Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we.
Speaker 3: Are broadcasting live from.
Speaker 2: Joyce Call, Canada's kitchen.
Speaker 3: Wintone is a little bit different today, folks. You can
probably hear a little bit of difference in the audio,
but we are so to be here. That means Bill
and I are actually broadcasting from the same location, yeah,
which very rarely.
Speaker 2: Happened, same physical space. And wait, they're special guests, Special
Guest number one, would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Joyce.
Speaker 5: Called Canada and I'm Keith Call's sister. He was missing
from the Colonial Parkway in nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2: And sitting in your lap.
Speaker 4: It's our favorite dog, Nikki. He's so friendly.
Speaker 2: Nicki's very cute, but sometimes quite assertive. We're hoping that
devil dog will keep it under control. During the podcast
Guest number two Special Guest number two.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm Killy Richards. I grew up in Gloucester and
I worked at the Roses department store in Gloucester for
a few years back in eighty six. That's when I started. Yeah,
so I have a little bit of experience in that store.
Speaker 2: And this is the era of the Colonial Parkway murders
eighty six to eighty nine. Christen, you had some notes.
What did you want to tell us?
Speaker 3: We decided that because we are here in Glocester, in
the kitchen of Joyce College, Canada, and joined by such
amazing guests like Kelly, we wanted to revisit the story
of Ron Little. He is the private investigator who inserted
himself into the Colonial Parkway murders and has been considered
by many to be a suspect in this case. In
light of the recent link of Lorian Powell to Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior via DNA, we wanted to revisit a
troubling aspect of this case, which is the linkage of
Lorian Powell, Robin Edwards and potentially Keith call as well
to Liberty Security aka Advanced Security, which was owned by
Ron Little. So we figured it was a good time
to go ahead and revisit this information so that anybody
who is not up to date on the case can
get a little bit up to date on this troubling.
Speaker 6: Aspect of it.
Speaker 2: One other aspect of the news about Lorienne Powell's case
now being linked officially via DNA by the Virginia State
Police and outstanding work here in this regard. Three of
the four people who have been linked officially with Alan
Wade Wilmer sor are victims who also have connections directly
to Liberty Security, and real important we've all got in
the habit of saying Liberty Security. Once Ron Little purchased
the company, he changed the name of the company to
Advance Security.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 2: D At the end, very important that we not dive
in here too quickly. Robin Edwards's mother, Bonnie Edwards, worked
at Liberty Security. Lorienne Powell worked at Liberty Security. Obviously,
David Nobling was with Robin Edwards, so that pairing and
they're considered the original Colonial Parkway murders. Those two are linked.
Lorian Powell is now linked. The only person of the
four who's been identified, Teresa Howell. We are not aware
of a connection to Liberty Security, but when three out
of four victims have a link to this very small
security company, to Christen's point, we thought we should be
revisiting Ron Little and a reminder for our listeners. He
died a couple of years ago in New Zealand after
a recurrence of cancer. And we'll talk about this more
as we go. Ron Little's family has now reached out
to me, his two sons in particular. He has five
children by five different women in two different countries, three
in New Zealand and two here in the United States.
The two sons in particular told me that Ron Little
told them forty decades that he was involved in a
series of unsolved murders in Virginia. Not being a career
criminal like Ron Little was, I still am baffled by
who the heck says that kind of thing, But it
is what it is. Let's turn the conversation perhaps to Kelly. Kelly,
you ran into ron little. You mentioned the Roses department store.
Tell us, first of all, what's a Roses department store?
Or what was it like.
Speaker 6: Little department store we had in Gloucester. He was our
security guard at the store. He started about eighty six
is when.
Speaker 2: He started, which is the start of the Colonial Clark
Gray murders.
Speaker 6: We watched him. He was a little bit of a
shady character, a dressed funny, always had mirrored sunglasses on,
and we noticed he never caught anyone stealing, but he
always managed to follow the young girls around the store,
follow him out creep. I even approached him one evening
about that. He didn't like for me to ask him question,
since that's what I did. And then the night of
Lori Powell, I'll never I'll remember her coming through the doors.
He's on the corner of the service desk. He watched her.
Speaker 2: And she was actually a beauty queen. She was a
very strikingly pretty girl girl.
Speaker 6: And I watched I said, this is it. And soon
as she walked by. He was right behind her. When
she came to the first register, which was right behind me,
he was behind her and this at the regiment. I'm
looking and I said, I know she hasn't stolen anything.
So when she went to go out the door, he
approached her and handed her a business card and gave
her the speel of Oh, this would be a great opportunity,
future job, better than working to McDonald's.
Speaker 2: And this is he's handing out cards for probably advanced
security by this point. No, still liberty, Still liberty. Okay,
he called it liberty.
Speaker 6: So she became a trainee.
Speaker 2: And that's how she was recruited to join the staff.
Then can you describe him? Tell us what he looked like?
How physically sure?
Speaker 6: The nineteen eighty little split with a feathered haircut, mirrored sunglasses,
long leather coat like he's in the cowboy movies.
Speaker 2: Well color, black, knife.
Speaker 6: Down in his boot, always had boots on, showed us,
and always a gun down in his pad.
Speaker 2: You knew that for a fact. He was counting that.
Speaker 6: Wow, So he was showing off for you.
Speaker 3: Okay, was he like did he hit on you? I'm
sorry that's a little personal, but okay, all right, but
he was willing.
Speaker 6: Too, busy chasing another little girl in the store.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, he has a long history.
Speaker 6: Yes, wife, that's Mette. I believe she was eighteen.
Speaker 2: She was Wendy Nutter little. Oh so you actually saw
their first encounter.
Speaker 6: Making of the romance. Yes, and he had to be
thirty something then, so we thought that was you because
he was old to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're when you're eighteen. Yeah, Yes, he had
long history of being very interested in underage girls. And
he had married two women in the United States, a
woman in California whom we've spoken to, and Wendy as well,
and they're both extremely young.
Speaker 6: Yeah. The one in California, I actually mistakenly he laid
his wallet out on the front desks one day and
I looked. It was a blondheaded lady and a little girl.
Speaker 4: Who's that?
Speaker 6: He said, Oh, that was that's my ex wife and
daughter in California, California. So how did you find Gloucester
from California?
Speaker 2: Yeah? What did he say to that question?
Speaker 6: Looked at me funny, and then he had a badge
on the other side of the wallet. So where'd you
get that? He said? That's my bad. I said, you're
not a police officer, and police officers are metal. That's rubber.
Did you get it out of a gumball machine? He
shut the wallet and he walked off and.
Speaker 2: He just kept looking at it.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: I was nineteen. I was taken him then.
Speaker 3: Probably hated being called on his bullshit. It was really
a rubber It was, Oh, my gosh, machine badge.
Speaker 6: I'm telling you wow.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about Roses. What Roses,
what was sold there, and et cetera.
Speaker 6: It's like a it was a smaller version of a
Walmart at the beginning of a wal Mart that we
have now, this was the beginning stages of those kind
of little stores that we had. It had a variety
of everything we needed. So everyone went to Roses to
go get clothes whatever.
Speaker 2: And Roses. They're still in business, and there's one in
York County.
Speaker 6: There is one in your county over the bridge where
we are and your county there is an existing Roses.
There might be one in Richmond.
Speaker 2: So what did you do at Roses?
Speaker 6: I was the service desk, not the manager, but I
was under the manager of service desk. Is you someone
returned to you do all the paperworg that kind of
thing was ever watch it all the cashiers.
Speaker 2: And were you working there full time or part time
at that point in time? How often would you see
Ron Little in the Roses store?
Speaker 6: Not every day because he also worked at another store
in Gloucester Courthouse, and I think he actually covered farm
Fresh grocery store in the same shopping center. So usually
the weekends he was with us at Roses, and during
the week he would pop up. We never knew when
he was going to be there.
Speaker 2: And he was an independent contractor then, and he was
in the loss prevention is what they called it back then.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what they called it. But he I don't
know what he really did besides to walk around and
look pretty he thought. He thought, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I have a picture of him on an article in
front of me, and he does not look like he
does not look like a dream boat. Got this great
looking sweater that only the nineteen eighties could have produced,
and really big sunglasses and fluffy hair. It's a yeah,
this doesn't scream thirty year old dreamboat to me.
Speaker 6: It definitely screams somebody who.
Speaker 3: I could see walking around in a fake duster with
a fake badge, just calling it.
Speaker 6: Like I said, would you see him?
Speaker 2: Because he would come to the service desk that was
a place to the store.
Speaker 6: He hung out in our break room. If we went
back into where the storage where all the supplies were, so,
he would appear there out of nowhere. If I ventured
out to another store like Ames was another little store
in the Creuse area of where we live, he would
pop up out of nowhere there too.
Speaker 2: And for the benefit of people that don't live locally
or have never been to an Ames, tell us what
an Ames store.
Speaker 6: Smaller version of the Roses. It was just another little
store beginning of Walmart era.
Speaker 2: Store, discount store, lots of different mean shoes.
Speaker 6: Some food items, fishing gear beginning of Walmart five and
dimes sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, two little stores. We
went to you.
Speaker 2: What's the story with Little's interaction with young and pretty women?
You said he never prevented any thefts that you remembered, No,
not at all. But what was this pattern of him
following pretty women around the store?
Speaker 6: That was his pattern? And I believe he just thought
he was going to have a lot of girlfriends, I
really do think. But then when I saw him approaching
people with his little business card to become trainees for
his first Then I really started watching them, because why
do you want all these young people or for your
security firm? Why aren't you getting I can really just
tackle somebody. It just didn't add up to me. You
wanted a bunch of children for the security firm?
Speaker 3: And was it mainly women that he was approaching or
was he approaching men as well?
Speaker 6: Like young And I saw him approach like he did
Lorie pal was Keith call.
Speaker 2: Tell us that story? Whatever you remember?
Speaker 6: By the store? Any Selena Brown? He came to talk
to her.
Speaker 2: This is his girlfriend.
Speaker 6: Yes, Selena was his girlfriend at the time. And Ron
looked at Keith exactly how he looked at Laurie. And
I told the girl that was working with me at
the desk, I said, watch this. So when Keith walked off,
he came to the first register, same scenario, and I'll
really watch then when Keith went to leave handed Keith
a card, same spiel of you want to be Koma trainee?
Speaker 2: Now Joyce. How old would Keith have been at this time?
Speaker 6: He was in high school? Sure, he was probably eighty.
Speaker 4: Eight eighty eight.
Speaker 5: Keith turned twenty in March of nineteen eighty eight. His
birthday was March eighth, So if it was before March, this.
Speaker 2: Had to be.
Speaker 6: This had to be eighty seven, eighty sixteen. They were
in high school when they were dating.
Speaker 2: And he was a very handsome kid, very handsome young
man Marshall.
Speaker 6: But yes, he was pretty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would be pretty. That's interesting.
Speaker 6: He was pretty. He looked like the perfect nineteen eighty
he did school movie, the nineteen eighty movie. Yeah, he's
got some Michael J. Fox, exactly like that. So when
he walked into store, everybody's head.
Speaker 2: Turned, women and men.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I was old then. I was nineteen.
Speaker 2: So this story that we've heard about Ron Little and
Liberty Security Slash Advanced Security trying to recruit Keith call
your brother, we weren't sure if that was an urban
legend or actually happened. It did happen.
Speaker 6: Because I said something to you Ron. After Keith left,
Ron came back in on his perch of the corner
of the front desk and I said to him, I said,
another recruit. What did he say? And he just looked
at me and he just walked off, and I just
kept watching him.
Speaker 2: But you sound like the kind of person Kelly that
was calling him out, like Kristin was saying.
Speaker 6: Because I watched him, because he was so cocky. So
Riott never caught anyone stealing, and he didn't do his job.
We even set him up one day. You knew this
lady was going to come in and change prices tags
on items. She was well known for that. We watched
him do it. We said, Okay, he's going to catch on.
So we told him get behind her and tell him
what she did. And she didn't do anything. And when
you would bring up somebody, each price tag had a
different department number. He knew what department the item came from.
Speaker 7: And when you when she didn't know that, when she
would go back in the back and just get off,
wrong department and we're like, wrong department, this.
Speaker 2: Has been changed, and he was. Now, if this woman
was seventeen eighteen, and he'd been right on it, he
probably recruited her.
Speaker 3: Wow, Joyce, did you know did Keith ever tell you
that he had been recruited by Ron Little for Liberty?
Speaker 5: I knew nothing about it until Kelly mentioned it to
me one time.
Speaker 6: I did not they were LRII was friends with him.
Speaker 5: They didn't know each other, because when Laurie disappeared, I
was sitting at the kitchen table talking to Keith. He
was leaning up against the counter and we would always
hang out in the kitchen and talk. The whole community was.
Speaker 4: Just shocked when that happened.
Speaker 5: The whole community we were just like, oh my god,
this young woman, teenager.
Speaker 4: And I said, Keith, did you know Lori?
Speaker 5: And we were talking about it, and he said, yeah,
I did know where we went to school together. I
don't think they hung out. He didn't imply that they
hung out, but he said, yeah, I knew or it
was a nice person. And I don't remember verbatim, but
I remember something so eerie that he said, just in conversation.
I hope nothing like that ever happens to me.
Speaker 1: Oh jeez, wow, I will.
Speaker 5: Never forget it to this day. It does, because a
couple of weeks later, it was gone.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, good night, he was gone. I was
coming home from a bar in Willisburg that night, and
I was with friends, and I was with one girl
that worked at Roses Still and we passed for a
little car and it was the little silver Staytoona kind
of things. Dodge. I'm not sure, but we passed the car.
Speaker 2: Was it part No, it was.
Speaker 6: We passed it and he was heading towards Williamsburg. And
I sent to Roberta Bakara, what is that fool doing
on the park way this time of night going that
way when he lived on six or fourteen at the.
Speaker 2: Time in Gloucester, Gloucester right.
Speaker 6: Behind little suit What time was it one ten one something?
So we didn't Then when we saw the car, I
didn't know it was Keith's car, or we just saw
a car and kept on going. I didn't pay attention,
but I knew. I looked and the doors were open
on the car, and that's all we know. We just
went on. It was the next day Selena called Roberta
and said that Keith didn't come home. So we went
over there to the parkway and we were kids, so
they said go away, kid. But I remember the sheriff
from Gloucester County.
Speaker 2: Over there on the other side of the river in
York County.
Speaker 6: Yes, that was Robin Stonaway, Okay, yes, I couldn't figure
that out.
Speaker 2: What was Sheriff stand Away doing on the other side
of the York River in another county?
Speaker 6: So he recognized us from the search party of Lourie.
We all had to go to the search party for Lourie.
Behind Little Sue is where it started, and Ron Little
was handing out flyers Lourie Palace picture at that time,
and stand Away was there and he recognized us and
he said, you're from the store, because I guess Ron
told him that we all came from the store because
he wanted our help to search for Lourie. It didn't
make sense to be why was he so gung ho
about the search part taking over the search party? Ron Little?
Speaker 2: It is strange.
Speaker 6: How was he hitting this up? And this doesn't make sense.
So I guess she worked for him. I guess he's
gonna look out for her or something. But we didn't
hear either. Everybody walked and then that was over and
we didn't hear anything after that. But then when Keith disappeared,
sheriff shows up in York.
Speaker 2: County on the far side of the York River on
the Colonial Parkway.
Speaker 6: And he said, again, you're here from the store. Yeah,
we're here from the store. Yeah. Because we knew Selena
and we knew she was upset, and nobody knew what
was going on. So we just went over there and
I said, told him I saw that car last night
and I saw I passed Ron Little on the parkway.
He was going to opposite way towards Williamsburg.
Speaker 2: And you said this to Sheriffs stand Away, Yeah.
Speaker 6: And he said, that's interesting, I'll take care of that.
So that's when he, I guess he pulled in Ron
Little for questioning after that. So apparently he was on
the news where stand Away was questioning Ron Little, and
that's when they found he was not a citizen and
called to get him deported or whatever, and that's all
you heard was dropped.
Speaker 2: Before we get into how Ron Little inserted himselves very
strangely into the Colonial Parkway murders investigation. When you referenced
little Sue, can you explain what a little sue is
for someone who's never been to one, and that actually
has been mentioned as a possible place where Lori and
Powell could have been walking towards. But let's talk about
what a little sue is.
Speaker 6: A little sue is the gas station convenience store that
we have now called whatever we have now East Coast
or each state has their own BP station. That was
our Little seven eleven convenient store gas station right store?
Speaker 2: Is Little Sue still around? Do they still have them
turned into seven eleven? So they were probably purchased by
seven eleven. I think most people around the country and
probably around the world know about seven eleven, So Little
Sue was a competitor seven to eleven at that point
and then later folded in. We've heard reference to the
fact that that Little Sioux store was a place where
Ron Little hung out. Do you have any recollects.
Speaker 6: Of because he lived right behind there at the time
with Wendy. I believe, I know he's told us that where.
Speaker 2: He lived, and it was nearby. Just to put a
finer point on that. What you're saying is Ron Little
lived very close to where Lorian Powell went missing. Yes,
and we now know that Lorient Powell was raped and
murdered by Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, our suspect of the
last two years in the Colonial Parkway murders. I never
realized that Ron Little lives so close to where Lorian
Powell went missing. If you had an estimated distance, complete guests,
but your educated guest is better than ours.
Speaker 6: Quarter of a mile, So he lived a quarter.
Speaker 2: Of a mile away from where she was last seen alive.
Speaker 6: Interesting doesn't make sense to me. Why would somebody drive
down that road at random, not know this road from
another county to expect an opportunity to pick someone up.
You're just going to ride down this long back road
and think, oh, I'm going to pick somebody up tonight.
How do you know somebody is going to be walking
down that exactly?
Speaker 2: What was that road like back then?
Speaker 6: It was a back road. It was a windy back road.
They fixed it around you go further down around the
corn that's all new, but it was back then it
was just a back country road of no lights except
for the little houses that were on the main road.
That's the only lighting you had.
Speaker 2: Kristin, just fill us in about what we know happened
with the argument between Chris Cutler, her then boyfriend.
Speaker 3: To the best of our understanding, Laurie and was on
her way to a party with her boyfriend, Chris Cutler.
They had some sort of argument. We do not know
the details of that argument, but Laurie asked to be
let out of Chris's car. Chris did let her out
of the car and continued on without her. But about
forty minutes later, he decided he was going to come
back and pick her up. Maybe he felt bad about
leaving her out in the middle of essentially nowhere, so
when he came back, Lorian was already gone. So somewhere
in that timeframe between when she got out of Chris's
car and when he came back forty minutes later, Wilmer
came along and scooped her up. Either that is the
worst bit of luck in the whole entire world, to
get scooped up by a serial killer in a forty
minute timeframe, or maybe she recognized Wilmer from somewhere, Maybe
she had seen him around in Gloucester. We do know
that he docked his boat at the Gloucester Marina. It's
entirely possible that maybe he had come into the Little
Suit or into the Roses or something along those lines.
It seems to me that's pretty bad luck for you
to end up arguing with your boyfriend, leaving his car,
and within that forty minute timeframe getting scooped up by
a serial killer.
Speaker 2: One of the things we're now trying to figure out
is at this point, we don't think we can make
or this anymore. First of all, as we talked about
at the top of the show, three of the four
currently linked homicide victims in what we're all going to
have to redefine what the Colonial Parkway murders is. But
three of the four of them have a Liberty Security connection.
And now we know that Alan Wade Wilmer is responsible
for those four homicides, and we believe many more. But
the Ron Little connection is very real.
Speaker 3: Especially if you take in the fact that, as Kelly
has told us, Keith was headhunted by Liberty Security, and
we do have a connection to Sandy Haley. Sandy's sister Terry,
was dating Steve Blackman for a short time, who was
also Ron Little's partner in crime, if you will, I'm
thinking metaphorical crime, but.
Speaker 6: Maybe literal crime as well. She was dating Steve Blackman
as well.
Speaker 3: So now you have these people who are definitely linked.
Speaker 6: Wilmer was of course.
Speaker 3: The main suspect in Keith and Sandy's disappearance, And to
extend this just a little bit further, we are pretty
sure that the next person who's going to be linked
to Wilmer. This is an educated guest, but I think
it's a good one We're pretty sure that Brian Pattinger
is going to be LinkedIn next seems like a good possibility.
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
Mindover Murder.
Speaker 3: Does turn out that Brian Pettinger also had a connection
to Liberty Security. When you start to see this many
people linked to one security company, you do start to
wonder where is the intersection between Wilmer and Ron Little.
There has to be someone somewhere. Our question that we're
putting out there to everybody who's listening is do you
know of a connection between Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and
Ron Little? And if so, Lie's make sure that you
turn that information into the Virginia State Police. They do
need to know these things.
Speaker 2: Can you explain that Brian Pettinger Liberty Security connection a
little bit more?
Speaker 3: Brian Pettinger was twenty five years old, He was from
Newport News.
Speaker 6: His body was pulled out of the James River on
February first.
Speaker 3: He did have connections to Liberty Security, as detailed in
this article that we're going to post on our Facebook
page for everybody to take a look.
Speaker 6: At Pettinger was someone who had worked at Liberty.
Speaker 3: Security at the time of Laurian's disappearance, Brian's disappearance, Robin
and David's disappearance, and then Keith call and Sandy Hanley's disappearance.
The Gloucester County Sheriff's office and according to run Little
himself of the FBI started looking into him as the
chief suspect in the disappearance of Laurie, Brian, and Robin.
It is very interesting that we have this one person
who is linked to these many dead bodies. Why do
dead bodies keep popping up around?
Speaker 6: Around Little?
Speaker 2: Can you all tell us a little bit more about
Gloucester Point. This has come up a lot that young
people would hang out at Gloucester Point. Can you explain, Joyce,
what that is and where it is in relation to
these other places that we're talking about.
Speaker 5: Gloucester Point is at the foot of the Coleman Bridge.
It's right across the river from Yorktown.
Speaker 2: And this is the York River.
Speaker 5: It's the York River and it divided by a one
mile bridge called the Coleman Bridge. As teenagers and I
lived in York County then at the time, as teenagers.
We would always come over to Gloucester Point and go
back and forth between Yorktown and Gloucester and hang out
with other teenagers.
Speaker 2: Daytime or nighttime or both nighttime, nighttime even.
Speaker 5: We might go to the beach during the daytime, but
nighttime was for hanging out with the teenagers and drinking
some beer, that type of thing, and it was common,
very calm.
Speaker 2: And then you also would sometimes hang out on the
other side of the York River, both sides and where
would that put you beach and that's pretty close to
the Colonial Parkway.
Speaker 4: On it connects.
Speaker 2: So one of the things we've heard about both Alan
Wade Wilmer Sr. And Ron Little and Kelly has mentioned this.
They have a very strong, almost primal interest in underage girls.
Underage I hesitated to call them women because a fifteen, sixteen,
seventeen year old is not really a woman yet. These
two sleeves bags and I'll call them that. Both had
a real interest in underage girls. Joyce and I were
talking about this morning. If you had an interest in
underage girls and during the day, it sounds like those
girls would be down on these beach fronts in bathing
suits and Kelly, you're nodding your head.
Speaker 6: That's what we did.
Speaker 3: I think it's important to reiterate for everybody who hasn't
been following the case as closely as we all have
with regard to the underaged girls component of this year.
The women that Wilmer has been connected to in connection
with their murder, all of them have been raped. Robin Edwards,
age fourteen, was raped. That's how we got Wilmer's DNA
from her sexual assault kit. Laurie and Powell. This is
a very recent development. We did not know that Laurie
had been raped, but that is also how they got
Wilmer's DNA from her.
Speaker 6: Terry Hall was also raped.
Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to keep in mind
that Wilmer is out there not just as a serial killer,
but as a sexual predator, and he is going after
women who were as young as fourteen. In the case
of Robin Edwards, she did look a little bit older
than her years, but she was still fourteen, and so
there is definitely sexual assault component to this year that
I want to make sure everybody is aware of. When
we had initially started looking at the case as just
four different couples, Robin seemed to be the one off.
We didn't know that Kathy and Becky had been sexually assaulted,
and now we will never know because their rape kits
were destroyed by the FBI. We don't know what happened
to Keith and Sandra because the remains have never been found.
Speaker 6: Daniel and Anna Maria were.
Speaker 3: Too decomposed by the time they were found to be
able to make any definitive responses and research on them.
So we thought Robin was the odd person out. But
now it turns out, no, it is not. Robin is
not the only one who was raped. Now that we've
expanded our definition by two extra victims, we've got three
female victims who were all raped, and I am betting
that there will probably be more.
Speaker 2: Some of it depends on whether or not we have evidence.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and we will probably not find that evidence. Unfortunately,
with regard to Kathy or Becky again, because I think
it bears repeating, the FBI destroyed their rape kits's medical waste,
which you should never.
Speaker 6: Ever do in a murder case.
Speaker 3: It's going to be some cases we don't have answers
in so important I think for everybody to remember Wilmer
was not just a serial killer, he was a sexual predator.
Speaker 2: It almost sounds like Ron Little fits that category as well,
with this very unhealthy interest. It's worth noting that of
the five women that Little had children with, three in
New Zealand, two here in the United States, all of
them were extremely young. He was married to two different
women here in the US. Both of them were extremely young.
Wendy Nutter Little was around eighteen at the time she
married him. The whole thing just seems very unseemly. It's
all coming together in a way that you realize that
there were these uber creeps praying on young people. Our
social media has exploded, and I don't just mean the
Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page or the mind Over Murder
Facebook page. And Joyce also runs a page whatever Happened
to Keith Collin Cassane or Hayley, which is one of
the oldest social media outlets that we are aware of
that have been discussing an unsolved murder case. So kudos
to the Call family for putting that out there. I
don't even know if you remember how many years ago
that was. To my knowledge, the Call family is the
first family in the United States to create a social
media platform to discuss a specific murder case. You're actually
innovators in that way.
Speaker 6: I need help, we need help, right, I was smart.
Speaker 2: Take us back to that time frame, Kelly. How did
people respond when, as Kristen says, bodies are turning up
all over the place. What were the young people that
lived in this area, what were they thinking and feeling?
Speaker 6: I think the main thing everybody was scared to drive
on the parkway. It was the big don't go on
the parkway thing. Don't pull over for anyone someone tries
to pull you over, do not because everybody thought it
was a police officer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea that this could be a law enforce phenomenon.
Speaker 6: That was the big fear of That was the talk.
We didn't have social media, we didn't have cell phones,
so we didn't if anybody communicated. You communicated in the
parking lot when you were hanging out.
Speaker 2: The one thing we were talking about offline before we
started too was in addition to no internet, no cell phones,
people ask us all the time, what shows up in
security camera footage? This is way before nine to eleven.
Most places didn't have security.
Speaker 6: Cameras, have cameras.
Speaker 2: No the only ones I could think of were banks,
and the seven to eleven sometimes had a security camera,
but everywhere else there wasn't worry.
Speaker 6: You couldn't tell what the picture was anyway. If it
was a crime seeing they took fingerprints, that's all you had.
Speaker 2: So here on the Gloucester side of the York River,
did people associate the murders and disappearance with anything that
was happening on this side of the river.
Speaker 6: No, I don't think so, don't think so. The talk was,
when you're hanging out as a teenager in the parking lot,
you don't really talk about that thing that you're talking
about what you're having fun doing the store, when we
were in the break room, we had a little bit
of conversations about this is funny, how come everybody that
works for him is turning up missing. We've had that conversation.
Speaker 2: Really, so people would actually talk about that.
Speaker 6: We did because we watched him. We watched and also
my manager of the store heard. I had a little
conversation in the back room one day and I told
her after Keith disappeared, I would go visit the store
because all my friends worked there, and I'd get off
work go there. And we'd go out to eat or whatever.
And the manager I knew her. We were in the
back room, and I says, this is not there's something
to do with him, with ron littleman, it's something to
do with I watched him and everybody he approached his missing.
The next day, I was she was going to open
a store, believe it was ten, and that was back
in the day where you had a key and you
unlocked the store door right fashion away and getting in
the sword and all the employees went in the same time.
They all went in the back. She walked up front
to the front desk to count the money and her register.
The registers and two other girls were walking up. Whoever
was in the store spent the night in.
Speaker 2: The store, they did every night.
Speaker 6: And came running and she heard gun shot in the
back of the store.
Speaker 8: Inside the store, and she though underneath the front desk,
reached up to grab the phone, and whoever had the
gun shot her fingers.
Speaker 2: Off, Oh my gosh, and ran out the door. Her
fingers were blown off.
Speaker 6: Because she reached up to grab the phone in the
old fashioned frame where you had to dial.
Speaker 2: I know, this sounds like the eighteen eighties, folks, but
it was actually the nineteen eighties phone, so her hand
was very badly damaged. Did she survive?
Speaker 6: Yeah, she survived.
Speaker 2: And who were these people robbing the store?
Speaker 6: They didn't rob the store, They just shot people. They
injured one lady in the back. The other lady dumped
and he kept running towards the front and ran out
the door.
Speaker 2: So if this isn't a robbery, what was it?
Speaker 6: Because she had the register opened counting the money. If
they were going to rob you, they would have taken
the money and ran, but they ran out the store.
Speaker 2: Do we know who these people were? Were they ever caught?
Speaker 6: New proof, new cameras, nothing, And we were told that
who I believed did it? His fingerprints are going to
be around anyway because he works here.
Speaker 2: Wait are you saying Ron Little was one of the shooters?
Speaker 6: I suggested that because of what her and I talked
about the day before, And I said, do you think
he heard us, heard our conversation that we were having
about him?
Speaker 2: And is this the woman who was shot? Yes, I've
never heard this before either.
Speaker 6: I know the sheriff's they brushed it off because how
are we going to prove we don't know who it
is so fingerprints.
Speaker 2: Did we get a look at them? Did they have
masks on?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 6: They said it happened so fast. The girls he came
up from behind them and one was injured, so I
guess she can straight on that. The other lady ran
and hid and Wanda Hansford underneath the desk.
Speaker 2: So to this day we don't know why these was
there more than one. Oh, this is very strange, That's
what I said. A single person who was never identified
shot this woman and injured her terribly, ran out of
the store and it wasn't a robbery.
Speaker 6: I love it.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is really weird. And the Gloucester County Sheriffs
never did much in terms of the investigation.
Speaker 6: If you didn't see anybody, we don't know who it is.
The parking lot didn't have cameras, the store didn't have cameras,
and it's the old fashioned way of dusting for fingerprints,
but that they did that.
Speaker 2: One thing it's worth noting is that Ron Little, allegedly,
because I'm not sure this actually happened, had purchased Liberty
Security from a former Gloucester County deputy, which is always
struck me as very odd that there is actually a
link between Liberty Security and the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department.
I won't name names here, we are certainly aware of
who these people are. That always struck me as exceptionally odd.
So when you talk about the Gloucester County sheriffs who
had a reputation for corruption, and I'm certainly not the
only person to ever say that that they did a
cursory job at best of investigating a shooting in which
someone was seriously injured and could have been killed. How
odd that the Gloucester County Sheriff's departm into such a
lousy job of investigating it.
Speaker 6: Of what happened?
Speaker 2: What do you think we're missing, both of you in
terms of what was going on back then? That people
haven't thought about this shocking shooting. I don't think either
one of us has ever heard this story before.
Speaker 6: Wow, Wow, can you find old reports?
Speaker 2: Good? Question? Certainly might be worth looking into.
Speaker 3: We have a crack team of research assistants who are
pretty good at digging things up, so I think we'll
ask them for their next stop to.
Speaker 6: House.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 6: And also, Ron Little was he loved to do the
ride along with the deputies he wanted to be a
police officer, so that was his goal, and he would
do ride along with the Sheriff's office. And you can't
do that.
Speaker 2: You can do that, and this is all part of
the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department, the very same Looking at
this now through twenty twenty five eyes, is there anything
we haven't talked about today that you think investigators looking
at the case now should be looking.
Speaker 6: At I believe your county did look at that in
twenty eleven.
Speaker 2: When you say that the.
Speaker 6: Case, they did look for files. One of the deputies
came to talk to me from your County Sheriff's office.
I think of his name in a minute. He was
wanting the info. He knew there were files. Stand Away
kept files of the kron Little case in the case,
and they were looking for that. Go get it. So
I knew your County Sheriff's office was interested in looking.
Speaker 2: But Sheriff's stand Away was heading up the Gloucester County
Sheriff's Department York County from the other side of the
river where the Colonial Parkway is located.
Speaker 6: I was working at a beaute shop. The York County
deputy came into the shop to talk to me in
twenty eleven. They said they were reopening the case, going
over things.
Speaker 3: I remember christan choice as we're finishing up, I do
you want to ask you something? I called you two
weeks ago and told you that they had finally solved
Laurian Palell's case and that they had linked Wilmer to
the case. What were your thoughts when I told you, Hey, Joyce,
they saved the Laurian pal case and it was Wilmer,
because you sounded both like surprised but also not quite Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was. I let out a yell or cast oh
my god.
Speaker 5: And then I told you, I said, after I calmed
down a minute, I said, Kristen, I don't know why
I'm so shocked. I'm shocked, but not shocked, not at all.
I was really glad to hear that they got the
DNA results for Wilmer.
Speaker 2: I was, too, but I also have to express my frustration. Look,
Virginia State Police are leading the way in this investigation,
and more power to them. I can't overlook the fact
that it took two and a half years from the
time they announced that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was responsible
for the murders of Robin Edwards, David Nobling and Teresa
Howell in Hampton. Why does it take another two and
a half years If they had Lori and Powell's rape kit,
why didn't they test it two and a half years ago?
Why did it take so long?
Speaker 6: Did we played devil's advocate on that?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: Okay, I think it's entirely possible that it's a matter
of either funding yes for the Zaki grant. It could
also be the fact that Laurie was in the water
for a little bit. The sample could have been degraded
the same way that Robbins was. And I think it
also could have been a backup at the lab. We
don't know how busy DNA Labs International is, so it
could be any one of those things. I don't think
that it's I realized that we can all kind of
get a little conspiratorial about this.
Speaker 6: I don't know that it's that.
Speaker 3: I think it could have been any one of those
three things, or a combination thereof. So that's me playing
Devil's advocate.
Speaker 6: No, but I understand your frustrating.
Speaker 2: No, and I totally accept your point, And it could
be some combination of those three factors, the one thing
I would urge law enforcement, we have got to move
this case forward. Hearing anything from the FBI. Literally nothing
they promised us DNA results in Call Haley and Thomasdowski,
that is updated tests. We used to hear. It seemed
to take forever, but we did hear. And yet this
is an example where the Thomas Dowski Call and Haley
families were promised DNA results over a year ago from
the FBI. We're not hearing anything in terms of the
FBI investigation which involves the Thomas Dowski Call and Haley
families because they happened or are connected to the Colonial Parkway,
which is federal property. The Virginia State Police seem to
be moving forward. I would call on all of these
agencies enough already. You have got to move these cases forward,
and the families deserve answers. We've been waiting for thirty
nine years for answers. Our parents have died waiting for answers.
And the Colonial Parkway murders. I recognize that if we're
talking about offenders like Ron Little or Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
who's linked to four so far, I recognize they're deceased
and no one's ever going to court. But first of all,
they may have had accomplices. That's a likely possibility. Some
of those accomplices may still be alive today. Even failing that,
I think the families have a right to answers. Yes,
in this case they do. Any final thoughts from any
of the three of you.
Speaker 4: I'm just beyond ready for answers.
Speaker 5: It's just been too long, and like you said, Bill,
my parents have passed away.
Speaker 4: My dad worked tirelessly to.
Speaker 5: Get answers in this case, and he went to his
grave along with my mom not knowing. And now it's
my brothers and I and all of y'all. But I
am so frustrated right now with lack of response from
the FBI.
Speaker 4: It's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2: Kelly, any final thoughts.
Speaker 6: I'm ready to get this solved. I want them to
jump on this State Police, FBI whoever they have enough
info to go forward.
Speaker 3: We do urge anyone with information about Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior,
or anyone else that you think may have been involved
with Allan Wade Wilmer Senior to reach out to the
Virginia State Police. You can reach out with tips at
questions qu E S T I O N S at
VSP dot Virginia dot gov. We at this point would
encourage you to go to the VSP rather than the FBI,
because the FBI are doing no things that we can
safely discern, So please go to the VSP. If you
have any information and tips. Please do not send tips
to us because we are not investigators and we can
do no things about it other than send it to
the VSP. But we do urge you if you have
information to please come forward. Take a look at everything
on our Facebook pages, and if you are familiar with
Wilmer or anyone who was associated with Wilmer, please reach out.
It is time for this case to be closed. That
is going to do it for this episode of mind
Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas. Five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder a