WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:04.440 Canter is a very well respected name in the traditional 2 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:08.080 finance space and they have announced they're doing a two 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:13.199 billion dollar bitcoin backed loan program and Maypole, along with 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:16.399 falcon X, where two of the first two of the 5 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.440 first borrowing partners there. So what that means is that 6 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.679 we post bitcoin and then we borrow a larger amount 7 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:26.440 from them, So I think, I think like a wholesale amount. 8 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.280 This episode is brought to you by Treasure. Treasure makes 9 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:37.679 beautifully crafted hardware wallets that make it easy for you 10 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:41.399 to safely store your cryptocurrencies. I'm a big believer in 11 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:44.920 self custody. 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And if you 22 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.959 use the code thinking Crypto all one word, you can 23 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.120 get five percent off your purchase of a Treasure device. 24 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:26.640 So to learn more about Treasure and all their great 25 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.840 devices and services, visit the link in the description. Welcome 26 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.760 into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward 27 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.799 and joining me today Sid Powell, who is the CEO 28 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.000 and co founder of Maple Finance, and we're going to 29 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.560 discuss the great news this week with Canter Fitzgerald launching 30 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:46.079 bitcoin lending and integrating Maple as well. 31 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.879 Sid. Great to have you, Thanks for having me on. Tony, 32 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:51.159 very glad to be here. 33 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.239 Yes, Sid, you and I met years ago the Propy conference. 34 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:56.879 As I was mentioning before the recording, I don't know 35 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:58.599 why I took this long for us to set up 36 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.560 an interview, but I'm glad we're able to get this 37 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:02.200 on the books. 38 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:03.840 Yeah, me too, Me too. 39 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:05.599 It's definitely been a while and very very you know, 40 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:07.719 very different stet of the world now. 41 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.280 Oh yeah, maybe because you know, with the environment change, 42 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.759 the regulatory environment, the Trump administration is more favorable to 43 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.479 create it's actually a better time to have this conversation 44 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.680 because we can discuss innovation and not having to worry 45 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:24.280 about I don't know, the SEC and other agencies attacking us. 46 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:27.599 Yeah, yeah, you can definitely, you can definitely be a 47 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.000 little bit more you know, kind of kind of open 48 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.960 and imaginative, imaginative about the innovation going on, this going 49 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.360 on in the space. But you know, I will say 50 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.879 that like the SEC has been, you know, been very 51 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.400 welcoming now this year to the to the industry. They've 52 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:44.520 been hosting a bunch of roundtables. So I think it's 53 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.759 a very you know, it's a very positive dialogue happening 54 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:48.280 now with them. 55 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:50.919 Oh absolutely, it's a completely one eighty And in fact, 56 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.520 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I saw yesterday the 57 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.800 next roundtables around DeFi I believe. 58 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.879 I think so, yeah, we I think this would be 59 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:03.319 the final, the final roundtable in their series. I was 60 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:09.039 at the tokenization and the asset tokenization won a couple 61 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:12.080 of weeks back. So they're discussing you know, things like 62 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:17.759 real estate equities, you know, private credit, that type of thing. 63 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:19.960 But I thought, I thought it was really positive and 64 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.759 you know, the staff was very engaged and receptive, and 65 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:28.120 I think chair. Atkins was also you know, quick to 66 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.080 call out the benefits of tokenization, liquidity, transparency. 67 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.560 So yeah, I think I think hugely positive. 68 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:38.719 Oh yeah, lots of progress being made. Said, let's kick 69 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.960 it off with your background. Tell us about yourself, your 70 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.520 professional background, what led to starting Maple. 71 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.520 Yeah, for sure, I, like like many in the space, 72 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:49.800 I came from a traditional finance background. So I used 73 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:52.319 to be in banking in an area that's called securitization. 74 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:54.879 But what you need to know about that is that 75 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:59.000 it was working with lending companies to help them borrow 76 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.360 and access capital markets. And they would act almost like 77 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.280 mini banks. They take loans, they take really big loans 78 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:11.199 from banks and investors, and then they parcel those out 79 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:16.560 into smaller home loans, car loans, credit card loans, and 80 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.800 and so I was doing that in Australia and then 81 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:22.120 I went to work at another lending company which is 82 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:24.879 a bit smaller, bit more of a startup, but that's 83 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:30.240 where I sort of really got interested in crypto and 84 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.519 and the idea of smart contracts and DeFi and that's 85 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:34.240 that's where I met my co founder and we started 86 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.759 working on Maple. In the background, so always always been 87 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:42.240 involved in kind of finance credit lending, you know, prior 88 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:43.560 to starting Maple. 89 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.360 That's fascinating because to your point, your pedigree is in 90 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.000 finance lending, Barry and so forth. And then now you're 91 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.319 moving that to blockchain, right and web three. 92 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:54.680 Yeah, we're just doing the same thing on chain, and 93 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:57.879 I think, you know, the the AHA moment for me 94 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.240 was definitely when I was working at that lending company. 95 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:05.680 We had to borrow from banks, and I started thinking 96 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:11.759 about whether we could do tokenized bonds using smart contracts. 97 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.079 And this was you know, this was like mid twenty eighteen. 98 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.199 Then wrote a white paper early twenty nineteen. But you 99 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.720 have to remember the space was so early back then 100 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.920 that DeFi comprised like five companies. You know, there was 101 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:33.040 maker set Protocol, Dharma, DYDX, compound, and it was so 102 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:37.800 early that the idea of tokenizing bonds was you know, 103 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.839 you didn't have anything on chain that could be tokenized, 104 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:43.160 and so we we kind of had to evolve the 105 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.160 idea from there, and so Maple went through, you know, 106 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:52.120 through a kind of ideas of eventually doing direct lending itself. 107 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.240 But since then we've really focused on the institutional segment 108 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:56.879 in the market. 109 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:00.279 So what goes through the different services that you offer 110 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.279 to institutions. How can institutions leverage maple. 111 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:05.759 Two ways? 112 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.839 Primarily, so if you look at what we have today, 113 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:14.120 we do the bulk of our activity is overclateralized lending, 114 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.199 and in that instance we lend to institutions that might 115 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.720 include trading firms, centralized exchanges, family offices or high net 116 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:25.319 worth individuals, and. 117 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:29.680 Hedge funds as well. 118 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:35.040 And so they would post bitcoin or eth or SOUL 119 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:36.439 or XRP. 120 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:38.439 You know, large large cap assets. 121 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:43.040 And they post them as collateral and then borrow from 122 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.000 us against them and they use that in either op 123 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.399 X trading activity for if it's a high net worth 124 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:53.199 or a family office, they might use it for real 125 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.399 estate investment. That was a big one that we've had recently. 126 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.040 Wow. 127 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.480 And then on the other side side. 128 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:03.879 Of the on the other side of that product is 129 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:07.000 a yield is a yield product, and so we would 130 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:11.839 have corporate treasuries, high net worths, h hedge funds, asset 131 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.759 managers and UH and and increasingly DeFi protocols. 132 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.680 UH. They use us as a yield product. 133 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:22.639 So they might be sitting on stable coins they want 134 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:25.279 to earn a yield from them. That yield ultimately comes 135 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.959 from the loans that we originate. And then the other 136 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:31.079 the other product that we've offered this year has been 137 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:35.040 BTC yield product, and that's done in partnership with core Dow, 138 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.160 which is which is an l one uh and that's 139 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.959 that's a staking product, so we work with them. We 140 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.959 steake BTC along with the Core Governance token. But ultimately 141 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.519 the most important part is that for our users it 142 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.399 looks like a yield product where they put in BTC 143 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.560 and they get BTC yield back. So that's that's kind 144 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.079 of the most important aspect there. But that's that's that's 145 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:00.720 effectively the product sweet we offer. 146 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:04.040 Very interesting. Now you mentioned earlier some of the folks 147 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:08.720 who borrow against their collateral, they used the money to 148 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.639 invest in real estate. I didn't think about that that 149 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.600 they could take it to any other forms of investment, 150 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.680 but I guess that's an option, right as long as 151 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.040 everything's copasthetic with this setup. 152 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:22.399 Yeah, one hundred percent. 153 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.319 And you know, for particularly for a high net worth 154 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.959 who might have made their money holding crypto for a 155 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.799 long time, they still love they still love the asset, 156 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:34.440 they still love the space, They don't want to give 157 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:39.159 up the upside, and so by borrowing against bitcoin or 158 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.679 ether or soul or XRP, they're able to do that 159 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:44.840 and so keep the upside they do. 160 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:46.000 They also don't. 161 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:49.399 Realize taxable gains by having to by not having to 162 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:51.519 sell the asset. So if they had to sell the asset, 163 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.080 they're going to have to pay about a third of 164 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:56.200 it out in taxable gains, and then they're they're not 165 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.960 going to have the future upside there. And so one 166 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.679 example recently is we did a We've done a loan 167 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.720 where it's a high networth who's using it to purchase 168 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.120 a big, big piece of real estate that they intend 169 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.120 to live in and holders an investment, and so that's 170 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.000 a really good outcome for them. We can give them 171 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.720 certainty on the cost of financing because we do fix rate, 172 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.639 and they're able to keep the collateral in a qualified custodian. 173 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.720 They don't have to put in a smart contract. The 174 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.000 way that we do margin calls is much more user friendly. 175 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.320 We'll reach out on Telegram or over email. We let 176 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.480 them know, we give them twelve to twenty four hours 177 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.840 to post margin. It's not like using a DeFi protocol. 178 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:41.399 Where they might wake up one morning and boom, they've 179 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:43.320 been liquidated without warning. 180 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:44.240 Wow. 181 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:47.120 That's interesting because I thought, and maybe this was how 182 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:49.159 you guys had it in the past, that it was 183 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.919 maybe part of a smart contract set up, but in 184 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.039 fact it's at a qualified custodian so you have the separation. 185 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.279 Yeah. Interesting, it's a hybrid. 186 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:00.080 And that's one of the other reasons that institution and 187 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.399 typically you know, choose to come to US rather than 188 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:08.559 using another fully fully on chain DeFi protocol where they 189 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:10.200 have to wrap the assets and put them in a 190 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:14.240 smart contract. Is if you're holding BTC. You know, some 191 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:18.480 institutions have accountants who would say that wrapping in a 192 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.679 taxable event, so then they have to pay the tax 193 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.919 on the on their BTC gains, whereas with US, they 194 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:25.279 can use native BTC. 195 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:26.679 If they don't. 196 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.720 Want to take the counterparty risk of US of facing 197 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:33.919 US directly, they can put the BTC in a qualified 198 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:40.679 custody account using using a triparty agreement, so the custodian 199 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.320 looks after it. If it drops in value, then we 200 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:48.120 would have the ability to liquidate it. But it's it's 201 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.120 set up that really suits more conservative institutions. They can 202 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:57.799 use native BTC unlike smart contracts, and then and then 203 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:59.799 they can keep it in a custodian instead of having 204 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:01.919 to to take the risk of an exploit in the 205 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.200 smart contracts. And you know, despite how far the space 206 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.559 has come, we still see exploits happening all the time 207 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.279 when it comes to smart contracts. 208 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.000 Oh yeah, I was just about to at that point 209 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.080 as a follow up, the fact that we still see 210 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:16.759 a lot of exploits and things happening. I'm sure it 211 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.000 puts their mind at ease that Okay, this is not 212 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.759 wrapped up in a defied protocol. It's kind of pseudo 213 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.799 DeFi but it's what it qualified custodians that they can 214 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:25.399 sleep at night. 215 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:26.799 Definitely. 216 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.399 Yeah, that's a huge selling point for institutions, particularly there 217 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:31.960 for their compliance teams. 218 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:36.279 Wow, that's really great. So tell us how the partnership 219 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:39.039 with Cantor Fitzgerald came about and the big news we 220 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.960 heard this week of they're launching about two billion dollars 221 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.159 in bitcoin lending and how Maples plays a part in that. 222 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.799 We were tremendously excited about that announcement. So it came 223 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:57.080 out two days ago and Canter is a very well 224 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.480 respected name in the traditional finance space, and they have 225 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.600 announced they're doing a two billion dollar bitcoin backed loan program, 226 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.240 and Maple, along with falcon X, we're two of the 227 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.240 first two of the first borrowing partners there. So what 228 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.200 that means is that we post bitcoin and then we 229 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.399 borrow a larger amount from them, so I think, I 230 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:23.440 think like a wholesale amount, and then we use that 231 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:25.799 to grow our lending book. So for us, it gives 232 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:30.759 us access to larger amounts of capital, It establishes a 233 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:37.279 partnership with a well respected stratify name, and I think 234 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:39.919 it's a watershed moment where you'll start to see more 235 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:44.799 traditional finance names coming into the space and participating in 236 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:49.240 some way. Cantor obviously has very strong links and ties 237 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:52.720 to the industry through their relationship with Tether as well 238 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.519 as you know, as well as the former CEO how 239 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.759 at LATNX relationship with the administration being very pro crypto. 240 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:04.840 But I think, I think what this means is that 241 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.120 you're going to see a lot more institutions look at 242 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.559 either fixed income products against bitcoin or other bitcoin structured 243 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.080 products from here. And also, you know, I expect Canta 244 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.320 to really ramp up that two billion dollar program. 245 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.279 So sid, I just I want to make sure I 246 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.639 wrap my head around what this opens up for Mapel. 247 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.120 So it gives you more liquidity, like so maybe. 248 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.799 For us, it's Yeah, for us, it's more liquidity and 249 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.399 capital to lend out. So how it works is we 250 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.240 post bitcoin, we receive dollars, and then we're able to 251 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.320 lend those out to our customers. So for us, it's 252 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:44.039 all about growth and securing new financing partners who have 253 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:45.200 the ability to scale. 254 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:47.240 And I think it really. 255 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.120 Is a testament to the to the confidence that allocators 256 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.519 have in the transparency and the liquidity of what we're doing. 257 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.919 So all our loans go out on chain, so it's 258 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.080 it's very transparent into how it works. And then the 259 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.080 fact that Maple's loans are token ives and done using 260 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:10.759 stable coins, I think gives them a degree of liquidity 261 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.759 that's just not available when you look at traditional private 262 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.679 credit and. 263 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.759 These loans that are given out, what's usually the terms 264 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.639 on those are given that bitcoin's price does fluctuate and 265 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.159 on the macro it's kind of the four year cycles. 266 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:30.639 Yeah, it's it's a good question. Generally the vanilla standard 267 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.279 loan that we would do is you're looking at seventy 268 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.679 percent LTV. So if you give me a million dollars 269 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.279 of BTC, I give you seven hundred thousand dollars loan. 270 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.879 We normally do it open term with the ability to 271 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:48.360 recall within thirty days. You've got very short, short dated 272 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.000 liquidity and access to the return of capital pretty quickly. 273 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:58.080 And then at this stage, obviously the price of bitcoin fluctuates, 274 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.240 and the and the interest rates against bitcoin also fluctuate. 275 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.879 I would say roughly, you're seeing kind of market pricing 276 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.759 in the like nine to ten percent range at the 277 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:14.440 moment for corporate borrowers. And how we manage risk given 278 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.720 your point Tony about the fluctuating price of bitcoin, is 279 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.240 we have an initial LTVs that's at seventy percent level 280 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.240 I mentioned, and then we would have an eighty percent 281 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:24.519 LTVs which. 282 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:25.080 I reach out. 283 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:27.600 That's the point at which we reach out and ask 284 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.039 for either more bitcoin or for the borrower to start 285 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.399 to pay back some of the loan. And then at 286 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.320 eighty five percent LTV, that's when we have a stop 287 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.320 loss level. So at that point we're just looking to 288 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:42.320 liquidate the bitcoin. But in our case, we can liquidate 289 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.679 it back to just the initial LTV, so it's we're 290 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.600 not fully liquidating the borrower and so it's not a 291 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:53.120 terrible experience for them, whereas often in the defile loans 292 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.200 it's a full liquidation and then there's very heavy penalties 293 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.559 on the feed associated with the liquidation. So we try 294 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.480 and do a little bit more of a borrower friendly 295 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.320 product here, and that's that's again another reason why institutions 296 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:13.279 will choose us. But I'm I'm very very confident that 297 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.240 bitcoin back lending is going to be the next way 298 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:20.440 that institutions really participate in the space because it pays 299 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.320 out three to four percent more than T bills, super 300 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:25.440 short data. You can get your money back within a month, 301 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.120 and then it's overclateralized by an asset that trades over 302 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:30.240 fifty billion. 303 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.360 Dollars a day worldwide, and. 304 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.600 You can you can, you know, you can exit a 305 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.600 position at two am on a Sunday if you want 306 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.039 very different to you know, to to to selling houses 307 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.799 with real estate, back to mortgages. 308 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.159 Oh absolutely. And you know, it seems like the puck 309 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.840 is heading to a place where Bitcoin becoming this ultimate 310 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.600 reserve asset. You know, countries is setting up Bitcoin strategic 311 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.159 reserves Just yesterday Pakistan they announced they are going to 312 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.919 follow United States and do the same thing. Yeah, ETF, 313 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:05.559 you have corporate treasury, right, Michael Saylor's playbook, And it 314 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:07.599 seems to your point what we were talking about earlier. 315 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.240 Folks don't want to sell this asset, but they want 316 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.680 to hold on to it and then borrow against it 317 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:13.559 used as collateral. 318 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:18.759 Absolutely, it's holding it as a reserve asset gives you 319 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.640 the ability to quickly access cash by using it as collateral. 320 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.400 I think you'll see a lot more. You'll see a 321 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.279 number of countries I think, adopted as a strategic reserve, 322 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.000 and it's kind of just the next evolution in sovereign 323 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.759 wealth funds in a way, you know, a lot of 324 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.519 a lot of countries, most famously Norway, some of the 325 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.680 golf countries set up sovereign wealth funds to you know, 326 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:46.160 to to to invest and preserve wealth for future generations. 327 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:48.759 And that's how I see that's how I see bitcoin 328 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.720 strategic reserves for the United States and for other countries 329 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:57.599 following suit. Also, I think I'm very interested in the 330 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.720 trend among some of these corporate treasure even publicly listed companies, 331 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.119 in holding bitcoin, and I think it shows that the 332 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.640 market is clamoring for this exposure, and we also see 333 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:13.119 a strategic opportunity for Maple to be a financing partner. 334 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:14.759 One of the things that not a lot of people 335 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.279 remember is that Sailor had a facility with Silvergate Bank 336 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.799 back in twenty twenty two, prior to the banking collapse 337 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.839 in early twenty twenty three. But what a facility borrowing 338 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:32.160 against your bitcoin or ether or soul allows you to 339 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.240 do is opportunistically buy the dips in the market. And 340 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.319 so I think, you know, Maple would love to work 341 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.079 with some of these treasury companies, and indeed we're starting 342 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.599 to make outreach to them. But we can be a 343 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.160 facility that allows them to opportunistically buy dips and then 344 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.880 anytime they want, they can repay the facility using convertible notes, 345 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:57.759 equity issuance pref equity issuance. But it just gives them 346 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.400 another arrow in their quiverity. 347 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.359 Use mm hm And do you believe that eventually, uh, 348 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.920 you know, everything pretty much starts with bitcoin first and uh, 349 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.519 but then we may see folks go to ethereum and 350 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.200 then x RP is literally over the past two days, 351 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.519 you had an etherorem treasury strategy news announced from a 352 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.880 public company, and yesterday an XRP treasury strategy, So it 353 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.160 seems like there's a race here. 354 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.920 Yeah, I think, uh, Bitcoin, e F, x RP, and 355 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.400 SOUL are kind of you know, they're they're you know, 356 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.400 they have the highest liquidity in the space, and so 357 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:36.319 they're kind of the preferred, uh, starting points for institutions. 358 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.400 But I do think, uh, I do think that bitcoin 359 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.680 is kind of the gateway drug. When I talk to 360 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.400 people at Galaxy, at coin base, some of these uh, 361 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.960 you know, more institutional shops. Whenever they talk with the 362 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.960 pension funds, the endowments and and the uh the insurance companies, 363 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:56.480 you know, your your big balance sheet investors in tread fy, 364 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.319 the starting point for all of them is is bitcoin. 365 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.759 They just want to buy bitcoin. And so how we've 366 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.799 positioned ourselves is we then offer the two next products 367 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:08.839 from there, which are borrow against your bitcoin or lend 368 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.240 against bitcoin, and the other one being how do you 369 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.000 get a yield on your bitcoin? So the bitcoin yield 370 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.799 strategy we run. But I think that's the natural kind 371 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.559 of gateway drug. That's the next thing they think about. 372 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.599 But you're absolutely right, Tony. Of course they're going to 373 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.559 look at at ethereum, and you've already seen that in 374 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.920 practice with black Rock and Biddle. You know, it's got 375 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.160 over a billion dollars of tokenized assets and money market 376 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.440 funds on ethereum. And I think somebody made a point 377 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.480 the other day, but I think Ethereum has kind of 378 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:49.279 evolved into the DeFi debt capital market and in another sense, 379 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.440 Solana has become kind of the center for a lot 380 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.160 of you know, tokenized equities and equity capital markets. 381 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:01.960 And how do you feel the staking component to ETH, Well, uh, 382 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.759 when the product eventually gets built around ETH, right, could 383 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.359 that be a very strong incentive because you're you're already 384 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:08.440 getting a natural yield? 385 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:09.960 I think, uh. 386 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.720 I think ETFs have been looking at staking eth for 387 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.119 a while, and I think actually there's there's a couple 388 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.079 of ETPs or exchange traded products that are outside of 389 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.839 the US that have staking built into them. I think 390 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:24.880 one in the UK and one and one in Canada. 391 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.880 Uh So I think, uh, I think once you when 392 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.160 you have the initial call it spot asset, so whether 393 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.359 it's BTC or ETH, uh, that's always that's V one 394 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.440 of the product. And then you get to staking as 395 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.960 kind of a V two because competition drives this, right, 396 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.359 you have to you know, if if you've got five 397 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.920 BTC and eth ETFs, uh, the sixth one is going 398 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:50.799 to have to do something different and so it's going 399 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:53.400 to have to look at either staking or generating a 400 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.400 yield on the assets somehow, and the market's going to 401 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:57.240