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True Murder with your host, 58 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.560 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 59 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:52.639 Good Evening. It was the biggest funeral Chicago had seen 60 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:58.919 since Lincoln's. On May twenty sixth, eighteen eighty nine, four 61 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:03.400 thousand mourners seated down Michigan Avenue, followed by a crowd 62 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:07.400 forty thousand strong in a howl of protest at what 63 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:12.520 commentators called one of the gasliest and most curious crimes 64 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:18.800 in civilized history. The dead Man Doctor P. H. Cronan 65 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.599 was a respected Irish physician, but his brutal murder uncovered 66 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:28.199 a web of intrigue, secrecy, and corruption that stretched across 67 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:34.319 the United States and far beyond Blood Runs Green tells 68 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.719 the story of Cronan's murder, from the police investigation to 69 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.759 the trial. It is a story of hot headed journalists 70 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:47.240 in pursuit of sensational crimes, of a bungling police force 71 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.759 riddled with informers and spies, and of a secret revolutionary 72 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:55.840 society determined to free Ireland from Britain, but succeeding only 73 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.759 in tearing itself apart. It is also the story of 74 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.240 a booming immigrant population clamoring for power at a time 75 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:09.680 of unprecedented change. From back rooms to courtrooms, historian Gillian 76 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:14.360 O'Brien defintely navigates the complexities of Irish Chicago, bringing to 77 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.959 life a rich caste of characters and tracing the spectacular 78 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:23.040 rise and fall of the secret Irish American society Clan 79 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.000 nee Gale. She draws on real life accounts and sources 80 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.800 from the United States, Ireland, and Britain to cast new 81 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.800 light on Clan the Gale and reveal how Irish Republicanism 82 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:41.519 swept across the United States. Destined to be a true 83 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.480 crime classic, Blood Runs Green as an enthralling tale of 84 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:50.120 a murder that captivated the world and reverberated through Society 85 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:54.800 long after the coffin closed. The book that we are 86 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:59.839 featuring this evening is Blood Runs Green with my special 87 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:10.759 guest journalist, author and historian Jillian O'Brien. And Jillian O'Brien 88 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:20.480 is calling from Liverpool, England today and using our direct 89 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:27.800 connect with the instructions provided by blog talk radio, and 90 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:36.600 we have a problem connecting for those unfortunate persons there 91 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:42.639 will listen to this live which are a handful. We 92 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.639 will give Jillian for customary a few minutes to try 93 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:52.800 to connect and I'll edit this portion out. I don't 94 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.759 want to promise to do that, but I will and 95 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:01.759 if not, I'm sure Jillian is still very interested in 96 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:06.399 being interviewed regarding her book Blood Wind's Green, and there 97 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:13.480 she is right now. Good evening, Jillian O'Brien, Good evening. 98 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.959 I just did the introduction for your book, Blood Wren's Green. 99 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:22.519 Thank you very much for a green to this interview. 100 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.600 I know you're calling from your home in Liverpool. 101 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.240 Is that correct, that's correct. 102 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.800 I want to thank you very much. Let's start off 103 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.040 with really the necessary background on your book, the history 104 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:47.079 behind the formation of the secret Irish Republican move in 105 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:53.120 terms of the societies that were predecessed or were prior 106 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.279 to the Clan Nee Gale, and so tell us about 107 00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.199 the Fenians and before the Clan the Gale, and tell 108 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:05.600 us about that whole formation of Irish republican partner, the 109 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:10.000 Irish secret societies and the formation of this clan the Gale. 110 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.120 And if I've mispronounced that, please correct me. 111 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:18.199 No, no, no, you're quite accurate. Well, the Fenians and 112 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:23.160 Clane Gale come out of I suppose they're posts the 113 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.040 Irish Famine, when the huge numbers of Irish had emigrated, 114 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:29.959 many of them to the United States, many of them 115 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.399 to Canada, and there was a growing belief that the 116 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:38.759 only way to defeat the British and to regain or 117 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.920 gain control of Ireland and establish in Irish republic was 118 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.759 through using force to do so, that constitutional means wouldn't 119 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:50.360 necessarily work, and so a number of groups were established, 120 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.360 and probably the most well known of those was the 121 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:58.319 Fenian group, which was established in the late eighteen fifties, 122 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.920 and that group as a secret society and it's it 123 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.160 was dedicated to using force to try and establish an 124 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.519 Irish Republic, and very often in these Irish Secret Society 125 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.839 is the very first thing on any agenda is the split. 126 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.639 And so there were a lot of divisions within those 127 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:21.399 groups between how they would achieve this freedom and the 128 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.240 various strategies that would use, and the level of connection 129 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.519 they would have with their counterpart in Ireland and in Britain. 130 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.799 And so the Fenian Movement U ultimately had sort of 131 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.399 a series of uprisings or attempted uprisings in the late 132 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.960 eighteen sixties, particularly in eighteen sixty seven, and there were 133 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.679 again they weren't as successful as they thought they would be, 134 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:48.240 and out of the sort of disappointment associated with the 135 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.879 lack of success, you have a split in the Fenian movement, 136 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.519 and out of that you get the establishment of a 137 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.440 group called Clan the Gale, which means the Family of 138 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.360 the Irish or the Family of the Gale. And that's 139 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.679 the group that I was particularly interested in when I 140 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:03.000 came to write the book. 141 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:11.480 Now let's talk about also the You talked about the 142 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.720 strategy to be able to free Ireland from Britain, and 143 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.080 this was about but this also comes from a tradition 144 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.559 of these secret societies in Ireland, like you mentioned the 145 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:28.000 Hibernians and the Freemasons, and other fractured societies. So tell 146 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:32.000 us a little bit more about again, because very important 147 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.720 we talk about spies and how they would try to 148 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:40.200 weed out informers in these organizations, and especially as the 149 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:43.840 Klan the Gale and it progressed further. So tell us 150 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:47.879 about the importance in the secret societies and some of 151 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:50.559 the codes that were involved, and where it really came from. 152 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:51.399 The traditions. 153 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.679 Well, the traditional really of secret society, certain in Irish publicism, 154 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.120 goes back to the end of the eighteenth century. At 155 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.200 the end of the eighteenth century there was a group 156 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:07.080 established called the Society of United Irishmen, and that society 157 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.320 was set up really inspired by the French Revolution, and 158 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.360 they set themselves up to achieve Irish independence and they 159 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:19.159 led in seventeen ninety eight, the largest rebellion ever seen 160 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:22.519 on Irish soil. Now, one of the problems with the 161 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:24.360 Society of United Irish Man is that it was a 162 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:29.519 secret society and it was designed to operate in secrets. 163 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:31.679 But one of the issues that they had was that 164 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.559 they held many of their meetings will be held in 165 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.440 essentially saloons or bars, which isn't ideal for any sort 166 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.840 of secret society. Because a lot of alcohol's been taken 167 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:46.240 very often, the secrets begin to pass around those areas, 168 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:51.559 and so later generations had recognized that there were issues 169 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.720 to do with secrecy and the problems with secrecy within 170 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.600 these Irish Republican organizations, and so by the time you 171 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.120 get to the Fenian movement, they have established quite a 172 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.000 developed sort of level of secrecy, and they are inspired 173 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:12.720 by sort of the Freemasons and a number of other organizations. 174 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.799 So there are things like secret codes. So if you 175 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.840 were to meet but a member of Planet Gale or 176 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.799 with the Fenians, you would if you were a member 177 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.120 and you wanted to alert another man to another man 178 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:26.960 that it was a member, you would run your finger 179 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.840 along the inside of your collar from sort of where 180 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.759 your ear is down towards your neck, and you would 181 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.320 do that twice, and that would indicate to the person 182 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.840 you were looking at that you were a member. If 183 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.480 they recognized that symbol, they would respond by running the 184 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:45.399 middle finger of their right hand down the side of 185 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.519 their face. So then you would recognize each other and 186 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:50.440 be able to converse about sort of secret matters. So 187 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.159 they had all sorts of sort of secret signs in 188 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.879 that way. They also in some cases wrote in invisible 189 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.440 ink and they had a code to the plane, had 190 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:02.559 a code that they use, a sort of secret cipher 191 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.840 which they wrote in code. Now, the problem with that 192 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.480 was that it was a very easily it was a 193 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:11.960 very discoverable code. So all they did was they replaced 194 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:17.440 one letter with another, So you would replace the letter 195 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:20.000 I with the letter J, so each letter that came 196 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.720 after it in the OFFHBET will be replaced. So it 197 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:28.600 was extremely easy to decipher, and therefore anytime a letter 198 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.440 was intercepted, the British police would easily know what the 199 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:34.120 plans were. 200 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.120 Now you talk about the clan was founded in the 201 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.039 US in New York and they call that District Day 202 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:48.279 and in Chicago was a huge Irish presence, and you 203 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.840 can tell us about what I'm referring to in terms 204 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.320 of the importance of Chicago at that time as a 205 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.399 city as well. But it was Chicago's district key and 206 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.480 which also included all of Illinois and Michigan. So tell 207 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.960 us a little bit about that before we talk about 208 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.279 the importance of fundraising in all of this. 209 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:14.840 Well, the East coast of the United States was where 210 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.360 a lot of these organizations started, and that isn't really 211 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.639 a surprise because a lot of those who became members 212 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:26.320 of these organizations had come from Ireland during the Great 213 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.200 Irish Famine of the eighteen forties and in the years afterwards, 214 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.080 and so most of those who arrived would have arrived 215 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.279 along the east as the Eastern Seaboard, so they would 216 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.519 have landed into Boston, or they would have landed into 217 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:40.799 New York, and they established themselves in those cities, and 218 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.240 they then spread through the United States. So most of 219 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:49.080 these organizations began along the Eastern seaboard. But as the 220 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.720 trains moved towards the west, as new opportunities for growth 221 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:58.639 and for jobs developed, many of the Irish in New York, 222 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.480 in Boston and other places also moved west. And one 223 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:05.320 of the places that they moved to was Chicago. A 224 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.639 lot of them moved part of doing for building the 225 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.080 Big Canal network, an awful lot moved because of the 226 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.000 stockyards and the employment available in the stockyards. A lot 227 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.360 of them moved because of the railways. And so you 228 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.120 have a move west as far west really as San Francisco, 229 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.000 where you begin to have a large Irish population. So 230 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.679 by the time we get to the eighteen eighties, and 231 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.159 particularly in the period after the Great Fire of eighteen 232 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:36.240 seventy one, when Chicago had to entirely rebuild itself, and 233 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.399 it did with great enthusiasm, but it also did with 234 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.960 huge manpower, and many Irish came and rebuilt Chicago into 235 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:47.519 something that was bigger and better and grander than had 236 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.120 existed before. And that's really why you get that move 237 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.480 from the East coast to the Midwest. But it's also 238 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.879 because the leadership of the Catholic Church, and most of 239 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.799 these Irish who were involved were Catholic. The leadership of 240 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:08.480 the Catholic Church in Chicago with more sympathetic towards radical 241 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.399 Irish Republicanism than it was in other parts of the 242 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:12.159 United States. 243 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:18.200 Right now, we talked you talk about the numerous Saint 244 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:29.120 Patrick's Day and other celebrations holidays that the Irish celebrated. 245 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:32.720 Parton me and and you also talked about fundraising and 246 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:37.440 then the lure of jobs. So for for sheer numbers 247 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.639 and for and for for the Klan and Gale. How 248 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:47.320 important were these picnics fundraisers and the influence that a 249 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.879 lot of these people were interested in jobs, and there 250 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.559 was promises of jobs with membership. 251 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.480 Yeah, well that's very true. I mean, I don't know 252 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.600 that they ever directly promised jobs, but it was certainly 253 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.879 the case that if you were a member, and if 254 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.879 you knew senior members of Connagale who tended to be 255 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.720 relatively well off, I mean there was there was definitely 256 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.039 a sort of class structure, so that the leaders of 257 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.279 Colnegale and the other organizations were very often they were journalists, 258 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.080 or they were lawyers, or they had senior positions in 259 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.039 the police force. And a lot of these rank and 260 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.039 file members would have been laborers or unskilled workers. Now 261 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.679 in Chicago, if you were arriving in Chicago as an 262 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.200 unskilled labor you certainly needed a job, and you wouldn't 263 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.279 have been long in Chicago before somebody would suggest that 264 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.120 joining Colnegale what would have was the way forward to 265 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:46.919 getting a job. Now, in terms of raising money, they 266 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.399 Conegale and other groups really did raise a lot of 267 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.200 money through their picnics, through the Saint Patrick's Day parades, 268 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.240 and that money and through membership. You had to pay 269 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.240 a sub to become a member, and you would pay 270 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.000 a weekly amount as well, and that money was used 271 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:08.119 to pay for their campaigns to achieve Irish freedom. So 272 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.799 the attraction really for many people was the job over 273 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:16.079 Irish freedom, and they put that first and foremost. In 274 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.559 Irish freedom was very much a secondary affair. 275 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:27.559 This push for Irish independence really had a new chronicle, 276 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.519 and in your book some major events that really helped 277 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.920 ignite the population and rally the population in a certain 278 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:41.119 concerted effort. Finally, and including you talk about T. D. 279 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:46.200 Sullivan's God Save Ireland, which became basically the national anthem 280 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:51.319 for impracticality, and you talk about some of the Finian 281 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:55.400 prisoners that were given amnesty, and you talked about the 282 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.720 Irish Republican Brotherhood and Devoy Donovan Rosa when he was 283 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.079 handcuffed behind his back for thirty five days. Tell us 284 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.440 about a couple of these events that really helped to 285 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:07.559 shape this movement. 286 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.039 Yeah, well that's true. I mean they required I saw 287 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:17.039 some great, big sort of visuals to attract attention. And 288 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.559 in the early eighteen seventies there was an amnesty in 289 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.880 British and Irish jails where quite a number of men 290 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:28.319 who had been arrested and tried and found guilty of 291 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.319 treasonable offenses. So they were found guilty of membership of 292 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.799 the Fenian organization, and they were Some of them were 293 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.759 found guilty of plotting to bomb a number of places 294 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.160 and they would have served time in British and Irish prisons, 295 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.440 one of them being O'Donovan Rossa, who was particularly badly treated. 296 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.519 Another was John Devoy, who became a great leader of 297 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:52.039 Irish America. And when O'Donovan Rossa and John Devoy, along 298 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.000 with another number of other leaders, they arrived sort of 299 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:58.119 in triumph, having been released from jail. And when they 300 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.839 were released from jail, they were they had to leave 301 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.799 Ireland permanently. They were banished from Ireland forever. So they 302 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:09.160 land into America and O'Donovan Rossa and Devoi come on 303 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:12.920 a boat called the Cuba and they become part of 304 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.400 a gang known as the Cuba Five, and they were 305 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.680 going to senior figures and they arrived to great fanfare, 306 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.759 and they become extremely well known, particularly along the Eastern seaboard. 307 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:25.920 And that attracts a lot of attention and a lot 308 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:28.319 of new members. And then the other big thing that 309 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:30.559 attracted a lot of attention in new members was in 310 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.559 the mid eighteen seventies with the Catalpa Rescue. And the 311 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.279 Catalpa was a whaling ship that was bought by the 312 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.400 Fenian organization and it was kitted out and sent from 313 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.200 Maine to Australia. And the purpose of it going from 314 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.319 Maine to Australia was not on a whaling mission, but 315 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:54.519 it was going to Fremantle in Western Australia, which was 316 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.640 a penal'con colony at the time, and the idea was 317 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.400 that it would rescue five Fenian prison from that Fenian 318 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.839 colony and bring them back in triumph to America. Now 319 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:07.839 that sounds like a completely bonkers plan in the mid 320 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.200 eighteen seventies. You've no way of communicating, you don't know 321 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.599 how long the ship's going to take, you don't know 322 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.119 the ship is ever going to even make it there, 323 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:17.880 So it seems like a ridiculously expensive and futile plan. 324 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.000 But the remarkable thing is that it takes a year 325 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.559 for the ship to get to Fremantle, and they do 326 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.079 manage to get these five Fenian prisoners and they achieve 327 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.400 their escape, and they sail back to New York and 328 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.240 they are greeted in triumphs, and the Mayor of New 329 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.279 York comes down and welcomes them to New York and 330 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.480 in Dublin and in Cork in Ireland. They have candlelight 331 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.279 processions to say how wonderful this is. And that brings 332 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:51.759 with it huge numbers of new members to the Fenian 333 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.440 organization at Clonegale, and it brings with it money because 334 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.240 the more members you have, the more money you have 335 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.839 coming into the coffers. So they have a number of 336 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:03.759 those sort of very so it was important propaganda victories 337 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:12.000 which helps both through the numbers in the United States. 338 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.519 And this really does, like you mentioned, a huge surgeon 339 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:21.039 in members result, but also including two very of course 340 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.839 main characters in this story. Alexander Sullivan and Patrick Cronan 341 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:29.200 joined right about that time. So let's talk about first 342 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.400 Alexander Sullivan. Who is he before we get to who 343 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.079 is doctor Patrick Cronan. 344 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:42.200 Alexander Sullivan was an Irish American and he had a 345 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:48.680 very sort of checkered career. He is a very interesting 346 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.480 individual in the sense that he has a number of 347 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.799 different and very important sort of facets to his life. 348 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:58.039 He becomes involved in Irish Republicanism in the eighteen and 349 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:02.119 mid eighteen seventies after the triumph of the Catalpa. But 350 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:05.720 before that he had a number of different careers, so 351 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.319 he was a respectable businessman in some ways. He owned 352 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:13.440 a shoe store in Detroit. That shoe store had a 353 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.880 mysterious fire that burnt it to the ground, and he 354 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.119 was suspected of arson. Now he fled Detroit before the 355 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.640 trial could happen, and he ended up heading towards the 356 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.519 Southern States, where he became a tax collector. He became 357 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:29.559 a newspaper owner. He ended up back. He ended up 358 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.279 in Chicago, where he was a journalist for a short period. 359 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:36.799 He then became a city official. He was a postmaster 360 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.319 at one point, and then eventually he qualified as a 361 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.440 lawyer and all of that. During all of this period 362 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:46.599 he was involved in American politics, not Irish politics, so 363 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.680 he was an abolitionist at one point. He was a 364 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.160 member of the Republican Party. He was a Democrat at 365 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:57.440 another point. He was a gambler at a later point. 366 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.559 And he had all of these sort of myriad of 367 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.799 different careers before really he came to Irish Republicanism in 368 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.559 the mid eighteen seventies, and then he very quickly established 369 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.759 himself as a key figure in Irish Republicanism, both in 370 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.480 the United States and very specifically in Chicago. 371 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:22.720 You talk about avoiding scandal or overcoming it. Chronicle about 372 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.680 an actual, much more serious case. Tell us about the 373 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.079 most serious charge did he overcame in Chicago? 374 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.200 Well. Soon when he moved to Chicago, he first worked 375 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:38.160 as a journalist and then attended law school, And it 376 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:42.079 was while he was qualifying as a lawyer that he 377 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:44.720 became involved. And I suppose the first thing that brought 378 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.519 him to a lot of people's attention. His wife was 379 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.599 a school teacher, Margaret Sullivan, who had also left her 380 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.359 position as school teacher and become a journalist. And she 381 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.960 went on to become a very well known journalist, but 382 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:06.480 she remained involved in education matters in Chicago, and at 383 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:11.039 one significant meeting about the Board of Education in Chicago, 384 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.359 it was alleged that a rumor had circulated to say 385 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.759 that she was using undue influence with the mayor in 386 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:23.119 order to have certain Catholic schools established. And when Alexander 387 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:29.400 Sullivan heard that her honor had been insulted, he discovered 388 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.440 who had made these comments, and he went to this 389 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.480 man's house. And the man who'd made these comments was 390 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:37.519 a man called Francis Hanford, who was a school principal 391 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:40.359 in the Chicago area, and he went to this man's 392 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.559 house with his wife and there was an altercation and 393 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.519 Sullivan shot the man dead. And there were two trials. 394 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:50.400 He was tried twice for the murder of Francis Hanford. 395 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.279 On the first occasion they couldn't the jury couldn't come 396 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.880 to a conclusion. On the second occasion he was acquitted. 397 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.279 Though it's very clear from the evidence that we can 398 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:02.720 see now that the jewelry then was bribed to find 399 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:05.160 in his favor. So it was in many ways an 400 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.960 inauspicious start to his career in journalism and in law 401 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.240