Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinganas show.
He just had me on his show, so Charlie Yankee,
I asked him to come on. But I think this
is going to be multiple episodes and I'm really excited.
How are you doing, Tyler great?
Speaker 2: By the way, I trolled you into putting libertarian in
your podcast title in a positive way, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: No problem at all. It's fine.
Speaker 2: I'm kidding.
Speaker 1: I know that you're I know that you live in
the real world. You're one of the you you still
live in the real world, so.
Speaker 2: You keep reminding me of what the real world is.
So I appreciate that. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Cool. We're gonna talk about We're gonna probably do a
few episodes on the Leo Frank trial, if everybody's up
for that. Let's start with this. Why do you think
you're what do you what special? What's special powerity you
have that you can really talk about the Leo Frank
trial and you think you can that some other people can't.
Speaker 2: Well, as you heard, my name's German, So no, that's
not a reason. Well, I'm an attorney, and by the way,
that doesn't necessarily do anything. But if you if you
went to law school correctly, what they try to teach
you is to how to think like an attorney, and
some of that is being skeptical and maybe not so
cynical and then just not taking everything at face value
and what's underneath. So great question as to well what
makes me is then I'm very skeptical on things as
an example, and people may hate me for this, but
things come up and we just love to take whatever
our our party's service. Kill Dozer is a great example.
This is people love to talk about the guy that
killed those I think is in Granby, Colorado, goes out
kills people with his big thing because he's pushed up
against the state. Did you kill anybody he tried to? Yeah? Good,
thank you and this is important right, which is but
I think he was just mentally deranged. He said he
was doing what God told him to. So having a
spokesman for your cause, be careful with that. Koppernick's another
one where he has you know, castro on his shirt
and he's talking about police state abuse. Well, that doesn't
really work, So you don't have to overdo it. You
can pick right people that help represent your causes. And
then if you don't play into the propaganda side. It's
helpful as well. So I think I'm good about trying
to see problems areas and then using the right people
for the right reasons. And this is a prime example,
the Leo Frank issue case, where they took a despicable person,
they tried to hold him upon a pedestal, and then
to push an agenda.
Speaker 1: All right, so yeah, let's let's get into it. Give
us a little bit of background on, well what happened?
Why did why did the police arrest Leo Frank?
Speaker 2: Leo Frank, Leo Frank, the Jewish man from New York, Brooklyn.
He was twenty nine years old. He had moved down
to Atlanta, down in the South. He was actually born
in Texas. When he was three months old, they moved
to New York. His grandfather was a Confederate slaveholder, so
just keep that in mind. So he's down he runs
this pencil factory, it's called the National Pencil Factory. MPC
might be something involved in there, So you make the
joke there. I can't quite tie it in, but it
feels like it. And I'll just call MPC from now
on with that. So he's the supervisor down there and
a girl gets married. It's Confederate Day. It's like the
Memorial Day for the South. It's a Saturday round noon
the stroke. I don't get into too much detail, but
why was he arrested is the strolls murdered and they
found her in the factory. And there's only a few
suspects that can be and he's one of them that
the police think that he may be involved.
Speaker 1: So he was at factory on a Saturday, which tells
me that he probably wasn't a practicing.
Speaker 2: Jew exactly.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: No, he was the president of the Bena Brith, like
the secret society, not secret, but it's a Jewish community
down and he was the president at twenty nine. Okay,
he was a reform Jew. He had a rabbi, Rabbi Marxi,
believe in anything, so exactly exactly, And by the way,
that's that's a great thought, because that's what I thought too.
I'm like, he's working on a Saturday. He always works
on a Saturday. That's a problem, but not for him,
I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I guess one of the things that a
lot of people don't realize is and as someone who
lived in Atlanta for seventeen years. It's always had a
very large Jewish There's been a large Jewish population there
for a long time. I remember living out in Conus,
which is outside of Atlanta to the east. One town
over is Covington, And there's this long road called Salem Road.
Anyone who's driven across I twenty maybe you've noticed it.
Salem Road is that whole area. There's miles upon miles,
I mean, just thousands of acres that was owned by
someone named Salem who was Jewish and way back in
the day. And like you said, Leo frank hat an
uncle who was a slave owner in this So when
people start looking at like when they start having the
opinion that and this is what I've what I've seen
over and over again, and E. Michael Jones talked about
this on the episode we did together. When people have
the opinion that in nineteen thirteen the Klan or pretty
much anyone else down there, there was this large antisemitic
kind of geist where it was just who they were,
completely false, completely false.
Speaker 2: And by the way, there's so many strings you can
pull on this, I believe. So there's three phases of
the Ku Klux Klan. Okay, we don't necessarily need to
get into all of it. But the more you know,
people think about the Ku Klux Klan now and their
marches against the Jewish people, that was not the original.
The first section of the Clan, which is what early
eighteen sixties to ended about eighteen seventy, there were Jewish members. Yeah,
there were Jewish members in the Klan, even the second one,
which they say starts in nineteen fifteen, and some of
it they try to tie in with the Leo Frank
case the Knights of Mary Fagan, which is very suspective
that's even the case. It's really the nation of the
birth of a nation d W. Griffith, his movie that
was a big deal off from the book The Clansmen,
and actually that kind of was a rebirth. But even
then that's still involved a lot of Jews, or a
decent amount. And I think that the pushback that the
Jews gave to the South in this case for this
despicable guy is actually what ended up making more of
a pushback against them, which was a later filler, perhaps
even into the Klan, probably the third wave.
Speaker 1: Right, the first plan was really a reaction to reconstruction exactly.
Nathan Bedford Forrest who picture on the picture on the
wall there, I'm in Alabama. We uh yeah, it's by
the way.
Speaker 2: It's it's interesting when you read about the Klan how
the first two disband almost it sounds like the Libertarian Party,
which is there's too much confusion. People are organization that
it really know what they're doing. And next thing you know, Bedford,
he's Forrest, He's like, hey, I'm out. I'm just banding
this thing as an example.
Speaker 1: So all right, so let's that's out of the way.
It wasn't this. They didn't look at him because they
didn't look at Leo Frank because he was a Jew.
They looked at Leo Frank because there was it was
only him and really one other person who had opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can walk through some of the timeline
with this if you want to. Actually, you know, before
in some in case someone's totally confused about what happened here,
this is nineteen thirteen to murder this girl. This guy
Leo Fanks, he's a Jew. He gets he goes to murder.
They said he murdered this girl. Out of this comes
the ADL and ADL is kind of what spurred some
of this, and there are a lot of ones that
are still pushing the propaganda. What's important also about this
is that the Brene Britt Banny Brith that he was
a president of that's where the ADL specifically came from.
So the birth of a nation and the birth of
the ADL all kind of at the same time.
Speaker 1: All Right, I know I'm going to get this wrong.
I might get this wrong, and I want to apologize,
but I do want to say hello to somebody who
after I did the Michael Jones episode, I really received
the newsletter her in my in my po box and
it was it's the Mary Mary Fagan Newsletter and it's
put out by the grand niece of Mary.
Speaker 2: Fagan, Mary Kate Fagan I think is her name or.
Speaker 1: Something, and I wanted to thank thank her for sending that.
That was a very interesting Uh, it's nice that people
are still doing newsletters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she put out a book trying to kind of
counter some of this. Uh, there's multiple books that Dennison,
this guy that wrote it in the sixties, Steve Oney
was a big one. And then anyway, go ahead, there's
I need to keep propping. But no.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so all right, so she's murdered. She's murdered in
the She's found in the factory itself. The factory is
owned by Leo Frank, and there's also a black gentleman
who the stories go that he mopped the floors everything,
that he just stood by the front door. And it
appears that when it comes to the investigation, there's only
two possible people who could have done it, this black
gentleman named Jim Connolly and the owner of the factory,
Leo Frank. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So to start out with, Mary goes to pick
her paycheck up at the pencil factory. Now I don't
think he owned it. I think his uncle actually owned it.
He was a superintendent. Doesn't matter, it's all family. So
she goes to pick up her paycheck on Saturday. Saturday
was a holiday, it was closed. They typically pick it
up on Friday. And one of the things is her
friend went to pick it up for and Leo's like, no, no, no,
She's got to come here herself, which was not usual
because friends picked up paychecks for each other all the time.
There she comes there, she's off on this trolley with
one of her friends. She gets off and now the
timelines gets important. She had cabbage for lunch, which actually
comes out to be kind of the forensics that you
have with this. She comes to the factory around noon
and she and Leo she comes to get her money.
She gets it from him, He signs off in the
thing and he is the last one to ever see her. Now,
Jim Connolly, who you mentioned, Yeah, he's kind of your
darrelic guy that works there at the Do you mind
if I say the N word? And he's considered even
by other ones, they call him a low level nigger,
so that's just, you know, the way to describe him.
Of course, we're talking about nineteen thirteen here, and he's
at the place, but her body is not discovered until
the night watchman Newt Lee is another black man, finds
her about three in the morning, tries to call Leo
Frank not to get called the police, and then they
come over there. As it works out much later down
the line, Jim Connolly admits to knowing something about the murder,
So essentially, yes, to answer your question, he Jim Connolly
and Leo Frank are the only two it could possibly be.
Connolly points the finger of Frank. Frank now has to
point the finger back of Connolly. But even to get there, Pete,
Leo Frank tries to pin the murder on a white guy.
He then tries to pin it on Newt Lee. He
then tries to pin it on Connolly. So he's always
pinning it on someone else, and the black guys are
the ones that he really tries to emphasize.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would seem to make sense because of the
tenor of the South at that point. And yeah, so
all right, what leads them? What evidence? I mean, you
don't need a you don't need to build the case
before you arrest someone. You just need some kind of
substantial evidence to what is it that they they find?
What's the evidence that leads to Leo Frank being arrested?
Speaker 2: So, yeah, Newtly, like I said, the night Watchman, he
finds her down in the basement. He doesn't even know
if she's a white girl, black girl. Her face is
so messed up and it's kind of dark down there.
So he calls the police. They come over, they question him,
and you know, immediately, hey, black guy, young girl. She's thirteen,
by the way, young girl. He's probably the one so,
but he's all straight up about everything that's going on.
So they arrest him. Then they they're they're immediately somewhat
I don't know if there's suspicious or Leo frank, but
they at least do some good police work where they
don't just give it away like you're the white guy.
Of course, she had nothing to do with it. They
called him up, he answers, and they're like, hey, we're
going to have to come get you in the morning.
They go to pick him up, and he is super nervous,
like over the top right. Then that's where they start
to be suspicious. They ask him if he knows who
this Mary Fagan girl is, and he's like, I don't,
I don't know. May off to check my books. It's
all important later on because he had multiple interactions with her,
so of course you'd know who it is. I think
the night watchman did tell the police right that he
had that Leo had called him around seven or eight
that night, which had never done, asking if is everything okay,
So there was already a little bit of suspicion. They
take him to the not the corner, but where she's
being in turn or her body's there at the I
guess the corner's office and Leo Frank went look at her.
He's really super nervous. Then when they get him over
to the factory and they're walking him through, he is
he's acting really weird, so they're immediately on edge and
he ends up they take him into the to the
police station after that evening or that morning and walking around,
and they actually tried to have him interrogate Newt Lee
to get some evidence out of him, which ends up
just going not too good for either party, but they're
both arrested. They end up arresting Jim Connolly as well,
and he hangs out in jail for several weeks.
Speaker 1: So from what I understand from reading other things that
Leo when they brought him to the factory, he was
he was so nervous and shaken that he couldn't like,
he couldn't hold things in his hand. He was just
he was a complete wreck. And obviously he was nervous
that he that he was caught. But I guess the
hard I guess the thing about the whole trial or
the whole case, is that how quickly do we get
to the point where his lawyers show up and make
it all about, you know, the deflection away and how
he's a pillar of the community, YadA, YadA, YadA, all
this all that.
Speaker 2: So not really yet. Matter of fact, it doesn't get
into the till we're into the trial where they start
to that's by the way, so I know I've heard
you talk about it. He was the only thing they
charged him with were murder, Okay, that was it. It
wasn't rape, by the way. We can talk a little
bit about that, because that's actually somewhat questionable. But even
then to the same way back in nineteen thirteen, is
it pretty much is today. You can't try to prosecute
someone on their character, and you know, like a prostitute.
Don't get to say, oh, she's a prostitute, that's why
she was raped. No, no, no. But if they bring
up his good character, you can rebut it with bad character.
And that's one of the mistakes that they started to do,
was they wanted to show his good character in him
being a pillar of the community during the trial, and
then what it allowed everyone to do was to bring
in all these instances where he wasn't and some of
the salacious stuff that he was doing in the building
bringing girls in, touching them, looking in the bathroom all
the time, opening their door when they're dressing, all these
kind of things, and then specifically the stuff that Jim
Connolly was able to testify against.
Speaker 1: It all about was there ever a I just want
to pick one thing out before I forget it is?
Was there ever an attempt to pay Jim Connolly to
admit guilt?
Speaker 2: So Jim Connolly is, he's the guy that works there.
His deal with Leo was he would have him come
in on certain days and this is the day he
said it was supposed to be the case. Well, and
by the way, he's in jail because why not lock
up the black guy will just and he's kind of
sitting there. After a few weeks, he finally is like,
let me talk to someone. He wants to start telling
them some stuff. The reason he wanted to start telling
him things was because he then he changes his stories
multiple times. Okay, so it's a little bit problematic. But
when he does testify sixteen straight hours, cross examined by
some of the best lawyers in the country, let alone
the South, he holds steady and it's it's pretty stellar.
What he claims is that he is supposed to be
watching out for Leo. Leo brings girls in there. They
just want to talk. Leo says, tell you what I
taped my foot. You shut the door when I whistle,
you open it and we're done. And he's like he
had done that multiple times for him. Different girls would
come in. He seemed to like the plump girls. I
don't know if that was the reason, but Jim Connolly
did mention that multiple times on the On the testimony.
Speaker 1: Jim Connolly may have been projecting.
Speaker 2: What's hilarious, pee imagine this. Leo is sitting there, you know,
he's the defense. He's at this table, his wife is there.
The whole time. Jim's talking about all these other girls.
And at one point he does an antecdote about Leo
Frank talking about a watch, because Jim connolly had bought
a watch and he borrowed money from Leo. So Leo's
actually takes money out of his pay and he's like,
I don't know why you want it. Does what Leo
says to Frank and he's testifying to this, He goes,
I don't know why you would want this watch? He goes,
my wife, that fat lady. She wants to watch, and
I don't want to get her. So he's outwardly ripping
on his wife as she's in court. I don't know
humorous to me, that's all I'm saying, Okay, let's get back.
Which is he He says that Leo gave him a
water cash two hundred dollars to burn the body. Basically,
he says, she hit her head. I put myself upon her.
She didn't want like what I was, you know, trying
to come on to her. She resisted. I hit her,
and then he goes, she hit her head and then
she's dead. So he wanted in to have him help
dispose of the body. He gives impe this might be
the most without trying to stereotype. He gives him two
hundred dollars to dispose of the body, and then he
goes takes it back and he says, I'll pay you when,
I'll pay you when it's done. So what does Connelly do?
He's like whatever, and he went out to the bar.
He didn't burn her body. And that might be your refusal,
your insistence on keeping the money. It might have been
what actually caused him to get it. Ultimately get caught.
Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, the stereo right, No one, you know, really,
no group can escape stereotypes. I mean you mentioned that
Mary Fagan, You mentioned Mary Fagan and cabbage, and I'm
just like, well, the stereotypes are just flowing all through
this one.
Speaker 2: By the way. That and I think it's important at
some point, it's your show, but you do as a
at some point, let's talk about the South a little
bit more depth and how it actually was. She was
Irish Catholic. The cabbage is important because they were able
to establish a timeline. Okay, she dies around twelve thirty.
She had eaten this stuff like eleven thirty. Her mom said,
so the digestion and how it's done. They can actually say, hey,
this is approximate timeframe, which is very important because Leo
said I never left my office from twelve to one
and didn't even go outside of the office itself. So
but her being Irish Catholic is also in because Tom Watson,
who ended up being a big publisher, wrote stuff there
is an attorney. Uh, he came into light with this
whole fiasco. He was very anti Catholic, so for him
to support her and support the black guy over Leo
with something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. The uh, all right, so let's get back.
Let's go back to this. So you have Jim Connolly there,
you have a newly What eventually is it that causes
the district attorney to say, this is the guy we're
going to charge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, once again, he was evasive, He was very nervous.
He didn't you know, some of his actions were always
putting the police a little bit on edge. He goes
in immediately with the police, he's got They so what
they had to do at the time, they had to
as a time card though night Watchman had to punch
in every thirty minutes. Okay, few things that kind of
set them off. To begin with Newt Lee the night Watchman.
He was told to come in early that day, four
o'clock rather than five because Leo was going to go
to a baseball game with his brother in law. Gentile
brother in law by the way. I don't know if
that has anything to do with it, but we just
throw that out there. He shows up at four and
he said Leo was acting really weird and basically shoot
him out. Said no, no, you just you need to leave,
go hang out, go sleep somewhere. Come back at six
and He's like, well, can I just sleep downstairs? And
he's like, no, no, no, you can't do that. So but
the rule was when the night watchman shows up, he
can't leave the building. So one he let him do
that comes back. And then you have some other instances
of which is Leo's there. Girls start coming in to
pick up their people. Saw Mary Fagan come in at
twelve o'clock. Never leave, there's not you know, this building's
closed for the most part. Another girl shows up at
twelve oh five. She says she sits in Leo's office.
He's not in there. She waits for five minutes Montine
Stover is her name, and then leaves leaves, so he wasn't.
So you have a problem, which is during this time
period he says he's never left his office. Someone is
there specifically that sees he's not in his office at all,
so he's somewhere. And then a few other people here
and there. There's a big guy that had just been
fired that I get into too much. His name is Gant,
last name is Gant. He's a big, tall guy. He
shows up to pick up some shoes that he had
left at the building, and Leo comes out with this
new league guy when he's trying to dismiss him, and
this guy's like, I want my boots now he had
just fired him. There's rumor that Leo Frank had said
to this to someone else. He and Mary are pretty tight.
This is well before, so there's a thought process of
maybe a conspiracy theory that he had fired this guy
to get to marry himself. And anyway, this guy shows up,
he's nervous and all. So those are the kind of
the aspects that really started to bring the I forgot
to say the checking in of the the time card.
So when the police are there with him, he looks
at Newt Lee's time card and he says, it's all good.
He's checked in and everyone looked at it just fine.
A few days later he then says, oh, I found
his time card and he wasn't punched in two different times.
That was plenty of time to go to his house
and dispose of whatever he needed to do, so you
may want to check on him. The police go to
his house and in a barrel they find a bloody shirt. Okay,
so now this is like Tuesday afterwards, so as they
start to investigate the shirt though, it looks like it
was wadded up and wiped with blood or they wiped
blood with it, so if you were to put it on,
it doesn't match up anywhere the armpits the corner said,
or the investigator said, they weren't stained. Immediately, that's where
the police realized that Leo is trying to set up
newt Lee with a fake bloody shirt and a time
stamp that had been altered because they had all seen
it at the scene of the crime the day of
the after the murder, that he had not missed any punches.
So immediately the police are already suspecting that, which is
an amazing thing to think of that. You know, blacks
were lynched pretty good in Atlanta for you know, supposed
crimes against girls, and you have a situation that's ripe
for that two black men and Leo though, is the
one that they at least hone in on. Immediately, I
wanted to go back.
Speaker 1: To something you had mentioned earlier. You had mentioned Connolly
him offering Connolly two hundred dollars to burn the body.
When when was that.
Speaker 2: Allegedly like what the day of the murder.
Speaker 1: The day of the murder?
Speaker 2: Okay, so what happened there is Connolly is watching out
she comes in. He's watching like he's supposed to be's
sitting at the front on a bucket or something. He
actually says he hears him knocking, and so he locks
the door. He's making sure no one's coming in there
because he wants to, you know, chat with her, is
what he says. Then he hears some footsteps down the hall.
A little bit later, he hears a scream that gets muffled,
and then hears tiptoeing coming back, and a little bit
here he's the whistle to come back up to him.
That's when Leo says to him, look, I did this
to this girl. I killed her. I didn't mean to,
but you need to help me get rid of the body.
So that's when they take her downstairs to the basement.
Leo really doesn't want anything to do with it, and
then he tells him you need to. We're going to
write these letters. There's a big deal too. There's like
these notes that you're going to put out there, and
he has Connolly write them. And Connolly does it. You know,
it's a bonyx. He knows like five words, but he
struggles to write him puts him there and it says basically,
the night watchman is the one who did this, as
if the killers or if she is right, it's super
confusing even to try to read him. And that's when
he says, here's the money, and then he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I don't want you to come back and come back
and burn her and then anyway, so that But you
know what's interesting to me is connolly. I mean, this
is a guy that was willing to take some money
to burn a young girl and then kept quiet, and
then when he was in prison for a while, finally
he's like, I don't think I'm going to get paid,
so now I better come true with my story. This
guy isn't the best now. He was a drunk. He'd
love to just go to the bars. He said he
paid repaid debts with beers. It sounds like a fun
guy to hang out with, but it also is a
lot of complaints about him peeing on the pencils, he
took a dump down in the basement. When I'm first
reading this, because one of the first things I read
was the later on, Governor Slayton makes a decision whether
or not to commute him, and he has a whole
report about it, and he does not like this condy guy.
You know, it's a despicable person. You know, you're urinating
on the on the on the walls and stuff. But
and I take that. You know, the urination, the defecating
in the basement out that seems bad. But when you
read some of the transcripts, you realize that that's kind
of what they expected the black guys to do, like
they had white bathrooms. So he's like, I'm just doing
this now. Peen on the pencil seems a little bit
over the top.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems a little savage. But that's fun. Yeah, yeah,
all right, something that you had mentioned. Let's let's go
over this. It is clearly, I mean pretty much everyone
who knows anything about this knows that she was murdered,
but also that she was raped. And you said that
that's questionable. Why is that questionable?
Speaker 2: One? They didn't charge him for that. That the corner
did an extensive analysis of her and her genitalia and
her vagina at the time, there was no seminal fluid found.
He said that there was appeared to be some internal
they called it violence, but then even on Cross he's
kind of you know, it looks like something happened that
wasn't just normal, right, So something happened. Now what's interesting
is when Leo Frank tells, and this is just goes
to fascinating stuff. When he's telling Connolly that he did this,
he said, you know, I struck her, and then he says,
you know, I'm not built like most men. Now there's
a I don't know what that means. Connelly seems to think,
because they asked him in the trial, well, what does
that mean to you? He's like, well, I've walked in
on him before and he's had his head between the
legs of women of a woman basically, you know. So
I think his implication of that is like, he's not
built like a normal man. Maybe he has rectile dysfunction problems,
so maybe he was digitally penetrating her with his hand.
That's kind of the idea. Others seem to think that
that what he meant by that was he was just
a frail, young, skinny guy and that hitting a girl,
you wouldn't expect her to hit her head and die.
I don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when did they talk about Connolly getting really
finally getting released.
Speaker 2: So they have him several times for a few weeks
in the in the cells before the trial where he's
changing his story. Now when it finally comes out and
he's got the full story of what happened, you know,
the money changing or almost changing hands, the getting told
that there was you know that by Leo that he
had murdered her, trying to bring the body, all that stuff.
He had gone through about three different iterations of a
declaration an affidavit to the court, and he had changed
his story. So obviously, when you have someone conscious continuously
changing your story when you come to court, that's going
to be something that they're really going to hound on.
And his point was I buy it, which is, look,
I was supposed to get this money. I didn't get
the money. Now I'm worried he's going to come after me,
but I'm still like, I don't want to bury him.
He might give me the money. So he changes the
story a little bit until the end where he's just like,
now this is I'm done. I don't want to get
pointed the finger at so I'm going to completely give
my full indication of the story. And then you know
there's accusations that have come out later on that he
was coached by a Dorsey, the prosecutor, And I don't
think that's the case so much. I mean, like, what's
just a few interesting things. Four week trial, okay, longest
that they had had in at least Atlanta or or Georgia,
probably in the South, maybe in the US at the time,
So a long trial. Mister connolly is testifies for two days,
two three days, sixteen hours of testimony, and up until
this time, even being able as a black man, being
able to testify in court was just verboting. It wasn't happening.
So you know, he side note here if you think
about this, a black man testifies for three days against
a white guy. Let's say this guy is a Christian, okay,
and he's guilty. At what point is this not your
Rosa Parks guy. I mean that this it blows me
away that he wasn't acknowledged as such.
Speaker 1: Right. I'm just thinking about all the people who are
screaming at the screen right now, going Leo Frank's not white,
wasn't white.
Speaker 2: But Pete he was not considered anything but at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing. That's the thing about the
South too, is Jews were considered white in the South. Yeah,
they were Jewish slave owners. There were Judah Benjamin who
was the treasurer. Treasurer of the Confederacy was Jewish, Jewish
slave owners. Jews. Sorry, but they the black Hebrew Israelites,
all right, they did. They did run the slave trade.
And I mean they were considered to be Southerners. There's
no doubt that's inarguable. In nineteen thirteen.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think they actually I saw a video
and I think I played on my first episode I'd
kind of done in this, uh where a guy in
the South and he's like, you know, who's a Jew?
And he's like, oh, but you're I'm a Southerner. I
mean that's kind of like the mentality is just, well,
you're a Southerner and that might be more beneficial or
strong as a communal tie, tribe wise, than than being
a Jew at the time. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So all right, Uh Newt Lee had how
long is he held then? What what does he contribute
to that end up contributing? Uh?
Speaker 2: So, Newt Lee, I think he was a stand up
guy and he I don't know how long he was
held but just like Connolly and a few others, they
they they did figure out right away that he was
just not someone that was part of this. Now, once again,
as you mentioned right away and I've talked about, when
Connolly is basically given descriptions of the murder and and
what happened, and he's implicating himself by being part of this,
I think you can rule out almost everybody else but
Leo Frank and Connolly, right. I mean, is Connelly going
to say, yeah, this guy did it and I helped
tried to help do that. You wouldn't. You wouldn't even
do that at all. So I think what he's saying
is either full on true or he's the murder. There's
only two ways around it. And they felt pretty soon
that Newtlee wasn't part of this. Now, Leo Frank on
that first day is allowed to go and try to
interrogate newt Lee outside of the police, goes in there.
They said, hey, you're his boss, maybe you can get
him to say something. And the only thing they don't
really hear it because it's a little bit private. The
only thing they hear at the end is Leo Frank saying, look,
if you don't come through with this. We're both gonna
hang now. I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1: Is that an.
Speaker 2: Implication of I'm guilty or something. But pretty soon after that,
even when they found their shirt, they just didn't believe
that Newtlee was a part of this. So he was
immediately exonerated immediately for then, you know, fairly soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, let's talk about that. You're talking
about a time in the South where the war is
still h people are still talking about the war. I mean,
there are people alive who fought in the war. There
are people alive who lost their families to the war,
lost their land to the war, lost their homes to
the war. Yet in this Atlanta, in this Atlanta community,
they're willing to look past the two black guys and
pin it on someone who was considered white at the
time and a Southerner.
Speaker 2: And I think, by the way, I think when the
North really gets involved, and what I mean by that
is the newspapers he had New York Times, William Randolph
Hurst started sending people down there. The three big newspapers,
I think it was three in Atlanta were first against
Leo Frank and then they kind of come out for him.
There's a lot of a lot of interest in pressure
that's just being built around this, and I think it
just it. I don't know. I had a point there, Pete,
and I forgot it.
Speaker 1: I was talking about how they basically, at a time
when they definitely shouldn't wait, when you wouldn't have expected
them to overlook the two black guys, they went right
to someone who was actually considered one of them.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay. I got to appreciate that. That the mentality
of what you might think of the South as a
Northerner at that time, and I believe they thought it
was super country. You're not very sophisticated, and it's going
to be an easy task to exonerate this guy, and
then you have the black men down there, and even
Leo coming from the North. You look, he was a
mechanical engineer. I think he went to Cornell, so you know,
he was a fairly smart guy, thought a lot of himself.
And I think the status is really what helped the prosecution.
That the status on the other side, and they're believing
that they are just so much better, and that's not
necessarily jew or not. It It could just be that
the white status. You know, how dare you have a
black man even testify against me? So I think that
made a big difference.
Speaker 1: Now I want to leave anything about the trial for
the next episode. When do the newspapers start getting because
when you start looking into actually the number, I don't
even know if we need to go into it until
the trial starts. But when you start looking at the
amount of money that was thrown at this trial to
make Leo, to prove that Leo Frank was innocent, I
think I've read that it was twenty eight million dollars
in like twenty twenty three dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I had read twenty five. It depends on
when you convert that. Obviously, you know inflation going where
the numbers. But let's even let's even say twenty five
twenty eight million doesn't really matter, you know that I
would love to have that kind of money for it. Now,
it wasn't all defense that goes through all the appeals
that he has. And by the way, this also goes
towards much more than that, which is the investigators that
they ended up getting, because that ends up playing a
huge part. The NPC ends up hiring two big investigation
companies both out of town. They come out there to
find the murder and to exonerate Leo Frank doesn't help
so much. So there was a lot of money rolling around. Now,
you know you mentioned just we said two hundred dollars
that he was going to pay him. This guy, Frank
Connolly was paid around six dollars a week.
Speaker 1: Jim, So what did I say, Jim Connolly? You said, Frank.
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a lot of names. Yeah, Jim con thank you.
By the way, Jim Connolly gets paid around six dollars
a week. Do you throw two hundred dollars at this guy?
That's a lot of money. So a lot of this
twenty five thousand was later on trying to have people
change their testimony, try to have other people make false testimony,
that they were just throwing money every which way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, from what I understand, they may have even brought
the pinkertons in And it was Leo Frank's people who
brought the pinker and tends it in to investigate and
basically they were hired to prove his innocence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, them, and I want to say the Burks, there
was another one or something like this, And there's this
guy Burns. I think he was a famous investigator. He
was a bit trash and he had problems. But the
Pinkertons and this other investigator firm they testified at in
court for the prosecution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely amazing that you this guy was so
guilty that they they could they couldn't do anything with it.
So what else up until Well, like I said, we'll
leave the trial for next time, But what are we missing?
What do you think is relevant up until the trial
that we've we haven't gone over.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's it's somewhat important to understand the
state of nineteen thirteen in Georgia. You know, reconstruction hadn't
been all that long ago. You had a lot of
this test This trial was full of like teenage girls
testifying that they you know, they're working in this factory,
so they're getting paid a pittance. Now, the ADL side
likes to raw these things out as problems. Why Leo
Frank was hated, right, he was hated. He was a
Jewish owner of a factory. These girls weren't making much. Dad,
I don't think that would because that that tone did
not take place during the trial and even in the
newspapers until after the fact. Now it's fun to go
back and try to deal with today's hindsight. So that
was a but I think it meant something. I mean,
there was crime going on in Atlanta. Maybe you can
talk a little bit more about this. I know there
was a bull weavil issue out in the west and
so that the cottons Field was flying out there in Georgia,
but it was the downtown Atlanta and that area itself.
I don't know that they were necessarily doing so great.
So it's it's an interesting time to think about all
the different dynamics, and in the South specifically and in
that area, right.
Speaker 1: And you would think that if because the economy was
still trash because of everything that happened war, you would
think somebody who was successful as he was and is
working for a company that's obviously making money obviously, you know,
isn't paying their employees a lot of money. But I mean,
from what I understand, those wages weren't weren't much different
than most factory work at the time. That they weren't hated,
they weren't you know, the National Penicil Company wasn't looked
at as this yep, as they weren't looked at as
like carpetbaggers, which I mean, really right, which is really
what they should could be considered. They weren't looked at
that way. They weren't looked down upon. They were bringing
they brought jobs to the community. And yeah, I think
that's one of I think that's also one of the
reasons why they were so diligent in looking into this.
And you know, I don't think they wanted to blame
when you read it, they didn't want to blame Leo Frank.
They would have much rather blamed it on Conley or
even new Lee. But the evidence was just remarkable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and your carpetbagger comment is really interesting because I
think they come down and they're part of the community.
You know, they're they're involved in there. I mean, he
went out and did stuff with Connolly that day. They
walked to some store together, you know, they're hanging out,
whereas the carpetbagger is maybe down there. You know, I'm
not a big I don't know a ton about it,
but it's you know, the reconstruction. Those guys basically fleecing
a lot of our communities. Mary Fagan, she was only
she was there to pick. You know, thirteen year old
girl dollar twenty five is all she was getting paid
that day. I don't know, it's an interesting time to
look back on, you know, what your kids are doing
or the amount of money that was being pushed around
what a dollar was meant for at the time. But yeah,
that's that's kind of that time. Per oh h. Woodrow
Wilson was just elected president too, so we had that
going for us.
Speaker 1: The jeez, now you're depressing. Yeah, and let's talk about
I mean, thirteen year old girls. We think about that
now and we're like, it's insane to think about. But
when you look at like her life, I mean she
woke up and she went on the trolley by herself,
she stopped and would meet friends at a place to
eat by herself. I mean, these these girls were because
of what the situation was, and we've seen it in
other countries, especially like a lot of the Asian countries
coming out of coming out coming out of the war,
things like that. Yes, you would have to have what
would be considered now child labor. But also I mean
it seems like they you know, it forced them to
grow up a lot, a lot sooner and be a
lot more mature.
Speaker 2: Right, And one thing I was reading, which it isn't
necessarily how you want to grow up, is they're talking
about putting your daughter into one of these factories to
work is basically to prostitute her out. And they don't
mean like, oh, she's working for little money, and they
mean she's going to get sexually assaulted. So what I
couldn't quite get from the Corners report when he was
it almost sounds like he said her hymen was already broke,
and so there's a good idea. Maybe she wasn't even
a virgin. So I don't know if she had been
hooking up with Frank. It doesn't sound like it because Leo,
because she rebuffed him at this moment. But he was
definitely doing this with some others. So but yeah, he
was also with older women, So it's interesting. Do you
call him a pedophile? I don't, perhaps probably an hour
standard a time. I don't know what it was back then,
If that was completely off limits, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't think they I don't even
know if they had an age of consent at that
point anyway, Yeah, I don't think that comes until later.
Well up until I guess are we are we run
up to the trial here? Can we uh? Can we
cut this one and uh scheduling schedule another episode or no?
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's what's interesting about some of
these things is I don't know if you want to
talk about the news the North that we can cut it,
that's fine.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, yeah, let's let's save the news because that's
really that that's really when you start getting into the
trial too, when it's starting, when the influence you're they're
trying to influence everyone from public opinion to the lawyers,
to the judge to the Then you'll probably do a
whole episode on the governor.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm ready to go with him by the way too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, tell everybody plug whatever you want and
we'll come back episode two.
Speaker 2: Just go to Twitter. It's just yeah, Tyler monkey on Twitter, LPR.
If you go do rumble, that's another good way to
do it. So check out our stuff. But yeah, just
keep going, Pete.
Speaker 1: I appreciate him. Man, we'll schedule the next one. Talk
to you later.
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Then I want to welcome everyone back to the Peaking
Yana Show Part two with Tyler. Let's going on Tyler.
Speaker 2: How you doing good, Pete, thanks for once again for
having me. By the way, I heard your show with
Bird and I know exactly what he's saying when you
do the intro and you don't know what to say,
and here I am fucking it up. Thanks good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always weird. It's like, hi, right up, speak
it and turn it into.
Speaker 2: A question, right right?
Speaker 1: All right? So, after all the lead up to the
trial that we did last time, I want to talk
about the trial and the appeals today. So how did
this trial get started? I mean just go yeah, yeah,
that you're the lawyer, right.
Speaker 2: Let me start by saying there was a few slight
corrections I wanted to do from last time, and and
and what I would tell everybody is look there you
had posted it out on the internet as well on Twitter. Uh.
The seminal book for this is by the Nation of Islam,
The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews, The Leo Frank
Case Lynching of a Guilty Man, Volume three. I think
that's what it is. Yeah, there you go. Fantastic. It's
it is so well documented it is unbelievable. Now they
throw a few good nuggets in here that you know
because they come from it from a little bit different perspective.
But I just thought they did an amazing job at it.
I don't know what you're thinking of it. With that
in mind, there is so much pleadings out there. There
are so many, you know, books written on it. There
was where they say a million words of just the
actual legal filings in this case. Uh So, with that
in mind, there's a ton of research material. I can't
remember at all. I've tried to get as best I
can out to everybody, So please go and do your stuff,
hopeing out make material mistakes. But there were a few.
One you asked me last time about Newt Lee if
he was let go right away. Just make a little correction,
he was actually held the entire through the entire trial.
Now he was and I'm going to do a quick
timeline here, but he he was roughed up a bit
and then they decided he wasn't going to be the
guy that they are going after, and he but they
kept him basically locked up for his own protection.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Another one was the ADL. I did find out that
they said that the ADL technically had been started in
Chicago prior to the murder. But the murder and the
ADL really born out of the bang breath in Atlanta
with the big seminal, you know, the ignition for all that.
Other than that, that's that's pretty what we.
Speaker 1: Had to start.
Speaker 2: I will say, let me let me start here and
then we'll go into the trial. And by the way,
interrupt me at any point, p As, you will just
go there were three I want to talk about the
three frame ups that really happened, and then that will
help us kind of walk our way through this. So
you had at one point he tries to frame Leo
Frank tries to frame Newt Lee he's the night watchman.
And how he did that was there's two notes that
they found that implicated a tall, slender black man night
which they said, but we can show those notes as well.
Remember that we said the time card that he had
one point he said it was perfectly fine, and then
later on he produced a time card that said that
he had missed times. It gives so he's still pushing
this guy the bloody shirt. His men somehow had obviously
planted a bloody shirt that the police weren't buying it.
They allowed him to interrogate Newt by himself at one point,
and then in the trial they were even and this
is fine. You know, when you're putting your defense on
for your client, you're going to try to strike a
reasonable doubt anywhere you can. And they were still trying
to even point the finger at new Lee at that time.
So that's that's the first guy. The second guy is
James Gant. He was the one that was came to
the factory and at six o'clock saw Newt Lee out
there with Leo Frank. Was Leo kind of got shocked
about this whole situation. Uh he he being Leo Frank
had mentioned to the his Pinkerton's, his private detectives, that
James Gant was friendly with Mary Fagan. That's two things.
One is, hey, go and investigate him. But the other
thing is he had been telling the police this whole
time he didn't he'd never met Mary Fagan. He didn't
even know her. As a matter of fact, I didn't
even know what her name is. So now that he
says that, that's like an implication of guilt, but it
also is trying to put the the onus on James Gant.
So there was there was that part and then we
come to James Connolly. Here is the big thing with
James Connolly. He's the guy that found that or helped
Leo Frank kind of disposed of the body.
Speaker 1: He was.
Speaker 2: And once again we've put this into great perspective, which
is how the South was at that time. You do not,
as a black man, have a murdered white girl in
a factory that you work at and suddenly think that
you're just gonna not be thought of as a possible
the possible guilty party. He finds out, and this comes
out when you go through the trial. There's this lady,
miss White. She shows up at the factory. She sees
a Negro sitting there. She's there at around eleven thirty.
She comes back a little later, she's there at twelve thirty.
Leo Frank makes her leave at one o'clock around twelve.
I'm sorry, but she had seen Connolly there. She tells
James Gant, I mean, she tells Leo Frank and the
Pinkertons that she saw this negro there. Now, why would
you not pin the murder on Connolly? Immediately? He's a
black man, he's seen around there. No one likes him
him and he didn't get pinned. Matter of fact, that
never got relayed to the police until later. She then says, oh, yeah,
I told the Pinkerton's, the private detectives, but I didn't
and then I told the police. So the police found
out later. But Leo Frank had heard this and he
didn't push that. The only reason he's not putting there's
multiple chances he has to pin the tail on the
donkey of Jim Conley, but he doesn't do it. And
you know why, Pete is because he had been implicated
him already and they had their deal going that he
can't say Jim Connolly, oh yeah, he's the negro that
did this. Now go check him out, because if you're
going to go do that, Jim Conley is going to say, well,
I wrote these notes, I helped him take care of
the body. So for me, that's a fascinating thing. Now
let me do this real quick. It's a bit of
a timeline. We'll jump rope front before we go to
the trial. So the twenty sixth, Mary Fagan is murdered,
the twenty seventh, new Lee is arrested under suspicion of murder.
The twenty eighth, so we're getting a Tuesday Leo, Frank
is questioned. He then hires the Pinkerton Detective Agency on
the thirtieth, So it's twenty six. Now at the thirtieth
suspicions of Frank are finally raised by Mary's friends. They're saying, hey,
he was kind of a creepy guy. And also new
Lee tells investigators that Frank acted nervous that day. May one,
Jim Conley, an African American sweeper at the factory, is
arrested after being found in the basement trying to rinse
out a blood stained shirt. Now this is important, this
is May one. He's rinsing out a blood stained shirt.
It turned out to be rust and when when to
find him down there? Why is he doing this? Well,
because everyone in the factory had said you've got to
go and we're going to start to interview, So he
was trying to clean a shirt. If he had done
this to this girl, he would have been out of
the state already, not a doubt in my mind, he
would have hit the road. You think a black man's
going to get a fair trial, He's not even going
to get a trial. He's just going to get lynched.
And we're done and over. So at that point you
even think, Okay, he's maybe arrested, maybe Leo Frank is
going to start throwing some shade his way or guilty
is no, it didn't happen. May, Newt Lee and Leo
are ordered to the Corner's Jury to be held under
the charge of murder. So the coroner does an investigation.
He says, yes, we should push it Corner's inquest. Then
they go to the grand jury. Now there's rumors about
some notes being spread around. That's when in May and
middle part of May, that's when Lee le sorry Jim
Conley starts to go, ooh, maybe this is going to
go south. I don't want to be the guy. He
starts hearing rumors too about a black guy being implicated.
He doesn't really know it's new Lee, and he thinks
maybe it's him, so he starts to come up there.
Now maybe twenty one, Hugh Dorsey announces that he's going
to do indictments from the grand jury against both Newt
Lee and Leo Frank, and then they'll concentrate on Frank.
And then the grand jury hands down an indictment on
May twenty third against Leo Frank, but not against Newton Lee.
And then Conley finally comes clean and then we'll kind
of get into the trial there. So that's any questions
about any of that yet?
Speaker 1: No, No, sounds good, all right, keep going.
Speaker 2: Okay, so now we got the trial started. So what's
so interesting about the trial? And we talked about it
a little bit. I mean, look what she raped. I
don't know, there's definitely something that happened to her sexually.
By the way. I didn't mention this last time because
and I had to. I don't like listen to the podcast.
I'm on this pete, but I had to go back
and listen to it and to figure see what I
was missing here. One aspect is, Okay, Leo Frank sees,
how's the girl Mary. He's trying to diddle her, she's
resisting him. He hits her, she falls, and she hits
her head. Now that's not what killed her, by the way,
So you think of that and you're like, okay, you
know it's not first degree murder. No, no, no. He
then goes and he's like, okay, my life is trash here.
I can't have this girl. You know, why did she
get hit? I was trying to, you know, get in
her pants. I smacked her. That can't happen. So he
strangles her to death. That to me is that that's
what pushes it over the line. I think that's what
everybody really comes to like a rally around. Okay, so
he was sexually a molestner. He hit her, that's fine,
you have a choice not to go further with this
at this point, and he takes a rope and basically
garrots her to the point where when they're they're doing
the autopsy and describing this for court, the rope was
still stuck in her in her neck as they went through,
So it was it was pretty intense. Okay, so few
interesting aspects of how this was going to be run.
So they have two attorneys on one side, two on
the other for for the defense and the and and
a bunch of people are chipping in. You've got the
first day. The way that they do there in Georgia
at the time was they bring everybody in and they
swear all their witnesses in at the same time. So
the prosecution's like, no problem, we'll swear them in, and
the defense is like, nope, we want to do this
at a later date they object to it, the judge
overrules them. Now, the reason for doing this was they
wanted to play this game and it was great for
the for the prosecution to see the Suddenly, you know,
there's like forty thirty five, forty witnesses that the prosecution
is going to call, and the defense has around one
hundred plus, and they are character witnesses. There are people
that are going to be you know, coming in from
out of state. There are people of his Jewish society.
There girls from the factory, a bunch of girls from
the factory. So suddenly the prosecution is like, okay, and
we talked about this last time, which is character and
how you get to present that to the judge. And
I thought I'd kind of go here of what see
if we can find what I've written out here for
the judge what he had done. Now, this is if
you look at the all the pleadings in the trial transcript,
the judge at the very end he then lays out
what the call of basically, what did you're being charged
with and how he breaks it down and what you're
supposed to do to think about this. So he says
it's it's a probable cause. Of course we need that. Uh,
there's there's multiple standards, and he talks about the sorry,
the clear and convincing evidence that we have to beyond
a reasonable doubt and uponderance of the evidence. Those are
kind of your different standards. And obviously we're doing a
beyond a reasonable doubt that you have here. It's murder.
It's unlawful killing of a person in the peace of
a state by a person sound and memory and discretion
with malice of forethought after express or implied. And then
he kind of breaks down what malice is, what the
presumptions are in the different types of evidence, different types
of evidence we're looking out here, direct and indirect. Okay,
circumstantial evidence. In a sense, circumstantial evidence is not a problem.
People always like, oh, you know, this is just circumstantial evidence. Yeah,
but sometimes that's all you really have to get somebody,
And it doesn't mean that those circumstances that all build
up are still not great. Now, this wasn't a direct
evidence case necessarily, but there was a lot of circumstantial
evidence that put Leo frank right in the exact position character. Okay,
so this is what the judge says, about character he goes.
Good character by the defense it's introduced by a defendant
is always relevant and at the issue, and should be
considered by the jury along with all the other evidence
introduced as the facts of the case. However, if guilt
is established notwithstanding the good character, then the duty is
on the jury to convict. But good characters should be
taken into account. If that good character creates a reasonable doubt,
then they should acquit. However, the general rebuttal of those
that knew him prior to the death of Mary Fagin,
the state is then allowed to attack it by showing
his general reputation is not good by showing those witnesses
who testified to his your character were untruly reporting. Therefore,
the state can ask if those testifying, if they've heard
certain acts of misconduct, those as evidence. This is not
evidence to misconduct unless they testify to it. So, in
other words, like we said, once you bring character into it,
you can then bring bad character. And so we start
out and we can walk through kind of the first
week of the trial. The second week, I mean it's
four weeks. I'm not gonna We're gonna sit here and
walk through four weeks of testimony. So I'll kind of
break it down to begin with, which is you have
they bring in the mom The prosecution does a really
good thing in the first week of just kind of
laying out everything the timeline. New lead testifies. Once again,
remember they had several colored men, as they dictated on
the transcript, Newly Jim Connolly, and they had not really
ever had the right to testify before in Georgia. I mean,
the fourteenth Amendment was put in place specifically for that
eighteen sixty six to try to institute the fact that
in all the states they would say that people can
actually testify in court have their due process. So we
have Jim Connelly and Newton comes in testifies, does a
great job, and once again the defense is it's it's
such a class warfare that they put on this pete,
which is you've got the dirty negro here, and then
you've got this wonderful Leo Frank and his you know,
good character of which and just look at the way
that the black man is done up. Matter of fact,
they make a case that the defense at one point
when Jim Connolly is there about the fact that he's
got clean shirt on, that he's got his hair fixed
and you know he showered, and that you're typically a
dirty negro, as they even say in court. And it's
fascinating that, you know, when they come out of this
that you try to put this. The adl then says, oh,
it's so antisemitic. Yet your races commentary the whole time
is just outlandish. Okay, So race doesn't really come into
this whole thing for the most part. Jump ahead Leo
Frank's mom. There were two incidences that kind of come out.
One is she's in the gallery and she yells at
the prosecutor Hugh Dorsey, you dirty Christian dog or gentile
dog at one point and.
Speaker 1: That yeah, very good, there it is.
Speaker 2: But this is what's great, Pete is the next day
there wasn't a pilgrim, there wasn't a mob outside, there
wasn't anything like that. She just came back into court
and all was good. All right, you want to keep
going hamming away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's just wild that it seems like there's
a lot there's a lot of tolerance going on, yeah,
on all sides. And even saying that it's you turn
it into a class war. That's uh, that's interesting because yeah,
no one would ever think that somebody of high class
would come on to a young girl and possibly hurt her.
I mean, there's no evidence of that anywhere. And like
just before that, right, no, not at all.
Speaker 2: But this is this is used over and over, I
mean jumped forward in a few years. Another issue I
get realed deep into is Wittaker Chambers, alger Hiss the
Pumpkin papers, and was alger Hits a communist spy and
Wittaker Chambers they you know, hid horrible teeth and that
was the thing they were actually talking about in front
of Huac was look at his teeth. He's a dishoveled man.
Why would I this is literally what his ant. Why
would I ever associate with him? Therefore, I couldn't have
been handing him. You know, paper's secret spices up anyway,
That's that's a that's a different thing there.
Speaker 1: So second Mama Frank comes back into the courtroom. No
one's no one's screaming at her, no one's trying to
kill her, and everything goes on. So what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as a matter of fact, in the closing,
Hugh Dorsey, the prosecuted solicitor there he actually makes a
call to the sense of what we talked about here
of the Jews in the South being part of community,
and then he equates his religion to their religion and
you know, truest to basically, he's popping him up. He's
not staying anything ornery or bad, and that never comes
into it at all. There's there's no race. Matter of fact,
the only race that really gets brought up is once
again by his mom, and then the fact that he's
bringing members of his Bena Breath society in there to
testify on his good character. Okay, the first part that
you have real a big issue with with the prosecution
is Jim Common. He comes in there week two. The
first week it had been pretty good setting all these
things up, and now he's testifying. He does multiple days,
I think sixteen hours. They say of testimony. This is
a you know, a dumbni g as. They say, he's
you can't be believed. Yet the best you know, cross
examiners here in the state and then probably in the
nation at the time couldn't crack him. They couldn't get
him to do anything other than just tell his story.
And he was really pretty good at and somewhat entertaining.
So that's perfectly fine. Now the problem is that you've
got to be able to for him describing is from
the legal sense here some of these situations, you know,
seeing Leo Frank in a compromising situation doing these things.
So there's objections at this point to him being able
to even testify to this. And you'll talk about it
when it goes to the appeals, which are can you
talk about someone's character because they're saying, hey, you can't
talk about his character unless we're bringing up and you're
the you're going first as the prosecution. You know you
can't even do this. But there's a pattern and a
scheme that you can describe if someone is doing something
like a past act, maybe another criminal activity. Once again,
you can't bring their other crimes into it to say
that since they did this criminal act, that therefore they
would do this criminal this other one. But you can
say that it's done in a scheme, in in a
way and a plan that continually happens that now you
can use it for this case to show that it's
likely that this happened as well. And that's exactly how
over the objections that they got a lot of this
testimony and from Jen Conley, now just from my own,
you know, Pete, there's so much here, and I'm trying
to go back and I've even looked at some of
the tried to look at back some of the law
that they had at the time, and it's tough. Hearsay.
Heresay is a big one. You know that that's been
a rule that's been through common law for since, you know,
the fifteen hundreds. It looked like there was a lot
of hearsay being thrown around here, and I don't know
if they were objecting to it or not. Some of
the transcripts when you read it, it doesn't I haven't
found actually where it shows all sides of the conversation.
So the massive document that they did for their appeal,
all sides said it was good, and then everyone's used
that since then. It's just the testimony. It doesn't show
what the what the cross examiner is saying that the attorneys.
It just says all the answers. So, but some of
that stuff has been filtered into the record so you
can see it. But the point is there's a lot
of hearsay being done. Okay, week one, Week two, Conley's
done the defense rests, and now the prosecution rest. The
defense starts bringing in all their stuff, and they start
off with just what I consider trivial stuff. They're they're
trying to break the timeline, which is very important.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Leo, like I said, Leo Frank put himself in a
box by saying I never left this office. Someone saw
you came in there and you weren't there. This girl
dies and we were able to pinot at the right time.
You know, it happens right next to your office, you know,
yet you don't hear anything. Mary Fagan, I had a
dollar twenty on her. Oh Jim Connolly probably killed it
because he wanted he wanted a dollar twenty. You know.
Leo Frank got thousands of dollars in his office at
you know, these things don't add up. So they tried
to come in with you know, like the trolley times,
you know, countering with different stuff. And you had asked
last time about was Jim Connolly ever offered to change
his story. No, he wasn't because that would have been
difficult because I mean they might they tried to kill him. Actually,
they tried to poison him in jail. That's actually came out,
but they didn't try to actually pay him off because
they figured, once again, in the class situation, you've got
a black man, he's not going to be believed. You know,
he probably shouldn't even testify. That's that's their thinking of
the time. But a lot of other people did and
it reminded did take money and did try to change,
you know, have stories that were not correct. It reminded
me of the was it Paul mcgallar or one of
those guys talked about, you know, you drag a twenty
dollars bill through the trailer park, you can get any
kind of story you want, talking about the Clinton's and
stuff like that. It's kind of what happened here, all
this money going on that you started having the defense
people trying to counter some of the few words things
here and there. But the big thing was when they
started to bring girls into talk about how great, how
great Leo was at the factory. Suddenly that's when the
dam breaks and then all hell breaks loose. So the
rebuttal that comes from the state, they're able to start
getting rebuttal witnesses and then they start to unload this
you know, girl saying, oh yeah, he's coming into our
dressing room. Oh yeah, he touched me. They're also able
to bring in this. There was this another guy, Dabbs Dalton.
I'm sorry, and he's the one that Jim Connolly said that,
Oh I used to come here and bring girls in
with him, and Leo would let him hang around. So
I guy comes and testifies and yeah I did that.
The girl that he was there with, one of him
was like, yeah, that happened. Another one's like no, now
she's married, she's not gonna she's gonna purgy herself. She's
gonna protect her relationship and walk all the way through this.
There's a lot of objections to these kind of you know,
witness testimony, but in the end they're done and over
in two weeks. Now there's if you read the closing arguments,
they had both had two attorneys, so it's actually pretty fascinating.
These guys were well done. But before they do that,
there's one other thing that happens, which is a monster.
It seems like a huge mistake to me. Now the South,
you know honor society that you have, which would be okay,
Leo Frank should go up there, testify, cross examination, show
he's a man say he didn't do it, and you know,
as his man in the South, will either believe him
or we don't. But that's how you do it. Well,
you had three options at the time. One just like now,
don't testify, take the fifth U. Two testify and get
cross examined. But they had a nice little thing where
he can make a statement unsworn and not have the
option to be cross examined. So Leo Frank, Yeah, it
should look crazy. So Leo Frank decides he's going to
do this. He's been preparing for this, so he gets
up there and almost to all accounts, you have pro Frank,
you have anti Frank. Everybody says it was a rambling,
my numbing experience. He spent hours talking about and showing
how he goes through because he did all accounting for
the for the NPC, showing how he did his accounting
that day, walked everyone through the math basically to indicate
if I'm going to have done this, I didn't have
enough time I had to I was too busy doing
this this calculations. Anyway, I don't know what the point
because it bored everyone to death. But then he says
on one aspect, which is he wants to start talking
about this, and he says, I may have unconsciously used
the restroom that day around between the twelve twelve thirty.
That to me, I mean, you know there's people there's
like three or four instances where he basically claims it
or admitted to doing it. I should go back just
one of those, which is his parent, his in laws.
He lived at this laws, the Sea Leagues, and they
had some servants the night of the murder. One of
the servants there, she told her husband that she was
in the room. Leo Frank comes in, he's drunk. It's
later in the evening, and he said, I killed a girl,
give me my gun, I'm gonna kill myself, and the
sousand to his wife, I didn't do it. So this
lady or her husband's like, oh shit, this guy's a creep.
Uh tells the cops. They come and get her. She
goes in there. She has counsel with her the whole time,
and she gives an AFFI David that he had said that.
Now the prosecution can't introduce this affidated. They didn't even
bring her up to testify because she had then tried
to recant this. So she goes in the stand and
she's talking about some other things, and so then it
was just dumb to bring her in, I think from
the defense. But the prosecution then says to uh, you know,
to basically push back against what she's just claimed. They
show the affid David, and now they have testimony all
around that. So that's one aspect that actually on the
appeals they bring up. So he's admitted to someone there
he there was another admittance that oh that they think
it was newly when he was in the interrogating him
when he said we're both going to burn for this,
and then obviously in court saying I may have gone
down to the bathroom myself. So the jury steps out,
they take two hours, they come back in. Just rewind
a bit on the grand jury. There were five Jews,
by the way, on the grand jury that indicted him,
two of them helping to be members of his benig breath.
I don't think there were any Jews on this jury,
but they said he was guilty within two hours. There's
one aspect that's important here, which is.
Speaker 1: You said that there were five Jews, five Jews on
the jury that indict grand jury, grand jury that indicted him,
but there were You don't think there were any Jews.
There's no evidence of Jews being on the jury that
convicted them.
Speaker 2: I have not heard any positive statements that there were. Yeah,
there were, there were, yeah. So so nothing better two
hours come out. Now there's a there was a due
process is basically, I need to have my chance to
be served. Jurisdiction has to have over me. I get
a chance to have my day in court and all
the little procedural aspects that go along with that. And
one of the things that they said here in criminal
courts in Georgia is that he had the right to
be present at every aspect of his trial. Now, the
judge was concerned that whatever the outcome of the trial,
that there may be a little bit of a riteous activity.
Although there had never been any outbreaks in the court,
there really had been nothing outside the court. I think
I told you I saw this movie that was done
in the eighties, and I'm trying to remember some of
the actors in there, but there's a bunch of famous actors.
Go back and watch it. It's it's pro Frank scenario.
And what they do in there, which is I can't
find any there in the history that historically to prove
that this is the case. During the trial, a bunch
of Christians are standing right outside the window and they're
singing like some Christian hymn, and that's supposed to be
showing that, you know, hey, we're Christians. We are going
to get you, you dirty jew. That never happened, that's
nothing like that happened. But the judge is concerned that
if he's, if Leo Frank's out there when the jury's read,
something might happen. So Leo Rosser his attorney, the defense attorney,
and with Hugh Dorsey, the prosecutor, they come to an
agreement that they will waive his right to be there. Now,
Dorsey's explicit like, you can't use this against us. You're
gonna waive this. You can't use this against this, Like, yeah, perfectly, fine.
Jury comes out says guilty. They pull the jury. Every
single one of you tell us about it. They all
say guilty, guilty, guilty, and we're done and over and
then he's he's sentenced to death in a few days
or a few weeks. But we can any questions about
the trial.
Speaker 1: That's that's how we have Well, no that sounds good.
Let's there's numerous appeals, So I guess is that where
we're going to go now, get into the appeals? Yeah,
if you want to, Yeah, yeah, I think I think
that's important because a lot of people are like, oh,
you know, it's of course a Georgia jury is gonna
gonna convict this dirty jew, you know, of the murder.
But no, there was plenty of appeals.
Speaker 2: So thirteen I believe all in the highlights. Yeah. So
uh And by the way, the best thing about this
that you know, it's the time era that we're in
that all this has been documented, so we all we
have all this information, which is a great thing for
everyone to go through, but it's it's not so good
for the A d L. They really want to go
through this, and they want to go through the facts
of all this. And by the way, if you go
back and read at the time, even pro Frank you know,
articles and everything, there's things that are just vastly missing,
which is anti Semitism. It's just not at all in
the picture at the time. And I think that's to
me that one of the frustrating things you get from this,
which is, hey, Tyler, you know someone posted on Twitter,
all big balls to do this episode, and I don't
know about that. I mean, we're just breaking down the
case and you're gonna yelled at for for what you
come out with because you're part your your your little
team isn't seen in a good light. That's that's no
way to go through it anyway. That's my that's my opinion.
Speaker 1: And if it's someone on my team murders a girl,
murders a thirteen year old girl, I'm not standing up
for them. No, no, no, yeah, they're not on They're
not on my team anymore.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so let's walk I'll walk through quickly just
kind of the dates of all the different motions that happened,
just so we could kind of see them, and then
we'll break through just some some highlights of the main
issues that happened. So he's sentenced to death on the
twenty sixth of August. He immediately files a new motion
for a new trial, and it goes through Judge Roan.
So it's got to look and we'll talk about this
real quick, which is when you file an appeal. It's
not like I didn't like that ruling, so I need
to I want someone else to you tell them that
they were wrong. No, you have to say for reasons
of objections that were overruled or the misip application of
the law, or that you was just so egregious in
the outcome that it did not warrant the verdict that
was there. So it's pretty specific about what you have
to do. He files a motion, immediately goes to Judge Roan,
who had been the judge in the superior court that
had just done the trial. He denies it, and then
they start pushing nothing up there. I just thought it
was interesting, so let me see. Yeah, this is one
in this state. A defendant charge with the crime and
tried by a jury is given the right by motion
for a new trial, to have it reviewed, a verdict
and judgment rent against him, and to have it set
aside if set aside for an illegality or irregularity amounting
to harmful air in the trial, including such grounds as
the reception of a verdict in his absence. But where
such motion is made, it should include all proper grounds
which were at the time known to defend it or
his council, or which by reasonable dillons could have been discovered.
And that is really important, and that kind of becomes
the lynchpin, which is he doesn't bring up in his
first and it's one hundred and three different grounds for
dismissal of a new trial that he wants. He does
it rit on the air and just keeps going through
with these, but he doesn't on this first attempt bring
up the fact that he was not in the courtroom. Okay,
now his attorneys had said we're waiving it, but now
it's different attorneys that are doing working all the appeals
for him, and they don't bring that up in his
first motion. It comes back to somewhat bite him. So
he gets those denied, and he keeps going through. He
finds another one, and you've got the multiple courts here,
so the thirteen isn't quite thirteen. It's like goes to
the first one and then he appeals to the next
one or amends it. He then comes back the motion
for a new trials denied. So then he does what's
called the writ of errors. Here's all these errors that
we're supposed to have been corrected, and that weren't all
these objections was he able to use the character? Well,
they overruled him on all those can he you know
the plan and the scheme. Can you do that? These
other issues of you've had these two doctors that had
an outside issue with each other? Was that a problem?
You know nothing, and it has to be relevant, it
has to be material, So they can be minor errors.
Maybe that shouldn't happen, but is that really an error
that's going to cause this whole trial to be upended?
And it continually gets denied, denied. Then he starts doing
and this is all through nineteen fourteen, nineteen fourteen, back
in November. He then goes up and tries to puts
this rid of air to the Supreme Court of the
United States through the district court. They deny him. Then
he comes back and his last ditch effort is for
habeas corpus. So this is he filed against the jailer.
Magnum was his name, and you file it for like, look,
I'm illegally imprisoned for something. You don't even have jurisdiction
to do this. It should be letting me loose, letting
me free, based on the fact that he due process
Fourteenth Amendment. Now, and it was oh mob, mob rule.
The mob was so enveloped that you know, singing Christian
songs outside my window that I had no choice, but
they I didn't get due process. So Supreme Court of
Georgia turns him down, and that one goes finally gets accepted.
It goes up to the Supreme Court, and to me,
that one's somewhat fascinating one. They reject him on the
lowersh courts for saying, if you didn't bring this issue
up the first time, you've lost it. You've waived it.
As a matter of fact, it says here that you're
supposed to bring all known issues. You lost your chance
for doing a new trial. You missed it there. You
should have brought this fact up that you were not
in the courtroom at the first end time. Now with
that said, the fourteenth Amendment, as we talk about it's
it's at the time. Sub I don't know how well
you are on the fourteenth. There are listeners of it.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good.
Speaker 2: Fourteenth Yeah, okay, So you know fourteenth Amendment, which the
NI Nation of involn does take into account, which is
what was the purpose of this in the first place.
It was really to help black men be able to
have the right to vote. That was one of them,
and now you're trying to use it against him, basically,
for this guy that's trying to string up a black man.
You know, Nation of in Islam. Book didn't like that.
I don't know if that's really great correlation. But what
you had here, all the cases at this time, there
wasn't subt to the due process. It was just procedural
due process, if they could even be applied at all.
And they take it up the Supreme Court and they say,
with this in mind, is this mob so unruly that
we couldn't have given you due process? The interesting part
about that one, Pete, is that there's this guy William Burns,
and I think maybe you've heard about him. He was
a private investigator that hundreds of thousands of dollars from
a lot of lobbyists and people in the North to
go through and find the real killer. Now, what he
ended up doing was he did drag the dollar bill
through the trailer park. He got a bunch of people
to assign affidavits, fake affidavits. I mean, there was a
bunch of lives he got. He just got obliterated himself
in the South because Dorsey, the solicitor said, we're not
going to have this, So they went after a lot
of you know, he's like, here's a here's an affidavit
saying that this guy on the jury was making comments,
you know about kill the Jews. Well, anyway, a lot
of this stuff was filed in the rit of air.
Now the Supreme Court actually mentions that in their order,
which and which is It's interesting you have a lot
of you know, affidavits pointing the finger elsewhere, but you
didn't include him with your Supreme Court brief. So they decided, Okay,
this stuff is such bullshit, I can't actually include it
in there. Anyway. There were two dissenters on the Supreme
Court the dude knock him down. They say that the
mob wasn't to the point. There was a problem. As
far as due process goes, it's procedural, which is, we're
only as the Fed's here with the fourteenth Amendment, we're
enforcing due process as what the state would be privileges
and immuony metis of the state, not what we think
due process is from the Fed. So the Fifth Amendment,
So your due process, whatever it was there, you had
a waiver. You're good, We're fine. We're not going to
say that it's any issue, we're not going to overrule you.
Interesting Oliver Wendell Holmes, famous Supreme Court justice who made
that stupid line fire in a Kkaudit theater. He did dissent.
He didn't talk anything about the fourteenth Amendment. He just said, look,
the crowd seemed to be unruly and there you should
have had a better chance at this. The great thing, though, Pete,
all the filings, a lot of it's not like any
of these rulings were short sighted. They took a lot
of time. There's a lot of writing in there, and
I think they I think personally, going through all the stuff,
that they came out with the right ruling. The great
thing about this is that you know, this this four
day or four week trial, longest one that they had had,
all this pleadings, all these appeals that they have, they
couldn't find any air strong enough to give them a
new trial, even the ones that did dissent, because they
weren't all you know, seven. I think there was a
seven to two on the Supreme Court, the Georgia Supreme Court.
Not everyone was unanimous on all of those. Even the
descents though they're always like, eh, maybe maybe he could
give this to him. But they weren't. They weren't definitive
forthright in their taking. So the Supreme Court says overrules him,
and he's sentenced to death, and then we have a
Governor Slayton issue going on.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we want to if we want to
sort of cut it there to save for part three,
or do you think we can get into anything else
and be coherent in part three?
Speaker 2: We we could cut it if you want. Let me
ask you that, do you have any questions about these things?
Speaker 1: I mean, admittedly, my what I know of court law
is I used to read a lot of decisions, but
mostly from like Supreme Court decisions. I was obsessed with
Ashwander for a long time because I thought that that
was like the a lot of the decisions around the
New Deal, because I thought that was like the turn
of everything. That's when the whole country just basically went
up and smoked. But yeah, it doesn't seem to me, like,
I mean, well, in the trial itself, is it just
that they get they love and they were like, okay,
he is the only one who had opportunity to do it,
And combined with the fact that Conley I guess on
the stand is basically telling him about the money, telling
him about is that? What does it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think yeah, I think it's the full breadth
of everything, this Stull story, which is Conley. They find
him to believable, although it's over and over and over.
They they even had the one point they grouped about
ten witnesses and they just said they all testified that
Jim Conley as a as a Negro couldn't be believed
under oath. So they really went hard at at that.
But yes, he testified. I think he was believable. The
fact that Leo Frank's story had changed, and then the
fact that they were able to bring out in the
trial a lot of these little things where he was trying.
It was obvious he was trying to aim either Newt
Lee or this James Gant, and he never took the
opportunity to do the same to Jim Connolly. I think
that was so powerful that there was this miss White
who saw him in the in the factory, that he's
there a week later, still hanging around, you know, talking.
It blows everyone's mind that this black man would not
just take off if he had he had actually done that,
So with that and the fact that because I don't
think I think the facts themselves dealt with this enough.
Girls came up and said, Yeah, he was creepy, he
was trying to touch me, he was looking through the
peep hole. Uh, he had been doing these exact things
that Leo fran Jim Colmley says he was going to
do U and then just there's a gruesome murder possible
rape going involved there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think the Supreme Court, like Thomas says,
that Oliver Weengleholmes gets gets a bad rap on a
lot of things. Do you think that that was just
his not realizing that the you that really anti Semitism
had anything to do with this trial. That was Holmes
just like a knee jerk reaction or was it just
his contrarian nature?
Speaker 2: Very well may have been. Look as far as Oliver
Wendell Holmes, Yeah, I brought up the fire in the
crowded theater, which is bad, but he's he's not bad
on all of his decisions. So you know, it's a
kind of a mixed bag. And and by the way,
I think a lot of judicial judicial uh uh temperament
and when you look back on it has to deal
with kind of where you are now. And you know,
as an example, you know, I look back through all
the different story as a matter of fact, Judge Justice story,
I think he's a piece of shit, you know, kind
of the things. It depends on where your personal view
is and how you see these people. Uh. I even
him though, he was he was reserved on a lot
of this stuff, and he just said, look, it seems
to be the mob trip the problem though, And this
is what's amazing, is you know, I think Brandeis was
the first Jewish member of the Supreme Court. He wasn't
coming on there yet. That was still to be coming
on a few years. I think it was nineteen seventeen,
I want to say, so I could be wrong, check
me out on that, but he was. He definitely wasn't
on at this point. The overwhelming feeling of the North
and all the news, you couldn't avoid this case. So
I'm sure the Supreme Court justices had read stuff, and
the New York Times was pumping out what they say.
There was more words written about Jim Conley in the
New York Times than about WDD boys. So you know,
that's extreme for even the New York times at the time,
so you can't help but think that they had been
somewhat influenced because you now had two years from the
time of the actual guilty to the when the Supreme
Court's going in and doing this for all the papers
to really really ramp up the anti Semitic trope that
they were pushing out.
Speaker 1: All right, well, then I guess we'll wrap it up
there and next time we well, I mean obviously the lynching,
but also we can start getting into the press and
just exactly how much the press and how much how
much came from the north, Like you said, all the
words were written, but also talk about the governor who
looks like he went on a world tour.
Speaker 2: After I think he was promised a lot.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and yeah. And one thing that a mistake
that I made and I didn't know until recently, was
that I guess we'll talk about this next, is that
he didn't commute his sentence. He commuted his death sentence.
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, he even had some skepticism as to
what he was committed it to life in prison, which
still means okay, I mean that you know, you might
have the death sentence, but you least have life in prison,
so yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we can also on the next one talk
about what could like, I don't trying to get into
the mind of somebody who's in a lunch mob, is
uh it is. It could be damaging to one soul,
but the what the idea may have been around somebody
who has now a life sentence and is alive and
is there you know, there is still a chance of
a you gotta have a presidential commutation something like that,
so you know, I know that after I guess after
you go to the Supreme Court, you can't you can't
get a pardon a president. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the president could only have even now I mean,
you know, even the way we're mixing things in uh,
the president can only pardon federal crimes, so you know
this is state crime. You know he was screwed in
that sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, Well good, all right. I think last
time you said, if anybody wants to find any find
your work at Tyler, go to your Twitter account at
Tyler Yankee.
Speaker 2: That's correct.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks ball, All right, man, Well until the next time,
can't wait, yep, take care. I want to welcome everyone
back to the Peak and Yona show. To wrap this
up now, Tyler, how are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Pete. Nice to talk to you in
a time of peace.
Speaker 1: Yeah out whoops.
Speaker 2: People will look back this at a few years and say, excuse.
Speaker 1: Me, Yeah, what's what are they talking about? What was
happening when when they recorded this? So basically ended on
the guilty verdict last time and the appeals. He talked
about the appeals and I guess the commutation of the
of the death sentence comes first. But before we do that,
probably getting into the level of I mean, what the
media did and the media blitz. So why don't you
talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me start. I found this quote.
This guy, Leonard Dinnerstein. He was an author. He wrote
a book about Leo frank and I think for his dissertation,
and then he's updated a bunch of times now he's
a scholar. But here here, I just thought this was
I found this last night and I just thought this
was great. So this is how he acknowledges anti Semitism.
He said that in the Anti says anti Semitism in Atlanta.
Quote was evident in the widespread acceptance of negro Jim
Conley's testimony. I mean, if that doesn't say at all,
it's like and then kind of where we're at today
as well, which is you go against our narrative no
matter what it is, you can't actually have a principled disagreement.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And and this is a lesser man, this Negro. Therefore,
since you accepted his testimony, we are and then you're
anti Semitic. That's that's the whole process.
Speaker 1: Well, something that we've definitely seen in the past past
week is that if you if you even mention, you know,
you're like, oh, wow, civilians died. I mean, that's that's
freaking horrible. Well, civilians are going to die on the
other side as well. It's either one hundred percent you
are for Israel and you are you are for the Zionists,
or you are against them. And we saw that with
Tucker when Tucker Carlson was interviewing Vivek and Ben Shapiro
did a completely insane rant commenting on it where he
made zero sense. I mean he he's there was no
facts and logic in there at all. It was emotion
and bloodlust. And yeah, so I think we know this,
we can see this in our current day that if
you are not one hundred percent behind Jews or Zionists,
you are you're anti Semitic. And you know it's yeah,
I think people, I think a lot of people in
the last few days have come to accept the fact
that they're anti Semitic.
Speaker 2: Well, and and then I'd say that because that ties
into kind of where the ad L is now and
a lot of the stuff that we had with the
press at the time. So it's just an important and
by the way, my journey from this, we don't need
to get too personal into it, which is I've used
to bet and be more in the Ben Shapiro camp.
You know, I'm not a Jewish person. I'm religious, you know,
you think that the Christians have to support that kind
of thing. And it was along the lines of I
remember telling someone how I didn't like Jimmy Carter, and
I'm like, he's anti Semitic because he wrote some things
pro Palestine. You know, it's kind of the cudgel that
you use, and it shouldn't be done that way anyway,
we can we can move on from that part. Okay, good, okay,
So let's talk about what we didn't really get into
too much. We haven't we skirted around a bunch? Is
the news and the way that the press really took
this into account. Okay, And with that in mind, did
they come into it right away. No, It took a
little bit of time for some of these the Northern
Jewish families and stuff, to really push into this. It
started with Albert Lasker. Okay, Albert Lasker. Actually it's his
father who did find this out yesterday. He was a
Confederate himself, you know, slave owning family that they had
down there, and I think he was from Texas originally.
So this Albert Lasker is the head of Lord and Thomas.
He's kind of like what they called him, the unchallenged
monarch of American consumer advertising, the founder of modern advertising.
You think of all these things that happened, he was
the man that really pushed this, you know, kind of
a change in nineteen thirteen with some of that. So
he comes into prominence there. His dad said, hey, you
got to take a look at this, and so he
starts to take interest. A lot of the press did
come into it right near the trial. You know, William
randolp Hurst threw someone down there for his newspapers and
there is some reporting, you know, claims on some books
and stuff that the news, the emphasis by the North
changed the trial because they couldn't come out as anti
black as they really wanted to do. You know, we've
shown things here they definitely were, so they said they
kurttailed that some. However, the Nation of Benzob Islam book
really shows how much Laskar himself, you know, a man
mostly of the South, although he lives now in Chicago,
Adolph Ox he was now running the New York Times,
but he was actually a Southern or two. They had strong,
strong feelings about slavery the black man. They weren't any better,
So I don't know that that necessarily played into it,
but it drew some interest. And there still was a
little bit in the North, some of this pretension that
we're going to give blacks at least their due, so
they had to restrain that a little bit. Albert Laskar,
he really pushes this and the key for him so
they come in mostly after the trial. But the key
for him was he had a ton of money. He
put over one hundred and twenty thousand dollars of his
own money in there nineteen thirteen dollars. So I think
the book they translated that to like two point nine
and twenty sixteen, still a lot of money even for
today of his personal money. But the big thing he
had was connections. And then he had poll So think
of the guy that's the advertiser, and you're now running
a newspaper, and how does your newspaper thrive on advertising?
If this guy wants one direction for you to go,
you might be going that way. You might start changing
your attitude or your editorials, the way your news stories
are simply by the fact that you're going to get
better advertising through Albert Lasker. So that was one big
thing he had what was interesting, And I'll get right
to this on him, so he said, didn't give you
this quote. Here in his biography realed that upon his
first personal meeting with Frank Leo Frank, he preserved he
perceived him as quote a pervert and a disgusting individual,
so much that he even hoped that he managed that
if Frank managed to get free, the latter would quickly
perish in some accident. Furthermore, in his private correspondence, he
freely admitted that a large fraction of the massive funding
that he and his numerous and other wealthy Jews from
across the country providing had been spent on perjured testimony,
and there was also strong hints that he explored bribing
various judges. Given these facts, Laskar and Frank's other major
backers were clearly guilty of serious felonies and could have
received lengthy prison terms for their illegal contact. So once
again we talked about the money. That was the big
thing from the trial till the pills was going through
with this Burns investigator trying to change the testimony. Lot okay,
So Albert Lasker. He then brings in Lewis Marshall. Lewis
Marshall was the American Jewish Committee President. He was an attorney.
He was really well connected. Some say he might have
been the most highest praised or thought of prominent. I
guess would be the word Jewish man in the country
at the time. He had backdoor dealings with scope. He
was He knew Woodrow Wilson. He became the lead attorney
for the Leo Frank after the trial and through all
the stuff, so his connections were huge as well. Along
with Laskar, they then recruited al Adolph Ox adaf Ox.
At the time, he was from the South, but he
was now the owner of the New York Times. This
guy he liked. He liked to put down the blacks
as well. But he really got involved in this thing.
And I just wonder what's interesting in here? Once again, well,
we'll say another thing. He had a quote here Lasker
convinced of his innocense. No, at no point was I
convinced of his innocence. He also said, on the death
of Frank, I'm sure that it was a relief to
mister Ox, who Frank lynched? Who have Frank lynched? And
out of the way. I have felt for some time
that he secretly despised Frank. That's what one person said
of Albert Ox after he was done. So these guys
did not like him, they said, And I have some
other quotes we could kind of go through as to
there a whole feeling was They also then brought in
Jacob Shift. Jacob Schiff was a Wall Street financier at
the time. Shocker.
Speaker 1: I know, I know who Jacob Schiff is.
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you know about him?
Speaker 1: He financed the Bolshevik or revolution, Okay, well as in Russia,
I mean to the two and two hundred million dollars.
Do you know how much? Do you know how much
that was in nineteen early nineteen hundreds money.
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine how many billion, trillion, two billion, Okay,
there you go, Yeah, that's how much.
Speaker 1: That's how much. He wanted to get revenge upon the
uh the Russians for the Palist settlement. Wow.
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting. His connection he started in he was
a financier. He was helping this as well. But his
thing actually is he had connections with Georgia and Slayton,
the governor Slayton, and he actually there was a to
help with the fund some cotton industries, and through the
state there he got I think it was one hundred
and thirty nine million dollar loan for the state of Georgia.
This is right at the time of the commutation. Because
remember when Judge Slayton commutes and we'll get the spoiler,
when he commutes Leo Frank's sentence. He then gets is
out of office in like a few weeks, if even
that long. So he then Jacob Schiff tries to through Marshall,
the Attorney, tries to have Slayton because Slayton was an
attorney as well. We'll get to his dealings. Wanted to
have him nominated for Scotus and then actually William Randolp
Hurst had it even written some things and wanted Slayton
to be the VP choice for Woodrow Wilson so and
William Randolp Hurst. We're not even really getting to get
into much of him other than he had a bunch
of connections, a bunch of newspapers, and he was pushing
the same thing once again from advertising. I don't even
know much. I didn't dig into Hurst. He wasn't as
interesting to me on some of these some celebrit Is
that were Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Jane Adams. They all
were pushing for Leo Frank's innocence as we Henry Ford,
that's what That's what I got out of one clip.
So perhaps perhaps perhaps that's true.
Speaker 1: Interesting man, the man who wrote The International Jew.
Speaker 2: Well maybe maybe maybe at some time later he's like,
you know what he he wasn't because when did he
write that? Because it was a later, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: I can't remember? But gone keep going all right.
Speaker 2: Uh one of the best. Look like I said, this
changed some strategy as far as the thing goes. But
one of the best things that comes out of this.
And once again, like I've said, if you are super
are you're interested in this at all or someone's pushing you.
The best sources are the original sources. And one of
the guys with some of the best original sources were
this guy is this guy Thomas E. Watson. He was
a populist at the time he had it. He was
an attorney. I think he was even a congressman. Uh.
He ended up starting his own i would say rag,
but his own newsletter, and he started pushing back on
the trial. What is interesting when they always talk about
anti Semitism, they bring up Tom Watson because he kind
of turned that way. But he was mostly anti black
and very anti Catholic, extremely anti Catholic. So when we
talked earlier about the Cabbage and Mary Fagan, you know,
being a Catholic girl, this is a guy that's like,
you know, actually, I'm going with him. Plus if you
do check out his writings and they're all there, you
can still find him. And at the end, maybe I'll
talk about all some of the sources we have, because
there's some great sources. The way, they put these on audio,
so all his writings are still out there. He did
not start writing about the trial until after it was over.
So the anti semitism, because you know, let's say there
was some anti semitism from nineteen thirteen after the trial
to the appeal. Okay, maybe, but does that matter? Did
that really? It doesn't matter for the appills because the
appills were he couldn't get due process because of the
anti Semitism in the South, So we're just wiping that out.
Tom Watson didn't start his his fervor. In one of
his most famous things, he's called him the pervert Jew.
That's what he's started to call Leal Frank, which is
what Albert Ox thought of him, which is what Albert
I'm sorry adof Ox and Laskar thought of him as well.
So is it of the no, it's by the way,
if you look at his writings, Tom Watson, he's very
he's very good fun to read. I'm not saying I
agree with everything. I'm just saying he's a great writer.
But he wrote in defense of the Jews many times
before the whole trial, so he got and will tie
this in here because Tom Watson is a very strong individual.
The North comes down and even Albert Ox and Lasker's
talked about later on where they overplayed their hand. We
came in, we tried to destroy Georgia in a sense,
and then what happened, and they didn't take this guy seriously.
Tom Watson happened. Tom Watson happened, and he just eviscerates
them point by point, recapping the trial. He knows all
the legals jargon, and he knows all the laws from
down there. He talks about one of them venue they
could have easily because they're like, look, we're in Atlanta.
We didn't get a fair trial. Okay, you know what
you could have done. You could have asked for a
change of venue. You never did that. And he breaks
down how they could have done that and likelihood of
actually winning on that and had your trial somewhere other
than Atlanta. But they were cocky and they thought that
they would get Leo because we have a black man
that's going to testify. So Tom Watson happens. The New
York Times can't even compete with him. He's just he
destroys them. He knows way too much, and he takes
them on the facts so that to me is in
his reasoning why he turns on the Jewish people. By
the way, he had defended them in court. He is
an attorney they advertised in his magazine. None of this
anti Jewish sentiment came about during the trial. Once again,
it's just not evident in any of the writings. So
that just doesn't happen anyway. So that's kind of the
news story around there. As far as the newspaper's influence.
One other thing, I'd say it real quick here. Seven
months before he's killed, the New York Times writes an
article about they expect him to be lynched at some point,
or they're saying that's going to happen, and they call
this group the Night We've heard it's an anonymous source,
the Knights of Mary Fagin, and it comes to one
and by the way, that's one of the best conspiracies.
And we'll get to the end. Anything you wanted to
say about the news stuff.
Speaker 1: Now, let's get into Slayton and what most likely caused
him to commute the death signs.
Speaker 2: Right, So one of the first things I did, by
the way, when I started reading all this, because it's
twenty eight pages, the easiest thing to do to kind
of get a breadth of this is you read Governor
Slayton's commutation report. It breaks down the facts, it says everything.
And I came from that and my first thought was, oh, yeah,
Jim Conley is just a disgusting person. He's not He's
not that great. And then you go through all the
facts of it and you kind of backtrack and you go, Okay,
you know what, he was a product of his times.
I don't think he was all that bad. But Governor
Slayton did commute the sentence, and he conducted like a
four or five day inquiry. He had people testify again.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Dorsey, the prosecutor, was like, look, this is BS. We've
already done this, you know. But Slayton wanted to do this.
He said it was the right thing to do, and
in the end he decided to commute the sentence from
life in prison to I'm sorry, to life in prison
from hanging. And we'll get to his connections. But here's
what he found though still in his commutation, there was
no error of law, there was sufficient evidence to sustain
the verdict. He felt like an imprisonment represented justice also
reserved for convicted murderers. As far as the antisemitic mob,
he said, no such attack was made and none was contemplated.
He said Jews were revered and contributed greatly to the
development of slavery dependent Jim Crow state, I look, you
got it. You got to do this because now you
look at the ADL and there and I'll play we'll
get to that oay. He made his commutation based on
what he considered new evidence, much of which was produced
by the disgraced detective William J. Burns, who we've talked
about ox Lasker all said they perjured people up and
down the state of Georgia trying to get this thing.
So that was his of Connolly, the black guy. He said,
the evidence shows that Conley was as depraved and lettrous
a negro as ever lived in Georgia. There you go,
by the way, I don't know if we finished this,
which is Jim Conley does get convicted for like an
accessory after the fact, spends a year in jail for
his crime, and dies, you know, ripe old age. I
think in the nineteen forties, nineteen sixties something like that
never hit the news wires again for crimes which if
he was this disgusting sexual pervert. By the way, that
movie I saw in the nineteen eighty eight one he is,
he's like gallam in a cell and this black lady
is there and he's he's almost like jerking off because
he's just so they show him as just this lascivious,
over sexed person. It's it's wild.
Speaker 1: It's wild. Yeah, not shocked to me. Who made that?
Speaker 2: Hollywood, right, Bob Lemon, Bob Lennon, Bob Lemon. He was
the old guy, the dirty, grumpy old man.
Speaker 1: Is that his name, Jack Lemon?
Speaker 2: Jack Lemon? Sorry, he played Slayton. And by the way,
there's an old movie in the sixties where Walter Mathel
plays Slayton. So those guys team up to play the
same guy and then later on they're grumpy old men.
Speaker 1: The original Well, weren't they the original couple too?
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yes, so they just had once again they.
Speaker 1: Were yeah, and I think Charles Dutton actually played Charles E.
Speaker 2: Dutton was the yes, the black guy. Yeah, it's it's
it's wild, all right.
Speaker 1: So commutation of the death sentence.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I just remembered something. Albert Ox
and some of the they decide to do run a
portrayal of the crimes at one point. So they have
actors and they do all this stuff. And I always
find this funny because if you've ever seen Birth of
a Nation, they like to do this too, which is,
you can't use a black man to portray a black man.
You use a white person in blackface. And it's, uh,
it looks so creepy from now, but anyway, he did
that as well.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's amazing. So commutes a death sentence
and then some people start moving going, uh, you know,
just making decisions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh Slayton Actually he takes off and they
moved the prison for where Leo Frank is from one
to another. By the way, if you read all the
stuff about the discussion, at this point, Leo Frank is
really loving his notoriety. He's starting to have people come
visit him at at the prison. He talks about how
wonderful his conditions are there. People are sending him money
and he's just he's loving life the way it is. Uh,
they move. He gets slashed in the neck at one
point someone tries to kill him. They save his life,
and then a few days or a week or so later,
a lynch mob breaks into prison. This is like a
team or something breaks into into prison, takes him out
to uh, I think it was in Millageville, and they
take him to Marietta, where Mary Fagan was born, and
they string him up and they holten they lynch him basically.
Speaker 1: So and there is there's actually a picture out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there is.
Speaker 1: We won't we won't be providing that now.
Speaker 2: They put a nice cloth over his face though, so
you can't really tell. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, well, why don't you talk about the fact
that it does eventually? I mean he does get I
mean this is jumping forward. He does get pardoned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we need to finish off Slaton because there
is one connection we didn't talk about there.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can do the Slayton World tour.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you might know a little bit more about
that than me. Actually, what I found was, Okay, he's
governor from nineteen eleven to nineteen fifteen. You know, the
murder happens in nineteen thirteen, so there's what a two
year span that he of elections. He just gets elected
governor right before the murder are around there, and he
had merged because he's an attorney. He had merged law
firms with Luther Rosser, who was the criminal the defense
attorney for Leo Frank. Okay, they had just merged, so
he can't practice law. So he's not doing that. But
let me tell you after after he commutes sentence and
he's done, he goes back and works for the law firm.
Like I said, Jacob Shift tried to get him either
put on Scotus will Rander first tried to put him
on as a vice president. Shifts letters to Slayton indicated
that he would give him this cotton loan at one
hundred Like I said, I think it was one hundred
and thirty nine million dollar loan. But firstly he asked him,
how do you feel about Leo Frank's innocence? And by
the way, this money is he hinted it was conditional
on that. So anyway, there's good connection that Slayton was
perhaps bought off or he thought it was in his
best interest to do this. Plus as you can see
what he thought about Frank. Jim Connolly, you just believe
the quote unquote, I have to do it for you,
Pete white guy. And this one, what do you know
about and by the way, Leo Frank's murdered, and Jim
Conley is actually in California at the time, and he
hears the news.
Speaker 1: What do you know about him from what I heard
that Slayton immediately once that happens, and once the news
of the lynching comes out, he immediately runs to New
York and he runs to the people who you know,
what they assume is the people who paid him to
do this. And there's no chance, no one's going to
run him for Scotus now, no one's going to run
him for vice president now. So they just hand him
a bunch of cash and he goes and he just
basically tours the world for a little.
Speaker 2: While, yeah, which sounds about right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know, I don't know how how
he ended up. I didn't look into that, but you know, basically, yeah,
he committed a crime. He committed a crime quote unquote,
and then he ran and his the people he the
people he did a favor for, paid him handsomely, and
he decided to see the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did come across that as soon as, like
I said, Marshall, uh, the main of the main of
journey for Frank after the fact the real connected guy.
When Jacob Schiff said, hey, what about him for Scotus,
He's like, yeah, he basically he's not a smart guy.
I would I wouldn't put him up there for any reason.
So yeah, there we go.
Speaker 1: So so he all right, go ahead, go So.
Speaker 2: What happens and maybe you want to talk about the
lynching and the conspiracy or do we save that Pete
we tease the folks here?
Speaker 1: Noah, go ahead and do it.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I mentioned this, what's this is great about
the the NI book here about the secret list boxing Jews.
It's it's from a different perspective than perhaps we have,
but it's one that's really interesting because they are they're
coming at it from an agrieved perspective as well, you know,
and talk about all the lynchings that are happening in there.
Slayton only is concerned or these people only get riled
up because one Jewish man gets lynched, Yet Slayton never
commuted the sentences for a bunch of others. By the way,
it was, they at one point went through page after
page of just how the due process for blacks was
at the time. They had transcripts from a court hearing
and it's literally, you know, mister what's his name? You
know you step up? Did you take this lady's purse?
No thirty days? The next day? Did you do it?
No thirty days? And then one guy's like, hey, I
said it didn't. He goes sixty days, and then he
goes what I can't and it's ninety days. Fine, two years,
And that's that's the kind of it was like within
you know, five minutes you're jailing, you know, the fifteen
different black guys. So that's the way this was. Okay.
So the book indicates that there was such disgust for
Leo Frank and he started to have talking, he started
to have interviews. They said, no, you've got to stop this.
Once again. They thought he was this complete pervert. I
didn't like him from the moment I saw him. These
are legit quotes that I never thought he was legally
guilty or innocent, I think, which is a weird phrase
to use to the point where they felt and I
did read that one quote where they felt that him
being dead was actually more of a benefit than not,
because the more he talks, the more interviews. Now you
commuted his sentence, you're not gonna hang him. Fine, we
got that because they actually thought we'd commute it, maybe
we'd get some sort of rather release. But the lynching
is a better deal.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: The New York Times makes this thing about this, these
Knights of Mary Fagan, and if you, by the way,
if you look up the KKK, the second wave of
the KKK, they always say, you know, Simmons started on
the what was the mountain up there, Stone mountain out
there in Georgia and the Knights of Mary Fagan. But
the Knights of Mary Fagan never were what you can tell,
we're actually a group, Like I said, New York Times
mentioned them seven weeks before. There was one other magazine.
It was the Israelite that had mentioned him great name,
but that was actually the brother in law of al
the Adolph Ox. So there's a connection there. This group
then lynches him. They never said that they were any Simmons,
never said I think that's his name, never said that
there was any connection to Knights and Mary Fagan. There
was never a group associated with the Knights and Mary Fagan.
So the Nation of Inslam thing is this could have
been your first all false flag where basically did they
do the murder. Did they try to have this guy lynched,
maybe take him out themselves. Possibly. I think that's a
great conspiracy to come away with. Either way, it was
a benefit for the ADL and everyone else involved actually,
probably on both sides to have this. The interesting part
of the Knights of Mary Fagan is you mentioned the
picture of Leo Frank being hung. Gods are sticking their
head to try to get in the picture. They're not
hiding their faces. They would take pride in this, and
that never happened. And by the way, Simmons also when
they started the KKK at that point wrote proudly of
the Jews or Knights of the Jews. He didn't have
an issue with them. So once again we just want
to emphasize this KKK formation out of Mary Fagan, anti Semitism,
the connection are not there.
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a coach to see how you can start investing your
health for the long term. Thank you. I guess one
of the arguments is, and Emichael Jones talks about this,
is there's no real consciousness for antimism in the South
at the time. But it really seems like because of
everything that happened with this trial, everything surrounding it, the press,
the the commutation, the just everything, that this was really
like the genesis of Hey, these people, these people have
a lot of power. These people seem to stick together
and they want to be above the law. Maybe we uh,
maybe this is a group we need to look at.
Speaker 2: The KKK or the Jewish community.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking the Southerners, the Southerners in general. The
consciousness this helps, this helps to build the consciousness of
you know, the idea that Jews are just in it
for themselves and they'll do anything to protect their own
people and very.
Speaker 2: You know, look you read the Tom Watson stuff. I mean,
he was very put about by the Northern aggression in
words and the way that it all went down very
much could be I mean, but once again, the birth
of a nation comes out. I just want to emphasize this.
The Birth of a Nation comes out in nineteen fifteen,
and that's right out, you know, right around the lynch,
and actually was after it made a killing. It made
a killing in Georgia. I think that I mentioned that
MGM basically was founded off the funds that were created
from that movie. There were Jewish you know, brothers that
had the movie in the South. They said, what is
in seven thousand Jewish people in Georgia at around the
time of the trial, And there was a study done
that it went from four thousand and nineteen ten to
twelve thousand and nineteen thirty seven, So you know, you're
looking at three hundred Jews a year coming into the area.
They weren't slowing themselves down. But the sentiment could very
well have been once again the way that the press
really tried to push this as once again were backwards place,
letting the black guy talk everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, so I know this is this
is a little bit forward. Now let's get to the pardon.
Speaker 2: So to even set up the part in the ADL
forms nineteen thirteen, once again living in this Livingston guy
started it in Chicago, but he was at two hundred
bucks in his office and the real power was down
there in Georgia. So it comes out of the Benet
Breath situation. And why did I just lose my train
of thought?
Speaker 1: You were talking about You said the ad L. We're
talking about the pardon and you you got to start
with the ADL.
Speaker 2: You know, luckily that doesn't happen to me in court,
but if it does, I'll call up Pete. So the
ADL is pushing the part in for quite some time.
The Georgia Border Pardons is like, no, this isn't happening.
We've already had everything, you know, good luck. However, in
the eighties suddenly there comes out, I think it was
eighty three, comes out this guy Alonzo Man. Now Alonzo Man.
If you rememb remember way back from episode one, he
was a witness in the trial. He's a thirteen year
old boy that testifies that he's in the facility, leaves
that day at eleven thirty, said there were some people
there couldn't recognize Mary Fagan if he saw her in
front of him. He'd just started in first of April.
It only worked two saturdays, so he may or may
not have seen Conley. Suddenly in his eighties he has
a recollection that everything's changed and that Jim Connolly he
had actually seen him there carrying Mary Fagan over his
shoulder and ran into the boy and said, Hey, if
you say anything, I'm going to kill you. So what's
this kid do? He goes home, tells his parents and
they're like, let's see how things play out. That black
man seemed really dangerous. So he goes and testifies at
the trial. You know, not much in there, and like
I said, eighty three some years later, now he's got
a change of his story once again. The best part
about Look, there's several books that perpetuate myths over the years.
One of them talks about kill the Jew or will
kill You? That was a phrase that happened. The first
writing that that ever came out in was like nineteen
sixty five. So you go back to all the contemporaneous stuff,
it's never there. He repeats that, Oh there's a guy
when he went to the courthouse had a gun. Now
let's think back here, who are you more afraid of?
Are you really afraid of? Jim Conley, who gets arrested
on May eighth and is incarcerated all throughout the trial,
spends a year in jail after the fact, Are you
really worried he's going to kill you and your family
in the South in Georgia? It doesn't make any sense.
So with this, this this new revelation, you know, the
whole story comes about the Tennessee and writes a big
article about it. Now the ADL's on the path. They
send it back over to the Board of Pardons to
do this, and they have mister Man there with him
to basically show off to the board about how this
guy it's it Now he's I think he's seen honestly,
because when you read the transcript of that, his attorney
is saying, hey, this happened, and he's like, I don't
want I mean he's not there and the attorney's trying
to give the answers. They turn him down. However, they
come back a few years later and the Board of Pardons,
I think it just gets so unundated with the pressure
that they actually they do pardon him. But this is
important because let me see if I could get to
the actual pardon statement here, let's go. I have it
in my book here, So because it's what's important is
everyone if you even watch on the ADL the website,
and they have a little thing about the ADL, the formation,
the one hundred year thing that they had it talks
about now he's been pardoned. But I think this is oh,
here we go. This is what they said, without attempting
to address the question of guilt or innocence, and in
recognition of the state's failure to protect the person of
Leo M. Frank and thereby preserve his opportunity to continued
legal appeal of his conviction, and in recognition of the
state's failure to bring his killers to justice, and as
an effort to heal old wounds, a State Board of
Pardons and Paroles, in compliance with its Constitutional Statutory thirty,
here by grants Leo M. Franket pardon. Now they had
denied it previously because he's not a live person. There's
really nothing to pardon, and I think that's the statute.
So it almost seems like illegally they didn't do the
right thing. But it's important to note there they emphasized
to start it out with, we're not talking about his guilt.
This is simply you took We couldn't protect him, you
took him out of the facility, and you lynched him.
Therefore we're doing a posthumous pardon. That's it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean it's like it's
like the way they parade Biden around. Now, who's in complete,
you know, whose mind is completely gone? They bring this
guy in and yeah, all of a sudden, you know,
it's like, oh, it took him what seventy years to
grow the nuts to to say this. You know, it's like,
now it's okay to say it. You know, it makes
it makes no sense me. You would think you would have,
you know, after the Civil Rights Act. Oh no, I'm protected.
It's just it's just ridiculous. Did we talk about hoaxes?
Speaker 2: Uh, we can talk about that. One is the bite
marks or to kill the Jews, so we'll kill you.
That was kind of the first one to start with
that since I mentioned it. The only way that they
can trace any connection to that is evidently Luther Roster
or the defense attorney at one point got a phone
call preparing for trial and someone you know that said, uh,
killed the Jew or will kill you on the phone,
and he's like, he didn't do anything about it, didn't
really care because who cares.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: So, no one ever said anything about that, and it
never and I don't mean it that way.
Speaker 1: Pete, but that's fine, but it's funny enough.
Speaker 2: No, But I mean, once again, we have to This
is what's crazy. And I think this is the problem
with like even the ad l Uh. They want to
go back in time, uh, with with today's standards to
some extent, but not really because if we did that
back then, I mean, once again, it's a Jewish man
in Atlanta. He's going to be thought of his upper
class compared to anybody else. So is that really anyway?
The point was that was never said. You can't find
it anywhere except for you know, after the fact, when
people in the sixties are starting to write books about that.
Another one was bite marks. I think someone had commented
about was there ever bite marks? This is another crazy
thing where look all the original materials out there the
corner when they testified from the autopsy. There was a
lot they can actually do, especially science in nineteen thirteen
the best that they could muster up, but they didn't
have X ray technology. Pete and people have now said, oh,
you look at the pictures there was actually bite marks
and no, there's no bite marks. It looks like the
pro frank people trying to do something. I don't even
really know where that goes because they take teeth impressions.
Once again, if these are there, you could have done it.
By the way, there was a bloody fingerprint on one
of the back doors, but they never They could have
asked uh Conley to take a fingerprint and match it,
but they didn't. Interesting. Yeah, there's I don't know if
any other folks, folks.
Speaker 1: Folkses, folkses foes. Well, I mean, I guess really the
only the only thing to wrap up with is the
fact that this was all used to empower and create
an organization nowadays that is has international political power, right,
And yeah, I mean it's is it the first of
its kind like that in the United States. I think
I'm trying to think. I mean, it would definitely be
the most powerful. There may have been Jewish organisations before that,
I mean, but a breath, but that's really just a
secret society.
Speaker 2: Well that a j C was kind it was. That's
the Marshall had that it's the American Jewish Yeah, something
like that. Is that what it is? But they were
they were actually specifically tasked with trying to assimilate Rich
German Jews into the US. That was kind of their thing,
and that's that's where he had a lot of his money.
But yeah, I mean, I take it it's kind of
like the the na A c P, the s l
P R, s PLC, a cl U even or the
Rainbow Push correalition.
Speaker 1: These are Do you know what all those have in common?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Do you know who started all of those?
Speaker 2: Leo Frank, I don't know.
Speaker 1: People, people who call themselves a certain background.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it's it is, It's fascinating. This is
this is what I found off the a d l's website,
which is that there was some videos they have and
one of them is this is what they claim that
they're fighting against the one they found this this is
why they were created. And I could play this video,
they might d of try to strike you, but it
says fighting against the one form of prejudice could not
succeed without battling all forms of prejudice. Now that's what
they said it stemmed from in nineteen thirteen. Does that
sound like they were worried about Jim Connolly's rights and
hit the prejudice to him. Absolutely not. So, you know,
I this video is like a minute forty or so.
I don't want to play it, but if I did,
we could just walk through all the false narratives that
have been created because we know all the facts now,
and that's what's amazing about it. They just they say, oh,
and he was pardoned, Well he wasn't, really, I mean
that's these are important little distinctions to know. So, by
the way, did you did you get a chance I
watched this documentary called defamation? Did you have to know?
Speaker 1: You shared it with me? I haven't had a chance
watching it yet.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to find. And I finally found it
and I ripped a copy, so if anybody needs it,
we can probably post it up. And it's a. It's
a Jewish Russian from Israel. He decides to hey, let's
let's find out this whole thing about the ad L
and stuff. It starts out he's talking to his mom
and she's just she kind of rags on Israel and
some other things. He follows a bunch of kids from
Israel that go over to Germany to like, you know,
Holocaust memorial type of stuff, and it's fear porn the
entire time. And I think that's that's what I found
out about. And then he goes to the ADL with
Abe Foxman, and then he goes, I want to do
I want to follow an incident that you have. Okay,
let's find one. And so they're on there. Oh yeah,
this person they had someone found a Nazi flag in
their yard, so like like these are the things they're tracking.
So at some point and then he talked to Norman Finkelstein,
which was interesting as well. He talked to her more
orthodox jew in New York. And the interesting part, especially
the orthodox guy, was more along the lines of this
is Zionism stuff. It's what it does is it actually
perpetuates anti Semitism. And they you go and you see
what's your definition of anti Semitism, and it is so broad, Pete.
It reminded me of the good old days of the
Jesse Jackson, the rain Rainbow Push coalition where someone I
went to University of Colorado. I'm out there, coach McCartney.
He's done, so they hire Rick Neuheisel. He comes in.
He's not Bob Simmons who was supposed to take over
as a black man. So Jesse Jackson comes out there
and he just tells you how horrible you are, and
he tries to basically, I'll be good for you news
wise if you pay me off. And that's kind of
what the whole thing is. So it's a very similar
feel that it has to that.
Speaker 1: Well, the ad L does that too, when yeah, what's
that basketball player Kyrie? I yeah, yeah, when part of
his apology was writing a he had to write a
check to the ADEL. Yeah, I mean, and that's pretty
much what we knew Jesse Jackson was doing. He would
go in and he would basically say, look into a
corporation and be like, you don't have enough black representation here.
Either get black representation or you could write us a check. Yeah,
And that's pretty much what I mean, where did they
learn that from? Where do you learn that from?
Speaker 2: I mean what I found the big connection, Like you
watch that document and you think about the Leo Frank thing,
what came out of it, which was Leo Frank, which
is there is a lot for us to fear. Now.
One of the incidents is that the ADL showed was
this girl that said, oh, it is just a recent
video I saw. She wakes up, her friend sends her
text and they're on the chalkboard in the chemistry lab
was a swastika. She was just in fear. Pete, she
was in fear. Now I've been I'm not a Jew,
but things have happened to me, and I'm sorry, I
just don't. I don't have the fear of every little
thing at high school like that, and most people don't.
But when these kids went and they visited Auschwitz, one
girl is on camera talking to the guy and she's like, oh,
is it this small? This guy was over there and
he started yelling Nazi at me and he goes, I
was there, he didn't, and she goes, yeah, I know,
so okay, that's that's a weird aspect for a teenage
girl to do. But they instill the fear of everything
around the corner is going to be harmful and it's
not healthy. It reminds me, you know, it was interesting
you talked about the Jesse Jackson and kind of the
same idea of the blacks come out of the South
and there is a lot of fear. They're getting lynched
a lot. But at some point, where are we going
from here?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Are we going to allow this to envelop our lives?
And is it a healthy situation. I'm sorry to preach
on on this, but this is kind of what you
see now, and this is what we have of criticism
has to be in. If you criticize in the wrong way,
you're going to be labeled. And the label itself is
the way that they can try to well censor you.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I was. It really seems like they have
their own history and they created I don't know if
you've seeing the Ben Shapiro history of Israel that's going
around where he just basically gives the Israeli side on everything.
You know, no mention, you know, no mention of anything
any kind of No mention of the King David Hotel, bombing,
of Irgun, no mention of Lehigh no mention of the
Lavan affair, no mention of the USS liberty, no mention
of basically anything anything, no mention of He talks about
how they acquired the goal on Heights in the sixty
seven and it's like, you realize that that's like against internet,
against international law. You cannot get you can't gain land
by by war anymore.
Speaker 2: And he what I just said, I don't know, that's
not my my thing. I'm learning more. But Dave Smith
did break that down and I thought it was very good.
And he said one thing that I thought was actually great,
which I've actually had a judge tell my client, which is,
you know, you come here to swear the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth omissions are just
as bad. And that's what Ben failed to do because
you can't have this honest discussion. And by the way,
it's it's so weird to see a guy in Congress
who's a Christian wearing an IDF uniform. You know, I'm
German and i'd be you know, that would not happen,
but you.
Speaker 1: Know, but yeah, it's there. I don't know how, you know,
it's a lot of what you've seen this week is
how they basically want you to believe that Israelis are
just good they never knew anything wrong, you know, No,
there are no settlements, no settlers. Uh, settlers never killed
kids just for fun, which they do kill Palestinian kids
just for fun. They do there. It's not human shield
it's you know, not them throwing stones and hiding. No,
it's they just the Settlers are the most radical of
the of these groups and of of the Israelis. And yeah,
you don't get that, and you know, lies by lies
by omission. If you're just going to tell give your
side of the story, I'm sorry, you've you've lost the
right to be trusted. And as far as i'm I mean,
I've never trusted Ben Shapiro because for somebody who basically
has made his fortune attacking identity politics, there's no bigger
identity politics issue than Zionism. I mean, Zionism is it's
a supremacy religion. And I was talking to a friend
of mine who grew up in a very strict Jewish family.
She got out, she's she's one of the smartest people
I know, she's one of the she's one of the
most anti Zionist people you will ever meet in your life.
And you know, I told her, I said, if if
we could just get if we just break people's minds
from this Zionism, it would be you know, it would
be great. And she said, You're still going to have
to deal with the fact that Judaism, just Judaism, regular Judaism,
is a supremacist religion. And as long as you have
a group that has power, that has wealth, that believes
that they're supreme to everyone else, you have a real problem.
You have a real problem.
Speaker 2: You mentioned something that triggered me there or not made
me think of something actually not triggering, trigger triggered. I thought,
I get thing, which is I I've heard actually been
and I and I've I've tried to do this myself,
which is, you know, arguing politics. Ben Shapiro has said
he tries not to argue them from a religious perspective. Okay,
let's talk about abortion or whatever you want to talk about,
because it doesn't it immediately alienate some people. Yet is
there anything about this this current conflict that is not
based in his religious perspective, so he can't argue it
from there. So there's been there's been some really good
coming to Jesus moment for me at least with him
of like, yeah, you're just I there's a lot of
people out there right now.
Speaker 1: There was a time when I would listen to him
every once in a while twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, you know,
when he was doing a lot of the takedowns of
the of the the growing woke at the time. And
I remember him once saying, he said, I don't even
consider people to be a Jew who were born into
a Jewish family. You're not Jewish unless you practice the faith.
And he doesn't believe that. He doesn't believe that because
there is Zionism is not a is not. These aren't
religious people. Most of them are atheists. They will be.
They will be honest with you about that. They pay
very very little lip service to the Old Testament. They
talk about the Talmud thing. Then you know, that's what
they learn in Yeshiva, that's what they learn in Hebrew school.
And I mean it's he I've caught. He's been caught
in so many, if not out and out lies, in
so much inconsistency that he can't be taken seriously. He
can't be taken seriously anymore. And with this whole thing.
Since this thing started, you just get to see how
much of an emotional child he really is, because he is.
I mean, he's basically just throwing fits.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I he had had some tweet today. I just
the last bit of it. He talks about assurance by
all the right people that Jews ought not to defend themselves,
and I just replied, like, Jews are Israel? What do
you because that, to me is part of the problem here.
You know, America first suddenly turned into America first in
line behind Ukraine and Israel. It's just it's a weird
concept for me, coming from like pretty conservative upbringing to
suddenly seeing this. I don't know if the eyes are
opened more, but it's it's a fascinating, uh fascinating a
few few years for me, that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well I really appreciate this. This was fine,
and also to get it to hear it from somebody
who knows their way. We're in a court room and
had the mispleasure of being in law school.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sure I'm sure there was a lot of a lot
of good good you took out of law school. But
I'm sure there was a lot of wasted time there too,
just like any other school.
Speaker 2: Like I said it, the first line at first say it,
they at least my law school, they tell you we
want you to try to think like an attorney. And
for me that was was helpful. So yeah, once again,
I really appreciate this. Look, the what you can take
away from this is if someone's bringing this Leo Frank
thing up, now you you at least have parts of this,
you know. Like I said, when I first read the commutation,
I'm like, oh, maybe this guy is. And then you
go through it and it's it's a it's a slam
dunk case that people have had to glom onto. And
once again, why is this guy the person that well,
I think we've talked about it, and it's to create
They got caught up with themselves. They pushed this thing
too hard and now they have to stick with it,
which is it is fear porn. And you don't have
to you don't have to go down that route. You
could easily say Leo Frank was a pervert jew.
Speaker 1: Just just like they, just like his fellow the fellows
who went down there to to defend him. Yeah, yeah,
he's a pervert, and yeah maybe maybe they did. Uh ah,
let's leave that alone. Thank you, Tyler. I appreciate it,
of course,