1 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,439 Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free, 2 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,799 head on over to the Peak Kinyonas show dot com. 3 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,799 There you can choose from where you wish to support me. 4 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:51,000 Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me 5 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:53,320 about this, even though I think on the last ad 6 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,799 I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed, 7 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:01,280 you're going to have to subscribe your sub stack or 8 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,040 through Patreon. You can also subscribe on my website which 9 00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:09,920 is right there, gum Road and what's the other one, 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,959 subscribe Star and if you do that, you will get 11 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,599 access to the audio file. So head on over to 12 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,959 the pekan Yonashow dot com. You'll see all the ways 13 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,840 that you can support me there. And I just want 14 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,840 to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can 15 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,159 put out the amount of material that I do. I 16 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,480 can do what I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two 17 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,079 hundred Years Together and everything else, the things that Thomas 18 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:39,040 and I are doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all 19 00:01:39,079 --> 00:01:42,640 because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be 20 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,680 able to thank you enough. So thank you. The Pekanyonashow 21 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,040 dot com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back 22 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:55,560 to the Peking yonas show Thomas is back. We're going 23 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:58,439 to take a little bit of a detour, as we 24 00:01:58,799 --> 00:02:02,640 do very often, to talk about a subject that's spent 25 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,479 at the forefront of Thomas's mind recently, the que unquote 26 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,639 trial of Adolf Eichman. So Thomas take it away, please. 27 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an important subject matter. It's not just a 28 00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:22,120 question a trivia relevant to people who are into the 29 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,000 third Reichen revisionism. It came up because I was talking 30 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:35,120 to Burden and he was talking about how odd it 31 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:43,000 is that not just formal representatives of Lekud, but apologists 32 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,599 for Israel all in Sundry, and even people aren't Jewish, 33 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,960 they speak of Israel as being synonymous with the Jews 34 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,439 as a people, and they talk about Israel as being 35 00:02:56,479 --> 00:03:01,879 the formal instantation of the which people at international law. 36 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,360 And that's not just a colloquialism or some odd convention 37 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:14,240 that developed over time for ideological reasons. That's very much 38 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,759 coded into the world system, and that was put to 39 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,319 the A lot of things are put to the test 40 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,159 with the trial of ad Off Aikman, including this sort 41 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:32,840 of special dispensations Israel has at international law, and it 42 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:38,479 also it also had the force of solidifying and establishing 43 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:45,159 as precedent for all time this anti fascist convention whereby 44 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:51,280 people can be held into court for allegedly having been 45 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:56,840 involved in what's declared to be what was unilaterally declared 46 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,639 to be criminal acts and in the service of the 47 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:06,879 acts powers. And there was weird intrigues around Eikman and 48 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:13,240 his apprehension, and he was something of an odd target, 49 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,959 you know, to be clear. And Hannah Rent gets into this. 50 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:19,920 Her book I Come in Jerusalem is a mixed bag. 51 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,319 I'm the one that's very critical of Israel and it's 52 00:04:27,079 --> 00:04:31,720 not and it's bliger refueled to a observed due process. 53 00:04:33,079 --> 00:04:34,920 But in the other there's some weak spots of it. 54 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,240 And it was very much written for a mass audience, 55 00:04:37,879 --> 00:04:44,639 and it was very much written according to the convention of 56 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:48,079 political correctness of that time, which was the ear Lane sixties. 57 00:04:48,399 --> 00:04:51,079 Remember people who think political correctness just appeared one day 58 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,079 in nineteen ninety or something. They don't understand this country. Okay, 59 00:04:55,199 --> 00:04:58,360 it was around before any of us were born. And 60 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,920 I judge it particularly contra both the origins of Sotalitarianism, 61 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,800 which is a really great book, and the titles misleading 62 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,040 that's actually not what it's about at all, you know, 63 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:15,839 and it very much has to do with the deep 64 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:20,600 sociology of how and why this has profound enmity developed 65 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:27,800 between the Jewish minority in Europe and and you know 66 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:34,560 European people, particularly as the nation state deteriorated in favor 67 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,399 of supernational structures, you know, as a superpower error emerged. 68 00:05:38,439 --> 00:05:42,720 And that's an important point that's not well understood, particularly 69 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:50,800 in America, even by historians or somewhat critical of mainstream narratives. 70 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:56,519 The meaning that Third Reich was that it was a 71 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,120 pan European tendency. The whole point of it was to 72 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,079 create a new order whereby Europe became a superpower and 73 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:13,399 that process that gave rise to, you know, the the 74 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,639 establishment of the Third Reich and the Soviet Union, and 75 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,319 that you know, in historical capacities, allowed the United States 76 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:31,360 to martialists resources into an incredible degree of power projection 77 00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:35,600 aside of the scene. That was the approximate cause of 78 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:43,480 this horrendous violence that, to be clear, emerged from both sides, 79 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:49,839 you know, between Jews and Germans, and Jews and Russians, 80 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:58,920 and ultimately, you know, Zionists turned their violent attentions to 81 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:06,480 darl Islam and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and that 82 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,560 that's actually very much an earned nolty point that Hana 83 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:13,800 Rent made and that's no surprise because you know, she 84 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:17,160 was a heightier accolade, just like Ernstnulty was, you know, 85 00:07:17,199 --> 00:07:22,199 and they absolutely crossed paths. How close or they were, 86 00:07:22,279 --> 00:07:25,759 you know, it is questionable. I don't believe they're particularly friendly, 87 00:07:27,439 --> 00:07:37,000 but they definitely shared epistemological assumptions and things. But that's 88 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:44,199 that's why this is important. And to understand the present situation, 89 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,519 you've got to understand the Kman trial as precedent, because 90 00:07:54,680 --> 00:08:01,480 the international military tribunal that committed at Nuremberg, that that 91 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:11,120 established the configuration of the global regime's legal order that 92 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:15,000 was only finally fully realized in nineteen eighty nine. But 93 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:23,879 the Aikman trial that established the special dispensations and you know, 94 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:31,959 exclusive privileges of the Jewish state within that system, and 95 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,840 that's not well understood. Not a lot is well understood 96 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:43,000 about Iikman either. Obviously they needed some sort of figure 97 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:51,159 to burn in verbial effigy, and because they're outside of 98 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,600 you know, men who've served as general officers in the 99 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,919 Vermachta of Offen SS. There wasn't you know, the Nationals, 100 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,840 his leadership didn't really exist anymore. They'd been executed or 101 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:09,679 they died, so deciding Iikman, they what they hung on him. 102 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:12,960 The label was he's the quote architect of the Holocaust. 103 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,120 That's really really strange for all kinds of reasons, not 104 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,320 the least of which Iikman was a fairly irrelevant person. 105 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:28,639 He he was a young guy, you know, when the 106 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,039 war ended, he was only about forty or he just 107 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:40,279 turned forty one. He was born March nineteenth, nineteen oh six. 108 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:49,159 He'd his final rank was over stromb on Field, which 109 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:55,759 was the SS equivalent of a lieutenant colonel in the 110 00:09:55,879 --> 00:10:01,399 NATO rank system. At base, he was a policeman and 111 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,879 he served the r s h A, which was the 112 00:10:10,279 --> 00:10:16,480 right Secure TOMP, the Reichmane Security Office. He ended up 113 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:21,320 becoming the chief of Department for BE four, which was 114 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:29,240 Jewish affairs. He'd come up initially through the SD and 115 00:10:29,279 --> 00:10:35,600 the Security Police as being assigned to spying on Freemasons 116 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:40,840 and fraternal organizations that were considered to be subversive, which 117 00:10:40,879 --> 00:10:44,480 again was a pretty middling detail. And he was some 118 00:10:44,519 --> 00:10:49,000 sort of logistics savant he could that was a real 119 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,799 strong suit. And that's what's remarkable about him. He had 120 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,360 a genius for logistical planning and crunching the numbers in 121 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:03,840 his head. That entailed moving mass amounts of human beings 122 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:11,440 and material as needed in under conditions of you know, war, 123 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:17,720 peace time, and varying degrees of mobilization, and that owes 124 00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:25,679 to the Holocaust and narrative places of premium on well, 125 00:11:25,799 --> 00:11:30,519 these this moving around of populations at massive scale, These 126 00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:34,919 people are being delivered to their doom, and Eichman the 127 00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:38,000 savant was delivering them to their death and mass. So 128 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:40,000 that part of it makes sense. With this idea that 129 00:11:40,039 --> 00:11:44,639 he was this important personage in the German Reich is 130 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:56,519 totally off base and just odd at to understand what 131 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:02,759 is rank would have been, or i mean, his cloud 132 00:12:02,919 --> 00:12:08,679 or relative power within the executive of the the Reich. 133 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:14,639 You know Himler was under Heinrich Mueller, who came eve 134 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,600 known as Gestappo Muller, who's the head of the Gestapo. 135 00:12:19,919 --> 00:12:24,120 Gestappo Mueller served directly under Ryinod Heydrich, who was chief 136 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:27,559 of the SD and the chief of the RSHA and 137 00:12:27,639 --> 00:12:30,240 after he was murdered, Ernst Carlton Berner came into the role. 138 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,519 Heidrich and the later kalten Berner served under Himmler. Himmler 139 00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:38,360 technically was second only to Hitler because he was the 140 00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:42,519 reichs Farrss. But Hitler and Himmler were not close. They 141 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:46,679 weren't friends. They didn't socialize, They seldom saw each other. 142 00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:52,559 They're you know, they didn't associate socially. Himler was a 143 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,159 bit of a loose cannon who Hitler reviewed as being 144 00:12:57,279 --> 00:13:00,559 radically dedicated to the cause. He was an old fighter, 145 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,080 he'd been at Munich in ninety twenty three. He'd come 146 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:08,840 up through Rohm's Free Corps. So his credentials spoke for 147 00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:14,679 themselves in terms of his willingness to sacrifice for the party. 148 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,240 But you know that that was it. There wasn't a 149 00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:23,039 personal relationship to speak between Hitler and Himler. This idea 150 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,159 that this idea that Aikman was some approximate to the 151 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:32,399 fur had great power. That's that that that doesn't make 152 00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:37,799 any sense. That'd be that'd be like taking some kind 153 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,919 of random career homely in security man and declaring that 154 00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:48,399 he's the actual power behind Donald Trump or something. You know, 155 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,840 I'm just for context that it doesn't really make any 156 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:58,879 sense what I believe happened with Aikman. And this is 157 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,519 pretty well substantial by this point by people who want 158 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:05,639 to dig into the record. Ikeman after the war, like 159 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,879 a lot of people who'd served the Access Powers, and 160 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:17,159 not just Germans, but Italians, Croas, Japanese, Slovaks, you know, 161 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,039 all manner of people, they found a new home in 162 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:28,480 Latin America, particularly Argentina. But Argentina also is a very 163 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:37,679 European coded place culturally, and the Prone government was very 164 00:14:37,679 --> 00:14:43,200 friendly to National Socialists, as was the Strassner government. So 165 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:46,080 after the war, Iikman, just by virtue was a membership 166 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,080 in the SS and you know, particularly the RSHJ meant 167 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,559 that he would be a wanted man, but it wasn't 168 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:57,799 really a private He wasn't really anybody's radar for years. 169 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,600 Then what happened was there's the publication of what came 170 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:08,120 to be known as the Aikman Papers. Now this came 171 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:13,679 about because in Argentina there's a man named Wilhelm Sassen 172 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,720 who came to know Iikman, and he also probably came 173 00:15:17,759 --> 00:15:22,480 to know Mengola personally, Mengol is a lot more sympathetic 174 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:25,919 of a figure than Iikman in my opinion, because he 175 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,720 Mengela literally got transformed into this into this horror movie 176 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:39,200 monster by propaganda. It's totally totally bizarre. And Mengola drowned 177 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,039 when he was swimming as an elderly man and his 178 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,279 identity wasn't confirmed for some years. But so, I mean, 179 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,960 he he escaped the vengeance of the Jewish state and 180 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,240 of the Justice Department's OSI, but I'm sure he didn't 181 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,519 have a happy way where he was living out his 182 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:06,919 twilight years. But because it may the deal with wil 183 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,879 Hum Sassen billm. Sassen was that he was a Flemish 184 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,919 National Socialist and from Holland, and he joined the s 185 00:16:16,159 --> 00:16:25,240 S as a as a work correspondent and as a 186 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,399 as a Dutch language propagandist on behalf of the the 187 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:37,679 NSD A p and Uh. He was on deck with 188 00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:44,320 documenting a lot of antipartisan action, so he witnessed some 189 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:48,240 pretty severe stuff and he may have he may have 190 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,120 participated in it in a direct action capacity. You know, 191 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,559 I'm talking about mass shootings and non combatants and the 192 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:57,200 kind of stuff that was common to the ost front 193 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,519 on both sides. But Sasen he was an incredibly shady 194 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,720 guy and he was almost certainly some kind of intelligence 195 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:14,200 asset for the boond this Republic or British intelligence or 196 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:21,960 the CIA. You know, he probably did this for cynical reasons. 197 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,960 He it's hard to imagine a man like him having 198 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:32,960 any principles. But what Sassen did was he Eikman was 199 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:36,279 kind of a naive person. He was almost autistic by 200 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:43,680 all accounts. Sassen befriended Aikman and he said, I want 201 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,799 to I want to help you draft your memoirs because 202 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,960 you were an important man who was witnessed to history, 203 00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:54,640 and you know, we need to set the record straight. 204 00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:02,200 So what was produced was this six hundred pages of documents, 205 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,400 which is mostly conversations between Sassen and Eichman about the 206 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:14,279 war years, about the structure of the ss ON on 207 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,799 the SD side and the r SAHA side, which at 208 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:21,319 then at that point was little known. There wasn't much 209 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:23,880 written about it, and the men who'd served the organization 210 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:34,039 were very secretive about it. And within the pages of 211 00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:40,160 this testimonial, Aikman says some pretty incriminating stuff but not 212 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,759 of the sort that people might think. And what Sasen 213 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,920 did was he proceeded to sell these pages to a 214 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:57,799 Life magazine, obviously without Aikman's knowledge. And then subsequently, what's 215 00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:03,880 you know what lands like a bomb in English speaking 216 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,960 media markets On the front page of Life magazine is 217 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,759 this picture of Aikman in his SS uniform and in 218 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,440 bold letters to interview with the devil, the architect of 219 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,799 the Holocaust. And so suddenly Eichman is on people's radar 220 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:31,799 and sausted all but disclose exactly where Aikman lived. And 221 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,519 to be clear, Aikman, to his credit, he was still 222 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:39,759 married to his wife, you know, who he'd brought with him. 223 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,759 He actually had a young child, you know, who arrived 224 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,039 late in life, you know, and he was working as 225 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:50,519 some sort of office job. I think he was working 226 00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:54,920 as an accountant for some small machine firm or something, 227 00:19:56,559 --> 00:19:59,720 you know, and living in the Buenos Aire suburbs, just 228 00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:02,319 kind minding his own business, you know. I mean, he 229 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,599 was living under an alias, but it's not like he 230 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:16,480 was under deep cover or something. And when when this 231 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:21,400 kind of entered the public mind, you know, very suddenly 232 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,160 the question became, why is this man free. Why isn't 233 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:31,160 he facing justice? You know this, this man is the 234 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,920 most evil personal life. He he was the architect of 235 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:43,880 the Holocaust, you know, so very, so very quickly this 236 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:52,119 became a priority of them, SAD two capture him and 237 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,359 avail him to a show trial, but first and foremost 238 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:01,359 to interrogate him and and sort of fill in the 239 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,200 gaps of what they wanted to know. And during the 240 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:13,200 Cold War, and you know, all information of this sort 241 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,440 was valuable, even though it might not seem so to 242 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:22,240 a layman, but also if you're somebody engaged with the 243 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:27,599 historical process, whether as a secret policeman or an intelligence agent, 244 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,039 or a military man, or just a nobody kind of 245 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:39,240 documentarian like me, this is a valuable score a person 246 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:47,319 like Eikman. And what's interesting is Simon Wisenthal, who has 247 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,079 proven to be a total liar. I'm not talking about 248 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:55,720 what he alleged about events in World War Two, although 249 00:21:55,799 --> 00:22:00,000 that obviously wasn't credible either, but he made a whole 250 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:03,240 career out of making up stories about being involved in 251 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,519 capturing these Third Reich figures. And he claimed that he 252 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:15,359 located Iikman. That's complete nonsense. He He'senthal was that nobody 253 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,960 who built a career on bullshit and presenting himself as 254 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,000 as some sort of Frederick Forsyke novel character. You know, 255 00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:30,000 this was completely confabulated. And like I said too, Iikman 256 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:36,119 wasn't really hiding number one and number two such that 257 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:43,079 he was under light cover. That was all over by 258 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:50,079 the time Sasen sold his testimony to Life magazine. So 259 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:59,119 on the evening of May eleven, nineteen sixty Iikeman, you know, 260 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,519 is on his way home from work like any other night, 261 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:10,599 and he gets grabbed by Masad operatives, you know, thrown 262 00:23:10,599 --> 00:23:16,200 into a car, subdued with some kind of drug. You know. 263 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,039 Nine days later, he's been flown to Israel and thrown 264 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:25,599 in a jail cell when a veiled to interrogation for 265 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:32,680 the next eleven months, and on April eleven, nineteen sixty one, 266 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,440 he found himself in district court in Jerusalem, being arraigned 267 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:49,000 on fifteen counts, including the allegation that, together with co conspirators, 268 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:54,480 he committed crimes against the Jewish people, as well as 269 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:59,880 crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the usual litany of charges. 270 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:04,119 At first solid of the day at the International Military 271 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,079 tribunal a decade and a half prior. But what was 272 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,640 significant and what was novel, was this claim that Aikman 273 00:24:13,799 --> 00:24:18,319 had offended against the Jewish people as a people, and 274 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:25,000 that Israel was the the jury representative at international law 275 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,079 of the Jewish people as as an ethnos or as 276 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:37,400 a confessional and sectarian community and as a matter of law. 277 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:45,160 That's problematic, and interestingly, a lot of these Jewish organizations 278 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:51,440 in America, in the Bunue Republic, in the UK this 279 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:54,880 wasn't the case. But a lot of these American Jewish 280 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,519 mngos said, wait, wait, wait a minute. You know, the 281 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,799 government in Tel Aviv is isn't the representative of all 282 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Jewish people. That's that's not the way we want to proceed, 283 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:16,640 and that's probably not even legally cognizable, you know, this 284 00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:22,799 idea that like that to be clear too, that the 285 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:30,559 claim of the Jewish state in this context, it wasn't 286 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:34,000 that they govern in Tel Aviv is the representative of 287 00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:37,880 Jewish people the nation of Israel. The claim was that 288 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,200 it literally was the representative of the Jewish people as 289 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,519 the Jewish people on this planet, whatever their nation of 290 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:49,400 origin and whatever language they speak. And if you with 291 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:52,559 specific intent to harm the Jews as a people, offend 292 00:25:52,599 --> 00:26:00,400 against them. Their legal representation. The their legal representative as 293 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,799 a matter of law is the Jewish State, and they 294 00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:10,480 can stand in for the Jewish diaspora as a matter 295 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:14,759 of law. And like bern and I were talking about, 296 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,799 this is why when these you know, it's not just 297 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:26,119 wackos like Mark Levin or extremists biggests like Dershowitz, when 298 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,119 these people claim that if you're attacking the Jewish State, 299 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,400 you're engaged in anti Semitism. That's not just a colloquialism 300 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,319 or a polemical device. They're saying, as a matter of law, 301 00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:43,039 if you're opposing the Jewish State, you're opposing the Jewish people. 302 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,000 And if you're opposing the Jewish people, you're doing it 303 00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:50,319 out of some kind of insidious prejudice. Because the reason 304 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,519 why this arrangement exists and why they're permitted these defensive 305 00:26:55,559 --> 00:27:05,279 structures that lack precedent and incomparable iterations with respect to 306 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,279 other populations, is because the Jewish people are uniquely susceptible 307 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:14,920 to violence from others. So there's a whole set of 308 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,839 epistemic priors. And I'm not offering legitimacy to this perspective 309 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,359 because it's insane. But the reason why these polemicists invoke 310 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:34,200 that conceptual vocabulary is for this reason, and that's important understand. 311 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:41,599 And world opinion, I mean, obviously excluding the East Bloc, 312 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,160 but you know, during the Cold War, it was the 313 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,359 opinion of the free world, that is what was considered 314 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,160 valid precedent. And then when the wall came down, obviously 315 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:58,799 that became global president everybody in the Free world, as 316 00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,519 it was called. I mean, there were objections here and there, 317 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,160 particularly among some carely sing with personages, but there wasn't 318 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,079 some formal protest from the Bond government or from the 319 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,000 London government, or from Washington or something. So that's just 320 00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:25,839 what stood, you know. Iikeman pled not guilty to each count, 321 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,880 but he qualified it. He said, I'm not guilty in 322 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:35,079 the sense of the indictment, and interestingly, the judge didn't 323 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,799 initially question him what he meant by that. Iikman's lawyer, 324 00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:50,640 abiding the same convention as Nuremberg and the Doctout trials, 325 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,160 Iikman was allowed to select counsel of his choice, and 326 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,880 the Israeli government paid him for his time and flew 327 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,559 him out there but that's really where due process ended, 328 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:10,680 just like a Nuremberg. But Iikeram his lawyer was a 329 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:18,240 man named Robert Servadis, who is native the Cologne, and 330 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,640 he was a heavy hitter. But what he explained to 331 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,279 the court later when the court asked, what did your 332 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:32,000 client mean by this, Servadis said, Aikman feels guilty before God, 333 00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:37,240 but not before the law. And whatever Iikman did or 334 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,599 whatever he ordered, first of all, Servadis said, Iikman didn't 335 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,599 murder anybody. Ikman's never murdered a Jewish person or a 336 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:50,240 non Jewish person or any person. So he objected on 337 00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,680 substance of grounds to Iikman being accused of murder. If 338 00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:57,559 you wanted to accuse him of conspiracy, fine, will fight 339 00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:03,279 that charge. But produced one instance, produce any inculinary evidence, 340 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,880 documentary or direct testimonial, anything else of Iikman murdering anybody. 341 00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:11,359 And interestingly, the court the prosecution tried to do that 342 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,960 and they couldn't. What they came up with was during 343 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:28,839 the occupation of what's now Serbia and parts of Boston, 344 00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:37,759 Herzegovina abudding, what was the ndah Iikeman as an sd man. 345 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:50,160 It was within his purview to be responsible. That leaves 346 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:58,119 in a you know, at least in the capacity of 347 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,480 at least in the advisory capacity on how to how 348 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:07,839 to handle anti partisan efforts. So there's a memo that 349 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:12,680 Aikman signed off on incidents to the minutes of a 350 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:19,119 meeting where he suggested continuing a policy a decimation where 351 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:28,759 for every German soldier killed, hostages would be murdered. You know, 352 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:34,440 the hostages in the instant case being ethnic Serbs and 353 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,319 Jews who were presumed to be sympathetic to the Chetniks 354 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:44,920 and the Communists. And that was what they came up with, saying, see, 355 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,000 Eichman was capable of murder at least capable of it, 356 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:55,200 which was trivial in the context, not just because of 357 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,759 the gravity of what they were alleging, but you know 358 00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:05,440 it it suggests a real it. So just that even 359 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:15,279 within the arbitrary parameters of the court in Jerusalem where 360 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,240 a show trial was being held. In the purest sense, 361 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:26,079 Servadis was a serious guy. He attacked where he could, 362 00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:28,880 and he made the prosecution what foolish where he could. 363 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:40,400 But to bring it back, Iikman's position was that anything 364 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,480 he did or didn't do in his role as an 365 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:50,680 over stump and field of the SS serving the s 366 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,519 D in ther Sha. These were acts of state, So 367 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,640 healing him into court for murder and grants of acts 368 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:07,759 of state would be like hailing Curtis LeMay into court 369 00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:10,960 and charging him with one hundred thousand counts of murder 370 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:23,799 for firebombing Tokyo. And as Servadas said, mister Aikman is 371 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:31,000 here because he committed acts for which you are decorated 372 00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:33,960 if you win, and you go to the gallows if 373 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:41,160 you lose, which was true, which is why as well, 374 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,599 this sort of narrative of the Vansi conference becomes so relevant. 375 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:57,559 That wasn't particularly emphasized here, but what was is very interesting, 376 00:33:57,599 --> 00:33:59,000 and I can get into that in terms of the 377 00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:12,920 evidence presented, both particularly direct testimony. But the way that 378 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:18,440 the International Military Tribunal fifteen years before had gotten around 379 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,400 this challenge was, as I think we've discussed in earlier episodes, 380 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,519 they alleged, well, this wasn't a normal government and these 381 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:33,400 weren't act committed pursuing to exigencies of war. This was 382 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,960 a criminal conspiracy and from inception, the raison detra of 383 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,000 the German Reich was to murder the Jewish race, and 384 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:47,440 that's really the only reason it existed. And the Van 385 00:34:47,519 --> 00:34:54,519 Si Conference was the formalization of that intended purpose, manifest 386 00:34:54,639 --> 00:35:03,840 as a conspiracy by key actors in the executive branch 387 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:10,519 of the National Socialist Party state. That's an incredibly specious argument, 388 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,960 and in the normal court, I don't even think you 389 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,519 would be admissible. Generally, I'm not gonna bore everybody with 390 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:25,519 evidentiary rules and the nuances generally at criminal law, and 391 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:29,519 there are I'm saying generally, because there's nuances every state, 392 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,639 and then there's the federal system too, But generally what 393 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:41,400 is admissible is evidence of plan, motive, design, in choate 394 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:50,360 aspects that relate to intent. That removes it from being 395 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,159 categorically treated as propensity evidence, which is almost always excluded. 396 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:04,639 But to extrapolate that convention and say, well, there was 397 00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:13,159 this meeting, and this meeting is demonstrative of the fact 398 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:21,800 that the cordiological purpose of a state government was to 399 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,199 carry out a criminal act at massive scale, owing to 400 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:39,519 nothing beyond malice and perverse moral frailty. You know, like 401 00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:43,039 I said, I can't it's hard me to put myself 402 00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:45,119 in the position of a judge, because I really don't 403 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:53,239 have any respect for judges, and I agree with what 404 00:36:53,360 --> 00:37:01,000 Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior said, judges rendered decisions based on 405 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:07,239 the political climate and a little else. At the same time, 406 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,000 I'd be curious as to how an argument like that 407 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,079 would be structured. Assuming it was, you know, an issue 408 00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:21,199 of first impression, I'd probably let it pass. But I 409 00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:27,960 I've got sympathy for the devil, you know. But that's uh, 410 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,639 you know, this is highly significant. It's not it's not 411 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:40,159 just a question of lawyer ball and word games. And 412 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:47,239 Aikman's trial was a show trial in two sentss was 413 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:53,119 a show trial in the obvious since and that it 414 00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:58,840 was ideological theater who passed off as jurisprudence. But also 415 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:09,199 this was the days of international news, you know, so 416 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:15,719 people weren't seeing live what was happening in Jerusalem because 417 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,400 in nineteen sixty one there weren't these the satellite feeds 418 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,000 that facilitated that wasn't perfected yet. And then a few 419 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:27,440 years later when it was, it was it was an 420 00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:32,840 arduous process. It was Elvis's Aloha from Hawaii that I 421 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,599 it was one of the first mass broadcast satellite events 422 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:42,519 all of this planet. But on the evening news people 423 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:47,039 were seeing footage from I coming on trial, and legal 424 00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:50,079 experts were weighing in on what was happening, you know, 425 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,320 And that's substantially that's that's a whole different animal then 426 00:38:56,639 --> 00:39:00,320 going to the movie theater in ninety forty seven saying 427 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,559 movie tote news clips of of you know, they're five 428 00:39:03,599 --> 00:39:06,480 seconds long of Herman gearing on the stand, when you 429 00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,679 can't even hear his testimony. There's just you know, a 430 00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:15,239 voiceover as it were, you know, offering color or proffering 431 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:23,920 color commentary. So there was the Jerusalem Court had a 432 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,800 tougher road to hoe. And also Iikman was the only 433 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:36,960 defendant on deck. It couldn't the bait and switch wasn't 434 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:44,800 possible whereby you know, if if the prosecuting attorney was 435 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,400 best at on you know, by a witness, they could 436 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,519 shift their attention to a weaker link and the proverbial 437 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:57,280 chain the leg was possible at at Nuremberg and we 438 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,599 had to talk on stuff, you know, so they that too. 439 00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:06,239 And also the social engineering regime hadn't I mean, yeah, 440 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,440 a lot of New Deal propaganda had had an incredibly 441 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:17,320 toxic effect, and already and American public opinion had been 442 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:24,039 substantially warped. But this process hadn't really come to fruition yet. 443 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,760 And there's a lot of people who either on to 444 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,519 social prejudice or because they were politically sophisticated, didn't particularly 445 00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:36,800 like Jews, didn't like the state of Israel, didn't think 446 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,119 particularly considering that the Cold War was absolutely raging then 447 00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:47,280 that World War two is some great thing. So there 448 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,400 was something of a delicate minuet here. And back then, 449 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:59,599 unlike today, Zionis propaganda was pretty sophisticated. It wasn't You 450 00:40:59,679 --> 00:41:02,599 didn't have him noxious idiots like Mark Levin running around 451 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:06,400 acting like some their Sturmer caricature. You know, it's pretty 452 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,360 slickly presented. And if you get on YouTube, I'll try 453 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,639 and put together what I think are sort of key 454 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,320 clips that are available on the Kland trail. Obviously, these 455 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,920 guys and these women were kind of out front representing 456 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,920 these really government like a lot of them have heavy 457 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,599 European or Middle Eastern accidents, but they're well put together. 458 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:30,079 They I mean, they look ethnic, but they don't look 459 00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:34,559 particularly alien. You know, it was very it was clear 460 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,519 that like who they selected to be on camera, things 461 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:43,119 like that. You know, obviously they're trying to telegraph See, 462 00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:47,119 these are people like you. They're they're they're respectable white 463 00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:50,119 people who share the same habits you do. They they 464 00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:52,320 just have a different religion. You know, all of that. 465 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 1: We still we still suffer that today. It's there's a 466 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,199 reason why Yahoo went to school in the United States. 467 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 2: Oh no, of course, but a guy like Mark Levin 468 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,440 doesn't exactly relate to Middle America well or make Jews 469 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,119 look good. Yeah like that. I mean that was my point. 470 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:17,599 Like back then, some guy working for the AGC or 471 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:23,079 the A D. L even or some uh or some 472 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:28,159 guy or some lady, uh, you know, who is deciding 473 00:42:28,199 --> 00:42:31,239 who from the nesset would appear on on on the 474 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,159 five o'clock news. They they'd have been mortified if if 475 00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,079 some guy like Mark Levin was was you know, acting 476 00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:43,639 like that. You know that, That's what I meant. Yeah, 477 00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:49,519 the this uh, the sort of cycling of elite from 478 00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:54,639 the Jewish state to America and the deep interdependence there. 479 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:56,599 You know, we were talking about earther with a fella. 480 00:42:56,679 --> 00:43:00,880 It's like why why why are IDF people training you know, 481 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,239 the Minneapolis Police Department. You know, I mean stuff like that. 482 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:11,559 It's really very very on the nose. But I and 483 00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:14,039 what's interesting too, this I'll bring it back because this 484 00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:17,480 is truly tangential. But you know, the on the nose. 485 00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: I see what you did there. 486 00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:23,599 Speaker 2: That was actually I didn't actually intend it as a 487 00:43:23,639 --> 00:43:27,920 double entendre, but since but yeah, I'll take credit for it. 488 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,199 That's funny. But Ariel Sharon, I believe he was an 489 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,760 Oriental jew. His family was from Palestine. You know. He 490 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:45,039 wasn't an ashkenasm or or Staffardine. And he he he 491 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,079 wasn't one of these guys from Brighton Beach, you know, 492 00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:56,719 who moved the Jewish State after Plan D had had 493 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,719 genocided the coveted territory. And that was gonna partially rare, 494 00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:08,360 at least among the core of what became the political 495 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,800 culture of the zion Of State. You there weren't a 496 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:18,760 lot of those guys, And I find that interesting mostly 497 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,320 down I can't remember. He might have had a similar background, 498 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,239 but it's the exception. You know. I just find that 499 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,840 kind of thing interesting. Most people would probably find that 500 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:41,199 apurplete nothing. But in any event, uh Ikman had uh 501 00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:46,599 he had more support than people might think. You know, 502 00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:49,480 and again, Ikman the man, he didn't come out as 503 00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:51,599 picking a villainous. He came off as kind of nerdy 504 00:44:53,800 --> 00:45:00,280 and almost a caricature of the meticulous German. But you know, 505 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,000 he at the same time, he didn't come off as 506 00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:16,679 particularly sympathetic or charismatic either. There's a very well renowned 507 00:45:18,119 --> 00:45:27,800 French attorney Ramone and Ramon Jeffree. I'm probably butchering that pronunciation. 508 00:45:28,039 --> 00:45:33,039 But he was a really interesting guy, and he was 509 00:45:33,079 --> 00:45:39,079 a true advocate in the sense that is supposed to 510 00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:41,960 characterize the men who sit at bar as defense council. 511 00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:48,840 He defended a bunch of there's a there's a right 512 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:55,719 wing fascist militia in France. That was some of these 513 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,159 guys were on the side of the Reich. Some of 514 00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:02,719 them weren't. They were sort of like their ideology was 515 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,440 sort of like the action Francis had been under morass, 516 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,199 but obviously the action of Francie didn't have a direct 517 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,239 action capability. But these guys, uh, these guys are real 518 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,800 bomb throwers. And I mean basically they were odds with 519 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,079 with both most of them odds with the Reich and 520 00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:26,840 the Allies. Obviously, but some of them are, you know, 521 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:34,760 national socialists. Jeffrey came to the defense of these guys 522 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:41,599 and defended many of them pro bono, and he made 523 00:46:42,559 --> 00:46:47,559 the case in the court of world opinion, which is 524 00:46:47,599 --> 00:46:51,639 an important point, not just in terms of the due 525 00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:55,239 process of his clients in the era, but as a 526 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,239 matter of historical fact. There was no VC France. There 527 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,239 was France. It's the government in VCI was the government 528 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:09,679 of France. Batan had massed support. De Gaulle had no support. 529 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,880 And this idea that Batan with some client of Adolf 530 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,400 Hitler Baton. I don't know how many times Batan met 531 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:28,719 Adolf Hitler once and but for our purposes, I mean, 532 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,000 that's a discussion another day. I've written some about that, 533 00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:35,280 but I don't think we're ever discussed it on your platforms. 534 00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:39,440 But Jeffree, that was the crux of his defense was 535 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:46,920 not not just of these fascist partisans in the UH 536 00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:52,119 you know, prior to the prior to the ascendency the 537 00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:56,039 Batan government and the capitulation to the Germany, but the 538 00:47:56,079 --> 00:48:00,559 guys who served the Baton's regime. You know how you 539 00:48:01,039 --> 00:48:03,239 can't you can't bring these guys up on charges for 540 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,159 treason when they were serving the government of France at war. 541 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,719 That's perverse as a matter of law. And this idea 542 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,280 that there's a man in exile and de Gaulle, who 543 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,079 nobody'd ever heard of, who is quite literally a client 544 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,199 of a foreign power, declaring himself to be the rightful 545 00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:33,960 president of France. You know, that's that's absurd. And Jeffree 546 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,360 was respected as a one of the pre eminent legal 547 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,559 minds in Europe, and he'd actually sat in an advisory 548 00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:47,760 capacity and the Allied Control Council during uh the Nuremberg 549 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:55,320 trials and then subsequent. His old point was there wasn't 550 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,719 there was anither personal nor subject matter jurisdiction over Eichmann 551 00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:06,000 if he's a the state of Israel. And he said, 552 00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:09,239 even if there was, Israel had a claim to jurisdiction. 553 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:21,000 The correct way to proceed, according to convention and international 554 00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:24,360 law can ever be compulsory, because that's a logical fallacy, 555 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:31,079 among other things. But convention is the source of legitimacy, 556 00:49:31,199 --> 00:49:40,280 particularly we're talking about penal jeopardy, where you know, somebody's 557 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,239 on trial for their life, but also just in terms 558 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:57,239 of due process with respect to any course authority. You know, 559 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,960 the correct protocol would have been to appeal to Argentina 560 00:50:01,079 --> 00:50:09,280 for extradition, and the Israeli rebuttal was that, well, Argentina 561 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,679 famously refuses to extradite people. Okay, well, why is Israel 562 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,280 have jurisdiction over the man of the subject matter? Anyway, 563 00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:20,039 there was no Jewish state between ninety and thirty three 564 00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:23,360 and ninety forty five, and a state. First of all, 565 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,159 you can't you can't be held liable for committing a 566 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,840 for committing crimes against an ethnic group or a race, 567 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:41,719 even if that were possible. Israel isn't the representative of 568 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:53,239 Jewish people the jury for all time. And finally, venue matters. 569 00:50:54,039 --> 00:51:00,079 The alleged offenses were committed in Poland and Belarus, in 570 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:06,800 Ukraine and Russia. You know why why is an Iikman 571 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,519 being hailed into court in Poland? You know? No, none 572 00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:15,760 of this is precedented. None of this can be rationalized 573 00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:23,800 by appeal to precedent or common sense, you know. And finally, 574 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:37,440 Jeffree didn't emphasize this as strongly as Aikman's council did. 575 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:44,639 But Jeffree said, do we really want to start talking 576 00:51:44,679 --> 00:51:48,880 about where the ex of state doctrine ends and where 577 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:55,840 a liability for homicide begins. When you know, the Israeli 578 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:01,239 state was founded quite literally in mass ethnic cleansing, and 579 00:52:03,639 --> 00:52:08,679 the US Department of Justice has proffered the equivalent of 580 00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:18,400 an amica'st curate on behalf of the Jerusalem Court for 581 00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:23,280 this back to their prosecution of Iikman. When this is 582 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,239 the same government, that being the isaaia's government that wage 583 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:33,960 nuclear war against Japanese civilians, you know, that raises some 584 00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:41,239 questions that people probably don't want to address in these terms. 585 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:53,800 But again, the rebuttal was was an appeal to conceptual 586 00:52:53,840 --> 00:53:01,199 prejudices and epistemic priors about the unique and vulnerable situation 587 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:07,079 of the Jewish people and the existential threats they face 588 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:18,559 based on immutable traits that they possess and irrational animosity 589 00:53:18,639 --> 00:53:26,239 that culminates in homicidal programs periodically. There's a whole series 590 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:33,039 of assumptions one must accept in order to consider the 591 00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:41,239 Israeli case for jurisdictions overre Aikmen to be legitimate. But again, 592 00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:46,199 the Aikman trial was the litmus test of these things, 593 00:53:46,679 --> 00:53:53,599 and that's why it's significant and arguably in discrete terms 594 00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:57,199 of respect to the fortunes of the Jewish state. It's 595 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:02,280 absolutely more significant than the Nuremberg Trial. Obviously the former 596 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:09,480 facilitated the latter, but this is basically the appeal. This 597 00:54:09,559 --> 00:54:14,880 is what's being relied upon when you hear about the 598 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,360 special status of the Jewish state or the right to 599 00:54:18,519 --> 00:54:24,119 exist of a Jewish state. This is what it's relying upon. 600 00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:31,920 So I assume people who are into my content don't 601 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,400 do things like ask questions like why does this matter? 602 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,920 Because you wouldn't. You wouldn't be interested in this as 603 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,519 a terror if you had those sorts of objections to it. 604 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:49,599 But if anybody is on deck harbors those concerns, well, 605 00:54:49,679 --> 00:54:52,599 this is why it matters. Okay, this is why it's 606 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:58,079 contextually significant and very concrete capacities, not just as some 607 00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:19,480 sort of curiosity. And that's you know, and that that 608 00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:22,000 so that goes to show too. I mean, I can't imagine, 609 00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:26,400 I mean these days you that there wouldn't you wouldn't 610 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,199 find uh a man who had the kind of prestige 611 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:37,000 of Jeffrey taking such a position contu the Jewish State. 612 00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:43,440 I mean, you'll find Europeans who, to their credit, the 613 00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:51,440 attack the Jewish state for you know, it's uh, it's 614 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:59,159 it's racialism, and it's uh, it's hostility to other populations 615 00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:03,920 and the category violence that avails them too. But that's 616 00:56:05,159 --> 00:56:08,960 that's mostly framed, uh as a matter of you know, 617 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,519 appeal to Nuremberg logic or the or the purported hypocrisy 618 00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:15,960 of the Jewish state. It's really sort of a token objection. 619 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,679 I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not I'm not 620 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:23,760 going to be down on people if they're standing up 621 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:31,480 for our comrades in Palestine or Iran or anywhere else. 622 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:38,360 But I I think you know what I mean, it's 623 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,039 it's it's a fundamentally different scope and character, and the 624 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:58,119 motivations are different. The the prosecution also, they had they 625 00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:06,559 had a problem because initially what they were relying upon, 626 00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:10,760 they were relying upon the direct testimony of people who 627 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:18,760 had been in German concentration camps, and this testimony was 628 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:24,119 contradictory relative to the factual record. Witnesses were contradicting each other. 629 00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:31,360 There were people testifying about things such as gas chambers 630 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:37,599 at the ravens Brook or Dachal. And even then, even 631 00:57:37,639 --> 00:57:41,239 within the narratives that were extant and considered to be 632 00:57:42,639 --> 00:57:49,280 historical as well as legal. President. It was stipulated that 633 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:56,679 you know, there weren't gas chambers at ravens Brook and things. Obviously, Two, 634 00:57:58,039 --> 00:58:03,519 there's the white elephant in the room. If there's a 635 00:58:03,519 --> 00:58:06,079 a witness declaring I was at, I was I was at, 636 00:58:06,159 --> 00:58:08,840 I was at death camp in Meate and this is 637 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,679 what Eikman was directing. If you were at death camp 638 00:58:11,679 --> 00:58:14,679 in meat how are you here? I mean? But was 639 00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:22,639 this the most incommon death camp? Ever? So the prosecution 640 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:33,239 was charged with calling uh, witnesses who'd served in the 641 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:38,960 SS and s D, the most prominent of whom are 642 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:53,000 pretty obviously intelligence assets, are double agents to testify, you know, 643 00:58:53,159 --> 00:59:04,719 contra Iikman and seek to establish liability based on things 644 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,159 like the Einstets group actions they themselves have participated in. 645 00:59:11,599 --> 00:59:18,000 And these guys, uh just you know, there's been a 646 00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:23,880 similar they've been a similar litany of these sorts of 647 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:31,239 witnesses called to testify against Rudolph Hoiss, who's the common 648 00:59:31,239 --> 00:59:34,599 aunt of Oustwitz Berkanhau. And it was the same kind 649 00:59:34,639 --> 00:59:37,639 of thing. You know, I these are the most evil 650 00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:39,840 men who ever lived in their liars, but you've got 651 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:45,960 to trust them and relevant to this testimony. And this 652 00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:50,039 is honestly where a lot of these strange claims come from. 653 00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:57,280 The claim specifically, you know, Hitler demanded that we reduced 654 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:02,039 the population of Slavs to thirty million. Not a single 655 01:00:02,119 --> 01:00:07,000 person has ever said that written that alleged that other 656 01:00:07,079 --> 01:00:13,480 than this bizarre turncoat and probable double agent who testified 657 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:19,679 against Iikman and somehow, despite admitting to participating in the 658 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,639 murders of tens of thounds of people, was never indicted 659 01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:25,719 for any of these things, you know, and that this 660 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,960 is one example. Can see that parodied all the time 661 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,480 on social media, or there'll be some midwid conservatives saying like, well, 662 01:00:32,519 --> 01:00:35,880 you you're saying it's okay to exterminate Slavs. You you 663 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:41,599 anti white horrible man who says that. Some some guy 664 01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:47,400 who's a paid witness against against against off Iikman, some 665 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:53,480 guy who you know, was on the payroll of a 666 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,039 secret intelligence service while he was a serving officer in 667 01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:03,960 the sd I, who is saying these things And you're 668 01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:06,760 just you're just supposed to accept this at face value 669 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:11,360 or something. It's not just boomers either, I know, people 670 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,000 might just wave up like, oh, it's just just boomer people. Shit, No, 671 01:01:14,039 --> 01:01:17,000 I'm talking about like thirty year old guys who know better. 672 01:01:18,039 --> 01:01:21,280 And when they challenge them on these on these grounds, 673 01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,360 they'll say, first I'll say I'm an idiot. Then they'll say, quote, 674 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,199 everybody knows this, and what do then mean? Who's everybody? 675 01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:33,199 And what do they know? You know? So in the 676 01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:40,199 rock is deep and in some ways, as I said, 677 01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:46,760 at least uh in the present conditions, that being you know, 678 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,639 life during wartime, you know, even talking heads son, I'm 679 01:01:51,639 --> 01:01:55,239 not making light of it. It's horrible that our Iranian 680 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:59,639 comrades under assault, but they will prevail. But it's still 681 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,920 it's in all the situations. Not being flippant about it, 682 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,920 but that that's why I wanted to focus on Eichman, 683 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,960 because I think many people don't know this because why 684 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,880 would they. I mean, I know about it because this 685 01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,639 is my this is might doing, my wife, These are 686 01:02:14,639 --> 01:02:19,000 my research concentrations. But I need to go another episode 687 01:02:19,039 --> 01:02:20,440 on this because I want to get into the case 688 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,519 and chief against Eichmann and then we can return to 689 01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:24,880 a regular schedule of programming. If that's okay. 690 01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:32,239 Speaker 1: Sure. I think one of the the special dispensation for 691 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:37,239 the Jewish people is Yep. I'm I'm no fan of 692 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,760 Chris Christie, but I think he's like legitimately a funny guy. 693 01:02:41,559 --> 01:02:43,559 Speaker 2: And no, he is. And he's also a man so 694 01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:45,760 fat that his last name eat his first name. 695 01:02:48,239 --> 01:02:54,719 Speaker 1: But he he tells the story about how the Kushner family, 696 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,639 how he became the enemy of the Kushner family and 697 01:02:58,719 --> 01:03:02,679 it kept him out of the trumpetdministration. And the thing 698 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:07,079 in that story that I just I will never forget, 699 01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:13,719 I'll take to the grave is when he's Jared Kushner 700 01:03:14,039 --> 01:03:19,639 telling Chris Christie that these charges you had brought up 701 01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:22,840 on my father, they shouldn't have been handled legally. You 702 01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,880 should have brought him to the rabbis. 703 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Election fraud, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're not talking about 704 01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,039 you know, you're talking about some minor text issue or something. 705 01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:39,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, election fraud. There was a tax issue. Extortion. 706 01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:42,400 Speaker 2: I mean no, that's I mean a real criminality. It 707 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,519 wasn't just you know, cooking the books a little bit 708 01:03:44,719 --> 01:03:46,760 like unfortunately is kind of the norm. 709 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,960 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I kind of if people you know, 710 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,639 taxation and stuff like that, have a tendency to be like, eh, 711 01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,800 is it really a crime. But you know, these other 712 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,519 things that are just when you hear the whole story 713 01:04:00,559 --> 01:04:03,360 of what Kushner did, it's pretty fucking diabolical. 714 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 2: And yeah, they went. 715 01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you're just supposed to overlook it like 716 01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,199 what you know, like you know, like I said in 717 01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:16,000 the Jeffrey Epsteine Files, you know, the let the Goya 718 01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:17,039 live in the real world. 719 01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:23,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Well, no, that's why I got film people. 720 01:04:23,199 --> 01:04:27,519 I know with al Pacino. You know, Robert Redford directed it, 721 01:04:27,639 --> 01:04:31,480 and it is actually a really subvert, subversive movie, and 722 01:04:31,679 --> 01:04:33,159 they made a lot of people mad. I got very 723 01:04:33,159 --> 01:04:36,800 limited distribution, but I remember when it came out, like 724 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,880 Pacino would start is The Merchant of Venice around the 725 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,480 same time, and al Pacina was awesome, Unlike unlike Faggott, Ritardo, 726 01:04:45,639 --> 01:04:50,960 Robert de Niro, like Pacino actually is an amazing actor, 727 01:04:51,039 --> 01:04:57,039 but he he played Shylock in The Merchant of Venice. 728 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,559 You know, there's a there's kind of a mini Shakespeare 729 01:05:00,559 --> 01:05:04,280 revival in the very early two thousands, asn't she remember. 730 01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,039 So Paccino was like Cardlai heat for, you know, making 731 01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:12,159 all these anti submitted movies. But yeah, I high recommend people. 732 01:05:12,199 --> 01:05:18,079 I know, it's a slow burn but it's it's really compelling. 733 01:05:18,159 --> 01:05:22,760 And you know that was just after there was months 734 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:30,360 after nine to eleven and people who were asking difficult questions. 735 01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,400 To be delicate about it, we're absolutely being drowned out 736 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,239 in this kind of sea of war fever and outrage 737 01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:44,480 and mourning. But there were fractures appearing in the facade 738 01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:45,440 and let me put it badly. 739 01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,880 Speaker 1: Alrighty, So we'll a lot get a part two ready 740 01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,400 for this, and I will remind everybody go go to 741 01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,159 Thomas's work, go to a sub stack. Thomas and I 742 01:05:58,199 --> 01:06:03,039 have started streaming every Thursday afternoon at one o'clock, one 743 01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:05,840 o'clock Central the real the real time zone. 744 01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the show notes if you would. 745 01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:13,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will, and uh go to Thomas's substack real 746 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:18,079 Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com and Thomas 747 01:06:18,159 --> 01:06:21,840 seven seven seven dot com. The t is a seven 748 01:06:22,199 --> 01:06:25,559 and you can connect to him there, and yeah, find 749 01:06:25,599 --> 01:06:27,079 him on substack. It is probably the best way to 750 01:06:27,119 --> 01:06:28,599 get in touch with him. 751 01:06:28,679 --> 01:06:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, thank you, Lenny 752 01:06:31,079 --> 01:06:32,599 Speaker 1: All right, thanks Thomas, appreciate it.