Speaker 1: With Laurent's Segeland from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin.
Speaker 2: This is redefining energy today. I'm redefining energy. We're going
Speaker 2: to have a talk with the incoming president of the
Speaker 2: European Energy Association or the Utilities Association. You're Electric and yeah,
Speaker 2: actually I met Marcus some years back. Marcus is also
Speaker 2: the CEO of Fortum, so he's being through a hell
Speaker 2: of a rye in the last few years, you.
Speaker 3: Know, yes, Joah.
Speaker 1: So last month that broussel is E Electric Power Submit,
Speaker 1: which is really a great gathering, and unfortunately you could
Speaker 1: not be there, so I interviewed the Marcus Coroma. We
Speaker 1: talk about the whole of your Electric and then the
Speaker 1: challenges and opportunities as a finish utility. And there's a
Speaker 1: lot of interesting revelation in our conversation. But let's bring
Speaker 1: him on today on redefining energy. We're alive from the
Speaker 1: Electric in Brussels and we have a great guess, Marcus Roma,
Speaker 1: who is not only is your Fortum the great Finnish utility,
Speaker 1: but it's the new president of your Electric.
Speaker 4: Marcus. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for
Speaker 4: having me. It's exciting times now in your Electric with ARSAM.
Speaker 1: Where the summit we are in Brossel's wonderful organization Secretary
Speaker 1: General Christian Ruby is and a fantastic work for the
Speaker 1: people who don't know your electric What is your electric?
Speaker 4: So your Electric is representing the European electricity producers and
Speaker 4: distribution companies and that means that we have thirty four
Speaker 4: member associations from thirty two different countries. So that's EU
Speaker 4: plus others plus Turkey, UK, Switzerland, Norway. So it's a
Speaker 4: big constituency. These member associations have three thousand, five hundred
Speaker 4: member companies who employ nine hundred and seventy thousand employees
Speaker 4: and have a turnover of more than six hundred billion
Speaker 4: euros something the electricity and distribution Well, and of course
Speaker 4: your job is to go and fight the bureaucracy in Brossels,
Speaker 4: I guess yeah. So of course we're spending a lot
Speaker 4: of time talking with Brussels. But it is very much
Speaker 4: about the dialogue between Brussels, between EO, Parliament, Commission and customers.
Speaker 4: So trying to find common ways, trying to find collaborative,
Speaker 4: progressive ways, how to reach how common goals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are now President congratulation, but of course you're
Speaker 1: succeeding Leo bion Baum, CEO of Eon and also known
Speaker 1: as Leodo Great, was done an extraordinary job the past
Speaker 1: few years. So how would you describe the landscape of
Speaker 1: the industry after Leo's work?
Speaker 3: Leo?
Speaker 4: I have to give a compliment to Leo. So he's
Speaker 4: done great work in his seoship of Eon, navigating through
Speaker 4: the turble end times, and that of course was a
Speaker 4: big feature during his presidency of Your Electric. We have
Speaker 4: gone through one of the most turbulent periods in European
Speaker 4: landscape with everything that has happened. So we have had COVID,
Speaker 4: we have had the Russian attack on Ukraine, the resulting
Speaker 4: commodity crisis. So Leo's leadership in navigating your Electric through that,
Speaker 4: maintaining a good relationship with customers, with the Parliament, with
Speaker 4: the Commission, and with those stakeholders, and keeping your Electric
Speaker 4: right on track through that, I think that's his great achievement.
Speaker 4: And at the same time, when dealing with these short
Speaker 4: term issues, and we had a lot of interaction with
Speaker 4: different stakeholders, We've stayed the course of electrification and decarbonization.
Speaker 4: Leo's a special emphasis was on the grids, so really
Speaker 4: highlighting the point that in order to have this big
Speaker 4: growth in electricity supply and an fristy demand, we need
Speaker 4: really to focus on grids. So this was one point
Speaker 4: that Leo made very clear, and I think this point
Speaker 4: has sank in with the stakeholders also. I would say
Speaker 4: that was great fun. It is spite the difficult circumstances
Speaker 4: with Leo and Jorjos in the presidency team with the secretariat,
Speaker 4: it was also fun working together. So now you're the
Speaker 4: president and you have two vice president, one of whom
Speaker 4: I know and I like a lot, which is George
Speaker 4: Joseph PPC so introduced probably your two vice president. So
Speaker 4: we have indeed a very good presidency. I'm very happy
Speaker 4: about that. So Georges was my co vice president for
Speaker 4: two years and what Georges absolutely brings to the table
Speaker 4: is the knowledge of the Southern European market and the
Speaker 4: transformation that these markets are going through.
Speaker 3: Then we have Katherine McGregor.
Speaker 1: Before we go to Latine mcgago, I just want to
Speaker 1: tell the listenership that the work does Georgios has done
Speaker 1: at PPC. If you had both chairs of PPC when
Speaker 1: Georgio's became CEO, you would have made more money than
Speaker 1: with bitcoin because under his tenure the sharp price of
Speaker 1: PPC has gone up fourteen fold. So he has done
Speaker 1: an extraordinary.
Speaker 4: Job in very difficult circumstance, with a very very difficult
Speaker 4: starting point, and that I think thematic of what Europe
Speaker 4: has gone through and many countries are going through. So
Speaker 4: a massive shift from heavy fossil content into a more
Speaker 4: renewable system with a lot of investments.
Speaker 3: Talk about Catherine now, brilliant woman.
Speaker 4: Then moving to Katherine McGregor, so I think we have
Speaker 4: been extremely lucky to get such a prominent leader from
Speaker 4: the European utility and as Catherine Catherine is CEO of ANCHI.
Speaker 4: Catherine brings the wealth of experience not only from anchie
Speaker 4: but from her previous jobs in other companies, and she
Speaker 4: brings the continental view. But also she has the electricity
Speaker 4: business in an she and they have the gas business,
Speaker 4: which I think is a good compliment. So of course
Speaker 4: we're not representing the gas utility represented separately, but it's
Speaker 4: good to keep in mind that we need to do
Speaker 4: a huge transformation from doubling electricity use and then halving
Speaker 4: the gas use and making that also clean if we
Speaker 4: want to achieve the decarbonization and electrification targets that we have.
Speaker 4: So having Catherine knowledge and being able to also have
Speaker 4: empathy towards this transformation that has to happen there, Catherine
Speaker 4: is indispensable. We have been before we were appointed just
Speaker 4: right now during the summit. We have worked for some
Speaker 4: weeks already forming the presidency manifesto, and I would say
Speaker 4: we have a great dynamic and we're really covering from
Speaker 4: myself having the weight on the Nordic and Northern European
Speaker 4: experience and presence. We have Catherine covering the continent having
Speaker 4: great visibility there, and then Georgio's covering south of Europe.
Speaker 4: The Presidency really represents the whole of Europe.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the word manifesto, the one I know is
Speaker 1: from Karl Marx, very successful. So what about the eureactric manifesto.
Speaker 1: What's in it?
Speaker 4: The word manifesto that in my mind when I joined
Speaker 4: the presidency two years ago fondering a little bit at
Speaker 4: what is this manifesto thing about? But let's say that
Speaker 4: it's the presidency agenda. Okay, So we're basically communicating what
Speaker 4: are the things we will put our focus on for
Speaker 4: the next two years, and we have three key points there.
Speaker 4: Number one is focus on the customers, focus on industrial
Speaker 4: and customer decarbonization. Second point is security of supply, and
Speaker 4: that is both the security or supply of the system
Speaker 4: and finding the new optimum the changing environment, but also
Speaker 4: hard security physical security. And the third point is digitalization
Speaker 4: and AI. And actually all these three things go extremely
Speaker 4: well hand in hand. Because we own this electrification journey,
Speaker 4: having to double the use of electricity and production of electricity,
Speaker 4: it will be very different than it was historically. We're
Speaker 4: very used to dispatchable for self thermal power, which is
Speaker 4: easy to control and you can steer the system easily.
Speaker 4: We're going into an intermittent, flexible, volatile system with a
Speaker 4: lot of renewables that will require a lot of flexibility
Speaker 4: from private costostomers, from SMEs, from industrial customers and storage.
Speaker 4: So the whole optimization problem will look very different. On
Speaker 4: top of that, we will move to fifteen minute training,
Speaker 4: which means that any data we have will quadriple and
Speaker 4: that's where the digitalization and AI come into play. So
Speaker 4: we need to embrace the digital tools. The AI capability
Speaker 4: is to integrate much more assets into the system, produce
Speaker 4: good outcomes from our customers, and that takes us back
Speaker 4: to the customer focus.
Speaker 3: So we need to understand.
Speaker 4: Steel, aluminium, chemic calls, hydrogen data centers, bettery factories, and
Speaker 4: continuously talk with our customers to explain what can we
Speaker 4: do in five years time, ten years time, fifteen years
Speaker 4: stim what do we need to deploy the capital to
Speaker 4: produce what they need? And then we need to listen
Speaker 4: to the customers that what do your processes look like today?
Speaker 4: Can you do something different? Can you flex maybe somewhat
Speaker 4: your process? Can you redesign it as an industry? When
Speaker 4: follow in these three presidents and manifesto points, we have
Speaker 4: the track record and ability to deploy hundreds of billions
Speaker 4: of capital to make this transformation possible. So we can
Speaker 4: do it, but it requires a lot of customer intimacy,
Speaker 4: it requires a robust system that provides the security or supply,
Speaker 4: and it's underpin by the digitalization.
Speaker 1: One topic which is totally linked very close to my heart,
Speaker 1: and I know there a lot of discussion, particular in
Speaker 1: the gig protocol, is about the twenty four to seven tracking.
Speaker 1: So that's something that your electric supports. I guess yes,
Speaker 1: So it's clear.
Speaker 4: That be it electricity, albeit other use of raw materials,
Speaker 4: other processes. Tracking of the origin of what we produce
Speaker 4: and what we consume becomes very important. Otherwise you cannot certify,
Speaker 4: you cannot report your processes. And that's again where digital
Speaker 4: and AI become very valuable. So here, how many participants
Speaker 4: do we have? I heard the number about seven hundred
Speaker 4: if we talk about the summit at a very high level.
Speaker 4: I've had a lot of debates and in fact they're
Speaker 4: all inside your manifesto. A lot of conversation have been
Speaker 4: around Spain. You know the blackout in Spain, A lot
Speaker 4: of conversation around AI, you know the promise of load growth,
Speaker 4: which we kind of been lacking here in Europe. A
Speaker 4: lot of conversation about security, a lot of conversation about
Speaker 4: relativity of prices. In fact, your manifesto and what you
Speaker 4: hear from the expert and the practitioner they are kind
Speaker 4: of aligned.
Speaker 3: So that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: At least we know what is to be done and
Speaker 1: let's do it. Is there any message you want to
Speaker 1: pass to regulators, because that's the moment I agree with you.
Speaker 4: It is an intuitive manifesto and it is tightly anchored
Speaker 4: to understanding the customer needs. And that's why we have
Speaker 4: been as you're electric, we have been engaging in the
Speaker 4: antwer Declaration, and we have developed and invested in the
Speaker 4: customer dialogue ourselves. And that actually when we arrange a
Speaker 4: follow up that we called Antwerp Dialogue, we invited also
Speaker 4: EO officials to participate in it. So the key message
Speaker 4: to political and regulatory side is that let's all talk
Speaker 4: together and make sure we understand what is technically possible
Speaker 4: to do and commercially possible to do what the customer needs,
Speaker 4: and then how does the regulation and politics fit around that.
Speaker 4: So the intuition is something I'm really looking for. So
Speaker 4: I'm really happy to hear that if this feels like
Speaker 4: it it's kind of an organically developing that's how it
Speaker 4: should be. So it should feel like, Okay, we know
Speaker 4: where we're heading, and we know how to do it
Speaker 4: in a collaborative, transparent way with a lot of dialogue.
Speaker 1: I always cracked the joke that when you talk about
Speaker 1: reducing bureaucracy in brows service, they so great, We're going
Speaker 1: to write a four hundred page report on how to
Speaker 1: reduce bureaucracy. That's just me so talking about your joke
Speaker 1: about the four hundred pace package on reducing bureaucracy. EU
Speaker 1: is engaging in the Omnimus package to reduce bureaucracy, and
Speaker 1: of course the concern could be that, well, we'll create
Speaker 1: additional bureaucracy. But I think that's a serious attempt to
Speaker 1: look at all the regulation that we have in place,
Speaker 1: look at what is overlapping.
Speaker 4: Can something be reduced? And I think this should be
Speaker 4: also and this is my message to the EU establishment
Speaker 4: that if you introduce something new, look at what you
Speaker 4: have already in place, and then try to keep the
Speaker 4: stack manageable. Company like Fortum, we can do the CSRD reporting,
Speaker 4: we can do taxonomy reporting and all the rest, but
Speaker 4: I can see that there is duplication and tripplication of
Speaker 4: information and all of that is not used by our stakeholders.
Speaker 3: You probviosh report that nobody reads. So what's the point.
Speaker 4: Then I can say that the content of the CSID
Speaker 4: reporting I know as you were CSRD is I know
Speaker 4: they are good at a corporate sustainability reporting directive. So
Speaker 4: this is something that company good companies who have focused
Speaker 4: on sustainability in essence have done for twenty years for us.
Speaker 4: For example, in Fortum, this wasn't the yeah, additional bird and.
Speaker 1: Fortum it is one page, you know, we're good, we clean,
Speaker 1: it's two other pages. This it's a lot of it's
Speaker 1: a lot of information. Yeah, but this is something that
Speaker 1: actually people are using. But all of the information that
Speaker 1: is reported and published is not used.
Speaker 3: So it's good to review.
Speaker 1: Good time to flip from your presidency to your chairmanship
Speaker 1: or the CEO ship so Forthum, you've been through five
Speaker 1: difficulties and the main culprits are as usual, the Russians
Speaker 1: direct clean directly. So explain what happened in the past
Speaker 1: five years for Fortum. Before twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: Fortum was focused on the Nordics in clean energy production,
Speaker 4: in district heating, in distribution of energy, as well as
Speaker 4: the retail the customer businesses. And during the preceding years
Speaker 4: we divested the ridge business, divested a big part of
Speaker 4: our district heating business and eventually acquired a majority stake
Speaker 4: and we went up to eighty percent with Uniper.
Speaker 1: So Uniper, for the people who don't know, was the
Speaker 1: fossil fuge generation of Eon.
Speaker 4: That's correct, and the gas trading and commodity trading story
Speaker 4: we'll be on.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you went big gas at the moment where
Speaker 1: Russia's store system.
Speaker 4: The idea there is that we get a strong continental
Speaker 4: footprint that we can de carbonized as we had done
Speaker 4: in many other places. We can decobonize the production fleet
Speaker 4: and we get an integrated offering of electricity and gas.
Speaker 4: In addition, by the way, we did have a large
Speaker 4: Russian business as well. Yeah, so we had about five
Speaker 4: gigawatso electrical capacity in Russia, so we had increased the
Speaker 4: ownership to about eighty percent in Uniper. Then came the
Speaker 4: volatility of prices, first in late twenty twenty one and
Speaker 4: eventually in twenty twenty two Russia started to reduce the
Speaker 4: flows of gas, which became a problem. So we had
Speaker 4: to post increasing first increasing collaterals for the high prices
Speaker 4: into the exchanges. So at the peak we had fifteen
Speaker 4: billion one five billion of collaterals outstanding in the exchanges
Speaker 4: with ourselves and Uniper, and then with the gas flows
Speaker 4: being reduced, we ended up having to still deliver to
Speaker 4: our customers in Uniper, but had to buy the gas
Speaker 4: from the market, so this resulting in a massive need
Speaker 4: for recapitalization, which was not possible for a fortmore a
Speaker 4: commercial party to do. This resulted in that we sold
Speaker 4: our stake, our ownership stake to the German government who
Speaker 4: then recapitalized UNIPERS. So now it's majority on by the
Speaker 4: German government. Simultaneously, then after Russia's attack on Ukraine, then
Speaker 4: eventually in twenty twenty three, Russia took over the managerial
Speaker 4: control of our Russian business and then we wrote the
Speaker 4: Russian business down. Having said all of this, so after that,
Speaker 4: Fortum has focused on clean Nordic energy and what has
Speaker 4: fundamentally changed is that the prospect of growth of demand
Speaker 4: in the Nordics is something that we haven't seen in
Speaker 4: the last thirty years. There's a great growth prospect for
Speaker 4: our Nordic business. The production that we have today, which
Speaker 4: is mainly hydropower and nuclear power, is ninety nine percent
Speaker 4: CO two free.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I've always have the question and we said
Speaker 3: it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: Who says one to where is the one p There's
Speaker 4: a little bit of steel gas for the capacity, Okay,
Speaker 4: that's in our portfolio and that will also fade away
Speaker 4: and then focus on the growth in renewables, so that
Speaker 4: is coming. Then we have two point two million retail customers,
Speaker 4: so with the biggest retail company in the Nordics, the
Speaker 4: balance sheet is in great shape. So after all these turbulence,
Speaker 4: we are actually debt free yeah wow. And we have
Speaker 4: almost ten billion of equity and the eight billion of liquidity,
Speaker 4: so we're in a great position to support our customers,
Speaker 4: to grow our supply and meet the growing needs. So
Speaker 4: we are talking with different sectors steel, aluminium, data centers,
Speaker 4: hydrogen synthetic fuels, battery factories, and we see the potential
Speaker 4: that the Nordic demand in the next twenty five years
Speaker 4: could grow from four hundred terrawa towers to six hundred
Speaker 4: even eight hundred terrawa towers. And the way we are
Speaker 4: approaching that is that we are developing new renewables. So
Speaker 4: we have five gigawatts of capacity in permitting and more
Speaker 4: in early stages of planning. We are developing flexibility, so
Speaker 4: that's going to be mostly wind. It is wind and solar,
Speaker 4: so historically it's wind, but solar is becoming also competitive
Speaker 4: in the Nordics. Then on the flexibility side, we have
Speaker 4: pumped tider development in Sweden and Finland, and we have
Speaker 4: several projects that are each some hundreds of megawatts, so
Speaker 4: really big storage to complement the renewables. And then we
Speaker 4: have on the full outside we are developing a new
Speaker 4: nuclear so we have visibility study or new nuclear. We're
Speaker 4: looking at both large reactors and SMRs. That's of course
Speaker 4: somewhere in the future. But the message to the customers
Speaker 4: is that we can meet your growing energy needs and
Speaker 4: there is infrastructure to support you. Yeah, and the cash
Speaker 4: and the cash we have the financial means to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's really great. So the message is welcome to Scandinavia.
Speaker 1: It is definitely the message. In addition to that, there
Speaker 1: is the possibility to both. There is COO two three
Speaker 1: very cost competitive supply today, there is the prospect of
Speaker 1: the new supply.
Speaker 4: But there is infrastructure. So the Nordic countries have a
Speaker 4: history of heavy industries like pulp and paper, steel chemicals.
Speaker 4: So basically all the way up to Arctic Circle and
Speaker 4: even north of that, you have huge steel mills. You
Speaker 4: have big pulp mills, so you have all the infrastructure,
Speaker 4: the roads, the ports, the grids, the people that all
Speaker 4: the competence that you need also for new projects in
Speaker 4: order to support the customers. Further that, what we have
Speaker 4: done in Fortum is that we are developing sites. So
Speaker 4: what we hear from customers is that they need reds,
Speaker 4: they need power, they need sites where they can locate.
Speaker 4: And I'll give an example of what this means. In
Speaker 4: the capital region of Finland around Helsinki. In twenty eighteen,
Speaker 4: are team set out to develop three sites, generic sites
Speaker 4: that could fit data center use. And a couple of
Speaker 4: years later, after we had started the permitting and zoning
Speaker 4: and we spoke with TSO to get the grid connections available,
Speaker 4: we met Microsoft and then a while later we announced
Speaker 4: the cooperation selling these sites to Microsoft. Then we have
Speaker 4: agreed on the heat of take from the data centers
Speaker 4: hyperscale data centers that they're building in these locations. So
Speaker 4: two out of the tree will be connected to a
Speaker 4: district heating network. So we have a two terrawat tour
Speaker 4: district heating system in Espo and Kirkonomi, and out of
Speaker 4: these data centers and the connected electrical boilers and heat pumps,
Speaker 4: we will provide one point four trabat hours to the
Speaker 4: two Dahawa tour system. This is the world's biggest hit
Speaker 4: of tech. But it's a long project, so starting from
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, Microsoft wiill start their operations in twenty twenty seven,
Speaker 4: so almost ten years. Yeah, but we can expedite our
Speaker 4: customers location by four and five years. With this activity,
Speaker 4: and with about a dozen sites that we have under
Speaker 4: development now, we can provide grid connection up to one
Speaker 4: point three gigawatts.
Speaker 1: Repeat very very gently for all our infrastadial clients around
Speaker 1: the world looking to develop data center. You just said
Speaker 1: I've got one point three giga out of capacity. Please
Speaker 1: come you can plug here. The electricity is cheap where educated,
Speaker 1: it's clean. You know, we respect that contract. Everything takes
Speaker 1: the time it takes, but things get done. So that's
Speaker 1: your message.
Speaker 4: This is indeed the case, and that does not only
Speaker 4: apply the data centers, but we have sites with ports.
Speaker 4: We have that are at the ports. So the typically
Speaker 4: industrial could be still could be aluminium battery factories. So
Speaker 4: there is infrastructure also for heavy export or import oriented
Speaker 4: industries available. Yes, very welcome, very ready to do a
Speaker 4: new business. Good Okay, So now let's talk about the
Speaker 4: giant there in the room, which is your eastern neighbor
Speaker 4: who's not only has been causing indirectly trouble, but it's
Speaker 4: bothering you on a daily basis, if I understand, So
Speaker 4: what's going on there. We have a land border of
Speaker 4: one thousand, three hundred kilometers with Russia, so we are
Speaker 4: enables forever, so we have to have a relationship of
Speaker 4: varying SOT over time. And now with the war on Ukraine,
Speaker 4: the EU position and finished position is clear. We are
Speaker 4: against this aggression against Ukraine, so now the relationship is
Speaker 4: very cold between the two countries. There is investment into
Speaker 4: preparedness continuously and not as such saying that this is Russia,
Speaker 4: but generically as a company. We are continuously under cyber
Speaker 4: attacks daily. We have drones flying around there, espionage, there's
Speaker 4: a satellite disruption, communication disruption, but this is something that
Speaker 4: we deal with daily. And in this environment, the availability
Speaker 4: of our hydropower and nuclear power is over ninety percent,
Speaker 4: so we keep our plants available. How to tackle this
Speaker 4: is own preparedness, having good situational awareness, authority contacts, so
Speaker 4: we are talking with the authorities, with police, with the military,
Speaker 4: with other authorities, and all the time, keeping our responses
Speaker 4: up to date.
Speaker 3: And then practicing.
Speaker 4: So if I look the last three years, we have
Speaker 4: had more than twenty exercises with various authorities, and this
Speaker 4: can be just exercising nuclear incidents, them incidents, disturbance and
Speaker 4: this is not relating to the current situation, but this
Speaker 4: is what we have done for years and years. So
Speaker 4: practicing and doing things together and very collaboratively is something
Speaker 4: that is a future.
Speaker 3: Marcus.
Speaker 1: It's been a very dense conversation and I thank you
Speaker 1: for your openness and honesty. In conclusion, how is the
Speaker 1: energy and tricy landscape in your in the next three
Speaker 1: to five years. The situation is, as we very well know,
Speaker 1: it's very volatile. So the geopolitics are turbol and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of uncertainty. Looking long term, we have great
Speaker 1: potential to electrify and de carbonize Europe and global businesses
Speaker 1: and this is something that we are set out to
Speaker 1: do both in your Electric and in Fortum. So a
Speaker 1: message to the customers and the society is that we
Speaker 1: want to be open, we want to engage in a dialogue,
Speaker 1: we want to be collaborative and find good solutions to
Speaker 1: meet our common goals. And I would maybe I distill
Speaker 1: it in.
Speaker 4: What is Fortum's purpose, and that is the power a
Speaker 4: world where people, nature and business thrive together, find the
Speaker 4: right balance, rich, ambitious goes and do it together.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great message of hope and a bright future.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: I say good luck as a president and we'll see
Speaker 1: you next year.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Thank you for having me on
Speaker 3: the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you for.
Speaker 3: Listening to Redefining Energy.
Speaker 2: Don't forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple, Podcast, Spotify,
Speaker 2: or the platform of your choice.