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Speaker 7: All right, Thomas, welcome back to the jay Burd and
show how you doing that?
Speaker 5: Very well? Thanks for hosting me.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so this is I don't want to say unplanned,
but we move things around a little bit. We were
initially going to talk about the West Memphis three resume
our series on occultism, but obviously we've done now two
in a row on the Blade Runner franchise. And for Christmas,
you very kindly sent me a copy of Philip K.
Dix Do Android's Dream of Electric Cheap, obviously the source
material for those films, and I burned through it really quickly.
I enjoyed the book a lot, and I figured, you
know what, let's continue our series, get it all done
at once, and discuss the book. It's a pretty easy read.
It's maybe two hundred pages. It's something you can get
through quickly. It is very different than the films. There's
a lot of crossover, and if you've seen the films,
there were things you will understand about the book. The
main characters are largely the same, but it is a
compliment piece. It is different enough to be well worth reading.
And yeah, I haven't read a lot of Dick stuff,
but it's obviously a master of the genre. So I'm curious, Thomas.
I'll let you introduce this. When did you first read
it and what sort of grabbed you about it?
Speaker 5: I first read it well, because I think I mentioned
I got turned onto the film Blade Runner early on
because very early cable I'm talking even before cable as
we know it existed, the Chicago market was served by
what was called on TV. It was quite literally just
one channel. Then they'd played blocks of music videos sometimes
other times they'd play cooking shows or phishing shows. Then
at night they'd play movies, and Blade Runner was one
of the consistent films on offer, and my mom was
a huge fan of it, so I was always into
it as an ip and then when I got into
science fiction, as an adolescent, you know, twelve thirteen, fourteen
years old, I was reading a bunch of Harlan Ellison
and I got the paperback compilation Dark Visions, and in
the back there was an advertisement for other paperbacks including
do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep, which was then being
the paper bank was being sold as a Blade Runner.
So I'm like, go, wow, the source material. So I
went out and I found it, I think a Crown Books,
and it made a big impact on me. And like
I said, I'm not Philip K. Dick's unusual because he's
he's hard to categorize. I mean, obviously he's he was
a science fiction author, but not in the sense that
Arthur C. Clark was. I invoked Clerk because Clark was
more into metaphysics and theological postulates in questions. But at
the same time, he very much had heart sci fi aspects,
you know to his writing. And you know, Philip K. Dick,
he wasn't like Frank Herbert. He wasn't dealing with paradomatic
systems as his subject matter. You know, socio political phenomena
at scale was absolutely a framing device and essentially his
world building. But Philip K. Dicks his narratives and his stories,
it's about they raise existential questions and ontological questions about
the individual and the individual mind amids disruptive aspects of modernity.
And that's the strength of stuff like a Scanner Darkly
and do Android's Dream. That's one of the reasons it's
relatable because it's describing and depicting phenomena that the reader
experiences in his own life. Because these things are intrinsic
to late modernity. When I say late modernity, I'm speaking
in Hegelian terms, not mercy and ones. This would be clear.
And future shock is a real thing, and a lot's
been written of future shock. The phrase was coined quite
literally by Alvin Toffler. He wrote a book titled Future Shock,
and there was humanist aspects to his analysis, particularly how
marriage patterns and child rearing patterns at scale would shake out,
and you know the implications of the mobility of populations
and the sort of tensions that would derive. They were
in as well as economic phenomena and consumption patterns of scale,
and people like Seawright Mills and Christopher lash dealt with
that kind of thing too, Because it's intrinsic to sociology,
but very few people have ever written anything about the
phenomena of future shock on the discrete individu usual mind,
particularly situated in what's obviously an American context, you know,
or if it's been attempted, it takes the form of satire,
you know, like Kurt Vonnegut type stuff.
Speaker 7: You know, so.
Speaker 5: They androids dream of electric sheep. It was a very
unique book for that reason. I can't remember who wrote
it on a senior moment, but the book The Star
is my destination. I'm not a huge fan of that book,
but it it was hugely influential and impactful. Arguably it's
subjectively in the same conceptual vein, but it's it's too fantastical,
you know, do android dream of electric sheep? It's not
really fantastical at all. In a lot of ways, it
came true, you know. I mean, that's and there's there's
subtleties to it as well, you know that I think
are adjacent that related to the primary topical thrust, but
that raise interesting questions in their own right, especially the
you know, how the United States and the Soviet Union
collaborate on matters relating to replicants, you know, uh, decard
runs across one of the renegade Nexus six who's posing
as a KGB officer who's a blade runner, you know,
because that's liaising with KGB blade runners is not a
usual for a big city American cop who deals in
the same grim professional duties. And that kind of interplay
between integral matters of technology, particularly technology that's purposed for
warfare and violence at scale, even or perhaps especially at
times a heightened tension like that, that was a peculiar
but unsurprising aspect of the Cold War. And that's something
that's very much related to technology. It's not intrinsic to
conflict paradigms. You know, it's just one example of what
I was talking about. But it's also the the ethical aspects,
the humanist aspects of technological civilization. They're not generally addressed
in the same capacities that you know, Philip K. Dick
deals with them, and that's very insightful. You know, the
the criteria of what constitutes a human being becoming splendidly arbitrary.
You know, obviously there's a there's a there's all manner
of there's all manner of counterfactuals that are kind of
on the nose in driving home some egalitarian message and
what have you. But the you know, and the way
they the way they deal with the subjective concepts of
the in groups and out groups, and how such things
are determined in political capacities. It sounds to be very
simple minded, as most moralizing narratives are. But phil Kate
Dick's not approaching it like that. I mean, obviously there's
there's a strongly ethical component to the manner in which
replicants are treated because they are a slave cast, but
that's not the primary impetus for why they're disqualified as
human beings. It's because if everybody is human, then nobody
is really you know, If life forms that can be
manufactured are as human as ones who are born of
a woman's womb, that kind of neutralizes all epistemic priors
about the human condition and what's unique about human beings,
even if you're not religiously minded, even if you're a secularist,
And that causes this sort of spiraling nihilism, and it
also has a tendency to compromise all of their ethical structures.
So it's essential that this criteria be maintained. It's not
just some pretext, you know, to to rationalize why these
life forms are forced to serve on death squads off world,
or be prostitutes or work in you know, lead lives
of endless toy and pain. Obviously, it's an aggravating factor
that diminishes the potentiality of replicans realizing any sort of
liberation or you know, being afforded full agency as human beings,
whether it's not the primary titalyst and if there's that
kind of nihilistic spiral, you know, the center cannot hold.
Things fall apart quite literally systemically. That's really you know,
and this is very much on people's minds owing to
the Cold War as well, because when there's a kind
of that, there's a kind of dialectical aganism that leads
to you know, more like profound philosophical activity when there's
quite literally systems competing for supremacy over this planet and
over human affairs, and the subject matter was the the
you know, the dignity of the human being. If you
accept that, you know, the Cold War primarily was in
dialectical terms of the confrontation between you know, progressives and
and left to Galeans who have very different ideas on
the historical process as well as the human condition. But
the point being that this constant discussion of how to
mitigate alienation amiss not just the dehumanization of labor and
patterns of life that you know surround labor, but also
the proverbial death of God, which on the twentieth century
was just taken for granted by intellectuals and playable theorists alike.
That becomes all the more of a existential moral hazard
real will charge. And it's not it's not as if
these things have abated or left us since the the
you know, the onset of globalism and the defeat of
the communists. But it's the character of the the dialectical
process has changed a bit because there's not that agonistic catalyst,
if that makes any sense. But you know, so it's both.
It's both the books both a period piece as well
as you know, as well as a highly conceptual sci
fi novella that remains relevant in discreet ways, you know.
I think that's the real strength of it, you know,
And that's and like before it went live, that the
big difference is, you know, it deals with religious belief,
or Aristot's religious belief, like for those who haven't read
this story. There's this sort of he's both a Messianic figure,
but he's also kind of like Billy Graham. He's like
this media personality named Wilbur Mercer. And in the world
of Blade Runner in the novel, there's this entire mythology
around him and this whole redemption narrative about, you know,
the the moral integrity of the human being and human
agency there in which you know, sets man apart and
allows for the possibility of salvation. And Deckard develops a
certain fascination with this belief system as the story goes on,
and uh, the the critics of Mercer, as well as
the liberationist minded replicants, claim that Mercer's not even a
real person. He's either an actor who's playing this character
with this entirely imaginary biography, or he's some sort of
projected a I or a hologram or something. And uh,
you know, it raises the question too, if, uh, if
Messianism or you know, true theological commitments are even possible
if things are discussed in these terms, if there's a
presumption of all human experiences is being potentially simulated, you know,
psychological experiences, the very very fact of that potentiality, it
might you know, it self neutralize the potential for authentic
spiritual life once. In other words, there's a categorical emphasis
or fixation on authenticity that means that that you know,
God is already dead, at least in terms of you know,
precedented religious belief in things. So there's a lot packed
into that two hundred pages. That's that's the best place
to start, I'd say, yes.
Speaker 7: So the opening to this book, we get kind of
off the bat a number of key differences. So one
decord is married, uh, one of it is, And we
see the introduction of two things very quickly. One uh,
the so called mood organ right, which is a divice
that allows users to from apparently thousands of combinations finally
tune their own mood synthetically. So, for instance, you know,
when this starts off, they're arguing, and part of the
reason they're arguing is that his wife has sort of
voluntarily plunged herself into depression. This is something she's been
more and more drawn to, and in the course of
the two arguing, he's constantly telling her, well, why are
you even doing this? This is stupid. Just make yourself
in a good mood. Also, we get introduced to, as
you've said, mercerism. The religious right in Mercerism is the
empathy box, where seemingly all humans across the Solar System,
both on Earth and on you know, the Martian colonies
have this sort of psychic communion where they become part
of sort of the martyrdom of mercer right. It's this
repeated motif of him walking up a hill while being
struck with stones. We learn that this experience is emotionally
intense that old people occasionally die involved in it. But
there are several things there. One, because this is a
world after a nuclear apocalypse, the condition of the Earth
is even worse than the movies. Possibly effectively, anyone who
can get off planet has the world is just bathed
in radioactive ash, and so it is physically difficult to
remain on Earth. DECKERD, for example, where's a lead lined
codpiece so that he can potentially bear children. We also
learn that this level of radiation has produced what they
call specials. There's different varieties ant heads, chicken heads, basically
people who have been mutated. One of our main characters
in fact, is mutated. His brain is gone. He was
at one point a talentan mechanic, and now they just
sort of keep him around. But also one of the
interesting things about mercerism is an extremement, sort of an
emotional spiritual level to animals. Many animals have been driven
extinct by this nuclear war, and so everyone has everyone
wants to have one. This is a major status game.
And so after this fight with his wife, he goes
up to the roof to talk with his neighbors. His
neighbor has gotten or has a mayor, which is extraordinarily expensive.
This mayor is genetically notable, and she's you know, she
has a foal, right, which is going to be both
extremely socially and monetarily beneficial to this man. While Deckard
he has, as the title of the book says, an
electric cheap a very convincing but still mechanical replica of
a real animal. We learn that this is sort of shameful.
It's sort of looked down on having an imitation animal
and their pole systems set up so that no one
else knows. For instance, a large part of the plot
is driven forward by electric animal repairment, and the whole
thing is set up to look like a veterinary hospital. Obviously,
again you know, in this world where animals are very
we're very rare and valuable, they're often stolen or you know,
there's there's a lot of money to be made. Uh.
So we learned a couple of things there. One that
attachment to animals, which is a central driving sort of
thrust into this plot. Uh, just kind of going through.
Speaker 5: The aformative empathy to it as well, Like that's important.
That's you know, authentic biology or authentic biology is is
uh is fetishized. But having any animal that you know
one is attached to and that you care for, that's
part of the fixation of performative empathy, and that's really
what underlies mercerism has practiced.
Speaker 7: Yeah, go ahead, well exactly, and uh we see another
kind of constant referra. I think it's called it's English's
Animal Handbook, which is this sort of constantly public published Uh.
I guess you could say sort of like market watch
of animals that indicates you know, their prices which are
many many times normal person salary, but also right, the
status of if these example, these animal animals excuse me,
are extinct or not.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: The inciting push to this is very similar to the
film there's a group of Nexus six androids, some of
the most advanced ever developed, that have made their way
to Earth.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: There's a discussion with the police chief who's played very
differently in this book than he is in the film.
Or they go through you know, talking about you know,
the void comptest, right, the way that they determine if
someone is human or an android. They go to Seattle,
right to the corporation where he meets Rachel, Rachel Rosen,
who you may remember from the film. This is slightly different.
It's sort of a similar hook where the Rosen Corporation
is obviously they want to stay ahead of the detection
technology for obvious reasons. And we learn a couple of things. One,
the Void Comptest doesn't work on human either schizophrenics or psychopaths,
so they begin to inject some doubt, have you ever
retired a human? There are humans who are fully biological
but lack empathy. Effectively, the Void Comptest is a test
for empathy. And what's interesting is that, very similarly to
the movie, right, there's a moment where he is supporting
he tests Rachel. But what's interesting in this case is
the first time he doesn't catch her. He goes through
and when he gets a reading, they say, oh, we
got you. We've got this on camera. She's just a
schizophrenic or she's a psychopath, I can't remember. They have
some explanation for it, and they're literally leaning on him.
They try to bribe him with an owl, the same
motif you'll note from the film, and then he figures
her out very narrowly. He discovers, oh, wait, you actually
are an android. And so the relationship between Decard and
the corporation is different between the films, but also his
relationship to Rachel is very different. Rachel is much as
much less of a sympathetic character in the book instead
of said of the film. So he goes to meet
the first Android, and this android is apparently posing as
a KGB official, right, a blade runner from the Soviet
Union here obviously to see one of the first retirements
of Nexas six. This new advanced android, unbeknownst to Deckard
at least any this is the android in disguise. He
tries to kill him. Deckord narrowly, you know, retires him,
and then I believe I can't remember if it's right
before right after Rachel calls him and basically says, you
have to bring me on the next one. I want
to be a part of this. I'm going over this
quickly because I want to get to the introduction of
I think perhaps one of the most interesting characters in
the background. At the same time, this is sort of
the b plot. Isidor, who is this you know, formerly
intelligent mechanic who has become special due to radiation exposure,
has met Ritz, one of the escape androids we don't
know yet. Interesting thing about the difference in how androids
are portrayed in this is they are much more sinister
in the book than in the film. It is very
clear that these androids do not have empathy. And the
way this has shown with how PRIs is introduced is
that again much like the film, this is depopulated earth,
and so even in the city center, apartments are scarcely full,
and there's these constant references to the fact that the
earth is covered in junk, that there's other people's items,
you know, their family photos, their furniture, all decaying around everyone,
and so people live in largely empty apartments. His character Isidor,
works at this animal repair facility and he runs into
Priss he's simple minded, he lives by himself, he's very lonely.
But when he encounters her, she's naked to the waist
but has no sort of shame or shock about that whatsoever.
Described very alien even in the way that she interacts
with him. She lies to his face constantly, clearly taking
advantage of him without really a second thought. There is
no empathy in the way that she interacts with this
simple minded man who clearly is lonely. And that's sort
of the b plot going on in the background. And
I'm skipping over a lot here, not because it's not important,
but just because there's a character that I want to
talk about, because he's, in my mind, perhaps the most
interesting part of this. So Deckard goes on to sort
of the next the next bounty he has to collect,
which is this android who is serving as an opera singer.
She's described as very talented, sort of hiding in plain sight.
But when he goes into her dressing room a film
or a scene we see sort of echoed in the film,
he's arrested. Doesn't go well. She basically says, hey, this
pervert's in my room, and an officer comes to arrest him.
Now Deckard works with the police. He doesn't know this officer.
They're taking him to a police station he's never heard of,
but he goes along with it, and when he arrives there,
he realizes that this is sort of an alternate police
station run by androids. And when he's there he meets
another blade Runner, another bounty hunter who's working for these androids.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 7: Do you want to speak about this character, Thomas, because
I think that this character is one of the more
interesting uh in the book.
Speaker 5: But also the faux police station that's the the end
of these sorts of intrigues and intrigues. Like some people
view that is a plot device like John McCurry might employ,
just put to like a science fiction setting. That's not
really what h Philip K. Dick is trying to convey,
you know. The there's a that that's that's a recurring theme,
not just into Androids dream of Electric Sheep, but in
in most of most of his major works. And it's uh,
but that's another but that's key too, because Deckord initially
he can't distinguish between not just as you know, fellow
humans and replicants, but these are people who are literally
masquerading as a as police officers, and he still can't
distinguished between you identify essential characteristics that supposedly distinguishes them.
The replicant that he meets is obviously the model for
Roy Baddy. What's his name in the book? I can't remember.
Speaker 7: Oh shoot, I can't remember. Let me pull up.
Speaker 5: It's been in minutes.
Speaker 7: If they're real Garlands Garland, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's and uh yeah, it's uh but Garland too.
I mean your point, Garland's a lot more of a
sinister character than Roy Batty is. I mean, Betty's also
both tragic and advanced. As he is the baby character
in the movie, there's this childlike naivete to him. Garland,
uh is isn't like that at all, and the uh
he embodies more human than human in in a way
that is deliberately ironic, I think.
Speaker 7: But so, yeah, when they're at the at this police station, uh,
Decord sort of realized is the game. Yeah, he meets
this other human bounty hunter, Phil resh r E s h.
And this is a really fascinating character, as I've said before,
because he is a psychopath. He has no empathy whatsoever.
So the two of them escape together and go back
to collect the bounty for this woman, Luba Luft, who
is this opera singer. And throughout this interaction, the two
of them are talking and Resh is genuinely wondering is
he human or not right because again he found out
that he was in the company of these androids, that
the possibility of synthetic memories being injected into his brain
he doesn't know, for example, because he you know, on
first examination, he's like, ohyeah, I've been working there for years,
and then he realizes, wait a minute, I can't have
I've only been here for two I have all of
these artificial memories. So the two of them again go
to collect this bounty on they meet her in an
art museum and she sort of realizes that the chick
is up, but before she you know, asks like, oh,
can you buy me a copy of this print I'm
looking at. Deckard feels bad. He has empathy for androids.
This it's a major plot point going forward, and Rush
has no time for this. He's like, what are you doing?
This doesn't matter. The two of them eliminate her. It's
it's sort of a nasty scene, and afterwards, Decard basically
says like all right, Like I'm going to need to,
you know, run this test on you to determine if
you're human or not. And what's interesting is that Resh
is really not bothered by this at all. For instance,
he says like, well, you know, if I'm an android,
I'll just kill myself. He says, I'll just hold my
breath until I die. I can do that. And it's
again interesting because Deckard susses him out. He realizes like, oh,
you know, you're human, You're just a monster. And there
is a contrast there too.
Speaker 5: Decord's trying to raise the funds that he can buy
like a real animal for his wife. I that's like
a key yest point. So he's reluctantly continuing to retire
these androids, but I go.
Speaker 7: Ahead, yes, And that's also you know, a major plot
point right that he wants to his wife is despondent, depressed.
And we see other instances throughout the book which I
haven't mentioned, primarily through the eyes of the staff at
this sort of robot hospital where people are you know,
bringing in their animals to be worked on. There are
there's a mistake which is ironic later enough, where a
live animal is brought into this robot hospital and killed
when isidor unbeknowingly basically plugs it into a battery charger
and just electrifies this cat, which is obviously a serious situation,
but it's a little funny, yeah. And so they have
this conversation and Resh again is very clear with the record,
he thinks he is bad at his job because he says,
you have developed empathy for particularly female androids. You have
this sort of attraction to him, and Race basically says like, well,
there's only one way to get this out of your system.
You need to sleep with one of these androids and
then kill her. It's the only way you can do it.
And so at this point, right, Deckard has been through
you know, the Ringer, He's he's had a number of
kind of violent experiences. So he goes up picks up
the goat on finance, basically saying like, well, I'll pay
it off on this, and goes back to his wife.
His wife is immensely pleased, right, They've got this real animal.
She's sort of over the moon, lifted out of her depression.
But as you know, Deckard is sort of going off
to bed. His boss calls him and says like, no,
you've got to get the remaining androids tonight. In the
intervening time, Baddie his I think they call her his wife.
I can't remember her name in this have met up
with Tris at isidor Is home. They've sort of prepared
the place for a final battle. We're starting to see
more and more this dynamic with UH is them sort
of talking down to Isidor. And throughout the whole thing, UH,
there has been this recurring character of Buster Friendly, who's
this sort of like jocular, like comedy host who is
on the radio, you know, twenty three hours a day,
got this revolving cast of characters, you know, perfectly funny,
always ready with equip and the whole time he has
been teasing this big reveal. We're gonna let everyone know
this big you know, journalism expose. And so the action
is sort of building to a crescendo. Deckard realizes, all right,
I've got to you know, retire these three androids. I'm
already worn down. This white might well be fatal. And
at the same time we're building to this crescendo, this
big you know, obviously fight, but also this huge you
know reveal, you know, what is going to be revealed.
So he calls Rachel, and Rachel has said, you know,
I want to be there. I will help you. He's
sort of rebuffed her, and the two meet up at
a hotel room, initially to discuss, you know, the sort
of mission, but the two of them end end up
going to bed together. We get a couple of things here.
One this is described in sort of very clinical in
human terms. She is not human, despite the fact that
obviously they're capable of this act together. So I'm curious, Thomas,
what do you make of that scene, the one between
him and Rachel, because there's there's a lot there the
two of them in talking one to another.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it Philip K. Dick was very the way he
describes sex, not just in du Android's dream, but in
other condicts as well. It's it's almost it's like people
call without intimacy, and that's that's key to doing Android's
dream of Electric Sheet because again it's it's it's you know,
the it's another aspect of performative sociality, you know, and
there's as if I it reminded me a lot of
Crimes of the Future, which is the Cronenberg movie that
I highly recommend where not to digress too much, but
the protag and that Nigel Mortenson character the people of
ere outicized extreme body modification to the point of where
performance artists do things like removing their own organs and things.
But uh, there's this one part where like this woman
tries to seduce him and he says, I'm sorry, I'm
not good at the old sex.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: That's very much a nod to Blade Runner, I think,
and that's and that's also one of the things that
distinguishes it from the film because one of the obviously
one of the aspects of the film is that there's
this incredible genuine passion that flourishes between racial and decord.
And in the source material, not only is that not president,
but it's really the the statement on you know, the
the fact that intimacy is precluded in this future where
there's not real grounding elements to the way humans relate socially,
you know, like a prerequisite, a prerequisite to intimacy is context.
And I think that I think that's the key takeaway,
unless I'm like reading too much into things, but that's
a I think I think that's the subtext.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's there's several things there, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 7: For instance, Rachel is both physically and you know, emotionally,
very very cold. Like the way that she is described
is not trying to you know, be over sensational. Heres
is not exactly She's beautiful but not sensual.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's nothing erotic about.
Speaker 7: It, right, It's very androgynous. And you know, this will
this will come back up again later because one of
the things that we find out in this novel is
that androids are made by type. You know, they'll have
several different variations, but ultimately there is a type. And
we find out later that Rachel and PRIs are the same.
They look the same, and this is one of the
things that Rachel sort of has this crisis about that,
you know, she is simply one of many that come
off of an assembly line. She says that she's like
a bottle cap right, pressed out identically. So when Deckard
It goes to confront piece androids, she's with him in
the car. They have sort of an argument of falling out.
He threatens to kill her and she says, well, you know,
I know you can never do it. I've done this
with nine different bounty hunters before, and This sort of
sends Deckard into a rage, but he realizes he can't
do it. He is too empathetic for her even in
this situation, so he basically tells her, He's like, all right, fine, whatever,
I'm retiring after this job. I can't do this anymore.
Get out now, go back, go back to Seattle and
run like you you'll be able to be free for
the remaining in her case, two years of her life.
At the same time, we're seeing this the culmination of
this big reveal from Buster Friendly, which is we learned
several things, which is one, he is an android. He's synthetic,
so are all the guests on his show. One of
the interesting things that Isidor comes up with, and it's
funny because you can clearly tell he is an intelligent
man who has been made stupid.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: His memory isn't very good, he described as very foggy.
But from his thoughts we get a certain kind of
interesting insights. And one of them because he hears and
I believe it's Isidor. I don't think it's Deckerdough. I
might be wrong on that is picking up on the
fact that Buster Friendly is constantly denigrating mercerism, despite the
fact that mercerism is officially recognized by the US by
both the Soviets and the Americans as pro social right
after you know, war, exactly, it's necessary to have some
sort of pro social force. This has created among humans
a sort of synthetic ersatz empathy. Right, killing is extremely, uh,
you know, extremely stigmatized. Obviously, in the example of animals,
one of the tests on the uh well, actually several
of the tests on the void comp or questions on
the voice voint comp test, are about exactly that an
idea of eating a dog or a leather couch or
something like that is.
Speaker 5: To not helping the tortoise yet.
Speaker 7: Exactly is emotionally shocking. You know, this is something that
is simply not done.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 7: And he has this great line where he basically says,
I realized that you know, both Mercer and you know,
Mercer and the CV host are fighting for control of
my brain. That these are two kind of totalizing systems,
one versus the other. Which is interesting both when we
look back to uh, you know, your comments about the
Cold War, right, the idea of these two totalizing systems,
but also you know, there really is no there really
is no freedom. You know, something will occupy your mind.
And so you know, as we've said before, when you know,
right before this kind of you know, pinnacle of the action,
we see this big expose. The androids in isidor kind
of you know, huddled around a television and it's revealed
according to you know, to buddy here that Mercer is
a lie. They've found allegedly the actor who played that role,
who was captured, and you know these films which are
you know, pushed out on the empathy organ. They say
that the stones which were thrown at him were or styrofoam,
they couldn't have possibly hurt him, that this was all
made on a sound stage. The moon in this is painted,
and so one we see that, you know, that idea
that the androids are denying this form even of Ersat's
religion or Ersat's empathy, and also that that sort of
war for the soul. I think that the symbolism is
interesting because in this synthetic memory, when you go through it,
you feel sort of the pain in his side, right
obviously a you know, sort of an echo of the
Crucifixion when he is struck in his side. So he's
depicted with you know, blood gushing out of his side, right.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 7: And so I think that's a fascinating scene. Do you
do you want to speak about that sort of expos
a Thomas.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's yeah. Well that's also why too, if you
want to the danum Wa where as it were, where
uh Decker goes. Uh, he goes to the Pacific Northwest,
presumably to meditate on these revelations literally, and you know,
it's it's he's a I think it's it's it's a
metaphor for Alijah, the prophet who you know, who went
into the wilderness, does Elijah? Right, Yeah, it's uh. And
then when he discovers the when he discovers the frog,
which he's convinced that first, I mean, he's it's it
strikes him because it's so rare to see even little
animals that you know, in the wild anymore. And he
takes the frog home to his wife and then they
just they eventually discovered that the frog is synthetic, but
Decker's apparently made peace with that.
Speaker 6: It.
Speaker 5: Uh. I mean, any Phil k Dick's books never resolve
in a tight little package conceptually, but I don't think
I will have bass you know that whole people have
already lost their ability to function within the historical environment
they're situated in. If they've got to constantly that things
that in there that populate their environment for authenticity, or
if they constantly got to try and identify what concepts
or what criteria render something conceptually authentic or real, that
that that makes empathy, that those conditions preclude empathy and
intimacy and all of these other essentially human things. And
the only way out of that nihilistic spiral.
Speaker 6: Is the.
Speaker 5: Sort of fully embrace that reality, whereby these interstates can flourish. Again.
This is the way I read it, because that's the
whole The key aspect of the existential price of the
individual in both the movies and in the book is
that without these reference points to live historically, people without
a past can't orient themselves as any not just you know,
as a discrete individual distinct from other people, and you know,
a human being with agency. But it becomes impossible to
value things in any deeply committed way, because all emotional
responses are merely cultivated around symbolic psychological items that are
supposedly universal to human beings and are only aesthetically coded
to appeal to whatever individual there tailored do fascinate, you know,
and in acknowledging the irredeemability of the world as it
is in Blade Runner, you know, one can access those
spiritual you know, characteristics to the human being. Again, that's
why I think it's profound. I mean, basically, he realizes
his wife likes the frog anyway, if I'm remembering right,
And that's kind of when he makes peace with things,
you know. You know, he's no longer he's no longer
disturbed by the it's inauthenticity, you know. And but that's
when arbitrary criteria are assigned to qualify or just qualify
human beings from from their essential humanity, you know, which
again is an essential aspect of the social order. It's
the only thing that's keeping things from falling apart. That
bleeds into all other essentially human activities, you know, emotional, cognitive,
and physical as well, and there becomes this confused and
desperate effort to identify what is authentic within one's own
emotional life. And that's why the characters who are truly sociopathic,
they're the ones who are splendidly adapted to that environment.
And I mean that's a commentary to or meditation rather
on how corrupt thing it is to uh try and
curate ethics according to some ideological paradigm, even if it's
necessary to sustain systemic features of you know, of the
of the political order anything else. I mean, even if
the intentions behind such things are good, you you're doing
violence to people's ability to curate within themselves a genuine
moral intelligence. I mean I and I mean that that's
that's obviously a huge, uh, a hugely relevant thing to
the I mean, it's relevant anyway, but it's particularly Cold
War coded and temporal terms, because that's exactly what their
respective regimes, albeit the Second World and have much more
brutal and ham fisted way, but that's what both regimes
were very much attempting to do. You know, I'm gonna
make the mistake there was an effort to create a
new American man and woman as much as there was
to create a new Soviet man. It just wasn't it
wasn't characterized that way, and it was more nuanced, and
there wasn't There wasn't an American version of the Great
Purge or the Art to Death camps or annihilation therapy.
So there were still deeply organic and historical tendencies in
American life that were competing dialectically for dominance over the
official ideology. But I think you know what I mean,
forgive me if that was a bit too No, not
at all.
Speaker 7: So obviously Deckard goes to retire these androids, and throughout
the kind of last third of the book we haven't
mentioned it, but deckerd is starting to have mystical experiences.
He is seeing Mercer before him, and in fact Mercer
warns him like oup, they're behind you, and he, seemingly
without remorse, kills PRIs the woman who is or the
android rather, who is physically identical to Rachel. They look
exactly the same. He has this interesting interaction with Isidor
you know where. He tells him, you know, I'm here.
Isidor remarks, sort of internally, of course, that Decker doesn't
look anything like he thought. He's just kind of this small,
schlubby guy who's doing this you dirty job, seemingly very
beaten down. And again, part of the reason that Isidor
has run out is that in this apartment, while he's
looking for supplies, he discovers a spider right, a genuine
biological spider right, and the Androids have no empathy for this.
But Chris pulls its legs off, literally because she says,
you know, it can walk just as well on four
as it does on eight. It'll probably die anyway. And
of course his Stor is horrified by this. And we
see again that lack of empathy when Deckard goes to
the door and he not even particularly convincingly pretends to
be Isidor. But they can't tell the difference, right then,
what is there between them? He busts down the door
and kills them. Batty is much less a character in
the novel than he is in the movie. He's I
think in the book he's a field hand, you know,
He's not even necessarily you know, this this great leader,
although we hear a little bit that he was experimenting
with psychedelics and with religion to try and create empathy
within his in his followers. What's particularly interesting is that
there's a discussion I believe, just before this, at the
kind of right before the climax of the book, where
they talk about empathy, you know, and and when it
is revealed at least allegedly that the mercer is a fake.
They say, oh, we're you always hold this over us.
You say that empathy is what makes you human, who
make it better? But apparently that's all fake. Apparently that
is simply synthetic. Which again, you know, looking to the
fact that you know, uh friendly is a is an android,
there's sort of an open question there. But afterwards, right,
and this is shortly before his trip to the Pacific Northwest,
we learn a couple of things, which is one h
deckerd is almost completely broken, you know. He he is
having a hard time relaying this mystical experience he has
with Mercer. He claims to be Mercer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he starts believing he may very well be uh
may be well, but he himself is a wilibor mercer.
Speaker 7: Yes, and his his fears kind of you know, shrug
it off. But after he finds this toad, he has
this ex hearing someuth in the wilderness, he learns that
this goat, this extremely expensive thing he has purchased, has
been killed, has it gotten sick where he could use
the warranty to exchange it for another one. But Rachel,
before she fled town, came to his house and killed
his goat right, there's an element of jealousy, perhaps because
in their interactions she talks about the difference between what
they are doing, and then his relationship to his wife,
where is a possibility of you know, giving birth and
producing children. We also see a little bit of the
fact that these and rowds basically our psychopaths, you know,
they have no regard for anyone else and says you've said,
you know that the action closes with Deckard sort of
sleep on the couch after you know, Iran, his wife
has discovered that this tote is synthetic, and there is
that sort of you know, making peace with synthetic life.
And I think that that's a very interesting point because
you know, on one hand, we have seen Deckard you know,
sort of shed his empathy, right, he was able to
kill PRIs with you know, without a second thought really
at least initially, that didn't bother him. And again we
see him sort of adapting to this new world as
you've said that psychopathy and Deckard I don't think becomes
a full you know, psychopath like the other Blade Runner,
but it is this sort of interesting you know, making
peace with the world you find yourself in it to
kind of close my remarks on it. This book is
very very good. There's a lot that we weren't able
to get into because even though it's a short novel,
it's very philosophically dense, and there's only so much you
can say in an hour. I don't want to say
we've spoiled it, because look, it's the movies. It's the
movies spoil a book. I don't spoilers don't even matter
to a novel that's good enough, which this is. But
there's a lot in there, boast about the kind of,
as you've said, the creation of new men during the
Cold War, and also the same kind of ruminations on
you know, empathy, what it is to be human. I
will say, for my money, this is not to say
that the book is bad. Body means I think that
the the movies are more interesting than the book. There
it's sort of a tighter, more refined vision. It's personal preference.
Still well worth your time, particularly if you're interested in, uh,
you know, science fiction. But those are sort of my
very broad thoughts on it. And it's a very neat
compliment piece to the other two films. And you know,
Taken is a sort of a loose trilogy. Between the
three of them, there's a lot to gather from, you know,
this novel as well as the two films.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree very much, And yeah, I think the
films are superior, but it's it's essential reading, I think
if you're a fan of the of the film or
they're the ip generally, and Philip Kate Dick's a difficult author, right.
I realize he's got a very dedicated fandom and I
think he was definitely a serious individual, but his his
stuff is a is not for everybody, and it can
be difficult.
Speaker 7: Yeah. My my brother in law is a big fan
of his uh and he's been he read recently and
was a very big fan of the Three Stigmata of
Palmer Eldritch. Yeah, okay, from his review, sounds very good.
So who knows, I may I may drag you back
after we've we've knocked out a few more of these
uh these occultas of episodes to talk about sides fiction again.
So as far as links, obviously you guys know where
to find Thomas. I'll have his website, his UH sub stack,
as well as a few other things down in the
description where you can find him. I'm I think, like
many people, Thomas getting very excited, uh for your long form.
I think that you know, I'm I don't want speak
out a term, but I maybe getting a you know,
an early draft which I'm excited to go over. Obviously,
you know there's a there's a lot in that and I,
whenever it comes out, will be pointing people in that direction.
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thank you so much. This was a great time.
Speaker 5: Thank you my friend.
Speaker 7: Everyone home, keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Good night.
Speaker 6: What what what? What's what? But that's Gary, Gary,