Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,
Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever
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to email the show, you can do so at radio
at the Federalist dot com. I would love to hear
from you today. I'm so excited to welcome to the
show Erica Anderson. She's a Christian wife and mother and
most recently the author of Freely Sober, Rethinking Alcohol through
the Lens of Faith. This book is available now for
pre order on Amazon and it is released on January sixth,
just a few short weeks away, So don't sit on this.
Definitely get a copy of this book. Today, Erica and
I discuss her own story, her own struggles, also how
the church can help people who struggle with this issue,
and also how to approach alcohol and sobriety from a
place of grace and forgiveness and empowerment rather than a
place of shame. So, without further ado, please welcome to
the Kayli Cast Erica Anderson. Erica Anderson, thank you so
much for joining me today on the Kyli Guest.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, back at you. Can you start by just
telling our listeners a little bit about who you are,
where you come from, and what led you to write
this book freely sober.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3: Well, I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm a mom of
two kids, seven and ten, So those are sort of
two primary things about me. But I've been writing for
many years and you know, this is my third book,
but a really special book for me because it really
highlights some of the tough things I've been through regarding
alcohol and struggles with alcohol. But I knew it was
something that God was leading me to write as I
was getting as I was going through that, and so
it's been a labor of love. It's been a you know,
a personal journey of overcoming and then wanting to use
what I've learned and sort of some of the wisdom
and the strength that I've gained over this time. I
want to share that with others because it's something I
didn't have in the beginning of this, and I want
to make that available to people who maybe are in
the beginning stages and just don't know where to go,
don't know what to do next, and really need sort
of a friend to walk them through what they're going through.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. As I was reading the book, I mean, I
haven't really looked for books about this before, but as
I was reading it, it struck me as something that
was both deeply personal but also something that there was
definitely a need for. I've never seen a book like
this before, and so you seem like the perfect person
to write it. Can you just walk us through a
little bit about why this book is needed. What are
some of the cultural norms specifically that kind of led
you down your path of struggle with alcohol.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Well one thing that I noticed when so I've been
sober for over five years now, but it was really
like twenty years of leading up to me actually quitting
before I got there. So when I started drinking, it
was in high school, you know, innocent enough like most people,
but it immediately felt like it was a little bit
of a problem for me, a little bit of an
unhealthy relationship, which I can trace back to partially genetics.
You know, some of this people are more prone to
addiction than others if it's in their family, and that
is true for me. But when I finally got to
the point where I thought I need to seriously think
about how I could actually quit drinking, there were a
very few faith based reas sources, and there weren't even
a ton of even very accessible secular resources at the
time when I first started looking into this, but specifically
for myself, I was like, as a Christian woman, I
don't feel like I have anything that speaks directly to me.
Speaker 2: And so as much as I liked.
Speaker 3: Every bit of quit lit that I read, all of
the books about sobriety that are out there, I enjoyed those,
they were helpful, I still felt like something was really missing,
and so I knew when I got to this point
that this was going to be something that really I
felt like God was calling me to do. But to
get back to what you were saying, women have been
drinking more in the past twenty years than ever before.
It's a big, long story, but to put it in
a nutshell, alcohol marketing has played a huge part in this,
and how they market very specific beverages to women and
then sort of upcharge them for the same things that
they sell to Men's called the pink tax.
Speaker 2: And so we have.
Speaker 3: Seen this massive campaign to target women with all kinds
of drinking, and women have taken them up on that.
And because of that, we have seen alcohol related deaths
in women increase by like something like sixty percent in
the past ten or twenty years, and it's affecting a
whole generation of women almost unexpectedly, to where many women
get to the point where they're like almost caught off
guard by the fact that they actually have a problem
and also a shame to admit it because it almost
because it feels like you're not supposed to you know,
it's like men sort of have always been the ones
thought of as having a problem if you look at movies,
if you look at history, it's like women are always
the ones sort of like keeping things in check and
making sure the kids are in order and all of that.
And so to be a woman and struggle with alcohol
is hard to admit, to be a Christian woman and
to be a mom. That takes it to a whole
other level, because moms are shamed just to a totally,
to a totally more level than dads are for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure there's so much to unpack too. And
the statistics about the rise in deaths of women attributed
to alcohol, I mean, does that even count the number
of It can't probably account for the number of women
who have gotten increased cancers because of alcohol, Like I'm
sure there's not even a way to quantify that totally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I mean alcohol related does this is why?
It's not It's not cut and dry. It's not that
you can say, oh, well, this person drank this and
so they died for that reason, right, But it's it's
a whole host of conditions heart disease, cancer, carres, all
kinds of things that compound. When we look at how
alcohol is associated with the way our bodies work, it
is associated with so many different diseases, so many autoimmune diseases,
and then you know, when you put all of those
numbers together, they have been able to tell, like, this
is how it is affecting women specifically, and it does
affect women's bodies in a different way than it affects
men's bodies. Obviously, men and women are different, and the
short term and long term consequences of drinking, but especially heavier.
Speaker 2: Drinking, is it's very prolific.
Speaker 3: You can see the difference in how it affects women
just more in a more powerful way. And so that's
not necessarily bet or good.
Speaker 2: It's just is what it is. That's how our bodies
are made.
Speaker 3: And I think that's one reason you see a lot
of women actually paying attention to this more. Not only
are we getting educated and we're seeing how alcohol negatively
affects the body, but we are much more in tune
these days to what's going on with our bodies hormonally,
what's happening reproductively. There's conversations around this more in a
holistic fashion.
Speaker 2: When you think about like the Maha movement and things
like that.
Speaker 3: We are sort of catching up to this conversation and
realizing not only is alcohol bad mentally and spiritually, it
is so bad for you physically. And so I love
to see women getting educated about this and seeing so
many people choosing to stop drinking alcohol, even if they
didn't see it as like a, oh, I have an
addiction problem.
Speaker 2: You don't have to have an addiction problem to stop drinking.
Speaker 3: You just have to decide this isn't what I want
for my life anymore, right, And you know that was
part of it for me.
Speaker 2: I also was having an addiction problem.
Speaker 3: But no matter where you sit on the spectrum, there
is no requirement to get to some point to say
you want to quit drinking. There's so many reasons that
people are doing it.
Speaker 1: There's also so many good alternatives now, it seems, I mean,
there are go anywhere and there's a million mocktails, or
go into any grocery store and there's aisles full of
refrigerated drinks that are not alcoholic that are just more interesting,
or full of probiotics, probiotics, you know, fancy sodas, all
of these things. Yeah, and once you pair that with
the Maha movement, and I mean, how many women and
how many influencers are Their entire brand is about detoxifying
your home and detoxifying your life. And you can't really
detoxify your life if you continue to pour toxins into
it in the form of wine or whatever. I mean,
it does no good to get rid of all of
the other chemicals if you're still just completely changing the
chemical balance of your body by poisoning it on the regular, So.
Speaker 2: Right, and I mean I think that's you know, we
see this.
Speaker 3: The American Cancer Society came out two years ago or
so and said that there is no amount of alcohol
that they can say is say it literally is as
you say, it literally is a toxin. And you know,
I don't know why it took us so long to
get to that point to understand that, but it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Think of all the.
Speaker 3: Negative consequences that happen to our bodies when we drink it.
Speaker 2: I think common sense is just sort of catching up
right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And there's so many people are way more
aware of it too. As we see fertility rates go down,
you know, in some ways inexplicably, and other issues like that.
It's like anything you can do to fix your body
and fix your life, and this is one of what
seems to be one of the big culprits of that.
So so when you said you kind of realized it
right away, But is there a moment that you can
point to when you realize I have an alcohol problem.
This is not just this is not just something I enjoy.
This is something that has a power over me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's been, you know, there were moments here and
there over the years. I remember one of the first
times that I really felt that was after a New
Year's Eve where I had gone out and really just
made a complete fool of myself and really kind of
blacked out. I have a not everyone has blackout drinking,
but it's kind of a biological thing.
Speaker 2: Some people have it, don't some people don't.
Speaker 3: I did have that, and so I had a night
that night in particular.
Speaker 2: I did not really remember what happened. I was told later.
Speaker 3: I was so embarrassed, and I, you know, this is
I mean, gosh, what year was this like a really
long time, like fifteen years ago or something, And I
was like, I have to quit drinking. And so I
was able to. I quit drinking for thirty days, which
I was in my twenties. So that was like really
hard because my whole life was like my friends and
going out. But after thirty days, I couldn't go any longer.
I was like, oh, this is like, you know, I'm
going to go right back to my old habits. And
so I would have sort of moments like that periodically
where I would do something that I was really embarrassed by,
or feel stupid, or feel out of control, and that
would happen and I would start this cycle over.
Speaker 2: So I would have those moments, but I.
Speaker 3: Think, really, what what pushed me over the edge to
really try to work on this is after becoming a mom.
You know, it sort of transitioned into a different way
that it fit into my life. You know, prior to
getting married and having kids, it was more like a
you know, I'm kind of doing my own thing, like
going out with friends or even drinking at home, but
nobody else was depending on me. But once you become
a parent, obviously, like your whole brain sort of switches around.
And so I had my second child and I was
onto this sort of wine mom personality. Not that I
was like calling myself that, but I was drinking wine
almost every day, and I would get to the point
where say, okay, I'm just I'm not going to drink tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm detoxing tomorrow.
Speaker 3: But then come six o'clock, I would find myself with
that familiar craving, with that like triggering feeling, and then
feeling almost compelled, like I cannot stop this from happening,
almost like when the thought entered my mind, I had
to obey it. And so I would drink and then
wake up in the middle of the night and I
would get panicked with myself, panicked thinking, oh my gosh,
I said I wasn't going to do it. I couldn't
stop it. This is out of control. My kid woke
up and needed to go to the emergency room right now?
Could I drive them there? I had these kind of
thoughts and those were the things that put me there.
And then also just thinking alcoholism rents of my family.
I don't want my kids dealing with this. The very
best thing I can do for my kids is to
stop drinking. And so that wasn't enough to you know,
do it. You know, I needed more than just one reason,
but a combination of factors sort of built up, and
I was able to get to that point where I
got curious.
Speaker 2: I started googling things. I started being.
Speaker 3: Really investigative about it without quitting, but just with an
open mind.
Speaker 1: You write about one particular time in the book where
you are putting your daughter to bed. Can you explain
kind of what happened in your mind at that time?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So I was rocking my daughter to sleep.
She was a baby, and I just remember prior to
us going into her room, I had been thinking, like,
you know, ped time is so hard. I had a
toddler as well. Bedtime is so hard.
Speaker 3: It's like I never ever get my nights anymore, and
I just I want to get through this.
Speaker 2: And looking back now, I mean I cringe to think.
Speaker 3: About it, because to rock my baby daughter to sleep,
like now that she's seven, I'm like, oh what I
would give to be able to do that again. But
that night, I was like, I need something to like
help me through this night. And I think at that
particular time, we had something in the fridge.
Speaker 2: And I like took a couple swigs or.
Speaker 3: Something like that, and I was in there and I
was rocking her to sleep, and I had this overwhelming
feeling of like what am I doing? Like I'm basically
buzzed right now rocking my baby to sleep, and why
what kind of person does this? I just you know,
really hurt, you know, really going against myself. And then
when she was asleep and I left her room, I like,
sort of the shame was so overpowering that I just
went and drink more to get rid of that feeling.
And so this is vicious cycle. And I just thought, I,
this is not the person I want to be. But
I feel so stuck in my patterns and stuck in
the physical addiction that I've created by telling myself I
need this to get through things.
Speaker 1: And I think you walk through some of this in
your book, but can you explain what exactly happens like
with our brain wiring or the incentive structure or whatever where,
Like why isn't that resolve enough? You know? Why can
you feel horrible and decide this is not how I
want to live my life and then twenty four hours
later be you know, compelled to do this thing that
just has seemingly complete control over you, Like how does
that work in the brain? And why, you know, why
isn't willpower enough to get right through these things.
Speaker 3: Well, this is really key for me and understanding and
being able to overcome, because for so many years I
just kept telling myself you are weak, you are not
trusting God enough, Like this is a matter of discipline,
this is a matter matter of willpower, like if you
were just stronger, you could do this, And.
Speaker 1: That was a shame as a motivator more right.
Speaker 3: Pretty much which pretty much doesn't work. And so as
I'm begin to educate.
Speaker 2: Myself just about alcohol and just like.
Speaker 3: The basics one oh one, I learned that you know,
when you start giving your body an addictive substance, you
teach your body that it needs that substance to get
through whatever moment it is you're getting through. And so
every night when I would have that feeling, I had
basically taught my body, hey, you're going to die if
you don't have this. And that sounds extreme, but that's
that's the kind of like sort of panic and overwhelm.
Speaker 2: Your body begins to associate with it, and.
Speaker 3: That feeling is so overwhelming, and so you don't realize
you've created that. You blame yourself, but really it's a
physical reaction.
Speaker 2: That you can deprogram. You can deprogram it. But it
feels impossible when you're in the middle of sort of
the addiction, so to speak. And that doesn't mean necessarily
that I was like if I quit drinking and I'm
going to have to be hospitalized or something. I wasn't
to that point all the people are. It was more,
I guess, a of a sort of mental physical collab there.
Speaker 3: But it was, yeah, like once I realized like, oh, actually,
this is a physical thing that I can change that
isn't going to be like this forever. I've taught my
body this, I can unteach my body this. That was
very empowering because I was able to stop blaming myself
because I finally realized that it's so much bigger than
just me and my willpower.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: Well, and you know when you talk about this feeling
of I'm going to die if I don't have this,
or I'm not going to be able to get through
this thing that I'm doing if I don't have this,
you know, liquid help. You wrote in the book about
more or less like coming up with errands or like
kind of revolving other activities in your life around being
able to get this alcohol. Even if you had previously resolved,
like I'm not going to have it in the house
because it'll be easier not to drink it if I
if I don't have it and then kind of going
out of your way to get it in other ways
that were more secretive or whatever. Can you talk a
little bit about that too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would, you know, as if you have
a drinking issue at all, you know that you make
a lot of rules and there's a lot of ways
that you moderate to try to pretend that you don't
have a problem or try to make sure you don't
go too far with it. And one of my rules
was that I didn't just sort of keep alcohol in
the house all the time because I just knew I
wasn't gonna be able to resist it. My other rule
was that I wasn't allowed to buy liquor, because liquor
can if you drink liquor, I mean obviously that could
very very quickly put you, like spin you out into
a really bad place. But because I didn't keep it
in the house, I always had to go get it,
like by the day. And so that might mean I'm
telling my husband, oh, I have to go pick up
something from Target, or I you know, if I'm at
the store, I'm like not walking by the wine aisle,
I'm definitely grabbing something. A lot of times what I
would grab is the little mini packs of wine because
I could easily sort of hide them in my purse
or I could put them in my bathroom. And it
sounds so crazy that you would hide something like that.
And my husband wasn't like giving me a hard time
about drinking. I just like didn't want him to know
that I was drinking, and I wanted it.
Speaker 2: It was like my little thing, like my little you know,
pot of shame.
Speaker 3: And so I did have that situation sign himes where
like I was hiding it in the bathroom and or
I was hiding it in my car or something like that,
and that obviously that told me, hey, this is like
a bigger issue, like normal people don't do this right.
Speaker 2: And as those kinds of moments began.
Speaker 3: To increase, I just felt like I was spiraling, and which,
you know, which was my motivation to step forward to
try to get some help if I could.
Speaker 1: So what was different about the time, you know, all
the times you kind of tried to will power your
way through it, what was different about that versus when
you actually did get sober.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for you know, there's a couple of
different things. Number One, I will say.
Speaker 3: For many years before I got to that point, I
was praying about this. I was talking with God about it,
reading scripture about it, like writing down prayers about it.
Even though I didn't and even though I did not
turn the corner, I think that faithfulness and continued sort
of turning to God to say like, hey, I want
to find freedom from this, Please help me. I think
that eventually really helped me. I think staying consistent in
my dependence on Him to one day find freedom, I
think that was kind of compounded and I eventually got
to that point. The other thing was some of it's
very practical. I heard someone once say, if you just
do thirty days, it's kind of like white knuckling it.
Anybody can do it, and then you're just like dying
to get to the other side of that, and you
drink again.
Speaker 2: They said you have to get.
Speaker 3: To ninety days to really feel what any kind of
freedom feels like. And so I was like, okay, like
ninety days, I'm just going to keep my eye on
ninety days. And I was able to do that, and
long story short, I did get sober for six months
and I was feeling really good. I even like sort
of spoke in front of my small church about it,
and then COVID hit and I sort of fell backwards
and went back to drinking. And at first it was fine,
you know, at first you're like, oh, this is fine.
Speaker 2: I got this.
Speaker 3: But then, like you know, by the time the summer
was over, I was back to all my old habits,
feeling out of control again. I said, I got to
I've got to take a thirty day detox, like that
was all I could do. I felt completely out of control,
and I was just like, okay, thirty days like sober September,
you know. And the difference that time around was that
I joined a community, which sounds I mean, you know,
you hear the same advice over and over again. It's
like community is everything. Well it really is everything, And
so I joined a community. It was a secular community,
but it was the first time i'd ever like been
in a group really with a lot of people. And
I saw people that looked like me, I saw people
that didn't look like me at all, and the stories
were all over the map. But people were coming into
that and this is on zoom, but there were like
hundreds of people on the meeting. People were coming to
the meeting, they like spilling their hearts out, sharing some
of like you hear the most wise, most beautiful comments
you'll ever hear on a recovery meeting, but it's not
recorded and nobody, you know, you don't write it down,
and so it felt like a sacred space and almost
like I was like, wow, like this is just a
whole different like level of life for me. And so
I stuck to those meanings and I was going all
the time. And at the same time, of course, like
I'm continuing in my prayer life, I'm leaning on God,
I'm you know, combining all of these different elements of
support to get me. I don't know, across the finish
line is not the right word. But I got to
thirty days, and because I was in that group, I
felt really strong and I kept going and I kept going,
and so then ultimately I like had my eye on
a year, and of course I was like, well, what
happens after a year?
Speaker 2: Like that's like I don't know, you know, but.
Speaker 3: You know, you just keep going. And so now of
course five years sober. It's such a relief to say
I don't ever, I hardly ever think about alcohol. And
it used to be something that was constantly running in
the back of my mind.
Speaker 2: Very oppressive, very It took up so much space in
my life and my mind.
Speaker 3: And now I'm so much freer to work on other things,
to pursue other goals. I mean, I feel like I
just cleared out so much crap when I got rid
of that, after so many years of having it just
play over and over and over again and keep me
down well.
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably such a good parallel to
so many other things that we struggle with other you know,
however you want to classify alcohol addiction, but like other
sins that have a hold on us or other you know,
compulsions that do and it can be anything, I mean,
whether it's like a pornography habit, or gambling or even
just gossiping or like anger, things like that. You know,
when you recognize this in your heart and in your life,
it's it's great to spend time in the Word and
to spend time with the Lord and journal about it
and confess it and pray and like those are all
good and necessary things, But it can be really hard
to find freedom until you surround yourself with the community
where you are identifying yourself as struggling with this thing
and either realizing that you're not alone, because then you're
not stuck in this just shame corner where you're unwilling
to confess this problem, but also finding accountability and community
and all of those things. And you know, what a
lie from the enemy to just keep us stuck in
shame and unwilling to surround ourselves with people who struggle
with the same issues. I mean, it's just he can
keep us there so long, and and just the freedom
that we can find when we finally step out and
say no, I'm gonna I'm going to find other people
who struggle with this, or maybe they don't, but I
just need accountability and community to surround me when I
while I kind of uproot this thing that's got a
hold on me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you also, don't you know, you get so
much wisdom from other people who have been there, who
are in the middle of it. You know, you begin
to realize, you know, I think part of it also
is beginning to realize that failure or whatever you would
term failure. It doesn't have to be what you might
have previously thought it was. When you're kind of walking
the road alone, like you don't have the perspective of
other people coming to me, Like actually, like, let's think
about the fact that you drank this day, but you
also didn't drink twenty nine other days of the month,
and that is way more important, you know. That was
another one I was encouraged by people in the group, say,
you know what if you drink one day, Like, let's
look at these are data points.
Speaker 2: We're being curious.
Speaker 3: We're just going to look at this and say, oh,
what happened, Like let's be let's instead of shaming ourselves,
get curious about why we're doing things so that next
time we can be aware of that. It's really more
about asking a lot of questions. You got to have
a lot of grace for yourself, and that's a good
thing in this situation. You just have to because if
you walk into these things shaming yourself full of self
criticism like that is that is going to keep you
stuck instead of letting you feel free and able to
make a decision based on new information, based on the
kind of life you actually want to have. You can't
make healthy choices when you're making them from a position
of shame.
Speaker 1: Right right, And as Christians, making choices from a position
of shame is not not the status of the believer,
Like that is not a gospel informed way of living
or thinking. You know, we have been freed from these things.
We are no longer slaves to sin. You know, we
do have power through Christ and so you know, not
that we can just like pray our struggles away, but
we also have a supernatural power and and forgiveness and grace.
And it's like, if the Lord is giving us those things,
then we also need to accept those things and live
as if they're true and not just be resorting to shame.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of the most powerful things and realizations to me
was recognizing that that even if I continued drinking, if
I never really got over this thing here on earth
like that, I wasn't going to lose my salvation. I
wasn't going to be loved by God any less. Now
when we walk in you know the will that God
has for us, like life is going to be more peaceful,
life is going to be better. But if even if
I weren't ever to get to that point, like I
didn't have to worry about losing love or salvation. And
that seems to me almost like, well, yeah, Erica, you
should know that as a Christian, but sometimes you don't
realize like the hold that some of those lies have
on your mind. But once I realized that, and I
was like, and it was just sort of like, oh, like,
you can be sober. You don't have to be sober,
but you know what I mean, It was just like
a mindset shift of have to versus choosing to.
Speaker 2: And that's really the whole reason I named the book Freely.
Speaker 3: Sober was that you can choose that, and you can
do that without feeling compelled, without feeling like it's a
requirement as a Christian or as you know, the person
that you want to be, and weirdly enough, that frees
you up to be able to make better choices.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I really love the title
of the book. And that's a really beautiful, beautiful image.
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Speaker 1: Changing gears a little bit. I'm curious what was it like,
you know, going to a meeting or maybe even like
admitting this to some fellow women in your church or whatever.
That's a really tough step. I'm curious what it was
like admitting this to your husband.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's interesting with my husband because he actually
grew up with in a very alcoholic household to like,
you know, the kind of like the stereotypical type of
thing where he was really a lot very neglected as
a child. His mom had severe alcohol and drug problems.
So when I would come to him and say I
feel like I have this streak issue, he'd be like,
you're fine. You know, for him, it didn't look like
what he was what he had dealt with in his life.
Speaker 2: It was definitely a different level.
Speaker 3: And so for him, he's supportive of me quitting drinking
or not, but he wasn't telling me, oh, you've got
to quit drinking. But also when I drank, he would drink,
and there were lots of fights when that would happen.
He does not have a good relationship with alcohol either,
And so I.
Speaker 2: Knew, if nothing else, that.
Speaker 3: Me quitting was going to be really good for our
family and our household because of the way that we
interacted when both of us were drinking.
Speaker 2: So that's something.
Speaker 3: But initially, a really huge first step for me was
sharing with my like my Bible study small group, like, hey,
I'm struggling with this, and it was really hard. I
remember I was so uncomfortable. I was like sitting on
the couch and I was like, well, I was looking down.
I felt stupid.
Speaker 2: I don't know why.
Speaker 3: I don't know why I felt so timid to share,
Like as someone that's been in small groups, you know,
my entire adult life and prayed many times with lots
of people, have been on mission trips for whatever reason,
like sharing this was so hard and it felt like
I was coming from such a dark place.
Speaker 2: But once I.
Speaker 3: Put it out there that honestly was the beginning of healing.
I mean, this was probably a year before I actually
was able to have any sort of extended period of sobriety.
But it really was like bringing it out of the
darkness and putting it into the light. And you know,
we all know that Shane dies in the light, you know,
and it's it cannot.
Speaker 2: Grow when there there is light around it.
Speaker 3: And so when I took that stuff to put it
out there into the light, that it only got easier
from there to continue telling people. And as I walked
into my sobriety journey, and like I was very kind
of like testing it out online and when I was
sharing a pretty open person online, like I've always had
a blog, I've always put myself out there, but I
would sort of say little things about like, yeah, I
kind of feel like, you know, it's you know, it's
kind of gone over and culture. I would just make
little comments to sort of see like what are people saying,
how are people responding? Until I got to the point
where I started being a lot more vocal about it,
and I was like I'm quitting drinking and I'm getting sober,
and that helped me identify as someone who didn't drink,
like I use that as a power thing in my journey.
Not everyone's going to do this. There are people that
are ten years sober that still don't want to talk
about it.
Speaker 2: I just felt called. I felt like, hey, I'm going
to go first.
Speaker 3: If more people were honest about this, if more people
were open about this, then less people would hide it
and think that it was something they needed to be
ashamed of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you noticed in your personal life or maybe
even in your online you know, correspondence with people as well,
But have you noticed other people who have come forward
because of your story who are like, you know, I
didn't know I had a problem, but then I read
about your story and I realized, I do you know?
Has there been any of that kind of response.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it's not necessarily people who are like
I didn't know I had a problems. It's mostly people
that are like I really haven't met anyone that's like me.
You know this that sort of fits this, especially the
faith part. Like I've heard from like pastors' wives and
like people that are like Sunday school teachers and just
like Christian homeschool moms, like I hear from a lot
of people like like that, the people that you would
never look at and think that they had a problem,
that are sort of hiding their problem like I was.
Those are the kind of people that I hear from
the most, that just say thank you. I really resonate
with this. I really want to overcome this.
Speaker 2: Like I've also had people message me. Many people have
messaged me.
Speaker 3: They'll say, Hey, I just want to let you know,
like I just celebrated a year of sobriety and you
were really influential in like getting me there.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what, I didn't even know.
Speaker 3: I had no idea, and yet they're telling me like
the stuff that I was posting was very motivating and
inspiring to them. And I'm sure there's plenty of people
that I just never say anything, but because of that,
it's just like, okay, like this is what I'm supposed
to be doing. And also, you know, I'm sure there
are people out there that are going, oh, like, maybe
I do have a problem. That's the other thing, Like
there are people that I say that people and I
did this to myself. Gaslight themselves. People gaslight themselves into
thinking they don't have a problem. They'll be like, well,
I don't, surely I don't. I mean that's normal, right, Like,
I mean it's fine. Everybody does this. I did that
over and over and over again. But it's like, if
you're doing that, if you think it's a problem for you,
if in any way it feels like a problem, it
is a problem.
Speaker 2: If it wasn't a problem, you wouldn't be thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Right, right, Like what kinds of things do people rationalize?
Speaker 2: They?
Speaker 3: I mean rationalize just like oh, it's five o'clock, Like
everybody drinks after work and like to relax, or oh,
like it's been such a long day, Like I cannot
deal with the witching hour with these kids. You know,
I just need something to help me get through it.
Or it's the weekend or it's a holiday or whatever
it is. Like I remember something I used to do.
A friend of mine said, Oh, yeah, my workout instructor.
She like drinks like two bottles of wine a night,
and like in such good shape and she just loves drinking.
And I was like, well, I mean this girl like
is drinking two bottles of wine and night and she's
teaching fitness classes.
Speaker 2: So like it's totally fine if.
Speaker 3: I'm drinking, you know, a half a bottle to a
whole bottle of night because she you know, and if
I can get up and I can work out in
the morning, and I can you know, get get through
my day, go to work and do all the things
I'm supposed to do, well, I can't have a problem,
right because I'm not staying at home all day and
like being worthless.
Speaker 2: So anything you can come up with to justify it, and.
Speaker 3: The world will happily go along with that, because other
people don't want to give up drinking either, and so
they don't want to tell you to give up drinking
because that would mean they have to question themselves.
Speaker 1: I'm curious in your research. So we've talked a little
bit about like the gender nature of these things, you know,
partly because of the marketing to women, and how that's
really changed women's alcohol consumption habits. But what have you
learned in your research about just the nature of addiction
between men and women, or how how problems with alcohol
might manifest differently in men and women.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the most interesting things I found, which
is that women in high power positions like surgeon or
a lawyer, those kind of jobs like you will see.
The numbers show that women have higher rates of addiction
than men, and so I don't know exactly what that means,
but I do think that like maybe women internalize some
of their stress more. They're sort of trying to hold
it together in a way that men are not a
lot of times women. I mean, I'm not I am
definitely not one to be hating on men at all,
but I do think that women, especially those who are
moms working in high power position, they are balancing more
sometimes than men are, just like more mentally, and so
I think that that could be part of it.
Speaker 2: I also think just the way our bodies imbibe.
Speaker 3: This stuff, like the way that we react, the way
it creates more of that physical addiction side of it,
what we're using to cope. We have different outlets, and
so that's I just think a vulnerability of women to
sort of go to that when everything sort of feels
out of control and they want to put on you know,
making it look like everything's okay when it's not.
Speaker 1: That would also make sense with the percentage rise. When
did you say, can you give the statistic again about
how much.
Speaker 2: Our consumption?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how over what time frame?
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's see, it's twenty twenty five, so it was
actually probably more than twenty years ago when the alcohol
marketing really stepped up its game. It's like it started
with you know, wine coolers and things like that, but
then they you know, you started seeing all these different
like marshmallow flavored vodka and you know, the skinny margarita
as soon as the marketing industry, so oh my gosh,
women are they want they want to pay for this
just as much as men like or not, if not more.
Speaker 2: I mean, it just kind of explo loaded.
Speaker 3: And then you saw advertising like you know, all about
how alcohol is like empowering, where it's you know, you
can be just like the guys or you deserve it,
and all of this stuff just sort of exploded, and
you watch alcoholism and struggles with alcohol and alcohol related
death explode at the same sort of same rate if
you looked at a chart. Now you can't blame necessarily
alcohol marketing for everything, like we have to take some
responsibility for our actions. But I do think it was
happening sort of low key. People weren't realizing the shift,
and now we do realize that, and now we can
take responsibility.
Speaker 2: One of the things.
Speaker 3: I know, one particular drink that people have struggled with
a lot is like the White Claw or the Truly's Like,
I hear about that all the time, and I was
certainly that was for me too, because you're like, oh,
this has like no calories and whatever. Right, But those
kinds of drinks, you know, with this focus on like
the localorie and the sweetness and all of that, but yeah,
still strong, those really have hooked people in a bad way.
Speaker 1: Yes, and not that you know, wine mom culture isn't real,
because of course that's a huge problem, but I think
probably a lot of it too. It's not just that
these people are moms. It's that they're moms who are
also doing a lot of other things. You know, very
much the feminist lean in culture where you're not talking
about women who you know, are just not I don't
mean just I don't mean to belittle this at all.
I mean, but they're not stay at home moms, like
that is not their sole responsibility. They're stay at home
moms who are also freelancing, or they're also working a
full time job and taking care of the kids or
all these other things and it's like, you know, how
do you manage all of these things that women were
never supposed to manage? And so that's just another way
to justify, you know, having something to cope to cope
with these things.
Speaker 2: And it's so true and you hear you know.
Speaker 3: I think it's probably less common now people are becoming
a lot more sort of aware that like, hey, telling
someone to have a glass of wine maybe isn't like
sort of PC anymore. But it's interesting to look back
at history and see, like in the I mean, I
think there was like sort of two periods of history
when this was most popular, but definitely like back in
like I want to say forties fifties, like women were
often given these like like prescription I don't know if
it was prescription, but like these drugs to sort of
helped them chill out loud in them I think is
what it was called. It was like, oh, they're nervous,
like they need to have this, and so they would
take this medicine that sort of help had them like
zombiing around And that was partially that was a lot
of women that actually were bored and didn't have a
lot of purpose in their lives and I think now
we're sort of at the other extreme. I think you
make a great point that many of the people that
struggle in the same position as me are women that
are trying to do so many things, and so it's
like we need to find the balance, like we are
trying to do too much, but you know.
Speaker 2: But we also need to have a purpose.
Speaker 3: And so where is finding that healthy balance and how
how do we create that in families and create that
in society. And part of that's like personal choices and
intentionality and just even understanding and being aware of this,
and part of it's just.
Speaker 2: You know, just yeah, just being aware.
Speaker 1: You talk in the book a little bit about there
being a grief associated with giving up alcohol or a loss.
Can you explain what you mean by that and why
maybe that could be an inhibitor to people taking the
step to give it up.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean I think people, you know, you, as a
drinker or somebody that's drinking, you might think like, well,
not everything was bad. It's not like every time I
drink it was like a total catastrophe. Like you think
of all the fun times that you had, like maybe vacations,
you went on, weddings, you went to concerts you attended,
Like there's a lot of really good memories and so
many good things in your life cross over you and
we have sort of integrated alcohol into all the celebratory
and good things that we do, and so it's like, well,
how can I how can I ever let go of
those things, like I'll never have fun again? But the
reality is that we are, like we never separated the two,
and so we think that the alcohol was the thing
that made it so great, and it wasn't necessarily true.
Speaker 2: But to speak to.
Speaker 3: The grief side of it, like it's okay to grieve
the fact that you're losing something that sometimes was a
comfort and sometimes that you you know, something that was
a friend to you at times, something that you felt
enhanced your life at times, Like it's okay to be
like I'm going to miss that, or like that's too bad,
but also recognize that this is it's not the same
as it used to be. You're a different stage in life.
You can make different choices. And it's interesting because one
of the things for me and I think a lot
of other people is when drinking, you're often trying to
recreate like the feelings of these other situations and you
really can't do that.
Speaker 2: You can't be like, this.
Speaker 3: Was like the best night of my life and it
was so much fun, and I want to.
Speaker 2: Feel like that again.
Speaker 3: Like you can't make that happen again by like drinking
and hoping to get there. And there's a lot of
disappointment and like sadness when you try to do that,
And so also just recognizing that those times have been
and they're not going to be again, and you're going
to make new memories and you're going to have new
joys in your life.
Speaker 2: But you know, just allowing yourself be like, I'm sad
that this is this.
Speaker 3: Is something I have to let go if I'm sad,
I'm not a normy drinker and this is something that
I even think about or that I have emotions about.
Speaker 2: And just allowing yourself to feel what you feel.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like basic psychology, like we have
to allow ourselves to feel our feelings, to process them,
to be honest about them, to get mad about them,
but then to be rational about it and recognize, Okay,
we can make a different decision and we can do
what we know is best moving forward.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you talk in the book about kind of
a balance between spiritual help and spiritual disciplines and then
more for lack of a better word, like secular or
traditional treatments that people sue. How has your thinking evolved
on that and what do you what do you think
about using these two things together?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many great
secular tools out there the way people think about it,
going to AA, going to support groups, you know, maybe
like using sober apps, talking things through just all of
the you know, normal things that you would think of
in terms of addiction recovery. But I think you're going
at the end of the day, if you are a believer,
at the end of the day, you're going to feel
like those things are lacking if you're not bringing in.
Speaker 2: Faith based practices as well, if.
Speaker 3: You're trying to wing this or you're trying to walk
through this without also relying on scriptures, without also going
back to God in prayer, without also recognizing the promises
of God in your life every single day, and talking
with mentors or friends who are also believers that can
encourage you, like we you know, you can get over
without that, for sure, but as a Christian, you're going
to feel like something is lacking, And I would even
argue you may feel something as lacking if you're not
a Christian, because ultimately the reason that we drink and
we're always looking for a feeling, and I think that
feeling is always that we're looking for God. We're looking
for this feeling, this like almost like heaven on Earth
that doesn't exist. And I think part of getting sober
for me has been accepting that, like it's never going
to feel perfect tier on Earth, and like we're always
going to have our struggles, but we were we are
visitors on this planet, and we were not made for
this world, and nothing is going to feel one hundred
percent perfect until we get to heaven. But in the meantime,
the best we can do, the closest we can get,
is being in the presence of God and in the
presence of community with fellow believers in the church, and
just using all those tools He's given us are going
to get us that much closer.
Speaker 2: And so I think you got to use it all, and.
Speaker 3: You're going to get it's going to feel better the
more tools that you implement, and you know it's going
to maybe depend on your personality what works best for you.
Speaker 2: But I think both of those things are super important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, A men to all of that, I feel
like we should just wrap it right there. It's such
good stuff on that note, what can churches do to
help men and women who are struggling with this?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So I feel like I need to do some kind
of a bigger campaign about this because I keep saying it,
but I haven't exactly gotten to the point where I
know how to get this across to everyone. But I
just want more opportunities. I want it to be acknowledged,
you know. I want it to be like a known
thing in the church, Like, hey, let's look.
Speaker 2: At the stats.
Speaker 3: If five out of one hundred women struggle with alcohol,
or however many men as well, you can bet that
that probably translates into the pews as well. So you
can know if you have a church's two hundred people,
that you have, say, ten people that may struggle with alcohol,
ten women that may struggle with alcohol. And because you
know that, how can you be speaking to that. Not
that you're necessarily directly calling it out, but you are
maybe incorporating that into commentary in this sermon. Maybe you're
offering an opportunity, like hey, if you're struggling with this,
like you know, we have someone that can talk with
you about this, giving people an opportunity because they're not
going to just come to you and talk about it.
Like nobody's going to be like maybe I'll just go
tell my pastor that I have a drinking problem.
Speaker 2: When I spoke in.
Speaker 3: Front of my church, there was one woman who I
didn't even know her, but she sent me a message.
She was like, hey, can I talk to you about
what you talked about on Sunday? And we had coffee
and you know, that was five six years ago and
we're still you know, we're still friends. But she would
have never ever told me or anyone else had I
not gone up there and gone first. Right, So I
think I just want churches to acknowledge it, and not
just this. I mean there are other things that they
should also be acknowledging, but giving people an opportunity. Hey,
it's not weird to struggle with this, Like we do
not judge you. We want to support you if that's happening,
like hey, we're going to have a session after church,
or drop your name in this bucket and we'll give
you a call and pray with you. So that and
also to have a resource library, I think is the
other thing is like when somebody comes to you with
a problem, you want to have something to give them,
You want to have some direction, So being I think
also just informed about how you can help people, not
just being like well there's an aa meaning down the road,
like your church should be.
Speaker 2: Like a.
Speaker 3: Well spring of resources and places where you can find
comfort and help and direction. And so I think all
ministry teams need to have that top of mind because
so many people are struggling with an addiction, whether it's
this or something else.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, what advice do you have for maybe fellow believers,
fellow women who don't struggle with alcohol? And I just
I would love your thoughts on like, is there a
way for them to enjoy their freedom in that as
Christians without tempting their fellow believers or without causing you know,
a compromise for them or hurting other people who struggle.
How do we find that balance of you know, if
you do want to have a glass of wine with
your book club, or if you you know, if you
are someone who can have a glass of wine once
a week with dinner or something, how do you practice
that freedom without compromising someone else or without causing them
to stumble or sin or or just be hurt by that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say being very aware.
Speaker 3: I mean hearing this conversation hopefully that brings awareness, but
just not that you can you know. I would never
say like, you can't ever drink, because you're right, there
is freedom and making that choice. But number one, like
being honest with yourself about about your relationship with alcohol.
If you feel like you've been pushing something off, like
just be honest about it and try to get to
the bottom of it.
Speaker 2: But if you really are like I don't have.
Speaker 3: Any issue with it, and I'm going to have one
glass or whatever, I think just being knowing when you're
going in to situations that there are people that might
be struggling. So I wouldn't no circumstance ever have alcohol
at a church event. For one thing, if I were,
you know, hosting an event with people from church that
weren't necessary and it wasn't necessarily a church sponsored thing,
I would probably I probably still wouldn't have it because
you just don't know who could be struggling. And if
you decide to have to serve alcohol or whatever, just
being very you know, not that necessarily someone's going to
tell you, but maybe praying about it, just being like, hey, like,
let my heart and my spirit be open to what
the Holy Spirit is telling me.
Speaker 2: Like if this isn't wise, let me know.
Speaker 3: But if you're drinking wine at dinner once a week
or twice a week or whatever, like, that's fine. That's
you know, that's your thing. For me, it doesn't bother
me at all when people drink. I am around it regularly.
I've never expected anyone not to drink. My concern is
really just for the people that are sort of still
in the midst of the struggle trying to figure it out,
and again we just never know who those are. So
being aware and asking God to guide you in wisdom
and that I think is really probably the number one thing,
you know, and not worrying, not overwarring, not being legalistic
about it, but just awareness.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to wrap up here, but I want
the final thing. I just would love to know practical tips.
You offer some really helpful stuff at the very end
of your book. You also talk about the wine witch
in your book, so I just want to know, like, what,
how do you practically beat the wine Witch, What are
good disciplines that you have adopted that you have found
to be super helpful in your sobriety journey, and maybe
tools specifically to help moms with little kids who feel
like they are in the thick of it that they
can't get through bedtime. What are your top practical tips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just say, like the beginning stages are
always the hardest. You know, the first few days, the
first week, it feels like how could I ever continue
doing this? So my first word of encouragement is just
like it gets easier. I've never heard of person that
god sober.
Speaker 3: That didn't say that, And so you just have to
know kind of walk walk on faith in the past
experiences of people and in the truth that you know
that God has something better for you that this is
going to get easier if you can get through these
beginning stages.
Speaker 2: So that's that's the first thing the wine Witch.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a tough one and it does
hit even if you don't have kids. Sometimes that five o'clock,
six o'clock hour, it's just like a long day and
you're just like I just wanna relax. But believe it
or not, some of that is habit. Some of that
is like you're just doing it, You're going to it,
but like, could could you transition that somehow to be
a different habit? Like sometimes for me, like literally just
like taking deep breasts or like I have like a
neck massager like thing that I use sometimes just like
doing those things, Like it's just the stopping. It's just
the like action of giving yourself a minute that is
actually more relaxing than the drink itself. But again, you're
associating it with the drinks. You think it's the drink,
and that's the case with so many things. So I
would say, like, what are some substitutes. Whether it's like,
you know, I let myself buy really expensive mocktails and
things when I first quit drinking because I'm like, well
that's fun, you know, get some of that. I definitely
let myself eat more sweets at that time. But I
don't know if that's the right decision for everybody, But like,
what are some other habits.
Speaker 2: That you can pick up? And it may feel I
will fully admit.
Speaker 3: Like sometimes you're like that's not going to do it right.
But here's an interesting thing. When we've been filling our
bodies and our minds. With like this superficial high of drinking,
it has made it really difficult to experience the natural highs.
Speaker 2: Of other things.
Speaker 3: So it may take a while for your body to
sort of get off that loop of superficial highs. But
once you do the normal things that are supposed to relax,
you will begin to actually relax you right, you know,
because it's like if you're used to you know, if
you're like you like having the hottest in the world,
like you know what I mean, Like you're you're not
going to be satisfied by the mild salsa, right if
you stop eating the hot salsa and then you sort
of transition down, eventually that hot salsa will be like
way overwhelming and like you can't even handle it. And
that's how alcohol will be too. It's kind of like
when you get rid of sugar. People that get rid
of sugar from their diet, they're like, oh my gosh,
like everything is so sweet now that I've gotten rid
of sugar.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's all like physiological.
Speaker 3: And that's that's all things that happen, but it does
take time. It's not going to be overnight. So I
would say developing those new habits, you know, swapping things out.
Having a list of things that you do before you
let yourself drink is another one.
Speaker 2: So the idea of like you're like, if you feel like, oh.
Speaker 3: My god, I have to drink, but I'm going to
do these I can drink, but I first have to
do these ten ten things, which is like could be
something like step outside, take ten deep breasts, like you know,
drink a glass of water, splash your face with cold water.
Once you get to the end of those ten steps,
that triggering feeling will probably be gone. And you don't
tell yourself that's why you're doing it. You kind of
have to trick your mind. But the reality is that
that moment of compulsion that is temporary.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: If you can bypass it, you're gonna say, oh, I'm
so glad I didn't I'm so glad I didn't drink, right,
And so you've got to build and build in these
tools into your life to help you overcome those moments,
and then you know that you can do it, and
then it gets easier the next day when you do
it again.
Speaker 1: Right, right, Erica, you have so many great resources aside
from this book, which everyone should get a copy of
this book. It is out January sixth, right, yes, okay,
January sixth, so perfect book to pick up in the
New year, New Year. Knew you greet your resource. But
aside from reading the book, Erica, where else can people
find you? And I believe you have another online resource?
Where can people find that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have sobrietycurious dot com. Sobrietycurious dot com.
You can go and get my ten ten Steps to
Sobriety for Christian Women.
Speaker 2: It's basically just a toolkit with book.
Speaker 3: Recommendations, podcast recommendations, some articles, just some stuff to get
you started and sort of just you know, walk into
it with your curiosity. But otherwise you can find me
on Instagram, Erica, Underscore Anderson, same thing on TikTok pretty
much everywhere.
Speaker 2: It's e R I C.
Speaker 3: K A A N D E R S E in
And if you google me, you'll find me all over
the internet. So I would love to hear from you too,
Like if you're the person that is like I've never
told anyone or I'm struggling, like, definitely shoot me a DM.
I'm always here for that kind of thing. And if
I can be the first person that you reach out to.
I would love to be somebody was that first person
for me, and I've been thankful for them for many years.
Speaker 1: So awesome, Erica, thank you so much for your time
for sharing your story. I can't wait for more people
to read this book. It's truly excellent. I really hope
everyone reads it. So thanks so much for being here
to and I hope to have you back on The
Kylie Cast at some point in the future.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode
of The Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already,
please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave
us a five star review. Next week is Christmas, so
I will not be back next week with more, and
the week after that is New Year's but I will
be back soon. So until then, just remember the truthers,
but it won't kill you.