Speaker 1: What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another edition of
Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask
me Paul Abernathy anything you want about the National Electrical
Code and of course, all things electrically related. All you
got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com.
It's a real simple form. You put in your information,
put in your question, hit that send button and I'll
get it and I'll either answer it in an upcoming
podcast or in an email reply. Either way, I appreciate
you taking the time to send me a question, and
I look forward to all of you out there sending
me questions on the National Electrical Code. Doesn't matter what
edition fourteen, seventeen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty three. Maybe you
got a question about something you heard coming up in
the twenty twenty sixth Code. I'm going to be next
week out in Renando Beach, California, working on the twenty
twenty sixth edition of the National Electrical Codes. All of
you out there go damn? Did it already go that quick? Yes?
It went that quick. Second draft meetings are taking place
in California, Cali, Okay. Anyway, So if anybody's out there
next week, you know, Halla at me, Halla, Hall at you, boy, Dan,
I'll be out at Redondo Beach and if you're within
riding distance, come on down. I'd love to grab a
bike to eat with you, maybe go out to have dinner. Dude,
I'll take a bunch of you out. You all work
together and coordinate it and then you'll just y'all just
come on down, all right. So I want to before
I get started, do you want to make an announcement
real quickly? I'm going to answer a question that a
gentleman sent in and Darlene kind of moved it to
the top of the heap here today. Y'all have probably
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enough of that, enough of the selling. So I had
a question that came in and Darling kind of sent
this one to forward it to me. She usually filters
all these things, and she sent me to this one
saying this is an interesting one, and she said it's
a long one and she didn't read at all, but
she got about third of the way through and she said, hey,
why don't you going to knock this one out? So,
so this is shout out to the individual who sent
this in. We're going to address your question, and the
question generally is about whether or not what when you
take a service and now you put a service disconnect outside,
and now the panel that's inside becomes a remote distribution panel.
Is that considered a service change? Is that considered a
service upgrade? Okay, so this is going to depend on
the jurisdiction. But let's go and read the question a
little bit and then we can get into some details
and kind of give you my thoughts on it here. Okay,
it says, good evening, sir. Love listening to your podcasts
on Spotify and I have learned a lot from you. Well,
thank you for listening. I'm having a disagreement with an
inspection department and would appreciate your feedback. Okay, here's my situation.
We install home standby and GENERAC generators. In doing so,
we get grounding service etc. Up to code. Okay, sometimes
we replace panels if needed. We deal with the We
deal with municipalities from about two thousand and four re
NEC cycle all the way to twenty twenty three cycle. Well,
let me tell you, sir, that's a lot, because that's
quite a few cycles and there is quite a few
changes in there. So a man, jumping back and forth
through different jurisdictions. That's gonna be you know. Kudos to
you for being able to do that, right. I have
to do it because it's my job to learn the
different cycles. And once you learn them, they're locked in
my head. But when you're a contractor and you're just
out there, man, it's tough to keep up with all
that stuff, all right. Anyway, He goes on to say,
my issue is that this specific jurisdiction they just changed
from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty has implemented a code
amendment that says, when removing, replacing, or upgrading any residential panel,
then arc faults are required. Today we did an install,
I'll transfer switch as our main breaker disconnect. Okay, so
you've moved the service disconnect outside now, so okay, that
says with bonding outside and refed the existing panel with
four wire and separated the grounds and neutrals, they consider
changing from a three wire to four wire and upgrade
and requires and require arc faults. Do you agree with
this or is it worth fighting? Thanks for your time. Okay. Well,
from time to time we run into jurisdictions who feel
like they need to pound their chest. And usually it's
their chief inspector or whoever it is, who's got a
little bit of an electrical background. Not a lot, but
a little bit. Might sound like Trump right there, I'm not.
I'm not getting started. Okay, I love him too. So anyway,
so you get somebody with a little bit of power,
and then what happens is they start making amendments to
the code, even though they don't have a damn clue
what they're doing. They make amendments. Now, there's nothing in
the Nationalogical Code that says this in your application because
you're not moving, you're not extending, you're not modifying, you're
not replacing any branch circuits. Right, so the requirements in
two ten dot twelve E are not going to come
into play for you, right, So that's off the table.
Then that's not what you did, and that's not what
they're citing. So it seems that they did a local
amendment and pretty much said, you know what, if you
replace it, upgrade it, then you're going to have to
bring the AFC requirements, a FCI requirements up to up
to current code. And so that's that seems like that's
what they've done. Now The problem here is I'm gonna
give you some Obviously you already have this. You didn't
share this with me in the the email. But they
any amendment they do, it needs to be in writing.
So I'm gonna assume they've got this in writing and
it's been you know, it's not a statewide and maybe
it's a local jurisdiction thing. I don't know where your
licensing is, since there's so many code cycles where you're at,
probably like a Pennsylvania or Nevada or something where every
jurisdiction kind of does their own little thing that's not
a good thing anyway. And so they've done a amendment,
and so they're the guardians of the amendment. So the
inspectors are able to make an interpretation based on this amendment.
So the amendment says if it's a service change, service upgrade,
things like that, that it requires the AFCI requirement to
kick in. So they specifically wrote that. Now I haven't
seen this amendment and so I can't speak to it,
but obviously let's assume that that's what they've done. They've
written one and it needs to be in writing that
type of scenario, Okay, assuming it is in your situation
since you are and I hate to be the bearer
of this, and it's not saying that I three one
hundred percent with the AHJS, but in this scenario, the
NEC would require it because you didn't extend anybody, and
I believe in going with the NEC. Okay. But by
adding that service disconnect outside, whether it's in your transfer
d not, you added outside and you converted the panel
inside to a remote distribution panel. Most jurisdictions, at least
the ones that I've been in, in that type of thing,
although I'm never as rigid as some of these are,
they consider that a service change. Right. So by adding
that service disconnect outside, you're actually modifying the electoral systems configuration, okay,
which is a key element when you're dealing with the
service now, because you're modifying the service equipment, and so
the panel that was inside is no longer a service equipment,
it's now a remote distribution panel, and now you've added
one outside. Again. This is again one of the areas
where most jurisdictions will say, because of this, that's considered
a service change or a service upgrade, even though I'm
a big believer that service changes are not necessarily when
you go from two hundred to two hundred. Let's say
you went from a two hundred and alf fuse to
a two hundred ANTH circuit breaker, you didn't really change
the service so, you know. But lucky for me, the
NEC doesn't require you to do the AFC anyway when
you do a service change. Okay, there's other things you
might be required to do, like sarch protection and all
that kind of stuff, but not in this case. And
of course you didn't you know, you didn't move the
brand circuits by moving the panel, then you didn't extend
the brand circuits more than six feet, so you're not
even looking at the exception under two ten dot twelve
V because we're not even talking about the branch circuits.
So this is something that the jurisdiction has imposed. So
here's the deal. I they're the ones that are going
to have to determine whether it is considered a service
change or service upgrade typically, and I hate to be
the bearer of this bad news since it does require inspections,
and it is a modification of the existing system, whether
the amps stayed the same or not, and the nature
of the way it was described transfer switched outside becomes
the main service disconnect now and then the inside and
so the changing to four conductors, whether I agree it
should be done, because to be honest with you, the
code wouldn't require that, the ANYC wouldn't require it. This
jurisdiction are the one that's got to make that call,
and a lot of jurisdictions if they're going to be
that rigid, they are going to say that moving that
service from inside the outside, changing the conductors that are
going in constitutes a major modification of the electrical service.
So they're going to treat it as a news service
and that's what they're thinking of now. Granted you asked
my opinion, and whether it's worth a fight, this isn't
a requirement of the any see. This is obviously a
requirement of the local jurisdiction. So the only fight that
you could have, whether it'sn't worth the fight, is if
it's not writing, if it's not documented, and it's just
somebody says this is what we're doing now or whatever,
and you've asked them to produce the document, or the
document's not published somewhere, then you know, if it's not
published and you've got to fight and it's worth the fight,
absolutely worth the fight, because they need to put their
stuff in written form. They need to make it very
clear so that nobody can waffle on it. It's very
clear now as far as the interpretation, again, you're going
to run into that situation where they're the ones that
are making up the rules. They're the one that made
the amendment. They're the one that determines that that is
a major modification of the service to warrant them to
impose this new code amendment that they've written. And so
since they're the arbiters of it, you pretty much are stuck. Now.
Like I said, if it's not in writing, then I say,
screw you. I go to the building official. If he's
the one that's also the chief electrical inspector and the
one that's pushing this, then I go to the city manager.
I go to the mayor. In fact, I wouldn't be
you know, I know me. I don't know you, but
I know me. If I was in the right and
they were making me do something that wasn't documented, then
I would go to city council meeting and make my
voice heard. So there's many avenues that you could do.
If it's not in writing. It's just people, you know,
hearsay or somebody says, well, this is how I want
it done or whatnot, and I'm like, well, it doesn't
matter about what you want done. But if they actually
have something formal and it's written, at the end of
the day, it's going to be up to the whoever's
doing the inspection, whoever's the deputy for the HJA the extension.
And they're saying that it's a service change, then I
don't know that it's worth the fight. They're saying it's
a service upgrade. Well, it's no doubt that it's not
an upgrade. Okay, you you took it from a situation
where it didn't have an exterior disconnect, which now we
could say it's the exterior emergency disconnect because it sounds
like a dwelling. So that's kind of a change. And
so in that scenario, you're really becoming compliant with the
one and two family dwelling requirement in two thirty eighty
five of the NEEC. So at the end of the day,
there's a lot of things that could make us say
that this is a service upgrade. And you can kind
of see where the jurisdiction would have a point, but
only because of their amendment, not because of what the
NEC says. Okay, so you could argue the grounds of
the NEC, but if they've got a formal amendment written,
then from my opinion, it is considered to me a
service change, and it's certainly an upgrade because you went
from not having an exterior service disconnect excuse me, an
exterior emergency disconnect to now having one. So you know,
at the end of the day, you can look at
it that way. Now, let me talk about something different,
because this is something that comes up with my brother.
So you've given a price to a customer and you
weren't aware. Let's say that you'd need ten, fifteen or
whatever it is of afcis and they're not cheap. I
get it, I get it. You know what is it?
And you know ninety five bucks a piece or something
like that, So I get it. So you now your
customer's like, well, wait a minute, I got this bill
for god knows what. You know. If there's if you
need ten of them right, then you're like, dude, They're like,
that's nine hundred and fifty bucks. Where the hell did
that come from? And I think it's tough for the contractor.
And I say this to my brother all the time.
I'm like, you know, I passed the buck onto the customer.
I'm like, dude, I'm sorry, I gave you an estimate.
You know, an estimate. It's an estimate, you know. The
I can't help it if the AHJ is forcing this
thing on me. They wrote this amendment. They're the ones
that hold all the cards when it comes to that. Now,
you can fight code, right, you can fight a misinterpretation
of the code or disagreement with an inspector over some
code rule, but it's very hard to fight when they
write the amendment because they hold all the cards. So
when I'm talking to the customer, and I tell my
brother this all the time, I'm like, you know what,
I tell the customer, Well, if it's ten more afcis,
I'm like, dud, you know, it's another nine hundred and fifty.
But they go, what the hell you can charge me nine.
I'm like, dude, I'm charging you cost for these afcis.
I'm working with you, okay, I'm meeting you halfway. It's
my labor that's got to put them in and you know,
and lick your wounds and move on to the next job.
But in this scenario, the customer has got to pay it.
If the hj's requirement, the customer's got to pay it.
And I know, we hate to say that to the
customer because the customers now getting hit with the nine
hundred and fifty dollars they weren't aware of. But you
know what, if you ever watch those shows on TV
fixer rupper shows where they go and fix something up,
you know, fix it or list it, that type of thing,
and they're doing work and I end up coming back
to them say, oh, you know what, we got to
tear this wall open. We didn't know what was in it,
so that's gonna be another twenty five hundred dollars or
another fifty hundred dollars. And then the customer's like, okay,
well it's the same situation. I mean, you certainly, as
a contractor shouldn't be screwed on this, okay, because the
city or jurisdiction has this amendment. Okay, that's the customer's
gonna have to bear the brunt of that. You're just
doing a job, that's it. And so you know, they
could have said, well, if I had have known that,
i'd have never done it. Well, you know, that's just
one of those those things that we have to deal with,
and it's just is what it is. So I want
to end this one and answer your question. Do I
agree with this? I don't agree with them making you
put the AFCIS in. In other words, I don't agree
with the amendment. Do I agree that it's an upgrade
or service change yet, based on way you're describing it, Yes,
I do, even if it may be a like for
like as far as AMPS wise, because of the details,
because of the permitting requirement. Because you're changing from three
to four I means you're moving the grounding electrode system outside.
You're making enough changes that I think, and you're adding
the service disconnect outside incorporated into the transfer. I think
it would be considered a change or an upgrade, certainly
an enhancement. Okay, so that's probably what they're looking at.
Do I think it's right? No? Do that? I think
that way They should just follow the NEC absolutely, But
it is what it is. So do I think it's
worth the fight? Not? If there's a written agreement, excuse me,
a written amendment, then no, it's not worth the fight.
If it isn't written, it is just hearsay urban legend
passed through all of these inspectors and that jurisdiction, then
I would say they're full of shit. I would tell
them to pound sand and I would keep fighting up
the ladder until I got some kind of restitution for it.
I don't know if restitution is the right word for it.
Resolution probably better, but I'd keep fighting. But make them
show you the document and remember that again, they're the
ones that control the rules because they have the amendment
and they're considering it an upgrade or service change. And
I've kind of given you my opinion on the details
to that. Then I pretty much think you got to
work it out with your customer. I hate to be
the bearer of the bad news because you listen to
all my stuff, so I don't want to. I want
you to start hating me or anything, you know what
I'm saying. Not that I think I could help you
with that jurisdiction anyway, but at the end of the day,
those are my thoughts on it. And so again, hopefully
you got something out of that. And I don't know
that it'll help you, but that's the best I've got
for it. All right, folks. Remember, if you've got something
that you want me to talk about on an upcoming
episode of Let's Ask Paul the podcast, just go to
Paul Aberdathy dot com. You can submit your question and
I may like what I say, and you may not
like what I say. Hey, it is what it is.
Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless us, Stay safe,