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Speaker 1: What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another edition of

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Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask

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me Paul Abernathy anything you want about the National Electrical

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Code and of course, all things electrically related. All you

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got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com.

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It's a real simple form. You put in your information,

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put in your question, hit that send button and I'll

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get it and I'll either answer it in an upcoming

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podcast or in an email reply. Either way, I appreciate

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you taking the time to send me a question, and

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I look forward to all of you out there sending

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me questions on the National Electrical Code. Doesn't matter what

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edition fourteen, seventeen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty three. Maybe you

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got a question about something you heard coming up in

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the twenty twenty sixth Code. I'm going to be next

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week out in Renando Beach, California, working on the twenty

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twenty sixth edition of the National Electrical Codes. All of

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you out there go damn? Did it already go that quick? Yes?

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It went that quick. Second draft meetings are taking place

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in California, Cali, Okay. Anyway, So if anybody's out there

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next week, you know, Halla at me, Halla, Hall at you, boy, Dan,

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I'll be out at Redondo Beach and if you're within

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riding distance, come on down. I'd love to grab a

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bike to eat with you, maybe go out to have dinner. Dude,

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I'll take a bunch of you out. You all work

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together and coordinate it and then you'll just y'all just

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come on down, all right. So I want to before

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I get started, do you want to make an announcement

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real quickly? I'm going to answer a question that a

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gentleman sent in and Darlene kind of moved it to

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the top of the heap here today. Y'all have probably

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been hearing me lately do the mobile edition of Master

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the NEC podcast where I'm cruising down the road just

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talking about different topics. Hopefully, enjoy the mobile. It's just

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me connecting with you on a real down to earth level. Obviously,

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these that are back in the studio are a little

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bit more formal, right, But again, I enjoy doing the

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mobiles because it allows me to just turn the thing

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on and just ratchet jaw about whatever the topic is.

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And of course, once we're back in Virginia and I'm

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not under the restrictions that I am now about talking

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freely about certain things. Boy, you'll see things open up

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as I start to talk about all kinds of topics

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that some may be controversial, some may not, you know,

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but hey, we're going to open it up. And hopefully

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you're subscribing on all of our social platforms so that

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you're aware of when that takes place. All right. Also,

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just in case you did not know, for all of

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you that would like our residential and commercial wiring courses,

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they are back. They are available one fasttracksystem dot com.

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So these are for people that maybe you're doing commercial

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work and you want to start doing some residential. This

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is a great way to get you up to speed.

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Maybe you're doing residential and you want to start doing

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some commercial This is a great way to get you

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up to speed with the codes and applications and specific

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room by room installations and all of that. So it's

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great courses available now, those are twelve month courses. We

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will have the possibility of extending those at the end

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of twelve month if interested, but keep in mind their

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twelve month courses. And we also are excited to introduce

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our Electricity one oh one, our basics course. Again, that's

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a great course because this talks about owns law, Watts law,

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talks about series parallels, transformers, single phase, three phase motors, transformers,

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all kinds of topics that you really should know. Also

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combination series parallel circuits. Again, it's just good to know

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for examprep. But hell, it's just good to know anyway.

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And a whole bunch of hosts of other topics that

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are around electrical and electrical basics and theory are all

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available now over on fasttracksystem dot com. It's called Electricity

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Basics one oh one. Check it out. It's the cheapest

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we've ever offered it, and so we're excited about that. Okay,

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enough of that, enough of the selling. So I had

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a question that came in and Darling kind of sent

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this one to forward it to me. She usually filters

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all these things, and she sent me to this one

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saying this is an interesting one, and she said it's

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a long one and she didn't read at all, but

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she got about third of the way through and she said, hey,

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why don't you going to knock this one out? So,

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so this is shout out to the individual who sent

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this in. We're going to address your question, and the

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question generally is about whether or not what when you

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take a service and now you put a service disconnect outside,

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and now the panel that's inside becomes a remote distribution panel.

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Is that considered a service change? Is that considered a

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service upgrade? Okay, so this is going to depend on

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the jurisdiction. But let's go and read the question a

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little bit and then we can get into some details

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and kind of give you my thoughts on it here. Okay,

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it says, good evening, sir. Love listening to your podcasts

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on Spotify and I have learned a lot from you. Well,

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thank you for listening. I'm having a disagreement with an

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inspection department and would appreciate your feedback. Okay, here's my situation.

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We install home standby and GENERAC generators. In doing so,

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we get grounding service etc. Up to code. Okay, sometimes

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we replace panels if needed. We deal with the We

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deal with municipalities from about two thousand and four re

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NEC cycle all the way to twenty twenty three cycle. Well,

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let me tell you, sir, that's a lot, because that's

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quite a few cycles and there is quite a few

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changes in there. So a man, jumping back and forth

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through different jurisdictions. That's gonna be you know. Kudos to

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you for being able to do that, right. I have

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to do it because it's my job to learn the

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different cycles. And once you learn them, they're locked in

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my head. But when you're a contractor and you're just

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out there, man, it's tough to keep up with all

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that stuff, all right. Anyway, He goes on to say,

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my issue is that this specific jurisdiction they just changed

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from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty has implemented a code

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amendment that says, when removing, replacing, or upgrading any residential panel,

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then arc faults are required. Today we did an install,

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I'll transfer switch as our main breaker disconnect. Okay, so

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you've moved the service disconnect outside now, so okay, that

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says with bonding outside and refed the existing panel with

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four wire and separated the grounds and neutrals, they consider

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changing from a three wire to four wire and upgrade

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and requires and require arc faults. Do you agree with

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this or is it worth fighting? Thanks for your time. Okay. Well,

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from time to time we run into jurisdictions who feel

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like they need to pound their chest. And usually it's

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their chief inspector or whoever it is, who's got a

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little bit of an electrical background. Not a lot, but

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a little bit. Might sound like Trump right there, I'm not.

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I'm not getting started. Okay, I love him too. So anyway,

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so you get somebody with a little bit of power,

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and then what happens is they start making amendments to

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the code, even though they don't have a damn clue

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what they're doing. They make amendments. Now, there's nothing in

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the Nationalogical Code that says this in your application because

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you're not moving, you're not extending, you're not modifying, you're

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not replacing any branch circuits. Right, so the requirements in

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two ten dot twelve E are not going to come

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into play for you, right, So that's off the table.

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Then that's not what you did, and that's not what

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they're citing. So it seems that they did a local

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amendment and pretty much said, you know what, if you

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replace it, upgrade it, then you're going to have to

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bring the AFC requirements, a FCI requirements up to up

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to current code. And so that's that seems like that's

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what they've done. Now The problem here is I'm gonna

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give you some Obviously you already have this. You didn't

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share this with me in the the email. But they

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any amendment they do, it needs to be in writing.

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So I'm gonna assume they've got this in writing and

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it's been you know, it's not a statewide and maybe

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it's a local jurisdiction thing. I don't know where your

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licensing is, since there's so many code cycles where you're at,

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probably like a Pennsylvania or Nevada or something where every

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jurisdiction kind of does their own little thing that's not

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a good thing anyway. And so they've done a amendment,

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and so they're the guardians of the amendment. So the

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inspectors are able to make an interpretation based on this amendment.

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So the amendment says if it's a service change, service upgrade,

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things like that, that it requires the AFCI requirement to

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kick in. So they specifically wrote that. Now I haven't

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seen this amendment and so I can't speak to it,

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but obviously let's assume that that's what they've done. They've

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written one and it needs to be in writing that

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type of scenario, Okay, assuming it is in your situation

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since you are and I hate to be the bearer

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of this, and it's not saying that I three one

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hundred percent with the AHJS, but in this scenario, the

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NEC would require it because you didn't extend anybody, and

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I believe in going with the NEC. Okay. But by

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adding that service disconnect outside, whether it's in your transfer

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d not, you added outside and you converted the panel

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inside to a remote distribution panel. Most jurisdictions, at least

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the ones that I've been in, in that type of thing,

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although I'm never as rigid as some of these are,

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they consider that a service change. Right. So by adding

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that service disconnect outside, you're actually modifying the electoral systems configuration, okay,

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which is a key element when you're dealing with the

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service now, because you're modifying the service equipment, and so

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the panel that was inside is no longer a service equipment,

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it's now a remote distribution panel, and now you've added

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one outside. Again. This is again one of the areas

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where most jurisdictions will say, because of this, that's considered

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a service change or a service upgrade, even though I'm

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a big believer that service changes are not necessarily when

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you go from two hundred to two hundred. Let's say

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you went from a two hundred and alf fuse to

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a two hundred ANTH circuit breaker, you didn't really change

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the service so, you know. But lucky for me, the

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NEC doesn't require you to do the AFC anyway when

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you do a service change. Okay, there's other things you

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might be required to do, like sarch protection and all

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that kind of stuff, but not in this case. And

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of course you didn't you know, you didn't move the

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brand circuits by moving the panel, then you didn't extend

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the brand circuits more than six feet, so you're not

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even looking at the exception under two ten dot twelve

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V because we're not even talking about the branch circuits.

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So this is something that the jurisdiction has imposed. So

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here's the deal. I they're the ones that are going

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to have to determine whether it is considered a service

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change or service upgrade typically, and I hate to be

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the bearer of this bad news since it does require inspections,

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and it is a modification of the existing system, whether

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the amps stayed the same or not, and the nature

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of the way it was described transfer switched outside becomes

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the main service disconnect now and then the inside and

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so the changing to four conductors, whether I agree it

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should be done, because to be honest with you, the

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code wouldn't require that, the ANYC wouldn't require it. This

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jurisdiction are the one that's got to make that call,

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and a lot of jurisdictions if they're going to be

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that rigid, they are going to say that moving that

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service from inside the outside, changing the conductors that are

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going in constitutes a major modification of the electrical service.

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So they're going to treat it as a news service

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and that's what they're thinking of now. Granted you asked

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my opinion, and whether it's worth a fight, this isn't

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a requirement of the any see. This is obviously a

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requirement of the local jurisdiction. So the only fight that

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you could have, whether it'sn't worth the fight, is if

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it's not writing, if it's not documented, and it's just

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somebody says this is what we're doing now or whatever,

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and you've asked them to produce the document, or the

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document's not published somewhere, then you know, if it's not

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published and you've got to fight and it's worth the fight,

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absolutely worth the fight, because they need to put their

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stuff in written form. They need to make it very

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clear so that nobody can waffle on it. It's very

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clear now as far as the interpretation, again, you're going

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to run into that situation where they're the ones that

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are making up the rules. They're the one that made

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the amendment. They're the one that determines that that is

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a major modification of the service to warrant them to

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impose this new code amendment that they've written. And so

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since they're the arbiters of it, you pretty much are stuck. Now.

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Like I said, if it's not in writing, then I say,

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screw you. I go to the building official. If he's

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the one that's also the chief electrical inspector and the

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one that's pushing this, then I go to the city manager.

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I go to the mayor. In fact, I wouldn't be

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you know, I know me. I don't know you, but

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I know me. If I was in the right and

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they were making me do something that wasn't documented, then

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I would go to city council meeting and make my

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voice heard. So there's many avenues that you could do.

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If it's not in writing. It's just people, you know,

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hearsay or somebody says, well, this is how I want

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it done or whatnot, and I'm like, well, it doesn't

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matter about what you want done. But if they actually

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have something formal and it's written, at the end of

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the day, it's going to be up to the whoever's

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doing the inspection, whoever's the deputy for the HJA the extension.

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And they're saying that it's a service change, then I

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don't know that it's worth the fight. They're saying it's

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a service upgrade. Well, it's no doubt that it's not

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an upgrade. Okay, you you took it from a situation

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where it didn't have an exterior disconnect, which now we

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could say it's the exterior emergency disconnect because it sounds

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like a dwelling. So that's kind of a change. And

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so in that scenario, you're really becoming compliant with the

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one and two family dwelling requirement in two thirty eighty

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five of the NEEC. So at the end of the day,

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there's a lot of things that could make us say

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that this is a service upgrade. And you can kind

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of see where the jurisdiction would have a point, but

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only because of their amendment, not because of what the

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NEC says. Okay, so you could argue the grounds of

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the NEC, but if they've got a formal amendment written,

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then from my opinion, it is considered to me a

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service change, and it's certainly an upgrade because you went

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from not having an exterior service disconnect excuse me, an

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exterior emergency disconnect to now having one. So you know,

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at the end of the day, you can look at

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it that way. Now, let me talk about something different,

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because this is something that comes up with my brother.

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So you've given a price to a customer and you

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weren't aware. Let's say that you'd need ten, fifteen or

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whatever it is of afcis and they're not cheap. I

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get it, I get it. You know what is it?

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And you know ninety five bucks a piece or something

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like that, So I get it. So you now your

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customer's like, well, wait a minute, I got this bill

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for god knows what. You know. If there's if you

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need ten of them right, then you're like, dude, They're like,

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that's nine hundred and fifty bucks. Where the hell did

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that come from? And I think it's tough for the contractor.

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And I say this to my brother all the time.

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I'm like, you know, I passed the buck onto the customer.

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I'm like, dude, I'm sorry, I gave you an estimate.

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You know, an estimate. It's an estimate, you know. The

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I can't help it if the AHJ is forcing this

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thing on me. They wrote this amendment. They're the ones

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that hold all the cards when it comes to that. Now,

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you can fight code, right, you can fight a misinterpretation

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of the code or disagreement with an inspector over some

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code rule, but it's very hard to fight when they

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write the amendment because they hold all the cards. So

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when I'm talking to the customer, and I tell my

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brother this all the time, I'm like, you know what,

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I tell the customer, Well, if it's ten more afcis,

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I'm like, dud, you know, it's another nine hundred and fifty.

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But they go, what the hell you can charge me nine.

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I'm like, dude, I'm charging you cost for these afcis.

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I'm working with you, okay, I'm meeting you halfway. It's

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my labor that's got to put them in and you know,

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and lick your wounds and move on to the next job.

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But in this scenario, the customer has got to pay it.

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If the hj's requirement, the customer's got to pay it.

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And I know, we hate to say that to the

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customer because the customers now getting hit with the nine

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hundred and fifty dollars they weren't aware of. But you

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know what, if you ever watch those shows on TV

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fixer rupper shows where they go and fix something up,

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you know, fix it or list it, that type of thing,

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and they're doing work and I end up coming back

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to them say, oh, you know what, we got to

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tear this wall open. We didn't know what was in it,

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so that's gonna be another twenty five hundred dollars or

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another fifty hundred dollars. And then the customer's like, okay,

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well it's the same situation. I mean, you certainly, as

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a contractor shouldn't be screwed on this, okay, because the

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city or jurisdiction has this amendment. Okay, that's the customer's

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gonna have to bear the brunt of that. You're just

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doing a job, that's it. And so you know, they

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could have said, well, if I had have known that,

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i'd have never done it. Well, you know, that's just

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one of those those things that we have to deal with,

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and it's just is what it is. So I want

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to end this one and answer your question. Do I

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agree with this? I don't agree with them making you

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put the AFCIS in. In other words, I don't agree

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with the amendment. Do I agree that it's an upgrade

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or service change yet, based on way you're describing it, Yes,

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I do, even if it may be a like for

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like as far as AMPS wise, because of the details,

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because of the permitting requirement. Because you're changing from three

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to four I means you're moving the grounding electrode system outside.

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You're making enough changes that I think, and you're adding

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the service disconnect outside incorporated into the transfer. I think

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it would be considered a change or an upgrade, certainly

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an enhancement. Okay, so that's probably what they're looking at.

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Do I think it's right? No? Do that? I think

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that way They should just follow the NEC absolutely, But

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it is what it is. So do I think it's

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worth the fight? Not? If there's a written agreement, excuse me,

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a written amendment, then no, it's not worth the fight.

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If it isn't written, it is just hearsay urban legend

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passed through all of these inspectors and that jurisdiction, then

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I would say they're full of shit. I would tell

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them to pound sand and I would keep fighting up

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the ladder until I got some kind of restitution for it.

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I don't know if restitution is the right word for it.

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Resolution probably better, but I'd keep fighting. But make them

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show you the document and remember that again, they're the

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ones that control the rules because they have the amendment

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and they're considering it an upgrade or service change. And

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I've kind of given you my opinion on the details

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to that. Then I pretty much think you got to

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work it out with your customer. I hate to be

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the bearer of the bad news because you listen to

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all my stuff, so I don't want to. I want

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you to start hating me or anything, you know what

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I'm saying. Not that I think I could help you

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with that jurisdiction anyway, but at the end of the day,

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those are my thoughts on it. And so again, hopefully

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you got something out of that. And I don't know

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that it'll help you, but that's the best I've got

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for it. All right, folks. Remember, if you've got something

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that you want me to talk about on an upcoming

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episode of Let's Ask Paul the podcast, just go to

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Paul Aberdathy dot com. You can submit your question and

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I may like what I say, and you may not

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like what I say. Hey, it is what it is.

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Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless us, Stay safe,