WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.199 Welcome once again to another episode of The Oath and 2 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:15.919 the Office. I am John people sang, and right now 3 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:19.039 we are witnessing a series of extraordinary clashes over the 4 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.920 rule of law, the separation of powers, fundamental democratic norms, 5 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.440 and from what's being described as an extortion demand over 6 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:30.839 infrastructure to full on attacks on press freedom in Jersey 7 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.039 and New York. A federal judge just blocked an effort 8 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:35.960 to shut down the Gateway Tunnel for a president's vanity. 9 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.880 The DOJ executed a search warrant at the home of 10 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:42.000 a Washington Post reporter. What did these events say about 11 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:45.759 the health of American constitutional democracy? I have no idea. 12 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:48.399 I'm a dopey comedian. That's why I lean on the 13 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:53.240 star of our show, best selling author and professor, Corey Bretschneiter. Corey, 14 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:54.759 it's good to see you, Welcome back. 15 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:56.520 It's always a pleasure, John. 16 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.039 And as horrible as things get, I look forward to 17 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:00.000 this conversation every week. 18 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.159 It gives me hope. 19 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.719 And speaking of hope, we're gonna have after our discussion, 20 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:06.640 a discussion with pre Berrara. 21 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.719 His podcast is called Stay Tuned. 22 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:11.079 I hope you'll stay tuned for that and uh, you know, 23 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.519 it's an in depth conversation that we'll have with him 24 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.319 about questions of integrity in the midst of such destruction. 25 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:20.280 And so let's get to the destruction. 26 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:21.319 Let's do it. 27 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:23.959 You and pre Ferrara one on one is that's like, 28 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:26.519 that's like pouring for the angels, Sir. That is just 29 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.519 a brilliant conversation. 30 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:30.799 But I Woanta, I want to before we get to there, 31 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.079 quote from like somebody famous or you just no. 32 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:35.439 I just that's something I made up. 33 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:39.799 But let's before you get to your exalted conversation with 34 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:42.239 pret Burrara, come down to the mud with me for 35 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:45.200 a bit, Professor. Let's beget this because these current headlines 36 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:48.079 about the temporary restraining order to stop the shutdown of 37 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.239 the Gateway Tunnel project, which affects millions between New Jersey 38 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.000 and New York City in essence blocking a political move 39 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.640 to coerce state and local consent, I mean, Donald Trump 40 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.000 essentially came out and said, I will release the funds 41 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.680 for this critical infrastructure project if you name Penn Station 42 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.080 and Dulles Airport after me. Now, Corey, we discussed this 43 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:12.599 on serious XM already, but traditionally what you do is 44 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.159 if you want to have buildings named after you, you do 45 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.120 good things for people, and then later they name buildings 46 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.280 after you to honor you for the good things you 47 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:24.080 did for them. This president's doing it differently. He is 48 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.400 trying to blackmail people into naming things after him that 49 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.680 are already named and saying he will hurt them and 50 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.719 not let the projects be built and waste billions if 51 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:37.479 he doesn't get what he wants. I mean, is this 52 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.479 a form of extortion that crosses legal lines or is 53 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:45.639 this just really a pathetic, narcissistic version of political brinksmanship. 54 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.080 Well, I think you know it is narcissism. And this 55 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.240 is a person who wants to put his imprint. He 56 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.800 put it on buildings in New York City, and now 57 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:56.680 he wants it on a public monument in New York 58 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.439 City or train station. He wants it on airports. He 59 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.120 really wants to brand the name Trump. We would put 60 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.319 it on the Lincoln Memorial if we let him. He 61 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.639 wants to put that brand on our entire country and what. 62 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:08.280 That stands for. 63 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.080 It's a symbol, I think, if nothing else, of the 64 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:16.479 destruction of democracy into a kind of kleptocracy of regime 65 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:20.400 of theft, and you know, thankfully he can't be indicted 66 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.400 for extortion likely that you know, there's a question anyway 67 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.400 about whether this is part of his official duty, but 68 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:28.919 a good chance courts would say it is, and as 69 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.280 part of his official duty, it's protected. That's the horror 70 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:34.560 of the immunity case. That's part of why we're talking 71 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:36.520 all of this. You know, I wish I could say, yeah, 72 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:39.120 in Dietem he committed a crime, but there are other 73 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:41.719 ways to go at him. And what's happening is that 74 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:44.240 this project in New York and New Jersey is pushing 75 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.520 back saying that this is a breach of contract. You 76 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:49.639 can't just agree to a plan in which there's expense sharing, 77 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:52.759 have an entire contractual arrangement, and then up end it 78 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.560 with an extortion demand. So I think there is a 79 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.599 realistic possibility, very strong possibility, that if Trump tries to 80 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:01.439 stop this project, he's not going to get his name 81 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.759 on the building. That's clearly not happening. But I think 82 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:06.960 he also won't be able to stop the funding. And 83 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:09.919 so yes, ideally he'd be indicted for something like this 84 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.360 all sorts of things, one of many things, but realistically 85 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.360 what's going to happen, I think is that courts will 86 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.560 slow him down and stop him from succeeding in this 87 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.600 attempt to brand all of us with his name. 88 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:25.079 I mean, from a constitutional governance grown up standpoint Corey, 89 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.079 how dangerous is it when a federal authority is wielded 90 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:33.199 in such a seemingly personal and dare I say petulant way? 91 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.800 I mean major infrastructure a funded in part with federal 92 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:41.519 dollars relied upon by millions. It affects the economy when 93 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.600 that becomes leverage for a personal conflict, not even about policy. 94 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.879 I mean, what does that mean for the rule of law? 95 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.120 Is there any legal precedent against this kind of tactic? 96 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:52.279 Wow? 97 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.399 You know, I would say, just to go back to 98 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.000 the beginning, like, isn't this extortion that sure looks like 99 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:01.519 it to me? And isn't that criminal trying to basically 100 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.160 use public money in order to get your demands? I mean, 101 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:09.399 it's mafioso in its characterization. And the thing that's really 102 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.879 unprecedented is the Supreme Court's decision that the President of 103 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.279 the United States has all sorts of immunity. Again, it's 104 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:18.800 limited that we've talked to Sheldon White House about waste 105 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.120 through legislation to coordinate off to define official duty very narrowly. 106 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.600 But the bottom line is, what's unprecedented is not prosecuting 107 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.879 somebody for extortion, the idea. 108 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:30.959 That we're all under the law. 109 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:33.759 So now we've got to find other more creative ways 110 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:36.120 of fighting back. And that's the reality of this regime 111 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.839 that we haven't face all unprecedented. A president of the 112 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.160 United States, this naked and this aggression. We've seen other 113 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:45.920 presidents act out in different ways, but this kind of 114 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.360 raw extortion. We saw it from a vice president, that 115 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:52.319 kind of corruption spureau agnum, But from a president in 116 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.600 the open doing this, I think that really is different 117 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:56.920 from what we've seen before. 118 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.079 I want to turn it now to another report that 119 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:05.199 the DOJ executed a search of a Washington Post reporter's home, 120 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:09.160 professor and filed a bar complaint related to coverage. Alarm 121 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.800 bells have been going off in all the hot First 122 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.480 Amendment circles on this. Jeff Bezos, of course, has had 123 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.879 no comment about a reporter's home being searched, and this 124 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.040 is a reporter who people leak to. How do you 125 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.839 view this in light of constitutional protections for the press. 126 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:29.120 It seems like this is done to intimidate other journalists 127 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:30.360 more than to punish one. 128 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.759 You know, I think our first story, John is important symbolically. 129 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:36.199 It's about a president trying to put his name on 130 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.399 our building and to destroy democracy in a sort of 131 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:43.120 symbolic way. But when I think about this story, if 132 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.160 I had to pick one thing that defines whether or 133 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.519 not we're in a dictatorship or a democracy, it's whether 134 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:52.439 or not the dictator can imprison those and investigate those 135 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.040 who are doing. 136 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.120 Things that displeases him. And you know, you like to 137 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:57.519 think that. 138 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:59.639 In America, of course, we have a First Amendment, not 139 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.639 just a guarantee of the freedom of press, but a 140 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:06.120 guarantee of free speech more generally. And you know, in 141 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.199 the hot First Amendment circles, which I include the Supreme 142 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.040 Court in that circle, and all those of us who 143 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.800 care about the rule of law, not Donald Trump and 144 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:18.360 his cronies, that's not even a hard thing to talk about. 145 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.279 And we don't just have, thankfully, the First Amendment. There 146 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.160 is legislation protecting journalists from being prosecuted for their work. 147 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.120 And yet all of that, all of those laws, it's 148 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.079 not just norms. We're going to talk later about the 149 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:37.199 DJ and norms. These aren't norms. There's legislation, there's the constitution. 150 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.120 Are just being blown through, and they're trying to essentially investigate, 151 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.519 maybe charge journalists for doing their job under the grounds 152 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:48.079 that they're committing espionage. Just to get into it. This 153 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.000 is about an investigation into the kind of pressure on Meiduro, 154 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.879 what was happening in Venezuela. This isn't sideline stuff. It's 155 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:59.519 the heartbeat of the questions facing us right now as 156 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:03.160 a democrat. And if you can't have investigations here, then 157 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.279 in what way do we have a democracy? It's why 158 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.439 the collapse into dictatorship. Are we collapsing? Have we collapsed? 159 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.560 That is a very real question right now, and this 160 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.879 example is one of the best for showing that. 161 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.279 I mean, can you just explain what are the legal 162 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:21.839 limits that the DOJ is supposed to observe before they 163 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.399 target a journalist or their communications. I mean, is there 164 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.120 some kind of constitutional threshold here that has to be 165 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:32.159 met to justify going into this lady's house and taking 166 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:33.480 her laptops and phone. 167 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:37.519 Well, you know, there is a clear answer about that. 168 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.720 When the preperraras of the World when he was US 169 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.200 Attorney for the Southern District of New York, when he 170 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:44.840 was working at the Department of Justice. 171 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:47.200 We've had Glenn Kirshner on the show now twice. 172 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.360 When he was at the Department of Justice, there was 173 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.080 a rule that had to be followed internally, which was 174 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:55.720 essentially was, don't prosecute journalists for doing their job. If 175 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.080 a journalist kills somebody or commits murder, fine, but not 176 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:02.679 for journalists. And you can guess what's happened to that 177 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:07.879 rule under the Trump administration. Pambondi has not just gotten 178 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:08.879 rid of it, but just. 179 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:09.759 Blown past it. 180 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:14.120 And you know, there are laws about espionage, for instance, 181 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.759 that traditionally just don't apply to journalists, and there's legislation 182 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:21.080 to protect against that. But when you're Pambondi and you're 183 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.120 doing the bidding of a president of trying to shut 184 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:25.799 down democracy by shutting down descent and shutting it down 185 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.840 the information flow that the press needs to give us 186 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.840 to make decisions as citizens, again that's as important as voting. 187 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.039 The lines are blown past and all of these norms 188 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:39.240 that protected us, all this law that protected us, seem 189 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.360 to be a minimum eroding now it's not over. I 190 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.360 think that the judiciary here, it's such a line that's been. 191 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:46.840 Crossed, they'll push back. 192 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:49.159 But there is a chilling effect and that's part of 193 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:52.039 the danger here, that the press is being shut down 194 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:55.320 by the president, even if he doesn't succeed in a 195 00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:00.120 prosecution imprisoning this journalist, there's fear and that's. 196 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:03.080 It seems like this is directly connected in a way 197 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:04.960 to the Gateway tunnel story with infrastructure. 198 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:06.240 It's all about intimidation. 199 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:09.159 Yes, it's all about this government trying to use fear 200 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:10.159 to get its own way. 201 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:12.240 It's not really about policy. 202 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:14.600 I mean, there are people who are defending this search 203 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:17.320 of a reporter's home saying that, you know, it's law 204 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:22.279 enforcement acting within their boundaries. But what happens when a 205 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.720 DOJ does things that have the effect of chilling reporting, 206 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.679 especially on matters of public interest. It seems like, again, 207 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.639 this is why they went after Don Lemon and those 208 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:34.639 four journalists and for covering the protest and the Saint 209 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:37.080 Paul church. They know Don Lemon and the black journalists 210 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.120 didn't break the law. They're trying to scare other journalists. 211 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:42.919 Yeah, and John, I think that's such an important point 212 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.080 that a lot of times. And I think when you 213 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.440 and I started talking about all this in twenty sixteen, 214 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.600 when Trump was running, when even early in his first term, 215 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.759 and you know, Preperr is an example of this, you know, 216 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:59.639 fighting back, refusing to resign, getting fired. The norms were 217 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:01.759 so wrong that we thought he's not going to succeed. 218 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.360 And now we're in a different world, which is that 219 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.519 the question isn't whether or not people are going to prison, 220 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.480 whether or not these prosecutions are successful. It's whether or 221 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.480 not he can intimidate us into being quiet. And now 222 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.159 you and I are talking every week. I don't anticipate 223 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.919 us stopping that. There are lots of others speaking out, 224 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:19.679 but there are a lot of journalists, I think, who 225 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.480 are being targeted who must think to themselves, I'm not 226 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:24.919 sure I wouldn't go through with this. Now it's a 227 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.440 different story. But if you add in Jeff Bezos's evisceration 228 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.519 of the Washington Post and how hard it is to 229 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.720 keep your job in journalism, you know it might succeed 230 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:35.919 in having that chilling effect and that idea of the 231 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.840 chilling effect, and just to say what that means, it means, 232 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.720 you know, apart from the hard power of putting people 233 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:45.200 in prison, scaring people into thinking they might be investigated 234 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.320 or prosecuted. That's equally detrimental to the First Amendment. 235 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:49.039 We've got. 236 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.759 It's not just a chilling effect, it's a storm, an 237 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:54.320 ice storm of the chilling effect of free speech. 238 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.120 To shut down of free speech, we. 239 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:57.039 Got to take a quick break. 240 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.120 But when we come back, the least didictable members of 241 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:04.919 the resistance to stare down subpoenas by Congress, Bill and 242 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:07.840 Hillary Clinton in twenty twenty six will be back in 243 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:08.200 a moment. 244 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.919 This is the oath and the Office. 245 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.799 Here's what you've been missing on the Stephanie Miller Happy 246 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:17.600 Hour podcast. 247 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.600 This is the putin. I'm not saying that's ruy. 248 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.440 Lie, not gonna put. 249 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.919 It Obama ape video. 250 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.559 He's like, you know, the sixteen different explanations, right, like 251 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.639 I was a staffer. Oh no, I told the stafford 252 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:32.600 to do it. No, I'm not gonna apologize. I mean, 253 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.159 you know how I'm gonna take it down now, I'm 254 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:37.559 not gonna take it. I mean, it's just it's insane, right, 255 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.240 and everyone knows there's no staffer that posted from your 256 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.080 personal account in the middle of the Night Right. 257 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.399 It's just such a whiner, just again, whining point USA 258 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.279 all they do and again it's Putin's just lie. Hold on, 259 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.159 I'm calling Putin for advice like keep them lying, just 260 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:55.840 keep lying. 261 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.360 Why do you call in the book? 262 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.799 I kill you lie lie light booth, go me again. 263 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:01.600 I'm blocking you. 264 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.879 Subscribe to the Stephanie Miller Happy Hour podcast on Apple Podcasts, 265 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:14.200 Stephanie Miller dot com, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. 266 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.519 Welcome back to the Oath and the Office. I'm John 267 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.600 Peeble saying, along with Professor Reretschneider Corey, I want to 268 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.919 talk to you about the Clinton subpoena dynamics we've witnessed 269 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:30.399 this week. This has been a really fascinating story and wow, 270 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.639 it's been a long time since I found myself standing 271 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.159 up and rooting for both of the Clinton's at the 272 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.600 same time. But we've seen these reports that Hillary Clinton 273 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:40.879 is pushing for a public hearing ahead of this deposition 274 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.159 related to the Epstein files. Bill Clinton did quite a 275 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.759 hell of a Twitter threat about how he will not 276 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:49.919 be a prop for these people. And there's a broader 277 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:53.240 fight going on here over congressional oversight tools. They seem 278 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.240 to have really embarrassed James Comer, and a lot of 279 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.399 people are wondering what, why are they doing this? I mean, 280 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:03.279 no presidents testified before Congress since Gerald Ford, like forty 281 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.000 years ago. How would you assess the legal and constitutional 282 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:10.639 contours of this battle with the acknowledgment that this is 283 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.440 all a distraction from the fact that Trump and panbody 284 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:17.039 have been protecting child rape illegally breaking the law every 285 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:18.279 day since December nineteenth. 286 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.039 Yeah, I think that's the most important place to begin, Like, 287 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:23.320 why were we even talking about this. It's because Trump 288 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.519 is trying to cast off any guilt and implication that 289 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.200 he might have in the Epstein evils. I think we 290 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.799 can call it based on what we know at this 291 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.720 point and put it on one of his opponents. Again, 292 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:38.320 that's the common theme, Hillary Clinton and also increasingly Bill Clinton. Now, 293 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.679 they would be well within their rights and I think 294 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.360 they would win to simply fight and court the subpoena, 295 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.919 because there are rules and principles of law that govern 296 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.600 when Congress can force people to testify and when it can, 297 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.399 and that is what a subpoena is. It's compelled testimony, 298 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.200 and the question is whether or not there's some legislative 299 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.080 purpose here. Now, if Congress was considering, you know, legislation 300 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.919 to correct the evil of Epstein, to look into the 301 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:08.000 wrongdoing of these networks and to break them up, then 302 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.639 I think, okay, there's a legislative purpose. 303 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:12.639 But what's the purpose here? If the purpose is. 304 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.120 To deflect from the guilt and attention on the President 305 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.159 of the United States and Pam Bondi and covering up 306 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:22.360 again evil, that's not a legitimate purpose. 307 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.320 So they could fight back. So why are they not? 308 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:26.679 I think because they know they could win in court, 309 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.559 and I think again they would, but they seem to 310 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.240 be and I'm willing to praise them for this, demanding 311 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.240 more and more transparency. Want transparency, will give it to you. 312 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:38.360 And Bill Clinton is indicating that he knows something that's 313 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.360 going to educate America about all right. You know, I 314 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.120 think he could just tell us. That would be one 315 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:45.960 way to do it. Ready to do it in this 316 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.039 dramatic fashion by facing off against House Republicans. 317 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:50.480 More power to them, let's see it. 318 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.000 I was at the DNC two summers ago, and of 319 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.480 course Bill Clinton was the guy who went off script 320 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:59.200 for twenty minutes, just went off the telepropter. He does 321 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.360 know how to high jack something, and we forget what 322 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.440 an incredibly compelling orator he is. But yeah, I mean, 323 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:08.360 this is the smartest pr I have seen Bill Clinton 324 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.840 do in many many years, that that he urgently wants 325 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:13.600 to come out and do it. Now, You're right, he 326 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:16.399 could just get himself booked on any TV show. Hey, Bill, 327 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:19.039 serious exp progress. I'm here baby, waiting for you. 328 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.720 How about the in the Office pot in the Office podcast? Bill? 329 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.799 Come on, I mean, I live near Harlem. We're all 330 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.759 practically neighbors. But oversight via subpoena power is supposed to 331 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.759 be whe of Congress's core constitutional authorities. I've learned that 332 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:34.320 from you, and we learned that when the Republicans just 333 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.679 loved ignoring their subpoenas because they don't have to. But 334 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.360 what happens to the balance of power when subpoenas are 335 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.919 ignored or or contested at the executive level. 336 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.559 Well, I think it's a balance. 337 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.519 You know, during the compulsion to testify of people in 338 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.879 the Trump administration the aftermath, I thought that, you know, 339 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.919 there was a serious legislative purpose to compelling some of 340 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:58.639 this testimony. Of course, Bannon refused to testify in and 341 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.720 went to prison for it. But you know, I think 342 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:03.720 the balances we have to remember there are moments in 343 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.480 history where Congress has abused its investigative power. So it's 344 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.519 not as simple as if you're brought to testify, then yes, 345 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.559 you should have to do it. So I think of 346 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:15.079 the red Scare of the House on American Affairs Committee, 347 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.720 for instance, which is all about attacking those on the left, 348 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.960 communists but also progressives and people who were to the 349 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.839 left of center. And were those subpoenas legitimate, No, absolutely 350 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.319 they were not, and so they were an attempt to 351 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.559 use the tools of government in order to shut down opinion. 352 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:38.279 And I think here too, it's more complicated. It's not 353 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.039 just that it's an attempt to deflect from the responsibility 354 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.720 of the President of Trump and it's not a legitimate purpose. 355 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.319 So yeah, I think they would be within their legal 356 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:48.160 right to fight back. 357 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.880 But again, you know, they're savvy politicians. They can defend themselves. 358 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.759 They're not in a position where they're going to look 359 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.000 bad in front of this committee. And my bet is 360 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.519 on them that they are going to bring out some 361 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:01.839 truths that we haven't seen before, and in the process 362 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:03.759 humiliate their political opponents. 363 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.279 I think you're right, and oh, I'm buying popcorn. 364 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:08.759 I think for that very reason, we'll see James Comer 365 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:13.119 demure from this when he realizes that humiliating the Clintons 366 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:15.359 won't get him some table scraps from mister Trump. 367 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:17.279 I want to ask about this, this. 368 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:18.839 Article you sent me in the New York Times that 369 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.559 blows my mind about the DOJ trying to recruit prosecutors. 370 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.759 The reports say that they're recruiting prosecutors with a strong 371 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.279 view of federal enforcement. What does that mean? Well, in 372 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.200 this case, it seems to mean that they align with 373 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:37.480 the political priorities of this current lawbreaking administration. In other words, 374 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.640 they're having a hard time hiring prosecutors to do their 375 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.440 dirty work for them. This is fascinating from a constitutional perspective. 376 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.279 From an institutional perspective, I mean, what are the risk 377 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.839 of recruitment strategies like this. We don't want you to 378 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:53.640 be loyal to the law. We want you to be 379 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.160 loyal to the game show host running the government. 380 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.000 Well, I just think what a topic and what a 381 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:02.240 lead in This is the in depth interview that pre Perrara. 382 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.240 I'm going to certainly ask him about this and talk 383 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:06.400 to him about it, but as an initial way in, 384 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.839 let me just say this. You know, the Department of 385 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:12.319 Justice used to be a highly prestigious position. One of 386 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.200 the most impressive things that you could do out of 387 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.599 law school or really any point in your law career 388 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.319 would be to go and to work in one of 389 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.920 the divisions of the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice, 390 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:27.359 by the way, founded during the Grant administration to protect 391 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.480 civil rights, to enforce the Ku Klux Klan Act and 392 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.640 shut down the white supremacy that was left in this 393 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.039 country in the aftermath of the Civil War. 394 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:37.440 What a proud history. 395 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.519 And I think for so much of its history, the 396 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.559 Department of Justice did amazing work, even during the Nixon administration. 397 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:49.200 Archibald Cox who went after the President for his crimes, 398 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:53.119 exposing him, working with the Grand Jury that uncovered so 399 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:55.799 much of the crimes of Watergate, later handing it all 400 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.319 over to Congress and a failure to indict the president. Yes, 401 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.559