Speaker 1: Welcome back everyone to the deep Dive. This time we're
Speaker 1: taking a close look at Johann Raeberger's book Cybersecurity Attacks,
Speaker 1: Red Team Strategies, a.
Speaker 2: Really practical guide for anyone who wants to know about
Speaker 2: penetration testing and you know, really building a strong security program.
Speaker 1: Definitely. It kind of feels like a masterclass in proactive
Speaker 1: security almost. Yeah, definitely, showing us how to think like
Speaker 1: the attackers would, so we can build, you know, a
Speaker 1: really strong security program exactly.
Speaker 2: And it's all about being prepared and like you said,
Speaker 2: thinking like an attacker, finding those vulnerabilities, but before the bad.
Speaker 1: Guys do before the bad guys exactly. And it's packed
Speaker 1: with so many like real world examples and practical advice.
Speaker 1: It's not just theory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So let's start.
Speaker 1: The very beginning. Sure, what is red teaming? What's the
Speaker 1: core idea behind this in cybersecurity?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: So, and how would you explain it?
Speaker 2: I think the easiest way to think about it is,
Speaker 2: you're basically assembling a team of ethical hackers, okay, whose
Speaker 2: entire mission is to mimic real world attacks, but from
Speaker 2: the good side. So they're probing your defenses, your tech,
Speaker 2: your processes, even like physical security sometimes like a real
Speaker 2: attacker would Wow.
Speaker 1: So it's really like taking that stressed us to the
Speaker 1: next level for your entire security setup.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that kind of begs the question, then, how
Speaker 1: is this different from something like penetration testing, which we've
Speaker 1: all heard of?
Speaker 2: Right? So, pin testing is generally more focused. You know,
Speaker 2: you're zeroing in on a specific system, a specific app
Speaker 2: to find as weaknesses. Red teaming is more I guess
Speaker 2: you could say holistic. It's examining how your entire organization
Speaker 2: responds to a more full blown attack.
Speaker 1: Oh so it's really looking at it from the perspective
Speaker 1: of not just are there bugs in the software, but
Speaker 1: how would a human being actually try to get in
Speaker 1: and exploit those? And then what would happen next.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just about finding like a software bug,
Speaker 2: it's about how your company reacts when you know things
Speaker 2: go south.
Speaker 1: It's about their reflexes exactly to security breaches.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to really test those reflexes, you need a
Speaker 2: dedicated red team, right.
Speaker 1: Okay, But before you even think about who's on the team,
Speaker 1: you need to convince the people up top totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, leadership in is absolutely.
Speaker 1: Critical, Like how do you even begin to get them
Speaker 1: on board?
Speaker 2: Data? Data is your best friend here? Oh good, show
Speaker 2: them those scary data breach numbers, like how much they cost?
Speaker 1: Oh, make it real for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how much it can impact the bottom line, because
Speaker 2: that's what they care about.
Speaker 1: They need to see those dollar signs. Yeah, exactly, and
Speaker 1: be afraid of what's going to happen if they don't
Speaker 1: invest in security.
Speaker 2: Right. And then once they've signed off, you need to
Speaker 2: figure out where the Red team fits.
Speaker 1: Okay, where should it fit?
Speaker 2: Ideally a good degree of independence, Okay, reporting directly to
Speaker 2: like the Blue team, the defenders can actually cause some problems.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, what because remember the Red team is supposed
Speaker 2: to be the devil's advocate, you know, right, the weaknesses
Speaker 2: even if it makes people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: So they need to be able to operate independently without
Speaker 1: any pressure from the people they might be embarrassing.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you got.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about the team itself. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean these are skilled, ethical hackers that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So how do you even find these people?
Speaker 2: That's the million dollar question, right, attracting and keeping great talent.
Speaker 2: It's not just about offering a lot of money, although
Speaker 2: that helps, but you really need to build an environment
Speaker 2: that speaks to their passion, you know, the thrill of this.
Speaker 1: Okay, well what would that look like?
Speaker 2: So things like development opportunities, you know, go into conferences
Speaker 2: and just like a culture of sharing knowledge.
Speaker 1: Right, So building this team is more about understanding what
Speaker 1: motivates them and what gets them excited about cybersecurity than
Speaker 1: just finding someone who can hack.
Speaker 2: Exactly. You need that mindset, that passion.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm guessing not every hacker out there's going to
Speaker 1: be ethical, So how do you filter for that?
Speaker 2: That's where you use scenarios in the interview process. Okay,
Speaker 2: you know, I like to throw out a hypothetical. Ok
Speaker 2: let's say you got to compromise this HR system to
Speaker 2: see if someone can pull out data. Would you download
Speaker 2: your own file, would you access other employee records, or
Speaker 2: you know, would you propose using dummy data?
Speaker 1: So it's like an ethical puzzle exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how they answer tells you a lot about
Speaker 2: their boundaries and how they handle that kind of sensitive information.
Speaker 1: That's super interesting. Yeah, are there any other essential things?
Speaker 1: To consider when putting this team together.
Speaker 2: I think diversity is absolutely key, Okay, and that's something
Speaker 2: that the cybersecurity world struggles with in what way? You
Speaker 2: know it's still a very male dominated field, is it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like globally it's only about eleven percent women.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a really low number.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty shocking.
Speaker 1: Why is diversity so important, especially when bailing a red
Speaker 1: team Because.
Speaker 2: You get more creative and effective solutions when you have
Speaker 2: different perspectives in the room.
Speaker 1: Oh, you don't want everyone thinking the same way exactly.
Speaker 2: That's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1: So you've got your dream team. It's diverse, they're ethical,
Speaker 1: they're ready to go. Yeah, but then you need to
Speaker 1: manage them. What's the challenge in managing a red team?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's about finding that balance, right. You
Speaker 2: want to give clear goals, but also not squash their creativity,
Speaker 2: their freedom to explore. Okay, So regular feedback communication is
Speaker 2: really important building that culture of trust and respect.
Speaker 1: So it's like you're a coach, but you're not dictating
Speaker 1: every move exactly. You want to make sure that they
Speaker 1: feel comfortable coming to you and bouncing ideas off of
Speaker 1: you and not feeling micromanaged.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it.
Speaker 1: This is all sounding pretty intense. Are there any other considerations?
Speaker 2: Well, this field can be really prone to burnout in
Speaker 2: what way? Red teamers are always on edge, you know, right,
Speaker 2: thinking about new threats and how to get ahead of them.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of pressure, it is. Yeah, So a
Speaker 2: healthy team culture, promoting work life balance is essential.
Speaker 1: So really making sure that they can do this job
Speaker 1: long term and not burn out after a year or two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want sustainability, not just a quick burst of energy.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've got your team, they're happy, they're healthy,
Speaker 1: they're ready to go. How do they actually plan a test?
Speaker 1: A Red Team operation?
Speaker 2: It always starts with clearly defined objectives.
Speaker 1: What do you mean?
Speaker 2: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to
Speaker 2: disrupt the system? Are you trying to get to some
Speaker 2: juicy data? Or is it about testing how they respond
Speaker 2: to an incident?
Speaker 1: Right? So you really need to have a plan. It's
Speaker 1: not just about breaking.
Speaker 2: Thing, No, definitely not. You get to simulate a real attack,
Speaker 2: one that actually makes sense for that company.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've established your target, your goals. What happens next?
Speaker 2: Well, then they got to choose their approach.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by approach?
Speaker 2: Think surgical strike versus carpet bombing.
Speaker 1: I like that analogy.
Speaker 2: Ye know. Surgical strike is very focused, very specific objective, okay.
Speaker 2: Carpet bombing is more about throwing everything you got seeing
Speaker 2: what sticks.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you know which one's the right
Speaker 1: way to go?
Speaker 2: It depends. Sometimes you need that precision of a surgical
Speaker 2: strike to test a very specific mechanism, and other times
Speaker 2: that broader approach reveals more systemic weaknesses.
Speaker 1: It's about choosing the right tool for the job exactly. Now.
Speaker 1: Red teams have a real advantage over actual attackers, right
Speaker 1: because they have that home field advantage.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, a huge advantage.
Speaker 1: They know the organization inside and out.
Speaker 2: They know the systems, they know the people. They even
Speaker 2: know the little quirks that nobody documents.
Speaker 1: Right, So they might know about a system that everyone
Speaker 1: forgot about, or a security protocol that nobody's actually following,
Speaker 1: or even like a disgruntled employee that they won't be
Speaker 1: able to manipulate.
Speaker 2: Exactly. All that insider info is gold.
Speaker 1: But what happens is they get caught during an operation.
Speaker 2: It happens, you know, really, and sometimes that can actually
Speaker 2: be really valuable.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: Interesting, because it's a chance to see how the incident
Speaker 2: response team, you know, how they react.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, it shows their strength and weaknesses.
Speaker 2: Exactly, highlights where they need to improve.
Speaker 1: You can't get that from a theoretical exercise.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The key is to view these as learning opportunities.
Speaker 1: Oh, to embrace those mistakes, right, to make them positive.
Speaker 1: And this is where we start talking about purple teaming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, purple teaming is all about cloudberation. The red team
Speaker 2: and the blue team working together, breaking down those silos.
Speaker 1: Instead of working against each other, they're actually joining.
Speaker 2: Forces exactly, sharing knowledge and understanding the threat from both sides.
Speaker 1: How would that actually work.
Speaker 2: They might do joint exercises like threat hunting, where the
Speaker 2: red team shares what they know about attacker tactics and
Speaker 2: then the blue team uses that to strengthen their defenses.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's like they're sparring partners, pushing each other
Speaker 1: to get better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good analogy.
Speaker 1: Now, how does a red team actually know if what
Speaker 1: they're doing is working? How do they measure their effectiveness?
Speaker 2: It's a really good question, right, and there are lots
Speaker 2: of ways to do it. Like what one is just
Speaker 2: tracking what they find. You know, how many vulnerabilities, how
Speaker 2: long it takes them to exploit something. Okay, you know,
Speaker 2: really quantifying.
Speaker 1: The risk so they can go back and say, look,
Speaker 1: we found all these problems. We help make the organization
Speaker 1: more secure exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and these reports can be really useful for justifying budgets, yeah,
Speaker 2: oritizing what needs fixing.
Speaker 1: Oh right, they can say, look, we need more resources
Speaker 1: to do this because it's actually having a real impact.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you get it.
Speaker 1: So it's not just about the technical side of hacking.
Speaker 1: It's about communication, analysis and actually making the organization more secure.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. It's all connected.
Speaker 1: Now, a lot of organizations might be thinking they haven't
Speaker 1: been attacked, right, so maybe there's nothing to worry about.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're doing everything right.
Speaker 2: That's a dangerous assumption. Okay, Why because it creates this
Speaker 2: illusion of control. Oh they think they're secure because they
Speaker 2: haven't been tested properly.
Speaker 1: Oh so red teaming is almost like forcing them to
Speaker 1: confront that reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It shatters the illusion by exposing those weaknesses so
Speaker 2: they can fix them before a real attacker gets in.
Speaker 1: It's like a wake up call exactly.
Speaker 2: Prevention is always better than a cure.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's dive a little deeper into some of
Speaker 1: the tactics that red teams use. Sure, the book talks
Speaker 1: about something called attack graphs. What are those?
Speaker 2: Okay? So attack graphs think of it like a roadmap,
Speaker 2: but for hackers.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It shows how an attacker might try to move through
Speaker 2: your systems, So it's.
Speaker 1: Like a blueprint for how they would attack.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really valuable for the red team to map
Speaker 2: out potential paths.
Speaker 1: Oh, to see how different assets connect and where the vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2: Are exactly, you get it.
Speaker 1: And it can be used for threat modeling, vulnerability analysis,
Speaker 1: even for training your employees on security awareness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. It helps you understand how an attacker thinks.
Speaker 1: Now, the book also mentions threat trees and graphs, Right,
Speaker 1: how are those different from attack graphs.
Speaker 2: Well, attack graphs focus on those specific paths.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Threat trees and graphs take a broader look.
Speaker 1: Oh, Okay.
Speaker 2: They map out all the potential threats, what their impact
Speaker 2: could be.
Speaker 1: So it's like zooming out to see the big picture.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and they often include info about what motivates the attackers,
Speaker 2: what they're capable of and who they're after.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so it's not just about the how, but
Speaker 1: also the why behind an attack.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really important.
Speaker 1: That's a crucial distinction, right, because if you understand the why,
Speaker 1: you can prioritize what to protect and how to defend.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, the book talks about building these conceptual graphs manually, right,
Speaker 1: what does that involve? How does it actually work?
Speaker 2: It's basically a brainstorming session. You know, a bunch of
Speaker 2: security experts getting together, okay, mapping out those scenarios, identifying assets, vulnerabilities,
Speaker 2: all those attacker actions.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to predict what they might.
Speaker 2: Do exactly, and you can use a whiteboard, sticky notes
Speaker 2: just trying to connect the dots.
Speaker 1: That sounds super time consuming though.
Speaker 2: It can be, and that's where automation comes in.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, how does that work.
Speaker 2: There are tools that can scan networks, analyze those configurations,
Speaker 2: find known vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: So it's like perbocharging that brainstorming session with technology exactly.
Speaker 2: It frees up the security teams from more strategic work.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, let's shift gears a little bit and talk
Speaker 1: about measuring how effective a red team's work is sure.
Speaker 1: The book talks about defining things called metrics and KPIs.
Speaker 1: What are those? Can you give me some examples of those?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So there are two main times. Ones that focus
Speaker 2: on the Red team's internal operations, okay, and then ones
Speaker 2: that look at the impact of their work. Give me
Speaker 2: an example, like, an operational kpiah could be the number
Speaker 2: of pen tests they've done. Okay, Well, an impact KPI
Speaker 2: would be how many critical vulnerabilities they found or how
Speaker 2: long it takes to fix them.
Speaker 1: Oh so one's about efficiency and the other ones about
Speaker 1: effectiveness exactly. What about these attack insight dashboards that I
Speaker 1: saw mentioned in the book?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they're really cool.
Speaker 1: What are they?
Speaker 2: Imagine a dashboard that gives you a real time view
Speaker 2: of what's happening in an operation. Okay, you can see
Speaker 2: what phase the attack is, in, which assets have been compromised,
Speaker 2: what techniques are being used.
Speaker 1: So it's like watching the attack unfold live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, super helpful for the Blue team. You know, they
Speaker 2: can observe what's going on, learn those tactics, and adapt
Speaker 2: their defenses in real time.
Speaker 1: Like they're getting a front row seat to a real
Speaker 1: attack exactly. The book also mentioned something called Red Team scores.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are they? So they basically quant to find
Speaker 2: the impact of the findings. Oh, they might assign points
Speaker 2: based on how bad a vulnerability is, how easy it
Speaker 2: is to exploit it, and how what do you damage
Speaker 2: it could do.
Speaker 1: So it helps prioritize what to fix first exactly.
Speaker 2: You want to focus on the things that pose the
Speaker 2: biggest risk, right okay.
Speaker 1: And then I saw burn down charts. Yeah, what are
Speaker 1: those used for?
Speaker 2: They're like visual trackers Okay. In this case, they show
Speaker 2: you how quickly vulnerabilities are being addressed.
Speaker 1: Oh, so you can see if the organization is actually
Speaker 1: fixing the problems that the Red Team finds, right exactly.
Speaker 1: And then there's this blast radius visualization. Yeah, what's that
Speaker 1: and why is it important?
Speaker 2: Well, it shows you the potential fallout if an attack
Speaker 2: is successful. Okay, Like let's say the Red Team got
Speaker 2: hold of a user account. Okay, this visualization would show
Speaker 2: you all the systems they could access, the data they
Speaker 2: could get to.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, it's like a worst case scenario map.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can see the potential domino effect.
Speaker 1: That's important for risk management because then you can really
Speaker 1: understand what's at stake.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Now, one thing the book points out is that using
Speaker 1: simple ratings like critical, high, medium, low to assess risk
Speaker 1: isn't really enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those terms can be subjective.
Speaker 1: Oh okay.
Speaker 2: What one person thinks is critical, another person might say
Speaker 2: is high. And without clear definitions, it's hard to prioritize
Speaker 2: you know where to put your resources.
Speaker 1: So how do you move beyond those simple ratings?
Speaker 2: Then? Well, you could use more quantitative methods like simulations.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, like Monty Carlo simulations.
Speaker 1: Money Carlos simulations.
Speaker 2: That sounds complex, It can be, but it's a powerful tool.
Speaker 2: You basically run thousands of simulations to model different attack
Speaker 2: scenarios and then calculate the impact of each one.
Speaker 1: So you're factoring the likelihood of the attack, how strong
Speaker 1: your defenses are, and what the financial hit would be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You want to make data driven decisions, not
Speaker 2: just gut feeling, right, Data is key, okay.
Speaker 1: The book also mentions meantime metrics. Yeah, what are those?
Speaker 2: So these basically measure how long it takes to do
Speaker 2: certain things, how long to detect an attack, how long
Speaker 2: to fix a vulnerability, how long to recover.
Speaker 1: So you're measuring how quickly you can respond and then
Speaker 1: using that to improve your response times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to be fast and efficient.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay. There's also something called the Threat Response Matrix, right,
Speaker 1: can you explain what that is?
Speaker 2: Basically, it's a playbook, Okay. It lists potential threats, what
Speaker 2: their impact could be, and how the organization wants to respond.
Speaker 1: Oh, so everybody knows what to do if a specific
Speaker 1: threat shows up exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you're under pressure, you need a plan.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Then there's the Test Maturity Model Integration or TMI.
Speaker 1: TMI Okay, I'm not familiar with that.
Speaker 2: It's a framework for evaluating how mature a testing process is. Okay.
Speaker 2: It wasn't designed specifically for security, okay, but a lot
Speaker 2: of the principles apply to red teaming.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how can organizations use this framework to improve
Speaker 1: their red teaming?
Speaker 2: Well, they can assess their processes against the TMMI and
Speaker 2: see where they need to improve.
Speaker 1: So it's like benchmarking themselves against best practices.
Speaker 2: Exactly. You want to make sure your operations are top notch.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sure our listeners are eager to hear about
Speaker 1: some of the more I guess cutting edge red team operations.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely, let's dive into those more innovative and
Speaker 1: challenging exercises.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's start with progressive red teaming, which really pushes
Speaker 2: beyond those traditional methods.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: One example is cryptocurrency mining, oh wow, where red teams
Speaker 2: are simulating attacks designed to basically hijack your computing resources
Speaker 2: to make money.
Speaker 1: So instead of stealing data, they're stealing your processing power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, they're using your resources for their own profit.
Speaker 1: That's a big concern for organizations today.
Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, it can be really expensive, slow down
Speaker 2: your systems, even damage your hardware.
Speaker 1: What are some other types of progressive red teaming operations?
Speaker 2: Another area is red teaming for privacy violations. Okay, so
Speaker 2: you're testing the defenses against attacks that are trying to
Speaker 2: steal or misuse personal data.
Speaker 1: So basically making sure you're complying with things like GDPR.
Speaker 2: Exactly. They might simulate attacks that exploit weaknesses in data protection.
Speaker 1: So you might find out that your web app is
Speaker 1: insecure or your database isn't configured properly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You're finding those hidden risks that companies might
Speaker 2: not even be aware of.
Speaker 1: It's all about being proactive, right, finding the problem before
Speaker 1: it becomes a bigger problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Are there any other progressive red team exercises that you
Speaker 1: think are worth mentioning?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Another big one is attacking AI and machine learning systems.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting.
Speaker 2: So these are systems that are becoming more and more common, right,
Speaker 2: and we're starting to see the vulnerabilities in them.
Speaker 1: What kind of vulnerabilities?
Speaker 2: Well, one example is what's called data poisoning. Okay, Attackers
Speaker 2: try to manipulate the data that's used to train the
Speaker 2: AI models, so.
Speaker 1: Like introducing biases or errors that make the AI make
Speaker 1: bad decisions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And it can be really hard.
Speaker 1: To detect, right, because you're not breaking into a system,
Speaker 1: You're just manipulating the data that the.
Speaker 2: System uses, right, You're tricking the AI.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that's a whole new level of complexity, it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What other AI related attacks are red teams simulating?
Speaker 2: There's also something called adversarial machine learning, where they create
Speaker 2: inputs that are designed to fool the AI models, make
Speaker 2: them misclassified data.
Speaker 1: So it's like an optical illusion for AI.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: They can bypass security, manipulate markets, even control physical systems exactly.
Speaker 2: It's a serious concern.
Speaker 1: So what can organizations do to protect themselves from this?
Speaker 2: Well, it's a constantly evolving area, right, But some things
Speaker 2: they can do are implement robust data validation okay, develop
Speaker 2: more resilient models, and just stay up to date on
Speaker 2: the latest threats.
Speaker 1: So red teaming is crucial here too, right, because they
Speaker 1: can help you understand the weaknesses in your AI system.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, They're essential for staying ahead of the curve
Speaker 2: in this area.
Speaker 1: Okay. Any other innovative exercises.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one called operation Vigilanting Operation vigilante, okay, where
Speaker 2: the red team goes beyond just finding vulnerabilities Okay, they
Speaker 2: actually fix them.
Speaker 1: Wait, so they're not just pointing out the problems, they're
Speaker 1: actually solving them exactly.
Speaker 2: They're taking more proactive approach.
Speaker 1: That blurs the line between red teaming and being like
Speaker 1: a system administrator.
Speaker 2: It does, yeah, but it can be a really effective
Speaker 2: way to address vulnerabilities quickly.
Speaker 1: So it's good for organizations that are maybe struggling to
Speaker 1: keep up with patching and fixing things. Yeah, exactly, But
Speaker 1: how do you make sure the blue team knows what's
Speaker 1: going on?
Speaker 2: Transparency is key. The red team has to document everything. Okay,
Speaker 2: share that info with the Blue team so they can
Speaker 2: update their defenses.
Speaker 1: So everybody's in the loop exactly, no surprises. Okay. Now
Speaker 1: let's talk about situational awareness and knowledge graphs. Sure, what
Speaker 1: are those and how are they important for red teaming?
Speaker 2: Well, a knowledge graph think of it like a map, okay,
Speaker 2: but for your organization's cybersecurity.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It shows you the relationships between different assets, users, vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: So it's like a Google Maps for your secure scurity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: And the Red team can use that to find potential
Speaker 1: attack paths exactly. It's super helpful for THREP modeling, vulnerability analysis,
Speaker 1: responding to incidents.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's can to be more and more important as
Speaker 2: a tax get more sophisticated.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you actually create these knowledge graphs.
Speaker 2: You can do it manually, but it takes forever and
Speaker 2: it's not always accurate. Right, So the book talks about
Speaker 2: using something called graph databases like Neo four J.
Speaker 1: Neo four J. What's that.
Speaker 2: It's a database that's specifically designed to store and query
Speaker 2: graph data. Okay, it's really good at handling complex relationships. Oh, okay,
Speaker 2: create nodes that represent things like users, systems, vulnerabilities, and
Speaker 2: then you connect them with relationships that define how they're connected.
Speaker 1: So you're building this virtual map of how everything is
Speaker 1: interconnected exactly.
Speaker 2: And because of the database, you can ask questions like
Speaker 2: what systems can this user access okay, or what vulnerabilities
Speaker 2: are on this system and NEO four J can answer
Speaker 2: that instantly. That's powerful, it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how does this help the Red team?
Speaker 2: It helps them plan and execute attacks more effectively. They
Speaker 2: can find systems with sensitive data or systems that are
Speaker 2: vulnerable to specific.
Speaker 1: Attacks, so they can prioritize their targets exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What about the Blue team? Does this help them too?
Speaker 2: Definitely? It helps them detect threats okay, by identifying unusual
Speaker 2: user activity or system behavior that could indicate an attack.
Speaker 1: So they're using it to find anomalies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: It sounds like knowledge graphs are a game changer for
Speaker 1: both sides.
Speaker 2: They really are.
Speaker 1: We talked about how they can show relationships between assets, users,
Speaker 1: but what about vulnerabilities. How do those fit into this model?
Speaker 2: Vulnerabilities are nodes too, just like users and systems. Okay,
Speaker 2: you connect them to system nodes to show which systems
Speaker 2: are affected.
Speaker 1: So like, you could have a node for a buffer
Speaker 1: overflow vulnerability and connect that to all the systems running
Speaker 1: software that's vulnerable to.
Speaker 2: That exactly, then you can quickly see which systems are
Speaker 2: at the highest risk.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, Now let's talk about something
Speaker 1: called credential hunting. What are some of the techniques that
Speaker 1: red teams use to find those sensitive credentials within an organization?
Speaker 2: So, credential hunting is all about finding the keys to
Speaker 2: the kingdom, right, those passwords, those access tokens that unlock everything.
Speaker 1: Right, like the ultimate goal of a hacker exactly. So
Speaker 1: how do they do it?
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with a simple one. Searching for common patterns.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Literally searching for passwords that might be stored in plain text.
Speaker 2: People do that more often than you think. Yeah. Really,
Speaker 2: They look through configuration files, source codes, scripts, documents anywhere
Speaker 2: that might have passwords. Wow. They search for keywords like passwords, secret,
Speaker 2: API key.
Speaker 1: It sounds so simple, but it works.
Speaker 2: It does, yees, especially when people don't follow good security practices.
Speaker 1: Okay, now there are more sophisticated techniques, right, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, what else can they do?
Speaker 2: On One is to use indexing.
Speaker 1: Indexing, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Know how operating systems and applications index things to make
Speaker 2: searches faster. Well, red teams can use that to their advantage. Okay,
Speaker 2: how they can query the index and search for keywords
Speaker 2: like password across all the files.
Speaker 1: So they're using the system's own tools against itself exactly.
Speaker 1: So if you're on Windows, for example, what would they use.
Speaker 2: They could use PowerShell to query the Windows Search index
Speaker 2: oct and find anything that has the word password in it.
Speaker 1: What about on mac OS and Linux?
Speaker 2: Oh, they have tools too. macOS has Spotlight, which indexes files,
Speaker 2: and Linux has rep and find.
Speaker 1: So no matter what system you're on, they can find
Speaker 1: those hidden credentials pretty much.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now you can get even more specific, right, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: what about techniques that target particular applications or systems?
Speaker 2: Right? So one example is analyzing process.
Speaker 1: Memory process memory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when an application is running, its code and data
Speaker 2: are loaded into memory. Okay, and that memory can contain
Speaker 2: things like passwords, API keys, encryption keys.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so they're looking for the stuff that's actually
Speaker 1: in use exactly.
Speaker 2: They can dump the memory and then search through it
Speaker 2: for credentials.
Speaker 1: It's bypassing all the usual security stuff like file encryption.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a powerful technique because they're getting the data
Speaker 2: in its most vulnerable state. Wow. Okay, And there are
Speaker 2: other memory based techniques too, like what they can abuse
Speaker 2: logging mechanisms.
Speaker 1: How does that work?
Speaker 2: Well? Applications and systems often keep logs of what they're.
Speaker 1: Doing, right, for debugging or auditing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but those logs can sometimes contain sensitive information oh okay,
Speaker 2: like passwords or encryption keys. So red teams can manipulate
Speaker 2: these logs to capture that data.
Speaker 1: So they're turning logging, which is supposed to be a
Speaker 1: security feature, into a vulnerability exactly.
Speaker 2: They're turning the system against itself.
Speaker 1: Are there any examples of this on Windows?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something called event tracing for Windows or etw Okay,
Speaker 2: developers create detailed logs, okay, but red teams can sometimes
Speaker 2: hijack those logs and get passwords and encryption keys.
Speaker 1: Wow. That's sneaky, it is. Yeah, it sounds like red
Speaker 1: teams need to be incredibly creative.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, thinking outside the box's key.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now, what about spoofing credential prompts? Is that something
Speaker 1: they do.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a classic.
Speaker 1: How does that work?
Speaker 2: They create fake login windows that look just like the
Speaker 2: real ones? Oh wow, So the user thinks they're entering
Speaker 2: their password into a legitimate.
Speaker 1: System, but they're actually giving it to the attacker exactly.
Speaker 1: And how do they deliver these fake prompts.
Speaker 2: They might use phishing emails or malicious websites.
Speaker 1: Oh so they're relying on people clicking on things they shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, social engineering is a big part of it.
Speaker 1: So even a security conscious person might fall for.
Speaker 2: This absolutely if it's done well, it can be very convincing.
Speaker 2: That's a little scary, Yeah it is. But there are
Speaker 2: things you can do to protect yourself. What always double
Speaker 2: check the url of any website that asks for your password.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, make sure it's the real site.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wary of any unexpected prompts for your password.
Speaker 1: Okay, good advice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now the book also mentions password spring.
Speaker 2: Right, what's that? So it's a way to bypass a
Speaker 2: lot of those brute force protections. Instead of trying a
Speaker 2: ton of passwords against one account, Okay, they try a
Speaker 2: few common passwords against a lot of accounts.
Speaker 1: So it's like they're casting a wider net hoping to
Speaker 1: catch those users who have weak passwords.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, they might use a list of the top
Speaker 2: one hundred most common passwords and try those against thousands
Speaker 2: of accounts.
Speaker 1: Oh so, because they're only trying a few passwords per account, right,
Speaker 1: it's less likely to trigger any alarms.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it flies under the radar.
Speaker 1: Clever it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's a good defense against this. What's that
Speaker 2: multi factor authentication?
Speaker 1: Oh right, that extra layer of security.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even if they get the password, they still need
Speaker 2: that second factor.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now we've talked a lot about the offensive side of
Speaker 1: red teaming, right, but the book also talks about protecting
Speaker 1: the red team themselves.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's really important.
Speaker 1: Why is that so important? I mean, there are the attackers.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't they be able to protect themselves.
Speaker 2: Well, they can become targets too, really, Yeah, they have
Speaker 2: access to sensitive information, they use powerful tools, so other
Speaker 2: attackers might try to go after them.
Speaker 1: So they're like high value targets in the cybersecurity world.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, so protecting them should be a top priority.
Speaker 1: So what can you actually do to protect them?
Speaker 2: It starts with the basics, you know, securing their machines.
Speaker 1: Okay, so strong passwords, firewalls, all that good stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the things we tell everyone else to do.
Speaker 2: They need to do it too, right, and.
Speaker 1: They shouldn't be using those machines for personal stuff.
Speaker 2: Definitely not, that's just asking for trouble.
Speaker 1: The book also mentions improving documentation. Right, why is that
Speaker 1: important for security?
Speaker 2: Well, it helps them keep track of what they're doing. Oh,
Speaker 2: they can share information with each other, and it provides
Speaker 2: evidence of their findings. So it's like an audit trail exactly,
Speaker 2: and it can protect them if anyone ever questions their actions.
Speaker 1: Oh right, it's like proof of what they did and
Speaker 1: why they did it exactly. And one way to improve
Speaker 1: documentation is to customize those shell prompts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1: Can you explain what that is for people who might
Speaker 1: not know.
Speaker 2: So the shell prompt is that text you see on
Speaker 2: the command line right where you type in commands. Okay.
Speaker 2: Red teamers can customize it to include things like the date,
Speaker 2: the time, the username, the host name, the directory they're in.
Speaker 1: So it's automatically adding all this information to their commands.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Basically, so if.
Speaker 1: Someone needs to review their actions, it's all right there exactly.
Speaker 2: It's like a built in log Okay.
Speaker 1: What other tips does the book give for protecting the
Speaker 1: Red team?
Speaker 2: Well, monitoring log in attempts is a big one.
Speaker 1: Okay. So if someone tries to log into their machine,
Speaker 1: they'll get alerted exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if it's from a weird location or at
Speaker 2: a strange time.
Speaker 1: It's like a trip wire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it now.
Speaker 1: I found it interesting that the book encourages Red teams
Speaker 1: to learn from the Blue team.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Why is that? Well?
Speaker 2: Red teams and Blue teams often have very different perspectives.
Speaker 1: Right, one's attacking, one's defending.
Speaker 2: Exactly, but they can learn a lot from each other.
Speaker 1: So breaking down those silos can actually make both sides stronger.
Speaker 2: Definitely. Red teams can learn from the tools and strategies
Speaker 2: that blue teams use.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, how does that help them?
Speaker 2: Well, for example, blue teams use something called centralized monitoring solutions.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: These collect security data from all over the organization.
Speaker 1: Okay, so instead of looking at logs on individual machines,
Speaker 1: you have everything in one place.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It gives you a bird's eye view.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how does this benefit the Red team.
Speaker 2: Well, if they understand how these systems work, okay, they
Speaker 2: can design attacks that are more likely to go undetected.
Speaker 1: So it's like knowing how the enemy thinks, so you
Speaker 1: can outsmart them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's all about strategy.
Speaker 1: What are some specific tools that the book recommends red
Speaker 1: teams should learn.
Speaker 2: Two big ones are Oscary and the Elastic Search Stack.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's start with Oscary. What is that?
Speaker 2: So? Oscary is really cool?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It lets you query your operating system like it's a database.
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting, and get.
Speaker 2: All sorts of information like running processes, network connections, user accounts,
Speaker 2: hardware details.
Speaker 1: So it's like having this super powerful search engine for
Speaker 1: your computer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: How would a red team use it?
Speaker 2: Well, they can use it for reconnaissance, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: gathering information about the target system. But they can also
Speaker 2: use it after they've compromised a system, oh, to dig
Speaker 2: deeper and find new targets.
Speaker 1: So it's useful at multiple stages of an attack.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's a versatile tool.
Speaker 1: Okay. What about the Elastic Search Stack.
Speaker 2: So, elastic search is a set of open source tools
Speaker 2: for working with data. Okay, it's used a lot by
Speaker 2: Blue teams for log management, security monitoring, threat hunting.
Speaker 1: So it's about making sense of all that data.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Security generates tons of data, and elastic search
Speaker 2: helps you make sense of it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how can Red teams benefit from understanding elastic search.
Speaker 2: Well, if they know how Blue teams use it to
Speaker 2: detect attacks, Okay, they can figure out ways to avoid detection.
Speaker 1: So it's like learning the enemy's playbook exactly.
Speaker 2: You got to know their moves to counter them.
Speaker 1: Now, let's move on to something I find really interesting. Sure, traps, deceptions,
Speaker 1: and honey pots.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, those are fun.
Speaker 1: They're all about deception.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, you're trying to trick the attackers into revealing themselves.
Speaker 1: Okay, can you give me some concrete example.
Speaker 2: Sure, So a honeypot file okay, is basically a fake
Speaker 2: file that looks like it has valuable.
Speaker 1: Information okay, like passwords or financial data.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something that an attacker would be interested in, right,
Speaker 2: and you place it somewhere they're likely to look.
Speaker 1: So it's like bait.
Speaker 2: Exactly, And when they take the bait and open the file,
Speaker 2: it triggers an alert.
Speaker 1: Oh so you know someone snooping around exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No. What about traps? Are they different from honeypot files?
Speaker 2: Yeah, traps are more active. They might be scripts or
Speaker 2: programs that execute when an attacker does something specific, so.
Speaker 1: Like trying to access a certain file.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, it's like a trip wire okay, And when
Speaker 2: the trap is triggered, it logs what they did, maybe
Speaker 2: even blocks their access.
Speaker 1: So it's not just detecting them, it's actually doing something to.
Speaker 2: Stop them, right, it's more defensive.
Speaker 1: What about deceptions, how do those work?
Speaker 2: Well? You create fake assets that look real okay, like
Speaker 2: a decoy web server, a fake database, even a made
Speaker 2: up user account.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to distract them, lead them down the
Speaker 1: wrong path exactly.
Speaker 2: You want to waste their time and get them away
Speaker 2: from the real stuff.
Speaker 1: So once you've set up these traps and honeypots and everything,
Speaker 1: how do you actually monitor them?
Speaker 2: Well, operating systems have arditing features okay, what are those?
Speaker 2: They track certain events like file access, process creation, network connections.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: You can use these features to watch the decoys and
Speaker 2: see if anyone interacts with them.
Speaker 1: So you're looking for any signs that someone is touching something.
Speaker 1: They shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you're looking for those red flags on Windows?
Speaker 1: How would you do that?
Speaker 2: You can use the security audit policy okay, and set
Speaker 2: it to track specific events, so if someone tries to
Speaker 2: open a honeypot file, you'll see it in the logs.
Speaker 1: What about on other systems like mac os and Linux?
Speaker 2: They have similar features. Mac Os has audit policies okay,
Speaker 2: and Linux has audit So no.
Speaker 1: Matter what system you're using, you can monitor these decoys.
Speaker 2: Yeah you can.
Speaker 1: Are there any tools that can help with this?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, tons of them. They are open source tools,
Speaker 2: commercial tools, things like the Elastic Search Stack, Splunk Oscary, so.
Speaker 1: They can analyze all those logs and alert you if
Speaker 1: something suspicious happen.
Speaker 2: Exactly. They make your life a lot easier.
Speaker 1: So you've set up your honeypot file, you're monitoring it.
Speaker 1: How do you actually get alerted if someone tries to
Speaker 1: open it?
Speaker 2: Well, the good old fashioned email is still reliable, okay.
Speaker 2: Most people check their email regularly. It's a simple way
Speaker 2: to send notifications.
Speaker 1: But there are other ways too, right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you can use desktop notifications okay, those pop
Speaker 2: up messages you see on your screen, they're hard to
Speaker 2: mess there's a little alarm going on, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can also tie those alerts into something called SIME systems.
Speaker 2: Right. What are so SIM stands for Security Information and
Speaker 2: Event Management.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: They're systems that collect and analyze security data from all
Speaker 2: over the place. Okay, and they can trigger automated responses. Oh.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: So let's say someone accesses your honeypot file, the SIGN
Speaker 2: system could automatically block their IP address.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's impressive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really powerful for containing attacks quickly.
Speaker 1: It's like having a digital security guard that reacts instantly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good analogy.
Speaker 1: Now, we talked about how red teams can learn from
Speaker 1: blue teams by understanding those centralized monitoring solutions. Can you
Speaker 1: give me some more specifics on how that helps them
Speaker 1: be more effective?
Speaker 2: Sure? So, one thing they can learn is how to
Speaker 2: blend in with normal network traffic.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: They can make their attacks look less suspicious so they
Speaker 2: don't stand out. Exactly. They can also learn how to
Speaker 2: modify law files oh wow, to cover.
Speaker 1: Their tracks so it's like they are never there.
Speaker 2: Right, And they can even find ways to exploit weaknesses
Speaker 2: in those monitoring tools.
Speaker 1: It's like turning the tables.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about knowing how the other side thinks.
Speaker 1: Now, could Red teams actually use those same tools that
Speaker 1: blue teams use to protect their own infrastructure?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, they can, really. Yeah. They might use oscary to
Speaker 2: monitor their own systems okay, to make sure nobody's trying
Speaker 2: to attack them, right, And they might use elastic search
Speaker 2: to analyze their own logs.
Speaker 1: So it's like using the enemy's weapons against them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a way.
Speaker 1: But it also shows that both teams are really working
Speaker 1: towards the same goal exactly.
Speaker 2: They both want to improve security.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now we focus a lot on the technical side, right,
Speaker 1: but the book also emphasizes the human element.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's crucial.
Speaker 1: What are some of the things to consider when it
Speaker 1: comes to the people involved in red teaming?
Speaker 2: Well, the Red team needs to be aware of the
Speaker 2: impact their actions can have other people targeting.
Speaker 1: Okay, what do you mean.
Speaker 2: These exercises can be stressful, you know, right, so falls
Speaker 2: for a phishing attack, they might feel.
Speaker 1: Embarrassed, right, they might feel like they failed.
Speaker 2: Exactly, So it's important to do these exercises in a
Speaker 2: way that minimizes that negative impact.
Speaker 1: So be sensitive and provide support afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You want to help people learn from the experience.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now what about the Red Team members themselves?
Speaker 2: Right, So they're also vulnerable. They're under pressure, they handle
Speaker 2: sensitive information, they use powerful.
Speaker 1: Tools, so they could be targeted by attackers.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, they could be victims of social engineering, phishing, even blackmail.
Speaker 1: So you need to protect them too.
Speaker 2: Exactly how do you do that? Security awareness training is
Speaker 2: really important, Okay. They need to know how to spot
Speaker 2: and avoid those threats.
Speaker 1: So training that's tailored to the risks they face.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: What else can you do?
Speaker 2: Give them ways to report suspicious activity okay, and to
Speaker 2: seek help if they need it.
Speaker 1: So it's about creating a culture of security that includes
Speaker 1: the Red Team exactly.
Speaker 2: They need to feel supported.
Speaker 1: Now, one of the biggest challenges in cybersecurity is staying
Speaker 1: ahead of the curve.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: How can Red Teams keep up with all the new
Speaker 1: threats and vulnerabilities?
Speaker 2: Well, one way is to be active in the security community. Okay,
Speaker 2: you know, go to conferences, read blogs, participate in online forums.
Speaker 2: So learn from other people exactly, and share your own
Speaker 2: knowledge too.
Speaker 1: Right, it's a two way street, it is. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: else can they do?
Speaker 2: They need to develop their own tools and techniques.
Speaker 1: Okay. Why is that so important?
Speaker 2: Because the attacks are always changing, right, If you just
Speaker 2: rely on the existing tools, you'll be fall behind.
Speaker 1: So you need to be innovative exactly.
Speaker 2: You need to think like an attacker.
Speaker 1: Now that sounds really challenging.
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, but it's also really rewarding.
Speaker 1: What kind of skills do you need to be a
Speaker 1: good RED tumor.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously you need strong technical skills okay, like what
Speaker 2: understanding operating systems, networks, programming, But you also need creativity
Speaker 2: and problem solving skills.
Speaker 1: You need to be able to think outside the box exactly.
Speaker 2: You need to see things that other people miss.
Speaker 1: And I imagine teamwork is important too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, crucial. You can't do this alone.
Speaker 1: You need to be able to communicate, share knowledge, learn
Speaker 1: from each other.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, one specific area that RED teams often target is
Speaker 1: active directory. Right, what is that and why is it
Speaker 1: such a popular target? So?
Speaker 2: Active directory is MICROSOFTS Directory service for Windows networks.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It's basically a database that stores info about users, computers,
Speaker 2: other resources. Okay, and it handles authentication and authorization, so
Speaker 2: it controls who has access.
Speaker 1: To what it's like the central nervous system of the network.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: And if you control active directory, you control.
Speaker 2: Everything pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what are some of the tactics that red teams
Speaker 1: use to attack it?
Speaker 2: One common one is credential dumping okay. They use tools
Speaker 2: to extract passwords from the database okay, and they also
Speaker 2: try to exploit vulnerabilities in the services that act to
Speaker 2: directory uses, like herberos.
Speaker 1: So they're finding ways to bypass the security exactly.
Speaker 2: They're looking for weaknesses.
Speaker 1: Another tactic you mentioned is privilege escalation. What's that?
Speaker 2: So that's where they try to gain higher levels of
Speaker 2: access Okay. They might start with a regular user account okay,
Speaker 2: but they use various techniques to try to get administrator privileges.
Speaker 1: So they're working their way up the ladder exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and once they're an administrator, they can do pretty
Speaker 2: much anything.
Speaker 1: That's scary, yeah it is. So what can organizations do
Speaker 1: to protect their active directory?
Speaker 2: Strong passwords, multi factor authentication, keep everything.
Speaker 1: Patched, the usual stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's basic but important.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: They can also segment their network okay, so if one
Speaker 2: part gets compromised, it doesn't affect the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So it's about limiting the damage exactly. Now a lot
Speaker 1: of organizations are moving to the cloud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big trend.
Speaker 1: What are some of the unique challenges for RED teams
Speaker 1: when it comes to cloud security.
Speaker 2: Well, one big difference is the shared responsibility model. Okay,
Speaker 2: the cloud provider is responsible for some things and the
Speaker 2: customer is responsible for others.
Speaker 1: So it's a partnership.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it can get.
Speaker 1: Confusing, right, who's in charge of what?
Speaker 2: Exactly? So RED teams need to understand that to test
Speaker 2: things properly.
Speaker 1: It's like sharing an apartment. You need to know who's
Speaker 1: supposed to clean what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good analogy.
Speaker 1: What other challenges are there?
Speaker 2: Well, cloud environments are constantly changing. Resources can be created
Speaker 2: and deleted very quickly.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so it's like trying to hit a moving
Speaker 1: target exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. RED teams need to adapt their tools and techniques.
Speaker 1: What are some of the tools they use.
Speaker 2: Well, one important one is Cloud Security Posture Management or CSPM.
Speaker 1: Okay, what's that.
Speaker 2: It's a tool that helps organizations assess their cloud security.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: It looks for misconfigurations and vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: So it's like an automated security check.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good way to think about it and.
Speaker 1: How to red team use it.
Speaker 2: They use it to find weaknesses okay, and then they
Speaker 2: design at tax that exploit those weaknesses.
Speaker 1: So they're finding the cracks in the armor exactly.
Speaker 2: They're looking for the easy ways in.
Speaker 1: What other techniques do they use, Well, there's cloud penetration testing.
Speaker 2: It's like regular penetration testing, right, but specifically for cloud environments.
Speaker 1: Okay, but the cloud is so different you must need
Speaker 1: special skills for that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, you need to understand things like serverleist, computing, containerization,
Speaker 2: micro services.
Speaker 1: There's a whole different set of technologies it is. Yeah, Now,
Speaker 1: I know this field is always changing, right, What are
Speaker 1: some of the emerging trends in red teaming that we
Speaker 1: should keep an eye on.
Speaker 2: Well, one big one is automation, Okay. Red teams are
Speaker 2: automating more and more tasks.
Speaker 1: So they can do more in less time.
Speaker 2: Exactly. They can scan for vulnerabilities faster, develop exploits quicker.
Speaker 1: So it's all about efficiency.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Basically, thread intelligence is becoming more important okay. Red
Speaker 2: teams are using it to make their attacks more realistic.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're tailoring their attacks to mimic real world threats.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're learning from what the bad guys are actually.
Speaker 2: Doing, right, that makes their exercises more valuable.
Speaker 1: Okay, any other trends.
Speaker 2: Artificial intelligence is starting to play a role, Oh wow,
Speaker 2: really Yeah, it's early days, okay, but Red teams are
Speaker 2: using AI to automate tasks, analyze data, even create new attacks.
Speaker 1: So it's like AI is becoming a tool for both
Speaker 1: the attackers and the defenders.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, it's going to change the game. What else,
Speaker 2: attack surface management is becoming a bigger focus.
Speaker 1: What's that.
Speaker 2: It's about reducing the number of ways that an attacker
Speaker 2: can get in Okay. Red teams can help organizations identify
Speaker 2: those weaknesses and prioritize them.
Speaker 1: So it's about being proactive, not just waiting for an
Speaker 1: attack to happen.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. And finally, purple teaming is gaining more traction.
Speaker 1: Right where the Red team and Blue team work together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they share knowledge, they learn from each other.
Speaker 1: So it's a more collaborative approach to security.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's about breaking down those silos and working as
Speaker 2: a team.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, Now, This has
Speaker 1: been a really fascinating discussion.
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: I'm sure our listeners have learned a lot, I hope so.
Speaker 1: But for someone who might be new to all this,
Speaker 1: what's the one key takeaway they should remember?
Speaker 2: Security is a journey, not a destination. Okay, there's no
Speaker 2: such thing as perfect security. It's about constantly evaluating your risks,
Speaker 2: finding your weaknesses, and improving your defenses.
Speaker 1: So it's about being proactive exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, always be one step ahead.
Speaker 1: It's a continuous process of improvement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and red teaming is a big part of that.
Speaker 1: Now, what about organizations that are thinking, Okay, this all
Speaker 1: sounds great, but we can't afford a dedicated red team.
Speaker 2: You don't necessarily need a full blown team to get started.
Speaker 1: Okay, what would you recommend them start.
Speaker 2: By just thinking like a red teamer?
Speaker 1: How do you do that?
Speaker 2: Look at your own security with a critical eye, ask
Speaker 2: yourself those tough questions like what what are the things
Speaker 2: you really need to protect? Okay, how would someone try
Speaker 2: to attack you? Where are the weak spots in your defenses?
Speaker 1: So put yourself in the attacker shoes.
Speaker 2: Exactly, see things from their perspective.
Speaker 1: You don't need fancy tools.
Speaker 2: For that right, not at all. There are free tools
Speaker 2: out there, open source scanners, penetration testing tools.
Speaker 1: She can get started without spending a lot of money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do. Stay informed, that's huge, Okay. Read security blogs,
Speaker 2: go to webinars, follow the.
Speaker 1: Experts, keep up with the latest threats.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Knowledge is power.
Speaker 1: So it's about continuous learning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, always be learning.
Speaker 1: This has been a really insightful conversation. Have Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure our listeners have a lot to think about, hopefully,
Speaker 1: but before we go, what's the one thing you'd like
Speaker 1: them to remember? The most important takeaway from the book.
Speaker 2: Red Teaming is so much more than just hacking. It's
Speaker 2: about challenging those assumptions, finding those hidden weaknesses, and always
Speaker 2: pushing the boundaries of security.
Speaker 1: So it's about being proactive and staying ahead.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Johann Reeberger's book Cybersecurity Attacks, Red Team Strategies is a
Speaker 1: fantastic guide for anyone who wants to build a strong
Speaker 1: security program.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so must read.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on this deep dive.
Speaker 2: It was my pleasure and.
Speaker 1: For our listeners, remember, think like an attacker, but defend
Speaker 1: like a pro.
Speaker 2: Couldn't have said it better myself.
Speaker 1: Until next time, stay curious, and keep exploring