1 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:25,120 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,719 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:30,079 --> 00:00:32,600 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,960 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDRLST, 6 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:40,600 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:44,240 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,600 Our guest today is Justin Shubo, President of the National 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,399 Civic Arts Society, a nonprofit organization headquartered in Washington, DC 10 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,079 that promotes the classroom tradition in public arts and architecture. 11 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:01,640 Justin is also chairman of the US Commission of Fine Arts, 12 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:06,159 the esthetic review Board for Washington, appointed by President Trump. 13 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,439 He is reportedly one of two finalists four chairmen of 14 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,159 the National Endowment for the Arts. In the Trump administration. 15 00:01:14,799 --> 00:01:18,799 He has gotten the endorsement of folks like Victor Davis 16 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,760 Hansen and others. We will talk more about that coming up, 17 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,280 but first and foremost, welcome Justin Shubo to this edition 18 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,359 of the Federalist Radio Hour. It's a pleasure having you. 19 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. Just one small correction. I'm 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,400 the former chairman of the US Commission of Fine Arts. 21 00:01:35,439 --> 00:01:38,280 By did remove me and others, But which is something 22 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:39,319 maybe we could talk about. 23 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. My apologies that. 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: You were indeed, and then of course the Biden administration 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,400 took over and new sheriff in town sort of thing. 26 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:52,640 But I do want to start with the idea of 27 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:58,359 making architecture classical again. That was a piece that was 28 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,400 noted at the time when you were involved in drafting 29 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:12,280 Trump's revolutionary executive Order that reoriented federal architecture from how 30 00:02:12,319 --> 00:02:15,599 would you describe I suppose many different eyes might describe 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,960 modernism back to the beautiful, classical and traditional design. Let's 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,000 begin there, because I think that really does speak to 33 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,800 your back round as you navigate through the arts and 34 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:31,560 public funding. 35 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: Sure, so, as you mentioned at the end of his term, 36 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:44,560 President Trump issued this amazing revolutionary order. It emphasized that 37 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:50,319 our federal buildings need to be beautiful, uplifting the United 38 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:55,120 States and receive the general support of the ordinary person, 39 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,080 as opposed to say the members of the architectural establishment 40 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,439 or cultural elites. 41 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,599 Speaker 3: The order to look back. 42 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: To the founding fathers Washington and Jefferson, who consciously chose 43 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,960 the classical style for our core buildings of government looking 44 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:18,520 back to you know, looking back, hearkening to ancient Greece 45 00:03:18,599 --> 00:03:23,479 and Rome, these antecedents of democracy, and Jefferson talked about 46 00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:27,520 the classical tradition as being time honored and timeless. 47 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,439 Speaker 3: Great statesmen throughout history. 48 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:34,439 Speaker 2: Have understood the importance of architecture for the body politic. 49 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,319 This goes at least as far back as Peracles in 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,919 the building of the Parthenon in Athens, demonstrating the supremacy. 51 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: Of the city state. 52 00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: But later, you know, we have the founding Fathers, and later, 53 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:52,199 still in the twentieth century, Winston Churchill gave a speech 54 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,840 on the rebuilding of the Houses of Parliament, which have 55 00:03:55,919 --> 00:03:59,319 been bombed in World War Two, and he famously said, 56 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:04,479 we shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us. And President 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Trump this executive order recognized that since at least the 58 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,279 nineteen fifties, our federal buildings just became hideous, banal, and 59 00:04:16,639 --> 00:04:22,079 quite simply unliked by the American people. And we got brutalism, 60 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,800 which I like to describe as a boot stamping on 61 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,680 your face for all of eternity, and in more recent years, 62 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,399 under the current design standards, we've been getting some avant 63 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,480 garde and crazy designs that look like alien spacecraft. 64 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,439 Speaker 3: And this executive. 65 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:49,399 Speaker 2: Order required that classical and traditional architecture be preferred for 66 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,399 federal buildings across the country, and those terms were defined 67 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:59,360 extremely broadly, so, for instance, classical included Art Deco. And 68 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:03,319 the order was that its most stringent regarding Washington, DC, 69 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:08,079 requiring that new federal buildings there be classical. After all, 70 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,920 Washington was meant to be a classical city. It is 71 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 understood to be a classical city by ordinary Americans, and 72 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,639 therefore we should continue that tradition. 73 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:22,759 Speaker 3: And one more important thing that was in the executive order. 74 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: It required that there would be input from the general 75 00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:32,199 public when design decisions were being made. So thus, for 76 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,279 the first time, there would be an element of democracy 77 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:35,959 in design. 78 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: Brutalism who comes up with stuff like this? 79 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: Well, Brutalism arose. 80 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: Due to our architects seeking to expose the brutal, harsh 81 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,360 reality of life. 82 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: They wanted to use materials like. 83 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: Exposed reinforced concrete, sort of almost a metaphor for Cold 84 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:09,120 War bunkers, a kind. 85 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:11,959 Speaker 3: Of fearful approach toward life. 86 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,199 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a joke that some of these brutalist 87 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:16,120 buildings could. 88 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 3: Only be torn down by a direct nuclear strike. 89 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,439 Speaker 2: And these buildings were never intended to be beautiful. The 90 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,639 architects had a different approach, seeking to achieve other things 91 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,959 through their buildings, you know, the strikingness of the form, 92 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:36,519 the honesty of materials. It's not as if they were 93 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,480 debating about what is beautiful or not. They just had 94 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,839 a completely different agenda, and we ended up with buildings 95 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:47,879 like the FBI headquarters, which I call the Ministry of Fear, 96 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,959 and we got numerous other brutalist buildings plaguing Washington, DC 97 00:06:53,199 --> 00:06:54,680 and elsewhere around the country. 98 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: So much for aspirational huh, I mean, you're right. I 99 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:02,720 mean this is a whole movement in architecture, and it 100 00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:09,560 seems to be absolutely anathema to what Jefferson spoke of 101 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:16,519 the aspirational designs, the timeless designs of you know, classical architecture. 102 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 103 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: I mean, these brutalist buildings give you a sense of 104 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:22,959 the federal government as being. 105 00:07:22,759 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: The largest business on the face of the earth. 106 00:07:25,959 --> 00:07:32,399 Speaker 2: You're getting faceless bureaucracy, nothing inspiring, nothing, ennobling buildings that 107 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:38,360 have been widely hated by Americans since they were originally constructed. 108 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,079 You know, you look at the headquarters for HUD Housing 109 00:07:43,079 --> 00:07:47,759 in Urban Development in Washington, d C. Three different HUT 110 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:52,160 secretaries have said that building is like tenfold lords of Basement, 111 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,519 one of them Jack Kemper Republican, and two others Sean 112 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,680 Donovan and Juliam Castro, Democrats. 113 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: So we're even getting bipartisan opposition to brutalism. And Castro himself. 114 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: Said that the building looked like something from the Soviet Union. 115 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:13,399 Now that's not to say that certain architectural elites and 116 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:19,160 kind of esthetes have a fondness for brutalism nowadays, but 117 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,600 it's kind of like they're getting off on the sinister 118 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:26,920 aspect of these buildings, on the overwhelming sense of fear 119 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,519 one can get from them. They're getting off on it 120 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,120 in the same way that some people enjoy horror movies. Right, 121 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,080 the pleasure in feeling a negative emotion amazing. 122 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,519 Speaker 1: When somebody named Castro tells you, warns you that something 123 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,879 looks like a Soviet style building, maybe a better listen 124 00:08:45,919 --> 00:08:50,679 to them. That's for sure, you have critics on that front. 125 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,559 I wanted to get your response to this. This was 126 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:58,240 a letter that I found that published in twenty twenty. 127 00:08:59,519 --> 00:09:03,679 It was from planner and author Jeff Speck in twenty 128 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:09,120 twenty to Common Edge, a nonprofit organization dedicated to reconnecting 129 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,879 architecture and design with the public that it's meant to serve, 130 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,240 at least according to Common Edge website. It's the headline 131 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:23,399 doesn't mince any words. Justin Schubo's insane push for a 132 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,639 state sanctioned architectural style. I'll read you just a bit 133 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,799 of this. I'll let you respond by ghost writing and 134 00:09:29,879 --> 00:09:34,759 executive order to make classicism the default style for federal architecture. 135 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,960 You and your organization have shown that your goal's Writing 136 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,679 this to you joan that your goal is no longer 137 00:09:42,759 --> 00:09:50,200 diversity but domination. By accusing modernist Q to your big M, 138 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:55,120 meaning you capitalize modernist of wanting the same, you expose 139 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,200 the childish impulse behind trying to win the style wars. 140 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,360 You have gone from wanting a seat at the table 141 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,960 to trying to pull out everyone else's chair. Let's say 142 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,080 you of mister Speck's criticism. 143 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot to say about that. 144 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: First, I would note that the founding fathers did institute 145 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:26,639 an official style for federal buildings, namely classicism, and then 146 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,759 that tradition lasted for around one hundred and fifty years. 147 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,960 In fact, in nineteen oh one, the Treasury Department, which 148 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,480 at the time oversaw all federal buildings, explicitly made classicism 149 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:45,879 official and as if federal building suffered. In fact, there 150 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,399 was an efflorescence of beautiful classical design bose art works 151 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,559 that would include things like the US Supreme Court, which 152 00:10:55,639 --> 00:10:59,360 was built in the nineteen thirties, the quote unquote modern era. 153 00:10:59,799 --> 00:11:01,799 Speaker 3: So and there's a long. 154 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:07,799 Speaker 2: Tradition for there being official styles in government architecture, and 155 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,360 you also see this in other countries as well. At 156 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:16,799 the same time, the executive order that President Trump issued 157 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,120 did not ban on modernism. 158 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: It simply said that there should. 159 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: Be a preference for classical and traditional design, but most importantly, 160 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,279 that the buildings be beautiful, ennobling, inspiring, and appreciated. 161 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,159 Speaker 3: And beloved by the American people. 162 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:39,399 Speaker 2: So thus there was to be diversity across the country. 163 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Like I said, there was no ban, but I think 164 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:48,039 that there was nothing wrong in encouraging the federal government 165 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:51,360 to build in the styles that are most popular with 166 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,399 the American people. 167 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,399 Speaker 3: My organization in. 168 00:11:54,399 --> 00:11:58,519 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty did a survey by the Harris Pole that 169 00:11:58,759 --> 00:12:02,320 found that seven twenty two percent of the people survey 170 00:12:02,519 --> 00:12:06,559 preferred classical and traditional design for federal. 171 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,759 Speaker 3: Buildings in US courthouses. 172 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: And there were widespread majorities across all demographic groups, gender, race, 173 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,039 socioeconomic and political party affiliation, with seventy three percent of 174 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,080 Republicans supporting tradition in seventy percent of Democrats. So there 175 00:12:25,159 --> 00:12:30,080 is this widespread majority support for tradition, and I think 176 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:36,039 there's nothing wrong with the President instituting policy that reflects that. 177 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,759 Speaker 3: And I would also say to his claim that, you know. 178 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: We classicists are seeking to dominate, well, in fact, the 179 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:49,000 modernists have been dominating at least since the nineteen sixties. 180 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,919 There have been barely any classical or traditional federal buildings 181 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,879 built since that time, and some of the rare counter 182 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,159 exceptions to that are in Alabama, thanks single handedly to 183 00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:07,799 the efforts of Senator Shelby. So President Trump was overturning 184 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,000 that hegemony and returning buildings to the sort of style. 185 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:14,159 Speaker 3: That ordinary people love and appreciate. 186 00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:17,919 Speaker 1: Do you find it curious that people who the same 187 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,679 people who despise the electoral college and often talk about 188 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,639 how the popular vote should dictate the outcome of elections 189 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,639 in this country don't seem to feel the same way 190 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,080 about the sort of surveys you mentioned where the vast 191 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:41,399 majority of Americans reject their particular view of how architecture 192 00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:47,200 should be and prefer the classical designs. 193 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean people like Jess Back. 194 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that they really care about 195 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,440 what the ordinary public thinks. I mean, they are the 196 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,639 architectural elites, and they think that they are the legislators 197 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,080 of mankind. They're the ones who wish to create a progressive, 198 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:11,759 new kind of society and can't stand the idea that 199 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:14,480 we could look back to our heritage, going all the 200 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,159 way back to the founders. 201 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 4: Superman derives his power from the Yellow Sun. The Watch 202 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,000 Dout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day 203 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,080 Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 204 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,120 and how it affects your wallet. DC politicians get their 205 00:14:31,159 --> 00:14:34,840 power by giving handouts. In nineteen thirteen, the tax code 206 00:14:34,919 --> 00:14:38,600 was four hundred pages long. Today it's seventy five thousand. 207 00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:41,639 This is how politicians derive their power whether it's happening 208 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:44,200 in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 209 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:44,799 Speaker 3: Be informed. 210 00:14:44,879 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 4: Check out the Watch Dot on Wall Street podcast with 211 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:49,919 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. 212 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:59,399 Speaker 1: And then let's talk a little bit about what happened afterward, 213 00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:05,679 and I specifically talk about your involvement in leading these 214 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:12,879 different areas, in particular, what happened after Joe Biden took 215 00:15:12,919 --> 00:15:16,879 office and when you were chairman of the US Commission 216 00:15:16,879 --> 00:15:20,000 of Fine Arts again, that is the Aesthetic Review Board 217 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:25,279 for Washington. You were appointed by President elect Donald Trump 218 00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:29,080 President at the time, Joe Biden comes in and says, no, 219 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,600 we're going to go in a different direction. What happened 220 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:34,039 on that front? What has happened on that front over 221 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,159 the last four years in Washington, DC? 222 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:43,799 Speaker 2: Sure, so, almost immediately after taking office, President Biden rescinded 223 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:49,360 Trump's executive order. He didn't give any explanation at the 224 00:15:49,399 --> 00:15:53,000 time for why he did it, but architectural elites had 225 00:15:53,039 --> 00:15:56,639 been lobbying him extremely hard. I mean, after all, there 226 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,279 was a lot of money at stake, not just this 227 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:04,679 idea component. And then you had cultural elites like the 228 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:08,799 New York Times editorial board opposing the order. So The 229 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:12,840 New York Times published an editorial titled What's so great 230 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,480 about Fake Roman Temples? The implication being that the US 231 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:23,159 Supreme Court, the Jefferson Memorial, the US Capital are all 232 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,000 fake Roman temples. I mean, obviously these are not two 233 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,720 thousand year old buildings. So there was the way of, 234 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:32,360 you know, let's see if I can pronounce the French, 235 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,799 you know, bien pensant opinion. 236 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: Later, some months later, President Biden. 237 00:16:40,279 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: Removed me and three other commissioners from the seven member 238 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,679 US Commission of Fine Arts. We had been appointed to 239 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:53,120 four year terms, and no president had ever removed the 240 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:56,799 commissioner in the commissions one hundred and ten year history, 241 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:01,799 let alone the Commission's chairman. Now, at that time, the 242 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,960 White House did explain to the press the president's rationale, 243 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,480 and the White House said that we were removed since 244 00:17:09,519 --> 00:17:13,559 our strong support of classical architecture did not comport with 245 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:14,759 the President's values. 246 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: That's interesting. So then from that point did he unleash 247 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:31,240 another round, you know, another agenda, promoting this progressivism, modernist 248 00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:34,920 approach to architecture, particularly in the nation's capital. 249 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 2: Well, under his administration, the agency agency responsible for federal buildings. 250 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:48,119 The General Services Administration continued business as usual. You know, 251 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:53,640 you continued to get the domination of modernism with very 252 00:17:53,680 --> 00:18:00,640 few classical or traditional buildings approved or built. So, you know, 253 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,119 Trump wanted to change everything and Biden wished to keep 254 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,160 it the way it was. 255 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:14,519 Speaker 1: That's progressivism, huh. Keeping everything the way it was for 256 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:19,519 the sake of politics. I think that's shining through and 257 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,000 everything over the last four years. I want to talk 258 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:29,079 to you about, you know, where you hope to be 259 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:32,599 in the coming years. Our guest today is Justin Schubo, 260 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,039 as president of the National Civic Arts Society, a nonprofit 261 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,759 organization headquartered in Washington, d C. That promotes the classical 262 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,240 tradition in public art and architecture. He's also a finalist 263 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,279 for Chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts in 264 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:57,160 the upcoming Trump administration. There was an interesting column that 265 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,160 was written by John A. Bird for Wall Street to 266 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,920 Journal this just after the election at the end of November. 267 00:19:05,559 --> 00:19:10,000 John is the president of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, and 268 00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:14,440 the headline was Trump can restore honor to American art. 269 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,039 Federal arts and cultural organizations have spent decades funneling taxpayer 270 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:25,119 dollars into projects ranging from the profane to the inane. 271 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,039 And one need only think. 272 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:35,279 Speaker 5: About about Robert Maplethorpe and the creator of the audaciously 273 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,319 awful piss Christ if I can mention that from the 274 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,319 nineteen eighties. 275 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,039 Speaker 1: But there are myriad examples of the profane to the 276 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,400 inane over the last couple of decades in this country 277 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,880 as well. John writes in the piece, there are plenty 278 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:59,160 of other candidates better suited to restore honor to federal 279 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:03,799 arts and culture agencies. Justin Schubo, president of the National 280 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,680 Civic Arts Society, served on the US Commission of Fine 281 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,960 Arts during mister Trump's first term before becoming chairman in 282 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,440 twenty twenty one. He also notes that you played a 283 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,160 critical role in the President's classical architecture initiative and influenced 284 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,240 the designs of the Dwight Eisenhower in World War One memorials. 285 00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:28,000 He cites you specifically as a candidate who would indeed 286 00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:31,000 be better suited than what we've seen over the last 287 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:34,720 several years, including I might add, in the Trump administration. 288 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,720 As John points out in his column, I guess the 289 00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:45,920 question is it's understandable, but why do you seek this position. 290 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,319 Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to be presumptuous, but it would 291 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,599 be a true honor to serve the administration. 292 00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 3: It's important to understand. 293 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: That the national and dominant for the arts is the 294 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:03,680 large just funder of arts and arts education in the country. 295 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,200 Its annual budget is two hundred and ten million dollars, 296 00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:14,559 and I think for a long time Republicans have wanted 297 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:19,279 to eliminate the agency altogether. You know, you mentioned these 298 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,960 controversial pieces of art from the nineteen eighties that Republicans 299 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,720 have never forgotten, but I think a bigger issue in 300 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,839 the later decades has been that people do not see 301 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:36,720 the NEA as producing worthy art. I mean, my vision 302 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:41,759 for the NEA comes from Dana Joya, the talented poet 303 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,000 and translator, who said, a. 304 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 3: Great nation deserves great art. 305 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 2: In my view, the highest art is that which is beautiful, profound, 306 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,640 or moving, and when I go to a contemporary art museum, 307 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,440 that is not what I see. Whatsoever. What this country 308 00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:05,359 needs is a cultural renewal, a renaissance, and I would 309 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,920 like to think that the NEA could play a role 310 00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:09,640 in that. 311 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: We see over the years. You know, as you mentioned 312 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:20,279 the amount of money that has been spent on this 313 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:26,440 form of art. Maybe not inspirational to a lot of folks, 314 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,240 aspirational to a lot of folks, but the money keeps coming. 315 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:35,400 We're talking about for the key agencies that fund these programs. 316 00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:39,039 We're talking about over a billion dollars of taxpayer money. 317 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,279 And you brought it up. You know, the question is 318 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:47,240 why do we continue to fund these agencies to begin with? 319 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,359 And I asked that in context of you know, the 320 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,119 Department of Government Efficiency that is about to be run 321 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,279 by you know, Elon Musk and Vi Vicswami. They're looking 322 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,599 at ways to cut the budget, and as you mentioned, 323 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:06,960 there are a lot of conservatives who say, well, why 324 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:11,599 do we need these funding organizations at uh, you know, 325 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,400 for at the taxpayer's expense to begin with? 326 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,839 Speaker 2: Well, I turned to what Theodore Roosevelt said. He was 327 00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:26,039 greatly interested in the importance of art and architecture for 328 00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:30,480 the country, and he said, a national greatness that is 329 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:38,640 divorced from artistic production is but a one sided, malformed greatness. 330 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,279 Speaker 3: And I think when the NEA. 331 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 2: Was created in nineteen sixty five, there was this idea 332 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,440 that the federal government could use its money and power 333 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,440 to improve and sustain the arts in this country, So 334 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:56,039 I think as a highly noble goal. 335 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,599 Speaker 3: You know, two hundred and ten million dollars is real. 336 00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: Money, though you know, you could say on the other side, well, 337 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,559 it's not that much per capita in the United States, 338 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,000 and you know, you look to Europe and Europe spends 339 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:15,240 far more per citizen than we do on the patronage 340 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,920 of the arts. But if the NEA could help create 341 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,599 a cultural renaissance, then I think the money is absolutely 342 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:29,240 well spent. I mean, one of the things that I 343 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:33,039 would like to do is to create an initiative that 344 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:39,400 celebrates and fosters the grand tradition of American civic architecture, 345 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,119 going back to the founders, even farther back than the 346 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,359 Capitol in the White House, to the Virginia Capital designed 347 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,680 by Thomas Jefferson, which is inspired by an ancient Roman temple, 348 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,240 all the way continuing up to the twentieth century, with 349 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,720 buildings like the original Penn Station, which was this awe 350 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:09,720 inspiring temple for the people, also inspired by ancient Roman architecture. 351 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: So there is. 352 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:16,279 Speaker 2: Greatness that our country can achieve, and architecture, I think 353 00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:19,960 is a very interesting thing for the NEA to take 354 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,240 a look at since it cuts across the divide between 355 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,559 high culture and common culture. It's high culture in that, yes, 356 00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:35,960 architects are incredibly talented and studied individuals who understand all 357 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,920 sorts of practices and principles. 358 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,319 Speaker 3: But at the same. 359 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,279 Speaker 2: Time, the audience for our public buildings is the ordinary 360 00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:47,759 American and so thus I think it could be very 361 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,680 useful for the NEA to take a look at that. 362 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: As chairman of the NEA, how do you go about 363 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:01,759 resisting the name and profane as noted in the Wall 364 00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:05,079 Street Journal column. I mean, there's obviously there has been 365 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,559 over the years a great deal of pressure to let 366 00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:10,759 art be art for art's sake, and you know, whatever 367 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,880 means these these folks like to assign and then we 368 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,319 get some things where you know, the vast majority of 369 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,720 Americans are shaking their heads saying I paid for that. 370 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: Why Well, the ANYA chairman helps select the members of 371 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,480 these panels that review grant applications. 372 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: So you know, any competition is only. 373 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: As good as the jury, and the ANYA chairman can 374 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,680 play a role there. 375 00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: But at the very end of the process, the ANYA 376 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,799 chairman is. 377 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 2: The one who either approves or disapproves a particular grant, 378 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,839 so that gives the chairman a lot of power to 379 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,039 make sure that the American people are not funding are 380 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,839 that barely any of them like or appreciate. 381 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: You mentioned the architectural side of things. Obviously the NEA 382 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,720 is involved in wide facets of the world of esthetics 383 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:17,480 and art. What else would you like to see inside 384 00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:22,400 the NEA as it approaches the grant funding two hundred 385 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,640 and ten million dollars as you mentioned. 386 00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 3: Sure so. 387 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,759 Speaker 2: Dana Joya, who I previously mentioned, was nyhair under George W. 388 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 3: Bush, and he. 389 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: Started this wonderful initiative called the Big Read to encourage 390 00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:44,000 Americans to read in their communities together at the same 391 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:48,119 time some of the great classics of our literature. And 392 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,359 at the time there were four books that were options. 393 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 3: For people to read, one of them being. 394 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: Fahrenheit four fifty one another one Their Eyes Were Wide 395 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,200 God by. 396 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,599 Speaker 3: Zora o' neil Hurston. 397 00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:10,839 Speaker 2: But starting in the Obama administration, the book selections became 398 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:16,759 much more focused on contemporary trendy books with an emphasis 399 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,640 on identity politics, and. 400 00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 3: That has continued to this day. 401 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:27,039 Speaker 2: I would like to return the Big Read to its 402 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:31,839 original state, focusing on classics that have stood the test 403 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:32,599 of time. 404 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,799 Speaker 1: That's a very good point because literature, obviously in so 405 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,000 many facets of art have been so tied to the 406 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:51,759 DEI diversity, equity and inclusion forces in America over the 407 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:56,599 last decade decade and a half or so. What is 408 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:03,240 your stance on DEI in in arts and funding of 409 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,920 the arts and where do you think we need to 410 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,480 go from that vantage point? 411 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: Well, DEI is plagued. 412 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,039 Speaker 2: Where the grants approved by the NEA have been plagued 413 00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:23,440 by DEI. I mean you can just do a search 414 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:27,400 for certain key terms in the in the any Grand 415 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,640 database and there are dozens and dozens of DEI grants 416 00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:35,359 and in fact then A has a general policy. 417 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,759 Speaker 3: For DEI and equity in the grants process. 418 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: I think, by contrast, that the grants should be awarded 419 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,720 solely according to artistic merit artistic excellence. 420 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like excellencerit meritocracy has been driven out 421 00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:05,319 of this process again for a number of years. How 422 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:09,960 do you get back to that given that everything in 423 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,079 this system, or much in this system seems to be 424 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:22,960 so immersed in diversity, equity, inclusion, identity politics agenda. 425 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: Well, you set up the whole system so that DEI 426 00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:32,960 is irrelevant that the panels reviewing the grants focused on 427 00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:36,640 artistic merit artistic excellence. I think those are the actual 428 00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:42,440 terms used in the NEA's authorizing legislation. So we make 429 00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:48,359 this a meritocracy and you know, may the best people 430 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,559 and organizations win. 431 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,799 Speaker 1: It's a good point, But how do you go up 432 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,839 against you know, the usual suspects on the left and 433 00:30:57,079 --> 00:31:01,720 the accomplice media. They've already been painting the whole idea 434 00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:06,079 of where you see in states like Florida, Iowa comes 435 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:10,279 to mind, and several others where they've said, no, we're 436 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:15,039 not going to have child porn in our k through 437 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:23,119 twelve libraries. That's not banning books. That's understanding that there's 438 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:28,720 age appropriate content in that we don't want stories about 439 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:36,160 dominatrixes and drag queens or drag queens coming to our 440 00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:40,599 first grade library sessions. I mean, how do you get 441 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:44,240 that kind of stuff out while, you know, going up 442 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:48,759 against the whole narrative. Oh, they're just banning books, that's 443 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:50,720 all it is. They're just book banners. 444 00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: Well, the NEA can only control so much. The chairman 445 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,720 overseas the grants. It's not as if the NEA can 446 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:07,720 go out across the country and scrub away everything. Sure, 447 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,279 that's gone wrong, But I think it's fair to say 448 00:32:11,359 --> 00:32:16,160 that there is a vibe shift in this country going 449 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,400 on regarding DEI. You know, looking at all the corporations 450 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:25,680 that are eliminating DEI programs. Now, admittedly, the arts world, 451 00:32:26,359 --> 00:32:30,400 its politics are not just on the left, but you know, 452 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,440 it can be on the on the far left. But 453 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,240 the NEA has its area of control, and it ought 454 00:32:38,279 --> 00:32:40,119 to be a meritocracy. 455 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: Then when we say the NEA, the National Endowment for 456 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:51,200 the Arts, and we've kind of talked about it, it 457 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,839 is in need of restoration. It is in need of 458 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,640 restoring its reputation and value to the American taxpayer. That 459 00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,160 is a real problem, the perception of the American taxpayer, 460 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,079 and I think in many ways rightly so is the 461 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,480 NEA has been so immersed in leftist, sometimes Marxist politics 462 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:17,720 that it's not worth salvaging. How do you go up 463 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,519 against that kind of reputation. 464 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the agendas of this coming 465 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:30,240 administration is make America beautiful again. There is a kind 466 00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:35,079 of optimism that we're seeing, and I think we should 467 00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:37,920 be optimistic about American culture. 468 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 3: Instead of saying, oh, the NEA. 469 00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: Is hopeless, let's get rid of it. I think we 470 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,839 can reorient it. I mean people used to say, for instance, 471 00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:53,440 that federal architecture was hopeless. Years ago, when my organization 472 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:56,720 was getting off the ground, I met with a leading 473 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:01,839 classic architect talking about armbit to change the direction of 474 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,079 federal design, and he said, Oh, that's completely hopeless. That's 475 00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:08,880 going to be like trying to turn around an aircraft carrier. 476 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,599 But we proved him wrong. We proved him wrong. President 477 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:15,679 Trump had the vision and was willing to spend the 478 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,800 political capital to do it. And so why can't we 479 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,599 see similar positive results from the cultural agencies such as 480 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,280 the National Endowment for the Arts. 481 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: It's a good point, justin you're obviously very passionate about this. 482 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,960 I don't think we may have in this conversation if 483 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,280 you weren't passionate about this, I don't think you're you're you. 484 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,079 You would have chosen the path that you have chosen 485 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,960 without that passion. Where where did all of this begin 486 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,000 for you? How? How what shaped you in terms of 487 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:53,920 your passion for uh, you know, for architecture, classical design, 488 00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:54,800 art in general. 489 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:02,039 Speaker 2: Well, I think my interest when I was in graduate school. 490 00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:06,360 I was studying philosophy, and I came to read people 491 00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:13,440 like Roger Scrutin, the great conservative British philosopher. People know 492 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:16,800 him for his work in political philosophy, but he also 493 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,760 wrote extensively on architecture. 494 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 3: And I read him and others, and I came. 495 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: To see how architecture is the mirror in which a 496 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:33,079 civilization sees itself, and buildings are unlike a painting in 497 00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:36,519 a museum or a sculpture in someone's house. They are 498 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,840 inherently public, they are forced upon us, and so therefore 499 00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:46,039 they are small p political, unlike all of the other arts. 500 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: And I had long. 501 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: Time believed that our world had become much uglier after 502 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:57,559 World War Two, when we got the advent of modernism, 503 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,559 I mean modernism began after World Were One in Europe, 504 00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:06,119 when all these artists and architects felt like their civilization 505 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,519 had self destructed, they were demortalized, and they wished to 506 00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:12,960 create a new world based. 507 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 3: On a new social order. 508 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: And that has been embodied in our architecture or far 509 00:36:21,039 --> 00:36:25,400 too long, and in recent years we're even getting nihilistic architecture. 510 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:31,480 You'll have architects openly saying that they're nihilists. By contrast, 511 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:36,000 great buildings ought to make us feel at home in 512 00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:39,360 the world. They should uplift us, They should give us 513 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,639 a sense of the existence of the true, the beautiful, 514 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,519 and the good. So there is this philosophical component to 515 00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:52,599 architecture that is important on Buildings are essential whether or 516 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:56,800 not people are consciously thinking about them. They're influencing how 517 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,599 we think and feel all the time. 518 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: It seems to me it gets back to a philosophical struggle. 519 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,239 For you, what is at the core of all that 520 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,199 you've accomplished, what you do, and what you would like 521 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,400 to do, And that is there is a movement in 522 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,199 America and the world that sees everything as dark and 523 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,480 evil and brutal, as we mentioned before, and it forsakes 524 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:29,719 the beauty that is inherent in the world. That's what 525 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,440 it seems like to me. Do you define it that 526 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:36,199 way in terms of how you approach your work and 527 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:41,000 how you would approach your work as chairman at NEA. 528 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. 529 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: And President Trump has the right vision, he said at 530 00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:52,159 Seapack in twenty twenty three. We will get rid of 531 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,679 bad and ugly buildings and build in the magnificent classical 532 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,280 style of Western civilization. We should be proud of who 533 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,079 we are, proud of our culture, and we need art 534 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:16,079 and architecture that enhances America's greatness, enhances our prestige. 535 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,039 Speaker 1: No doubt about it. And these are times more than 536 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:22,559 ever I think we're the country and its citizens are 537 00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:26,599 crying out for that beauty, a return to it, and 538 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,719 the sense of hope that was involved in it as well. 539 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,920 Final question on that front, it's difficult to do all 540 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,159 of this under the context of the far left in 541 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,000 this country, which really, let's face it, is running Democrat 542 00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:44,960 politics in America and the people in corporate media who 543 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:52,760 keep painting Donald Trump as the darkest of tyrants, you know, 544 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,840 equating him to Adolf Hitler and fascist, and that is 545 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,199 their worldview. They lost on that worldview. By the way, 546 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,519 Americans did not buy that. They certainly looked at what 547 00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:10,119 was happening with the Democrat Party, with the Biden administration 548 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,800 going after targeting their political number one political opponent, with 549 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,199 a lawfare, with a politically weaponized justice Department, and they 550 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,400 see the world differently the majority of voters in this country. 551 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:30,400 But you will have to go up against that constant 552 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,840 push from the left in this country, which still while 553 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,519 it has lost a good deal of its power in 554 00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,800 the last election, still will make plenty of trouble, that's 555 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:44,239 for sure. 556 00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:49,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I am optimistic. 557 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,159 Speaker 2: I mean when it came to architecture, for instance, President 558 00:39:53,199 --> 00:39:58,239 Trump took on the entire architectural establishment and he won. 559 00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:03,719 I think that big things can happen in the world 560 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,400 of arts as well. We need to be optimistic. There 561 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:14,280 is hope. There have been revivals and renaissances in the 562 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,559 past when it comes to culture, and there's every reason 563 00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:21,920 for thinking that one can occur thanks to the new administration. 564 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: Very good, Well, I very much enjoyed our conversation, very 565 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,199 much appreciate your time. I wish you the very best 566 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,840 of luck moving forward and certainly in the coming weeks 567 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,039 as you move through this process. 568 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for having me. 569 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,039 Speaker 1: Absolutely thanks again to my guest today, justin Shuba, president 570 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,199 of the National Civic Arts Society, candidate for Chair of 571 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,239 the National Endowment for the Arts. You've been listening to 572 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,119 another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, 573 00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:54,920 senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon 574 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,119 with more. Until then, stay lovers, of freedom. I'm anxious 575 00:40:59,119 --> 00:40:59,639 for the frame. 576 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 2: I heard the fame, voice the reason, and then it 577 00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:12,480 faded away. 578 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:17,039 Speaker 3: M hm.