Speaker 1: Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 1: gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in
Speaker 2: my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have
Speaker 2: to say?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: Excuse me?
Speaker 1: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 4: I never win? And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 1: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com.
Speaker 1: Play for free right now?
Speaker 4: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 3: Nobri just necesaryfoid?
Speaker 4: We're gonna be my long eighteen plus terms conditions of
Speaker 4: pluck seems every details.
Speaker 1: Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an
Speaker 1: extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to
Speaker 1: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 1: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 1: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 1: Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 1: you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 1: That's you brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so
Speaker 1: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 1: casino dot com.
Speaker 4: No pusses every where, every I lost e terms, it
Speaker 4: is at play.
Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Knightstalker VTK every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your
Speaker 3: host Stan Zepanski for the program True Murder, The most
Speaker 3: shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that
Speaker 3: have written about them. Rhode Island detectives knew they had
Speaker 3: a serial killer in their midst, but the victims were
Speaker 3: women who lived and worked in the sexual underground and
Speaker 3: whose bodies were never found. Then prostitutes began to talk
Speaker 3: about a man who played very rough. Police arrested Jeffrey Mailhat,
Speaker 3: a seemingly law abiding ordinary citizen, and an incredible duel
Speaker 3: of wits began. A brilliant police interrogation led to a
Speaker 3: chilling confession. This book is an insider's account of a
Speaker 3: modern day Jack the Ripper, including the killer's own words,
Speaker 3: telling police how he killed women with his bare hands,
Speaker 3: cut them into pieces, and then went off to kill again.
Speaker 3: Ripper by Linda Rosenkrantz. Thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 3: to this program in this interview, Linda Rosenkrantz.
Speaker 5: You're welcome. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Now, what made you decide to
Speaker 3: write about this particular case. What was it about this
Speaker 3: case that interested you, that compelled you to write your book? Ripper?
Speaker 2: Well, I had written two books previously about spouse on
Speaker 2: spouse murder, and my.
Speaker 5: Publisher told me that two.
Speaker 2: Crime readers liked to read about serial killers. So I
Speaker 2: began doing some research and I found that there was
Speaker 2: a serial killer right next in the next state to me.
Speaker 2: I live in Massachusetts and he was in Rhode Island.
Speaker 2: And I did a little research and found out that
Speaker 2: in fact, initially he was just the man next door,
Speaker 2: and I thought that it would be pretty interesting to
Speaker 2: find out what made him.
Speaker 5: Do what he did.
Speaker 3: What do you mean the man next door?
Speaker 2: Well, he was so average, he hadn't even had a
Speaker 2: parking ticket, and then he turned thirty and he started
Speaker 2: murdering women, and you know, and even after he confessed
Speaker 2: to the crime. His co workers and friends and neighbors
Speaker 2: called the police and said, I don't care what he said,
Speaker 2: he just couldn't have done it. So he was just
Speaker 2: like every man.
Speaker 3: Well, when you get people testifying that that there's no
Speaker 3: way he could do it, that's a little even unusual,
Speaker 3: even for people that are again they're incredulous that their
Speaker 3: friend could do something. So this person must have been
Speaker 3: very convincing in hiding his real true identity.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 2: You know, people hung out with him, they went, you know,
Speaker 2: went to clubs, he loved to do karaoke, and they
Speaker 2: just didn't have a clue what he was doing behind
Speaker 2: closed doors.
Speaker 3: Okay, before we go on a little bit, we're gonna
Speaker 3: we're gonna get into his character right away because you're
Speaker 3: referring to that. But just for everyone out there, for
Speaker 3: those that may not know, what does the term ripper
Speaker 3: refer to in true crime circles, Well, it.
Speaker 2: Refers to Jack the ripper who murdered prostitutes and then
Speaker 2: cut up their insides and slipped the throats, cut up
Speaker 2: their insides. And this is what this guy did. He
Speaker 2: dismembered his victims.
Speaker 3: So it's also it to do with the organs, as
Speaker 3: us alluded to something to do with it. Okay, now
Speaker 3: let's talk about let's talk about the killer himself. What
Speaker 3: as per your research. Let's go back as far as
Speaker 3: we can and talk about Jeffrey Millhott. What was his
Speaker 3: family like, life like?
Speaker 5: He had a very.
Speaker 2: Normal childhood, a normal upbringing. His mother died of cancer
Speaker 2: when she was seven, when he was seventeen, he was
Speaker 2: in high school, and then four or five years later
Speaker 2: his father died. But he had a supportive family. He
Speaker 2: had aunts and cousins, and there was no childhood trauma
Speaker 2: or anything that happened to him in his childhood that
Speaker 2: could account for what he did.
Speaker 3: And you say it was a very close family, there
Speaker 3: was no, there was. He did not he did not
Speaker 3: see a counselor or a psychologist or anything like that.
Speaker 3: And you spoke to you spoke to how many people
Speaker 3: in the family, how complete?
Speaker 2: I didn't talk to the family. I tried to track
Speaker 2: them down, but I wasn't able to. But the police
Speaker 2: had information about his family. He gave them information about
Speaker 2: his family in his interrogation.
Speaker 3: Right, So there's no history of any any kind of
Speaker 3: problems in school.
Speaker 2: No behavioral problem, none whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what's his what happens after high school that
Speaker 3: he off? Does he graduate? Does he is he a
Speaker 3: fairly good student? Tell us a little bit at least
Speaker 3: about his adolescence life as much as you know, Well.
Speaker 2: I don't know much about his adolescence, unfortunately, except that
Speaker 2: he was he was devastated when his mother died. He
Speaker 2: didn't expect that at all, and he was he could
Speaker 2: handle it a little bit more when his dad died.
Speaker 2: I think he was twenty two. He graduated from high school.
Speaker 2: He was working in a machine shop, various machine shops
Speaker 2: in the Wombsocket area, and you know, he just was
Speaker 2: an average blue collar worker, no criminal history whatsoever.
Speaker 5: You know, he liked to hang out, as I said,
Speaker 5: he liked to.
Speaker 2: Do karaoke coincidentally in a bar that the wumbsock At
Speaker 2: police liked to frequent to also do karaoke. So he
Speaker 2: had crossed paths with the investigators on the case previously.
Speaker 5: But he was just your average guy.
Speaker 2: Nothing in his background accounted for what happened.
Speaker 3: Was he aware that this place where he went and
Speaker 3: sank karaoke was frequented by cops? Was he typically don't.
Speaker 5: I think he did.
Speaker 2: I think it was pretty well known, but it just
Speaker 2: it just happened that that was the place of wom
Speaker 2: Socket where he liked to go. I think it could
Speaker 2: have you know, it could have been coincidental that police
Speaker 2: went as well.
Speaker 3: So he was a social animal. He was a gregarious guy.
Speaker 3: He was from all the evidence you have. He was
Speaker 3: a real outgoing guy with a lot of friends and
Speaker 3: as normal as normal could be.
Speaker 2: Absolutely right.
Speaker 3: Now, the story of Ripper takes place in a city
Speaker 3: that you called wood Socket, woond Socket, Rhode Island. Now,
Speaker 3: what is the you know population pretty well, and what
Speaker 3: is the nearest.
Speaker 2: Big It's about forty four thousand. It's on the Massachusetts border,
Speaker 2: about fifteen miles north of Providence, which is the capital
Speaker 2: of Rhode Island.
Speaker 5: Wool Sockets. You know, it used to be a mill town.
Speaker 2: It's a very very blue collar.
Speaker 3: Right now, Jeffrey Mailheart does get in trouble. Obviously, he's
Speaker 3: a subject of this book, and he's now an adult.
Speaker 3: You say, his father died when he was twenty two,
Speaker 3: his mother died when he was seventeen. He was quite
Speaker 3: traumatized by that. If there was anything, what things, what
Speaker 3: behavior characterizes adult life and what was his and what
Speaker 3: was his overall behavior?
Speaker 2: There was nothing out of the ordinary. He was someone
Speaker 2: that you'd want to have as a friend.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: He went to barbecues with his friends.
Speaker 2: They had beer, they you know, they would just go out,
Speaker 2: they would hang out together. There was one thing, however,
Speaker 2: that maybe set him apart from other bachelors, let's say,
Speaker 2: and it's something that the police were intrigued by. He
Speaker 2: was incredibly, incredibly neat. Even his junk drawer was organized,
Speaker 2: nothing was out of place. And you know, his closets, everything,
Speaker 2: his DBDs, worth and CDs were stacked alphabetically. So he
Speaker 2: had a little i would say, obsessive compulsive disorder, but
Speaker 2: nothing that he ever sought counseling for.
Speaker 3: Right now, you say that there's his behavior as normal
Speaker 3: as it can be as everyone else. But obviously there
Speaker 3: is some use and partaking of escorts prostitutes. When did
Speaker 3: this behavior begin, I would say.
Speaker 2: In his twenties he started, although he wouldn't admit to
Speaker 2: it initially.
Speaker 5: And then he said, you know, he would.
Speaker 2: He would frequent prostitutes African American why it didn't matter.
Speaker 2: But he had a girlfriend, you know, and so who
Speaker 2: knows why men do those things.
Speaker 5: He didn't.
Speaker 2: He didn't seek them out initially, I don't think to
Speaker 2: harm them.
Speaker 5: He just sought them out for sex. And I don't
Speaker 5: know why.
Speaker 2: He lived in a in an area of Woonsocket where
Speaker 2: prostitutes frequented as well. There were various bars. It was
Speaker 2: a seedier section of the.
Speaker 3: City, right, And he came across as you say, it's
Speaker 3: a blue collar town and and you say, this is
Speaker 3: a city or part of the city, but he would
Speaker 3: come across as well, just for for a term. Would
Speaker 3: he be more yuppy compared to the blue collar worker?
Speaker 3: Would he be really out of place in that area?
Speaker 5: No, he totally fit in. He was he was a
Speaker 5: blue collar worker. You know, jeans and a T shirt, like.
Speaker 2: To barbecue, like to have you know, throw back a
Speaker 2: few beers with the guys.
Speaker 5: Totally fit in.
Speaker 3: Was he a clean cut guy or was he absolutely
Speaker 3: absolutely clean cut? Okay, now you say that he had
Speaker 3: a girlfriend, So is that typical of him that he
Speaker 3: through this whole through his adult life?
Speaker 2: Did he always well, he didn't have a girlfriend when
Speaker 2: this happened. He had a girlfriend for a number of
Speaker 2: years in his twenties, but he wasn't seeing her as
Speaker 2: a girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 3: Okay, So let me get this straight and for our
Speaker 3: audience as well. So he's a regular guy, looks, he
Speaker 3: looks the part, he acts the part, but he does
Speaker 3: frequent prostitutes. And that's what say a close friend might know.
Speaker 3: Would a close friend know that he frequented the prostitute
Speaker 3: or was he more secretive than that?
Speaker 2: How, I don't know the answer to that question. That
Speaker 2: question was never asked, So I don't know. I don't
Speaker 2: think it's something that he talked to them about at all.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it was part of his secret life. Right now, Now,
Speaker 3: when did women become began disappearing? You say in early
Speaker 3: two thousand and three? Right now, who was the first
Speaker 3: woman to go missing? Audwye Paris.
Speaker 2: She was a mother, she had three children, She was
Speaker 2: a daughter, she was a sister.
Speaker 5: None of these women were really.
Speaker 2: Into selling themselves just for the sex. They were in
Speaker 2: it to feed their drug habits. They were all drug
Speaker 2: addicts and that's the only way they knew to get money.
Speaker 2: They couldn't hold down jobs, so they had to turn
Speaker 2: tricks to get money for drugs.
Speaker 3: Right now, how is Audrey Harris killed? And what was
Speaker 3: the circumstances of her disappearance.
Speaker 2: Well, she had been at a party with her brother
Speaker 2: and he left and came back and she was sort
Speaker 2: of she was sitting on a chair in the kitchen
Speaker 2: and she was passed out on the chair, and the
Speaker 2: stove was open for heat, and he was concerned that
Speaker 2: gas was going to escape, and so he brought her
Speaker 2: into the living room and put her on a couch
Speaker 2: and he went out. And when he came back, she
Speaker 2: was gone. And nobody knows when she left. Nobody knows
Speaker 2: what happened. She was walking up Arnold Street, which is
Speaker 2: a street in the Cedia section of Umsocket, and Mail
Speaker 2: Hut pulled up to her and asked, you know, if
Speaker 2: it asked how much for sex? And they agreed on
Speaker 2: thirty dollars.
Speaker 5: And the fact that he was clean cut, I think.
Speaker 2: Led her to go with him more easily. You know,
Speaker 2: they're used to going with with men who maybe aren't
Speaker 2: as clean cut as this guy. He wasn't unattractive, he
Speaker 2: was fairly attractive. So she went with him and they
Speaker 2: had agreed on sex, and she started to take her
Speaker 2: clothes off.
Speaker 5: And he said.
Speaker 2: She said to him, go, you know, get the money.
Speaker 2: And so he was going to get them money. And
Speaker 2: he came back and she was in the living room
Speaker 2: and he facing away from him, and he put his
Speaker 2: arm around her neck and choked her right the urge
Speaker 2: just came over him to choke her, and he just
Speaker 2: choked her and until she fell and died. And then
Speaker 2: what happened to her, well, then he put her in
Speaker 2: his bathtub. He was drunk at this point, so he
Speaker 2: put her in the bathtub and went to bed totally
Speaker 2: not remembering anything that happened. He got up in the morning,
Speaker 2: going through his routine, went into the bathroom, not remembering
Speaker 2: any of this, and saw her body, and then it
Speaker 2: all came back to him that he had killed her.
Speaker 2: So he waited till at night, and he wrapped her
Speaker 2: up in a rug and he put the carpet in
Speaker 2: the backroom.
Speaker 1: Hello, and we could all use bright spot in our day,
Speaker 1: couldn't we just to make up for things like sitting
Speaker 1: in traffic, doing the dishes, counting her steps, you know,
Speaker 1: all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a
Speaker 1: big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumbuck Casino has all your
Speaker 1: favorite social casino style games. You can play for free
Speaker 1: anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. That's your bright New Day
Speaker 1: lope actually a lot, so sign up now at Chumbuck
Speaker 1: Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: Billberg necessary dtail where I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus, serve.
Speaker 2: His truck and drove around Woonsocket trying to figure out
Speaker 2: where he could dump her. And then he got really
Speaker 2: frightened and he said, someone is gonna see me do this.
Speaker 2: I can't just dump her body. So he brought her
Speaker 2: back home in the rug still, dropped her on the
Speaker 2: kitchen floor and went into the living room and sat
Speaker 2: down and had a beer. And as he was sitting there,
Speaker 2: he remembered an episode of The Sopranos with Tony Soprano
Speaker 2: killed a guy named Ralsey and then put him in
Speaker 2: the bathtub and dismembered him. And that's what he did.
Speaker 2: So put her in the bathtub, draped her head over
Speaker 2: the bathtub, cut off her head. He used a saw,
Speaker 2: just a regular hand saw, not an electric saw, and
Speaker 2: just cut her up in little pieces and put.
Speaker 5: Her in trash bags and then drove around Won't.
Speaker 2: Socket and disposed of her body like trash in various dumpsters.
Speaker 3: Now you you have repeated what you have put in
Speaker 3: the book as well, and so I wanted to question
Speaker 3: you about that. You said that he had passed out
Speaker 3: and when he awoke, and then he went to the
Speaker 3: bathroom and then he found the body. I mean, I
Speaker 3: was just involved in a case with the same story.
Speaker 3: It's even less plaus woven than your character, your subject,
Speaker 3: Jeffrey mail High. Now you put it that way, what
Speaker 3: do you really believe? I mean, it's the most convenient
Speaker 3: excuse geez, I just don't remember. It's very conned.
Speaker 5: I believe it. I totally believe that.
Speaker 2: Why is that he was so drunk.
Speaker 5: He was just drunk, and it.
Speaker 2: Could be I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but it
Speaker 2: could be that his mind just shut.
Speaker 3: It off.
Speaker 2: And he just went to bed as if nothing happened
Speaker 2: and totally forgot until he saw the body again.
Speaker 5: I mean that that's what he said, and I believe that.
Speaker 3: I just because based on Okay, here's the thing, and
Speaker 3: you don't go into it too much, he's frequenting prostitutes. Now,
Speaker 3: from the research that you've done for this book, is
Speaker 3: there any is that part of his uh not fantasies,
Speaker 3: but that's part of one of his characteristics that he likes.
Speaker 3: One of the fetishes in sex play is the choking.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's pretty characteristic for serial killers to do that,
Speaker 3: and to do it with prostitutes beforehand that have testified
Speaker 3: at some of these trials. Was there any indication in
Speaker 3: your information is that that was a character teristic?
Speaker 5: Apparently, because.
Speaker 2: When they were searching his apartment, ed Lee found a
Speaker 2: photograph of him choking with the same choke hold, choking
Speaker 2: a stuffed animal. So apparently he had a tendency to
Speaker 2: want to do that. But that's the only thing that
Speaker 2: they saw that led them, you know, to think that that.
Speaker 5: He enjoyed doing this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what I thought. I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 3: really see any evidence to to lend to lend me
Speaker 3: to believe that that that just happened to be an accident,
Speaker 3: because there seemed to be in your book indications that
Speaker 3: this was something that he did like. So he certainly
Speaker 3: he could He certainly could have passed out and did
Speaker 3: it by accident, but he certainly, No, he didn't.
Speaker 2: I don't think he did that by accident. When I
Speaker 2: mean what I meant was he didn't remember afterwards. No,
Speaker 2: I think the killing was deliberate, right, but he just
Speaker 2: didn't remember it afterwards.
Speaker 3: Well, it works in your benefit when you go to
Speaker 3: court and say that I didn't have the intent to
Speaker 3: kill you, see by saying that I don't remember it,
Speaker 3: so I obviously couldn't have the intent. But anyway, yes,
Speaker 3: so I mean, yeah, yeah, that's okay. Anyway, what I
Speaker 3: wanted to say was Okay, So now they have this
Speaker 3: first person, they have this first victim. What do the
Speaker 3: police do next? And you mentioned the person that is
Speaker 3: accredited with the being your co author here or with
Speaker 3: Captain Edward Lee Junior. So he's an integral part of
Speaker 3: the story, very part of this story and this investigation
Speaker 3: and the interrogation. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: what happened after.
Speaker 2: Well, Audrey's mom went to police because her daughter, the
Speaker 2: last she heard from Audrey was I'm getting off drugs.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna which is what they always say, and said
Speaker 2: I'm going to go into rehabit. I'm going to come
Speaker 2: and see you first, And she didn't, and she didn't
Speaker 2: keep in contact with her children, which she always did,
Speaker 2: so her mother knew that there's something was wrong, and
Speaker 2: she went to the police and found the missing missing
Speaker 2: person's report and so they assigned police to it, and
Speaker 2: you know, they talked to everyone she knew, they talked
Speaker 2: to her brother, but they had no idea what happened
Speaker 2: to her after she left that party, right and you know,
Speaker 2: and then in October, I guess they assigned another investigator
Speaker 2: to her case, but they still couldn't figure out what
Speaker 2: happened to her. Then in April two thousand and four,
Speaker 2: another woman went missing, Christine Dumont. And as with Audrey,
Speaker 2: Christine always checked in on her children. She had two children.
Speaker 2: She always called her sons to make sure everything was okay.
Speaker 2: They were staying with someone else because she, you know,
Speaker 2: she was into drugs. She couldn't take care of them
Speaker 2: and she hadn't kicked in with them, and her sister
Speaker 2: knew that something was wrong. So on a Friday, her
Speaker 2: sister went to the Wumsocket Police Department to file the
Speaker 2: missing person's report and the officer at the desk was
Speaker 2: very flip with her and said, you can't file a
Speaker 2: report because I just saw her last night, which he didn't,
Speaker 2: but he just didn't want to be bothered. He said,
Speaker 2: come back Monday.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't have.
Speaker 2: Made any difference because Christine was already dead, but nobody
Speaker 2: knew that at that point.
Speaker 5: And this officer just didn't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 2: So Christine went back Monday and went to fill out
Speaker 2: the report, and again it was the same guy on duty,
Speaker 2: and again he just wasn't being helpful, and he said,
Speaker 2: give me her description, and he said, oh, never mind,
Speaker 2: we have it in our system. So he was alluding
Speaker 2: to the fact that she had been arrested for drugs
Speaker 2: and prostitution and you know, so she was missing. What
Speaker 2: difference did it make.
Speaker 5: So Christine's sister.
Speaker 2: Madeline said she was going to go to the media,
Speaker 2: but the media didn't even want to hear it, you know,
Speaker 2: because over the years, other women had gone missing, and
Speaker 2: nobody at this point was saying serial killer. That wasn't
Speaker 2: on anybody's lips or in anyone's mind.
Speaker 5: At this point, there was another.
Speaker 2: Woman missing, so nothing much came of that. But then
Speaker 2: in July, the last woman went missing, Stacy, and now
Speaker 2: the police are thinking, maybe we have a serial killer
Speaker 2: on our hands, and that's how ed Lee got involved.
Speaker 2: He typically wouldn't have gotten involved. He was a sergeant
Speaker 2: at the time, but he typically wouldn't have investigated missing
Speaker 2: persons cases, but his boss asked him to look into
Speaker 2: this because this was the third woman and so that,
Speaker 2: you know, they talked to people who knew Stacy and
Speaker 2: the last thing that anyone knew her boyfriend. At the time,
Speaker 2: they were in a park. It was fourth of July,
Speaker 2: and she needed money for drugs, and she said she
Speaker 2: was going to walk up the street, Arnold Street, the
Speaker 2: same street where Audrey was taken from. She was going
Speaker 2: to walk up the street and find a john and
Speaker 2: turn a trick and make some money. And they never
Speaker 2: saw her again. So at first they thought it was him,
Speaker 2: you know, they investigated him. And then as they're investigating
Speaker 2: her death, police got a tip from someone who said
Speaker 2: they had spoken to another woman who told a story
Speaker 2: about being taken to somebody's house and being strangled by someone.
Speaker 2: But this woman put up a fight.
Speaker 5: And this was the thing with mail Hut.
Speaker 2: It was about control, and the women who put up fights,
Speaker 2: he let them go because it sort of killed his high.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're not giving in, if you're not
Speaker 2: surrendering to him, then he didn't want.
Speaker 5: Anything to do with you.
Speaker 2: So he let this woman go, but she never told anyone,
Speaker 2: and he counted on that. He counted on these women
Speaker 2: not going to police because they were prostitutes and they
Speaker 2: probably had warrants for their arrest, and besides, they figured
Speaker 2: and he figured no.
Speaker 5: One was going to believe them anyway.
Speaker 3: Right now, you say that, it's kind of unusual. Actually,
Speaker 3: if you look at serial killers, that that reaction, that
Speaker 3: somebody actually resists him and gets away. It's almost the
Speaker 3: other way. If they're compliant. It's about the only way
Speaker 3: that they've gotten away from some of these serial killers.
Speaker 2: Actually, actually the book I have coming out, the exact
Speaker 2: same thing happened.
Speaker 5: Though.
Speaker 2: Wow, the women who fought got away.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: You know, as I said, these men are interested in
Speaker 2: power and control, and once once someone breaks that spell,
Speaker 2: then they sort of just don't want anything to do
Speaker 2: with it anymore. So, once the police went to track
Speaker 2: down this woman whose name was Jocelyn Martel, and she
Speaker 2: told them her story. And so after she told him
Speaker 2: and she told them the house where it was at,
Speaker 2: you know, she led them to his house because she remembered,
Speaker 2: and then they went back into their files and they
Speaker 2: found another case of another woman who had the exact
Speaker 2: same thing happened to her the same house, and her
Speaker 2: name was Tithe Marris, and Teeth really fought and she, however,
Speaker 2: went to police. He let her go and she but
Speaker 2: she had left her stuff in his house, her purse,
Speaker 2: a sweater, a wig, and she wanted that stuff back.
Speaker 2: So she flagged down a cop and she said, you know,
Speaker 2: I want to get my stuff, and so the cop
Speaker 2: went back to the house. But they couldn't They couldn't
Speaker 2: go in, They couldn't do anything. But they filed a report,
Speaker 2: so ed Lee, you know, when they were looking through
Speaker 2: the reports and they came across this woman's story and
Speaker 2: then they talked to her and they realized that this
Speaker 2: was exactly what happened to Joscelyn mottal in exactly the
Speaker 2: same place. Sure, so they got a search warrant to
Speaker 2: look for the stuff that she had left.
Speaker 3: So that was the premise for the search warrant, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yep, look to look for her belongings. And so they
Speaker 2: waited outside his house for him to come home after work,
Speaker 2: and when he came home, they arrested him on charges
Speaker 2: of assaulting those two women.
Speaker 3: Uh okay, now what evidence did they find at the house,
Speaker 3: If any.
Speaker 2: They found, they they found Well, well, first of all,
Speaker 2: they were only looking. The search warrant was only for that,
Speaker 2: for those things, that's right, Fatis's belongings. And so as
Speaker 2: they were questioning him, you know, the police are looking,
Speaker 2: but they really couldn't look for anything else. And so
Speaker 2: they spent a long time questioning him, and first he
Speaker 2: denied ever visiting prostitutes, ever soliciting prostitutes. And then he
Speaker 2: would say, well, okay, maybe I did this one time,
Speaker 2: and then okay, maybe you know twice, and no, I
Speaker 2: really didn't. And so so in their interrogation they would
Speaker 2: they were trying to get to get him to be comfortable,
Speaker 2: so they would say things to him like, you know,
Speaker 2: we know things like this happened when men and maybe
Speaker 2: things got out of control, and you need to tell
Speaker 2: us now if something like that happened, you know, if
Speaker 2: if you murdered these other women, and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't hurt anyone. I didn't I didn't
Speaker 2: do anything. And and finally, through really incredible police work,
Speaker 2: they said, you know, if you did it, Jeff, just
Speaker 2: tell us and you know ed said his heart was
Speaker 2: like beating out of his chest because there came a
Speaker 2: point where he knew that that he that he had
Speaker 2: done the murders and he was going to confess, and
Speaker 2: finally he just looked at them and he said yes.
Speaker 2: And so they said all three and he said yes.
Speaker 2: So then they then they were able to get a
Speaker 2: search warrant for to look for anything that could implicate
Speaker 2: him in the murders. They were looking, you know, they
Speaker 2: they looked for blood spatter. They found traces of blood in.
Speaker 3: The back room.
Speaker 2: And that was the thing. His apartment was so neat
Speaker 2: and clean, but the bathroom was really dirty that you know,
Speaker 2: the bathtub was just was just filthy. And and although
Speaker 2: he had he had each time he murdered a woman,
Speaker 2: he bought a new saw, and the first two he
Speaker 2: threw away, but for some reason, he still had the
Speaker 2: saw that he murdered Stacy with, and so they found
Speaker 2: that saw in the basement. And even his basement was neat.
Speaker 2: His exercise equipment, everything was just neat, and you know,
Speaker 2: the police just thought that that was so strange that
Speaker 2: he is this bachelor and everything is neat. But yet,
Speaker 2: you know, his bathroom was was dirty, and so he confessed,
Speaker 2: you know, he said, I did it and how did
Speaker 2: you sorry?
Speaker 3: You talk about the Captain ed Edward Lee that it
Speaker 3: was a brilliant interrogation, and so you you just skipped
Speaker 3: over a little bit of how exactly they befriended this person,
Speaker 3: how they played upon him and his conscience to be
Speaker 3: able to do this. You know, you go into it
Speaker 3: in the book. Tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 3: what exactly they did and how it turned from denial
Speaker 3: of even visiting prostitutes to this full confession. This really right,
Speaker 3: you know, this was this was instrumental at the trial.
Speaker 1: So right, well, hello, it is Ryan and I was
Speaker 1: on a flight the other day playing one of my
Speaker 1: favorite social spin slot games on Chumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 1: I looked over at the person sitting next to me,
Speaker 1: and you know what they were doing. They were also
Speaker 1: playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having
Speaker 1: fun with it. Chumpa Casino's home the hundreds of casino
Speaker 1: style games do you can play for free anytime anywhere,
Speaker 1: even at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at
Speaker 1: chumbuck Casino dot com to claim You're free. Welcome Bonut
Speaker 1: that's Chumbuck Casino dot Com and Live the Chumber Line.
Speaker 4: Were necessary, I edily where everybody lost in terms of
Speaker 4: conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 2: Well, there was no trial, Yeah, there was no trial.
Speaker 2: He he ultimately decided to plead guilty.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what I mean. It negates the need for
Speaker 3: a trial when there's a confession, so that there is
Speaker 3: some bargain or some deal made.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, the.
Speaker 2: Police wanted they tried to play to the fact that
Speaker 2: he lost his parents when he was young, and they said,
Speaker 2: you know, these women have families too, and they and
Speaker 2: those families need closure. They need to.
Speaker 5: Know what happened. You know, they need to know what
Speaker 5: you did to the to these women. And you know,
Speaker 5: if you did it, you have to tell us.
Speaker 2: You'll feel so much better if you tell us. And
Speaker 2: and he, you know, he he didn't want to, he
Speaker 2: really didn't, and but they just they just befriended him,
Speaker 2: and you know, he thought they were his friends.
Speaker 5: And again they said, you know, we're all.
Speaker 2: Men, and we know what happens. And maybe things just
Speaker 2: got out of hand and you couldn't control it, but
Speaker 2: you need to tell us now, you'll feel better. And
Speaker 2: and you know, and they had never dealt with anything
Speaker 2: like that before, and they weren't they it was new territory.
Speaker 5: And and you know, and and they just they just
Speaker 5: finally wore him down, and you know, and.
Speaker 2: He's and he decided to confess. And but he never
Speaker 2: he never said he was sorry for murdering the women.
Speaker 5: You know, he he never felt bad for that.
Speaker 2: That's something that always struck me. He apologized to the families,
Speaker 2: but he thought he thought he was doing the police
Speaker 2: a favor by killing these women who didn't mean anything
Speaker 2: to anyone and were just prostitutes and who were they?
Speaker 2: And nobody cares if they're dead?
Speaker 3: And I'm helping you, right, Well, that's the thing. Uh,
Speaker 3: there's a rationalization. Now he gave you say, this is
Speaker 3: a shocking confession. And a day did he he had
Speaker 3: to give the police all the details, all the graphic details.
Speaker 3: And was he forthcoming with everything?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Was he absolutely was. He told you know how
Speaker 2: he dismembered their bodies, and one of the women he
Speaker 2: cut up in smaller pieces than the other, and how
Speaker 2: he would put an arm and a leg in one
Speaker 2: bag and maybe feet in a head in another bag
Speaker 2: to make it easier to dispose of, you know, to
Speaker 2: make it easier to carry. And then everything went so
Speaker 2: he had to tell them what dumpsters you know, he
Speaker 2: disposed of them in and then the police you know,
Speaker 2: went to the landfill and talked to the people who
Speaker 2: ran the landfill to see the section of the landfill
Speaker 2: where those particular dumpsters would have would have gone with
Speaker 2: the trash would have gone from those dumpsters, right, And
Speaker 2: it was you know, it was like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: a week in the hot July sun, and it was
Speaker 2: a miracle. They did find a bag with the remains
Speaker 2: of one of the women, with Stacy's remains, right, and
Speaker 2: those were the only remains that they ever found. They
Speaker 2: never found the rest of the bodies at all.
Speaker 3: Now, finding the remains as per described by this person,
Speaker 3: knowing how difficult it is sometimes just to have a
Speaker 3: confession from one of these people without any real physical evidence,
Speaker 3: did that lay convince the police Edward Lee to say, yes,
Speaker 3: given everything, we definitely know because we have one body
Speaker 3: that despite not having the other two, we definitely are
Speaker 3: convinced that this guy is telling.
Speaker 2: The truth absolutely absolutely, you know, he even with a confession,
Speaker 2: you need physical evidence, and they were looking for evidence
Speaker 2: of these women at his house as well. They needed
Speaker 2: something because they were they were under the impression that
Speaker 2: this was going to go to trial, and so they
Speaker 2: wanted to give the DA some concrete evidence.
Speaker 5: And they dug up.
Speaker 2: He said he had some of the blood he had
Speaker 2: just flushed in the in the bathtub. It just went
Speaker 2: down the drain, and so they dug a big hole
Speaker 2: in the street and were trying to see if they
Speaker 2: could find.
Speaker 5: Any evidence.
Speaker 2: They put cameras in the pipes, and they found some worms,
Speaker 2: and they thought.
Speaker 5: That the worm the worm, the worms were drawn.
Speaker 2: To protein, and so they thought that this was evidence
Speaker 2: of the remains of the women. It turned out, however,
Speaker 2: it was just his protein shakes that these worms were after.
Speaker 2: So they didn't find evidence of the bodies in the pipes.
Speaker 2: So they needed some concrete evidence, and it was it
Speaker 2: was I think a cadet, someone just out of the
Speaker 2: academy who found the bag, you know, and Ed said
Speaker 2: it was one of the dirtiest jobs that anyone there
Speaker 2: had ever had to do. But they they wanted to
Speaker 2: do it that, you know, they wanted to help the
Speaker 2: families get closure as well. As finding the evidence.
Speaker 3: Certainly, certainly, now tell us about Edward Lee Junior. Why
Speaker 3: did he want this story to be told? I'm jumping
Speaker 3: ahead just a bit, but why is this an important
Speaker 3: thing for him to tell? I'm sure he doesn't have
Speaker 3: a dozen books out with his name on it. So
Speaker 3: why this story?
Speaker 2: Well, he wanted the story to be told, I think.
Speaker 5: To show that.
Speaker 2: I'm just speculating now, but I think it's because he
Speaker 2: wanted people to know that your neighbor, you know, this
Speaker 2: could be anybody, right, And I think.
Speaker 5: He wanted.
Speaker 2: I think he wanted to let the women know that,
Speaker 2: you know, to be extra careful, you know, to to
Speaker 2: watch who you go with, because someone looks clean cut
Speaker 2: and like your average guy, and you know, and and
Speaker 2: the next thing you know, you find out that that
Speaker 2: he's a serial killer.
Speaker 3: Sure, now, why did he not exercise his right to
Speaker 3: have counsel when he was questioned at.
Speaker 2: The police when he was questioning question, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that question. I think
Speaker 2: he just I think, deep down, on some level, he
Speaker 2: just wanted to get this information out. He just wanted
Speaker 2: it over with, And so I think I think that's
Speaker 2: why he didn't, but he never once invoked at all.
Speaker 3: Right, now, what was his demeanor like when he was
Speaker 3: recalling the all the circumstances surrounding the murder and the
Speaker 3: dismemberment and disposal of the body. What was his demeanor like.
Speaker 2: From from talking with ed A Because I didn't well,
Speaker 2: I saw a little bit of a video, but he
Speaker 2: was pretty calm, you know, just telling the story.
Speaker 5: He wasn't. He wasn't all that upset at all.
Speaker 2: And you know he and after he wrote a letter
Speaker 2: to his boss saying, you know, I'm sorry I did this.
Speaker 2: I mean, he wanted people still to think that he.
Speaker 3: Was a good guy, all right, and he rationalized that
Speaker 3: murder as well. He wasn't. He wasn't very truth full
Speaker 3: with his boss about the circumstances surrounding that as well.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, which is real indication too that he doesn't,
Speaker 3: you know, recognize what he did or and he certainly
Speaker 3: is rationalizing her right to the very end.
Speaker 5: I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't think he felt one ounce of remorse none whatsoever.
Speaker 3: You know, I think the thing is if you are
Speaker 3: you are capable of remorse, you wouldn't be capable of
Speaker 3: killing women and just getting rid of them like trash,
Speaker 3: would you.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to disagree with you there, Dan, and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna again I'm gonna reference the next book I
Speaker 2: have coming out, which is called Bone Crusher. I know
Speaker 2: I'm getting ahead of things, but it's okay.
Speaker 5: I've written.
Speaker 2: Bone Crusher is my fourth book. And the first two
Speaker 2: is I said was spouse on spouse murders, and one
Speaker 2: uh doctor murdered his wife, and another woman murdered her husband.
Speaker 5: And then there was Mail Hut.
Speaker 2: None of those people I ever thought felt an ounce
Speaker 2: of remorse. But Larry Bright, who murdered eight women in Puri, Illinois,
Speaker 2: I truly believe he was sorry for what he did.
Speaker 2: I saw hours and hours and hours of videotape, and
Speaker 2: in one of them, he asked if he could make
Speaker 2: a statement to his mother, and the police said sure,
Speaker 2: but anything you say we're going to use against you.
Speaker 2: He had already confessed at this point, and he was sobbing,
Speaker 2: and he was so sorry that he murdered the women,
Speaker 2: sorry that she had to have a son like him,
Speaker 2: and as a matter of fact, he wanted to stop
Speaker 2: so badly. He called in a tip on himself. He
Speaker 2: called in a tip to the hotline and said you
Speaker 2: should investigate Larry Bright because I think he's doing this
Speaker 2: so and I and I really felt sorry for this man.
Speaker 2: I think he wanted to stop. He didn't want to
Speaker 2: do this, And I think sometimes there are people who
Speaker 2: commit these pin as crimes, but for whatever reasons, can't stop.
Speaker 2: He was on crack and he heard voices that said kill, kill,
Speaker 2: and then when he was not on the crack, he
Speaker 2: wanted to stop, and he.
Speaker 5: Didn't know how.
Speaker 2: So I think that sometimes people can commit these awful
Speaker 2: murders and then really feel sorry that they did and
Speaker 2: feel sorry for the victims, feel sorry for the families,
Speaker 2: not just sorry that they got caught.
Speaker 3: Sure, sure you include in your book, and I thought
Speaker 3: it was interesting a story about Joscelyn Martel. You give
Speaker 3: the follow up of one of the women who appear
Speaker 3: in the book, and she was involved in this as well.
Speaker 3: You say that she was attacked by Jeffrey Maillott. Why
Speaker 3: do you feel necessary to include that information in the
Speaker 3: book and give us that story of the follow up
Speaker 3: for us.
Speaker 5: Her, it's both of them.
Speaker 2: It's tease as well, you know, Jocelyn said at the
Speaker 2: hearing when he pleaded guilty. She made a statement and
Speaker 2: she said, I think God saved me so I could
Speaker 2: be here to help other women and you know, and
Speaker 2: get and you know, help them get off the streets.
Speaker 2: And she was going to get off the streets, but
Speaker 2: the lure of the drugs is so great that she
Speaker 2: was back doing the same thing and she was attacked
Speaker 2: by someone else, as was Piece Mars. They wanted to stop,
Speaker 2: but they couldn't and and they went back to doing it.
Speaker 5: And it's just it's a shame. And I wanted I
Speaker 5: want people to.
Speaker 2: Know that these are real people with real problems.
Speaker 5: They're not just prostitutes.
Speaker 2: They're not people who can just be disguised thrown away
Speaker 2: as trash like mail Hut did. And I just wanted
Speaker 2: people to know what happened to them afterwards. Unfortunately, they
Speaker 2: couldn't stop doing what they were doing. They couldn't get
Speaker 2: off the drugs, and you know, and that's.
Speaker 5: What pushes them into this life of prostitution.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the thing is too I applaud you
Speaker 3: for doing that as well, but I think it's we
Speaker 3: have to counter. I mean, you have to counter as well.
Speaker 3: Is to focus our disdain for the killer and not
Speaker 3: try to attribute any of the blame. We'll say to
Speaker 3: the victim. We always say, well the innocent victim or
Speaker 3: all victims are innocent, right, you know, So you always
Speaker 3: see those kinds of terms. And the prostitute is the person.
Speaker 3: It's almost nobody else is identified by their and I
Speaker 3: use this word loosely occupation rather than who you know,
Speaker 3: they were just a prostitute rather than a mother of two.
Speaker 3: Why wasn't a mother of two killed when it's reported
Speaker 3: in the media. No, it's a prostitute.
Speaker 2: You're right, You're absolutely right, which is why I talked
Speaker 2: to Stacy's the father of her children, and I talked
Speaker 2: to Christine's sister, because that's exactly.
Speaker 5: What I wanted people to know. You know, who they were.
Speaker 2: They were, as I said, daughters and sisters and mothers,
Speaker 2: And they weren't just prostitutes. They were women who made
Speaker 2: bad choices.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, But you know again, like I say, the
Speaker 3: focus is is that these people just happen to be
Speaker 3: the most vulnerable people, people that are willing to jump
Speaker 3: in a stranger's car, and they are the people that
Speaker 3: the serial killer picks for various reasons. And then that's
Speaker 3: what we have, so we have a situation where these
Speaker 3: people are just the most vulnerable people. I think it's
Speaker 3: something to consider as well, and rather than having any
Speaker 3: disdain for people that are the most vulnerable people period.
Speaker 3: Right now, how did the researching and writing of this
Speaker 3: book personally affect you if at all?
Speaker 5: Well, this is this is an interesting phenomenon.
Speaker 2: When I'm writing and researching these books, I don't think
Speaker 2: about what I'm writing and I am My style of
Speaker 2: writing is I don't even write from beginning to end.
Speaker 2: I could write the middle of the book. First, I
Speaker 2: write whatever I have at the time, and then I
Speaker 2: put it all together and I send it to my publisher.
Speaker 2: But it's not it doesn't hit me at all.
Speaker 5: And then it goes you know, it goes to the lawyers, and.
Speaker 2: Then it goes to the copy editors, and I get
Speaker 2: it back and I have to you know, I look
Speaker 2: at pages that the copy editors have marked, and you.
Speaker 5: Know, I made a spelling mistake. This date is wrong.
Speaker 2: But again, I'm not thinking of this story as a
Speaker 2: co adhesive whole at this point. Then it goes to
Speaker 2: the proof readers. Then I get it back and I
Speaker 2: have to read it from beginning to end, and I
Speaker 2: read it as a reader and I'm horrified. That's when
Speaker 2: it hits me. That's when it affects me, when I
Speaker 2: think of, you know, what happens. These are women, These
Speaker 2: are human beings who were murdered.
Speaker 5: But when I'm.
Speaker 2: Writing it, I'm writing it with more of a sort of.
Speaker 5: A clinical eye.
Speaker 2: I guess you would say, I don't feel any emotion
Speaker 2: when I'm writing it, whatsoever. It's research. I'm a journalist,
Speaker 2: I'm telling a story. I'm not being affected by the
Speaker 2: story until I read it as a reader.
Speaker 3: Right now, A lot of people ask, and people are
Speaker 3: very surprised how many women that the majority of the
Speaker 3: true crime market are women actually, and that a vast majority,
Speaker 3: or at least I won't say vast majority, but a good,
Speaker 3: really good percentage, if not fifty percent or more. Of
Speaker 3: the publishers, the agents, and the authors themselves are women
Speaker 3: in true crime. And a lot of people would want
Speaker 3: to They wonder why anybody would handle some of these subjects,
Speaker 3: the gore or the graphic details, just the heinous nature
Speaker 3: of some of these crimes. Why do you think, why
Speaker 3: do you think women are involved? Why do you think
Speaker 3: they're interested in true crime. Why do you think they're
Speaker 3: interested enough to write about it like yourself.
Speaker 2: I can't answer for anyone.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 2: Anne Rule was a police officer before, so that was
Speaker 2: her interest. I'm an investigative reporter. I've been a reporter
Speaker 2: for twenty years. I always thought I would love to
Speaker 2: be a homicide detective. I would want to solve these puzzles.
Speaker 2: But I never want you know, I never wanted to
Speaker 2: stay at the bottom and walk the beat. I just
Speaker 2: wanted to go right in to be a detective.
Speaker 5: So that was never going to happen.
Speaker 2: And I used to read to Crime all the time,
Speaker 2: and I was fascinated. You know, what makes people do this?
Speaker 5: I wanted.
Speaker 2: I just loved the story, and one day I said,
Speaker 2: I can write this. I'm a reporter, I'm a writer.
Speaker 2: I'm an investigator. I want to tell the stories.
Speaker 5: I want to see what makes people do these things.
Speaker 2: And that's how I got into it. I always read
Speaker 2: and Rule. I just really really really liked the investigat
Speaker 2: investigative part of it, what the police did.
Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely. Now getting back to the subject of your book,
Speaker 3: Ripper Jeffrey may a Lot. Is there a death penalty
Speaker 3: in Rhode Island. What happened in the end? And where's he?
Speaker 2: He's in the adult correctional institution. I'm in Rhode Island
Speaker 2: for life, no possibility of.
Speaker 3: Parole, No possibility of parole, okay, and so so was
Speaker 3: he what?
Speaker 5: So?
Speaker 3: There was no trial at all. There was just just
Speaker 3: a just a hearing to confirm were they I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: you know, I.
Speaker 5: Hope I don't have that wrong.
Speaker 2: I thought it was without parole he could maybe he's
Speaker 2: eligible when he's seventy something. I'm sorry, I just don't remember,
Speaker 2: right right.
Speaker 3: Regardless, is unlikely he'll be ever released from prison.
Speaker 2: Absolutely no, there wasn't a hearing. Victims, you know, made
Speaker 2: their statements, and then you know, he said I'm sorry
Speaker 2: for the families, you know, again, never apologizing to the women, right.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I think that it's sometimes it's a
Speaker 3: relief I know in this country that criminals actually get,
Speaker 3: i mean, actual credit for at least pretending or showing remorse.
Speaker 3: I mean, I have a hard time finding that remorse.
Speaker 3: If they didn't have enough remorse to confess, didn't have
Speaker 3: enough remorse to turn themselves in, it didn't have enough
Speaker 3: remorse not to talk to another inmate in the institution
Speaker 3: and laugh and brag. You know. What I'm saying is
Speaker 3: that some of those people are will give an apology
Speaker 3: at the trial and on the advice of their lawyer,
Speaker 3: I would imagine, but you know, I don't think it's
Speaker 3: very genuine. I think it's disingenuine anyway. So I'm relieved
Speaker 3: when they don't, When they don't show any remorse, it's
Speaker 3: because I don't want it making a difference. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think it would be maybe the families would be
Speaker 3: would be would But you see, most of these guys
Speaker 3: realize at least that they should apologize to the families
Speaker 3: for their own families. So I think that's enough that
Speaker 3: they aren't cackling in court, because it could be worse.
Speaker 3: There are some people even like that, taunting victims after
Speaker 3: the fact or at court or at trial, or putting
Speaker 3: the families through trials and then acting up at the trial.
Speaker 3: So I guess it's a bit of a relief, you know, right,
Speaker 3: You know, so I think maybe what you can tend
Speaker 3: to too that he's not the worst of the worst.
Speaker 3: Maybe there's some credibility to that, or some validity to that.
Speaker 3: So now what's your What was the contribution of Captain
Speaker 3: Edward Lee. I know, obviously he gave you some behind
Speaker 3: the scenes information.
Speaker 2: But that's that's exactly what he did when I when
Speaker 2: I decided to work on this case, I called him
Speaker 2: and I told him, you know, I was interested in
Speaker 2: writing a book and my publisher was interested. And he
Speaker 2: said to me, I'm thinking of writing a book, And
Speaker 2: I said, I have no problem working with you and
Speaker 2: putting your name on the book in exchange for getting
Speaker 2: all this information from you. So that that's what we
Speaker 2: did exactly. And so you know, I credit him, credited
Speaker 2: him as my co author, although he will tell you
Speaker 2: he didn't write a word. But you know, he gave
Speaker 2: me access to all the information, access to the other officers,
Speaker 2: you know, numerous interviews.
Speaker 5: He took me to the that you know, one of
Speaker 5: the families.
Speaker 2: So he was very very helpful. I couldn't have done
Speaker 2: it without him.
Speaker 3: Right right now, So, what has been the reaction from
Speaker 3: the say, the community with this book itself in Woon
Speaker 3: Socket And has there been any criticism of Captain Lee
Speaker 3: at all for his participation in this book.
Speaker 2: No one, no, absolutely, not absolutely not. Everyone was glad
Speaker 2: that the story was out, you know, and and the newspapers,
Speaker 2: the Providence Journal, they all interviewed him. The families were,
Speaker 2: you know, we're glad that that people knew the story. No,
Speaker 2: there was no criticism whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Well, that's very good, that's very encouraging. How big was
Speaker 3: this story? How how far did it resonate outside of
Speaker 3: woon Socket.
Speaker 5: It pretty far.
Speaker 2: Cold Case Files did a story on.
Speaker 5: A segment, so it pretty far.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Wumsucket, you know, wasn't used to
Speaker 2: having a serial killer.
Speaker 3: No, no, it's very unusual. Right now, we have a
Speaker 3: few minutes left. Maybe you can tell us about some
Speaker 3: of your projects that you're working on now after this
Speaker 3: incredible book, Ripper, tell us about your next latest one,
Speaker 3: and then maybe he can go back to your earlier titles.
Speaker 2: And right, well, as I was mentioning, Bone Crusher is
Speaker 2: about Larry Bright, a serial killer in Puri, Illinois. It'll
Speaker 2: be out I think October fifth.
Speaker 5: He murdered eight women.
Speaker 2: Eight prostitutes. Well I'm not even going to say they
Speaker 2: were prostitutes, eight women who were working to feed the
Speaker 2: drug habits. Right, and he, as I said, he was
Speaker 2: on crack and he heard voices that told him to kill,
Speaker 2: and he burned.
Speaker 5: He dismembered four of.
Speaker 2: The women and burned their bodies in a fire pit
Speaker 2: in his backyard, and then after everything was burned, he
Speaker 2: would crush the bones into ash, so hence the title,
Speaker 2: and then he would dispose of the ash in various
Speaker 2: places in Peoria and in other towns nearby where his
Speaker 2: grandmother lives. And four of the women he disposed of
Speaker 2: their bodies intact, and which is unusual because serial killers
Speaker 2: usually have one method of murdering people.
Speaker 5: And so the police thought that there was some.
Speaker 2: You know, devious method to why, you know, were they
Speaker 2: trying to throw the police? Was he trying to throw
Speaker 2: police off the track by you know, burning some women
Speaker 2: and then just disposing of the other ones. And so
Speaker 2: they asked him and he and they said, you know,
Speaker 2: why did you not burn those other women?
Speaker 5: And he said, I.
Speaker 2: Couldn't because my mother was having company me and so
Speaker 2: I couldn't use the backyard to burn them. So it
Speaker 2: was just a matter of convenience. And yeah, but you know,
Speaker 2: I was always thinking, didn't anybody smell anything? His mother
Speaker 2: did once and she asked him about it, and he
Speaker 2: said he was burning plastic and.
Speaker 5: She believed him.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was such a mama's boy. And you
Speaker 2: know when I watched like forty hours I think a
Speaker 2: video of his videotape interrogation, and.
Speaker 5: He was he was He just was so different from
Speaker 5: Mail hot.
Speaker 2: He just was really like a regular guy.
Speaker 5: Like someone that you would want to hang out with.
Speaker 5: And again, I just really believed that he was so
Speaker 5: sorry for what he.
Speaker 2: Did and he wanted to stop, and the only way
Speaker 2: he knew to stop was by turning himself in. And
Speaker 2: although he couldn't bring himself to do it physically, he
Speaker 2: did call the police and say, you know, look at
Speaker 2: Larry Bright, he's doing this. And the women again the
Speaker 2: same with Mailhaut, the women who fought him, he let
Speaker 2: them go and because you know, again he didn't think
Speaker 2: that they would go to the police, which they didn't,
Speaker 2: and because you know, one woman got away and she
Speaker 2: never went to the police because there was a warrant
Speaker 2: out on her arrest, and one of her friends finally
Speaker 2: went to the police and said, you know, I think
Speaker 2: you should talk to her because I think she might
Speaker 2: have had the same experience. But at least she made
Speaker 2: it out alive.
Speaker 3: Right, How did you come to have access to this
Speaker 3: forty hours of physical.
Speaker 2: The state's attorney everything since he confessed and there were
Speaker 2: no appeals. They it was all public information. And so
Speaker 2: the state's attorney for Peoria just gave me all the
Speaker 2: the DVDs. So did you third three thousand pages of
Speaker 2: other police reports and everything.
Speaker 3: Wow? So that is featured prominently in your book as
Speaker 3: well some of the transcripts.
Speaker 5: From the transcripts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yes, And it took you know, he took
Speaker 2: them everywhere too. He took them because to find the
Speaker 2: you know, the bodies were found, but he took them
Speaker 2: to the places where he said he dumped the bones
Speaker 2: and ash of the other women so that they could
Speaker 2: have something, you know, for the families, although they didn't
Speaker 2: you know, they did find some ash, but they just
Speaker 2: didn't find everything.
Speaker 3: So it was pretty well the evidence that he pointed
Speaker 3: them to was pretty inconclusive. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2: Well, actually, the evidence for the four women who were
Speaker 2: dismembered and burned, they couldn't get any DNA whatsoever, So
Speaker 2: it was only his confession. They did get DNA from
Speaker 2: one of the women with whom he had sex, one
Speaker 2: of the women whose body he disposed of intact, so
Speaker 2: they got his DNA from her. But the women who
Speaker 2: were burned, they the bones were so small they couldn't
Speaker 2: even identify those women. They only they only knew who
Speaker 2: they were because they they had gone missing and people
Speaker 2: had reported them missing. And then he looked at their
Speaker 2: photos and said, yeah, you know that one and that one,
Speaker 2: and there were two other women missing. But he said
Speaker 2: he had not murdered but he said he had nothing
Speaker 2: to do with them, although police weren't convinced, but they
Speaker 2: had no evidence to tie him to those other cases.
Speaker 3: And when does Bone Crusher do to be released?
Speaker 2: Sort of October fifth oct talking to Yeah, beyond Kindle
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: Oh, great, great and e book as well as is
Speaker 3: Pinnacle Publishing ebooks. Yeah, they are great, great, yes, uh,
Speaker 3: and you have a couple of other books as well.
Speaker 3: You mentioned a couple of Yeah.
Speaker 2: One is called Murder at Morse's Pond about a world
Speaker 2: renowned allergist who murdered his wife, and the other one
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts, and the other one's called An Act of
Speaker 2: Murder about Kimberly Rico who murdered her husband in Maryland,
Speaker 2: and both you know, both those cases were prominently featured.
Speaker 2: Uh the first one, Morse's Pond was on, They had
Speaker 2: Dateline did a story about doctor Dirck Grinder, and Kimberly
Speaker 2: was on Forensic Files. So they're pretty high profile cases. Right.
Speaker 3: That's great. And you are working, obviously as a journalist,
Speaker 3: so you're still are you working full time as an author.
Speaker 2: Or you're doing no, I'm I'm looking for another case
Speaker 2: at this point, but I do freelance writing and ghostwriting
Speaker 2: as well, so you're.
Speaker 3: A very busy journalist and writer.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: Oh that's great. Well, I want to thank you very
Speaker 3: much for a fascinating interview about a great book, Ripper,
Speaker 3: and I want to thank you very much for spending
Speaker 3: this time for us and a spell binding story here
Speaker 3: for us. So thank you very much, and you have
Speaker 3: a good evening. Thank you so much, Dan, thank you
Speaker 3: very much. You've been listening to Linda Rosenkrantz. Good evening
Speaker 3: listening to Linda Rosenkrantz, author of Ripper and this is
Speaker 3: true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history
Speaker 3: and the authors that have written about them. Have yourself
Speaker 3: a good evening, Good night,