Speaker 1: to her and who knows, potentially others. In private conversations,
Speaker 1: she wrote that one day he would get his someday quote.
Speaker 2: Unquote, oh gosh, okay.
Speaker 1: Now, this history was known to Matthew's coworkers in Ohio.
Speaker 1: It wasn't known to the hikers who crossed paths with
Speaker 1: Chelsea in the woods either, and it wasn't still known
Speaker 1: to the investigators when they began piecing this whole thing together.
Speaker 1: Right at the very beginning, they had no clue. But
Speaker 1: once it was uncovered, it provided a lot of insight
Speaker 1: and a possible motive for a crime. Now, importantly, investigators
Speaker 1: were careful how this information was handled, the twenty seventeen
Speaker 1: allegation had never resulted in charges, and Matthew was never
Speaker 1: convicted of a crime. That legal reality remained unchanged. What
Speaker 1: the history did show, however, was that Chelsea and Matthew
Speaker 1: did not reconnect as strangers or casual acquaintances. They reconnected, yes,
Speaker 1: but with unresolved trauma, anger and a pass that had
Speaker 1: never been settled in court. So with everything they had,
Speaker 1: investigators now needed to try and prove what they thought
Speaker 1: to be true, which was that Chelsea had murdered Matthew.
Speaker 1: So on March thirtieth, federal agents executed a search warrant
Speaker 1: at her home in Arlington, Virginia, carefully documenting everything they
Speaker 1: found inside the residents, agents recovered several firearms, including a
Speaker 1: Springfield Armory nine millimeter pistol registered to Chelsea. One of
Speaker 1: the weapons was located alongside her personal identification, leaving no
Speaker 1: question about the ownership or access, and ammunition was of
Speaker 1: course seized as well. Now, the bullet recovered from Matthew's
Speaker 1: skull was also a nine millimeter round, and test firings
Speaker 1: were of course conducted soon thereafter, and the markings on
Speaker 1: the test bullets were compared to the bullet taken from
Speaker 1: Matthew's bullet body and guess what it was an undeniable match.
Speaker 1: Oh no, they literally have a smoking gun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I do have a burning question here, what's up?
Speaker 2: Because like she went to go visit him as a friend,
Speaker 2: so were they they were in his mind still on
Speaker 2: like friend grounds here, I don't know, and it wouldn't
Speaker 2: have been weird or alarming or I don't know, okay,
Speaker 2: because yeah, just sitting here, I'm like, that's so odd
Speaker 2: that a to anyone in her life, she would be
Speaker 2: able to go visit him and that would be okay
Speaker 2: and be like that he wouldn't think that's fishy, you
Speaker 2: know that she wants to come meet up with him.
Speaker 1: There are some gray areas within this story and we'll
Speaker 1: touch on that. Don't worry, Okay. So now, beyond the
Speaker 1: firearms that were found, there were also receipts that were collected,
Speaker 1: told data and booking records which confirmed Chelsea's drive to
Speaker 1: Virginia to Ohio had happened and her overnight's stay at
Speaker 1: the Airbnb. Investigators would also recover deleted Facebook messages between
Speaker 1: the two of them. The conversation wasn't long, but it
Speaker 1: was enough to establish that the meeting had been planned
Speaker 1: days in advance, not arranged on a whim. But most
Speaker 1: damning of all, forensic analysis also recovered deleted data from
Speaker 1: her phone that included a draft note written from Matthew's
Speaker 1: point of view. It was a suicide note.
Speaker 2: Shit.
Speaker 1: There was a drafted suicide note written from Matthew's point
Speaker 1: of view found on her phone that she had wrote. Now,
Speaker 1: this was never sent, it was never transferred to his phone,
Speaker 1: never printed. Nothing. It did exist, Okay, typed out, saved,
Speaker 1: and later deleted, So take that with a grain of salt,
Speaker 1: but it did exist.
Speaker 2: That was probably her ultimate plan, was to make this
Speaker 2: seem like a suicide and then something yeah when a
Speaker 2: rye or astray or whatever exactly.
Speaker 1: And finding this in her phone it changed a lot
Speaker 1: on how investigators viewed this case. This clearly wasn't just
Speaker 1: someone who panicked after a crime situation. This was someone
Speaker 1: who had thought very clearly and deliberately about how the
Speaker 1: death would be explained, how it would look, and what
Speaker 1: story would be told afterwards.
Speaker 2: Probably for the past four years, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 1: Potentially Yeah, now even though this note was never used,
Speaker 1: its presence mattered hugely. It showed forethought and clear pre
Speaker 1: meditation to potential murder, that Matthew's death had been considered
Speaker 1: in advance, like you said, upwards of even four years. Now,
Speaker 1: despite the evidence that was gathered, Chelsea was still not
Speaker 1: taken into custody, at least not right away anyways. Instead,
Speaker 1: she returned to her life in Virginia and remained free
Speaker 1: for nearly nine months while the investigation continued behind the scenes. Now,
Speaker 1: the delay was not due to uncertainty about her involvement.
Speaker 1: It was pretty clear what slowed the process down was procedures.
Speaker 1: The crime had taken place on federal land, which places
Speaker 1: it under federal jurisdiction, while Chelsea lived in another state,
Speaker 1: So every step required coordination between agencies, extensive forensic testing too,
Speaker 1: and careful legal review, and all of that takes a
Speaker 1: lot of time. Now, DNA analysis in particular, it took
Speaker 1: a while samples collected from the water bottle, for example, Like,
Speaker 1: that's not something to pick up the water bottle and
Speaker 1: just know the DNA's there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely can take quite a while.
Speaker 1: For sure, So I might have talked about it like, oh,
Speaker 1: they found the water bottle and it had her DNA
Speaker 1: on it. It took months to figure out her DNA
Speaker 1: was on there.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: Matthew's body also needed processing in documentation to federal standards.
Speaker 1: Ballistic testings also had to be completed and verified. Prosecutors
Speaker 1: needed every piece of this to be air tight before
Speaker 1: moving forward with charges that could result in a life
Speaker 1: in prison, so that takes time and work. Now, during
Speaker 1: all this, during this period, Chelsea did not go on
Speaker 1: the run. She stayed in her home, cared for her children,
Speaker 1: and continued posting online without even a hint that she
Speaker 1: was ever the focus in a major investigation. She knew
Speaker 1: she was, though, because they had executed a warrant on
Speaker 1: her place, right, she knew she was under the microscope.
Speaker 2: But she was just living well. I mean, she and
Speaker 2: her mind probably felt this. She was owed this, So
Speaker 2: she's just going about living her life.
Speaker 1: I guess saying, yeah, she's not trying to hide what
Speaker 1: she did. She's not trying to run from what she did.
Speaker 1: She's just potentially took care of business and got back
Speaker 1: to everyday life. Now, behind the scenes, federal agents kept
Speaker 1: watching her. Her movements were monitored her communications were tracked
Speaker 1: and legally were permitted anyways, and by the end of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the case was complete. Every delay had
Speaker 1: served its purpose, and every piece of evidence was now
Speaker 1: in place. All that remained was an arrest. So in
Speaker 1: a quiet day in December of twenty twenty one, nearly
Speaker 1: nine months after Matthew Dunmyer was killed in the Woods,
Speaker 1: federal agents arrived at Chelsea's home in Virginia and placed
Speaker 1: her under arrest. There was no dramatic standoff, no attempt
Speaker 1: to flee. Neighbors simply watched as she was quietly taken
Speaker 1: into custody, with many of those neighbors unaware of what
Speaker 1: she had done and why she was being led away
Speaker 1: in the first place. Chelsea was charged with first degree
Speaker 1: murder on federal land, along with a firearms violation tied
Speaker 1: to the use and discharge of a weapon during a
Speaker 1: crime of violence, meaning if convicted at trial, she was
Speaker 1: facing possible life in prison plus additional time for weapons charges.
Speaker 2: Okay, does it make it worse that it was on
Speaker 2: federal land?
Speaker 1: It does? Yes?
Speaker 2: Really? Okay, she probably had no idea about that then, No, assuming.
Speaker 1: I don't quote me on this, but I believe it's
Speaker 1: the charges are upscaled or sorry, not the charges, Like
Speaker 1: the sentencing is upscaled, So yeah, your charges is also
Speaker 1: upscaled to like first scream murder to first scream murder
Speaker 1: on federal land. Yeah, which means I think it's a
Speaker 1: harsher punishment.
Speaker 2: Huh Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, for Matthew's family, the arrest brought a mix of
Speaker 1: relief and devastation. The uncertainty of what had followed, you know,
Speaker 1: with his death was finally replaced with answers. But the
Speaker 1: reality of what those answers meant, well, it was impossible
Speaker 1: to ignore their son, who was himself a father of two,
Speaker 1: had been deliberately killed for an alleged evil act, and
Speaker 1: the woman responsible was someone he had trusted enough to
Speaker 1: spend his final night with. But why he was doing
Speaker 1: so is a whole other conversation which you were kind
Speaker 1: of already touching on, which we don't really know. Perhaps
Speaker 1: it was to reconcile past actions, Maybe we don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was driven by desires of more infidelity. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was simply platonic. We just do not know.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: While Chelsea sat in jail awaiting the next phase, of
Speaker 1: her case, a separate tragedy was already beginning to unfold,
Speaker 1: one that investigators had never anticipated. Matthew dun meyers mother,
Speaker 1: Tommy Lynne dun Meyer, had not taken the death of
Speaker 1: her son very well, and in the months following the
Speaker 1: discovery of his body, her grief hardened into obsession. Convinced
Speaker 1: that the system was moving far too slowly, she began
Speaker 1: conducting her own investigation, pouring over information and trying to
Speaker 1: identify who she believed was responsible for Matthew's murder, and
Speaker 1: by November of twenty twenty one, Tommy Lynn believed she
Speaker 1: had found the person who killed her son. But she
Speaker 1: was wrong. She didn't know she was wrong, and accompanied
Speaker 1: by her husband, John McQuillan, she traveled to Washington, d c.
Speaker 1: Convinced that this woman she had found was living there
Speaker 1: just in peace, being Matthew's killer. The plan she had
Speaker 1: was simple. She was dressed as a ups driver, carrying
Speaker 1: a fake package and a concealed firearm. John waited nearby
Speaker 1: as a getaway driver, and as they knocked on the
Speaker 1: door to deliver said package, the door opened and Tommy
Speaker 1: Lynn pulled the trigger and fired two shots into the
Speaker 1: innocent woman's stomach.
Speaker 2: O holy fridge. I did not see this coming at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the woman who answered the door had no connection
Speaker 1: to Matthew whatsoever or his death at all. She was
Speaker 1: an innocent stranger who got shot because someone took what
Speaker 1: they thought was justice into their own hands.
Speaker 2: Oh my word, Okay, please tell me she made it.
Speaker 1: Thankfully, this woman survived the attack thanks to emergency services
Speaker 1: who reached her in time.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's I mean, gosh. I can see like
Speaker 2: being angry and like wanting to get like justice for
Speaker 2: your kid and stuff, but that is not the way
Speaker 2: to do it.
Speaker 1: Yes, I agree. We'll talk about it out. Don't worry.
Speaker 2: I mean, especially if you're not totally well. I guess
Speaker 2: she probably was totally certain. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay. There's two perspectives on this though, because arguably Chelsea
Speaker 1: did the same thing her mother did. Chelsea went and
Speaker 1: shot someone who wronged her, who raped and sexually assaulted her.
Speaker 1: That's why Matthew's.
Speaker 2: Dead, the same thing Matthew's mother did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, or sorry Matthew's mother. Yeah, So Matthew's mother
Speaker 1: is now taking yeah, doing the same thing. But it
Speaker 1: was an innocent person yeah. So so sometimes, yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what, you might want to take matters into your
Speaker 1: own hands, but are you really doing it properly?
Speaker 2: Well, and in reality, what is that going to necessarily
Speaker 2: do for you? Because you're probably going to get caught,
Speaker 2: and then what's your life after that? You know?
Speaker 1: Well exactly, So this case literally shows two sides of
Speaker 1: the coin when you take matters into your own hands. Yes,
Speaker 1: a potential sex predator was held accountable quote unquote.
Speaker 2: We'll say that which they they should have been.
Speaker 1: They should have been. Yeah, if actually they did that crime,
Speaker 1: they definitely should be. Yeah, So she took matters to
Speaker 1: make sure he was actually held accountable. His mother was
Speaker 1: trying to do the same, but she got it wrong.
Speaker 1: She had no clue. Yeah, so she was holding the
Speaker 1: wrong person accountable. So there's that two side that when
Speaker 1: it goes wrong and when it does, like you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think we should just say too, like
Speaker 2: held accountable by you know, going to jail, not necessarily
Speaker 2: being like.
Speaker 1: That's when why I said quote unquote held up accountable,
Speaker 1: because it's depending on your perspective, and in her perspective,
Speaker 1: she was holding him quote unquote accountable. Now after this
Speaker 1: had occurred and police arrived, they were quickly closing in
Speaker 1: and Tommy Lynn and John while they were attempting to run,
Speaker 1: but soon after they got stopped. With the police and
Speaker 1: everything right, John exited the vehicle and surrendered, while Tommy
Speaker 1: Lynn remained sitting inside the vehicle. But moments later, there
Speaker 1: was another sharp pop sound as she pulled the trigger
Speaker 1: and took her own life with the same gun she
Speaker 1: used in the shooting. Oh no, So, in the span
Speaker 1: of a single night, Matthew's family lost a second life
Speaker 1: and an innocent woman was nearly killed.
Speaker 2: Holy mother of shit. Okay, this is just like a
Speaker 2: rollercoaster and a half, is it. Ever so, and when
Speaker 2: she took her life there, she didn't know that the
Speaker 2: person she shot had survived or anything yet.
Speaker 1: Really, she didn't know that the person she shot was
Speaker 1: rough and it was wrong, and she didn't know what
Speaker 1: the person was going to survive, So she assumed that
Speaker 1: she had killed the right person when everything about what
Speaker 1: she thought was incorrect. She had injured severely the incorrect person.
Speaker 2: Okay, that is just such a mess.
Speaker 1: Which is why taking things into your own hands is
Speaker 1: not always right. Because look at the mess it causes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that family too is now like the dad's
Speaker 2: dealing with a son that got murdered, a wife that's
Speaker 2: now committed suicide, and he is probably going to be
Speaker 2: facing some jail time, I would imagine.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was later charged and pled guilty to accessory after
Speaker 1: the fact to assault with an intent to kill for
Speaker 1: his role, and ultimately he was sentenced to approximately three
Speaker 1: years in jail.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that is just such a mess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this whole vigilante thing, it had no impact
Speaker 1: on Chelsea's case whatsoever. Who Well, she's the one who
Speaker 1: did it. We're aware of that. We already have the
Speaker 1: smoking gun and everything.
Speaker 2: I do wonder how like the mom was just so
Speaker 2: convinced about this other person, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not too sure how she got to that.
Speaker 2: But when you're when you're mourning and your mind isn't
Speaker 2: necessarily you know, in its right place, like you could,
Speaker 2: I could see how you could fixate on something and
Speaker 2: really believe it too.
Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent, which is exactly why I do
Speaker 1: not advocate for taking matters into your own hands. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: there's there are certainly times where I think someone needs
Speaker 1: to be more held accountables. Justice has failed. Things moved
Speaker 1: too slowly could result in someone getting hurt again. However,
Speaker 1: in the same breath, an innocent person almost died because
Speaker 1: someone took those matters into their own hands. They got
Speaker 1: too blinded by what they were fixated on, and the
Speaker 1: truth is always not exactly so easy to see anyways.
Speaker 1: After her arrest, Chelsea Perkins was transferred to federal custody
Speaker 1: and the folks shifted to prosecution. The evidence against her, well,
Speaker 1: it was extensive, to say the least, and prosecutors made
Speaker 1: it very clear early on that they had things like
Speaker 1: the smoking gun and it was going to be a
Speaker 1: slam dunk case, their surveillance footage, DNA ballistics, all of it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: In an attempt to avoid a trial, prosecutors offered Chelsea
Speaker 1: a plea deal. The proposal would have required her to
Speaker 1: admit guilt in exchange for a sentence in a range
Speaker 1: of twenty seven to thirty one years in prison. It
Speaker 1: was a deal that would have guaranteed she would eventually
Speaker 1: be released, though only after decades behind bars. Without this offer,
Speaker 1: she could be facing life without the possibility of parole,
Speaker 1: and Chelsea rejected the deal.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Instead, she maintained that while she had in fact killed
Speaker 1: Matthew Dunmyer, she's admitting it, the act she committed did
Speaker 1: not rise to the level of first degree murder. Her
Speaker 1: defense signaled an intention to argue that the killing was
Speaker 1: tied to pass trauma and not the result of long
Speaker 1: term planning. It's a very risky strategy, to say the least,
Speaker 1: especially given the evidence in the existence of things like
Speaker 1: the drafted suicide note they found in her phone, which
Speaker 1: show premeditation. Now, for years, the case moved slowly through
Speaker 1: the federal system. Pre trial motions were filed, evidence was
Speaker 1: reviewed and challenged, but all the while, prosecutors remained confident,
Speaker 1: while the defense weighed the growing reality that the jury
Speaker 1: might see the case very differently than they hoped. Then, finally,
Speaker 1: in March of twenty twenty five, just weeks before her
Speaker 1: case was scheduled to go to trial, Chelsea Perkins changed course, and,
Speaker 1: after years of denying criminal intent and rejecting earlier plea offers,
Speaker 1: she entered a guilty plea to second degree murder and
Speaker 1: to using and discharging a firearm during a crime of
Speaker 1: violence on federal property. As part of the agreement, prosecutors
Speaker 1: dropped the first degree murder charge, and the decision spared
Speaker 1: both sides a very lengthy trial, but it did not
Speaker 1: soften the reality of what Chelsea admitted to doing. In court,
Speaker 1: she acknowledged that she had shot Matthew Dunmyer in the
Speaker 1: woods of Cuyahouga Valley National Park. When asked directly if
Speaker 1: she committed the act, she answered quietly quote yes. At
Speaker 1: sentencing in September of twenty twenty five, the judge described
Speaker 1: the case as one of the most difficult ones he
Speaker 1: had to preside over. He acknowledged the history of trauma
Speaker 1: presented by the defense and recognized that Chelsea's actions were
Speaker 1: motivated by revenge rather than financial or impulsive gain, or
Speaker 1: anything along those lines, but at the same time he
Speaker 1: emphasized that the crime was in fact very deliberate. It
Speaker 1: involved planning, and resulted in the execution style killing of
Speaker 1: an unarmed man. Chelsea Perkins was sentenced to twenty two
Speaker 1: and a half year in federal prison. The court allowed
Speaker 1: her to serve her time in a facility closer to
Speaker 1: her family, which was a small concession with credit for
Speaker 1: time served, so she will likely be in her mid
Speaker 1: to late fifties before she's eligible for release. Chelsea at
Speaker 1: sentencing stood firm, and she told the court she accepted
Speaker 1: responsibility for her actions, and when she was led away
Speaker 1: to begin her sentence, the legal system considered the case finished.
Speaker 1: For everyone else involved, The impact was only beginning, though.
Speaker 1: Matthew Dunmyer, while he was thirty one years old when
Speaker 1: he was killed, he never saw his children grow up,
Speaker 1: and whatever complexities existed in his life, whatever allegations followed him,
Speaker 1: his death froze everything in place. His children would come
Speaker 1: to know their father through memories through secondhand stories in
Speaker 1: court records rather than presents. His absence created a void
Speaker 1: that no ruling or sentence could ever repair. Chelsea's children,
Speaker 1: while they were young when their mother was arrested, they
Speaker 1: are now watching her through prison visits. It's media coverage
Speaker 1: and legal headlines instead of everyday life. By the time
Speaker 1: she's eligible for release, they will be adults who spent
Speaker 1: most of their formative years without her. The consequences of
Speaker 1: her decision extended far beyond the man that she killed. Now,
Speaker 1: this case offers no clean moral resolution like many of
Speaker 1: our cases actually do. Instead, though this one forces some
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable questions about trauma, justice and the limits of
Speaker 1: the legal system. Chelsea Perkins reported that Matthew dun Meyer
Speaker 1: had sexually assaulted and raped her years earlier. Prosecutors reviewed
Speaker 1: the allegations and declined to file charges, citing insufficient evidence,
Speaker 1: and Matthew Dunmeyer was never convicted of that crime. For
Speaker 1: many survivors of sexual violence, this outcome is painfully familiar.
Speaker 1: Most assaults are never reported. Of those that are few,
Speaker 1: while the few resultant charges or convictions, victims have a
Speaker 1: fear of retaliation, how they're going to be pursued, and
Speaker 1: the burden of proof. Well, it often leaves victims feeling
Speaker 1: very exposed and very unprotected. So when justice feels out
Speaker 1: of reach, the emotional weight does not disappear. It lingers,
Speaker 1: and it simmers, and it results in people taking matter
Speaker 1: into their own hands. And there is an old saying,
Speaker 1: I will put it here just for context, because hey,
Speaker 1: I think it fits dramatically. Two wrongs do not make
Speaker 1: a right. Whether Matthew did what Chelsea alleged is never
Speaker 1: going to be known. But what we do know is
Speaker 1: people who commit crimes like that get away with it
Speaker 1: far too often. And Chelsea clearly felt a need to
Speaker 1: take matters into her own hands, just like well Matthew's
Speaker 1: mother did. What followed in this case was not justice,
Speaker 1: though many people sought to find it. It was instead escalation.
Speaker 1: Planning replaced accountability, revenge replaced due process. And for that reason,
Speaker 1: I do not think anyone is guilt free in this story.
Speaker 1: It's just too hard to let someone walk away with
Speaker 1: a crime. The trail where Matthew was found eventually returned
Speaker 1: to silence. Hikers passed through once again. Seasons have changed,
Speaker 1: but for the people left behind, the story has not faded.
Speaker 1: It became something they carried forward, a reminder of how
Speaker 1: quickly unresolved trauma can spiral into irreversible harm, and how violence,
Speaker 1: once unleashed, rarely remains contained. The law closed this file,
Speaker 1: but the consequences did not. And that's the story of
Speaker 1: Matthew Dunmeyer and Chelsea Perkins.
Speaker 2: Oh, that one's rough.
Speaker 1: It is rough, And I mentioned that we would kind
Speaker 1: of talk about some of the gray areas of why
Speaker 1: there's so many gray areas in this case, it's because
Speaker 1: everything did not get resolved in court. The first one,
Speaker 1: the alleged sexual allegations. Those never went to trial due
Speaker 1: to insufficient evidence, so we don't know what evidence was
Speaker 1: put forth. Those never made it public. And in Chelsea's case,
Speaker 1: she took a plea deal, So her story on what
Speaker 1: their meeting was about or how things began again, we'll
Speaker 1: never see the light of day because it didn't go
Speaker 1: to trial to become public information. Right, So all that
Speaker 1: is taped away in boxes through her accounts that she
Speaker 1: may never tell and will not We won't know unless
Speaker 1: she chooses to speak out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very tough because like in her mind, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm sure she you know, felt he needed to die, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because of what he did to her. And maybe she's
Speaker 2: totally fine paying the price for that now, right, But that,
Speaker 2: like you said, too, wrongs do not make it right
Speaker 2: because the life that she's getting to live now, I
Speaker 2: mean can't be great.
Speaker 1: No. Well, and Matthew's mother's gone, another person got shot
Speaker 1: and drug into it. His father is also serving time
Speaker 1: in jail. Like it's it creates more chaos. Yeah, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I personally am an advocate for there
Speaker 1: needs to be harsher things. Harsher penalties are charges in
Speaker 1: accordance to sexual predators, especially when it comes to those
Speaker 1: who target children. There needs to be some more shit done. However,
Speaker 1: there's a fine fine line. You need to still have evidence,
Speaker 1: you need to still be able to prove things. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, of course, people don't want to
Speaker 1: speak up. It's becomes a story of their word versus
Speaker 1: their word. It's such a convoluted situation. There is no
Speaker 1: right answer. But certainly taking matters into your own hands
Speaker 1: is going to result in other shit happening, not necessarily
Speaker 1: just to you, but other people too. It's not going
Speaker 1: to end the way you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I said it earlier, like just a mess.
Speaker 2: This is a mess. I couldn't imagine the investigators, you know,
Speaker 2: like just waiting for what's going to happen next.
Speaker 1: Really no kidding in this, so no kidding.
Speaker 2: And it is really too bad though that there wasn't
Speaker 2: enough evidence, right, and like you've said, in a lot
Speaker 2: of cases, there isn't enough evidence when it comes to
Speaker 2: sexual assaults and stuff, and that it sucks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well in a lot of cases too, Like sexual
Speaker 1: assaults take advantage of women and people in terrible situations.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's someone who you know what could be homeless
Speaker 1: or struggling with addictions. Authorities have a very bad rap
Speaker 1: of not listening or believing people in those situations. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: so people just get away with it and keep walking, right,
Speaker 1: nothing happens. Who are they going to believe the person
Speaker 1: who sexually assaulted them or the person who's living on
Speaker 1: a street, And do you have that perspective? Authorities just, well,
Speaker 1: it's bias. And so now people who hear these stories
Speaker 1: of biasness, well, they don't want to come forward because
Speaker 1: they don't want to be rejected or ridiculed. Of course,
Speaker 1: even if you have a situation of two individuals that
Speaker 1: the police will respect and listen to equally, it becomes
Speaker 1: their word versus your word. What evidence do you have?
Speaker 1: Sexual assaults? Guess what, they don't happen right in front
Speaker 1: of a camera. You don't have a rape kit or
Speaker 1: anything like that. You're not doing an interview with them,
Speaker 1: trying to get like secret audio of like tell me
Speaker 1: you're raping me right now so I can give it
Speaker 1: to evident like that. It just doesn't happen. What evidence
Speaker 1: can you find?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and even maybe at one point, like it
Speaker 2: was consensual and then it turned not right, and so
Speaker 2: then it's like, how do you go about proving that
Speaker 2: it's just really hard and not Okay?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's it's a tough situation, but authorities certainly
Speaker 1: need to be trying to evolve it and do more
Speaker 1: in those situations. But again, where does that answer lie?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just do know that two wrongs
Speaker 1: do not make it right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's really the best way you can put
Speaker 2: it for this case, because yeah, a lot of people
Speaker 2: have have have to deal with shit going forward now
Speaker 2: to like Chelsea's kids, right, they don't have their mom
Speaker 2: with them, so that I don't know, that's not great
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 1: The entire thing is really a tragedy. And honestly, I
Speaker 1: could go on forever on this one, because there's the
Speaker 1: more you dig, the more your perception and opinions change,
Speaker 1: and you go this way that way, and you talk.
Speaker 1: I'm debating myself in my own mind over this one.
Speaker 1: So I could go on forever. But I do want
Speaker 1: to thank you guys for being here. This is quite
Speaker 1: the story. Let us know your opinion. If you have
Speaker 1: any shoot us a message in email or comment or
Speaker 1: anything like that. Links are all on the description of
Speaker 1: this podcast. We really appreciate you being here. Because of you,
Speaker 1: we get to keep doing what we do. We're an
Speaker 1: independent podcast, researched, host it, produce all of it. It's us.
Speaker 1: We are a team. There's no one pulling the strings.
Speaker 2: But us, just us, just us.
Speaker 1: Just highlight the word just ready.
Speaker 2: I know you like that, So until next time, stay wicked.