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Speaker 1: The following presentation is a Del Marvis Studio's production. You're

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listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network.

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Speaker 2: Here is your host s George Hobbs.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back truth Seekers from around the world. It's time

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for another edition of our classic audio series, and tonight

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we're going back to nineteen ninety two. It's Colonel L.

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Fletcher Prouty and he's discussing the JFK Assassination in America's

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clandestine history. It's a really great listener. It runs about

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an hour and twenty minutes. You'll truly enjoy this. He

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really deep dives into the JFK assassination and the Vietnam War.

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Very very good listen. Hey, just a reminder, I'm not

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sure if we're going to be having a podcast this week.

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It's obviously a truncated week with the holiday Independence Day,

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and I hope everybody has a great Independence Day. Please

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be safe if you're handling fireworks. If not, we'll see

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you the following week. God bless each and every one

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of you. Have a great week. And without any further ado,

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here is L. Fletcher Prouty.

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Speaker 4: Since Oliver Stone's movie has just swept across the country,

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we've had so many alternative requests from meetings, and of

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course when Stone is traveling, that's where we go. So

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last night we were in Cambridge at the John F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Center School.

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Speaker 4: Of Government at Harvard, and we had a terrific crowd there.

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So the alternative is to try to do the best

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we can to send the program out there to our

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friends by means of film. And I'm delighted to have

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you here, who we're old friends. We understand the subject together,

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and we'll try to talk about these important things that

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the film is bringing to today. Over ten million people

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have already seen JFK by Oliver Stone.

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Speaker 5: I know in the JFK film by Oliver Stone, there's

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a character portrayed by Donald Sutherland who has a meeting

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in Washington.

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Speaker 2: D C. With a mister X.

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Speaker 5: And I wanted people who've seen the film to realize

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that mister X is based on large part, in a

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large part, on your career. And I thought i'd let

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them know then who mister X is, and who Colonel

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Fletcher Prouty is and the work that you've done. And

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so I'd like to start by asking you about your

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background in the US military. When did you enlist and

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what was your training and what duty did you do?

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Speaker 2: Did you see combat? What were your jobs in the military.

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Speaker 4: When Oliver Stone came to me for Stadium's going to

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do the film, he had seen some things I wrote

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about my career in the service, and it tied in

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rather tightly. But I started before Pearl Harbor in nineteen

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forty one as an actual horse cavalryman, which not too

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many people today can look back to. And I served

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after that when we got rid of the horses in

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nineteen forty one, in the tanks, and actually served under

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General Abrams, who later became our senior officer in Vietnam.

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He was a friend of mine all through my military service.

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I already had a flying license, so the Air Force

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sent me a letter one day and suggested that I

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transfer from the Tank Corps into flying, which I did

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very with pleasure. Went to flying school, immediately sent to Africa,

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where I served in the Africa Middle East Wing of

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the Air Transport Command. One of the jobs I had

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there started me in this work that begins to be

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interesting as far as clandestine operations are concerned. I was

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sent to the Cairo Conference, the conference between Churchill Roosevelt

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and Chang Kai Chek from and from there went directly

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to the Tehran conference, which was between Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin.

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This was the first time they had met together. And

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what most people don't know is that Chang Kai Shek,

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the Chinese leader, was there also. Now this was November

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December of nineteen forty three, and historians have still not

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been told that Chang Kai Shek was there.

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Speaker 1: How do I know.

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Speaker 4: I was the pilot of the plane that flew them

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from Cairo to Tehran. Furthermore, in the air at the

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same time was a plane flown by a friend of

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mine flying Elliott Roosevelt to.

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Speaker 1: Tehran.

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Speaker 4: After my assignment in the Middle East, I was transferred

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to the Pacific and there I flew heavy transports in

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a Pacific area until the war ended and rise on Okinawa,

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mostly flying patients from that horrible Okinawa campaign back to

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hospitals in Hawaii, And one day we heard that the

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war had ended. It hadn't surrendered, but the Japanese had quit.

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Not long after, the atom bombs were dropped in August

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of nineteen forty five, and the unit I was flying

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with was asked immediately to start flying into Japan. The

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only air base we had not bombed anticipating that we

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might need one when we went in there was at

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Atsugi at Sugi, and you will recall rings a bell

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with our good friend Lee Harvey Oswald because he was

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based at Atsugi. Most people probably don't realize that that

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was a major Japanese headquarters all underground. What was above

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ground were just runways and a few little hangars that

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had been all shot up. But later it became a

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major headquarters for CIA in the Far East, and that's

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why Oswald was there as a marine augmenting the CIA's.

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Speaker 1: Capabilities.

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Speaker 4: There was another one of these coincidences in my career

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that became useful later because I knew the base pretty well,

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I never met Oswald there. I was finishing up some

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of that flying. The surrender had taken place on board

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the Missouri, and I went back to Okinawa after one flight.

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Some of my men needed uniforms, so I went down

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to harbor. A very odd thing was happening. Okinawa was

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loaded with.

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Speaker 1: Equipment, stacked up three or four pallets high.

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Speaker 4: Because we had intended to invade Japan with five hundred

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thousand men and the invasion didn't come off. So I

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saw this stuff being reloaded onto these American ships and

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I asked the harbor masterress, is that going back to

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the States. He said, hell, no, they never want to

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see all these tanks and guns and ambulances, one hundred

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and five millimeters, horses and all the rest of the stuff.

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He said, we're shipping this to Hanoi. And at that

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time Hanoi didn't ring too many bells with me. I

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knew where it was, but it was not part of

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the war as far as we were concerned. And he said,

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that's half of it. The other half is going to

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Korea and believe it or not, back there. With the

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end of World War two, somebody had made plans to

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provide the enormous stockpile of modern arms and equipment to

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Singminry in Korea and actually to Ho Chi Minh in Hanoi,

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and Ho Chi Minh in those days was accompanied by

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an American Army general named Gallagher and an oss man

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named Coneen, who would be both became famous later in

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the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: So you see, acting.

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Speaker 4: As no more than an ordinary pilot, doing my job,

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but getting some rather unusual assignments you begin to acquire

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a little information.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't show up in history books.

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Speaker 4: Who was it that, ever, looking ahead that far ordered

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the movement of that enormous stock pile of equipment.

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Speaker 1: Specifically to Seul, Korea and to Hanoi in Vietnam.

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Speaker 4: While I was doing that, flying between Okinawa and Japan,

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I received orders from the Army to report to Yale University.

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The Air Force had never had a ROTC program because

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always was part of the Army program. But the Air

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Force was being made independent and we had to start

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the program in a some one hundred and sixty six

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colleges around the country, and three of us were sent

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to Yale to open the program.

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Speaker 1: At Yale.

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Speaker 4: I taught there for three years, incidentally, the same three

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years that George Bush was an undergraduate there, and Bill

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Buckley and others who have become rather well known. And

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because when you start you don't have the equipment that

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ordinarily a program would have, we had to write textbooks,

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and I was selected to write textbooks. Go to New

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York City and work in a studio there, and I

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wrote the Air Force's textbook on aeronautics that were distributed

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all the RTC colleges, and as soon as that was done,

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I was asked to write the textbook on missiles and rockets,

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because we were.

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Speaker 1: Just getting into that business.

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Speaker 4: And it's a pleasure to be asked to write a

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book for the military, because the orders say, go anywhere,

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visit anyone, any factory, any university, and write the best

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book you can well.

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Speaker 1: Magnificent orders.

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Speaker 4: One of the people I went to see was Verna

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von Braun, who built the Apollo ship that went to

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the Moon and who had been with the Germans in Pinamunda,

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you know, building the V two weapon in Germany. A

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terrific man. And I remember well von Braun talking with me,

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and I asked, I said, how do you intend to

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move a rocket from the Earth to the Moon. Do

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you just aim like a somebody shooting a pigeon And

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he laughed, No, We put it in orbit around the

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Earth and then the orbit will spin it off and

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it will go to the Moon where it will go

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in orbit there and then we'll have a land there.

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Speaker 1: And you know the story.

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Speaker 4: But here he was talking to me in nineteen forty

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nine saying what he was going to do in what

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nineteen sixty nine. I've always thought that was one of

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the most important forecasts I ever heard, and I wrote

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it up in the book.

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Speaker 1: That we produced.

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Speaker 4: After writing those books, I was ordered to Colorado Springs

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because by that time the threat of Soviet attack on

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the United States had increased so much that we had

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to modernize our radar system and we set up the

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big Norad Air Defense Command business and I stayed there

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for a year when the Korean War broke out and

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I was transferred them to Tokyo. Back there and I

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became the manager of the Tokyo International Airport because while

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we were as an occupation force in Japan, we ran

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the country, and the Japanese were trying to rebuild after

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the horrible war. I never saw anything worse than Tokyo

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at the end of the war.

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Speaker 1: It was so bad.

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Speaker 4: You could walk on a street and look across blocks

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of Tokyo and see nothing that would interfere with the

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trolley cars driving down the street. Even the ruins of

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the buildings were flat on the ground.

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Speaker 1: I saw.

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Speaker 4: Cities in the Soviet Union when I was flying in

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the Soviet Union nineteen forty four for the US Air

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Force that were destroyed, but nothing like Tokyo. On our

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first flight up there, we saw Horoshiman that too was

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pretty bad in this Korean War period. I after when

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we turned the airport back to the Japanese, I was

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made commander of a heavy transport squad and our regular

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duties were to fly to Southeast Asia and in the Philippines.

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In fifty two and fifty three, we were working to

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change the government there and the man that was leading

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that as a covert activity was a man.

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Speaker 1: Named Edward G.

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Speaker 4: Lansdale who became well known later on, and we were

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flying supplies to him while he was building up his

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covert Filipino Army under the leadership of Ramon Magsaysai. He

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succeeded in changing that government. Quirino had been the leader

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of the government, and he moved his people over the

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Saigon Military Mission created by CIA into Vietnam, and my

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job for flying included Saigon and Bangkok actually all the

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way to Saudi Arabia across South Asia, so we were

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in and out of those cities all that time until

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nineteen fifty five. I was given orders to go back

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to the United States. I went to the Armed Forces

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Staff College, which is run by the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

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and from there was brought into the Pentagon. In nineteen

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fifty five, under Eisenhower, the National Security Council had published

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a very important directive that defined covert operations, and in

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the process the decision had been made that whenever the

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CIA was going to perform a covert operation, rather than

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duplicate equipment and bases and ships and aircraft, they would

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turn to the Air Force, to the military and get

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equipment and use military equipment to the extent possible for

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the covert operation. So this meant that the services had

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to create an organization, a global organization, to be ready

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at any moment to provide this, to do it in

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great secret, so the money would never be short. We

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always charge the money to a special fund and run

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it in such a way that the agency could deny

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or plausibly disclaim, as the words in the law say

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that the United States had anything to do with it. Well,

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this is pretty new in nineteen fifty five. In fact,

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I had to create the office, and I became the

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Chief of Special Operations for the Air Force, and I

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stayed in that business for five years.

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Speaker 1: It could be quite a story, but we'll skip that.

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Speaker 4: At the end of that I was transferred to work

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with the Office of the Secretary of Defense in an

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office called Office of Special Operations. From that point we

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had all the services under this one office, and again

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I was back in an office with at Lansdale. By

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that time, Lansdale, an Air Force officer in uniform but

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a career CIA man was in the Pentagon directing what

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later became Special Forces and things like that. As that

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developed through the military. With the election of Kennedy, macnamara

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chose to disband that office and at the same time

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replace part of it with THEDIA, a new organization, Defense

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Intelligence Agency. So he created that and put it under

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General Carroll and called me in one day and he said,

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you've been in this business now for seven years. You

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know all the people involved. You know already know the

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agency people. You don't have to open up any new contacts.

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You know the agency's global organization. You go down to

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the Joint Chief of Staff and set up an office

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there to handle all the military sport for all the

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services around the world for the CIA. Well, this coincided

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with the Kennedy administration, and I was there until Kennedy

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died in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 1: I retired.

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Speaker 4: Well, this background information I wrote in a book called

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The Secret Team, and I wrote many articles about it later.

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And Oliver Stone, when he was thinking of about doing

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the Kennedy Murder, began to realize that the question about

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Kennedy's murder is not limited to.

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Speaker 1: Who shot him, but why was he shot?

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Speaker 4: If there's a lone gunman, you don't have to ask

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that question, because a lone gunman could have been an oddball,

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as they say, a loan nut. But if it's a conspiracy,

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and most of the people in this country now believe

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firmly that there was a major conspiracy involved in that,

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then you can't help facing the issue why was President

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Kennedy killed? And Stone thought that was important enough to

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build on the Garrison book, which is probably one of

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the best books written on a subject about his trial

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and all of the antecedents to that, but to include

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also the man X role. And that's how I backed

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into his film. See, he needed somebody to build it

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on who knew the other side of what was going

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on in Washington at that time. I didn't know he

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had made man X until I saw the script some

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months later, but it was one way to present as

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he does the drama of that event, and of course, John,

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you're very familiar with that.

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Speaker 5: When you were providing a military personnel, material and support

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for these covert operations around the world, what did you

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see as their purpose or was that a question that

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you asked.

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Speaker 1: John?

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Speaker 4: I know you read my book, and I think this

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was at the heart of it. Having worked with the

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agency for nine years, actually longer because it went back

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into the forties, I came to a personal conclusion, but

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I think I had the professional experience to come to

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this conclusion that most of the covert operations run by

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this government. And at that point you have to enlarge

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CIA because, as I explained, the militaries in there, and

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if we need other departments like Treasury or FA because

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of airplanes or something. It's a government project, but it

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originates in the other country like Indonesia or the Congo,

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wherever you're working, it originates there, and that the covert

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operation really is a reaction.

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Speaker 1: To something learned in the foreign country.

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Speaker 4: It's very important philosophically because you can't say really that

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it was a United States government plan. Now, if the

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CIA puts on its intelligence hat and is studying intelligence

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in Africa or some other place in the Middle East,

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and they come up with a need for secret intelligence,

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they actually run that with a different network because it

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usually doesn't require guns or anything. It's just secret intelligence.

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The distinction is not realized by too many people. But

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when you talk about the covert operations, you are talking

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about something that, in my opinion, with that much experience,

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is a reaction to something that started outside this country.

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There aren't too many that were designated here. The order

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is to assassinate the leader of the congo originated here,

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but that's pretty rare.

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Speaker 5: I know that in much of your writing you make

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a distinction between the type of involvement that you had

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in World War Two, for instance, and these later wars.

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And I'm wondering, especially in the post war period after

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World War Two, whether you see warfare now as a

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sort of different element. What are the hower wars planned

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or what are the purposes of wars in the modern world.

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Speaker 4: This is something that I'm really rather surprised at the

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00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:51,640
Society of Historians. I'm a very active member in the

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soety Society Historians for American Foreign Relations. Thousands and thousands

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of men, mostly college professors, even thoughlitary writers seem to

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overlook this. The impact of the hydrogen bomb more than

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the atomic bomb. But the hydrogen bomb is so enormous,

335
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the new bomb fishing, fusion fishing, all happening in a

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split second is so enormous.

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Speaker 1: You can't plan a war.

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Speaker 4: It's ridiculous because, for one thing, wars for the most part,

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are started by people who have an interest in the

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war and who presume they're going to outlive the war,

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as the leaders of Germany and France and England and

342
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Russia did during World War Two. In the United States,

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now you can't no place to hide, you know, no

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place to hide is pretty true in the hydrogen bomb era.

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So in war planning we used to do very formal

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war planning. We cut the Soviet Union up into sections

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and safe we have to go with the Soviet Union

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as we did in.

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Speaker 1: World War Two.

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Speaker 4: We'd invade here, we would go in by Murmansk, we'd

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go in by the Caspiancy with the first exchange being

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in these super nuclear weapons. It's a new kind of war.

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And this is why we couldn't solve the war situation

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in Korea, because if we turned the hydrogen bombs in Korea,

355
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what would be there or it would be worth fighting

356
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a bunch of holes in the ground and then radioactive

357
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for how many years? Eighty years, one hundred years, And

358
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the same in Vietnam. When generals in charge of the

359
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,079
military in Vietnam would want to attack, you know, thinking

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Hanoi is the objective. Like General Patten attacking across France,

361
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across Germany, shaking hands with the Russians.

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Speaker 1: He knew what he was doing. That's war.

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Speaker 4: But in Vietnam, the generals were told, you hold that

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area and you don't attack, you don't use nuclear weapons.

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We're not going into that super war business. This is

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the problem today and this is what puts the emphasis

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on the covert wars. They're trying to find a new

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kind of thing by the attack in Panama, Granada, Iraq.

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But just look back, I mean what they accomplish. You know,

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you can destroy people and you can destroy cities, but

371
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not what they did accomplish. Really, So your question is

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very basic and it shows why this government and other

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governments are emphasizing the requirement for COVID activities.

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Speaker 5: I know you've worked more recently on a book specifically

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about the Vietnam war called the Saigon Solution. And I

376
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know that you knew many of the people through your

377
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work in these support capacities that were part of the

378
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carrying out that war, and I thought you might want

379
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to talk a little bit about why you felt Vietnam

380
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began and how Vietnam ended.

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Speaker 4: One of the most momentous decisions in the early part

382
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of the Vietnam War. And I hate to say war

383
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in the beginning, because it started in the Vietnam War

384
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really started on September second, nineteen forty five, when Ho

385
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Chi Minh got up on a platform Hanoi and read

386
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the Declaration of the Independence of Vietnam, written almost the

387
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same as our own declaration. And on one side was

388
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a US Army major general named Gallagher, and on the

389
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other side, as I said earlier, an OSS man named Conin,

390
00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:21,079
and we're supplying his weapons. But the objective then was

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to round up the Japanese and get the Japanese residual,

392
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the remaining forces out of Vietnam. And the plan was

393
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and that the British would move in and gradually bring

394
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order to Vietnam, hoping to keep the French out because

395
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the Tehran Conference and earlier conference had ruled against the

396
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continuation of colonialism.

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Speaker 1: It didn't work.

398
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Speaker 4: The French got back in, so we switched our support

399
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,960
from Ho Chi Minh to the French and we began

400
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to fight the man we supported. And when the French

401
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,960
were defeated at Diimvanfu, they were defeated with American weapons.

402
00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: Which a lot of people would know but haven't thought

403
00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:57,640
much about it. See.

404
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,799
Speaker 4: So the decisions to do this were done covertly, and

405
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:04,960
the CIA brought people in and what was called the

406
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,000
Saigon Military Mission. It was not very often in Saigon,

407
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,000
it was not military, and it had more to do

408
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with the Vietnam War probably than anything else. And that

409
00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:19,279
mission was headed by Edward G. Lansdale as a colonel

410
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:23,599
in those days, with many others whose names we've heard

411
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,000
throughout the period of Vietnam War without realizing the enormously

412
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important role that they played. When that mission was established

413
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in nineteen fifty four, our troops didn't land in Vietnam

414
00:24:35,559 --> 00:24:39,400
till sixty five, so it was all a CIA operation

415
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from fifty four to sixty five.

416
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Speaker 2: Who were some of these people, Well, he's.

417
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Speaker 4: Closest man, of course, was Conein, and then Bohannon Bohannon

418
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,839
was an army officer, I believe in those days, Lieutenant

419
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:55,359
colonel and Arthur Arundel, but he was on what we

420
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,559
would call the psychological warfare, the civil affairs psychological warfare,

421
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,079
side Phillips, Michael Hand and some of these names we've heard.

422
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Michael Hann, for instance, the years later kind of left

423
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,279
the CIA and with an Australian named Frank Nougan started

424
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:17,440
the Neugan Hand Bank. So much money was being made

425
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:22,200
illegally in Vietnam, they couldn't all be sent home, so

426
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,640
they had to put it somewhere. They put it in

427
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,400
this Australian bank. The bank had over a billion dollars

428
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:29,440
when the United States had only about fifteen billion dollar

429
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:32,319
banks in the country. And here this bank just grew

430
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,039
up out of Vietnam with a billion dollars. Well, the

431
00:25:35,079 --> 00:25:37,240
man running it then half of it anyway, it was

432
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,920
Michael Hand. So you see the roles that worked themselves

433
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,359
through the structure of what we call the Vietnam War

434
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,119
were some of them rather interesting.

435
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 5: You mentioned the role of General Edward Lansdale in the

436
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,119
Philippines and in an operation there that had to do

437
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,160
with overthrowing the government and involvement with the Hucks, these people,

438
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:03,000
I assume whom were also key characters in other similar

439
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:05,039
operations like the Bay of Pigs.

440
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 4: Yes, when the Bey of Pigs was being planned, one

441
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,680
of the biggest problems was to try to stay within

442
00:26:14,759 --> 00:26:20,400
the Cuban exile community, but there were no trained leaders

443
00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:26,119
within that community that we could trust. The leadership work too,

444
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,000
Manuel our Teama was probably as close as we came

445
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,519
to a real good military leader. So the agency, using

446
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,240
Lansdale's contacts, brought people in from around the world, but

447
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,559
a good number of them from Manila. Like Valeriano was

448
00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:49,359
actually macis size deputy when he was President of the

449
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,599
Philippines for special forces type work, or they call civil

450
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,359
action work. He came over and helped work on the

451
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,559
Beya Pigs program along with others. The Bea Pigs program

452
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,359
was a lot more involved than we ever got a

453
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,880
chance to see because of the unfortunate failure to.

454
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: Do it properly.

455
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,079
Speaker 4: It had been pretty well carried out, and the air

456
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,599
support was a function, and I mean more or less

457
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,559
just the air transport air power drop support, not military type,

458
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,559
was a function of the CIA's big proprietary airline known

459
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:32,359
as KAT or Civil Air Transport or the Pacific Corporation,

460
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,240
things like that. Their forces were all brought in for this.

461
00:27:36,319 --> 00:27:40,359
We created a special modification of the B twenty six

462
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,240
bomber for the Bay of Pigs operation, and had we

463
00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:47,279
been able to use it there, it would have done

464
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:48,640
a most effective job.

465
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 5: You know, some of the people like Richard Bissell and

466
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:56,960
Charles Cabell and Alan Dulles seemed to follow through that

467
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,599
history as well as later into into Vietnam, people like

468
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,119
lu Kneen who you've mentioned. These were all in a

469
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,160
circle either above or below Lansdale's position who was calling

470
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,319
the shots in this group.

471
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 4: This is interesting in coverorate activities you develop the skills

472
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,599
of people by function, not by geography. In the intelligence business,

473
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,880
you try to keep people on a certain section of

474
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,319
the map so that they know the geography, so they

475
00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:32,119
know the political situation, in the economic situation.

476
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,759
Speaker 1: But in coored.

477
00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,799
Speaker 4: Activities it's not unusual to be using a man in

478
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:41,559
the congo and his team trained team, and even if

479
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,559
it involves other nationals. We use, for instance, Polish exiles

480
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:50,680
widely and you work them into teams. And then when

481
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,200
you have the Indonesian rebellion, you move some of the

482
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,319
same people in Frank Wisner, the old oss hand who

483
00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:03,279
was in Bucharest, Romania during World War Two, became the

484
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:05,039
leader of the Indonesian program.

485
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: So your observation is correct.

486
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 4: And Lansdale, of course, being really the legendary prime man

487
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,640
in this business, was involved in many of these things,

488
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,279
especially in a Pacific area.

489
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:25,319
Speaker 5: This work included, I assume, also assassinations of government leaders

490
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,880
or particular individuals. When did you begin to think that

491
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,640
the assassination of President Kennedy might have fit this same mold.

492
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 4: I had known through experience that assassinations were called for

493
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,680
in certain activities, usually as a fallback. You know, if

494
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,720
you can talk a guy into leaving, you do it.

495
00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:52,359
But if it doesn't work, or if the other people

496
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,680
in the country can't work with the man, even in

497
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,599
a compromise situation, the decision is made that there must

498
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,319
be an assassination. And during the nineteen seventy six hearings

499
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,039
under the Church Committee and the Senate, this was finally revealed.

500
00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:11,839
Even though the agency tried to overlook the situation, it

501
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,960
never hit me more strongly than early in Kennedy's administration,

502
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,880
when a major general, and I knew very well. Air

503
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,680
Force officer came back from a meeting in the White House,

504
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,759
and as he went by the door of my office,

505
00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:30,960
which was just crossed the hall from his, he said, prouding,

506
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:34,720
go down to personnel and get me retirement papers right now.

507
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:37,200
So I went down to personally got him retirement paper.

508
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,599
There was a man that might have been Chief of

509
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,400
Staff the Air Force, very well known general. So as

510
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,720
I brought the papers in, what's the matter, General? He said,

511
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:49,720
I can't agree with it. He said, we're sitting in

512
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:53,000
a White House. We're talking about a certain program.

513
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,319
Speaker 1: He said.

514
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:58,079
Speaker 4: The man that they're talking about is as any Communist

515
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:01,640
as anyone in the world. Although they have certain arguments

516
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,640
against this man, and they're going to remove him, and

517
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,079
they can't remove him peacefully.

518
00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: He won't go They're going to kill him. So I'm quitting.

519
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:14,279
Speaker 4: I won't go through this, and he walked out of

520
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,359
the Air Force that afternoon. Well, obviously that was a

521
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,599
lesson to me because I had not been personally in

522
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,000
that kind of situation. Although I had provided aircraft for

523
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,599
teams that were going for these jobs, I didn't ever

524
00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:31,200
see it that close as when that man told me

525
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:33,720
what they had decided. Next morning I read in the

526
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:35,880
paper that the man was dead. The man on the

527
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,960
head of the country put it together. You know all

528
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,720
you need to know about assassinations.

529
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,359
Speaker 5: Did did you have a sense at the time that

530
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,680
you resigned in nineteen sixty four that the murder of

531
00:31:50,759 --> 00:31:52,240
Kennedy was suspicious in some.

532
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:58,519
Speaker 4: Way by that time, in fact, within days, I was

533
00:31:58,599 --> 00:31:59,319
positive of it.

534
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: There were so many things not done.

535
00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: The secret of an assassination plan is to remove the protection.

536
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,000
If you've been living in a neighborhood where you think

537
00:32:16,799 --> 00:32:20,640
having a big german shepherd dog is necessary for your safety,

538
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,240
and if that dog is gone, somebody come in a

539
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,680
house because the dog's gone, They won't come.

540
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: When the dog's there.

541
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,079
Speaker 4: See, if you remove the protection, you're going to have

542
00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:35,720
somebody assassinated. And it was evident in the area of

543
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:40,319
Dallas that the Secret Service coverage either didn't exist, was

544
00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:46,079
at a minimum, and that the normal military augmentation of

545
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,400
Secret Service coverage had not even taken place. And although

546
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,720
I happened to be in New Zealand on the day

547
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,960
President Kennedy was killed, and I was having breakfast with

548
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,440
a congressman from the United States. We heard on the

549
00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:05,319
radio that the president was shot dead, and as soon

550
00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:07,000
as we could, we went out on the street and

551
00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:11,119
bought a newspaper from a man selling extras. And I

552
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,039
saw a picture on the front page of the paper

553
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:18,039
of that Texas school book building, which I'm sure had

554
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:21,480
to have been taken, you know, right away, and photocopy

555
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,400
even sent around the world, and windows were open. And

556
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,400
I turned to the congressman, so you know, something is

557
00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:32,240
seriously wrong. The Secret Service closes windows. The military, you

558
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:35,400
have plenty of people close the windows and put stickers

559
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,640
on them. Don't open the window till a president goes by.

560
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,839
And then you put a man outside with a radio

561
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,599
and he looks at the village just to glance at

562
00:33:42,599 --> 00:33:43,000
the building.

563
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: He knows the windows are closed. Everything's all right.

564
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: But if a window opens, he gets on the radio.

565
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,680
There's a man up on a roof with a sniper

566
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,960
gun watching, and other men come through the hall, go

567
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,839
and see why the window was open, and shut it.

568
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's protection. You got to keep the president alive.

569
00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:00,799
Speaker 4: You're not going to take the bubbletop off his You're

570
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:02,440
not going to put him in a car that is armored.

571
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:05,160
The Secret Service didn't use an armored car. If the

572
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,440
bubble had been on it anyway, it was nothing. It

573
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,639
wouldn't have stopped ble jay Ed Hoover made a report

574
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:11,880
to Johnson on that. He said that bubbletop, whether it

575
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,119
was on or not, didn't make any difference.

576
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: It was worthless. He said, I wouldn't ride that car

577
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,519
across the street.

578
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 4: So we noticed immediately, just being off in New Zealand

579
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,039
in this paper things that when I got back to Washington,

580
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,000
I found out there's no way in the world that

581
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,159
the president had been protected properly.

582
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:32,599
Speaker 1: Well, that can't happen.

583
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,199
Speaker 4: You trained thousands of military men to do the job.

584
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,000
They're going to do the job. That's their business. You

585
00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:40,880
train Secret servicemen year in and year out to do

586
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:41,199
the job.

587
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: They're going to do it.

588
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 4: But I called one of the military units to talk

589
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:46,639
to a friend of mine because I had worked on

590
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,679
that kind of business. And he said, you know, somebody

591
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,639
called my colonel and said we don't need your unit

592
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:55,280
in Dallas.

593
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh.

594
00:34:56,039 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 4: He wasn't too shocked, although he was only in San

595
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,599
Antonio and could have come up easy, because he figured

596
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:03,559
they were going to put another unit in Dallas and

597
00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:06,039
you know, it wasn't his job. He'd stay there. He

598
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:09,880
found out afterwards that they didn't. Well, then who called?

599
00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:14,239
Who knew ahead of time for reasons of the assassin's

600
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,480
point of view, not to have that military unit there.

601
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,519
Speaker 1: You know, it would have.

602
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 4: To know code words, he would have to know all

603
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,360
the secrets of how this thing is done. And I've

604
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,840
done that. I've gone to Mexico City when Eisenhewer went

605
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,920
down there preparing the road for our military units, the

606
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,840
augmented Secret Service. In Mexico City, we use extreme caution.

607
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:40,119
It took weeks, and then Eisenhower to casually walk down Albanda, the.

608
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: Main street in the middle of town, and he's safe.

609
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,880
At least he's as safe as you can make it.

610
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,159
Speaker 4: Well, that didn't happen, and you could see that right

611
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:49,119
away in that first newspaper. And then when I got

612
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:51,400
back to my office with the JCS, and I had

613
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:57,280
other resources to check other things. By the time I retired,

614
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,400
and it wasn't just because of that, I had already

615
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,920
arranged job, but it was pretty much my whole idea

616
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,599
of what I was doing came to an end right there.

617
00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:12,159
Nine years was enough, and I had no doubts that

618
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:16,960
the murder was a carefully planned job, and that Oswald

619
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:21,000
was a patsy, no question about it, and that the

620
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:26,440
murderers were professionals that I knew existed because Lyndon Johnson himself,

621
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:31,920
before he died, said, we operate a murder incorporated, meaning

622
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,840
we operate people who can murder, but incorporated that means

623
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,360
in perpetuity. A business that is incorporated means perpetual. He

624
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,639
further said, I believe there was a conspiracy, and he said,

625
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:45,119
I believe that Oswald did not do it himself. Those

626
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,880
are printed words that are available anybody wants to go

627
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,800
to the library. So you know, there were no doubts

628
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,679
in my mind, and I think thousands of other people

629
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,960
could see that also.

630
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,119
Speaker 5: I know in my own research I noticed similar things.

631
00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,440
For instance, the decision to take the double turn from

632
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,880
Main Street to Houston and Elm that slowed the car

633
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,559
down considerably.

634
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,159
Speaker 2: And the completely.

635
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,039
Speaker 5: Wrong reaction to the Secret Service driver on hearing the

636
00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:17,559
first of the gunfire to hit the brake instead of

637
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:21,559
the gas, making it possible for an assassin to take

638
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:25,679
a closer aim rather than both those things slowed the

639
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,840
car down and made the assassination an easier hit or

640
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,039
more possible, and there were other indications in that direction.

641
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: But beyond that, many unusual.

642
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 5: Things happened that day, November twenty second, at levels even

643
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,320
above the planning in Dealey Plaza that led me to

644
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,480
think that this had to have been orchestrated in a

645
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:48,199
military fashion, as a coup d'etais on the highest level.

646
00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:52,760
You know the story well about my mother in the

647
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,360
Pentagon knowing that the plans about Vietnam were reversed immediately.

648
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,280
I also, in my work with enlisted people during the

649
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,719
Vietnam War, talked to Strategic Air Command bomber pilots at

650
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,880
Right Patterson Air Force Base who were in the air

651
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,119
that hour and told me that when they heard the

652
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:14,079
news that Kennedy had been shot, they raced for their codebooks,

653
00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:17,000
the books and special lockers that linked them to the

654
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,079
cryptic codes from the White House command rooms or the

655
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,199
different command control centers, or the President himself that would

656
00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:27,239
have allowed them to participate in a nuclear or national

657
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,079
emergency response. In each of the planes in the air

658
00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:32,559
that hour, they told me no code books were to

659
00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:36,079
be had. The lockers were empty. That's reported also for

660
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:40,119
Air Force one by per Salinger. We have reports that

661
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,599
the entire communication grid in the federal offices went down

662
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,199
for a period of an hour and a half to

663
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,719
two hours at the time Kennedy was shot. And I

664
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,199
wondered if your work, and looking at it from your angle,

665
00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:55,920
you saw things that made you feel that this had

666
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,800
to have been more than just the security being withdrawn,

667
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,320
but an operation planned at the top.

668
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think I've told you, John, I

669
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,119
was aware of your mother's rule that the work she

670
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,519
did was just not too far down the hall from

671
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:14,400
where I worked. I didn't know her, but I have

672
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:16,599
you know, we knew that they were doing that planning

673
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:19,800
because every time something would change in the war planning,

674
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,199
it was reflected in a joint chief of staff, of course,

675
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,599
and we knew there were changes because Kennedy was telling

676
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:28,360
people to come home, and all of a sudden the

677
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,519
word went out to build a force up. Something changed drastically.

678
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:37,639
And the other side of it is I have never

679
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,559
been able to find out why, or to even find

680
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:43,960
a rational idea in my own mind, why the Kennedy

681
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,119
cabinet was on the way to Tokyo at the time

682
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:50,320
he was killed. I don't know of any time when

683
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,519
most of the cabinet for any president was going any

684
00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:55,639
further than across the river.

685
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: You know.

686
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,639
Speaker 4: Here they all were on an airplane on the way

687
00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:01,199
from Honolulu to Tokyo. When they hear about the president

688
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,159
being shot, that's quite unusual. Or even the little line

689
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,880
in the Pentagon papers that says so much Ambassador Lodge,

690
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,320
who had come from Saigon to the meeting in Honolulu

691
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,760
before a large staff, which is a customary thing, including

692
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:23,360
these cabinet officers. Then it said on the twenty second

693
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,480
of November, Ambassador Lodge flew to Washington to speak to

694
00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:33,079
the president. Didn't say which president, because by the time

695
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:37,199
they wrote the Pentagon Papers, they knew President Kennedy had died.

696
00:40:37,559 --> 00:40:38,679
Speaker 1: Why couldn't they.

697
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: Find a little bit of space to put in President

698
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,519
Johnson because that's the day Kennedy died or some they

699
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:49,440
go on for pages after that never mentioned Kennedy's name.

700
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: Although it was the doing.

701
00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:53,679
Speaker 4: I mean, why are people playing with the record like that,

702
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,039
see or why are they playing with the protection system

703
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,320
in Dallas? And what's motivating the Strategic Air Command to

704
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,039
do what it did. If people want to say that

705
00:41:02,119 --> 00:41:06,920
Castro or the mafia or Krutchev or anybody had the

706
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,800
power to do that sort of thing. They're really not

707
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,920
thinking clearly about what this assassination was. It was a

708
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:23,079
major controlled kudatta that was absolutely effective because if Oswald

709
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:26,119
had any role at all, and he had been with

710
00:41:26,199 --> 00:41:29,760
the CIA, and I can tell you clearly that a

711
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,199
marine assigned to Atsugi was a selected CIA man, a

712
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,280
marine that can get out of his service and go

713
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,159
to Russia and live for eighteen months and then go

714
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:42,320
back to the American embassy and say I've decided not

715
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,000
to leave the country. I'm going to go back to

716
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:45,800
the States, and they give him this passport and then

717
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,920
the money to go back with his wife and child

718
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,360
came from the State Department.

719
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,079
Speaker 1: They paid his way back. I mean, you know what's

720
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:55,599
going on. So there is so much.

721
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,159
Speaker 4: Of a fabric of this assassination, as you're pointing out

722
00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,960
that really the hardest thing for me to see is

723
00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:08,760
why the Warrant Commission had the temerity to even publish

724
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,480
that document. I mean, the Chief Justices Supreme Court is

725
00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:16,320
putting his name to a document that I can't believe

726
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,000
he didn't know what was wrong. Along with all the

727
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:22,679
others It's just unbelievable. Where did that pressure come from.

728
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,239
How do you tell us Supreme Court justice what.

729
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,039
Speaker 1: He's going to do.

730
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,519
Speaker 4: You can't do it by walking into the court with

731
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:29,800
a staff of lawyers.

732
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: He'll tell you what to do.

733
00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: Well.

734
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 5: My mother, who was in the Deputy chief of Staff's

735
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,639
Officer personnel, was planning manpower analysis and national draft call

736
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,960
figures five years in advance, and knew that there were

737
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,400
plans to withdraw the troops from Vietnam. And I know

738
00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:49,679
that you were in meetings in that period at the

739
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,360
end of the Kennedy administration where those plans were being discussed,

740
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,639
and that there were national security memoranda developed about it.

741
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,719
There's quite a bit of controversy now in the press,

742
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,920
and many claims that this is this is a sort

743
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,039
of absurd motive that Stone has given or a fanciful idea.

744
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,199
And I wondered if you could speak to whether or

745
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,880
not you feel from your experience there and what evidence

746
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,280
you had at the time, that in fact Kennedy would

747
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,800
have pulled out of Vietnam entirely.

748
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 4: This has been one of the surprises of my work

749
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,960
with the film. You see, I was familiar with this

750
00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:27,800
national Security Action Memorandum number two sixty three, which was

751
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:34,079
dated October eleventh, nineteen sixty three. The principle finding of

752
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:39,440
that memorandum was that Kennedy was going to bring all

753
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,960
US personnel. Didn't say Military, didn't say CIA, didn't say

754
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,639
State Department, All US personnel out of Vietnam by the

755
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,880
end of fifty five. The next day the World Around

756
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,320
printed US Stars and Strike's paper that's for the military.

757
00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:59,119
That was a headline, All Americans out by sixty five.

758
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,960
You know, it was not a secret, it wasn't casual.

759
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,119
It was a major importance. And yet some of these

760
00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:08,000
writers who have attacked Stone for the veracity of his film,

761
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,039
I don't know better. It's a public document. But more

762
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:15,559
than that, I have a government printing Office book. Of

763
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:17,599
course I have my own records too, because I was

764
00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:21,840
working on these papers that was printed in nineteen ninety

765
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,559
one current and it shows clearly in the period from

766
00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:32,440
August to November nineteen sixty three that there were more

767
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,119
than fifty meetings that were attended by Kennedy, Rusk McNamara,

768
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,320
and Maxwell Taylor. Sometimes Kennedy might not have been there,

769
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,320
but then he'd be represented by either Bundy or somebody

770
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,199
else like that.

771
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 1: And my boss.

772
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 4: My boss is referenced in every one of those meetings,

773
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,000
General Krulac, And when General Krulak would come back from

774
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,400
those meetings, the usual thing was to call to us,

775
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,760
one or two or three of us there, here's what

776
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,679
happened today. Here's what we've got to do from our

777
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,840
You research this. You research this, will put it together

778
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,159
for tomorrow when you go back to the meeting. We had

779
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:05,039
all this material fund and we worked intensively on this

780
00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:10,360
program for that period August until November. It was not

781
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,639
a casual program. We had access in my part, I

782
00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:16,880
had access to CIA, the other part of the staff

783
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,079
had access to NSA. We had access to the money crowd.

784
00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:22,679
We would be up on Congress on Capitol Hill. It

785
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,119
was a completely controlled effort by the President. He sat

786
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,679
there running these committee. Was not some thing held like

787
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,639
the Iran Contra hearings by somebody brought in for the job.

788
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: The President was running. So anybody that wants.

789
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 4: To say that the film over emphasizes the significance of

790
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,599
that paper and Kennedy's intent thoroughly to get Americans out

791
00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:49,840
of Vietnam, it doesn't understand history and he didn't say

792
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,000
he was going to leave Vietnam high and dry. There's

793
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:54,840
more to it. He said he was going to build

794
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,960
Vietnamese forces. He was going to supply them.

795
00:45:57,119 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: What they needed.

796
00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 4: You're going to pump money into Vietnam, but American troops.

797
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,840
And in nineteen sixty three, for those who haven't looked

798
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:10,239
at their history carefully, no American military people were operating

799
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,719
in Vietnam under military commanders. They were all assigned to

800
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,719
a structure that was under CIA operational control. Now there's

801
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,679
a big difference between American troops under CIA control or

802
00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:26,480
troops under their own commanders. They didn't have that situation,

803
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:30,480
a real wartime situation, until the invasion in early nineteen

804
00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:35,599
sixty five, after Johnson had completely turned Kennedy's plans around.

805
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,960
So the importance of that document is enormous, but it

806
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,039
wasn't the original one. It started back in nineteen sixty one,

807
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:47,199
in July with another document, number fifty five that I

808
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:51,079
won't go into, but historians should because they can't understand

809
00:46:51,119 --> 00:46:53,360
how this other document came unless you know that for

810
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,039
two years that planning was going on, and it would

811
00:46:57,039 --> 00:47:00,559
have continued on into after Kennedy's real life action into

812
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:02,480
his second term. We'd have been out of Vietnam. They

813
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:03,800
wouldn't have been a war in Vietnam.

814
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 5: That turnaround that Johnson presided over, I know, was at

815
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,719
least at the planning stage by the Monday following the

816
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,760
Kennedy assassination, when my mother was given figures by the

817
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,400
Joint Chiefs to plan for a ten year war and

818
00:47:17,519 --> 00:47:18,840
fifty seven thousand.

819
00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:20,079
Speaker 1: Dead ahead of time.

820
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,519
Speaker 2: Yes, that was on November twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three.

821
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:24,719
She was given those figures.

822
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: They were accurate. Weren't they just planning for how many?

823
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: Ten year war? And fifty seven thousand dead right on target?

824
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: Had we lost fifty eight?

825
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: Yes, fifty seven five or fifty eight?

826
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: It's amazing see.

827
00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:39,159
Speaker 5: And so it wasn't, I think, just a reversal of policy.

828
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,519
It was really a leap forward, a complete conceptual change,

829
00:47:43,679 --> 00:47:44,360
it seems to me.

830
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: In the way that we would be carried out.

831
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,079
Speaker 4: There was a document in draft form written strangely enough,

832
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:56,280
on November twenty first of nineteen sixty three, and the

833
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:02,159
draft form of the document that President Johnson signed on

834
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:05,079
the twenty sixth of November is called National Security Action

835
00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:10,199
number two seventy three. But the draft is interesting because

836
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,400
there doesn't seem to be in the government documents any

837
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,760
of the detail that we have on the two sixty three.

838
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,320
This just appeared by itself, they claim as a result

839
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,599
of this Honolulu conference that was so strange. And yet

840
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,719
there's a major change in the philosophy of the Kennedy

841
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,679
papers as it sort of swings over into the Johnson era.

842
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,639
But that was written before Kennedy died, dated November twenty first,

843
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,960
was just a draft, but it was dated November twenty first.

844
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,360
Mister Bundy, who was in the White House at that time,

845
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:46,639
sent that draft, and he may have been the originator

846
00:48:46,679 --> 00:48:49,199
of that draft, according to what we hear to his

847
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,679
brother William Bundy, who was in the Defense Department with us,

848
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,599
with the note on it that I have worked on this.

849
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,119
Would you read it, see what you think about it,

850
00:48:59,159 --> 00:48:59,960
and show it to mac.

851
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: Well. The interesting thing is.

852
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 4: If you read Arthur Schlessinger or any of the others

853
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:12,159
who were involved in this Honolulu conference, that McGeorge Bundy,

854
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,360
the author of the draft, and mister McNamara came back

855
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,719
from Honolulu on the same plane, flying.

856
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: Practically all day.

857
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 4: Although says they left at night, although you know, flying

858
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,480
together for many, many hours on the plane, what was

859
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,679
to stop mister Bundy from showing it to mister mcmack

860
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:31,000
while they were flying They were right there together. So

861
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:39,159
there's enough there to present the feeling that somehow, somebody

862
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,920
knew things were going to change within the next.

863
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: Couple of days.

864
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 4: It's like Lodge's trip to talk with the president? Which presidents?

865
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:50,280
These are fascinating little details from the manpower viewpoint of

866
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,119
your mother's work to these others, and none of them

867
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,480
have been answered, none are adequately answered.

868
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,159
Speaker 5: Do you have a sense you mentioned Oswald and his

869
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:02,199
defense action in the Soviet Union and strange circumstances under

870
00:50:02,199 --> 00:50:04,360
which he would return. Do you have a sense from

871
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,079
your work in support of the intelligence community how a

872
00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:11,480
patsy like this could be set up? Are there pools

873
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:16,320
of such characters doubles, cutouts? I mean, how is something

874
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,920
like this done? Where they chosen from and to what

875
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:23,880
extent do you think Oswald meets that pattern? Also, who

876
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,159
do you think set Oswald up? In my work the

877
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,480
role of George de Mornshield Ruth and Michael Paine, who

878
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:35,320
are depicted as the Williams in Stones movie were central

879
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:36,880
to moving Oswald in Dallas.

880
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: Who he knew, where he went.

881
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,519
Speaker 5: All the jobs that Oswald had seemed to have intelligence connections,

882
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,800
and he seemed to be somebody that just was taking

883
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,599
orders until he got to the position where he realized

884
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:49,880
where the orders were leading him.

885
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:58,199
Speaker 4: I have no difficulty in seeing Oswald through his brief

886
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:01,880
career as a CIA man, from his marine work to

887
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,679
going to Russia, coming back.

888
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: To Dallas where instead of meeting.

889
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,679
Speaker 4: Marxist Russians he met Demornshield and these other throwback to

890
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,079
the white Russians, you know, the anti Marxist Russian bullet

891
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:17,960
And why did that community pick him up if he

892
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:25,199
had proclaimed himself a Marxist and then this unusual occurrence

893
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,199
that he was just happened to have this job in

894
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,239
the school Depository building only two weeks before the President's

895
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,960
car was set to go by. That's the typical leading

896
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,840
role that you use an agent for. You move him

897
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,960
into things so that when it's something is needed. Why

898
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,480
did he work with a photography company that was doing

899
00:51:50,119 --> 00:51:53,840
highly classified army photography work. How did he get into

900
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,760
those things if he wasn't right in the middle of

901
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,039
intelligence work. I have no problem, and I mentioned Matsugi. No,

902
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,519
he wouldn't have been at at Sugi if he wasn't

903
00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:06,599
in this kind of work. And then with the assassination,

904
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,519
I would say that his role, he probably didn't know this,

905
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,079
was to provide for the mechanics two men or three

906
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:20,800
men the positioning they needed for the little structural work

907
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,239
they do before they fire their guns, like maybe the

908
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,320
week before. And then like the old pirate, after he's

909
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,239
raided the ship, he goes and buries his gold on

910
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,360
the desert island and he has these.

911
00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:34,159
Speaker 1: People dig a big deep hole and throw the gold

912
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:34,480
in there.

913
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 4: What does he do First he shoots them, drops them

914
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,440
in with the gold, and then nobody.

915
00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:39,519
Speaker 1: Tells where the gold is. See.

916
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,639
Speaker 4: So you have to get rid of Oswald. Not because

917
00:52:42,519 --> 00:52:44,519
he was a killer of Kennedy. That wasn't what Ruby's

918
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:48,119
job was. To keep his mouth quiet. That's a little fantasy,

919
00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:51,440
But how else could his role have come around to that?

920
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:56,320
And it fits the pattern because the mechanics are not

921
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,800
from this country and they need somebody that can get

922
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,119
him into the dial text building of Devodsbury, building up

923
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:06,000
on a grassyo or wherever they were. You know, they

924
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,039
can't do that by themselves. They can't ask a policeman

925
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:11,880
for that, for the help, and that man is going

926
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,480
to be removed. That's where the pats he comes in.

927
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,079
Speaker 5: Were some of the people who carried on these earlier

928
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:21,159
historical operations than in a position to run this operation

929
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:23,320
at the ground level in Dallas.

930
00:53:23,679 --> 00:53:25,119
Speaker 2: Who was in Dealey Plaza?

931
00:53:25,199 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you would never know because the coding won't permit

932
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:34,880
face to face. You'll remember in Oliver Stone's movie where

933
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,800
he's using dramatic license, but you only see a man

934
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,119
on the phone in profile and he's answering a few

935
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:44,679
questions and he just simply says yes. Now he would

936
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:47,039
have received that call by code, It wouldn't have been

937
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,119
John Judge calling Fletch Browdy, you know, And then he

938
00:53:52,159 --> 00:53:56,639
would know that he will receive orders again coded because

939
00:53:56,679 --> 00:53:59,800
he has to call somebody to have these people get

940
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,039
down in the Dallas. They're not in this country. Well,

941
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,519
when you do that, I mean there is no way

942
00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:08,840
you are ever going to run it backwards. And I

943
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,719
don't care if they release all the files that have

944
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,079
ever been buried, they aren't going to reveal that because

945
00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:17,800
it's gone, Nor will it ever reveal who made that

946
00:54:18,039 --> 00:54:21,760
first call to this contact man who knows the codes,

947
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,000
they can put everything else in motion, because that's all

948
00:54:24,039 --> 00:54:26,440
he's going to say is you know when I make

949
00:54:26,519 --> 00:54:28,880
those calls, I know three other people were called. And

950
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,119
I don't think the people I called were the ones involved.

951
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:33,639
My men were going to go to China and shoot somebody.

952
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,719
See it's like the old mafia system that they want

953
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,079
me to shoot you, but we do it with four people,

954
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:45,079
and you give four guns but only three bullets. And

955
00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:47,239
of course I had the blank, not not the man

956
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:47,840
beside me.

957
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: I didn't shoot you. The other guys did. This is

958
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,440
an old old thing.

959
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,599
Speaker 4: King Henry the Second removed the cardinal, you know, back

960
00:54:56,639 --> 00:55:00,440
in the twelfth century, and he never told them to

961
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,639
do it. The Knights did it because they knew King

962
00:55:02,679 --> 00:55:05,239
Henry would smile if the cardinal was gone.

963
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: Nobody said shoot him.

964
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 5: You make a small reference, or at least Donald Sutherland

965
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,039
playing the character act makes a reference to flying some

966
00:55:13,119 --> 00:55:15,000
of the Nazis out of Romania at the end of

967
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,599
the war to help in the war against the Communists.

968
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,920
And you mentioned also during our interview meeting Werner von Braun,

969
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,880
as you know von Braun came not only by himself,

970
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,079
but with hundreds of aerospace ammunitions and scientists from Project

971
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:34,960
paper Clip. Also here in this country. Many of the

972
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:37,840
spies who worked early on for the CI and the

973
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,920
intelligence networks came from a network in Germany under Reinhard Galen,

974
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:46,440
one of Hitler's top spies. I found in my work,

975
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,480
and so did research in May Brussel hew knew numerous

976
00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:53,800
Nazi connections to the John F. Kennedy assassination, including Walter Dornberger,

977
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,199
a general who had been a mentor to von Braun

978
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:57,960
and who actually thought up the idea of the space

979
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,320
shuttle in Star Wars. Was the employer for many years

980
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,559
of Michael Payne, whose wife Ruth Payne hals Marie Oswald.

981
00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:07,679
Ruth Payne got Oswald the job at the book depository

982
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:12,079
there at the corner in October. And in addition that

983
00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:15,159
De Mornshield had ties in his long family history to

984
00:56:15,199 --> 00:56:19,960
the Nazis and even the person who wrote the Warrant

985
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:25,239
Commission report, Rudolph Augustus Winnaker, came from the Army Historical Division,

986
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,440
where he had worked since the fifties. He had been

987
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,599
an official historian of the Reich for Adolf Hitler and

988
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,960
was brought into this country, and the Army Historical Division

989
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,079
was apparently the early drop point for the Galen network.

990
00:56:36,679 --> 00:56:40,519
And I wondered if you had a sense in your

991
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:43,760
work of the role that these Nazis played when they

992
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,079
came in and how central they were to the Cold

993
00:56:46,079 --> 00:56:46,719
War history.

994
00:56:48,039 --> 00:56:52,559
Speaker 4: The reason I've alluded to the work of the OSS

995
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:58,000
in Bucharest in Romania under Frank Wisner, one of their

996
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:05,079
leading agents, is because that as the Soviet Army was

997
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:08,159
coming to the border of Romania, there was an interval

998
00:57:08,199 --> 00:57:11,719
of about ten days. The Germans were fleeing and the

999
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,599
Russians were coming in. A peace treaty was signed with

1000
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,760
Romania by the United States and the Great Britain.

1001
00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:23,119
Speaker 1: And in that little interlude they.

1002
00:57:23,039 --> 00:57:27,119
Speaker 4: Rounded up seven hundred and fifty American POWs, mostly air crewmen,

1003
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:31,599
have been bombing the Plost airfields, and I received the

1004
00:57:31,679 --> 00:57:35,079
call from General Giles and Cairo to set up about

1005
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:39,280
thirty five forty aircraft to go to a little remote

1006
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,159
field in Syria where a freight train would come by.

1007
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,400
And we went there early in the morning and these

1008
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,320
seven hundred and fifty American POWs jumped off the train,

1009
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,519
came running toward our planes to be flown to Cairo

1010
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,440
and intermingled.

1011
00:57:54,599 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: With these men. We didn't know it.

1012
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 4: We started talking to some of them on airplane were Nazis,

1013
00:57:59,559 --> 00:58:02,159
who were i mean taken out of Romania and the

1014
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:06,039
Balkans by the OSS for pretty obvious reasons. They knew

1015
00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:08,559
all the intelligence in the Balkans, they knew the intelligence

1016
00:58:08,559 --> 00:58:11,199
in the Ukraine and other adjoining areas of Russia, and

1017
00:58:11,239 --> 00:58:13,119
they wanted to preserve them. They didn't want the Communists,

1018
00:58:13,119 --> 00:58:16,039
you know, they want even though Russia was our ally

1019
00:58:17,239 --> 00:58:17,639
I mean.

1020
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: This was beginning of the Cold War.

1021
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,079
Speaker 4: I had been ordered to fly into Russia only about

1022
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:25,239
two weeks before this other flight, and I lived up

1023
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,039
in Russia for a little while, getting doing a certain

1024
00:58:28,079 --> 00:58:30,599
mission up there, which was army mission. You know, we

1025
00:58:30,639 --> 00:58:33,039
had no knowledge at the time we went up there

1026
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:36,840
to Syria to pick up the American prisoners that among

1027
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,360
this group of seven hundred and fifty Americans some British,

1028
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,519
that they were going to be these Nazi intelligence specialists.

1029
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:46,880
Of course, they weren't identified to us, but we realized

1030
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,800
they weren't Americans. It's only later when we talked to

1031
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,800
the General in Cairo that we found out who they were,

1032
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,800
and they were a top professional Nazi team that knew

1033
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:00,920
all the agent networks in the in the southern part

1034
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,039
of the Soviet Union, southwestern part and the Balkans. So

1035
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,360
from that point of view, they were invaluable. But this

1036
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,360
was an effort run against the Soviet Union. Are alive

1037
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,480
at that period, and I believe that probably this is

1038
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:20,880
the first step on record of a Cold War move

1039
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:27,280
of major Importanns you talked about General Galen. The agreements

1040
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:32,719
made with Galen were made actually before the war ended.

1041
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:39,320
He had made a deal with certain American intelligence people,

1042
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:44,000
General Cybert, for one, that he would lay low, bury

1043
00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:47,199
his files, and surrender as soon as possible rather than

1044
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:50,320
draw attention to himself on the Nazi side. And Galen,

1045
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:55,400
of course was Hitler's prime intelligence general, a terrific prisoner

1046
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,760
for us to gain. But the object of this was

1047
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,480
basic to setting up the Cold War material to say,

1048
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:06,679
because Galen's intelligence information accounted for the rest of the

1049
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,360
western part of the Soviet Union and all of Eastern Europe.

1050
01:00:10,519 --> 01:00:14,119
And the discussions with Galen were led that led to

1051
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,480
Galen were led by Allen Dulles, who was in Switzerland

1052
01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:22,079
as the OSS senior officer in that area. And it's

1053
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:25,639
a very interesting thing because Allen Dulles and his brother,

1054
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,840
John Foster Dolles were with this large law firm in

1055
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:35,599
New York, Sullivan Cromwell. Sullivan Cromwell had offices throughout Germany

1056
01:00:35,679 --> 01:00:40,639
all through the thirties, and the Dulles brothers were very

1057
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:45,239
close to the Tyson Steel Works and ig Farbron company.

1058
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,639
In fact, interestingly enough, the agency's headquarters in Germany after

1059
01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:52,760
the war was in Frankfurt, Germany, in the IG Farbron building.

1060
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,039
Speaker 1: You know, just happened that way.

1061
01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:01,599
Speaker 4: Well, the Dulles contacts that people thought would be OSS

1062
01:01:01,639 --> 01:01:06,519
intelligence work were actually the people he knew anyway, as

1063
01:01:06,519 --> 01:01:10,840
a result of his legal work in Germany, duel a

1064
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,719
Nazis while Hiller was running Germany. And if you'll recall

1065
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,679
the history, like many other American companies, even though World

1066
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,960
War Two started as far as England and France were

1067
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:25,920
concerned and Holland and Belgium and all And Poland had

1068
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,920
been attacked, the American companies did not close their offices.

1069
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:33,199
Union Bank from New York didn't close its offices in Germany.

1070
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,239
Nor did the Sullivan Cromwell until Pearl Harbor, and then

1071
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,320
they more or less had to. But then through intelligence

1072
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,119
they retained contacts, and evidence of this is rather interesting.

1073
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:51,599
Before the Germans surrendered, the Foreign Minister was a man

1074
01:01:51,679 --> 01:01:57,079
named counch Feren van Krosig, and Van Krosig, who knew

1075
01:01:57,199 --> 01:02:00,000
about some of this undercover contact and wanted to say

1076
01:02:00,119 --> 01:02:05,000
his own neck, made a speech in Berlin that is

1077
01:02:05,079 --> 01:02:10,079
reported in the London Times of May third, nineteen forty five,

1078
01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:14,920
before the German surrender. The subject of that speech was

1079
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:15,719
the court was.

1080
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: The Iron curtain.

1081
01:02:18,039 --> 01:02:20,679
Speaker 4: And when Winston Churchill, who at that time was not

1082
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,519
in the government he had been voted out during I

1083
01:02:25,519 --> 01:02:27,800
guess he was still didn't know the Potsdam conference. I

1084
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,519
forget the dates, but you know anyway, Churchill read that

1085
01:02:30,599 --> 01:02:34,239
in the Times. A little later he wrote to Harry Truman.

1086
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,920
He had never met President Truman, and he started talking

1087
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,639
about how the Communists were going to drop an iron

1088
01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:45,440
curtain over Eastern Europe. He was using the same words

1089
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,440
and almost the same speech as the German Foreign Minister had.

1090
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:54,079
Now the Foreign Minister's idea came from his Oss friends

1091
01:02:54,719 --> 01:02:58,199
and you see, the Cold War began to roll, and

1092
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:03,840
by the time Churchill spoke in Missouri that Wasminster College.

1093
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,960
Everybody credited him with the invention of the Iron Curtain

1094
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,840
idea and the activities in Eastern Europe because that fit

1095
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:13,760
the scenario of the developing Cold War.

1096
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have it wouldn't have gone.

1097
01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 4: Over if he said, oh, I copied this from the

1098
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,679
Nazi general, I mean a foreign minister that gave a speech.

1099
01:03:21,719 --> 01:03:27,079
You see how they interlinking. And Frank Wisner then became

1100
01:03:27,119 --> 01:03:30,320
one of the leading men in CIA. In the early CIA,

1101
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,639
before the law created CIA, we had OPC that was

1102
01:03:35,719 --> 01:03:39,039
done to keep the records together during the interim between

1103
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:42,880
the end of OSS and the law making the CIA. Well,

1104
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,960
Wisner is the one who carried that through. So the

1105
01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:47,280
linkage there, as.

1106
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:49,159
Speaker 1: You've just pointed out, was very important.

1107
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 5: I assume that the same Galen network, or the remnants

1108
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,559
of it, still existed by nineteen sixty three and may

1109
01:03:55,599 --> 01:03:58,280
have been part of what was threatened when Kennedy said

1110
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,800
in October that he would splinter a CIA into a

1111
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:01,880
thousand pieces.

1112
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,639
Speaker 4: Galen oddly was brought to the United States by direction

1113
01:04:07,719 --> 01:04:11,079
of Walter Beadle Smith, General Smith, who was the Eisenhewer's

1114
01:04:11,119 --> 01:04:15,840
chief of staff. Smith became the ambassador to Russia immediately

1115
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,519
upon the end of the war, following Avril Harriman, who

1116
01:04:19,519 --> 01:04:20,079
had been there.

1117
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:20,679
Speaker 1: All through the war.

1118
01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:25,119
Speaker 4: He flew him flew Galen with all his files that

1119
01:04:25,159 --> 01:04:29,719
he had buried to Washington andrews Field, and by special

1120
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,800
act of the US Congress, General Galen of Nazi Germany

1121
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:35,599
was made an American general.

1122
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: He worked here for a while, was.

1123
01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:41,519
Speaker 4: Brought back to Germany in Frankfurt in the ig Fireman Building,

1124
01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:46,960
and then from there Adnauer, the new leader of Germany

1125
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,360
of West Germany, moved him to Bond where he became

1126
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,639
the head of German intelligence, as he should have been,

1127
01:04:53,639 --> 01:04:55,760
because a little awkward to have him be an American general.

1128
01:04:56,079 --> 01:05:00,719
So he became the head of German intelligence for many,

1129
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,119
many years, all the time I was active, he was

1130
01:05:03,159 --> 01:05:03,679
still there.

1131
01:05:05,159 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 5: I understood from forty five to forty eight about three

1132
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:11,239
hundred of his spies came in to work with CIA,

1133
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:16,119
and others came from the Nazi quisling governments.

1134
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 2: The Bilarusian government.

1135
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,039
Speaker 5: The White Russian government sent about three hundred people here

1136
01:05:21,039 --> 01:05:23,199
to the United States that worked in radio for Europe

1137
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:25,800
and Radio America and Voice of America.

1138
01:05:26,039 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 4: You mentioned Walder Donburger. Dornberger was von Braun's boss at Pinmunda,

1139
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:37,000
one of the greatest rocket scientists that's ever lived, And

1140
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,719
when I was writing this book I referred to for

1141
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,960
the OURTC program. I went to Buffalo, where Dornberger had

1142
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:47,039
offices in the Bell Corporation, and I interviewed him at

1143
01:05:47,119 --> 01:05:52,079
length on their rocket program because we had nothing like

1144
01:05:52,119 --> 01:05:53,760
it in the United States, and I had to go

1145
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,360
to the best source, so the Air Force told me

1146
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:01,880
to go see Dornburger. Well the link between Nazi Pinamunda

1147
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:07,960
and their rockets and the Bell Corporation and the acquisition

1148
01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:12,639
of Bell by the Textron Corporation, and the gaining of

1149
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:19,360
the big helicopter contract for Vietnam, the Huey helicopters, and

1150
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,440
then into some of the lore of the Dallas era

1151
01:06:23,519 --> 01:06:26,079
which you've mentioned in the Pain Family and people like that.

1152
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:31,280
It's just too linked to be casual see. And I

1153
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,119
know from the talks I had over a few days

1154
01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:38,519
with Well the Dornburger, that he was well aware of

1155
01:06:38,559 --> 01:06:42,800
the fact. In fact, he told me that he was

1156
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,480
trying to help Bell get ahead with jet engines that

1157
01:06:45,599 --> 01:06:47,679
was new in those days, and he did. Bell had

1158
01:06:47,679 --> 01:06:50,039
a fine jet airplane for a while, but they moved

1159
01:06:50,119 --> 01:06:54,880
quickly into helicopters where there was a big opening. And

1160
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,880
it was because of Dornberger's experience and his relationship with

1161
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,760
Van Braun and the people who had brought him out

1162
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,880
of Germany. And later we had a more or less

1163
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,719
formal program within the structure that I was working on

1164
01:07:09,559 --> 01:07:16,239
called deepwater Flights. We flew thousands of Germans from CIA's

1165
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:20,119
air base in Wiesbaden to andrews Field in the United States.

1166
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,239
There's a book out called Blowback that tells the story.

1167
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 1: But thousands of them.

1168
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 4: Many were technical experts, and we needed the technical experts

1169
01:07:28,519 --> 01:07:31,440
and so on. But this is what tended to heat

1170
01:07:31,519 --> 01:07:33,039
up the Cold War so fast.

1171
01:07:34,079 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 5: I always thought it was significant to both Allen Dulles,

1172
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,119
who you mentioned in terms of the plans for the

1173
01:07:38,159 --> 01:07:41,400
secret surrender of Galen after the war, and the High

1174
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,159
Commissioner of Germany, the Allied High Commissioner after the war,

1175
01:07:44,239 --> 01:07:47,360
John J. McCloy, who worked with Sullivan and Cromwell and

1176
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,800
was a Rockfeller banker for many years sat on the

1177
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,599
Warrant Commission. McCloy was responsible for pardoning many of the

1178
01:07:53,679 --> 01:07:54,960
key Nazis at the time of.

1179
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:56,239
Speaker 2: The Nuremberg Trials.

1180
01:07:56,239 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 5: Another key figure in this scenario I think is Leon

1181
01:07:59,079 --> 01:08:02,840
Jaworski worked for the Army at the Nuremberg Trials. I

1182
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,679
believe undermined the prosecution of the Nazis at those trials.

1183
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,880
Came back left there and worked for International Red Cross

1184
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,559
Rescue Division, which provided the Glossenspiel, the phony IDs for

1185
01:08:15,639 --> 01:08:18,800
some of the Ratline Nazis, and movement of Nazis out

1186
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,119
of Germany under false id or to hide them in

1187
01:08:21,119 --> 01:08:24,560
the DP camps. And he later worked for a CIA

1188
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,039
conduit fund, the jam Anderson Fund in Dallas, and then

1189
01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:31,520
suddenly shows up as the official liaison between the Dallas

1190
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:36,359
Police and the Warren Commission investigation, and later on, of

1191
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:38,840
course is the most trusted man in America when he

1192
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,439
handles the cover of both the Watergate Koreagate.

1193
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:48,199
Speaker 4: In the Dallas area ostensibly I believe, to provide counsel

1194
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:51,760
to Oswald, who didn't live more than forty eight hours.

1195
01:08:52,279 --> 01:08:53,319
Speaker 1: Interesting linkage this.

1196
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,159
Speaker 5: When you were at this level, I mean, I'm sure

1197
01:08:57,159 --> 01:08:59,079
you've got a sense of how things are done. You

1198
01:08:59,119 --> 01:09:03,399
mentioned earlier that some disgruntled oilmen or angry Cubans or

1199
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,880
mafia enemies of Kennedy could not have pulled off the

1200
01:09:08,039 --> 01:09:10,239
job at the level it was done, nor have covered

1201
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:14,600
it up to move beyond that level. Could the Joint

1202
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,479
Use of Staff or the Defense Intelligence Agency or the

1203
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:22,039
CIA or a renegade element in those groups have pulled

1204
01:09:22,079 --> 01:09:24,039
off the job and covered it up? Or does it

1205
01:09:24,079 --> 01:09:24,720
go beyond that?

1206
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 4: The answer, of course is not simple, but it's tucked

1207
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,760
away in facts that we all can think about. The

1208
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:39,960
Central Intelligence Agency is called an agency on purpose. Law

1209
01:09:40,159 --> 01:09:43,760
makes it that, which means then it works for somebody.

1210
01:09:44,159 --> 01:09:47,319
So an agency doesn't work for itself. The Defense Department

1211
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,560
works for itself, but the agency works for others. The

1212
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:56,159
Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, they used to

1213
01:09:56,239 --> 01:09:59,119
all be under the office I worked in under General

1214
01:09:59,199 --> 01:10:02,279
erskin for the Secret of Defense called the Officer Special Operations.

1215
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,880
We provided the linkage to CIA into NSA. DIA didn't exist,

1216
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:09,079
but General Erskine is the creator of DA.

1217
01:10:09,239 --> 01:10:11,039
Speaker 1: He wrote the thing. So you noticed the.

1218
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 4: A and the agency there means that higher authority can

1219
01:10:17,159 --> 01:10:21,159
use the agency, and at that point you learned pretty

1220
01:10:21,199 --> 01:10:25,560
quick that higher authority doesn't necessarily wear a uniform or

1221
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:27,880
the pinstripe of state department.

1222
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:29,399
Speaker 1: It's higher.

1223
01:10:30,359 --> 01:10:34,039
Speaker 4: I remember during the war hearing that a close friend

1224
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:39,119
of Winston Churchill, Lord Denning, who somewhat.

1225
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,359
Speaker 1: Like to the Chief Justice.

1226
01:10:41,119 --> 01:10:46,319
Speaker 4: Here, would talk about Churchill in his He knew Denning

1227
01:10:46,399 --> 01:10:50,000
very well and his just conversational talk using the term

1228
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,840
high cabal, and he would turn to friends and say,

1229
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,399
you know, if Churchill is talking about a high cabal,

1230
01:10:59,119 --> 01:10:59,960
what's up above there?

1231
01:11:00,199 --> 01:11:02,239
Speaker 1: See? But we live with that, we know that.

1232
01:11:02,319 --> 01:11:05,520
Speaker 4: And you've mentioned different companies that have been in journal,

1233
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,159
like Sullivan Cromwell, and the links between Ig Fireman and

1234
01:11:09,199 --> 01:11:13,560
the General Electric had If you study those structures, the

1235
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:19,239
Brown and Harriman interests, they existed in Germany all through

1236
01:11:19,279 --> 01:11:23,000
this period and only reluctantly closed down at the Pearl

1237
01:11:23,039 --> 01:11:25,479
Harbor time, but the linkages remained. As soon as the

1238
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:26,920
war ended, they were right back in there again.

1239
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:27,520
Speaker 1: You see.

1240
01:11:28,159 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 4: These are important to try to understand this because in

1241
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,880
my point of view, the Kennedy family was oriented more

1242
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:39,600
to the European power structure than they were to Asia,

1243
01:11:40,359 --> 01:11:41,880
and I think that had a lot to do with

1244
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,560
why Kennedy didn't want to get involved in Vietnam. He'd

1245
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,600
much rather see our money and our forces and our

1246
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:53,560
interests back in Asia where his friends and his father's

1247
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,000
business friends who were among the group in Brown, Harriman

1248
01:11:57,159 --> 01:11:59,960
and so on were that was there.

1249
01:12:00,119 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 1: This is where they worked.

1250
01:12:01,319 --> 01:12:02,119
Speaker 2: I thought it was interested.

1251
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,119
Speaker 5: Some of the founders of Brown and Harriman as well,

1252
01:12:06,199 --> 01:12:09,680
April Harriman, and some of the key bankers that were

1253
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,000
linked to the Deutsche Bank and the money in Germany

1254
01:12:12,039 --> 01:12:14,960
in those years were Skull and Bones graduates in Yale,

1255
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:18,600
and I believe it's nine ninety nine along with Prescott Bush,

1256
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,960
George Bush's father, and he seems to have had financial

1257
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:23,159
and other ties with them.

1258
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:28,079
Speaker 4: Go Prescott Bush was running the Combine. In fact, I

1259
01:12:28,079 --> 01:12:30,079
think for a while he ran Union Bank, which was.

1260
01:12:30,079 --> 01:12:30,600
Speaker 1: Part of that.

1261
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 4: And of course it all goes back in one respect

1262
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:40,039
to the enormous wealth derived from the oil industry. And

1263
01:12:40,119 --> 01:12:43,159
to understand that you begin to see some of these

1264
01:12:43,159 --> 01:12:46,439
other horizons. And we may want to talk about that

1265
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,840
one of these days, because if there is this much

1266
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:54,319
being done at the hike of aal level, you have

1267
01:12:54,399 --> 01:12:57,239
to believe that it is being done because of enormous

1268
01:12:57,319 --> 01:13:02,159
amounts of money and one little clue lifting the corner

1269
01:13:02,159 --> 01:13:05,880
of the tarpel in here a bit between nineteen seventy

1270
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,880
three and nineteen eighty when we had the energy crisis

1271
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,520
and we're waiting at gas stations with our cars to

1272
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:13,920
buy a little bit of ac at an exorbitant price.

1273
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:19,079
Speaker 1: The same oil sources.

1274
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 4: In the Middle East, five countries that received fifteen billion

1275
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:27,359
dollars for their oil in nineteen seventy three received three

1276
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,319
hundred billion dollars for roughly the same quantity of oil

1277
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:33,000
in nineteen eighty.

1278
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 1: So it's so profitable.

1279
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 4: I mean, how can you think there isn't an interest

1280
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,079
in the oil business and their bankers and their lawyers,

1281
01:13:43,239 --> 01:13:45,680
and the collateral firms like the automobile industry and the

1282
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:47,399
aviation industry that run with it.

1283
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's only here in America where the

1284
01:13:50,279 --> 01:13:53,520
press and the pundits and the historians even seemed to

1285
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:57,760
buy into the idea of coincidence theory that nothing links

1286
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,279
to anything else Whereas in Europe, the immediate question and

1287
01:14:00,279 --> 01:14:04,039
a political assassination is kibono or who benefits and what

1288
01:14:04,079 --> 01:14:06,840
are those benefits besides the profit It would seem to

1289
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,680
me that the motivating forces behind conspiracies on this level

1290
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,760
are not only the profit, but it's in its perpetuity,

1291
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:16,319
but control of resources around the world like oil and

1292
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,279
other types of political control.

1293
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:25,640
Speaker 4: And unfortunately it leads into another area that is too

1294
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:29,800
much overlooked is the disregard for the peoples of many

1295
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,600
of these other areas, because in a search for oil,

1296
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:34,920
sometimes the people that are already there are getting the way.

1297
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,840
And so you begin to accept Malthusianism that, well, it

1298
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,680
wouldn't hurt to wipe the people out. They're not going

1299
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:45,000
to have enough food anyway. And Darwin said the fittest

1300
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,680
are going to survive, but not the unfit. So there's

1301
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:51,159
a little genocide. Two or three thousand Iraqis die because

1302
01:14:51,199 --> 01:14:54,279
of desert storm. Don't worry about it, because they're gonna

1303
01:14:54,319 --> 01:14:54,880
die anyway.

1304
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,159
Speaker 1: Malthus proved it.

1305
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:00,319
Speaker 4: Darwin convinced us that the better people will you know,

1306
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:04,079
that's behind a lot of this, not just capitalism, communism

1307
01:15:04,119 --> 01:15:07,760
and so on. And yet under the ground in Arabia,

1308
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,800
in Iraq is one of the biggest oil reserves known

1309
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:17,640
in the whole world. So we're protecting interests in Iraq.

1310
01:15:18,159 --> 01:15:19,920
The Iraqis don't own those companies.

1311
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:25,520
Speaker 5: How do you think from this point the case in

1312
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:29,920
the John F. Kennedy's destination could best be solved. I

1313
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,520
know that getting the records loose is one of the

1314
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,840
goals that we've been working on recently. But those records

1315
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,760
are not going to tell us the whole story. They're

1316
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:41,800
little snapshots. It's worth looking at them. We get a

1317
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,159
little bigger piece of the picture. But ultimately, what at

1318
01:15:45,159 --> 01:15:47,920
this point, what should we research? If we're going to

1319
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:49,880
do that, what's the next step.

1320
01:15:52,079 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 4: Because this hurdle has been established that so many records

1321
01:15:56,439 --> 01:16:00,760
are out of reach, we've got to erase that. It

1322
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,359
would surprise me if it's much more than a decoy deal.

1323
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:07,119
But there's material in there, and experts know how to

1324
01:16:07,119 --> 01:16:09,399
read these records and get more out of them than

1325
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:11,880
the congressman did. Because if the congressman got the answers out,

1326
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:13,800
you could be sure they would have rushed to the papers.

1327
01:16:14,079 --> 01:16:16,760
But they hid the records because probably they were worthless.

1328
01:16:17,079 --> 01:16:21,039
But anyway, we should get them because they must be removed.

1329
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:23,680
But the next thing is, and this is what's gonna

1330
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,119
I was talking to Oliver Stone about this last night.

1331
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:28,640
The people are gonna see this movie and they getting interested.

1332
01:16:29,039 --> 01:16:32,039
So they getting interested in freeing these records from this

1333
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:37,000
control that they're seventy five years. But the next step

1334
01:16:37,159 --> 01:16:40,199
is if they're freed, and if the Warren Commission report

1335
01:16:40,279 --> 01:16:42,920
is just demolished and we know that Oswald was nothing

1336
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,359
but a patsy and so on, American public is going

1337
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:48,319
to sit back and they're going to say, all right, now, now,

1338
01:16:48,399 --> 01:16:51,760
why was Kennedy killed? What really is behind this? That

1339
01:16:52,119 --> 01:16:54,800
these records don't prove it? The Warren Commission didn't you

1340
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:58,600
know there was something more? If you imagine what that's

1341
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,600
going to be. That's the explosion is around the corner.

1342
01:17:02,199 --> 01:17:05,439
This film is only starting it. But when the records

1343
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:08,520
come free, we'll study them and there may be a

1344
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:10,840
lot more in there than most people think. The Congressman

1345
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,000
must not have thought so. But I want them to

1346
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,439
bring the military records out with the CI, NFBI and

1347
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,640
other father I think, oh and I the Navy will

1348
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:21,880
have records that they.

1349
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:22,600
Speaker 1: Didn't even see up there.

1350
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:27,159
Speaker 4: Once that's done, at least we know what the platform is.

1351
01:17:28,039 --> 01:17:30,079
But that next step is going to be big, because

1352
01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:34,039
who can give the authority to act upon what's in

1353
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:38,479
the records. I would say only Congress as an almost

1354
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:43,319
by unanimous vote, and the president, you know, or one

1355
01:17:43,399 --> 01:17:45,720
or the other trying to outgun the other one. And

1356
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:49,319
right now I don't see Congress able to unite behind it,

1357
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,960
and if they don't, aren't able to unite behind it.

1358
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,960
I think mister Bush or any other president will sort

1359
01:17:55,960 --> 01:18:00,119
of ignore the problem because every president since Kennedy has

1360
01:18:00,119 --> 01:18:03,479
been killed, says the Warrant Commission suffices. As far as

1361
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,640
he's concerned, He's perfectly happy with the loan gunman up

1362
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:10,279
there on a sixth floor. Give or take Lyndon Johnson's

1363
01:18:10,279 --> 01:18:14,439
recanting of that a few months before he died, when

1364
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:17,640
he said, I believe in a conspiracy. Oswald didn't do

1365
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:23,119
it alone, and we operate murder incorporated. We murder perpetually.

1366
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,119
I think that winds up the story at that point.

1367
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 5: We know that many of the witnesses Penn Jones, the researcher,

1368
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,760
suggests maybe as many as one hundred and seventy five

1369
01:18:32,399 --> 01:18:37,119
have died strangely or in violent circumstances. We know that

1370
01:18:37,199 --> 01:18:41,479
much of the evidence has been destroyed or altered since

1371
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:44,159
the time of the Kennedy assassination, and we know that

1372
01:18:44,399 --> 01:18:48,079
the phony autopsy that was done at Bethesda was an

1373
01:18:48,079 --> 01:18:50,760
illegal autopsy under Texas law, and that the body should

1374
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,800
have never been removed. One researcher in a recent meeting

1375
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:57,760
in Dallas where I was on the case, suggested walking

1376
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:01,600
into the courthouse there in Dallas and convening a grand

1377
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:05,560
jury and beginning a full trial investigation in Dallas with

1378
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,159
the evidence that's left, the witnesses that haven't come forward,

1379
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,880
and putting it back en route. Do you think that

1380
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,039
there's a possibility at that level of opening it up

1381
01:19:15,079 --> 01:19:17,279
as a trial or an investigation.

1382
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:19,199
Speaker 1: John, you don't have to research that.

1383
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 4: The law of the United States is that every murder

1384
01:19:24,199 --> 01:19:27,159
must be tried in the state where it occurred. The

1385
01:19:27,199 --> 01:19:29,680
state of Texas owes us a trial. You can have

1386
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:33,920
a trial against John Doe. So you're right, the means

1387
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,399
are there, and it has to be done according to law.

1388
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:38,239
And there's nothing to stop the State of Texas from

1389
01:19:38,239 --> 01:19:41,239
doing that except Whndon Johnson told them, don't do it. See,

1390
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:46,279
but that's a fabricated thing too. See, that's the story

1391
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:47,000
up to here.

1392
01:19:47,039 --> 01:19:55,800
Speaker 3: Anyway, you're listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network, Just

1393
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:56,560
the facts, Mammy