WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:09.039 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of the JavaScript 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:10.240 Jabber Podcast. 3 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:12.240 This week, on our panel, we have Dan. 4 00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:16.280 Shapiir Hey from a howt tel Aviv a j. 5 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:22.760 O'Neil yo yo yo, coming at you live from blistering Utah. 6 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.440 Steve Edwards. 7 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:29.879 Yo, just one yo for me coming from a formerly 8 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:31.920 warm but now cooling down Portland. 9 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:36.960 Yeah, I was just outside AJ. It's not terribly hot yet. 10 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:41.479 It's gonna be hot this afternoon, but yeah, I'm also 11 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:42.000 in Utah. 12 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.840 On Charles Maxwood. We're talking to Ryan Dall this week. 13 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:48.759 And Ryan, I'm just gonna do a little bit of 14 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:50.240 an intro and then you can tell me all the 15 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:52.200 cool stuff that you've done that I don't mention. 16 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.600 But you're largely credited with creating. 17 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:01.000 No JS, I know other people we've been involved in that, 18 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.280 and you've moved on to also then create Dino. 19 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:08.680 I think those are the kind of the big things 20 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:09.359 that you're known for. 21 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:11.799 Are there other things that people ought to be aware 22 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:12.680 of other. 23 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.640 Than that you're a cool guy? 24 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:21.920 Because I think those are the flagship things that I've done. 25 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:29.319 Awesome. So I'm just going to jump in. We're kind 26 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:29.719 of doing this. 27 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:31.879 We usually record on Mondays, and we're doing this out 28 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:33.319 of band just so we could get you in and 29 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.680 let people know about what's going on here. So Dino 30 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.799 two is coming out, and I think that's kind of 31 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:46.599 where we want to start. And you know, you send 32 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:48.599 us some material, but I kind of like to just 33 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.359 let you explain some of this. 34 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:53.000 You had Dino. 35 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:57.439 And you know, Dino's been out for a while and 36 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.599 I know some people are using it and enjoying using it, 37 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:04.400 But why did you need a DNO two? Like there 38 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.359 were there things that you weren't able to do in 39 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:08.919 dn O one that you needed to do or is 40 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:10.520 it just like faster better? 41 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:12.520 And I don't know. 42 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:14.240 Yeah. 43 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:19.520 I mean, first, there is Node, and I think you 44 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:24.719 know the idea that JavaScript is this language that everybody 45 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:29.360 knows and it's got a really great VM via Chrome, 46 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:35.680 this this V eight VM and JavaScript is is you know, 47 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:41.479 Node was essentially ide eating on how you could take 48 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:45.080 this client side programming language and attach it to servers 49 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:47.759 and the fact that when you click on a button 50 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.360 and get a call back, it's pretty similar to a 51 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.039 web server getting a request and getting a callback, and 52 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.479 that event driven programming is actually a pretty optimal way 53 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:03.960 to structure servers and uh, Node, I guess it goes 54 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:12.599 without saying these days is pretty popular. So that's project, uh, 55 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.520 you know, be used by I don't know, essentially every website, right, 56 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:21.039 I'm certain we're recording this on stream yard dot com. 57 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.039 It probably probably uses node in some form or another. 58 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.439 Almost all websites do it. It is in some some 59 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.919 ways the cornerstone of the Internet. And uh, that is 60 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.960 largely because JavaScript is the default programming language and so 61 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.199 important it is. It is not like Java, it is 62 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.639 not like c It is kind of intrinsic to humanity 63 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.280 because so much of the world has been built on 64 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.199 top of web browsers. 65 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:49.400 Right. 66 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.879 You access your library through the web browser, you access 67 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:56.120 your bank through the web browser. And this infrastructure is 68 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:00.360 not going to change anytime soon. It's its future proof 69 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.560 in a certain way. Like I'm pretty sure we'll be 70 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:07.039 using a GP and CSS five years from now, if 71 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.800 not ten or twenty years from now. And CSS and 72 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.919 and HGP are not dissimilar to JavaScript. They are protocols 73 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:19.040 that make up the web, and so JavaScript is kind 74 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.759 of future proof in this way. And that is really 75 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:26.360 the reason that Node has grown so big. I mean, 76 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.879 note was I think I did a pretty good job 77 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:33.399 attaching a web server to JavaScript. But you know, ultimately 78 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:38.839 it's kind of the growth of JavaScript that drove notes success. 79 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.519 But you know, Node. 80 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:45.439 Has before if I can interrupt, because I have to 81 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.519 ask about this before you move on to what came 82 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:54.639 after Note. So you basically stated here like two big 83 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.480 motivations for the creation of Node, and I'm kind of 84 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.399 curious if they if any one of these two was 85 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:07.720 the primary one when you when you like envision initially 86 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:12.439 envisioned it. One was, as you said, using JavaScript, which 87 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.120 is the cornerstone of the web on the server side. 88 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:22.040 The other being the event model and and you know, 89 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:25.560 the event loop and and all this mechanism, which, as 90 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.639 you said, turned out to be such a great match 91 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.759 for uh, for the server side, Like a lot of 92 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.680 people initially didn't expect that, and you had the foresight 93 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.600 to see that that it that it is such a 94 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:45.079 great match. So I'm curious as to which one of 95 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.040 these two was the primary motivation or they like equal. 96 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.720 It was the realization that those two compliment each other, 97 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.079 that that was the creation of Notes. So a little 98 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.639 bit before Note, like you know, let's let's say two 99 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:06.240 thousand and eight. Two thousand and seven, I was working 100 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:09.839 on engine X modules. Engine x is a kind of 101 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.040 native web server that is written in C and is 102 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.519 event driven, and at the time, driving event loops was 103 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:21.439 kind of an unknown subject, like you had to be 104 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:23.560 a real expert, you had to really know what you 105 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.360 were doing to kind of drive equal In two thousand 106 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:31.439 and eight, and I was aware that this was kind 107 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.600 of the optimal way to drive web servers as opposed 108 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:39.680 to starting a thread per request, and I was enthralled 109 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.920 by this thing and looking for ways to make this 110 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.199 easier and bring this to a larger audience of programmers. 111 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.240 It was like literally like one hundred people who knew 112 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:52.079 about this, and maybe a bit more than that, but 113 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:55.000 like you just had to be this like an expert 114 00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.279 and part of some subculture to build an event than 115 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:03.920 web server. And I was looking at different programming languages, 116 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:08.319 originally Ruby, looking at Haskell for a little bit, looking 117 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:13.920 at ways to kind of bind to drive web servers 118 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.879 in an event driven way and in a you know, 119 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.519 backed by epole on Lenux and inspired a lot by 120 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:28.040 twisted Python and event machine and Ruby and the problem 121 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.920 you know, looking at those things deeply found that the 122 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.399 big problem with those systems was that they interacted really 123 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.079 poorly with the rest of the standard library. So if 124 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.439 you take SA event machine in Ruby, you realize that 125 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.879 there's all sorts of blocking operations elsewhere in the Ruby stack. 126 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:49.680 And and if you take kind of non blocking stuff 127 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.199 and blocking stuff and just try to merge them altogether, 128 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:56.000 like you just it ends in disaster. Because the trick 129 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.959 with with event driven web servers is you could never 130 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:02.439 block the event. That's the that's the you know, the 131 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:04.920 principal thing that you have to do. And so you 132 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:07.279 have to really build the system from the ground up 133 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.319 to be non blocking, an event driven. And I had 134 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.879 the insight, you know, maybe the singular insight in my 135 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:20.639 life that oh my god, JavaScript offers the opportunity because 136 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:23.680 there is no defined standard library, there's no defined way 137 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:26.639 of interacting with the operating system. Into two thousand and eight, 138 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:31.920 there was no server side JavaScript. This offers kind of clean, 139 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:37.840 clean landscape for me to build up a pure event 140 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.600 driven web server and all of the associated libraries that 141 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.519 you need to do that. So if you're making say 142 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.320 an outbounds TCP connection, you also have to drive that 143 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.639 in a non blocking way, or if you're doing a timeout, 144 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.320 you also need to you you cannot block the event 145 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.759 loup when you sleep for for a couple of seconds. Right, 146 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.480 all of this needs to be event driven. And yeah, 147 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:06.120 so this just works magically with JavaScript and makes all 148 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:08.600 of this much more accessible to people. So, you know, 149 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:09.039 I think. 150 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:10.759 The the broad. 151 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.080 Bent of what I'm trying to do is make and 152 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:17.679 I think this continues through Dno One and Dino two, 153 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.240 is trying to make programming accessible to people and allowing 154 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:27.519 them to program pretty deep important infrastructure, you know, driving 155 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:32.279 event driven web servers and whatnot with just a few 156 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:35.399 lines of cote and and you know, without necessarily understanding 157 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.279 what is happening at the lower layers with people and 158 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:43.080 everything else that's going on. I think most Node users 159 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.600 have no idea about any of those those things. And 160 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:48.320 that's great. It's a it's a clean abstraction. 161 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.960 So I guess what I'm wondering then, is so, so 162 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.399 you popped the hood on d O one and you said, 163 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.320 we're going to change out some of this stuff, right, 164 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.600 We're going to we're going to add some new features 165 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:06.000 to the to the engine, or I don't know. 166 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.039 This metaphor is going to get real weird in a minute, 167 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:09.080 I guess. 168 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:13.399 But so what I'm wondering is, is you know what's 169 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.799 different between Dno one and Dino two that get you 170 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:17.639 to this thing that you're trying to create. 171 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.679 Yeah, so okay, let me let me take a little 172 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:26.000 step step back and just introduce Dino a bit. So 173 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:31.120 around twenty nineteen or so, I've been working on other stuff, 174 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.720 I haven't been working on Node, and kind of came 175 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:38.639 back to Node and was starting to look at it 176 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:43.080 deeply and was really kind of disappointed about how I 177 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.759 found the state of note. Obviously I follow it, like 178 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.519 know that it's growing, but you know, it did not 179 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.200 feel like the clean, simple abstraction that I was going for. 180 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.159 You know, when you start adding all of these NPM dependencies, 181 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:02.639 you have like a two gigabyte modules folder, There's there's 182 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:07.639 common JS everywhere, there's ECMAScript modules, the HGP client and 183 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.960 Node is different than the HP client and web browsers. 184 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:16.279 It was just this kerfuffle that, you know, really disappointed 185 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.000 me because this is getting away from the goal of 186 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:21.320 like you don't need to know what's going on, you 187 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.000 can just sit down and start programming. 188 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:23.159 Right. 189 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.320 JavaScript is for the children, like it should be should 190 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.120 be easy for people to just start getting programming, start 191 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.720 getting going. Also, on top of all of this, Typescript 192 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:38.759 was very clearly becoming a thing, and integrating Typescript into 193 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.720 your NOE project required all of this setup and configuration 194 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.200 files and builds, and it's just it starts making it 195 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:49.559 not very nice to program in. And so started Deno 196 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:53.879 with with the idea to clean up a lot of 197 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.799 this stuff with a kind of from the ground up 198 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.960 run time implementation, not in C plus plus like I 199 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:04.679 did with Node, but uh in Rust, a new new 200 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:09.000 new language, and really focus on making a typescript first, 201 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.440 narrowing the gap between server side JavaScript and web browser JavaScript, 202 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:18.039 really using web standards, making an emascript module first, making 203 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.440 it batteries included. That is having kind of a tool 204 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:25.720 full tool chain of programming utilities that you need because 205 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:28.320 you know, it's not just the execution of JavaScript. You 206 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.519 also need code formatting and linking, and you need an 207 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.279 LSP to connect to your editor, and the list goes 208 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.159 on and on, like you really need a full tool 209 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:40.759 chain of things. And you know, in my mind that 210 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.080 is the run times obligation to provide those things I 211 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.799 really like how go UH does things. It's it is 212 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.919 a all you need is go and UH. It gives 213 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.039 you everything that you need to get started. On top 214 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:55.559 of all of. 215 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:59.720 This, If I can interject again and I apologize for 216 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.679 rupting you, it seems that basically said what you're saying 217 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:09.200 is that you had this great idea, but in certain 218 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.320 ways it was kind of ahead of its time. You 219 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.600 basically invented and created a lot of the ecosystem, and 220 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:21.840 as the ecosystem evolved and matured and introduced by four 221 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.320 certain pieces that were missing at the time, Like you know, 222 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:30.559 acmascript models just weren't available when you created notes, so 223 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.559 you kind of had to invent common JS to create 224 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:40.120 this module system. So and in a sense you were 225 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:44.720 kind of stuck with those inventions that you created, even 226 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.879 though over time a lot of them turned out to 227 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.720 be less than ideal. Is that the proper way of 228 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:57.320 saying it, and like node can't change for the same 229 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.440 reason that browsers can change. I mean, a lot of 230 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.759 us would be happy to go back maybe and change 231 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:07.879 a lot of the various domain pis, but it's impossible 232 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:12.720 because backward compatibility trumps everything else. You can't break the web, 233 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:17.320 and likewise, you can't break the million applications that currently 234 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:21.559 run on Node. But the big difference is that on 235 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:25.120 the front end, you know, the browsers are what they are. 236 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.879 On the back end you have the option of using 237 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.799 maybe something else instead of Note. You're not breaking compatibility 238 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:37.360 if you decide to use something else. So does that 239 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.159 kind of paint the picture of why you kind of 240 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.320 instigated Dino is like you're certain a chance for a 241 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.840 redo or retry something like along these lines of, hey, 242 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.919 I now have promises, I can do a weight stuff 243 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:53.279 like that. 244 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.840 I think of it in terms of like scaling limits, 245 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:01.279 like Node just kind of reached this scale that, like 246 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.480 the note has this kind of small core philosophy, Like 247 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.720 the philosophy of Node, you know, just kind of started 248 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.519 breaking down at a certain scale. And I you know, 249 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:13.600 it's unfair to say it's breaking down. I mean, like 250 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:16.080 note is the cornerstone of the Internet, right, I mean, 251 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.639 it's it's totally fine, but I think there is still 252 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:25.399 an opportunity there. JavaScript is going to last many years 253 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.200 from now. We are not at the end state, and 254 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.879 like Node in twenty nineteen, I think it's unfair to 255 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.320 look at it and say like this is it. This 256 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.159 is JavaScript for the rest of time. Like that is 257 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.879 not the case. JavaScript is going to last many, many 258 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.320 years in the future. In some ways, we're just at 259 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.600 the beginning. And I think it is incumbent on us, 260 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:47.840 if you know, if you care about this, if you're 261 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.159 working in this ecosystem, to try to simplify it, and 262 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:54.480 I think it can be simplified by addressing these problems 263 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.519 at the run time level. The comment about breaking changes 264 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.200 is important, and I think that's that's one of the 265 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:04.720 things with Dino two that that we are reevaluating. I mean, 266 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.919 Dino started out with with very much uh, a incompatible 267 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:14.360 API and set up to node and we have found 268 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.039 that to be problem you know, nice in many ways, 269 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.440 but but kind of problematic at scale. 270 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:25.120 Yeah, I read a bunch about like the the NPM compatibilities, 271 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.279 and yeah, some of the node compatibilities and some of 272 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:28.440 the things that we read. 273 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:29.879 Leading into this. 274 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.519 So how much of that is in Dino two And 275 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:36.440 how much of that did you just wind up bolting 276 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.080 into Dino one piece at a time. 277 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:43.000 I mean, uh, Dino Dino two is not like a 278 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:48.159 hard break or anything. It is just more and more 279 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.120 features kind of uh evolved into into Dino Dino one. 280 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.639 So yeah, I guess that's an important point to make 281 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.559 is that like anybody who's who's written a Dino program 282 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.519 like that is going to continue to work. There's no 283 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.039 there's no breaking changes, so to speak. In Dino two. 284 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.680 What has been happening over the last two years is 285 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.160 we started maybe eighteen months ago, kind of started, uh, 286 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:19.519 node built in APIs in Deno. The ability to import 287 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.880 node colon fs for example, and be able to read 288 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:28.039 files from from there, and also NPM support, the ability 289 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.960 to kind of pull in NPM packages kind of been 290 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:35.160 in a nicer, more elegant way, we think than than 291 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.359 in Node where you you kind of need a separate 292 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.920 package manager and kind of install these things into node 293 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.480 modules and Dino you can just reference NPM modules. You 294 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.039 can do imports in PM colon Chalk or n PM 295 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.000 colon Express, and it just kind of it just kind 296 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:52.160 of works like a kind. 297 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.200 Of I have to ask about this because I recall 298 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.920 when dn O one came out, what it was just 299 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.799 Dino back then one. When Dino came out, one of 300 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:10.160 the main selling points and a lot of people kind 301 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.920 of got all in The huff about it was that 302 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.680 it didn't actually have a package manager. It was, as 303 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.000 I recall it was, you want something, you just downloaded 304 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.640 it from the web. It arrives over HTTP, it gets cash, 305 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:25.839 so you don't need to download each and every time. 306 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.160 But it works just like your browser. You don't need 307 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:34.079 a package manager. And now all of a sudden turns 308 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.480 out that you actually do need a package manager. 309 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:45.720 So was your initial package manager? Okay, correct, Yeah, we 310 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.000 started with a So we started with acmascript modules. The 311 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.640 theory being mscript modules is the real module system, not 312 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:56.039 common JS, and that future JavaScript should be built on 313 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.200 top of Yes, m and the real it is the 314 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.200 real I mean it is literally specified in Oh. 315 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:09.160 Yeah, I guess to that degree. Yeah yeah. 316 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:12.599 And you know it's real in the sense that browsers. 317 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:15.759 You cannot require in a browser, but you can import 318 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:21.279 in a browser, and you can import h GP specifiers, 319 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.799 you can import hip colon slash slash blah blah blah 320 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.079 uh and kind of link linked to a JavaScript file 321 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.240 in a browser. So it is it is that is 322 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:36.559 the real module system in JavaScript. And so our our 323 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.279 thinking was, let's expose this to server side JavaScript, and 324 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.599 maybe this is sufficient for maybe this is all you need. 325 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:49.160 Maybe maybe HI, maybe links is all you need. Uh, 326 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.079 And we went pretty far with this. Our idea was like, 327 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.519 if we build up tooling around this and make this 328 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.880 uh ergonomic enough that we could have kind of a 329 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:02.960 decentralized module system where anybody can post code on any 330 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.759 website and you can just link it into your projects. 331 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.759 It's pretty great. It's pretty great for small scripts. 332 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.079 Why not get this is because it seemed like Go 333 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:16.759 had solved this problem better than anyone else has ever 334 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.480 solved it. And I think that Go modules had already 335 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.000 existed by the time that Dino came out, so very 336 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:28.079 much inspired I go, well, yeah, why not? That's because 337 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.000 the talk I watched it sounded like, mathematically, from a 338 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:36.240 graph perspective, the ghost system is literally perfect. You cannot 339 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.960 get better. You can get worse, you can make worse 340 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.759 trade offs, but you can't make better trade offs. 341 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:42.720 Uh. 342 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.359 We again, we stick to the standards. So there is 343 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:51.240 not a way to import a a GET repository in 344 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.839 the web browser. And so we were reluctant to add 345 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.640 something that that is not something that works in the browser, 346 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.599 because you know, the the axiom that we have is 347 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.680 that we want to narrow the gap between server side 348 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.200 JavaScript and browser JavaScript as much as possible. We want 349 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.920 to have the same APIs, we don't want to have 350 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.759 the same module system. And yeah, you could, you can 351 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.880 add that on there. But I think our original take 352 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:21.160 with with Dino was let's just stick to HGP specifiers 353 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:24.200 and see how far we can get with that, and 354 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:27.319 the yeah, I think we we essentially have the answer 355 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.680 now a couple of years later, which is that it 356 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.480 works for small scripts. It works really really great. If 357 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.720 you're just scripting, you know, hacking together a little build 358 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.240 script or or a little you know, file manipulation tool 359 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:43.359 or something. You have a single file, you can kind 360 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:46.359 of throw in some h GPS imports at the top. 361 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:50.200 You can kind of publish these things. It doesn't work 362 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.519 so well when you start having larger projects, multiple files, 363 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:58.039 multiple packages. You're you're kind of having these u r 364 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.359 ls kind of strewn all over your co base. They 365 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.559 don't necessary. Of course, a version string can be embedded 366 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:08.720 in a URL, but without a real kind of semantic 367 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.119 understanding of what versions of modules you have, you have 368 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.400 a lot of duplicated dependencies. You might have essentially the 369 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:20.279 same dependency with like a slightly different patch version, slightly 370 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.200 different URL kind of in your dependency tree. 371 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:27.839 Why not attack that at the standards body level, because 372 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.599 that seems that seems like a problem that is universal enough, 373 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.200 that has existed since the dawn of Unix, I think, 374 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.920 I mean, version numbers have been around I think since 375 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.559 certainly since people have had computers in their home. So 376 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.000 why why don't we have a standard at the at 377 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.240 the web level or you know, to attack that with 378 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.480 one of those with the one of those standards bodies. 379 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.839 I mean, there is essentially a standard for versions now semver, 380 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:01.799 and we do participate in the standards bodies, but standard 381 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.599 bodies are also very very slow moving and are not 382 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.200 necessarily something that you can You don't want to standardize 383 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.640 first and then implement like we we are. We are 384 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.599 trying to build software for humans here and like actually 385 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.880 actually solve problems, and so you know, only working in 386 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:23.359 the standards body is attended TC thirty nine A couple 387 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:25.400 of times, I have to tell you is the most 388 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.519 boring thing I've ever done in my entire life, and 389 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.079 just want to It's it's like that I'm trying to 390 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.480 ship software that people can actually use so yes, we do. 391 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.160 You know, Dino is a member of TC thirty nine, 392 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.039 and we do interact with standards bodies and we do 393 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.599 try to make JavaScript better in that sense. But there's 394 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:47.000 there's a pretty big gap between standards and implementation that 395 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:50.200 allows for a lot of creativity. 396 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.279 I have some paint drying that you can watch. 397 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.359 I kind of want to go back to the imports 398 00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:59.440 because you were talking about, yeah, pulling in through a 399 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.480 ht TP and you know, you get the library or 400 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:06.319 whatever you need, right and it loads it in and 401 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:08.880 you know, hopefully it's all set up properly for the 402 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:10.279 module import. 403 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:13.839 It. 404 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:15.640 What what's changed, right? 405 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.480 I mean I've read the blog post about HTTP imports 406 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.079 and I think that's where you're headed here, So you know, 407 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:24.880 I don't know if you had something to finish on 408 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:28.960 that thought and then yeah, where are you're going pretty im. 409 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:35.839 What's what's changed is is that it just like, first 410 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.279 of all, it doesn't work at scale. Like versions are 411 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.599 a problem. We have the problem of servers going down. 412 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:43.799 So if you have some dependency that has some other 413 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.400 dependency that is hosted on you know, a personal home server, 414 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:50.799 and that server goes away, then like the all the 415 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:56.319 transitive dependence uh dependence of that program of that module 416 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.279 uh die along with the server. So there's a reliability problem. 417 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.680 But I think the overarching problem is that when you're 418 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:08.119 dealing in kind of bigger projects, you have problems like, hey, 419 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.160 I need to use the A W S, S D K, 420 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:12.799 like I need to talk to S three or whatever. 421 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.359 And we really don't want to be in a situation 422 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.920 where you need to rewrite all of this software for Dino, 423 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:23.119 and that that gets very problematic at the scale. Right, 424 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.559 I need to use uh g r p C right 425 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:31.200 like we we we we cannot rewrite the world, uh, 426 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:34.960 given all all that has been done in JavaScript. Uh 427 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.039 So this this. 428 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.759 Is actually one of my big questions because it seems 429 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.359 like Node fills a niche and it's really imperfect, but 430 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.440 it's you know that that niche is full and there's 431 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.960 you know, there's there's do you know, and there's fun 432 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:58.279 and and I think there might have been another project 433 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.279 that maybe has already burned out, but you know, there's 434 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:07.000 there's these projects that have major advantages over Node, but 435 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:11.359 they're an incremental improvement. Node was a big bang and 436 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:17.680 the future advancements are like just another galaxy. Right, So 437 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.759 when you look at the ecosystem. I was actually really 438 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.480 excited back when Dino was Hardbreak because I thought, great, 439 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:29.240 this is a chance for us to get quality software 440 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.480 that's been thoughtfully written. That's not just everybody who's ever 441 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.000 touched a computer throwing something up on NPM. Because the 442 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.000 stuff that's on NPM, ninety nine percent of it is 443 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.720 garbage and there's like that small, small percentage that and 444 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.200 that's just like, that's just a preto distribution. I'm not 445 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:49.880 I'm not like trying to throw out a disc there. 446 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.200 Like most of the information in the world is wrong. 447 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:54.200 Most of the you know, most of anything is going 448 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.359 to tend towards the less useful and the hone, the specific, 449 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.240 the skilled, you know, like most athletes aren't Olympians, you know. 450 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.680 So like for me, the idea that we were going 451 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:07.319 to have a clean break from Note and we were 452 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:12.400 going to be rebuilding the core pieces just clean was 453 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:16.279 super exciting. And these seem to be in juxtaposition. You're saying, well, 454 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.480 we need to rewrite the engine, but actually we don't 455 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:24.039 need to rewrite the libraries. Where does that how do 456 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:28.640 those reconcile or why is why is that. Okay. 457 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:33.000 We added NPM support and node built in support to 458 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.599 be able to poll in modules, including ones that use 459 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:40.039 common JS and development patterns that we consider to be 460 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:49.079 antiquated or deprecated, and there is unfortunately an enormous amount 461 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:52.240 of complexity to be able to support common JAS in 462 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.880 an ECMA script only world. But that doesn't change kind 463 00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.319 of the overall philosophy of Dino, which is too level 464 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.920 up JavaScript. We don't allow our users to say use 465 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:09.000 require or to do kind of poor development practices. We 466 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:14.400 were really encouraging people to level up JavaScript. But being 467 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:19.680 able to pull in gRPC from NPM is absolutely necessary 468 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.559 when you need g RPC, because gRPC is preaking complicated 469 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:26.319 and like nobody is going to rewrite that. So in 470 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.000 a sense, like a hard break is kind of nice 471 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:32.279 until you realize that, like there is a lot, a 472 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:35.599 lot of a lot of infrastructure out there. The way 473 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:40.039 that we can encourage people to have better development practices 474 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:45.000 to write clean code is what we're doing on JSR, 475 00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:49.839 which is a new open source registry that is kind 476 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.240 of a superset of NPM. Like you can depend on 477 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:57.400 NPM modules in JSR, but we have something called the 478 00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.480 JSR score where you get a higher score if you 479 00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:05.000 follow better development practices. So it kind of allows people 480 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.720 to publish trashy code. And I agree with you, there's 481 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.359 kind of a power law distribution in terms of quality 482 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:13.960 of anything, and there is going to be a ton 483 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.720 of crap out there. So there's a ton of packages 484 00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:18.680 on JSR that are going to have like a zero 485 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.039 JSR score. But we tell you how to improve this. 486 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:27.039 Add JS docs to to your exports, use typescript, use 487 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:32.079 you know, various things to kind of encourage people to 488 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:40.240 up the quality of the code that they're distributing. And yeah, 489 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.000 I think this is I think this is the right tactic. 490 00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:48.759 Like we need to have kind of stepping stones into 491 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.920 the future. Again, JavaScript is going to be here for many, 492 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.519 many years, and the you know, no JS of twenty 493 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.400 nineteen is not the end state, Like I just I 494 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.240 firmly bel leave that because there's just too much economic 495 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:06.759 pressure to make JavaScript better. Uh so we need we 496 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.759 need kind of ways to incrementally improve this. And as 497 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.799 as we were saying before, Node has all sorts of 498 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.279 dependencies on existing software. It's very hard to fundamentally change 499 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.519 how Node operates. It's effectively impossible. You can kind of 500 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.799 tack on different things here and there, but you really 501 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:30.400 need a project like Dino to to kind of fundamentally 502 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:35.559 think about these things differently. But you know, it's it's 503 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.799 it's not a kind of binary story. Like we we do. 504 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:41.000 We have realized that we need to be able to 505 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.799 pull in and PM modules and be able to use 506 00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.079 SA g r PC or the A W S S 507 00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:50.160 d K. Otherwise people can't really develop real software in 508 00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:53.319 this thing. And again we are we are not doing 509 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:56.279 this as an academic exercise. We are trying to write 510 00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:57.720 software for real people. 511 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:01.519 So you said something, you said something that was really 512 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:05.359 interesting to me. You said that effectively, you can pull 513 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:11.759 any existing NPM module which obviously uses which was obviously 514 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:16.480 written or developed for note, which means it uses no practices, 515 00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:21.720 no structures, no the APIs, et cetera. But when I'm 516 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:29.720 developing in Dino, I'm intentionally restricted to the dno way, 517 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.200 which is the better way. 518 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.440 So kind of means I would call it the modern 519 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.160 javascripts like we modern Java encourage best practices. 520 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.119 Because it's standards standards. 521 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.640 It's not, yes, well, it's it's kind of modern standards 522 00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.559 and I'll touch on that in a second, because there 523 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.240 are certain things in Dino that I wish were part 524 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.240 of the standard, like the I wish that the dno 525 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.079 quote unquote standard library was the JavaScript standard library. And 526 00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:08.559 I'm if like, my biggest complaint against the JavaScript language 527 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.720 as it is is that it's really lacking a standard library, 528 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.400 and I would have loved for the Dino Standard Library 529 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:21.799 to be the germ or the root of that of 530 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.640 such a standard library. But going back to my previous 531 00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:30.000 question or point was that I didn't is a point 532 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.079 that I didn't understand or know before was is the 533 00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:38.279 fact that effectively you're you've created like two kind of 534 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:45.759 distinct runtime environments with under one hood. There's like the dirty, 535 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.319 scruffy environment that you need to support for the existing 536 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:55.039 note modules, and there's the cleaner, nicer environment where you 537 00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:58.759 write your own code so you you can the note 538 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:04.920 modules that you can do things that you can't intentionally do. 539 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.440 That's really interesting and something that I didn't realize. 540 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:12.920 So, for example, the node modules that you import might 541 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.599 use common JS, of course, but they might also have 542 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.640 like a process global. Process global is not a web standard, 543 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:24.799 so we avoid having the process global in Dino. So 544 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:28.079 in your kind of top level script that you're writing, 545 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.640 although you might pull in express which might very well 546 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:37.359 call process, and the top level script will not be 547 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:41.920 able to call process and without an explicit node call 548 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.039 and process import if you're following. 549 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:50.000 So you've created a sort of node virtualization environment within 550 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:55.160 Dino and you're effectively running the node NPM modules within 551 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.680 that again quote unquote node virtualization environment sort of. 552 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:05.480 Yeah, I mean virtualization environment is suggests that it's uh yeah, 553 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.599 suggest that it's virtualized in some sense. So I wouldn't 554 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.159 call it that, but there there is uh uh yeah, 555 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.199 there's a there's all sorts of of kind of trickery 556 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:18.679 that that we do to make this uh uh kind 557 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:19.800 of hidden from the user. 558 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.960 And how compative? How compatible is it? I what level 559 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.280 of compatibility were you able to achieve? I mean, it 560 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.760 can't can't have been easy. Let's put this one. 561 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.119 It's it was not easy. It took us a very 562 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.440 long time, a lot of a lot of engineering effort. 563 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.880 The level of compatibility is fantastic, it's it's very good. 564 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.360 We've been working on this, like I said, for for 565 00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.920 about two years now. There's always going to be a 566 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.400 long tail of incompatibilities, and we consider any module that 567 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.760 we can't run a bug and we will fix it. 568 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:56.400 But it's really really good these days. So Dino can 569 00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:01.239 even import node modules that have tension modules to them, 570 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.800 like compiled extension modules that use NAPI for example. So 571 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:10.280 so Dino implements all of the NAPI binding layers. It's 572 00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.360 it goes very deep, and it's it's you know, our 573 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.679 goal is is uh, you know, let's let's call it 574 00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:20.639 four nines of compatibility or something like that. There's always 575 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.480 going to be a tail of incompatibility, but like essentially 576 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:27.920 anything that you pull in and should work out of 577 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:28.599 the box. 578 00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:32.320 And yeah, you know these days, the big, the big 579 00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:36.480 problem with projects like that from my own experience is that, 580 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:41.199 like you said, like everybody uses this, like ninety something 581 00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:44.559 percent of the modules that people use are essentially the 582 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:48.760 same holders. Like there are certain small subset of modules 583 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.960 that are the most popular by far, but the problem 584 00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:57.719 is that a lot of organizations use another module in 585 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:02.039 addition to that. So the question always is am I 586 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.000 not going to find myself stuck because some weird module 587 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.880 that some developer that worked here five years ago imported 588 00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:13.599 and I'm dependent on and it does something really really 589 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.360 out there, and the environment as a problem with it. 590 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:24.760 I mean, it's always possible. But the compatibility layer happens 591 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.199 at kind of the node API boundary. 592 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:27.480 Right. 593 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.800 Note has all of these built in modules like fs API, 594 00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.039 and Dino implements these very very deeply and well, and 595 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.880 so I would expect even random side modules are going 596 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:42.639 to work. But like I said, there's a long tail 597 00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:47.719 and there will be incompatibilities. But yeah, I would encourage 598 00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:50.360 people to try it. You will be shocked. You can 599 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:54.639 import essentially anything. You can take next JS and you know, 600 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:59.119 create next gs app and do Dino run dev in 601 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.119 there and this well, this this works right, So Dino 602 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:06.559 can can take any package, chase on node first project 603 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.400 and run this natively in Dino as well. 604 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:15.079 And the other question that I have is again one 605 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.039 of the one of the defining aspects of Dino when 606 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:26.000 it came out was the security and the sandbox model. 607 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:29.639 The fact that you your your sandbox by default and 608 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:34.079 you open up certain aspects and you only open up 609 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.800 those aspects that you actually need. Well, again, my question 610 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:41.639 then becomes do you run into issues with that when 611 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:45.880 you're using arbitrary node modules that have no concept of 612 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.239 this security sandbox and if so, how do you deal 613 00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:49.559 with it? 614 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:52.920 Yeah, so I haven't haven't mentioned that, but that that 615 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.840 is indeed one of the kind of flagship things that 616 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.480 we were trying to do with Dino is like the 617 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.920 web browser or and and you know, this goal of 618 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.679 kind of narrowing the gap between server side JavaScript and 619 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.639 browser JavaScript. Browser JavaScript is super secure, right. You're running 620 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:11.119 untrusted code day in and day out in every single 621 00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:15.000 tabu and the V eight VM provides a super secure 622 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:19.000 sandbox for this. And uh in Node uh. You know, 623 00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:23.119 we were more interested in in what we could do, uh, 624 00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:26.239 rather than thinking too much about whether we should be 625 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.519 doing it. You know, we we uh we uh we 626 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.400 just I wasn't thinking about security back then. I was 627 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:39.719 thinking more let's put it exactly thanks, yes, And I think, 628 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.239 you know, now, with with with some years to to 629 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:46.599 think back on that, I think, uh uh, being able 630 00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:50.280 to utilize the secure sandbox that v e provides is 631 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.719 it should be should be mentioned. V eight is the 632 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:57.199 is the the real workhorse here behind Dino and Node. 633 00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:57.480 Uh. 634 00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:59.280 And in some ways you can think of Dino en 635 00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:02.440 Node as kind of you know, if VIGHT is the 636 00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:05.920 Linux kernel. Then then Node and Dino are kind of 637 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:11.800 like two Lenux distributions, right, two different distributions of VIGHT. Anyway, 638 00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:14.639 we in Dino, we do use the security of the 639 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:18.159 v eight VM, and by default, when you run a program, 640 00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:21.960 whether it has NPM modules or not, you have zero 641 00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.320 access to the system. You cannot make network connections, you 642 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.360 cannot read from the file system, you cannot see environment variables. 643 00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:33.599 It doesn't matter if your NPM dependencies or dependencies of dependencies, 644 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:37.400 call process m whatever. All of that is gated in 645 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.480 Dino because again we've re implemented all of this, and 646 00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.880 so that extends to the NPM modules and you are 647 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:49.719 able to gate access a pretty fine grain layer in 648 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:54.599 the user space at the VIGHT level and kind of 649 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.079 say say whether whether things are are able to access, 650 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.760 say the file system, or if they're if they're able 651 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.639 to make outbounds network connections or listen on a socket. 652 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:06.599 All of that is controllable, and it does extend to 653 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:10.079 the compatibility layer. It's a very nice aspect of the system. 654 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:12.679 You kind of have to provide a few more flags, 655 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:16.119 and it's a little slightly less ergonomic because like yeah, 656 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.559 in many cases you do want to turn off the 657 00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:22.000 sandbox right if you're running you know, if you're writing 658 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.880 a script like it's probably going to interact with the 659 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.599 file system, it's probably going to interact with the network. 660 00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:29.880 But you know, there are many cases where maybe you're 661 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:32.079 just writing a proxy server and you really don't need 662 00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:35.039 access to the file system at all. It's very nice 663 00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:36.920 to have that at your fingertips and be able to 664 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:38.719 gain that access. 665 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:43.000 The cool thing about it, though, is so what I'm 666 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:48.840 understanding from you is you can start fully sandbox open 667 00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.880 whatever features you know you need, then start using the 668 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:57.760 various snowed modules, and then if something breaks because of 669 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.480 security because of the scent box, and I assume that 670 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.840 there's the appropriate notification for that. So you are aware 671 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:09.280 that you know this module try to do something that 672 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:13.480 it's not allowed to do. You can then decide whether 673 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:18.599 or not you know you actually need that module and 674 00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:23.760 are willing to grant that security aspect to it. And conversely, 675 00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:28.360 you might ask yourself, hey, why is module that's supposed 676 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:33.039 to be doing networking want access to my filesystem? You know, 677 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.679 maybe I should be more suspicious about what it's actually doing. 678 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:40.800 How do you guys, feel about a screen share? I 679 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.079 guess this is a podcast, so probably, well. 680 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.559 You can screenshare for for we can do a quick 681 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:49.800 screen share. But you know our listeners obviously are losing out. 682 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:51.639 Well, do you want descriptive reading? 683 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.119 Let's let me see if this works. Well, well, let 684 00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.000 me see. Can I share a window? Yes, let me 685 00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:02.480 just pull up a terminal here a. 686 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:04.679 J I want descriptive singing. 687 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:06.039 Can you see this. 688 00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:10.000 Listening along at home? We can't see anything yet, but 689 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:11.239 now it's a terminal. 690 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.000 Chuck, be careful what you asked for? 691 00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:18.760 A right, so let me just whatever tests dot t 692 00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:21.599 S and and let me just just show you he's. 693 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.840 Using them, by the way, not neo VIM like a 694 00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:25.960 nube for those listening. 695 00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:29.719 This is this is actually but whatever. 696 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.280 Yeah, the I am at the top was a dead giveaway. 697 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.000 And Alias did his VIM like a professional, not like 698 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:40.199 a nube. By the way. 699 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.639 Let's say we wanted to make so I'm console logging hello, 700 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:47.039 And let's just say I want to like make the 701 00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:50.039 background color red? Okay, And and I think how you 702 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.800 do this? In Node you often use the chalk library, 703 00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.840 so you can import chalk from and in Dino you 704 00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:00.800 just do chalk okay, and then you can say something. 705 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.239 Like chalk dot so it's npm chalk to tell it 706 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:05.880 that it's an NPMD. 707 00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:09.360 That's that's right. So you can do something something like this. 708 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:15.039 Hopefully this works. So DINO tests and what you see 709 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.360 here is that it says DINO requests environment access to 710 00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.159 force color. Chalk is reading environment variables and so I 711 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:28.039 can I can say like uh no and deny that. No, 712 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:29.880 you can't read that. No you can't read that. No 713 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.639 you can't read that. You can't read that, can't read that, 714 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:36.400 and it logs it not in color. Let let me 715 00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:41.320 let me try this again with allow muh or just 716 00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.639 dash e to allow environment variables. And now chalk has 717 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:51.719 has operated correctly. So yeah, I mean a really simple demo, 718 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:56.880 of course, but it's chalk was not built for security sandboxes, 719 00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:59.280 like it knows nothing about this. But you know, through 720 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.559 through our patibility layer, we are gating access to the 721 00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:05.800 environment variables. And maybe you didn't know that chalk was 722 00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:09.400 was actually accessing those things, and you decide that like, hey, 723 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.360 actually I don't want to use chalk. I don't want 724 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:13.960 to expose my environment variables. Let me do kind of 725 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.280 the Dino first way of doing this, and in fact 726 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.920 the Web standard way by putting ah, you know percent 727 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:25.760 see there and doing background color red is actually the 728 00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:29.119 you know Web standard d slash Dino first way of 729 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.280 doing this. This is how you do it in the browser. 730 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:34.719 And now you don't Now you don't need any any 731 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:38.559 control access you can you can just use use the 732 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:42.199 CSS directly. Here are you following me? 733 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:43.159 Yep? 734 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.880 Yeah, for those of you that are listening along, you 735 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:49.760 can actually pass a CSS style as a string the 736 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:54.239 same way you would put it in HTML as a 737 00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.519 an argument in console dot log to fill in a 738 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:00.880 percent c. So you you have a string with three 739 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:03.159 percent CS and then you can add three styles. 740 00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:05.800 As I recall, you can also do the same thing 741 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.320 in the browser devle. 742 00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.559 Yeah, yeah, this is we We do not invent APIs, 743 00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:15.320 so this is not like a DNOE thing to do where. 744 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.199 Yeah, but for those are curious, the same way that 745 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:23.440 you can use colors in your console logs inside the 746 00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:28.320 browsers work. Indno, the exact same way. That's that's the 747 00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:29.000 basic Yeah. 748 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.599 But I think the main point there is is that 749 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:35.400 like chalk does read environment variables. Probably knew, but nobody 750 00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.639 knew that, but maybe you're sensitive to that, maybe you 751 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.960 have secrets in your environment variables, and maybe you don't 752 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.159 want to allow access to that. Chalk's a pretty simple example, 753 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:47.920 but this kind of extends to any NPM module and 754 00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:51.119 so you can kind of see what these NPM modules 755 00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:54.400 are doing and decide specifically if you want to allow 756 00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:58.880 access to that. So, yes, the security sand boxes is still, uh, 757 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:00.800 you know, a primary thing, and you know, and we 758 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:01.800 think pretty important. 759 00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:05.599 What I really like about this is the fact that, 760 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.000 you know, we've been in the context of security. There's 761 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:13.119 been a lot of talks about the problem the security 762 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:19.039 issues when people like take control over existing projects and 763 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.079 insert malware into them, kind of creating all sorts of 764 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:27.360 supply chain issues. And the Dino approach is a very 765 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:33.679 interesting safeguard against that, because if somebody introduces malware into 766 00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:36.360 an existing package to do something that it isn't supposed 767 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:39.559 to do, there's a good chance that the existing sandbox 768 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:42.679 could prevent it from actually doing that, and all of 769 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.760 a sudden you'll get that error and the thing won't 770 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.679 maybe won't work, but you haven't introduced a security vulnerability. 771 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.079 Yeah, it gets really problematic when it comes to like 772 00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:57.599 NPM post install scripts. Like anytime you add a dependency, 773 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:00.960 like any dependencies of that n n C are going 774 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.960 to run their post insult script. You're you're essentially in 775 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.920 in node. Anytime you add a dependency, you are running 776 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.320 untrusted code from random people on the internet on your 777 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:14.559 computer without any sort of sandbox. Like it's very problematic. 778 00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.599 Plug plug for socket. I use socket because I don't 779 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.119 I don't. I don't want to be running untrusted code 780 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.760 from random people on the internet when I have client 781 00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:32.800 work and AWS keys and you know that sort of thing. 782 00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:34.119 I forget what their website is. 783 00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:35.679 It's socket dot dev. 784 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:40.440 Socket dot dev. Yeah, socket and that that links in. 785 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:42.880 I think they have GitHub actions that will link in 786 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.559 on push to monitor your package, Jason, as well as 787 00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.639 uh an alias for NPM so that it hooks into 788 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.840 the NPM install and make sure that malware doesn't run 789 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:54.400 on your computer. 790 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:56.800 Yeah, and we and we did have for us on 791 00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.360 our show back. We should probably have them on again. 792 00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.159 I'm going to change our direction just a little bit here, 793 00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:07.320 unless there's something else you want to add, Ryan before 794 00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:07.760 I do that. 795 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:11.199 No, no, So, so one of the other things that. 796 00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:17.239 We're seeing come through is JSR and so I wanted 797 00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:19.800 to talk about that from a bit too. Here we've 798 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.519 already been going for fifty minutes and I want to 799 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.719 be mindful of your your time. But yeah, it looks 800 00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:27.559 like an interesting project. Do you kind of want to 801 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:29.320 set the stage for what it is and why you 802 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:30.960 even created it? 803 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:35.519 Yeah, like post gethub acquisition and PM is like not 804 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.880 evolving at all, and you know it's kind of the 805 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:44.280 central place where you share JavaScript code. Like this is 806 00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:49.480 pretty unfortunate. Like JavaScript is a very vibrant world with 807 00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.360 all sorts of changes happening. You know, we're moving to typescript, 808 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:56.960 we're moving to ESM, and like the place where everybody 809 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.920 is sharing code has is effectively dead. There's all sorts 810 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:08.199 of security problems as we were just discussing. Uh, it's just, uh, 811 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:11.559 it's not fun. Like have you I'm sure everybody here 812 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:15.119 is published an NPM module. You tried publishing like something 813 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:18.079 that's written typescripts? Have you dealt with you know, common 814 00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:21.079 JS E s M, Like what what sort of output 815 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.559 do you have? How does the exports thing work? Like 816 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:27.920 it just gets really complicated and again kind of gets 817 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:32.119 gets away from this JavaScript being for the children like this. 818 00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:34.119 This should be a toy like language. This is a 819 00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.440 scripting language. We are not programming in C plus plus 820 00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:39.880 like it should be. It should be fun and nice, 821 00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.199 and the registry could be supporting us so much more here. 822 00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.440 And as I said, when we were discussing it GP specifiers, 823 00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:50.559 you know, we kind of come around to this, this 824 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:56.639 realization that a centralized registry is actually very important for reliability. 825 00:49:56.679 --> 00:50:01.039 You can't have things hosted on random servers. So we 826 00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:04.079 we have created JSR. It is open source, unlike the 827 00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:08.400 NPM registry. It is meant to be a community service 828 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:13.239 and is managed by me right now effectively in the 829 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.599 Dino company. But we intended this to be a community 830 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:21.639 service and open source and community driven. And it is 831 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:26.039 just delightful to use. If you have ever published to NPM, 832 00:50:26.119 --> 00:50:29.639 you will immediately see the benefit. Like you can just 833 00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:33.760 publish your typescript. It just works. It is really meant 834 00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:38.039 for a world in which there are multiple JavaScript run times. 835 00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:41.639 The Node Package Manager is meant for a world in 836 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.239 which there is Node. But in twenty twenty four, we've 837 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.559 got Node, we've got Dino, we've got bun, we've got 838 00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:51.880 cloud flayer workers we've got the browsers right, there's many 839 00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.760 different places where you're going to be running JavaScript, and 840 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:57.920 it's important for a registry to support all of those 841 00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:02.599 targets that you might be writing JavaScript for. It's very 842 00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:05.599 important for it to support Typescript. And we've just got 843 00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:10.599 all sorts of useful features in there that are attempting 844 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:13.719 to level up JavaScript. And I think I mentioned earlier 845 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:18.000 the JSR score, where you know, we give you a 846 00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.079 kind of a point score for your package, and it's 847 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.559 probably going to start off with zero percent because most 848 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.760 stuff is crap. That's fine, But in order to get 849 00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:31.440 towards one hundred percent score on your GSR score, you 850 00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:35.639 have to implement things like having a description for your package, 851 00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:43.840 making sure that there's documentation for it. Test coverage is 852 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.039 not one of the is not one of the things 853 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:50.079 that add factors into the JSR score, because it's really 854 00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:54.440 hard to decide in general, across multiple run times, how 855 00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:56.079 what sort of test coverage you have? 856 00:51:58.480 --> 00:51:58.960 One thing? 857 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:03.639 Oh, go ahead, well I was going to say, suffice 858 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:05.079 it to say that that we put a lot of 859 00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:09.599 thought into into js R and uh uh yeah, I 860 00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:12.320 I I really think this is this is where we 861 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:16.519 should be having the vibrant sharing of code in the future. 862 00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:18.360 It's it's it's delightful to use. 863 00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:23.480 So one thing that very much concerns me is that 864 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:27.800 code should not be vibrant. Codes should be dull and 865 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:32.400 dead right. And most of these registries, and all of 866 00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:35.440 them that I'm aware of, kind of play off of 867 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.280 the you know, it's it's it's kind of like social media, 868 00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:44.320 and so the idea is to update and update and update, 869 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.239 and so what ends up happening is that what's always 870 00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:51.320 on the homepage are the the modules are that are 871 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:54.599 the most insecure, the least well engineered, have the most 872 00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:58.920 bugs because they're the modules that are just always changing 873 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:02.239 or or being written new and will never be finished. 874 00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.880 And then the code that is mature and stable, the 875 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:10.280 code that you wish that you would find, ends up 876 00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:13.440 being at the bottom of the pile where you'll never 877 00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:15.599 find it. And then these modules that are just making 878 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:20.000 constant changes are the ones that become popular. Where's the 879 00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:22.480 modules that are the diamonds and the rough that have 880 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:25.280 three stars are the ones that are like, it's got 881 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:29.199 full documentation, it's type that it's simple code. 882 00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.400 I'm not sure I agree. A J. I mean, people 883 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.119 are still using express, and Express is not is effects 884 00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:37.440 supposedly dead. 885 00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:41.840 So well, okay, once once a module is carved out 886 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.360 a niche that it's game over, right, that people are 887 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.840 always going to use that module forever. But I'm talking 888 00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:53.960 about the pattern of giving immature and buggy code priority 889 00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:58.280 because it's the code that's always being updated as opposed 890 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:02.760 to stable code that works. Well, you know, do you 891 00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:05.519 are you a do you see that as a problem 892 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:09.119 and do you have a way to promote code that 893 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:13.920 is stable overcode that changes frequently or is new. 894 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.199 I also kind of disagree with the premise. I mean, 895 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:24.119 I think you know, in some sense the I agree 896 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:28.400 with you that like people should strive to get their 897 00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:31.159 packages to a final state, and that the code should 898 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:38.239 be boring and not interesting. But obviously the technology, the 899 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:42.719 software stack of of humanity is growing and new things 900 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.119 need to be developed and they will need to be 901 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.119 iterated on, and they need a place to share those things. 902 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.880 Yes, I agree with that, but for example, once you've 903 00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:58.679 implemented a Jason parser, you're done now. Thankfully a Jason 904 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:01.039 parser is so boring it gets to be in the 905 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:05.280 standard library. But there are many things where once you've 906 00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:09.119 implemented them, they are done. If you are publishing updates, 907 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:13.679 that should reflect negatively upon the package score, because you 908 00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:18.000 should not be publishing updates to something that can be 909 00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:20.159 complete and having. 910 00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.719 Projects software right, not everything. 911 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:26.440 Kitchen sinking, yes, but if you're kitchen sinking something, if 912 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.840 you're building a framework where every week you're adding a 913 00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:31.440 new feature and another feature and another feature, another feature, 914 00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:34.119 then you're just creating kitchen sink blot right. 915 00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:35.679 Maybe. 916 00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:38.840 I mean you may have a tool that that's what 917 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:42.199 people want. I mean that there are systems. I mean 918 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.480 take Ruby on Rails for example. A lot of people 919 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:47.960 love working in it and it kind of kitchen sink stuff, 920 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:50.760 and they keep adding things to it that do more jobs. 921 00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:55.679 So, I mean, the web standard is changing all the time. 922 00:55:56.719 --> 00:55:57.639 It has to adapt to that. 923 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:01.079 You probably don't want the kitchen sink logging library, and 924 00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:03.719 we saw where that leads when it when that happens, 925 00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:07.920 But you probably do want to kitchen sink something like 926 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:11.559 like next JS maybe or or Ruby on Rails. It 927 00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:14.639 kind of depends on where you are. 928 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.159 I'm just saying that curating this in that way is 929 00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.880 a huge job, and I don't it doesn't sound like 930 00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:26.480 Ryan and the other folks that Dino are necessarily I mean, 931 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:29.199 they see some of the problems, I'm sure, but I 932 00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:31.039 don't know if they're interested in solving that problem. 933 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:35.800 I'm saying heuristically, not always favoring the things that are 934 00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:40.559 buggy and changing constantly, having some like yeah, just not 935 00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:43.360 giving superpowers to the people that are just publishing weekly 936 00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:46.599 And I'm sure so many company companies. But you are 937 00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:48.639 aware of this, and you're update hacking. 938 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:53.960 Like publishing should be hard so that you can't change it, 939 00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:56.519 Like I don't think things should be unnecessarily hard. 940 00:56:56.559 --> 00:56:59.800 No, no, no, no, no, I'm I'm saying give it. So 941 00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:05.000 for example, you go on your website packages recently updated, new. 942 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:09.639 I see, I don't want packages that are being updated 943 00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:12.519 all the time, and I probably don't want packages that 944 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:16.480 are being new unless they're pretty close to completely. 945 00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:18.719 But I don't. I mean, that's just something for the homepage. 946 00:57:18.760 --> 00:57:22.079 I don't think this is the primary mechanism for finding stuff. 947 00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:26.480 I mean, what is the primary mechanism for finding stuff? 948 00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:28.639 Because it seems to me like for an MPM, the 949 00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:31.000 primary mechanism for finding stuff is Google. 950 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:34.280 So yeah, yeah, and I think the same as is 951 00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:36.920 true for JSR. I mean, we do have a search there. 952 00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:41.320 I wouldn't call it perfect yet, And the JSR score 953 00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:45.280 that I mentioned, which again encourages boring coding practices, like 954 00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:50.400 you know, just have some docs, you know, like factors 955 00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:54.960 into the search results. But like, ultimately, like a registry 956 00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:57.440 is going to have lots and lots of stuff on it, 957 00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:59.960 and you're not going to necessarily like find a list 958 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:01.880 of all the things that are on the pack, Like 959 00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:03.960 you can't have a list of all the things on 960 00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:06.719 NPM and scroll through it and find it. It doesn't 961 00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:10.199 matter whether it's sorted by new or not. You're going 962 00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:11.639 to pull it in terms. 963 00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:15.079 Of search engine optimization, right, Like if you want to 964 00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:17.880 hack the system, you can just publish updates. You can 965 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:20.679 just bump the minor version and basically do nothing and 966 00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:23.440 it'll show up on the homepage. Google ranks the NPM 967 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:27.920 homepage higher than it ranks other pages on the internet. Right. 968 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:31.239 So there is and you're publishing. I'm sure you have 969 00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:35.559 whether it's a like an XML feed or whether it's 970 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:37.960 you know, some sort of Jason feed, but there's I 971 00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.719 assume there's something that you're publishing where you're probably putting 972 00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:45.480 out to search engines and whatnot in things that the 973 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:47.920 things that are updated frequently are the things that are 974 00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:53.280 going to get the highest like they're going to get 975 00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:56.800 the benefits. 976 00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:58.840 That you're worried that the that the kind of new 977 00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:03.960 recently update call on the JSR homepage like impacts the 978 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:08.920 se O of of like crappy packages. I mean, yeah, okay, sure. 979 00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.920 I would like to I'd like to pull us back 980 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:15.599 to before we finish, I'd like to bring up another 981 00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:19.679 another another topic that you mentioned several times. And it's 982 00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:23.920 also interesting because Node recently did a change regarding that 983 00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:26.880 as well, which is Tipescript support. I mean, like the 984 00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:29.960 big one of the one of the biggest things. Sorry, Chuck, 985 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:31.719 you wanted to say something, I just. 986 00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:35.599 Want well, I wanted to just ask one other question 987 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.760 about jsright here, real quick, go for it. I mean, 988 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:40.639 because because you know, we were talking about the quality 989 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:43.079 of the packages and things like that, But my question 990 00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:44.239 is how do you use it? 991 00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:45.239 Right? Is it? 992 00:59:45.320 --> 00:59:47.559 Is it the import maps and the imports like we're 993 00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:51.159 talking about before. Is there a cl I was going 994 00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.079 to say c l I, but a command line interface 995 00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:56.719 for those who aren't t l A three letter acronym. Yeah, 996 00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.760 uh savvy. And is it only for public? Is it 997 01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:02.639 for pulling them into my prep? 998 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:03.199 Yeah? 999 01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:05.320 How does this all kind of hang together so that 1000 01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:06.000 I can go? 1001 01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:11.480 Okay, JSR looks to me better in some cases than NPM. 1002 01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:15.719 It's it is better than NBM in every in every situation. 1003 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:21.360 I guarantee you it is fantastic. You can use this. 1004 01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:24.840 So if you're using Dno, it's it's like we have 1005 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:27.800 native support for JSR, so you can just do import 1006 01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:31.559 JSR colon h your package, just like you can do 1007 01:00:31.719 --> 01:00:35.159 import NPM call in your package. Right, It's it's a 1008 01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:38.920 u r L in the system. And so Dino has 1009 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:41.519 native support for this. And you can of course put 1010 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:44.480 JSR specifiers into your import maps and turn them into 1011 01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:48.480 bear specifiers if you know what those words mean. If 1012 01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:55.079 you're using Node or bun, you can use the NPM 1013 01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:58.679 compatibility layer like behind the scenes. All of these packages 1014 01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:02.800 are actually exposed as an MPM registry NPM dot JSR 1015 01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:06.800 dot io, and you can add them to your package. Jason, 1016 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:12.519 So there is really great docs on on JSR, and 1017 01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:16.800 I'll just drop you a link here, but on each 1018 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:19.679 of the package pages you should see like a little 1019 01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:22.400 usage statement and it will tell you the commands to 1020 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:25.440 run to add it to your to your package Jason. 1021 01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:31.000 But yeah, the support gets really really good when when 1022 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:33.840 it comes to Dino where where it all is super 1023 01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:37.199 smooth and requires no extra commands. 1024 01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:39.360 Awesome. 1025 01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:39.639 Yeah. 1026 01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:42.639 I just put that into the comment on Facebook, YouTube 1027 01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:45.480 a Twitch as well, so people can find it if 1028 01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:46.960 you're watching there. 1029 01:01:47.800 --> 01:01:49.480 And we'll try and get it into the show notes 1030 01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:49.880 as well. 1031 01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:52.280 But yeah, I mean that that was what I wanted 1032 01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:54.800 to know, is, hey, it looks like a great experience. 1033 01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:57.559 So yeah, and this is ready now right. This isn't 1034 01:01:57.639 --> 01:01:59.679 something you're announcing and saying, hey, try it a couple 1035 01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:01.159 of weeks. It's out there. 1036 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:05.960 It's done, done and done. No, we're still iterating on it. 1037 01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:08.639 But I think it is like ninety nine percent done, 1038 01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:10.519 Like it's working. It's fantastic. 1039 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:14.679 Well, if I understood correctly, Dno. Two is just an iteration. 1040 01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:17.639 It's like, do you know one point eighty seven? But 1041 01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:19.519 at some point you just need to go to two? 1042 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:19.800 Right. 1043 01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.280 It sounds like there's a few milestones, but it's not right. 1044 01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:25.239 It's not a rewrite. 1045 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:29.320 It's not a rewrite, And the main thing is is 1046 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:34.519 that this NPM support is really you know, at four 1047 01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:37.880 nines of completeness. It's like complete. You have this option 1048 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.960 of JSR available to you if you want to have 1049 01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:49.039 the leveled up version of NPM. Yeah, I think it's 1050 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:51.280 you know, there's other aspects of this that we haven't 1051 01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:55.519 gotten into, like the long term support. Dino is very 1052 01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:58.519 stable at this point. We are not changing anything. We're 1053 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:02.199 introducing long term support in Dino two, and we also 1054 01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:05.440 have workspaces in Dino two, but that you know, it's 1055 01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:08.400 kind of getting you know, two is about scaling up 1056 01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:13.119 projects to to you know, relatively large code bases where 1057 01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:15.639 you know, I think Dino started with like really great 1058 01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:18.360 for single files, and you know, what we're trying to 1059 01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.199 do is keep it, keep Dino great for single files, 1060 01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:24.159 but make sure that it scales up to two projects 1061 01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:26.360 that you know, have one hundred thousand lines of JavaScript 1062 01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:30.039 in it, and that includes the NPM support, that includes 1063 01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:34.360 and JSR that that means, the long term support and 1064 01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:38.000 workspaces all all kind of factor into this like scaling 1065 01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:40.239 up of Dino. 1066 01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.119 So I would really like to sneak in one or 1067 01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:46.679 maybe two things before we wrap up. Let's see if 1068 01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:49.400 I if we manage it. So the one of them 1069 01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:52.480 I started to mention was the type of support like 1070 01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:56.800 the as you said initially, you in a kind of 1071 01:03:56.840 --> 01:04:00.159 similar way to how you recognized early on the the 1072 01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:04.280 role that JavaScript could and should play on the service side. 1073 01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:08.199 You realize early on that the market was heading towards typescript, 1074 01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:12.559 and in fact, like I think the majority of JavaScript 1075 01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:18.719 code in the enterprise is actually typescript, and you introduced 1076 01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:27.360 like effect built in support like from the get go. Interestingly, 1077 01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:32.320 now know that's just introduced a sort of support for 1078 01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:37.519 typescript as well, by effectively stripping out all of the 1079 01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:42.039 type information, essentially treating it by comments and running what's left. 1080 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.519 Is that similar to what you do or do you 1081 01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:46.639 do something different? 1082 01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.280 It's similar to what we do when you run typescript 1083 01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:55.800 and Dino we very nice attribute of typescript is that 1084 01:04:55.880 --> 01:05:00.920 it's a super cheap operation to transpile that into JavaScript. 1085 01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:02.920 You don't really have to understand the types, you just 1086 01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:06.639 strip them out, and that's how Dino runs things. Dino 1087 01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:11.199 also has the type checker, the Typescript type checker in it, 1088 01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:14.320 so if you run Dino check, it will check your 1089 01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:18.119 types and the typeescript is kind of fully baked in 1090 01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:23.599 through the system, through the linter, through JSR, the you know, 1091 01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:26.239 Dino tries very hard to make it so you don't 1092 01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:31.119 need to write any configuration files. No, no ts configured necessary. 1093 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:35.199 So the typescript goes much deeper in Dino. But yeah, indeed, 1094 01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:40.320 uh is note is picking up on some of the 1095 01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:41.800 features of Dino. 1096 01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:50.320 So so because you're effectively just stripping out the typescript, 1097 01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:54.639 you really don't care about the typescript configuration because I 1098 01:05:54.679 --> 01:06:00.559 think it it was uh Matteo Colina you probably know 1099 01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:04.800 once said that typescript is not a language, it's a 1100 01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:08.760 universe of languages, because you could really specify what kind 1101 01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:12.199 of language it is via your TS can figure. Uh, 1102 01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:15.159 And there's certain then there's certainly truth in that you 1103 01:06:15.199 --> 01:06:18.559 can really modify the way the typeescript as the language works. 1104 01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:21.679 But I guess that if you're just stripping out the 1105 01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:25.519 types and effectively just ignoring them, then it all all 1106 01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:27.480 boils down to the exact same thing. 1107 01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:33.119 Uh, There's there's a bit to unpack there. So, first 1108 01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:36.280 of all, Dino does not just stript types. Dono understands 1109 01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:38.199 the types deeply, do you know, do you know has 1110 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:43.039 deep type script support in it as does js R. 1111 01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:46.719 Like this, this typeescript support goes goes very deep in 1112 01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:50.960 the system, so much much more so than just stripping types. Ah, 1113 01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:55.800 It's true that you can configure typescript in different ways, 1114 01:06:55.840 --> 01:07:01.280 and typescripts with different configuration code bases with configurations can 1115 01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:06.440 be incompatible with each other. We strongly believe that typescript 1116 01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:11.840 should move to a single configuration, single language world where 1117 01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:15.960 you can actually distribute typescript as the primary code, not 1118 01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:20.960 the typeescript type script JavaScript. And that is one of 1119 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:24.719 the main features of JSR. You literally write the typescript 1120 01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:28.480 and distribute the typeescript because we believe that run times 1121 01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:32.360 like Dino and Node in the future, we'll be able 1122 01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:35.880 to understand that typescript directly. And so we believe in 1123 01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:42.000 linking typescript together and having a single configuration. And I 1124 01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:45.519 think a lot of people people might think that there's 1125 01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:48.599 a world of possibilities in all of these possibilities. There 1126 01:07:48.679 --> 01:07:50.920 is a world of possibilities with typescript. You can you 1127 01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:53.000 can set all sorts of things, but not all of 1128 01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.840 those possibilities are equally ranked. Okay, there is a good 1129 01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:01.840 way to configure Typescript and pushes you towards that configuration 1130 01:08:02.280 --> 01:08:05.239 as is JSR. That's part of the JSR score. So 1131 01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:12.960 we encourage the default best practices in typescript, and we 1132 01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:18.439 encourage using Typescript as a primary language and distributing typescript 1133 01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:23.079 and linking Typescript to typescript and not introducing always this 1134 01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:28.399 compile step. I think this is unnecessary complication because ultimately 1135 01:08:28.479 --> 01:08:31.920 the code that people are writing is Typescript, and having 1136 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:38.039 this kind of intermediate compilation step and linking step is 1137 01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:40.039 it creates complications for people. 1138 01:08:40.319 --> 01:08:43.760 Yeah, but the compilation step also serves a certain purpose, 1139 01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:47.319 I think, because at the end of the day, typescript 1140 01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:51.039 is not about run time type checking. It's about it's 1141 01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:54.960 about development type type checking and compile time type checking. 1142 01:08:55.359 --> 01:09:00.479 If you're taking away the compilation you're also negating effectively 1143 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:03.720 the compiled time type checking. You kind of want a 1144 01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:06.800 certain middle step, don't you No? 1145 01:09:07.239 --> 01:09:11.399 Do you know Dino has Dino check subcommand that runs 1146 01:09:11.479 --> 01:09:15.039 the type checking. It's it's effectively like a lint right 1147 01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:18.720 on on your on your so you'll you'll when you're developing, 1148 01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:21.000 of course, you'll see this in your LSP, you'll you'll 1149 01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:25.439 see red squigglyes and and the typeescript TSC kind of 1150 01:09:25.520 --> 01:09:29.279 running in the background. Uh, but also during you know, 1151 01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:31.680 when when you push the c I or whatever, you 1152 01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:35.119 should also be running Dino check, which which is you know, 1153 01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:39.119 effectively t SC and UH check those types and you 1154 01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:41.960 should get errors if if those types are not correct. 1155 01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:45.439 So there's no compilation step, you're still no compilation. 1156 01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:50.960 Linting instead of compilation basically is what you're saying. You're 1157 01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:53.439 not getting rid of a step, but you're replacing a 1158 01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:59.800 compilation step with a linting step. Yes, so if I'm 1159 01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:05.720 running a step anyway, what's the benefit of linting over 1160 01:10:06.119 --> 01:10:08.680 linting and compilation? Why not do the compilation? 1161 01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:13.159 Think about what happens. Think about what happens when you 1162 01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:17.479 write a typescript module and you distributed this to NPN. 1163 01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:22.000 Think about what you have to think about the type stripping. 1164 01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:25.520 And you need to build a build process to create JavaScript, 1165 01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:27.760 and you need to think about the output of that. 1166 01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:31.640 So you need to generate some code, right, you need 1167 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:35.600 to run TSC and create a discs folder and have 1168 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:39.279 kind of the type stripts JavaScript output it into that folder. 1169 01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:41.600 You have to think about, you know, what flavor of 1170 01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:46.359 JavaScript you have that is all not abstracted away from you. 1171 01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:50.800 Right in Dino, in JSR, that is completely gone. You 1172 01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:52.840 do not think about that. You don't even know about that. 1173 01:10:52.920 --> 01:10:55.640 If you're a user, all you are using is typescript. 1174 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:57.960 So yes, in your c I script you still have 1175 01:10:58.319 --> 01:11:01.560 one line that says dino check and that effectively does 1176 01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:03.640 your type checking for you. But there's a whole bunch 1177 01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:07.199 of complication that is completely alleviated from you. And I 1178 01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:09.760 think as a user, when you go to use JSR, 1179 01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:12.079 you probably are not even aware of this, and the 1180 01:11:12.199 --> 01:11:16.760 overall vibe that you get is just like, holy shit. 1181 01:11:16.960 --> 01:11:19.920 I did not realize this could be so simple because 1182 01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:22.199 you're not necessarily it's not going to be like kind 1183 01:11:22.199 --> 01:11:25.560 of a conscious Not everybody's thinking about their disfolder and 1184 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:28.399 the distribution of JavaScript all of the time. Right this 1185 01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:32.720 is this is effectively internal details that have been because 1186 01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:36.079 NPM is not evolving, are exposed to users. And when 1187 01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:38.840 you go to a system like JSR or DINO where 1188 01:11:38.920 --> 01:11:42.760 we kind of deal with typescript natively, the end effect, 1189 01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:47.800 the vibe for the everyday programmer is just holy shit. 1190 01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:50.840 This is crazy simple. I didn't realize it could be 1191 01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:52.079 this nice. 1192 01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:55.800 Cool makes sense now. I don't know if we have 1193 01:11:55.880 --> 01:11:58.800 time to touch on that. But my second question was 1194 01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:01.880 about it seems that one place where Dino has been 1195 01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:06.680 really successful compared to Node and apparently more appropriate is 1196 01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:10.039 in edge computing. Is that correct? I seem to recall that. 1197 01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:19.600 Edgy Dino is notice bigger than you know in every 1198 01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:20.680 in every respect. 1199 01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:24.640 H So you know, including memory processing time? 1200 01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:34.800 No? Uh, well sorry I got the reversed. Yes, that's correct. U. Yes, 1201 01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:37.399 do you know Dono the company I think what you're 1202 01:12:37.399 --> 01:12:41.760 alluding to has in edge compute, Uh, commercial service called 1203 01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:46.119 Dino deploy and Dino subhosting. And yes we we this 1204 01:12:46.199 --> 01:12:48.560 is how we make money. We we we provide services 1205 01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:50.119 around edge compute. 1206 01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:54.119 Well, we've heard of other companies using Dino because of 1207 01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:58.760 its better performance characteristic characteristics that we as we've interviewed 1208 01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:01.239 other people. So I think that's where our our bias 1209 01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:04.439 leans toward what we've heard from you know, other people 1210 01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:06.039 on the show and whatnot. 1211 01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:06.760 Or is that. 1212 01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:11.359 Generally generally performance is better in in Dino it is. Uh, 1213 01:13:11.359 --> 01:13:13.960 we spend a lot of time to make make it great. 1214 01:13:18.159 --> 01:13:21.239 What do you have? I this might be for part 1215 01:13:21.640 --> 01:13:23.239 fun what about bun. 1216 01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:32.199 Fun is? Uh? Yeah, was there a joke there? Fun 1217 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:38.399 is is a re implementation of Node, uh that is 1218 01:13:38.439 --> 01:13:42.680 trying to outperform it. So I think they've done some 1219 01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:48.600 nice ergonomic moves. They're also kind of uh building the 1220 01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:51.600 package manager into the run time, which I agree with. 1221 01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:54.760 I think that's that's a good step, and also taking 1222 01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:58.840 on kind of this typescript type stripping feature from from Dino. 1223 01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:02.479 But you know, basically, have have the have the idea 1224 01:14:02.600 --> 01:14:07.239 that yeah, twenty nineteen JavaScript is is the end state, 1225 01:14:07.439 --> 01:14:09.239 and all we need to do is make this faster. 1226 01:14:09.319 --> 01:14:12.159 And I fundamentally disagree with this. I think there there 1227 01:14:12.199 --> 01:14:15.279 is really something to level up here and improve on. 1228 01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:17.680 I do not think we should continue to use common 1229 01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:22.800 JS require indefinitely, so you know that. I think. butN 1230 01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:25.920 in in many ways is is uh, you know, trying 1231 01:14:25.960 --> 01:14:29.720 to do Dino, but but maybe learning from our mistakes. 1232 01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:36.960 You know, they very aptly are focusing on node compatibility. 1233 01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:43.000 But yeah, to what end? Why why rewrite node exactly? 1234 01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:43.439 That? 1235 01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:49.439 That's that's always my question. I think rewriting rust, Yeah, 1236 01:14:49.479 --> 01:14:52.600 I mean I'm sure it's I'm sure, it's fun. Ultimately 1237 01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:54.920 that's that's not what I'm trying to do here with 1238 01:14:54.920 --> 01:14:58.239 with dino is is rewrite node in in rust. We 1239 01:14:58.279 --> 01:15:01.439 are trying to level up vascript and make this stuff 1240 01:15:01.479 --> 01:15:06.520 fundamentally simpler for for developers. Performance wise, I find the 1241 01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:08.880 benchmarks that they have at the top, you know, above 1242 01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:12.279 their fold on on their their website are not wrong, 1243 01:15:12.800 --> 01:15:18.319 but they are cherry picked. The performance situation with Dino 1244 01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:23.119 is fantastic, and Dino outperforms, butN in all sorts of 1245 01:15:23.159 --> 01:15:27.000 circumstances in many of the ways that matter more. For example, 1246 01:15:27.159 --> 01:15:29.760 if you want to you know, if you're running on 1247 01:15:29.800 --> 01:15:32.279 eight of US Lambda and you're concerned about your your 1248 01:15:32.279 --> 01:15:36.159 primary concern is not necessarily about Hello World throughput, which 1249 01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:38.560 is the benchmark that they have up on their page. 1250 01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:42.880 But it's a little unfair, actually, it's it's it's very 1251 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:46.640 cherry picked. And I think with a system JavaScript run 1252 01:15:46.680 --> 01:15:52.159 times are have all sorts of functionality that you know SPA, 1253 01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:55.439 there's there's thousands of APIs that that have been implemented 1254 01:15:55.520 --> 01:16:01.239 performance changes all across the board here. Uh but you know, 1255 01:16:01.319 --> 01:16:03.479 I think if you if you look at the overall picture, 1256 01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:09.199 the performance situation is vastly overstated above the fold on 1257 01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:12.840 Bun's website. And yeah, I think generally have the goal 1258 01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:18.520 of re implementing note And yeah, that's as that's I guess, 1259 01:16:18.560 --> 01:16:20.439 a goal, but not not what I'm trying to do. 1260 01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:23.239 We are we are trying to level up JavaScript and 1261 01:16:23.560 --> 01:16:26.439 kind of build the JavaScript for the next twenty years. 1262 01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:28.399 That was an excellent line to end on. 1263 01:16:29.439 --> 01:16:30.760 Yeah, good stuff. 1264 01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:33.159 By the way, to answer your question, the rim shot 1265 01:16:33.159 --> 01:16:34.800 was because you mentioned the magic word pun. 1266 01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:37.359 So I just had to throw that. I see, I 1267 01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:37.960 got it. 1268 01:16:38.079 --> 01:16:40.079 Somethinking about pun and Bun and I was like, okay, 1269 01:16:40.079 --> 01:16:41.359 that deserves one right there. 1270 01:16:42.479 --> 01:16:46.439 All right, well, let's do picks, Dan, you want to 1271 01:16:46.479 --> 01:16:47.279 start us with picks? 1272 01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:51.520 If I mused myself, it will be helpful. This is 1273 01:16:51.560 --> 01:16:54.800 the second show that I'm recording in one week, so 1274 01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:58.039 I'll excuse myself and say that I'm all picked out 1275 01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:02.079 and move on to the next person. 1276 01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:05.840 All right, AJ, what are your picks? 1277 01:17:06.399 --> 01:17:06.479 So? 1278 01:17:08.000 --> 01:17:15.680 I tried swift, and I have not had enough time 1279 01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:22.840 with it to give a true take, but I'd like it. 1280 01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:29.000 I have this problem with mac os as they introduced 1281 01:17:29.039 --> 01:17:33.560 these permissions and tools that I used to have that work, 1282 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:36.520 they kind of stop working or new bugs get introduced 1283 01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:39.439 as they're changing out all those permission models. And one 1284 01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:42.760 thing that's been happening lately is my network drives become 1285 01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:46.399 unmounted and then when my computer wakes up, they're not remounted. 1286 01:17:47.159 --> 01:17:51.079 And so I wanted to create something that would listen 1287 01:17:51.159 --> 01:17:55.560 for the unlock event and then mount my network drives. 1288 01:17:56.560 --> 01:18:01.000 And it ended up being the demo code was ten 1289 01:18:01.079 --> 01:18:04.239 lines of SWIFT, and then I expanded that out because 1290 01:18:04.279 --> 01:18:06.680 I wanted to make it like a normal project with 1291 01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:09.399 command line arguments and you know, the stuff that I 1292 01:18:09.439 --> 01:18:11.159 typically do, and kind of get a feel for it, 1293 01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:15.399 and I really really like it. It's it's kind of 1294 01:18:16.319 --> 01:18:21.000 to me, it kind of feels almost on par with 1295 01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:26.760 GO in some respects. I don't think that there maybe 1296 01:18:26.880 --> 01:18:31.319 as thoughtful and deliberate in the way that they present 1297 01:18:31.640 --> 01:18:38.199 APIs as GO is, but it is very explicit and 1298 01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:43.680 there's there's enough training examples that as a person who 1299 01:18:43.680 --> 01:18:47.520 had never touched Swift before, I was able to use 1300 01:18:47.600 --> 01:18:52.720 GPT to pretty much, you know, be the code assists. 1301 01:18:54.039 --> 01:18:57.600 My primary code assist in creating my program, which ended 1302 01:18:57.640 --> 01:18:59.720 up being more than ten lines it's more like one 1303 01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:02.479 hundre because of the like I said, there's some arguments 1304 01:19:02.479 --> 01:19:04.399 parsing and some other stuff and me just playing around. 1305 01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:13.159 But yeah, so I'm I'm gonna pick Apple's Swift. It 1306 01:19:13.159 --> 01:19:20.399 it seems to be a really solid language, and I yeah, 1307 01:19:20.439 --> 01:19:23.560 I don't know, I have it. It's different, it's it 1308 01:19:23.640 --> 01:19:26.399 actually reminds me more of PowerShell than of anything else, 1309 01:19:27.239 --> 01:19:30.840 which that sounds like a disc but it's not. PowerShell 1310 01:19:31.640 --> 01:19:34.159 is probably one of the best things that Microsoft has 1311 01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:40.079 ever turned out. PowerShell is incredibly well engineered and thought out. 1312 01:19:40.119 --> 01:19:41.880 It has a different paradigm. It's actually a much more 1313 01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:46.079 functional paradigm. But and it doesn't have a concept of 1314 01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:48.039 standard in and standard out as much as it has 1315 01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:51.159 a concept of pipes and streams. And so it's not 1316 01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:53.479 just standard in and standard out. You can, I think 1317 01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:56.039 you can have an arbitrary number of streams, but they're 1318 01:19:56.199 --> 01:19:58.920 they're kind of functional in the way that they work, 1319 01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:01.560 almost like channels go or something. I don't know quite 1320 01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:04.880 how to explained. Anyway, Swift is Swift is a pick 1321 01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:05.159 for me. 1322 01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:08.439 And then before you move on, it's just what you 1323 01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:12.199 said about GPT just occurred to me that we totally 1324 01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:15.960 forgot to ask Ryan, which a which mL model are 1325 01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:17.800 you going to be building into Dino? 1326 01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:21.439 Yeah? Yeah, what's your what's your AI strategy for the future? 1327 01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:27.359 I really, you know, doing a startup like that, that 1328 01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:32.840 question gets asked and ironically very often, Uh oh, I know, 1329 01:20:33.159 --> 01:20:39.640 I our our, our, our technology is pretty orthogonal to this. 1330 01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:42.399 But if you go back and kind of look at 1331 01:20:42.439 --> 01:20:45.640 some of my stuff, uh, Dino actually started out as 1332 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:50.079 a TensorFlow plus node project. We I was coming out 1333 01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:54.520 of Google Brain and wanting to do mL models in JavaScript. 1334 01:20:55.319 --> 01:20:57.960 And we haven't touched on kind of the Jupiter notebook 1335 01:20:58.039 --> 01:21:01.279 support in in Dino, but you know, I guess suffice 1336 01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:04.760 it to say that that I think data science and 1337 01:21:04.840 --> 01:21:07.520 statistics and stuff in JavaScript is a thing that will 1338 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:10.159 happen in the future. And although I'm primarily working on 1339 01:21:10.159 --> 01:21:12.399 the module system and kind of getting the run time 1340 01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:15.880 up and running right now, I have dreams of kind 1341 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:20.560 of stealing statistics away from Python and scientific computing and 1342 01:21:21.239 --> 01:21:23.560 making this work in JavaScript really nicely. 1343 01:21:24.279 --> 01:21:27.119 I love the idea, to be honest, I've been thinking 1344 01:21:27.159 --> 01:21:30.239 for a while that I I would love to see 1345 01:21:30.279 --> 01:21:35.199 something like that in a language that I find more approachable, right, 1346 01:21:35.319 --> 01:21:38.840 So you know, for me that's Ruby and JavaScript, but 1347 01:21:39.479 --> 01:21:43.520 you know, yeah, just having those capabilities in these hands, 1348 01:21:44.039 --> 01:21:46.920 and I think especially JavaScript. 1349 01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:49.159 With the reach that it has, I mean, that would 1350 01:21:49.159 --> 01:21:53.399 be amazing. So I'm all on board with that, AJ, 1351 01:21:53.560 --> 01:21:54.760 did you get all your picks out? 1352 01:21:55.600 --> 01:21:55.840 You know? 1353 01:21:56.159 --> 01:21:59.359 One more, I think I'm gonna have to switch my 1354 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:04.520 my browser screen shotting service from running with Bun to 1355 01:22:04.640 --> 01:22:09.159 running with Dino. So I'm just testing it right now. 1356 01:22:09.279 --> 01:22:12.199 It worked. I was able to just like change two 1357 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:15.039 lines of code what process dot exit was one of them, 1358 01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:19.560 But now it's not closing. I'll figure that out. But yeah, 1359 01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:23.279 so so I guess I guess I'm a Dino fanboy again. Ryan. 1360 01:22:23.439 --> 01:22:26.960 I I've had some things to say in the past, so. 1361 01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:31.840 What you I am shocked? 1362 01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:35.560 No between like as this cycle has gone from you know, 1363 01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:38.119 Node and Dino and Bun. I was like on the 1364 01:22:38.199 --> 01:22:40.920 Dino train for a while, but I was really frustrated 1365 01:22:40.920 --> 01:22:43.119 with some stuff and then I was on the Bun train. 1366 01:22:43.319 --> 01:22:46.279 So I'm uh, I'm JavaScript fluid. 1367 01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:51.680 All right, All good, we're trying, we're trying to figure 1368 01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:54.520 it out. Hopefully you have a nice experience with with 1369 01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:55.479 you know, in the future. 1370 01:22:56.479 --> 01:23:00.479 Well, it's it's going to improve my my performance on 1371 01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:03.840 opening up a binary to run Chrome to do a screenshot. 1372 01:23:03.960 --> 01:23:09.960 So all right, I'm gonna jump in and derail us 1373 01:23:10.039 --> 01:23:11.359 back to Steve. 1374 01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:12.640 Steve, what are your picks? 1375 01:23:13.800 --> 01:23:15.920 Okay, Ryan, I'm not sure if you were, But the 1376 01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:19.079 high point of all our podcasts is my dad jokes, 1377 01:23:19.359 --> 01:23:26.680 so hence my name Dad Joker. So wait, okay, supposedly 1378 01:23:27.399 --> 01:23:30.399 thirty of the world's population lets their pets sleep in 1379 01:23:30.439 --> 01:23:33.359 bed with them. I'm really upset though, because I tried 1380 01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:39.399 it yesterday and now my goldfish is dead. The other 1381 01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:42.640 day I learned that Albert Einstein was a real person, 1382 01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:46.319 But this whole time I thought he was a theoretical physicist. 1383 01:23:53.119 --> 01:23:55.279 And they like, it's so good. 1384 01:23:55.119 --> 01:23:55.840 They don't get better. 1385 01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:59.119 That's the best when you've had an agents, I thought. 1386 01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:02.319 A pretty high bar. And then last night I saw 1387 01:24:02.359 --> 01:24:07.000 this breaking news story that during the day, actually sorry, 1388 01:24:07.079 --> 01:24:10.000 during the day, count Chocolate to Stay Puff, marshamallow Man, 1389 01:24:10.039 --> 01:24:12.359 and the Teddy Grahams Bear all perished in a fire 1390 01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:15.359 and they said, s'more at eleven, what. 1391 01:24:16.279 --> 01:24:19.640 Your joke about Einstein? Reminded me of a dad joke 1392 01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:23.199 about this young physics student who is at the party 1393 01:24:23.239 --> 01:24:25.880 and he's dancing with some girl trying to pick her up, 1394 01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:31.840 and he says, you know, Einstein and Newton's dead. Einstein's dead, 1395 01:24:32.319 --> 01:24:37.960 and I'm not feeling so well this evening. I guess 1396 01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:38.720 that didn't end. 1397 01:24:39.800 --> 01:24:42.600 I'll give you a rimshot anyway for the effort. 1398 01:24:45.560 --> 01:24:47.840 That's all I have done, all right. 1399 01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:53.199 I guess it's my turn for picks, so I'll jump 1400 01:24:53.239 --> 01:24:56.239 in with I always do a board game pick. I 1401 01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:58.359 don't know if I did this last week or earlier 1402 01:24:58.399 --> 01:25:00.760 this week, so I'm just gonna and if you get 1403 01:25:00.800 --> 01:25:02.359 it twice in a row, I am sorry. 1404 01:25:03.359 --> 01:25:05.960 I'm gonna pick Challengers. It's a game. 1405 01:25:06.119 --> 01:25:08.039 It's kind of a mix between Capture of the Flag 1406 01:25:08.119 --> 01:25:12.960 and War. It's a relatively fast game. You play seven rounds. 1407 01:25:14.039 --> 01:25:16.359 Whoever has the most points at the end of seven rounds, 1408 01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:19.760 the two top people go head to head, and whoever 1409 01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:23.760 wins that one wins. And effectively it's a deck building 1410 01:25:23.800 --> 01:25:28.239 game or kind of, so you draft cards. 1411 01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:30.000 You can put two cards. 1412 01:25:29.800 --> 01:25:33.359 Into your hand or one higher level card on some 1413 01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:37.359 rounds into your hand. You're building out your deck, and 1414 01:25:37.399 --> 01:25:39.600 then you flip the cards over and they have different 1415 01:25:39.680 --> 01:25:47.640 abilities and so anyway, sometimes they stack nicely, and essentially 1416 01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:50.640 there's I can't remember what the zone is on the 1417 01:25:50.720 --> 01:25:55.640 side of the playing field, but you can stack up 1418 01:25:55.640 --> 01:25:57.359 to six types of cards on the site. If you 1419 01:25:57.439 --> 01:26:00.560 run out of room there, your opponent wins. If you 1420 01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:03.840 run out of cards, your opponent wins the round and 1421 01:26:03.840 --> 01:26:06.039 then they get a trophy that has the points on it. 1422 01:26:07.399 --> 01:26:12.079 So the gameplay is relatively simple. It's just knowing how 1423 01:26:12.119 --> 01:26:15.760 to get the cards to synergize is the game you're 1424 01:26:15.840 --> 01:26:19.039 really playing, and then knowing when to pull things in 1425 01:26:19.079 --> 01:26:21.079 and out of your hands so that you don't bust 1426 01:26:21.239 --> 01:26:26.159 on putting stuff onto your bench right and running out 1427 01:26:26.199 --> 01:26:28.600 of room there. So it's it's a terrific game. I 1428 01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:33.039 think board game geek rate waits at to something. I 1429 01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:36.920 didn't look it up, but it's it's super fun. It 1430 01:26:36.920 --> 01:26:41.439 plays up to eight people. That's the other thing that 1431 01:26:41.479 --> 01:26:44.920 I like about it is that usually you get a 1432 01:26:44.920 --> 01:26:47.680 board game and it'll play four, sometimes it'll play five 1433 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:54.159 or six. Challengers plays up to eight and everybody gets 1434 01:26:54.159 --> 01:26:56.279 a card that just shows you where to sit next, 1435 01:26:56.319 --> 01:26:58.680 so that you're playing. And yeah, the board game weight 1436 01:26:58.800 --> 01:26:59.800 is one point seventy eight. 1437 01:27:00.119 --> 01:27:03.079 It's pretty approachable. I think my eight year old could 1438 01:27:03.119 --> 01:27:03.439 play it. 1439 01:27:04.079 --> 01:27:07.359 I don't know that she'd really do well with the 1440 01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:11.039 deck building piece right put all these together, you know, 1441 01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:14.680 to have a mighty hand, but I think she could 1442 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.600 to a certain degree. No, oh, I really like these cards. 1443 01:27:18.760 --> 01:27:22.640 Or pick the higher the higher number cards so that 1444 01:27:22.680 --> 01:27:26.600 you can win the flag back. So anyway, I'm going 1445 01:27:26.680 --> 01:27:28.439 to pick that came out in twenty twenty two. 1446 01:27:28.560 --> 01:27:29.279 I played it. 1447 01:27:29.239 --> 01:27:35.399 At the game Board Conference up in Layton and it 1448 01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:40.600 was awesome. So anyway, yes, you can play it with 1449 01:27:40.600 --> 01:27:44.760 two players. It is probably better with four, six or 1450 01:27:44.760 --> 01:27:47.960 eight players. If you have an odd number of players, 1451 01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:54.520 there's a robot deck that gets progressively harder as each 1452 01:27:54.600 --> 01:27:58.479 round goes by, because it's got things like this card 1453 01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:02.479 is worth whatever round you're on, or however many fans, 1454 01:28:02.520 --> 01:28:04.479 which is the points you have, or things like that, 1455 01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:09.399 so you know, it's kind of set up to kind 1456 01:28:09.439 --> 01:28:12.920 of match your hand, but you play both hands when 1457 01:28:12.960 --> 01:28:17.359 you're playing against the robot. So so you can play 1458 01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:19.279 with odd number of players too, is what I'm saying. 1459 01:28:19.840 --> 01:28:22.439 But yeah, it's it's typically better if you have at 1460 01:28:22.479 --> 01:28:25.439 least four and that's just because then you get to 1461 01:28:25.439 --> 01:28:27.640 switch up who you're playing against. But you can definitely 1462 01:28:27.640 --> 01:28:33.479 play it two player. Yeah, it's it's pretty awesome. So 1463 01:28:33.520 --> 01:28:37.000 I'll put the board game geek link in here, and 1464 01:28:37.039 --> 01:28:39.319 then I'll go find an Amazon affiliate link here in 1465 01:28:39.319 --> 01:28:44.840 a minute, and then other picks. There was an article 1466 01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:46.880 that came or not an article but a blog post 1467 01:28:46.920 --> 01:28:52.439 that DHH put out basically talking about free speech, and 1468 01:28:52.520 --> 01:28:54.880 basically essentially what he was saying is that people have 1469 01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:57.840 the right to say things, even if they're offensive, even 1470 01:28:57.880 --> 01:29:00.279 if they're awful, even if they're full of crap. He 1471 01:29:00.279 --> 01:29:03.399 didn't say full of crap, uh, he said some He 1472 01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:05.359 used the word I'm not going to use on the podcast, 1473 01:29:05.399 --> 01:29:08.720 but you know, but you have the right to say 1474 01:29:08.720 --> 01:29:11.199 what you're going to say. And I like the idea 1475 01:29:11.319 --> 01:29:14.359 of that, just from the standpoint of, hey, look at 1476 01:29:14.439 --> 01:29:18.520 least I know who you are, right, and I think 1477 01:29:18.560 --> 01:29:20.680 most people are smart enough to figure out, yeah, you 1478 01:29:20.720 --> 01:29:23.279 know you're saying this and you really are full of crap. 1479 01:29:23.800 --> 01:29:27.439 So but but he was responding mostly. 1480 01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:30.760 To the stuff where they're sent sentencing people to like 1481 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:34.279 twenty months in jail for posting something to social media 1482 01:29:34.319 --> 01:29:38.479 that's offensive in England and oh my goodness, yeah, just 1483 01:29:39.159 --> 01:29:39.720 very true. 1484 01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:40.680 I've seen the video. 1485 01:29:41.600 --> 01:29:44.479 Yeah, yeah, the thing that and you see this in 1486 01:29:44.479 --> 01:29:47.319 the United States too, and you know it's cherry picked examples, 1487 01:29:47.319 --> 01:29:51.880 but they give an example of like a man essay 1488 01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.840 to woman and got six months, but a person who 1489 01:29:54.960 --> 01:29:58.640 posted something mean on Twitter got twenty months. 1490 01:30:00.680 --> 01:30:04.359 It's it's a it's it's problematic because unless you know, 1491 01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:07.800 it's very easy to get specific cases wrong if you 1492 01:30:07.800 --> 01:30:10.560 don't know the details, like you know, on the one hand, 1493 01:30:10.680 --> 01:30:13.720 it's obviously free speech, and we're all all in favor 1494 01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:18.159 of free speech, but then turns out that incitement was made, 1495 01:30:18.239 --> 01:30:22.079 so it's it's it's it's like if you say, you know, 1496 01:30:22.279 --> 01:30:26.359 go out and kill all such and such people, right. Yeah. 1497 01:30:26.439 --> 01:30:30.119 So I'm not saying that it's not that it's right 1498 01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:32.399 or wrong. I'm saying that you need you should have 1499 01:30:32.479 --> 01:30:35.800 the full context before making judgment. I tend to reserve 1500 01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:39.720 my judgment until I have. You know, as much. 1501 01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:42.520 As it was a mob boss with a coordinated attack, 1502 01:30:42.640 --> 01:30:45.039 it doesn't matter if on Twitter you say go kill someone. 1503 01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:48.640 I mean, if it was a leader of a terrorist organization, 1504 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:49.279 that's one thing. 1505 01:30:50.920 --> 01:30:52.640 But in some countries it is. 1506 01:30:52.960 --> 01:30:55.720 You know, I didn't mean to open this can of worms, 1507 01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:57.079 but I will. 1508 01:30:57.399 --> 01:31:00.319 Again, I'm not making you all judgment. I'm I'm just 1509 01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:05.159 saying that in some countries have different laws regarding free 1510 01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:08.920 speech than the US does. And you, yeah, cognizant that. 1511 01:31:09.560 --> 01:31:10.600 Yeah, I recognize that. 1512 01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:12.720 I think I think the issue that he's pointing out 1513 01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:15.920 and he didn't go into like incitement and stuff, right, 1514 01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:17.720 he was just saying, hey, look, you should be able 1515 01:31:17.760 --> 01:31:20.680 to say wrong things, and and that I agree with. 1516 01:31:20.880 --> 01:31:22.439 Right, Yeah, down to incitement. 1517 01:31:22.479 --> 01:31:24.920 If you're encouraging people to go out and hurt other people, 1518 01:31:25.439 --> 01:31:28.840 you know obviously that that's a real problem. But if 1519 01:31:28.880 --> 01:31:32.680 you're expressing your opinion, you can express bad opinions. 1520 01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:33.279 Anyway. 1521 01:31:35.399 --> 01:31:37.319 I'm trying to think if there's anything else I wanted 1522 01:31:37.319 --> 01:31:40.000 to pick. I have an AI summit that I'm putting 1523 01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.920 together in October, so keep an eye out for that. 1524 01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:45.640 Other than that, Ryan, what are your picks? 1525 01:31:48.399 --> 01:31:54.840 I really like Grain dot com. This is some tool 1526 01:31:54.960 --> 01:32:00.520 that helps you record meetings. And you know, Dino as 1527 01:32:00.560 --> 01:32:02.399 a company, do you know, do you know has uh 1528 01:32:02.680 --> 01:32:06.319 is remote and we have meetings with people and and 1529 01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:09.520 uh Yeah, Grain just helps you record it and make 1530 01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:14.359 some transcript of it. And I find it just super 1531 01:32:14.479 --> 01:32:17.800 useful too. It's just got a great interface, so pretty 1532 01:32:17.880 --> 01:32:21.760 pretty simple tool. But but and I'm sure there's probably 1533 01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:24.319 other ones, but I've been finding a lot of utility 1534 01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:25.000 from grain. 1535 01:32:27.279 --> 01:32:27.680 Awesome. 1536 01:32:28.760 --> 01:32:30.920 All Right, One last thing, and we should have asked 1537 01:32:30.920 --> 01:32:33.199 this way earlier. But if people want to see more 1538 01:32:33.239 --> 01:32:36.479 information about Dno. Two, or if they want to reach 1539 01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:38.279 out to you and say, hey, I like this or 1540 01:32:38.319 --> 01:32:40.079 I don't like that, how do they find you? 1541 01:32:41.840 --> 01:32:47.199 Yeah, I'm rough Ce rough Underscore Underscore see on on 1542 01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:52.239 Twitter with Dino Underscore land On on Twitter, uh and Dino. 1543 01:32:52.079 --> 01:32:55.000 Dot com on on the webs and yeah, there's a 1544 01:32:55.039 --> 01:32:57.359 discord you can. You can find my email if you 1545 01:32:57.399 --> 01:33:03.800 search hard enough. So, yeah, we're happening to Rye Rye 1546 01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:05.880 the Twitter handle or what. 1547 01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:09.279 Yeah, well I thought you were right? Were you not right? 1548 01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:14.960 I was ry Yeah with an h in twenty ten. 1549 01:33:15.279 --> 01:33:19.079 But yeah, I stopped using Twitter for a number of 1550 01:33:19.159 --> 01:33:21.359 years and just just came back a couple of months ago. 1551 01:33:22.880 --> 01:33:27.479 Well, I'm sorry for your mental health. I'll offer you 1552 01:33:27.520 --> 01:33:28.720 some asprin if you need it. 1553 01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:34.439 All right, It's it's it's fun being on Twitter these days. Yeah, 1554 01:33:34.479 --> 01:33:36.319 back in the not days, it was very noisy. 1555 01:33:37.600 --> 01:33:42.520 Oh bet that explains the That explains the shockingly low 1556 01:33:42.600 --> 01:33:48.239 number of followers you have. Yeah, I was by the way, Chuck, 1557 01:33:48.319 --> 01:33:50.880 did you give Ryan the chance to do picks? 1558 01:33:51.319 --> 01:33:52.520 I did you pick? 1559 01:33:53.359 --> 01:33:53.439 Co? 1560 01:33:54.039 --> 01:33:59.560 Oh? I missed it. Sorry I wasn't I wasn't paying attention. Sorry. 1561 01:33:59.640 --> 01:34:03.279 Yeah, all right, Well we're gonna go ahead and wrap 1562 01:34:03.279 --> 01:34:06.800 it up. Thanks for coming, Ryan, And thanks to your team. 1563 01:34:06.880 --> 01:34:10.760 They've done an excellent job kind of keeping us informed. 1564 01:34:10.479 --> 01:34:13.720 So to do this. And thanks for making such a 1565 01:34:13.840 --> 01:34:17.359 huge difference to the web. I consider the Web to 1566 01:34:17.399 --> 01:34:21.840 be like maybe one of the greatest achievements of humanity 1567 01:34:21.880 --> 01:34:26.680 of all time. And and and I think that you know, 1568 01:34:27.520 --> 01:34:30.960 you and the Dino team, but even you personally have 1569 01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:34.000 made a significant impact on that. So thank you for that. 1570 01:34:35.239 --> 01:34:37.079 Yeah. Well, I don't know if I can take credit 1571 01:34:37.119 --> 01:34:41.319 for the Web. I can take credit for note which Yes, 1572 01:34:41.359 --> 01:34:46.920 thank you, and yeah, thanks for having me. 1573 01:34:46.880 --> 01:34:47.479 On It's fun. 1574 01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:49.840 Thank you for the reminder of the Flintstones every time 1575 01:34:49.880 --> 01:34:50.399 I hear the name. 1576 01:34:50.840 --> 01:34:53.560 All right, till next time, folks, max out