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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we.

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Speaker 3: Are broadcasting live from.

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Speaker 2: Joyce Call, Canada's kitchen.

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Speaker 3: Wintone is a little bit different today, folks. You can

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probably hear a little bit of difference in the audio,

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but we are so to be here. That means Bill

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and I are actually broadcasting from the same location, yeah,

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which very rarely.

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Speaker 2: Happened, same physical space. And wait, they're special guests, Special

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Guest number one, would you like to introduce yourself?

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Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Joyce.

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Speaker 5: Called Canada and I'm Keith Call's sister. He was missing

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from the Colonial Parkway in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 2: And sitting in your lap.

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Speaker 4: It's our favorite dog, Nikki. He's so friendly.

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Speaker 2: Nicki's very cute, but sometimes quite assertive. We're hoping that

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devil dog will keep it under control. During the podcast

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Guest number two Special Guest number two.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm Killy Richards. I grew up in Gloucester and

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I worked at the Roses department store in Gloucester for

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a few years back in eighty six. That's when I started. Yeah,

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so I have a little bit of experience in that store.

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Speaker 2: And this is the era of the Colonial Parkway murders

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eighty six to eighty nine. Christen, you had some notes.

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What did you want to tell us?

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Speaker 3: We decided that because we are here in Glocester, in

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the kitchen of Joyce College, Canada, and joined by such

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amazing guests like Kelly, we wanted to revisit the story

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of Ron Little. He is the private investigator who inserted

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himself into the Colonial Parkway murders and has been considered

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by many to be a suspect in this case. In

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light of the recent link of Lorian Powell to Alan

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Wade Wilmer Senior via DNA, we wanted to revisit a

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troubling aspect of this case, which is the linkage of

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Lorian Powell, Robin Edwards and potentially Keith call as well

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to Liberty Security aka Advanced Security, which was owned by

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Ron Little. So we figured it was a good time

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to go ahead and revisit this information so that anybody

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who is not up to date on the case can

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get a little bit up to date on this troubling.

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Speaker 6: Aspect of it.

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Speaker 2: One other aspect of the news about Lorienne Powell's case

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now being linked officially via DNA by the Virginia State

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Police and outstanding work here in this regard. Three of

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the four people who have been linked officially with Alan

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Wade Wilmer sor are victims who also have connections directly

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to Liberty Security, and real important we've all got in

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the habit of saying Liberty Security. Once Ron Little purchased

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the company, he changed the name of the company to

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Advance Security.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 2: D At the end, very important that we not dive

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in here too quickly. Robin Edwards's mother, Bonnie Edwards, worked

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at Liberty Security. Lorienne Powell worked at Liberty Security. Obviously,

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David Nobling was with Robin Edwards, so that pairing and

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they're considered the original Colonial Parkway murders. Those two are linked.

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Lorian Powell is now linked. The only person of the

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four who's been identified, Teresa Howell. We are not aware

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of a connection to Liberty Security, but when three out

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of four victims have a link to this very small

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security company, to Christen's point, we thought we should be

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revisiting Ron Little and a reminder for our listeners. He

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died a couple of years ago in New Zealand after

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a recurrence of cancer. And we'll talk about this more

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as we go. Ron Little's family has now reached out

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to me, his two sons in particular. He has five

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children by five different women in two different countries, three

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in New Zealand and two here in the United States.

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The two sons in particular told me that Ron Little

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told them forty decades that he was involved in a

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series of unsolved murders in Virginia. Not being a career

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criminal like Ron Little was, I still am baffled by

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who the heck says that kind of thing, But it

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is what it is. Let's turn the conversation perhaps to Kelly. Kelly,

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you ran into ron little. You mentioned the Roses department store.

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Tell us, first of all, what's a Roses department store?

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Or what was it like.

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Speaker 6: Little department store we had in Gloucester. He was our

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security guard at the store. He started about eighty six

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is when.

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Speaker 2: He started, which is the start of the Colonial Clark

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Gray murders.

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Speaker 6: We watched him. He was a little bit of a

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shady character, a dressed funny, always had mirrored sunglasses on,

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and we noticed he never caught anyone stealing, but he

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always managed to follow the young girls around the store,

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follow him out creep. I even approached him one evening

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about that. He didn't like for me to ask him question,

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since that's what I did. And then the night of

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Lori Powell, I'll never I'll remember her coming through the doors.

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He's on the corner of the service desk. He watched her.

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Speaker 2: And she was actually a beauty queen. She was a

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very strikingly pretty girl girl.

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Speaker 6: And I watched I said, this is it. And soon

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as she walked by. He was right behind her. When

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she came to the first register, which was right behind me,

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he was behind her and this at the regiment. I'm

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looking and I said, I know she hasn't stolen anything.

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So when she went to go out the door, he

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approached her and handed her a business card and gave

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her the speel of Oh, this would be a great opportunity,

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future job, better than working to McDonald's.

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Speaker 2: And this is he's handing out cards for probably advanced

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security by this point. No, still liberty, Still liberty. Okay,

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he called it liberty.

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Speaker 6: So she became a trainee.

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Speaker 2: And that's how she was recruited to join the staff.

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Then can you describe him? Tell us what he looked like?

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How physically sure?

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Speaker 6: The nineteen eighty little split with a feathered haircut, mirrored sunglasses,

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long leather coat like he's in the cowboy movies.

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Speaker 2: Well color, black, knife.

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Speaker 6: Down in his boot, always had boots on, showed us,

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and always a gun down in his pad.

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Speaker 2: You knew that for a fact. He was counting that.

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Speaker 6: Wow, So he was showing off for you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, was he like did he hit on you? I'm

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sorry that's a little personal, but okay, all right, but

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he was willing.

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Speaker 6: Too, busy chasing another little girl in the store.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, he has a long history.

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Speaker 6: Yes, wife, that's Mette. I believe she was eighteen.

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Speaker 2: She was Wendy Nutter little. Oh so you actually saw

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their first encounter.

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Speaker 6: Making of the romance. Yes, and he had to be

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thirty something then, so we thought that was you because

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he was old to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're when you're eighteen. Yeah, Yes, he had

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long history of being very interested in underage girls. And

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he had married two women in the United States, a

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woman in California whom we've spoken to, and Wendy as well,

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and they're both extremely young.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. The one in California, I actually mistakenly he laid

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his wallet out on the front desks one day and

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I looked. It was a blondheaded lady and a little girl.

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Speaker 4: Who's that?

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Speaker 6: He said, Oh, that was that's my ex wife and

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daughter in California, California. So how did you find Gloucester

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from California?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? What did he say to that question?

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Speaker 6: Looked at me funny, and then he had a badge

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on the other side of the wallet. So where'd you

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get that? He said? That's my bad. I said, you're

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not a police officer, and police officers are metal. That's rubber.

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Did you get it out of a gumball machine? He

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shut the wallet and he walked off and.

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Speaker 2: He just kept looking at it.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: I was nineteen. I was taken him then.

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Speaker 3: Probably hated being called on his bullshit. It was really

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a rubber It was, Oh, my gosh, machine badge.

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Speaker 6: I'm telling you wow.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about Roses. What Roses,

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what was sold there, and et cetera.

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Speaker 6: It's like a it was a smaller version of a

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Walmart at the beginning of a wal Mart that we

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have now, this was the beginning stages of those kind

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of little stores that we had. It had a variety

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of everything we needed. So everyone went to Roses to

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go get clothes whatever.

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Speaker 2: And Roses. They're still in business, and there's one in

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York County.

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Speaker 6: There is one in your county over the bridge where

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we are and your county there is an existing Roses.

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There might be one in Richmond.

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Speaker 2: So what did you do at Roses?

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Speaker 6: I was the service desk, not the manager, but I

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was under the manager of service desk. Is you someone

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returned to you do all the paperworg that kind of

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thing was ever watch it all the cashiers.

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Speaker 2: And were you working there full time or part time

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at that point in time? How often would you see

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Ron Little in the Roses store?

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Speaker 6: Not every day because he also worked at another store

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in Gloucester Courthouse, and I think he actually covered farm

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Fresh grocery store in the same shopping center. So usually

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the weekends he was with us at Roses, and during

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the week he would pop up. We never knew when

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he was going to be there.

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Speaker 2: And he was an independent contractor then, and he was

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in the loss prevention is what they called it back then.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what they called it. But he I don't

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know what he really did besides to walk around and

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look pretty he thought. He thought, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I have a picture of him on an article in

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front of me, and he does not look like he

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does not look like a dream boat. Got this great

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looking sweater that only the nineteen eighties could have produced,

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and really big sunglasses and fluffy hair. It's a yeah,

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this doesn't scream thirty year old dreamboat to me.

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Speaker 6: It definitely screams somebody who.

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Speaker 3: I could see walking around in a fake duster with

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a fake badge, just calling it.

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Speaker 6: Like I said, would you see him?

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Speaker 2: Because he would come to the service desk that was

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a place to the store.

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Speaker 6: He hung out in our break room. If we went

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back into where the storage where all the supplies were, so,

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he would appear there out of nowhere. If I ventured

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out to another store like Ames was another little store

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in the Creuse area of where we live, he would

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pop up out of nowhere there too.

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Speaker 2: And for the benefit of people that don't live locally

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or have never been to an Ames, tell us what

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an Ames store.

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Speaker 6: Smaller version of the Roses. It was just another little

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store beginning of Walmart era.

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Speaker 2: Store, discount store, lots of different mean shoes.

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Speaker 6: Some food items, fishing gear beginning of Walmart five and

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dimes sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, two little stores. We

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went to you.

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Speaker 2: What's the story with Little's interaction with young and pretty women?

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You said he never prevented any thefts that you remembered, No,

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not at all. But what was this pattern of him

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following pretty women around the store?

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Speaker 6: That was his pattern? And I believe he just thought

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he was going to have a lot of girlfriends, I

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really do think. But then when I saw him approaching

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people with his little business card to become trainees for

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his first Then I really started watching them, because why

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do you want all these young people or for your

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security firm? Why aren't you getting I can really just

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tackle somebody. It just didn't add up to me. You

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wanted a bunch of children for the security firm?

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Speaker 3: And was it mainly women that he was approaching or

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was he approaching men as well?

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Speaker 6: Like young And I saw him approach like he did

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Lorie pal was Keith call.

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Speaker 2: Tell us that story? Whatever you remember?

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Speaker 6: By the store? Any Selena Brown? He came to talk

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to her.

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Speaker 2: This is his girlfriend.

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Speaker 6: Yes, Selena was his girlfriend at the time. And Ron

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looked at Keith exactly how he looked at Laurie. And

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I told the girl that was working with me at

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the desk, I said, watch this. So when Keith walked off,

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he came to the first register, same scenario, and I'll

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really watch then when Keith went to leave handed Keith

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a card, same spiel of you want to be Koma trainee?

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Speaker 2: Now Joyce. How old would Keith have been at this time?

255
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Speaker 6: He was in high school? Sure, he was probably eighty.

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Speaker 4: Eight eighty eight.

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Speaker 5: Keith turned twenty in March of nineteen eighty eight. His

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birthday was March eighth, So if it was before March, this.

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Speaker 2: Had to be.

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Speaker 6: This had to be eighty seven, eighty sixteen. They were

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in high school when they were dating.

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Speaker 2: And he was a very handsome kid, very handsome young

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man Marshall.

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Speaker 6: But yes, he was pretty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he would be pretty. That's interesting.

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Speaker 6: He was pretty. He looked like the perfect nineteen eighty

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he did school movie, the nineteen eighty movie. Yeah, he's

268
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got some Michael J. Fox, exactly like that. So when

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he walked into store, everybody's head.

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Speaker 2: Turned, women and men.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And I was old then. I was nineteen.

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Speaker 2: So this story that we've heard about Ron Little and

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Liberty Security Slash Advanced Security trying to recruit Keith call

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your brother, we weren't sure if that was an urban

275
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legend or actually happened. It did happen.

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Speaker 6: Because I said something to you Ron. After Keith left,

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Ron came back in on his perch of the corner

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of the front desk and I said to him, I said,

279
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another recruit. What did he say? And he just looked

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at me and he just walked off, and I just

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kept watching him.

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Speaker 2: But you sound like the kind of person Kelly that

283
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:37,600
was calling him out, like Kristin was saying.

284
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Speaker 6: Because I watched him, because he was so cocky. So

285
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Riott never caught anyone stealing, and he didn't do his job.

286
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We even set him up one day. You knew this

287
00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:51,399
lady was going to come in and change prices tags

288
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on items. She was well known for that. We watched

289
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,960
him do it. We said, Okay, he's going to catch on.

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So we told him get behind her and tell him

291
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what she did. And she didn't do anything. And when

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you would bring up somebody, each price tag had a

293
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,519
different department number. He knew what department the item came from.

294
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Speaker 7: And when you when she didn't know that, when she

295
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:20,559
would go back in the back and just get off,

296
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wrong department and we're like, wrong department, this.

297
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Speaker 2: Has been changed, and he was. Now, if this woman

298
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,799
was seventeen eighteen, and he'd been right on it, he

299
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probably recruited her.

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Speaker 3: Wow, Joyce, did you know did Keith ever tell you

301
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,600
that he had been recruited by Ron Little for Liberty?

302
00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 5: I knew nothing about it until Kelly mentioned it to

303
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:44,440
me one time.

304
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Speaker 6: I did not they were LRII was friends with him.

305
00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 5: They didn't know each other, because when Laurie disappeared, I

306
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,080
was sitting at the kitchen table talking to Keith. He

307
00:16:56,159 --> 00:16:58,799
was leaning up against the counter and we would always

308
00:16:58,879 --> 00:17:01,960
hang out in the kitchen and talk. The whole community was.

309
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Speaker 4: Just shocked when that happened.

310
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Speaker 5: The whole community we were just like, oh my god,

311
00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:07,680
this young woman, teenager.

312
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Speaker 4: And I said, Keith, did you know Lori?

313
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Speaker 5: And we were talking about it, and he said, yeah,

314
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,000
I did know where we went to school together. I

315
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000
don't think they hung out. He didn't imply that they

316
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hung out, but he said, yeah, I knew or it

317
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,279
was a nice person. And I don't remember verbatim, but

318
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,880
I remember something so eerie that he said, just in conversation.

319
00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:27,960
I hope nothing like that ever happens to me.

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Speaker 1: Oh jeez, wow, I will.

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Speaker 5: Never forget it to this day. It does, because a

322
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:37,920
couple of weeks later, it was gone.

323
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,119
Speaker 6: Oh my god, good night, he was gone. I was

324
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,359
coming home from a bar in Willisburg that night, and

325
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,440
I was with friends, and I was with one girl

326
00:17:46,519 --> 00:17:49,319
that worked at Roses Still and we passed for a

327
00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:54,119
little car and it was the little silver Staytoona kind

328
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,160
of things. Dodge. I'm not sure, but we passed the car.

329
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,319
Speaker 2: Was it part No, it was.

330
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,319
Speaker 6: We passed it and he was heading towards Williamsburg. And

331
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,400
I sent to Roberta Bakara, what is that fool doing

332
00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:10,200
on the park way this time of night going that

333
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,519
way when he lived on six or fourteen at the.

334
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 2: Time in Gloucester, Gloucester right.

335
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:20,039
Speaker 6: Behind little suit What time was it one ten one something?

336
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,279
So we didn't Then when we saw the car, I

337
00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:25,680
didn't know it was Keith's car, or we just saw

338
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,920
a car and kept on going. I didn't pay attention,

339
00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:31,759
but I knew. I looked and the doors were open

340
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,079
on the car, and that's all we know. We just

341
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,599
went on. It was the next day Selena called Roberta

342
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,640
and said that Keith didn't come home. So we went

343
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000
over there to the parkway and we were kids, so

344
00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:50,400
they said go away, kid. But I remember the sheriff

345
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,240
from Gloucester County.

346
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Speaker 2: Over there on the other side of the river in

347
00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:56,039
York County.

348
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 6: Yes, that was Robin Stonaway, Okay, yes, I couldn't figure

349
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:00,200
that out.

350
00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 2: What was Sheriff stand Away doing on the other side

351
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,599
of the York River in another county?

352
00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 6: So he recognized us from the search party of Lourie.

353
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We all had to go to the search party for Lourie.

354
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,319
Behind Little Sue is where it started, and Ron Little

355
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,759
was handing out flyers Lourie Palace picture at that time,

356
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,160
and stand Away was there and he recognized us and

357
00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:25,160
he said, you're from the store, because I guess Ron

358
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,279
told him that we all came from the store because

359
00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:30,839
he wanted our help to search for Lourie. It didn't

360
00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:33,359
make sense to be why was he so gung ho

361
00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:36,960
about the search part taking over the search party? Ron Little?

362
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 2: It is strange.

363
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 6: How was he hitting this up? And this doesn't make sense.

364
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:43,119
So I guess she worked for him. I guess he's

365
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,599
gonna look out for her or something. But we didn't

366
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,720
hear either. Everybody walked and then that was over and

367
00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:53,599
we didn't hear anything after that. But then when Keith disappeared,

368
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:55,519
sheriff shows up in York.

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00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 2: County on the far side of the York River on

370
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the Colonial Parkway.

371
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,839
Speaker 6: And he said, again, you're here from the store. Yeah,

372
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,960
we're here from the store. Yeah. Because we knew Selena

373
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,759
and we knew she was upset, and nobody knew what

374
00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:14,079
was going on. So we just went over there and

375
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I said, told him I saw that car last night

376
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,079
and I saw I passed Ron Little on the parkway.

377
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,839
He was going to opposite way towards Williamsburg.

378
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,559
Speaker 2: And you said this to Sheriffs stand Away, Yeah.

379
00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 6: And he said, that's interesting, I'll take care of that.

380
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:31,440
So that's when he, I guess he pulled in Ron

381
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,599
Little for questioning after that. So apparently he was on

382
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,039
the news where stand Away was questioning Ron Little, and

383
00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:42,559
that's when they found he was not a citizen and

384
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,359
called to get him deported or whatever, and that's all

385
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:48,440
you heard was dropped.

386
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,599
Speaker 2: Before we get into how Ron Little inserted himselves very

387
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,079
strangely into the Colonial Parkway murders investigation. When you referenced

388
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,319
little Sue, can you explain what a little sue is

389
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,160
for someone who's never been to one, and that actually

390
00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:09,519
has been mentioned as a possible place where Lori and

391
00:21:09,599 --> 00:21:12,839
Powell could have been walking towards. But let's talk about

392
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,119
what a little sue is.

393
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,759
Speaker 6: A little sue is the gas station convenience store that

394
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:23,000
we have now called whatever we have now East Coast

395
00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:27,160
or each state has their own BP station. That was

396
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,480
our Little seven eleven convenient store gas station right store?

397
00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:34,799
Speaker 2: Is Little Sue still around? Do they still have them

398
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,680
turned into seven eleven? So they were probably purchased by

399
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,359
seven eleven. I think most people around the country and

400
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,400
probably around the world know about seven eleven, So Little

401
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,079
Sue was a competitor seven to eleven at that point

402
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,880
and then later folded in. We've heard reference to the

403
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,480
fact that that Little Sioux store was a place where

404
00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,480
Ron Little hung out. Do you have any recollects.

405
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 6: Of because he lived right behind there at the time

406
00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:07,160
with Wendy. I believe, I know he's told us that where.

407
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: He lived, and it was nearby. Just to put a

408
00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:14,720
finer point on that. What you're saying is Ron Little

409
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:19,119
lived very close to where Lorian Powell went missing. Yes,

410
00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:22,440
and we now know that Lorient Powell was raped and

411
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:27,039
murdered by Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, our suspect of the

412
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,640
last two years in the Colonial Parkway murders. I never

413
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,440
realized that Ron Little lives so close to where Lorian

414
00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:40,160
Powell went missing. If you had an estimated distance, complete guests,

415
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,200
but your educated guest is better than ours.

416
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 6: Quarter of a mile, So he lived a quarter.

417
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,319
Speaker 2: Of a mile away from where she was last seen alive.

418
00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:55,279
Speaker 6: Interesting doesn't make sense to me. Why would somebody drive

419
00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:58,599
down that road at random, not know this road from

420
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,000
another county to expect an opportunity to pick someone up.

421
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,759
You're just going to ride down this long back road

422
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,359
and think, oh, I'm going to pick somebody up tonight.

423
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,640
How do you know somebody is going to be walking

424
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,759
down that exactly?

425
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 2: What was that road like back then?

426
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 6: It was a back road. It was a windy back road.

427
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,759
They fixed it around you go further down around the

428
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:23,000
corn that's all new, but it was back then it

429
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:27,599
was just a back country road of no lights except

430
00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:30,240
for the little houses that were on the main road.

431
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,880
That's the only lighting you had.

432
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: Kristin, just fill us in about what we know happened

433
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,440
with the argument between Chris Cutler, her then boyfriend.

434
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,839
Speaker 3: To the best of our understanding, Laurie and was on

435
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,160
her way to a party with her boyfriend, Chris Cutler.

436
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,039
They had some sort of argument. We do not know

437
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,559
the details of that argument, but Laurie asked to be

438
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,559
let out of Chris's car. Chris did let her out

439
00:23:56,559 --> 00:23:59,799
of the car and continued on without her. But about

440
00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:02,279
forty minutes later, he decided he was going to come

441
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:04,440
back and pick her up. Maybe he felt bad about

442
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:07,720
leaving her out in the middle of essentially nowhere, so

443
00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,279
when he came back, Lorian was already gone. So somewhere

444
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:14,359
in that timeframe between when she got out of Chris's

445
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,599
car and when he came back forty minutes later, Wilmer

446
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,599
came along and scooped her up. Either that is the

447
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,640
worst bit of luck in the whole entire world, to

448
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,319
get scooped up by a serial killer in a forty

449
00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:32,079
minute timeframe, or maybe she recognized Wilmer from somewhere, Maybe

450
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,240
she had seen him around in Gloucester. We do know

451
00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:37,799
that he docked his boat at the Gloucester Marina. It's

452
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,839
entirely possible that maybe he had come into the Little

453
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:44,000
Suit or into the Roses or something along those lines.

454
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,480
It seems to me that's pretty bad luck for you

455
00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:50,880
to end up arguing with your boyfriend, leaving his car,

456
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,640
and within that forty minute timeframe getting scooped up by

457
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,759
a serial killer.

458
00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: One of the things we're now trying to figure out

459
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,839
is at this point, we don't think we can make

460
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,000
or this anymore. First of all, as we talked about

461
00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:05,400
at the top of the show, three of the four

462
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,200
currently linked homicide victims in what we're all going to

463
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,559
have to redefine what the Colonial Parkway murders is. But

464
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,119
three of the four of them have a Liberty Security connection.

465
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,160
And now we know that Alan Wade Wilmer is responsible

466
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,759
for those four homicides, and we believe many more. But

467
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:29,559
the Ron Little connection is very real.

468
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 3: Especially if you take in the fact that, as Kelly

469
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,400
has told us, Keith was headhunted by Liberty Security, and

470
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,319
we do have a connection to Sandy Haley. Sandy's sister Terry,

471
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,480
was dating Steve Blackman for a short time, who was

472
00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:48,400
also Ron Little's partner in crime, if you will, I'm

473
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,160
thinking metaphorical crime, but.

474
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 6: Maybe literal crime as well. She was dating Steve Blackman

475
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:53,480
as well.

476
00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:57,519
Speaker 3: So now you have these people who are definitely linked.

477
00:25:57,799 --> 00:25:59,079
Speaker 6: Wilmer was of course.

478
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,319
Speaker 3: The main suspect in Keith and Sandy's disappearance, And to

479
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,920
extend this just a little bit further, we are pretty

480
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,559
sure that the next person who's going to be linked

481
00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:12,720
to Wilmer. This is an educated guest, but I think

482
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240
it's a good one We're pretty sure that Brian Pattinger

483
00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:18,559
is going to be LinkedIn next seems like a good possibility.

484
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll be right back

485
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:30,200
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

486
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,160
Mindover Murder.

487
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: Does turn out that Brian Pettinger also had a connection

488
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:39,960
to Liberty Security. When you start to see this many

489
00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:44,920
people linked to one security company, you do start to

490
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,799
wonder where is the intersection between Wilmer and Ron Little.

491
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,079
There has to be someone somewhere. Our question that we're

492
00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:55,279
putting out there to everybody who's listening is do you

493
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,200
know of a connection between Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and

494
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:00,799
Ron Little? And if so, Lie's make sure that you

495
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,680
turn that information into the Virginia State Police. They do

496
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:04,720
need to know these things.

497
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: Can you explain that Brian Pettinger Liberty Security connection a

498
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:09,920
little bit more?

499
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,799
Speaker 3: Brian Pettinger was twenty five years old, He was from

500
00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:15,440
Newport News.

501
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:17,519
Speaker 6: His body was pulled out of the James River on

502
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:18,599
February first.

503
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:24,079
Speaker 3: He did have connections to Liberty Security, as detailed in

504
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,839
this article that we're going to post on our Facebook

505
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,799
page for everybody to take a look.

506
00:27:28,839 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 6: At Pettinger was someone who had worked at Liberty.

507
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: Security at the time of Laurian's disappearance, Brian's disappearance, Robin

508
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,440
and David's disappearance, and then Keith call and Sandy Hanley's disappearance.

509
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:46,799
The Gloucester County Sheriff's office and according to run Little

510
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,920
himself of the FBI started looking into him as the

511
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,000
chief suspect in the disappearance of Laurie, Brian, and Robin.

512
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,480
It is very interesting that we have this one person

513
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,319
who is linked to these many dead bodies. Why do

514
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,839
dead bodies keep popping up around?

515
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 6: Around Little?

516
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: Can you all tell us a little bit more about

517
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,160
Gloucester Point. This has come up a lot that young

518
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,680
people would hang out at Gloucester Point. Can you explain, Joyce,

519
00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:20,359
what that is and where it is in relation to

520
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,640
these other places that we're talking about.

521
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,279
Speaker 5: Gloucester Point is at the foot of the Coleman Bridge.

522
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,160
It's right across the river from Yorktown.

523
00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:32,039
Speaker 2: And this is the York River.

524
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,279
Speaker 5: It's the York River and it divided by a one

525
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,440
mile bridge called the Coleman Bridge. As teenagers and I

526
00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:42,880
lived in York County then at the time, as teenagers.

527
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,759
We would always come over to Gloucester Point and go

528
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,960
back and forth between Yorktown and Gloucester and hang out

529
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,640
with other teenagers.

530
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: Daytime or nighttime or both nighttime, nighttime even.

531
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,119
Speaker 5: We might go to the beach during the daytime, but

532
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,319
nighttime was for hanging out with the teenagers and drinking

533
00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:02,200
some beer, that type of thing, and it was common,

534
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,279
very calm.

535
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,839
Speaker 2: And then you also would sometimes hang out on the

536
00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:08,880
other side of the York River, both sides and where

537
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,480
would that put you beach and that's pretty close to

538
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,079
the Colonial Parkway.

539
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 4: On it connects.

540
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: So one of the things we've heard about both Alan

541
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,880
Wade Wilmer Sr. And Ron Little and Kelly has mentioned this.

542
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:29,039
They have a very strong, almost primal interest in underage girls.

543
00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:32,839
Underage I hesitated to call them women because a fifteen, sixteen,

544
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,640
seventeen year old is not really a woman yet. These

545
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,920
two sleeves bags and I'll call them that. Both had

546
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,559
a real interest in underage girls. Joyce and I were

547
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:46,599
talking about this morning. If you had an interest in

548
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,799
underage girls and during the day, it sounds like those

549
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:53,559
girls would be down on these beach fronts in bathing

550
00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:58,039
suits and Kelly, you're nodding your head.

551
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:01,039
Speaker 6: That's what we did.

552
00:30:01,799 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: I think it's important to reiterate for everybody who hasn't

553
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,079
been following the case as closely as we all have

554
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,119
with regard to the underaged girls component of this year.

555
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,839
The women that Wilmer has been connected to in connection

556
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,400
with their murder, all of them have been raped. Robin Edwards,

557
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,200
age fourteen, was raped. That's how we got Wilmer's DNA

558
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:26,440
from her sexual assault kit. Laurie and Powell. This is

559
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,160
a very recent development. We did not know that Laurie

560
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,240
had been raped, but that is also how they got

561
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,400
Wilmer's DNA from her.

562
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:34,759
Speaker 6: Terry Hall was also raped.

563
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,599
Speaker 3: So I think it's really important to keep in mind

564
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,839
that Wilmer is out there not just as a serial killer,

565
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:43,920
but as a sexual predator, and he is going after

566
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,920
women who were as young as fourteen. In the case

567
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,359
of Robin Edwards, she did look a little bit older

568
00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:52,119
than her years, but she was still fourteen, and so

569
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,039
there is definitely sexual assault component to this year that

570
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,839
I want to make sure everybody is aware of. When

571
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,920
we had initially started looking at the case as just

572
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,359
four different couples, Robin seemed to be the one off.

573
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:09,480
We didn't know that Kathy and Becky had been sexually assaulted,

574
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:11,480
and now we will never know because their rape kits

575
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:15,039
were destroyed by the FBI. We don't know what happened

576
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,799
to Keith and Sandra because the remains have never been found.

577
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 6: Daniel and Anna Maria were.

578
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: Too decomposed by the time they were found to be

579
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720
able to make any definitive responses and research on them.

580
00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:28,960
So we thought Robin was the odd person out. But

581
00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:31,680
now it turns out, no, it is not. Robin is

582
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,920
not the only one who was raped. Now that we've

583
00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:38,119
expanded our definition by two extra victims, we've got three

584
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,920
female victims who were all raped, and I am betting

585
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:42,880
that there will probably be more.

586
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,559
Speaker 2: Some of it depends on whether or not we have evidence.

587
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,319
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and we will probably not find that evidence. Unfortunately,

588
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:54,039
with regard to Kathy or Becky again, because I think

589
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:57,279
it bears repeating, the FBI destroyed their rape kits's medical waste,

590
00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:58,279
which you should never.

591
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 6: Ever do in a murder case.

592
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: It's going to be some cases we don't have answers

593
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,839
in so important I think for everybody to remember Wilmer

594
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,200
was not just a serial killer, he was a sexual predator.

595
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,519
Speaker 2: It almost sounds like Ron Little fits that category as well,

596
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:16,640
with this very unhealthy interest. It's worth noting that of

597
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,160
the five women that Little had children with, three in

598
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,599
New Zealand, two here in the United States, all of

599
00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:27,839
them were extremely young. He was married to two different

600
00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:31,720
women here in the US. Both of them were extremely young.

601
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,240
Wendy Nutter Little was around eighteen at the time she

602
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,799
married him. The whole thing just seems very unseemly. It's

603
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:43,240
all coming together in a way that you realize that

604
00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:47,880
there were these uber creeps praying on young people. Our

605
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,839
social media has exploded, and I don't just mean the

606
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:54,920
Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page or the mind Over Murder

607
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,880
Facebook page. And Joyce also runs a page whatever Happened

608
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,200
to Keith Collin Cassane or Hayley, which is one of

609
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,920
the oldest social media outlets that we are aware of

610
00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:08,720
that have been discussing an unsolved murder case. So kudos

611
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:12,200
to the Call family for putting that out there. I

612
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,119
don't even know if you remember how many years ago

613
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,839
that was. To my knowledge, the Call family is the

614
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,079
first family in the United States to create a social

615
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,319
media platform to discuss a specific murder case. You're actually

616
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,839
innovators in that way.

617
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:35,519
Speaker 6: I need help, we need help, right, I was smart.

618
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: Take us back to that time frame, Kelly. How did

619
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,240
people respond when, as Kristen says, bodies are turning up

620
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:46,480
all over the place. What were the young people that

621
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,319
lived in this area, what were they thinking and feeling?

622
00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 6: I think the main thing everybody was scared to drive

623
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:56,799
on the parkway. It was the big don't go on

624
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,599
the parkway thing. Don't pull over for anyone someone tries

625
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:02,880
to pull you over, do not because everybody thought it

626
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:03,759
was a police officer.

627
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea that this could be a law enforce phenomenon.

628
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,639
Speaker 6: That was the big fear of That was the talk.

629
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,480
We didn't have social media, we didn't have cell phones,

630
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:16,159
so we didn't if anybody communicated. You communicated in the

631
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:17,480
parking lot when you were hanging out.

632
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 2: The one thing we were talking about offline before we

633
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,960
started too was in addition to no internet, no cell phones,

634
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:27,599
people ask us all the time, what shows up in

635
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,119
security camera footage? This is way before nine to eleven.

636
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:33,920
Most places didn't have security.

637
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,679
Speaker 6: Cameras, have cameras.

638
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: No the only ones I could think of were banks,

639
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,840
and the seven to eleven sometimes had a security camera,

640
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,480
but everywhere else there wasn't worry.

641
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 6: You couldn't tell what the picture was anyway. If it

642
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,000
was a crime seeing they took fingerprints, that's all you had.

643
00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 2: So here on the Gloucester side of the York River,

644
00:34:56,519 --> 00:35:02,079
did people associate the murders and disappearance with anything that

645
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,519
was happening on this side of the river.

646
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 6: No, I don't think so, don't think so. The talk was,

647
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,119
when you're hanging out as a teenager in the parking lot,

648
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,559
you don't really talk about that thing that you're talking

649
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:17,639
about what you're having fun doing the store, when we

650
00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:19,559
were in the break room, we had a little bit

651
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:23,480
of conversations about this is funny, how come everybody that

652
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,079
works for him is turning up missing. We've had that conversation.

653
00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: Really, so people would actually talk about that.

654
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,599
Speaker 6: We did because we watched him. We watched and also

655
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,199
my manager of the store heard. I had a little

656
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,599
conversation in the back room one day and I told

657
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:42,440
her after Keith disappeared, I would go visit the store

658
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,679
because all my friends worked there, and I'd get off

659
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,320
work go there. And we'd go out to eat or whatever.

660
00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:50,159
And the manager I knew her. We were in the

661
00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:53,119
back room, and I says, this is not there's something

662
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,000
to do with him, with ron littleman, it's something to

663
00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:59,760
do with I watched him and everybody he approached his missing.

664
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,039
The next day, I was she was going to open

665
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:06,039
a store, believe it was ten, and that was back

666
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:07,559
in the day where you had a key and you

667
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,880
unlocked the store door right fashion away and getting in

668
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,119
the sword and all the employees went in the same time.

669
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,679
They all went in the back. She walked up front

670
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,159
to the front desk to count the money and her register.

671
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,880
The registers and two other girls were walking up. Whoever

672
00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:26,280
was in the store spent the night in.

673
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,159
Speaker 2: The store, they did every night.

674
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 6: And came running and she heard gun shot in the

675
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,320
back of the store.

676
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,559
Speaker 8: Inside the store, and she though underneath the front desk,

677
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,280
reached up to grab the phone, and whoever had the

678
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,800
gun shot her fingers.

679
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: Off, Oh my gosh, and ran out the door. Her

680
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,079
fingers were blown off.

681
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 6: Because she reached up to grab the phone in the

682
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,719
old fashioned frame where you had to dial.

683
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,519
Speaker 2: I know, this sounds like the eighteen eighties, folks, but

684
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:05,719
it was actually the nineteen eighties phone, so her hand

685
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,119
was very badly damaged. Did she survive?

686
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, she survived.

687
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:12,599
Speaker 2: And who were these people robbing the store?

688
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 6: They didn't rob the store, They just shot people. They

689
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,519
injured one lady in the back. The other lady dumped

690
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,440
and he kept running towards the front and ran out

691
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:23,760
the door.

692
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,159
Speaker 2: So if this isn't a robbery, what was it?

693
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,679
Speaker 6: Because she had the register opened counting the money. If

694
00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:31,320
they were going to rob you, they would have taken

695
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,320
the money and ran, but they ran out the store.

696
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: Do we know who these people were? Were they ever caught?

697
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,679
Speaker 6: New proof, new cameras, nothing, And we were told that

698
00:37:42,119 --> 00:37:44,920
who I believed did it? His fingerprints are going to

699
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,039
be around anyway because he works here.

700
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,599
Speaker 2: Wait are you saying Ron Little was one of the shooters?

701
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,159
Speaker 6: I suggested that because of what her and I talked

702
00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:56,360
about the day before, And I said, do you think

703
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:02,199
he heard us, heard our conversation that we were having

704
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:02,840
about him?

705
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: And is this the woman who was shot? Yes, I've

706
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,079
never heard this before either.

707
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:11,159
Speaker 6: I know the sheriff's they brushed it off because how

708
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:13,119
are we going to prove we don't know who it

709
00:38:13,159 --> 00:38:14,760
is so fingerprints.

710
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:16,639
Speaker 2: Did we get a look at them? Did they have

711
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:17,440
masks on?

712
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: No?

713
00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 6: They said it happened so fast. The girls he came

714
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,440
up from behind them and one was injured, so I

715
00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:27,480
guess she can straight on that. The other lady ran

716
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,639
and hid and Wanda Hansford underneath the desk.

717
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 2: So to this day we don't know why these was

718
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,559
there more than one. Oh, this is very strange, That's

719
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,480
what I said. A single person who was never identified

720
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,760
shot this woman and injured her terribly, ran out of

721
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,800
the store and it wasn't a robbery.

722
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 6: I love it.

723
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: Wow, this is really weird. And the Gloucester County Sheriffs

724
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,440
never did much in terms of the investigation.

725
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 6: If you didn't see anybody, we don't know who it is.

726
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:05,320
The parking lot didn't have cameras, the store didn't have cameras,

727
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,119
and it's the old fashioned way of dusting for fingerprints,

728
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,079
but that they did that.

729
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,519
Speaker 2: One thing it's worth noting is that Ron Little, allegedly,

730
00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:21,280
because I'm not sure this actually happened, had purchased Liberty

731
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,960
Security from a former Gloucester County deputy, which is always

732
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,039
struck me as very odd that there is actually a

733
00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:34,480
link between Liberty Security and the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department.

734
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,519
I won't name names here, we are certainly aware of

735
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:42,320
who these people are. That always struck me as exceptionally odd.

736
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,239
So when you talk about the Gloucester County sheriffs who

737
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,119
had a reputation for corruption, and I'm certainly not the

738
00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:50,599
only person to ever say that that they did a

739
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:55,039
cursory job at best of investigating a shooting in which

740
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:58,119
someone was seriously injured and could have been killed. How

741
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,840
odd that the Gloucester County Sheriff's departm into such a

742
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,559
lousy job of investigating it.

743
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 6: Of what happened?

744
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: What do you think we're missing, both of you in

745
00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:11,800
terms of what was going on back then? That people

746
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,480
haven't thought about this shocking shooting. I don't think either

747
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:17,320
one of us has ever heard this story before.

748
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 6: Wow, Wow, can you find old reports?

749
00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:24,679
Speaker 2: Good? Question? Certainly might be worth looking into.

750
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 3: We have a crack team of research assistants who are

751
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,239
pretty good at digging things up, so I think we'll

752
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,320
ask them for their next stop to.

753
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 6: House.

754
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so.

755
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 6: And also, Ron Little was he loved to do the

756
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,880
ride along with the deputies he wanted to be a

757
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,719
police officer, so that was his goal, and he would

758
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,559
do ride along with the Sheriff's office. And you can't

759
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:49,960
do that.

760
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 2: You can do that, and this is all part of

761
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,360
the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department, the very same Looking at

762
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,960
this now through twenty twenty five eyes, is there anything

763
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:03,920
we haven't talked about today that you think investigators looking

764
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,719
at the case now should be looking.

765
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 6: At I believe your county did look at that in

766
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,239
twenty eleven.

767
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: When you say that the.

768
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 6: Case, they did look for files. One of the deputies

769
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:20,199
came to talk to me from your County Sheriff's office.

770
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,639
I think of his name in a minute. He was

771
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,480
wanting the info. He knew there were files. Stand Away

772
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,920
kept files of the kron Little case in the case,

773
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:32,840
and they were looking for that. Go get it. So

774
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,440
I knew your County Sheriff's office was interested in looking.

775
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,679
Speaker 2: But Sheriff's stand Away was heading up the Gloucester County

776
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,639
Sheriff's Department York County from the other side of the

777
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,840
river where the Colonial Parkway is located.

778
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 6: I was working at a beaute shop. The York County

779
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,960
deputy came into the shop to talk to me in

780
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,800
twenty eleven. They said they were reopening the case, going

781
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:54,559
over things.

782
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 3: I remember christan choice as we're finishing up, I do

783
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,960
you want to ask you something? I called you two

784
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,800
weeks ago and told you that they had finally solved

785
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,239
Laurian Palell's case and that they had linked Wilmer to

786
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:13,480
the case. What were your thoughts when I told you, Hey, Joyce,

787
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,840
they saved the Laurian pal case and it was Wilmer,

788
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:20,639
because you sounded both like surprised but also not quite Yeah.

789
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 4: I was. I let out a yell or cast oh

790
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:25,800
my god.

791
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,119
Speaker 5: And then I told you, I said, after I calmed

792
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:31,159
down a minute, I said, Kristen, I don't know why

793
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,599
I'm so shocked. I'm shocked, but not shocked, not at all.

794
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:38,320
I was really glad to hear that they got the

795
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,920
DNA results for Wilmer.

796
00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:44,039
Speaker 2: I was, too, but I also have to express my frustration. Look,

797
00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:47,519
Virginia State Police are leading the way in this investigation,

798
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,800
and more power to them. I can't overlook the fact

799
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,440
that it took two and a half years from the

800
00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:57,519
time they announced that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was responsible

801
00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:01,519
for the murders of Robin Edwards, David Nobling and Teresa

802
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:04,960
Howell in Hampton. Why does it take another two and

803
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,679
a half years If they had Lori and Powell's rape kit,

804
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,320
why didn't they test it two and a half years ago?

805
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:12,760
Why did it take so long?

806
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 6: Did we played devil's advocate on that?

807
00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: Okay?

808
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I think it's entirely possible that it's a matter

809
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:21,880
of either funding yes for the Zaki grant. It could

810
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,159
also be the fact that Laurie was in the water

811
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,360
for a little bit. The sample could have been degraded

812
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,360
the same way that Robbins was. And I think it

813
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,079
also could have been a backup at the lab. We

814
00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:33,519
don't know how busy DNA Labs International is, so it

815
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,000
could be any one of those things. I don't think

816
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:38,480
that it's I realized that we can all kind of

817
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:40,480
get a little conspiratorial about this.

818
00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 6: I don't know that it's that.

819
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: I think it could have been any one of those

820
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,599
three things, or a combination thereof. So that's me playing

821
00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:47,400
Devil's advocate.

822
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:49,559
Speaker 6: No, but I understand your frustrating.

823
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 2: No, and I totally accept your point, And it could

824
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,360
be some combination of those three factors, the one thing

825
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,239
I would urge law enforcement, we have got to move

826
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,880
this case forward. Hearing anything from the FBI. Literally nothing

827
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,719
they promised us DNA results in Call Haley and Thomasdowski,

828
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,559
that is updated tests. We used to hear. It seemed

829
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:15,400
to take forever, but we did hear. And yet this

830
00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:19,360
is an example where the Thomas Dowski Call and Haley

831
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,199
families were promised DNA results over a year ago from

832
00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:27,119
the FBI. We're not hearing anything in terms of the

833
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,880
FBI investigation which involves the Thomas Dowski Call and Haley

834
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,119
families because they happened or are connected to the Colonial Parkway,

835
00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:39,320
which is federal property. The Virginia State Police seem to

836
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,400
be moving forward. I would call on all of these

837
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,239
agencies enough already. You have got to move these cases forward,

838
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,639
and the families deserve answers. We've been waiting for thirty

839
00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:58,039
nine years for answers. Our parents have died waiting for answers.

840
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:01,119
And the Colonial Parkway murders. I recognize that if we're

841
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:05,719
talking about offenders like Ron Little or Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,

842
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,519
who's linked to four so far, I recognize they're deceased

843
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:12,039
and no one's ever going to court. But first of all,

844
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:16,239
they may have had accomplices. That's a likely possibility. Some

845
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,280
of those accomplices may still be alive today. Even failing that,

846
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,360
I think the families have a right to answers. Yes,

847
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,360
in this case they do. Any final thoughts from any

848
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,039
of the three of you.

849
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,079
Speaker 4: I'm just beyond ready for answers.

850
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 5: It's just been too long, and like you said, Bill,

851
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:35,559
my parents have passed away.

852
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 4: My dad worked tirelessly to.

853
00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:40,679
Speaker 5: Get answers in this case, and he went to his

854
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,360
grave along with my mom not knowing. And now it's

855
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,199
my brothers and I and all of y'all. But I

856
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,840
am so frustrated right now with lack of response from

857
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:51,400
the FBI.

858
00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:54,159
Speaker 4: It's just unbelievable.

859
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,639
Speaker 2: Kelly, any final thoughts.

860
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 6: I'm ready to get this solved. I want them to

861
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,360
jump on this State Police, FBI whoever they have enough

862
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:08,880
info to go forward.

863
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 3: We do urge anyone with information about Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior,

864
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:16,039
or anyone else that you think may have been involved

865
00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:18,320
with Allan Wade Wilmer Senior to reach out to the

866
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,559
Virginia State Police. You can reach out with tips at

867
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,079
questions qu E S T I O N S at

868
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:29,719
VSP dot Virginia dot gov. We at this point would

869
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,400
encourage you to go to the VSP rather than the FBI,

870
00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:35,239
because the FBI are doing no things that we can

871
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,079
safely discern, So please go to the VSP. If you

872
00:46:38,119 --> 00:46:41,480
have any information and tips. Please do not send tips

873
00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:44,119
to us because we are not investigators and we can

874
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:46,119
do no things about it other than send it to

875
00:46:46,159 --> 00:46:48,400
the VSP. But we do urge you if you have

876
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,599
information to please come forward. Take a look at everything

877
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:54,719
on our Facebook pages, and if you are familiar with

878
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,519
Wilmer or anyone who was associated with Wilmer, please reach out.

879
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:01,079
It is time for this case to be closed. That

880
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:02,840
is going to do it for this episode of mind

881
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,119
Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see

882
00:47:06,119 --> 00:47:06,840
you next time.

883
00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:20,119
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

884
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:21,639
Another Dog Productions.

885
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:25,519
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

886
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit.

887
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,039
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

888
00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

889
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

890
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:42,159
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

891
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,079
murders on Facebook.

892
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

893
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,519
Bill Thomas. Five six.

894
00:47:49,000 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder a