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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,

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Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever

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Leave us a five star review that will really help

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And even better yet, if you're just listening to the show,

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go check out the full video version on my personal

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YouTube channel or the Federalists channel on Rumble, and then

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of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like

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to email the show, you can do so at radio

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at the Federalist dot com. I would love to hear

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from you today. I'm so excited to welcome to the

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show Erica Anderson. She's a Christian wife and mother and

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most recently the author of Freely Sober, Rethinking Alcohol through

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the Lens of Faith. This book is available now for

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pre order on Amazon and it is released on January sixth,

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just a few short weeks away, So don't sit on this.

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Definitely get a copy of this book. Today, Erica and

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I discuss her own story, her own struggles, also how

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the church can help people who struggle with this issue,

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and also how to approach alcohol and sobriety from a

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place of grace and forgiveness and empowerment rather than a

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place of shame. So, without further ado, please welcome to

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the Kayli Cast Erica Anderson. Erica Anderson, thank you so

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much for joining me today on the Kyli Guest.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to

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be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, back at you. Can you start by just

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telling our listeners a little bit about who you are,

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where you come from, and what led you to write

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this book freely sober.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 3: Well, I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm a mom of

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two kids, seven and ten, So those are sort of

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two primary things about me. But I've been writing for

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many years and you know, this is my third book,

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but a really special book for me because it really

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highlights some of the tough things I've been through regarding

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alcohol and struggles with alcohol. But I knew it was

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something that God was leading me to write as I

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was getting as I was going through that, and so

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it's been a labor of love. It's been a you know,

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a personal journey of overcoming and then wanting to use

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what I've learned and sort of some of the wisdom

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and the strength that I've gained over this time. I

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want to share that with others because it's something I

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didn't have in the beginning of this, and I want

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to make that available to people who maybe are in

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the beginning stages and just don't know where to go,

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don't know what to do next, and really need sort

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of a friend to walk them through what they're going through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. As I was reading the book, I mean, I

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haven't really looked for books about this before, but as

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I was reading it, it struck me as something that

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was both deeply personal but also something that there was

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definitely a need for. I've never seen a book like

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this before, and so you seem like the perfect person

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to write it. Can you just walk us through a

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little bit about why this book is needed. What are

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some of the cultural norms specifically that kind of led

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you down your path of struggle with alcohol.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: Well one thing that I noticed when so I've been

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sober for over five years now, but it was really

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like twenty years of leading up to me actually quitting

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before I got there. So when I started drinking, it

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was in high school, you know, innocent enough like most people,

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but it immediately felt like it was a little bit

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of a problem for me, a little bit of an

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unhealthy relationship, which I can trace back to partially genetics.

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You know, some of this people are more prone to

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addiction than others if it's in their family, and that

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is true for me. But when I finally got to

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the point where I thought I need to seriously think

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about how I could actually quit drinking, there were a

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very few faith based reas sources, and there weren't even

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a ton of even very accessible secular resources at the

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time when I first started looking into this, but specifically

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for myself, I was like, as a Christian woman, I

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don't feel like I have anything that speaks directly to me.

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Speaker 2: And so as much as I liked.

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Speaker 3: Every bit of quit lit that I read, all of

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the books about sobriety that are out there, I enjoyed those,

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they were helpful, I still felt like something was really missing,

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and so I knew when I got to this point

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that this was going to be something that really I

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felt like God was calling me to do. But to

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get back to what you were saying, women have been

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drinking more in the past twenty years than ever before.

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It's a big, long story, but to put it in

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a nutshell, alcohol marketing has played a huge part in this,

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and how they market very specific beverages to women and

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then sort of upcharge them for the same things that

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they sell to Men's called the pink tax.

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Speaker 2: And so we have.

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Speaker 3: Seen this massive campaign to target women with all kinds

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of drinking, and women have taken them up on that.

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And because of that, we have seen alcohol related deaths

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in women increase by like something like sixty percent in

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the past ten or twenty years, and it's affecting a

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whole generation of women almost unexpectedly, to where many women

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get to the point where they're like almost caught off

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guard by the fact that they actually have a problem

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and also a shame to admit it because it almost

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because it feels like you're not supposed to you know,

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it's like men sort of have always been the ones

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thought of as having a problem if you look at movies,

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if you look at history, it's like women are always

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the ones sort of like keeping things in check and

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making sure the kids are in order and all of that.

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And so to be a woman and struggle with alcohol

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is hard to admit, to be a Christian woman and

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to be a mom. That takes it to a whole

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other level, because moms are shamed just to a totally,

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to a totally more level than dads are for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure there's so much to unpack too. And

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the statistics about the rise in deaths of women attributed

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to alcohol, I mean, does that even count the number

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of It can't probably account for the number of women

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who have gotten increased cancers because of alcohol, Like I'm

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sure there's not even a way to quantify that totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I mean alcohol related does this is why?

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It's not It's not cut and dry. It's not that

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you can say, oh, well, this person drank this and

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so they died for that reason, right, But it's it's

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a whole host of conditions heart disease, cancer, carres, all

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kinds of things that compound. When we look at how

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alcohol is associated with the way our bodies work, it

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is associated with so many different diseases, so many autoimmune diseases,

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and then you know, when you put all of those

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numbers together, they have been able to tell, like, this

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is how it is affecting women specifically, and it does

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affect women's bodies in a different way than it affects

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men's bodies. Obviously, men and women are different, and the

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short term and long term consequences of drinking, but especially heavier.

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Speaker 2: Drinking, is it's very prolific.

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Speaker 3: You can see the difference in how it affects women

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just more in a more powerful way. And so that's

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not necessarily bet or good.

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Speaker 2: It's just is what it is. That's how our bodies

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are made.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's one reason you see a lot

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of women actually paying attention to this more. Not only

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are we getting educated and we're seeing how alcohol negatively

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affects the body, but we are much more in tune

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these days to what's going on with our bodies hormonally,

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what's happening reproductively. There's conversations around this more in a

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holistic fashion.

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Speaker 2: When you think about like the Maha movement and things

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like that.

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Speaker 3: We are sort of catching up to this conversation and

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realizing not only is alcohol bad mentally and spiritually, it

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is so bad for you physically. And so I love

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to see women getting educated about this and seeing so

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many people choosing to stop drinking alcohol, even if they

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didn't see it as like a, oh, I have an

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addiction problem.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to have an addiction problem to stop drinking.

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Speaker 3: You just have to decide this isn't what I want

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for my life anymore, right, And you know that was

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part of it for me.

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Speaker 2: I also was having an addiction problem.

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Speaker 3: But no matter where you sit on the spectrum, there

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is no requirement to get to some point to say

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you want to quit drinking. There's so many reasons that

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people are doing it.

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Speaker 1: There's also so many good alternatives now, it seems, I mean,

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there are go anywhere and there's a million mocktails, or

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go into any grocery store and there's aisles full of

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refrigerated drinks that are not alcoholic that are just more interesting,

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or full of probiotics, probiotics, you know, fancy sodas, all

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of these things. Yeah, and once you pair that with

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the Maha movement, and I mean, how many women and

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how many influencers are Their entire brand is about detoxifying

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your home and detoxifying your life. And you can't really

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detoxify your life if you continue to pour toxins into

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it in the form of wine or whatever. I mean,

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it does no good to get rid of all of

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the other chemicals if you're still just completely changing the

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chemical balance of your body by poisoning it on the regular, So.

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Speaker 2: Right, and I mean I think that's you know, we

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see this.

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Speaker 3: The American Cancer Society came out two years ago or

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so and said that there is no amount of alcohol

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that they can say is say it literally is as

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you say, it literally is a toxin. And you know,

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I don't know why it took us so long to

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get to that point to understand that, but it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Think of all the.

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Speaker 3: Negative consequences that happen to our bodies when we drink it.

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Speaker 2: I think common sense is just sort of catching up

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right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And there's so many people are way more

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aware of it too. As we see fertility rates go down,

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you know, in some ways inexplicably, and other issues like that.

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It's like anything you can do to fix your body

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and fix your life, and this is one of what

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seems to be one of the big culprits of that.

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So so when you said you kind of realized it

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right away, But is there a moment that you can

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point to when you realize I have an alcohol problem.

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This is not just this is not just something I enjoy.

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This is something that has a power over me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's been, you know, there were moments here and

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there over the years. I remember one of the first

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times that I really felt that was after a New

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Year's Eve where I had gone out and really just

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made a complete fool of myself and really kind of

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blacked out. I have a not everyone has blackout drinking,

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but it's kind of a biological thing.

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Speaker 2: Some people have it, don't some people don't.

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Speaker 3: I did have that, and so I had a night

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that night in particular.

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Speaker 2: I did not really remember what happened. I was told later.

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Speaker 3: I was so embarrassed, and I, you know, this is

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I mean, gosh, what year was this like a really

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long time, like fifteen years ago or something, And I

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was like, I have to quit drinking. And so I

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was able to. I quit drinking for thirty days, which

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I was in my twenties. So that was like really

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hard because my whole life was like my friends and

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going out. But after thirty days, I couldn't go any longer.

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I was like, oh, this is like, you know, I'm

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going to go right back to my old habits. And

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so I would have sort of moments like that periodically

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where I would do something that I was really embarrassed by,

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or feel stupid, or feel out of control, and that

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would happen and I would start this cycle over.

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Speaker 2: So I would have those moments, but I.

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Speaker 3: Think, really, what what pushed me over the edge to

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really try to work on this is after becoming a mom.

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You know, it sort of transitioned into a different way

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that it fit into my life. You know, prior to

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getting married and having kids, it was more like a

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you know, I'm kind of doing my own thing, like

242
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going out with friends or even drinking at home, but

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nobody else was depending on me. But once you become

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a parent, obviously, like your whole brain sort of switches around.

245
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And so I had my second child and I was

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onto this sort of wine mom personality. Not that I

247
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was like calling myself that, but I was drinking wine

248
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almost every day, and I would get to the point

249
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where say, okay, I'm just I'm not going to drink tomorrow.

250
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm detoxing tomorrow.

251
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Speaker 3: But then come six o'clock, I would find myself with

252
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that familiar craving, with that like triggering feeling, and then

253
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feeling almost compelled, like I cannot stop this from happening,

254
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almost like when the thought entered my mind, I had

255
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to obey it. And so I would drink and then

256
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wake up in the middle of the night and I

257
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would get panicked with myself, panicked thinking, oh my gosh,

258
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I said I wasn't going to do it. I couldn't

259
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stop it. This is out of control. My kid woke

260
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up and needed to go to the emergency room right now?

261
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Could I drive them there? I had these kind of

262
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thoughts and those were the things that put me there.

263
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And then also just thinking alcoholism rents of my family.

264
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I don't want my kids dealing with this. The very

265
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best thing I can do for my kids is to

266
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stop drinking. And so that wasn't enough to you know,

267
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do it. You know, I needed more than just one reason,

268
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but a combination of factors sort of built up, and

269
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I was able to get to that point where I

270
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got curious.

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Speaker 2: I started googling things. I started being.

272
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Speaker 3: Really investigative about it without quitting, but just with an

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open mind.

274
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Speaker 1: You write about one particular time in the book where

275
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you are putting your daughter to bed. Can you explain

276
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kind of what happened in your mind at that time?

277
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So I was rocking my daughter to sleep.

278
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She was a baby, and I just remember prior to

279
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us going into her room, I had been thinking, like,

280
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you know, ped time is so hard. I had a

281
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toddler as well. Bedtime is so hard.

282
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Speaker 3: It's like I never ever get my nights anymore, and

283
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I just I want to get through this.

284
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Speaker 2: And looking back now, I mean I cringe to think.

285
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Speaker 3: About it, because to rock my baby daughter to sleep,

286
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like now that she's seven, I'm like, oh what I

287
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would give to be able to do that again. But

288
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that night, I was like, I need something to like

289
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help me through this night. And I think at that

290
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particular time, we had something in the fridge.

291
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Speaker 2: And I like took a couple swigs or.

292
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Speaker 3: Something like that, and I was in there and I

293
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was rocking her to sleep, and I had this overwhelming

294
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feeling of like what am I doing? Like I'm basically

295
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buzzed right now rocking my baby to sleep, and why

296
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what kind of person does this? I just you know,

297
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really hurt, you know, really going against myself. And then

298
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when she was asleep and I left her room, I like,

299
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sort of the shame was so overpowering that I just

300
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went and drink more to get rid of that feeling.

301
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And so this is vicious cycle. And I just thought, I,

302
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this is not the person I want to be. But

303
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I feel so stuck in my patterns and stuck in

304
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the physical addiction that I've created by telling myself I

305
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,720
need this to get through things.

306
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Speaker 1: And I think you walk through some of this in

307
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your book, but can you explain what exactly happens like

308
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,039
with our brain wiring or the incentive structure or whatever where,

309
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Like why isn't that resolve enough? You know? Why can

310
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you feel horrible and decide this is not how I

311
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,039
want to live my life and then twenty four hours

312
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,600
later be you know, compelled to do this thing that

313
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,879
just has seemingly complete control over you, Like how does

314
00:14:34,919 --> 00:14:37,480
that work in the brain? And why, you know, why

315
00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:40,200
isn't willpower enough to get right through these things.

316
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Speaker 3: Well, this is really key for me and understanding and

317
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,759
being able to overcome, because for so many years I

318
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,919
just kept telling myself you are weak, you are not

319
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,639
trusting God enough, Like this is a matter of discipline,

320
00:14:51,679 --> 00:14:54,000
this is a matter matter of willpower, like if you

321
00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,279
were just stronger, you could do this, And.

322
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Speaker 1: That was a shame as a motivator more right.

323
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Speaker 3: Pretty much which pretty much doesn't work. And so as

324
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I'm begin to educate.

325
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 2: Myself just about alcohol and just like.

326
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Speaker 3: The basics one oh one, I learned that you know,

327
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when you start giving your body an addictive substance, you

328
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teach your body that it needs that substance to get

329
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through whatever moment it is you're getting through. And so

330
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every night when I would have that feeling, I had

331
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,399
basically taught my body, hey, you're going to die if

332
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you don't have this. And that sounds extreme, but that's

333
00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:29,279
that's the kind of like sort of panic and overwhelm.

334
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Speaker 2: Your body begins to associate with it, and.

335
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 3: That feeling is so overwhelming, and so you don't realize

336
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,440
you've created that. You blame yourself, but really it's a

337
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,799
physical reaction.

338
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Speaker 2: That you can deprogram. You can deprogram it. But it

339
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,879
feels impossible when you're in the middle of sort of

340
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:51,120
the addiction, so to speak. And that doesn't mean necessarily

341
00:15:51,159 --> 00:15:52,960
that I was like if I quit drinking and I'm

342
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,120
going to have to be hospitalized or something. I wasn't

343
00:15:55,159 --> 00:15:58,360
to that point all the people are. It was more,

344
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I guess, a of a sort of mental physical collab there.

345
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 3: But it was, yeah, like once I realized like, oh, actually,

346
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,840
this is a physical thing that I can change that

347
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,559
isn't going to be like this forever. I've taught my

348
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,240
body this, I can unteach my body this. That was

349
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,720
very empowering because I was able to stop blaming myself

350
00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:21,600
because I finally realized that it's so much bigger than

351
00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:23,399
just me and my willpower.

352
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:24,799
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

353
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Speaker 1: Well, and you know when you talk about this feeling

354
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of I'm going to die if I don't have this,

355
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or I'm not going to be able to get through

356
00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:31,600
this thing that I'm doing if I don't have this,

357
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:35,200
you know, liquid help. You wrote in the book about

358
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,679
more or less like coming up with errands or like

359
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,200
kind of revolving other activities in your life around being

360
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,679
able to get this alcohol. Even if you had previously resolved,

361
00:16:46,679 --> 00:16:47,720
like I'm not going to have it in the house

362
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,480
because it'll be easier not to drink it if I

363
00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:51,759
if I don't have it and then kind of going

364
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:53,240
out of your way to get it in other ways

365
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,960
that were more secretive or whatever. Can you talk a

366
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:55,960
little bit about that too.

367
00:16:56,799 --> 00:16:59,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would, you know, as if you have

368
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,960
a drinking issue at all, you know that you make

369
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,519
a lot of rules and there's a lot of ways

370
00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:05,480
that you moderate to try to pretend that you don't

371
00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:07,519
have a problem or try to make sure you don't

372
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,519
go too far with it. And one of my rules

373
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,279
was that I didn't just sort of keep alcohol in

374
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:14,240
the house all the time because I just knew I

375
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:16,400
wasn't gonna be able to resist it. My other rule

376
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,759
was that I wasn't allowed to buy liquor, because liquor

377
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:21,720
can if you drink liquor, I mean obviously that could

378
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:24,200
very very quickly put you, like spin you out into

379
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,200
a really bad place. But because I didn't keep it

380
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,680
in the house, I always had to go get it,

381
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,720
like by the day. And so that might mean I'm

382
00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:34,440
telling my husband, oh, I have to go pick up

383
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,799
something from Target, or I you know, if I'm at

384
00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:39,640
the store, I'm like not walking by the wine aisle,

385
00:17:39,759 --> 00:17:43,279
I'm definitely grabbing something. A lot of times what I

386
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:47,039
would grab is the little mini packs of wine because

387
00:17:47,079 --> 00:17:48,880
I could easily sort of hide them in my purse

388
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,400
or I could put them in my bathroom. And it

389
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:54,000
sounds so crazy that you would hide something like that.

390
00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:56,400
And my husband wasn't like giving me a hard time

391
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,680
about drinking. I just like didn't want him to know

392
00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:01,119
that I was drinking, and I wanted it.

393
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,079
Speaker 2: It was like my little thing, like my little you know,

394
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,000
pot of shame.

395
00:18:05,799 --> 00:18:08,319
Speaker 3: And so I did have that situation sign himes where

396
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,519
like I was hiding it in the bathroom and or

397
00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:12,599
I was hiding it in my car or something like that,

398
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,359
and that obviously that told me, hey, this is like

399
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,440
a bigger issue, like normal people don't do this right.

400
00:18:20,519 --> 00:18:22,839
Speaker 2: And as those kinds of moments began.

401
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,759
Speaker 3: To increase, I just felt like I was spiraling, and which,

402
00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:29,640
you know, which was my motivation to step forward to

403
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,039
try to get some help if I could.

404
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 1: So what was different about the time, you know, all

405
00:18:35,519 --> 00:18:37,519
the times you kind of tried to will power your

406
00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:40,880
way through it, what was different about that versus when

407
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,359
you actually did get sober.

408
00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for you know, there's a couple of

409
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:50,240
different things. Number One, I will say.

410
00:18:50,079 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 3: For many years before I got to that point, I

411
00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:56,519
was praying about this. I was talking with God about it,

412
00:18:56,599 --> 00:18:59,160
reading scripture about it, like writing down prayers about it.

413
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,359
Even though I didn't and even though I did not

414
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:07,400
turn the corner, I think that faithfulness and continued sort

415
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,559
of turning to God to say like, hey, I want

416
00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:11,880
to find freedom from this, Please help me. I think

417
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,839
that eventually really helped me. I think staying consistent in

418
00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:19,319
my dependence on Him to one day find freedom, I

419
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,160
think that was kind of compounded and I eventually got

420
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,160
to that point. The other thing was some of it's

421
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,279
very practical. I heard someone once say, if you just

422
00:19:28,319 --> 00:19:30,440
do thirty days, it's kind of like white knuckling it.

423
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,640
Anybody can do it, and then you're just like dying

424
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,960
to get to the other side of that, and you

425
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:34,559
drink again.

426
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 2: They said you have to get.

427
00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:38,759
Speaker 3: To ninety days to really feel what any kind of

428
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:41,680
freedom feels like. And so I was like, okay, like

429
00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:44,000
ninety days, I'm just going to keep my eye on

430
00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:46,200
ninety days. And I was able to do that, and

431
00:19:46,319 --> 00:19:49,160
long story short, I did get sober for six months

432
00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:52,279
and I was feeling really good. I even like sort

433
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:54,440
of spoke in front of my small church about it,

434
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,200
and then COVID hit and I sort of fell backwards

435
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,200
and went back to drinking. And at first it was fine,

436
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:02,680
you know, at first you're like, oh, this is fine.

437
00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: I got this.

438
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: But then, like you know, by the time the summer

439
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,079
was over, I was back to all my old habits,

440
00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:08,799
feeling out of control again. I said, I got to

441
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,079
I've got to take a thirty day detox, like that

442
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,359
was all I could do. I felt completely out of control,

443
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,839
and I was just like, okay, thirty days like sober September,

444
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,799
you know. And the difference that time around was that

445
00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:23,359
I joined a community, which sounds I mean, you know,

446
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,279
you hear the same advice over and over again. It's

447
00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:28,279
like community is everything. Well it really is everything, And

448
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,480
so I joined a community. It was a secular community,

449
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,279
but it was the first time i'd ever like been

450
00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:35,960
in a group really with a lot of people. And

451
00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,480
I saw people that looked like me, I saw people

452
00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:40,839
that didn't look like me at all, and the stories

453
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,440
were all over the map. But people were coming into

454
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,000
that and this is on zoom, but there were like

455
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:47,039
hundreds of people on the meeting. People were coming to

456
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,319
the meeting, they like spilling their hearts out, sharing some

457
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,119
of like you hear the most wise, most beautiful comments

458
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,079
you'll ever hear on a recovery meeting, but it's not

459
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,720
recorded and nobody, you know, you don't write it down,

460
00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:02,079
and so it felt like a sacred space and almost

461
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,160
like I was like, wow, like this is just a

462
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,160
whole different like level of life for me. And so

463
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,720
I stuck to those meanings and I was going all

464
00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:12,440
the time. And at the same time, of course, like

465
00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:15,720
I'm continuing in my prayer life, I'm leaning on God,

466
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,759
I'm you know, combining all of these different elements of

467
00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,480
support to get me. I don't know, across the finish

468
00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:25,519
line is not the right word. But I got to

469
00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:28,240
thirty days, and because I was in that group, I

470
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,960
felt really strong and I kept going and I kept going,

471
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,200
and so then ultimately I like had my eye on

472
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,160
a year, and of course I was like, well, what

473
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,119
happens after a year?

474
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,599
Speaker 2: Like that's like I don't know, you know, but.

475
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 3: You know, you just keep going. And so now of

476
00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,680
course five years sober. It's such a relief to say

477
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:48,359
I don't ever, I hardly ever think about alcohol. And

478
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,119
it used to be something that was constantly running in

479
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,079
the back of my mind.

480
00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:58,759
Speaker 2: Very oppressive, very It took up so much space in

481
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:00,240
my life and my mind.

482
00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 3: And now I'm so much freer to work on other things,

483
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,640
to pursue other goals. I mean, I feel like I

484
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,119
just cleared out so much crap when I got rid

485
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,039
of that, after so many years of having it just

486
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,839
play over and over and over again and keep me

487
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,519
down well.

488
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,640
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably such a good parallel to

489
00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:21,559
so many other things that we struggle with other you know,

490
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,319
however you want to classify alcohol addiction, but like other

491
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,880
sins that have a hold on us or other you know,

492
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,279
compulsions that do and it can be anything, I mean,

493
00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:32,599
whether it's like a pornography habit, or gambling or even

494
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,359
just gossiping or like anger, things like that. You know,

495
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,599
when you recognize this in your heart and in your life,

496
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,519
it's it's great to spend time in the Word and

497
00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:43,279
to spend time with the Lord and journal about it

498
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:45,079
and confess it and pray and like those are all

499
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,160
good and necessary things, But it can be really hard

500
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,799
to find freedom until you surround yourself with the community

501
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:56,359
where you are identifying yourself as struggling with this thing

502
00:22:56,519 --> 00:22:59,559
and either realizing that you're not alone, because then you're

503
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:01,799
not stuck in this just shame corner where you're unwilling

504
00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:06,160
to confess this problem, but also finding accountability and community

505
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,039
and all of those things. And you know, what a

506
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:11,480
lie from the enemy to just keep us stuck in

507
00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:14,960
shame and unwilling to surround ourselves with people who struggle

508
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,799
with the same issues. I mean, it's just he can

509
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,039
keep us there so long, and and just the freedom

510
00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:21,920
that we can find when we finally step out and

511
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,079
say no, I'm gonna I'm going to find other people

512
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,000
who struggle with this, or maybe they don't, but I

513
00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:29,279
just need accountability and community to surround me when I

514
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,559
while I kind of uproot this thing that's got a

515
00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:32,039
hold on me.

516
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you also, don't you know, you get so

517
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:37,720
much wisdom from other people who have been there, who

518
00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:39,920
are in the middle of it. You know, you begin

519
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,599
to realize, you know, I think part of it also

520
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:45,680
is beginning to realize that failure or whatever you would

521
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,319
term failure. It doesn't have to be what you might

522
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,200
have previously thought it was. When you're kind of walking

523
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,920
the road alone, like you don't have the perspective of

524
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,680
other people coming to me, Like actually, like, let's think

525
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,359
about the fact that you drank this day, but you

526
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,079
also didn't drink twenty nine other days of the month,

527
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,599
and that is way more important, you know. That was

528
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,039
another one I was encouraged by people in the group, say,

529
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,759
you know what if you drink one day, Like, let's

530
00:24:13,799 --> 00:24:15,240
look at these are data points.

531
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,839
Speaker 2: We're being curious.

532
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 3: We're just going to look at this and say, oh,

533
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,599
what happened, Like let's be let's instead of shaming ourselves,

534
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,599
get curious about why we're doing things so that next

535
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:27,279
time we can be aware of that. It's really more

536
00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:29,160
about asking a lot of questions. You got to have

537
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,920
a lot of grace for yourself, and that's a good

538
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,359
thing in this situation. You just have to because if

539
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,960
you walk into these things shaming yourself full of self

540
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,039
criticism like that is that is going to keep you

541
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,960
stuck instead of letting you feel free and able to

542
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:46,640
make a decision based on new information, based on the

543
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,880
kind of life you actually want to have. You can't

544
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,359
make healthy choices when you're making them from a position

545
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,079
of shame.

546
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: Right right, And as Christians, making choices from a position

547
00:24:57,039 --> 00:24:59,920
of shame is not not the status of the believer,

548
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,640
Like that is not a gospel informed way of living

549
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,119
or thinking. You know, we have been freed from these things.

550
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,319
We are no longer slaves to sin. You know, we

551
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,640
do have power through Christ and so you know, not

552
00:25:09,759 --> 00:25:11,960
that we can just like pray our struggles away, but

553
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:16,200
we also have a supernatural power and and forgiveness and grace.

554
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,200
And it's like, if the Lord is giving us those things,

555
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,880
then we also need to accept those things and live

556
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,759
as if they're true and not just be resorting to shame.

557
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

558
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,599
Speaker 3: One of the most powerful things and realizations to me

559
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,480
was recognizing that that even if I continued drinking, if

560
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,839
I never really got over this thing here on earth

561
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,279
like that, I wasn't going to lose my salvation. I

562
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,759
wasn't going to be loved by God any less. Now

563
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,160
when we walk in you know the will that God

564
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,240
has for us, like life is going to be more peaceful,

565
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,599
life is going to be better. But if even if

566
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,960
I weren't ever to get to that point, like I

567
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,480
didn't have to worry about losing love or salvation. And

568
00:25:55,519 --> 00:25:58,599
that seems to me almost like, well, yeah, Erica, you

569
00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:01,480
should know that as a Christian, but sometimes you don't

570
00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:04,240
realize like the hold that some of those lies have

571
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,519
on your mind. But once I realized that, and I

572
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:09,000
was like, and it was just sort of like, oh, like,

573
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,680
you can be sober. You don't have to be sober,

574
00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:14,039
but you know what I mean, It was just like

575
00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,799
a mindset shift of have to versus choosing to.

576
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,599
Speaker 2: And that's really the whole reason I named the book Freely.

577
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:23,599
Speaker 3: Sober was that you can choose that, and you can

578
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,359
do that without feeling compelled, without feeling like it's a

579
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,799
requirement as a Christian or as you know, the person

580
00:26:31,839 --> 00:26:35,119
that you want to be, and weirdly enough, that frees

581
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,880
you up to be able to make better choices.

582
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I really love the title

583
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,599
of the book. And that's a really beautiful, beautiful image.

584
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:50,519
Speaker 4: So could this latest jobs report be an election decider?

585
00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:53,440
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586
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587
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588
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589
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,880
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590
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,519
companies that are less than five years old. Whether it's

591
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:10,759
happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting

592
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593
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,279
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594
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:17,279
you get your podcasts.

595
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:25,839
Speaker 1: Changing gears a little bit. I'm curious what was it like,

596
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,559
you know, going to a meeting or maybe even like

597
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,759
admitting this to some fellow women in your church or whatever.

598
00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:37,519
That's a really tough step. I'm curious what it was

599
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,400
like admitting this to your husband.

600
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

601
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's interesting with my husband because he actually

602
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,759
grew up with in a very alcoholic household to like,

603
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,359
you know, the kind of like the stereotypical type of

604
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,359
thing where he was really a lot very neglected as

605
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,160
a child. His mom had severe alcohol and drug problems.

606
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,119
So when I would come to him and say I

607
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,920
feel like I have this streak issue, he'd be like,

608
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:03,799
you're fine. You know, for him, it didn't look like

609
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,680
what he was what he had dealt with in his life.

610
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,559
Speaker 2: It was definitely a different level.

611
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:12,319
Speaker 3: And so for him, he's supportive of me quitting drinking

612
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,920
or not, but he wasn't telling me, oh, you've got

613
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,680
to quit drinking. But also when I drank, he would drink,

614
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,039
and there were lots of fights when that would happen.

615
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,680
He does not have a good relationship with alcohol either,

616
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:24,920
And so I.

617
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,039
Speaker 2: Knew, if nothing else, that.

618
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 3: Me quitting was going to be really good for our

619
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,799
family and our household because of the way that we

620
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,720
interacted when both of us were drinking.

621
00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: So that's something.

622
00:28:36,039 --> 00:28:39,839
Speaker 3: But initially, a really huge first step for me was

623
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,119
sharing with my like my Bible study small group, like, hey,

624
00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:45,920
I'm struggling with this, and it was really hard. I

625
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,400
remember I was so uncomfortable. I was like sitting on

626
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,839
the couch and I was like, well, I was looking down.

627
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:52,960
I felt stupid.

628
00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:53,759
Speaker 2: I don't know why.

629
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,079
Speaker 3: I don't know why I felt so timid to share,

630
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,119
Like as someone that's been in small groups, you know,

631
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,440
my entire adult life and prayed many times with lots

632
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,799
of people, have been on mission trips for whatever reason,

633
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,920
like sharing this was so hard and it felt like

634
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,599
I was coming from such a dark place.

635
00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: But once I.

636
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,359
Speaker 3: Put it out there that honestly was the beginning of healing.

637
00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:16,440
I mean, this was probably a year before I actually

638
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,319
was able to have any sort of extended period of sobriety.

639
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,839
But it really was like bringing it out of the

640
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,799
darkness and putting it into the light. And you know,

641
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,359
we all know that Shane dies in the light, you know,

642
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:30,119
and it's it cannot.

643
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:33,119
Speaker 2: Grow when there there is light around it.

644
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: And so when I took that stuff to put it

645
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,319
out there into the light, that it only got easier

646
00:29:39,359 --> 00:29:43,039
from there to continue telling people. And as I walked

647
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:46,400
into my sobriety journey, and like I was very kind

648
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,400
of like testing it out online and when I was

649
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,480
sharing a pretty open person online, like I've always had

650
00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:53,960
a blog, I've always put myself out there, but I

651
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,039
would sort of say little things about like, yeah, I

652
00:29:57,119 --> 00:29:59,200
kind of feel like, you know, it's you know, it's

653
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,279
kind of gone over and culture. I would just make

654
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:03,640
little comments to sort of see like what are people saying,

655
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,079
how are people responding? Until I got to the point

656
00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:07,799
where I started being a lot more vocal about it,

657
00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:11,000
and I was like I'm quitting drinking and I'm getting sober,

658
00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:14,000
and that helped me identify as someone who didn't drink,

659
00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:18,279
like I use that as a power thing in my journey.

660
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,160
Not everyone's going to do this. There are people that

661
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,720
are ten years sober that still don't want to talk

662
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:22,039
about it.

663
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: I just felt called. I felt like, hey, I'm going

664
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:25,400
to go first.

665
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:28,799
Speaker 3: If more people were honest about this, if more people

666
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,119
were open about this, then less people would hide it

667
00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:33,039
and think that it was something they needed to be

668
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:33,599
ashamed of.

669
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you noticed in your personal life or maybe

670
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,039
even in your online you know, correspondence with people as well,

671
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:46,039
But have you noticed other people who have come forward

672
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:47,720
because of your story who are like, you know, I

673
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,680
didn't know I had a problem, but then I read

674
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,920
about your story and I realized, I do you know?

675
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,680
Has there been any of that kind of response.

676
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it's not necessarily people who are like

677
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,720
I didn't know I had a problems. It's mostly people

678
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,119
that are like I really haven't met anyone that's like me.

679
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,519
You know this that sort of fits this, especially the

680
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,880
faith part. Like I've heard from like pastors' wives and

681
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,079
like people that are like Sunday school teachers and just

682
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:13,640
like Christian homeschool moms, like I hear from a lot

683
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,200
of people like like that, the people that you would

684
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,559
never look at and think that they had a problem,

685
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:20,720
that are sort of hiding their problem like I was.

686
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,759
Those are the kind of people that I hear from

687
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:25,519
the most, that just say thank you. I really resonate

688
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:27,400
with this. I really want to overcome this.

689
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: Like I've also had people message me. Many people have

690
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:32,720
messaged me.

691
00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: They'll say, Hey, I just want to let you know,

692
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,000
like I just celebrated a year of sobriety and you

693
00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:39,599
were really influential in like getting me there.

694
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,079
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what, I didn't even know.

695
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,759
Speaker 3: I had no idea, and yet they're telling me like

696
00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:47,720
the stuff that I was posting was very motivating and

697
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:50,680
inspiring to them. And I'm sure there's plenty of people

698
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,880
that I just never say anything, but because of that,

699
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,039
it's just like, okay, like this is what I'm supposed

700
00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,799
to be doing. And also, you know, I'm sure there

701
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:03,240
are people out there that are going, oh, like, maybe

702
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,279
I do have a problem. That's the other thing, Like

703
00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:08,319
there are people that I say that people and I

704
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:12,440
did this to myself. Gaslight themselves. People gaslight themselves into

705
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,880
thinking they don't have a problem. They'll be like, well,

706
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,039
I don't, surely I don't. I mean that's normal, right, Like,

707
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,119
I mean it's fine. Everybody does this. I did that

708
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,319
over and over and over again. But it's like, if

709
00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:25,440
you're doing that, if you think it's a problem for you,

710
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:28,319
if in any way it feels like a problem, it

711
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,119
is a problem.

712
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: If it wasn't a problem, you wouldn't be thinking about it.

713
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: Right, right, Like what kinds of things do people rationalize?

714
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: They?

715
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,039
Speaker 3: I mean rationalize just like oh, it's five o'clock, Like

716
00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:42,640
everybody drinks after work and like to relax, or oh,

717
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,240
like it's been such a long day, Like I cannot

718
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:47,640
deal with the witching hour with these kids. You know,

719
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,640
I just need something to help me get through it.

720
00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:53,559
Or it's the weekend or it's a holiday or whatever

721
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:55,519
it is. Like I remember something I used to do.

722
00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:58,200
A friend of mine said, Oh, yeah, my workout instructor.

723
00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,759
She like drinks like two bottles of wine a night,

724
00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:01,960
and like in such good shape and she just loves drinking.

725
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,000
And I was like, well, I mean this girl like

726
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:05,680
is drinking two bottles of wine and night and she's

727
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,279
teaching fitness classes.

728
00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:08,799
Speaker 2: So like it's totally fine if.

729
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 3: I'm drinking, you know, a half a bottle to a

730
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,240
whole bottle of night because she you know, and if

731
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:14,720
I can get up and I can work out in

732
00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:17,400
the morning, and I can you know, get get through

733
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,960
my day, go to work and do all the things

734
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,240
I'm supposed to do, well, I can't have a problem,

735
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:22,880
right because I'm not staying at home all day and

736
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,000
like being worthless.

737
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: So anything you can come up with to justify it, and.

738
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: The world will happily go along with that, because other

739
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,880
people don't want to give up drinking either, and so

740
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,680
they don't want to tell you to give up drinking

741
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:36,680
because that would mean they have to question themselves.

742
00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm curious in your research. So we've talked a little

743
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:42,680
bit about like the gender nature of these things, you know,

744
00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:44,680
partly because of the marketing to women, and how that's

745
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,799
really changed women's alcohol consumption habits. But what have you

746
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,960
learned in your research about just the nature of addiction

747
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:54,920
between men and women, or how how problems with alcohol

748
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,640
might manifest differently in men and women.

749
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: Well, one of the most interesting things I found, which

750
00:34:01,599 --> 00:34:06,119
is that women in high power positions like surgeon or

751
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,320
a lawyer, those kind of jobs like you will see.

752
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,159
The numbers show that women have higher rates of addiction

753
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,920
than men, and so I don't know exactly what that means,

754
00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:20,159
but I do think that like maybe women internalize some

755
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,880
of their stress more. They're sort of trying to hold

756
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,239
it together in a way that men are not a

757
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,159
lot of times women. I mean, I'm not I am

758
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,880
definitely not one to be hating on men at all,

759
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,559
but I do think that women, especially those who are

760
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,840
moms working in high power position, they are balancing more

761
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,679
sometimes than men are, just like more mentally, and so

762
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,480
I think that that could be part of it.

763
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: I also think just the way our bodies imbibe.

764
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 3: This stuff, like the way that we react, the way

765
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,840
it creates more of that physical addiction side of it,

766
00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:00,320
what we're using to cope. We have different outlets, and

767
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,199
so that's I just think a vulnerability of women to

768
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:08,960
sort of go to that when everything sort of feels

769
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,119
out of control and they want to put on you know,

770
00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:14,880
making it look like everything's okay when it's not.

771
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: That would also make sense with the percentage rise. When

772
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,840
did you say, can you give the statistic again about

773
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:23,679
how much.

774
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: Our consumption?

775
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how over what time frame?

776
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's see, it's twenty twenty five, so it was

777
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,400
actually probably more than twenty years ago when the alcohol

778
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,519
marketing really stepped up its game. It's like it started

779
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:42,280
with you know, wine coolers and things like that, but

780
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,920
then they you know, you started seeing all these different

781
00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:50,239
like marshmallow flavored vodka and you know, the skinny margarita

782
00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,239
as soon as the marketing industry, so oh my gosh,

783
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,079
women are they want they want to pay for this

784
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,440
just as much as men like or not, if not more.

785
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 2: I mean, it just kind of explo loaded.

786
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,639
Speaker 3: And then you saw advertising like you know, all about

787
00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,159
how alcohol is like empowering, where it's you know, you

788
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:08,079
can be just like the guys or you deserve it,

789
00:36:08,119 --> 00:36:10,119
and all of this stuff just sort of exploded, and

790
00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:14,320
you watch alcoholism and struggles with alcohol and alcohol related

791
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,239
death explode at the same sort of same rate if

792
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,519
you looked at a chart. Now you can't blame necessarily

793
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,440
alcohol marketing for everything, like we have to take some

794
00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:27,280
responsibility for our actions. But I do think it was

795
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,519
happening sort of low key. People weren't realizing the shift,

796
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,960
and now we do realize that, and now we can

797
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,320
take responsibility.

798
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: One of the things.

799
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: I know, one particular drink that people have struggled with

800
00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:44,840
a lot is like the White Claw or the Truly's Like,

801
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,840
I hear about that all the time, and I was

802
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,960
certainly that was for me too, because you're like, oh,

803
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,760
this has like no calories and whatever. Right, But those

804
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,760
kinds of drinks, you know, with this focus on like

805
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:00,000
the localorie and the sweetness and all of that, but yeah,

806
00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,119
still strong, those really have hooked people in a bad way.

807
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,559
Speaker 1: Yes, and not that you know, wine mom culture isn't real,

808
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,639
because of course that's a huge problem, but I think

809
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,840
probably a lot of it too. It's not just that

810
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,840
these people are moms. It's that they're moms who are

811
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,760
also doing a lot of other things. You know, very

812
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,679
much the feminist lean in culture where you're not talking

813
00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:21,840
about women who you know, are just not I don't

814
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,599
mean just I don't mean to belittle this at all.

815
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:26,760
I mean, but they're not stay at home moms, like

816
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,880
that is not their sole responsibility. They're stay at home

817
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,199
moms who are also freelancing, or they're also working a

818
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:33,159
full time job and taking care of the kids or

819
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,199
all these other things and it's like, you know, how

820
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,280
do you manage all of these things that women were

821
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,599
never supposed to manage? And so that's just another way

822
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:44,960
to justify, you know, having something to cope to cope

823
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:45,440
with these things.

824
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: And it's so true and you hear you know.

825
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: I think it's probably less common now people are becoming

826
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,480
a lot more sort of aware that like, hey, telling

827
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:55,679
someone to have a glass of wine maybe isn't like

828
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,079
sort of PC anymore. But it's interesting to look back

829
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:01,519
at history and see, like in the I mean, I

830
00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:03,880
think there was like sort of two periods of history

831
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,679
when this was most popular, but definitely like back in

832
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,239
like I want to say forties fifties, like women were

833
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,800
often given these like like prescription I don't know if

834
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,960
it was prescription, but like these drugs to sort of

835
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,960
helped them chill out loud in them I think is

836
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,000
what it was called. It was like, oh, they're nervous,

837
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:23,719
like they need to have this, and so they would

838
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,880
take this medicine that sort of help had them like

839
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,039
zombiing around And that was partially that was a lot

840
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:33,239
of women that actually were bored and didn't have a

841
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,079
lot of purpose in their lives and I think now

842
00:38:36,119 --> 00:38:37,760
we're sort of at the other extreme. I think you

843
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,800
make a great point that many of the people that

844
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,039
struggle in the same position as me are women that

845
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:45,920
are trying to do so many things, and so it's

846
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,639
like we need to find the balance, like we are

847
00:38:48,679 --> 00:38:50,960
trying to do too much, but you know.

848
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: But we also need to have a purpose.

849
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,599
Speaker 3: And so where is finding that healthy balance and how

850
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,599
how do we create that in families and create that

851
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:02,519
in society. And part of that's like personal choices and

852
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:05,440
intentionality and just even understanding and being aware of this,

853
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:07,480
and part of it's just.

854
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: You know, just yeah, just being aware.

855
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,159
Speaker 1: You talk in the book a little bit about there

856
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,320
being a grief associated with giving up alcohol or a loss.

857
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,119
Can you explain what you mean by that and why

858
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:23,519
maybe that could be an inhibitor to people taking the

859
00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:24,400
step to give it up.

860
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:25,599
Speaker 2: Yeah.

861
00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:29,159
Speaker 3: I mean I think people, you know, you, as a

862
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,519
drinker or somebody that's drinking, you might think like, well,

863
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:34,800
not everything was bad. It's not like every time I

864
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,280
drink it was like a total catastrophe. Like you think

865
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,079
of all the fun times that you had, like maybe vacations,

866
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:42,480
you went on, weddings, you went to concerts you attended,

867
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,079
Like there's a lot of really good memories and so

868
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:48,880
many good things in your life cross over you and

869
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,840
we have sort of integrated alcohol into all the celebratory

870
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,119
and good things that we do, and so it's like, well,

871
00:39:56,119 --> 00:39:58,480
how can I how can I ever let go of

872
00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:00,960
those things, like I'll never have fun again? But the

873
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,000
reality is that we are, like we never separated the two,

874
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:09,000
and so we think that the alcohol was the thing

875
00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:12,039
that made it so great, and it wasn't necessarily true.

876
00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:13,639
Speaker 2: But to speak to.

877
00:40:13,599 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: The grief side of it, like it's okay to grieve

878
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,000
the fact that you're losing something that sometimes was a

879
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,920
comfort and sometimes that you you know, something that was

880
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,920
a friend to you at times, something that you felt

881
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:29,719
enhanced your life at times, Like it's okay to be

882
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,719
like I'm going to miss that, or like that's too bad,

883
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,039
but also recognize that this is it's not the same

884
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:38,639
as it used to be. You're a different stage in life.

885
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:42,079
You can make different choices. And it's interesting because one

886
00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:44,360
of the things for me and I think a lot

887
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,320
of other people is when drinking, you're often trying to

888
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,519
recreate like the feelings of these other situations and you

889
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:53,599
really can't do that.

890
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:55,039
Speaker 2: You can't be like, this.

891
00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:56,599
Speaker 3: Was like the best night of my life and it

892
00:40:56,639 --> 00:40:57,719
was so much fun, and I want to.

893
00:40:57,639 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: Feel like that again.

894
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,679
Speaker 3: Like you can't make that happen again by like drinking

895
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,199
and hoping to get there. And there's a lot of

896
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,119
disappointment and like sadness when you try to do that,

897
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,880
And so also just recognizing that those times have been

898
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,119
and they're not going to be again, and you're going

899
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:16,440
to make new memories and you're going to have new

900
00:41:16,519 --> 00:41:17,440
joys in your life.

901
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: But you know, just allowing yourself be like, I'm sad

902
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,280
that this is this.

903
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:23,599
Speaker 3: Is something I have to let go if I'm sad,

904
00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:25,719
I'm not a normy drinker and this is something that

905
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,960
I even think about or that I have emotions about.

906
00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: And just allowing yourself to feel what you feel.

907
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,519
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like basic psychology, like we have

908
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:36,599
to allow ourselves to feel our feelings, to process them,

909
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:38,760
to be honest about them, to get mad about them,

910
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,840
but then to be rational about it and recognize, Okay,

911
00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:45,360
we can make a different decision and we can do

912
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,800
what we know is best moving forward.

913
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you talk in the book about kind of

914
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,039
a balance between spiritual help and spiritual disciplines and then

915
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:57,760
more for lack of a better word, like secular or

916
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,360
traditional treatments that people sue. How has your thinking evolved

917
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,719
on that and what do you what do you think

918
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,360
about using these two things together?

919
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many great

920
00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:11,519
secular tools out there the way people think about it,

921
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,960
going to AA, going to support groups, you know, maybe

922
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,079
like using sober apps, talking things through just all of

923
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,000
the you know, normal things that you would think of

924
00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:29,079
in terms of addiction recovery. But I think you're going

925
00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:30,920
at the end of the day, if you are a believer,

926
00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:32,639
at the end of the day, you're going to feel

927
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:35,039
like those things are lacking if you're not bringing in.

928
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: Faith based practices as well, if.

929
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,079
Speaker 3: You're trying to wing this or you're trying to walk

930
00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:45,360
through this without also relying on scriptures, without also going

931
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,480
back to God in prayer, without also recognizing the promises

932
00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:52,159
of God in your life every single day, and talking

933
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:57,119
with mentors or friends who are also believers that can

934
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,280
encourage you, like we you know, you can get over

935
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,400
without that, for sure, but as a Christian, you're going

936
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,840
to feel like something is lacking, And I would even

937
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,719
argue you may feel something as lacking if you're not

938
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:14,599
a Christian, because ultimately the reason that we drink and

939
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,079
we're always looking for a feeling, and I think that

940
00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:19,639
feeling is always that we're looking for God. We're looking

941
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:22,719
for this feeling, this like almost like heaven on Earth

942
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,960
that doesn't exist. And I think part of getting sober

943
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,880
for me has been accepting that, like it's never going

944
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,639
to feel perfect tier on Earth, and like we're always

945
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,960
going to have our struggles, but we were we are

946
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:39,679
visitors on this planet, and we were not made for

947
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,800
this world, and nothing is going to feel one hundred

948
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,760
percent perfect until we get to heaven. But in the meantime,

949
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,000
the best we can do, the closest we can get,

950
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,000
is being in the presence of God and in the

951
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,840
presence of community with fellow believers in the church, and

952
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,639
just using all those tools He's given us are going

953
00:43:58,679 --> 00:43:59,920
to get us that much closer.

954
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,119
Speaker 2: And so I think you got to use it all, and.

955
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:05,119
Speaker 3: You're going to get it's going to feel better the

956
00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:07,119
more tools that you implement, and you know it's going

957
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:09,559
to maybe depend on your personality what works best for you.

958
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: But I think both of those things are super important.

959
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, A men to all of that, I feel

960
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:17,000
like we should just wrap it right there. It's such

961
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,079
good stuff on that note, what can churches do to

962
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:23,840
help men and women who are struggling with this?

963
00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

964
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 3: So I feel like I need to do some kind

965
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,880
of a bigger campaign about this because I keep saying it,

966
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,239
but I haven't exactly gotten to the point where I

967
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,199
know how to get this across to everyone. But I

968
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,360
just want more opportunities. I want it to be acknowledged,

969
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,480
you know. I want it to be like a known

970
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:44,760
thing in the church, Like, hey, let's look.

971
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: At the stats.

972
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,599
Speaker 3: If five out of one hundred women struggle with alcohol,

973
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:52,400
or however many men as well, you can bet that

974
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,679
that probably translates into the pews as well. So you

975
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,880
can know if you have a church's two hundred people,

976
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,840
that you have, say, ten people that may struggle with alcohol,

977
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,480
ten women that may struggle with alcohol. And because you

978
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:06,159
know that, how can you be speaking to that. Not

979
00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:09,440
that you're necessarily directly calling it out, but you are

980
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:13,360
maybe incorporating that into commentary in this sermon. Maybe you're

981
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:16,880
offering an opportunity, like hey, if you're struggling with this,

982
00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:19,119
like you know, we have someone that can talk with

983
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:22,039
you about this, giving people an opportunity because they're not

984
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,159
going to just come to you and talk about it.

985
00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:26,519
Like nobody's going to be like maybe I'll just go

986
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:28,440
tell my pastor that I have a drinking problem.

987
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:29,679
Speaker 2: When I spoke in.

988
00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:32,599
Speaker 3: Front of my church, there was one woman who I

989
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:34,559
didn't even know her, but she sent me a message.

990
00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:35,960
She was like, hey, can I talk to you about

991
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,920
what you talked about on Sunday? And we had coffee

992
00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:41,119
and you know, that was five six years ago and

993
00:45:41,159 --> 00:45:44,119
we're still you know, we're still friends. But she would

994
00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:46,480
have never ever told me or anyone else had I

995
00:45:46,559 --> 00:45:48,800
not gone up there and gone first. Right, So I

996
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,800
think I just want churches to acknowledge it, and not

997
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,639
just this. I mean there are other things that they

998
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:56,920
should also be acknowledging, but giving people an opportunity. Hey,

999
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,480
it's not weird to struggle with this, Like we do

1000
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,800
not judge you. We want to support you if that's happening,

1001
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,880
like hey, we're going to have a session after church,

1002
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,679
or drop your name in this bucket and we'll give

1003
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:09,360
you a call and pray with you. So that and

1004
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,480
also to have a resource library, I think is the

1005
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,760
other thing is like when somebody comes to you with

1006
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,679
a problem, you want to have something to give them,

1007
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,320
You want to have some direction, So being I think

1008
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,480
also just informed about how you can help people, not

1009
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:23,599
just being like well there's an aa meaning down the road,

1010
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,800
like your church should be.

1011
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: Like a.

1012
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,199
Speaker 3: Well spring of resources and places where you can find

1013
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:37,760
comfort and help and direction. And so I think all

1014
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,000
ministry teams need to have that top of mind because

1015
00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:44,039
so many people are struggling with an addiction, whether it's

1016
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:45,360
this or something else.

1017
00:46:45,679 --> 00:46:52,599
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, what advice do you have for maybe fellow believers,

1018
00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:56,639
fellow women who don't struggle with alcohol? And I just

1019
00:46:56,679 --> 00:46:58,679
I would love your thoughts on like, is there a

1020
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,760
way for them to enjoy their freedom in that as

1021
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:08,280
Christians without tempting their fellow believers or without causing you know,

1022
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,920
a compromise for them or hurting other people who struggle.

1023
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,199
How do we find that balance of you know, if

1024
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:14,800
you do want to have a glass of wine with

1025
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,400
your book club, or if you you know, if you

1026
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,280
are someone who can have a glass of wine once

1027
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,639
a week with dinner or something, how do you practice

1028
00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:24,880
that freedom without compromising someone else or without causing them

1029
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,440
to stumble or sin or or just be hurt by that.

1030
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say being very aware.

1031
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,079
Speaker 3: I mean hearing this conversation hopefully that brings awareness, but

1032
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,880
just not that you can you know. I would never

1033
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,719
say like, you can't ever drink, because you're right, there

1034
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,880
is freedom and making that choice. But number one, like

1035
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,480
being honest with yourself about about your relationship with alcohol.

1036
00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:48,400
If you feel like you've been pushing something off, like

1037
00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:50,039
just be honest about it and try to get to

1038
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:50,679
the bottom of it.

1039
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 2: But if you really are like I don't have.

1040
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,159
Speaker 3: Any issue with it, and I'm going to have one

1041
00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:59,639
glass or whatever, I think just being knowing when you're

1042
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:01,719
going in to situations that there are people that might

1043
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,199
be struggling. So I wouldn't no circumstance ever have alcohol

1044
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,480
at a church event. For one thing, if I were,

1045
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:10,559
you know, hosting an event with people from church that

1046
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:14,159
weren't necessary and it wasn't necessarily a church sponsored thing,

1047
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,760
I would probably I probably still wouldn't have it because

1048
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,960
you just don't know who could be struggling. And if

1049
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,880
you decide to have to serve alcohol or whatever, just

1050
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:28,519
being very you know, not that necessarily someone's going to

1051
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:32,199
tell you, but maybe praying about it, just being like, hey, like,

1052
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,159
let my heart and my spirit be open to what

1053
00:48:34,199 --> 00:48:35,320
the Holy Spirit is telling me.

1054
00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: Like if this isn't wise, let me know.

1055
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 3: But if you're drinking wine at dinner once a week

1056
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,920
or twice a week or whatever, like, that's fine. That's

1057
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:45,119
you know, that's your thing. For me, it doesn't bother

1058
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:48,440
me at all when people drink. I am around it regularly.

1059
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,920
I've never expected anyone not to drink. My concern is

1060
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,400
really just for the people that are sort of still

1061
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,199
in the midst of the struggle trying to figure it out,

1062
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,840
and again we just never know who those are. So

1063
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,400
being aware and asking God to guide you in wisdom

1064
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,400
and that I think is really probably the number one thing,

1065
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,199
you know, and not worrying, not overwarring, not being legalistic

1066
00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,880
about it, but just awareness.

1067
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,159
Speaker 1: So I'm going to wrap up here, but I want

1068
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,519
the final thing. I just would love to know practical tips.

1069
00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:19,840
You offer some really helpful stuff at the very end

1070
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,239
of your book. You also talk about the wine witch

1071
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,199
in your book, so I just want to know, like, what,

1072
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,519
how do you practically beat the wine Witch, What are

1073
00:49:27,559 --> 00:49:30,119
good disciplines that you have adopted that you have found

1074
00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:33,800
to be super helpful in your sobriety journey, and maybe

1075
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,679
tools specifically to help moms with little kids who feel

1076
00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:37,920
like they are in the thick of it that they

1077
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,960
can't get through bedtime. What are your top practical tips.

1078
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say, like the beginning stages are

1079
00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:46,880
always the hardest. You know, the first few days, the

1080
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,280
first week, it feels like how could I ever continue

1081
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,920
doing this? So my first word of encouragement is just

1082
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,760
like it gets easier. I've never heard of person that

1083
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:55,800
god sober.

1084
00:49:56,039 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 3: That didn't say that, And so you just have to

1085
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:03,079
know kind of walk walk on faith in the past

1086
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:06,519
experiences of people and in the truth that you know

1087
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:08,800
that God has something better for you that this is

1088
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,119
going to get easier if you can get through these

1089
00:50:11,159 --> 00:50:11,920
beginning stages.

1090
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,559
Speaker 2: So that's that's the first thing the wine Witch.

1091
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:18,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a tough one and it does

1092
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,480
hit even if you don't have kids. Sometimes that five o'clock,

1093
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:23,519
six o'clock hour, it's just like a long day and

1094
00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:26,639
you're just like I just wanna relax. But believe it

1095
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,000
or not, some of that is habit. Some of that

1096
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:32,559
is like you're just doing it, You're going to it,

1097
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,199
but like, could could you transition that somehow to be

1098
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,480
a different habit? Like sometimes for me, like literally just

1099
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:42,760
like taking deep breasts or like I have like a

1100
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,239
neck massager like thing that I use sometimes just like

1101
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,480
doing those things, Like it's just the stopping. It's just

1102
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:55,079
the like action of giving yourself a minute that is

1103
00:50:55,119 --> 00:50:58,480
actually more relaxing than the drink itself. But again, you're

1104
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:01,119
associating it with the drinks. You think it's the drink,

1105
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:03,239
and that's the case with so many things. So I

1106
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,079
would say, like, what are some substitutes. Whether it's like,

1107
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:09,320
you know, I let myself buy really expensive mocktails and

1108
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,079
things when I first quit drinking because I'm like, well

1109
00:51:11,079 --> 00:51:15,960
that's fun, you know, get some of that. I definitely

1110
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:18,760
let myself eat more sweets at that time. But I

1111
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,320
don't know if that's the right decision for everybody, But like,

1112
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,079
what are some other habits.

1113
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,559
Speaker 2: That you can pick up? And it may feel I

1114
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:25,840
will fully admit.

1115
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 3: Like sometimes you're like that's not going to do it right.

1116
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,280
But here's an interesting thing. When we've been filling our

1117
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,960
bodies and our minds. With like this superficial high of drinking,

1118
00:51:36,679 --> 00:51:41,159
it has made it really difficult to experience the natural highs.

1119
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:41,599
Speaker 2: Of other things.

1120
00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: So it may take a while for your body to

1121
00:51:44,039 --> 00:51:47,280
sort of get off that loop of superficial highs. But

1122
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,400
once you do the normal things that are supposed to relax,

1123
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,199
you will begin to actually relax you right, you know,

1124
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,960
because it's like if you're used to you know, if

1125
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,920
you're like you like having the hottest in the world,

1126
00:52:01,519 --> 00:52:04,280
like you know what I mean, Like you're you're not

1127
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,639
going to be satisfied by the mild salsa, right if

1128
00:52:06,679 --> 00:52:09,760
you stop eating the hot salsa and then you sort

1129
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,119
of transition down, eventually that hot salsa will be like

1130
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,320
way overwhelming and like you can't even handle it. And

1131
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,199
that's how alcohol will be too. It's kind of like

1132
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,000
when you get rid of sugar. People that get rid

1133
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:22,079
of sugar from their diet, they're like, oh my gosh,

1134
00:52:22,119 --> 00:52:25,039
like everything is so sweet now that I've gotten rid

1135
00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:25,440
of sugar.

1136
00:52:25,639 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's all like physiological.

1137
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: And that's that's all things that happen, but it does

1138
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,199
take time. It's not going to be overnight. So I

1139
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,280
would say developing those new habits, you know, swapping things out.

1140
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,360
Having a list of things that you do before you

1141
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,559
let yourself drink is another one.

1142
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: So the idea of like you're like, if you feel like, oh.

1143
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 3: My god, I have to drink, but I'm going to

1144
00:52:49,519 --> 00:52:51,320
do these I can drink, but I first have to

1145
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,599
do these ten ten things, which is like could be

1146
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:59,119
something like step outside, take ten deep breasts, like you know,

1147
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,280
drink a glass of water, splash your face with cold water.

1148
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,639
Once you get to the end of those ten steps,

1149
00:53:05,079 --> 00:53:09,760
that triggering feeling will probably be gone. And you don't

1150
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,440
tell yourself that's why you're doing it. You kind of

1151
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,880
have to trick your mind. But the reality is that

1152
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,960
that moment of compulsion that is temporary.

1153
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:17,559
Speaker 2: Right.

1154
00:53:17,639 --> 00:53:20,519
Speaker 3: If you can bypass it, you're gonna say, oh, I'm

1155
00:53:20,519 --> 00:53:23,079
so glad I didn't I'm so glad I didn't drink, right,

1156
00:53:23,559 --> 00:53:26,039
And so you've got to build and build in these

1157
00:53:26,039 --> 00:53:28,960
tools into your life to help you overcome those moments,

1158
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:30,559
and then you know that you can do it, and

1159
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:32,440
then it gets easier the next day when you do

1160
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:32,880
it again.

1161
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,199
Speaker 1: Right, right, Erica, you have so many great resources aside

1162
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:39,079
from this book, which everyone should get a copy of

1163
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:42,480
this book. It is out January sixth, right, yes, okay,

1164
00:53:42,559 --> 00:53:44,719
January sixth, so perfect book to pick up in the

1165
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,599
New year, New Year. Knew you greet your resource. But

1166
00:53:48,679 --> 00:53:51,000
aside from reading the book, Erica, where else can people

1167
00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:53,440
find you? And I believe you have another online resource?

1168
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:54,320
Where can people find that?

1169
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:55,039
Speaker 2: Oh?

1170
00:53:55,119 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have sobrietycurious dot com. Sobrietycurious dot com.

1171
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,039
You can go and get my ten ten Steps to

1172
00:54:03,119 --> 00:54:04,360
Sobriety for Christian Women.

1173
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:07,159
Speaker 2: It's basically just a toolkit with book.

1174
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 3: Recommendations, podcast recommendations, some articles, just some stuff to get

1175
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,480
you started and sort of just you know, walk into

1176
00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:17,119
it with your curiosity. But otherwise you can find me

1177
00:54:17,159 --> 00:54:21,840
on Instagram, Erica, Underscore Anderson, same thing on TikTok pretty

1178
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:22,559
much everywhere.

1179
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 2: It's e R I C.

1180
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,559
Speaker 3: K A A N D E R S E in

1181
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,039
And if you google me, you'll find me all over

1182
00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:31,920
the internet. So I would love to hear from you too,

1183
00:54:32,039 --> 00:54:34,400
Like if you're the person that is like I've never

1184
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,320
told anyone or I'm struggling, like, definitely shoot me a DM.

1185
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:40,440
I'm always here for that kind of thing. And if

1186
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,400
I can be the first person that you reach out to.

1187
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,199
I would love to be somebody was that first person

1188
00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:49,239
for me, and I've been thankful for them for many years.

1189
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,599
Speaker 1: So awesome, Erica, thank you so much for your time

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for sharing your story. I can't wait for more people

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to read this book. It's truly excellent. I really hope

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everyone reads it. So thanks so much for being here

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00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:01,280
to and I hope to have you back on The

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Kylie Cast at some point in the future.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode

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00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,239
of The Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already,

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please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave

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00:55:17,519 --> 00:55:20,119
us a five star review. Next week is Christmas, so

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I will not be back next week with more, and

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the week after that is New Year's but I will

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00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,760
be back soon. So until then, just remember the truthers,

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but it won't kill you.