1
00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:39,439
Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the

2
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,920
episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond

3
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,679
the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to

4
00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:52,359
explain something right now. If you support me through substack

5
00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,039
or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that

6
00:00:57,119 --> 00:01:01,600
you can plug into any podcatcher, including Apple, and you'll

7
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,560
be able to listen to the episodes through there. If

8
00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:08,480
you support me through subscribe, star gum Road, or on

9
00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:12,079
my website directly, I will send you a link where

10
00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:14,439
you can download the file and you can listen to

11
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,799
it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support

12
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,120
everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It allows

13
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,319
me to basically put out an episode every day now,

14
00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:28,439
and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate.

15
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,159
I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two

16
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:37,400
even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without you,

17
00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:40,239
So thank you for the support. Head on over to

18
00:01:40,239 --> 00:01:44,519
Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and

19
00:01:44,599 --> 00:01:49,480
do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone

20
00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:53,640
back to the Pekingana Show. Josh Neil is back after

21
00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:56,560
a long hiatus. What's happening, Josh?

22
00:01:56,879 --> 00:01:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good to be back. I appreciate the invitation.

23
00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:02,920
As I was saying to you before we went live,

24
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,480
this is live, I think.

25
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well now we're we're recording, we're just hanging out

26
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:08,120
you and Nick.

27
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,479
Speaker 2: However, as I was saying before, I had to what's

28
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,439
the saying, I had to get my ducks in a row,

29
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,280
and I did and it was good because it helped

30
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,599
me put a lot of things into focus. And I

31
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,319
feel like a lot of my energy in this space,

32
00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,719
this community has gotten like laser focused, much narrower, much

33
00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:31,960
more refined. Like I'm so much happier with my writing,

34
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,199
and that's obviously what we're here to talk about. So, yeah,

35
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,400
thanks for asking me on.

36
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely so. I've done as much as I can

37
00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:49,199
to stay away from this topic in my in my

38
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,759
episodes in my sub stack, I bring it up here

39
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,159
and there. But the thing I liked about and we're

40
00:02:56,159 --> 00:03:00,479
talking about the woke, right, something that it looks like

41
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,039
James Lindsay might have came up with, and you know,

42
00:03:03,199 --> 00:03:05,719
and then a bunch of other midwits are running with

43
00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:09,680
like Constantine Kissing and people like that. And the reason

44
00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:12,280
I decided I wanted to talk about it is because

45
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,840
after I read your substack about it that UNS picked up.

46
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,479
I was, you come at it from a completely different

47
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,159
angle than most people. Most people are like here, you're

48
00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:26,120
coming at it from actually a historical angle and comparing

49
00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:29,159
it to something that's happened in the past. So what

50
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,120
was what was your reaction the first time you heard

51
00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:33,479
the term woke right?

52
00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 2: Well, it made me think of and I wrote this

53
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,719
in the essay, but it made me think of when

54
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,439
people started using SJW against Trump people back in the day.

55
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,560
I mean, I was, I'm you know, we're both not

56
00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:53,560
spring chickens per se. We were both like fully formed

57
00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:56,319
adults ten years ago, so we have a really good

58
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,879
memory of like who the players were, what ideas were at,

59
00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:03,680
where the culture was moving. And you know, I wasn't

60
00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:08,400
alt right or nationalist or anything until after basically Election

61
00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:11,240
Day twenty sixteen, but I was online and I followed

62
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,280
all the memes. I followed all the stuff that kind

63
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,040
of trickled upwards to YouTube and like Stefan Molyneux and

64
00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,639
people like that and or Scott Adams, and so I

65
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,240
remember the anti SJW moment. I guess some people who

66
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,000
were plugged into gamor Gate would say, you know, it

67
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,879
had something to do with that too, And so I remember,

68
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240
like for a couple of years like twenty ten to

69
00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:38,399
twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, like social JUSTICEE, social justice stat

70
00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:41,480
social justice Warrior. And then the moment that there was

71
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,680
the Trump Right came in and was starting to really

72
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,560
be effective pushing back against all of the crazy late

73
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,879
Obama era politics, suddenly that got turned around on people

74
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,519
like me who were just like, you know, I thought

75
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,800
I was just being like a rational, normal person, like

76
00:04:58,959 --> 00:05:02,639
enormy with like head on a swivel. But now suddenly

77
00:05:02,639 --> 00:05:05,519
it's like, oh, now we're going to turn this rhetoric

78
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,839
back around on you, because now we've got to control you,

79
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,439
like like we've scapegoaded all these people who are now

80
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,120
out and now you're the problem, and so we're gonna

81
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,519
throw it at you. So it made me think of

82
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,800
when SJW was turned on the right wing, and so

83
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,439
my first thought after that, or my second thought, I guess,

84
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,199
was just like, Okay, this is just a slur, like

85
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,120
this is very obviously a smear to again kind of

86
00:05:32,399 --> 00:05:35,319
go after the harder wing of the Trump right, but

87
00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:40,759
also to go after like real nationalists, real identitarians, or

88
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,399
real conservatives, real Christians basically people with a spine and

89
00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:48,600
a backbone who are willing to call a spade a spade.

90
00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:52,319
And I'm not going to play euphemistic word games and

91
00:05:52,399 --> 00:05:56,639
step around the thorny issues. So those are my first thoughts.

92
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,319
And then I also kind of thought it wouldn't stick.

93
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,160
But he but James Lindsay has like really like a

94
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,160
dog with a bone, he just keeps He's kept putting

95
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,959
it back out there to the point where he started

96
00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:12,959
building like a coalition with that the trigonometry people. And

97
00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:15,040
then when that I guess this would have been a

98
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,720
week ago, maybe a week and a day when that

99
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,639
clip went on Twitter, like there's a light bulb moment,

100
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,879
I was like, Oh, this is because he actually explained

101
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,000
what he meant by woke, right. He gave this whole

102
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,800
sort of counter narrative against our worldview. And I was like, oh,

103
00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:36,160
I know what you're doing now, Like you're actually trying

104
00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:41,360
to put forth this other worldview and this this is familiar.

105
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:42,639
I've seen this movie before.

106
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,439
Speaker 1: What I thought is most interesting about it was it

107
00:06:47,519 --> 00:06:51,920
was coming from somebody and then adopted by other people

108
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,360
who were I didn't leave the left. The left left

109
00:06:56,439 --> 00:07:03,040
meet people, and you normally when something like this happens,

110
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,319
it's usually the quote unquote right wing that's doing it.

111
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,800
You know, Joanah Goldberg putting out liberal fascism or something

112
00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:14,639
like that, so he can accuse anybody who's you know,

113
00:07:14,759 --> 00:07:19,160
to the right of eleanor Roosevelt of being a fascist.

114
00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:23,319
And yeah, that's what I saw. It's like, okay, so

115
00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:31,199
this is like IDW adjacent you know, intellectual dork web

116
00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:37,399
people adjacent who And the first thing I thought was, lindsay,

117
00:07:37,839 --> 00:07:42,759
he's just grasping because he's kind of irrelevant. He's blown

118
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,360
his load on what he does. Okay, you explain to

119
00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:50,879
a bunch of people who are too you know, are

120
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,600
too offended by Paul Gottfried to go read what he

121
00:07:53,639 --> 00:07:55,680
wrote twenty five years ago where he could tell you

122
00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:58,560
exactly what this whole woke stuff is. And he was

123
00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:03,160
a prophet back then, and he's writing two right wingers.

124
00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:06,920
But you know, right wingers always want the approval of

125
00:08:06,959 --> 00:08:09,000
the left. They don't want the approval of anybody to

126
00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:12,759
their right, because you know that those are just Nazis.

127
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,439
But yeah, that was the thing that it was these

128
00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:22,399
the those left. The left left me people. You cannot

129
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,279
entertain them, you cannot give them the time of day,

130
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,560
you cannot platform them. They will always stab you in

131
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,159
the back. I don't how the fuck people don't know this.

132
00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:36,840
I did that with somebody with like one specific person

133
00:08:36,879 --> 00:08:39,919
in the past, one specific person I did that with

134
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,559
in my libertarian days, and I learned, deleted all those episodes, repented,

135
00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:47,519
and it's like, it's not gonna happen if I have

136
00:08:47,519 --> 00:08:50,120
a leftist on, it's going to be a leftist who's

137
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,080
not here to talk about leftism or rightism. They're an

138
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,240
expert on like Ukraine or something like that. You know, So,

139
00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,799
isn't it weird? Isn't it weird that it's the left

140
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,039
life the left left us? Guys?

141
00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:07,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about that last night, and the

142
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:14,559
thing that I guess there's two things that makes that suspect. One,

143
00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,200
these are not people with agency, so it's not like

144
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,919
they that's it's it's in the phrase the left. I

145
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,840
didn't leave the left. The left left me. In other words,

146
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,320
you were totally fine with the way everything was happening,

147
00:09:27,639 --> 00:09:30,279
the direction the country was going, in the way your

148
00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:34,360
own party operated, but actually your party wasn't happy with it.

149
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,240
Your party was like, we don't need you anymore. So

150
00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:39,879
these are not agency. These are not people with agency.

151
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,120
Like they didn't come to this Eureka moment where they

152
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,000
suddenly realized that that they were, you know, on the

153
00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:49,320
wrong side of history or whatever. So and they also

154
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,519
like don't have any self reflective ability either. They just

155
00:09:53,639 --> 00:09:55,559
they think that they were always in the right and

156
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,120
you know, they were always morally correct, not politically right,

157
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,919
and that the left just got too wacky. But really

158
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,000
what happened was the left, you know, left progressive liberalism,

159
00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,840
had somewhere else that wanted to go, had scheduled to

160
00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:15,679
keep up with we got to get to the next stop.

161
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,039
We have to wage the next battle in the culture war.

162
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,879
And and now you know, the left left me. Those

163
00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:26,879
people are now just they're the latest scapegoats. And that's

164
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,639
kind of what like the same thing with the SJW thing.

165
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,519
It's like, Okay, clearly Trump comes in, the political culture

166
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,799
is different. We need somebody to hold the bag for us,

167
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,919
and we'll dump it on BuzzFeed, We'll dump it on Vox,

168
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,159
will dump it on blue haired crazies we'll dump it

169
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,279
on people that are not useful to us anymore. And

170
00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:53,679
that's the same thing with Woke. It's like, okays, as

171
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,240
people are saying on Twitter, you know, Woke was defeated

172
00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:00,399
at the ballot box. I don't asterisk as risk. I

173
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,600
don't totally condone that statement, but just for the sake

174
00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:08,000
of conversation, you know, things are different and some people

175
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,159
have to go. The regime has to kind of cut

176
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,240
some dead weight in order to pivot whatever is going

177
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:16,960
to happen over the next four years. It has to

178
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,879
do something different, and that means getting rid of things

179
00:11:19,919 --> 00:11:23,919
that don't work anymore. And so this Woke Left thing

180
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,600
is just it's now a scapegoat that lots of people

181
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,879
in the establishment are, whether cynically or honestly or whatever,

182
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,559
are willing to dispose of and maybe even look at

183
00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:38,399
a little bit critically so they can sacrifice that. Now

184
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,639
you can call the new enemies, which is people like us,

185
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,080
people who put Trump in office, people who liked Project

186
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,840
twenty twenty five, so on and so forth, people who

187
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,080
are supporting Daniel Penny. By the way, he just beat

188
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,639
another count today. So we need to be dealt with

189
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,480
and they've got this convenient. Just as a final thought

190
00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:05,200
is I kind of admire the way that the system

191
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,279
really can repurpose everything that happens, Like they can turn

192
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,759
a bad thing into a good thing. So like Woke

193
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,320
was this horse that they rode into or rode in,

194
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,240
you know, rode into power on and then it became

195
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,200
something that was not feasible for them anymore or problematic,

196
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,399
but it still has a use for them. It's still

197
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,559
so it's still a cudgel they can beat us with.

198
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,759
So I just I think there's something kind of darkly

199
00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:34,919
funny about that. But yeah, those are my thoughts.

200
00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: Something you said there about how there was a it

201
00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:43,200
was a train there. You know, Leftism is this train

202
00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:46,759
and it's moving and it took a direction. It went

203
00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:49,600
in a direction that they they didn't want to follow,

204
00:12:49,639 --> 00:12:52,960
where they had to get off. Yeah. I've been reading

205
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,679
this book The Demon and Democracy by Raizard Labutko, and

206
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,279
he talks about this. He's he basically says, if you

207
00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:03,879
have a political ideology that is a path that it's

208
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,879
you're going somewhere with it, if it's not like you're

209
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,720
seizing power and saying stop, this is who we are.

210
00:13:12,279 --> 00:13:18,360
We we're t we're tradcath we're you know right, we're

211
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,240
right wingers, we're national socialists. Where whatever the fuck it is,

212
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,600
if you're not if you're not taking power to say

213
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,919
this is where, if you're looking at a path going forward,

214
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,080
you're a liberal. You're trying, you're trying to move in

215
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,279
a direction to make things better and better and better. No,

216
00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:40,639
there's already some that's not the goal of politics. That

217
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,559
should be like your personal life. That should be your

218
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,799
church life. Maybe your church wants to has goals, but

219
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,000
your politics can't have goals. Your politics have to be

220
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:55,159
something that stays in one place and protects you so

221
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,759
that you and it's not trying to move you anywhere.

222
00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:01,440
Because if it's trying to move view somewhere, you have

223
00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:03,159
to go with it. If you don't go with it,

224
00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:05,120
if you decide to go with it, now you're on

225
00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,399
the path of it going left or right or everywhere,

226
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,159
and you're basically screwed.

227
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,279
Speaker 2: Yeah I agree, Yeah, So all right.

228
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,559
Speaker 1: In the article, and here's the thing that I think

229
00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:27,159
you brought up that really no one else has brought up.

230
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,919
You had a heading called the New Paranoid Style, and

231
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,960
you bring up Richard Hofstetter. Why don't you get into

232
00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:41,120
exactly why you bring up Hovstetter and how you relate

233
00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:42,200
it to this wook right thing.

234
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I this is a kind of a convenient

235
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,000
thing for me because I've been reading up on the

236
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,720
post war consensus the last couple of years for a

237
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,600
lot of my writing, and it started with Carl Popper.

238
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,679
Last time we spoke, I think, which was back in February,

239
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,639
was just before my new book. My most recent book

240
00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:06,559
came out called Understanding Conspiracy Theories, and it was very

241
00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:09,919
much based on the idea that a big part of

242
00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:14,679
contemporary conspiratorial culture has to do with the development of

243
00:15:14,679 --> 00:15:18,519
the post war consensus. And James Lindsay on his recent

244
00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:23,279
Trigonometry appearance, and this I considered to be a major

245
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,799
own goal, like a crazy faux pas. He went ahead

246
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,679
and he basically spilled the beans on our worldview, and

247
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,840
he said it in half the time it takes us

248
00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:38,279
to say it. He said it, maybe more articulately than

249
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,879
a lot of us can say it. He named a

250
00:15:40,879 --> 00:15:43,519
lot of the players involved. I mean, he showed all

251
00:15:43,559 --> 00:15:45,639
of the receipts. It was really kind of impressive. It's

252
00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:49,039
like if you wanted the elevator pitch for the radical

253
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,759
right or the nationalist right, like you could clip out

254
00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:55,480
that section. And he talks about how well the woke

255
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,120
right believes in this thing called the post the kooky

256
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,879
post war consensus, this crazy the idea of a post

257
00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:04,600
war consensus. And I had been reading about Richard Hofstadter,

258
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,679
who was a celebrated historian throughout the forties and fifties.

259
00:16:08,879 --> 00:16:13,000
He's a New Yorker like me. He's from Buffalo, ethnically Jewish,

260
00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:18,639
but American, and he was an avowed American liberal. In

261
00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:21,720
his youth, he was a Marxist. Like a lot of

262
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,679
people at that time, he was a Marxist. I believe

263
00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:28,559
he may have even been affiliated with the American Communist Party.

264
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,600
And like a lot of people of his ilk at

265
00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:37,159
that time, when communism in Russia changed moved in a

266
00:16:37,159 --> 00:16:42,080
more Stalinist direction, people like Hofstatter said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa,

267
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,879
this is the left leaving me kind of thing like

268
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,360
WHOA pumped the brakes, dude, we don't want to do this.

269
00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:51,200
And you know, my suspicion, which I think is born

270
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,799
out historically, has a lot to do with the fact

271
00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:58,080
that Stalin moved Russia into a more kind of ethnic,

272
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:04,480
sort of nationalistic, sort of traditional culture due to moving

273
00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:07,319
into a wartime footing, due to all kinds of things

274
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,640
that were happening, and so it wasn't Bolshevism anymore. It

275
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,680
wasn't Leninism anymore. It wasn't what the kinds of things

276
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,680
that people like cough stat Are saw in it. It

277
00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:23,039
wasn't that intensely liberalizing political force that it was early on,

278
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:24,960
because when Lenin came in, and I'm not a historian,

279
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,200
I don't really have the greatest understanding of Soviet Russia,

280
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,559
but you know, some of the things that Lenin and

281
00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:33,640
the Bolsheviks did when they first came in was liberalize

282
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,759
a lot of things abortion, marriage laws, you know, sexuality,

283
00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:43,359
sexual ethics, things that look a lot like what liberalism

284
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,599
has done here and around the world is what happened there.

285
00:17:46,599 --> 00:17:49,039
And so obviously people like hof Status sought that and

286
00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:53,440
they said, hey, that's great. Stalin comes in, changes the

287
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,400
direction of things more religious, more ethnic, more chauvinistic, more

288
00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:02,119
chest thumping. You know, he's a Georgian bank robber Stalin,

289
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,759
so he's a he's a strong man, and that didn't

290
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:09,000
appeal to people like cop Statter, so Opstatter pivots, disavows

291
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:15,400
his Communists past and disavows his history, his historic material

292
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,400
history history. I forget what the phrase is, the Marxist

293
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,160
kind of genealogical method, historical materialism.

294
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 1: He disavows dict dialectical materialism.

295
00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, and he starts moving in this

296
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,000
direction of what's called consensus history now at the time

297
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,559
in the United States, consensus history. Again, this has been

298
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,359
thirties forties roundabout. There was how a lot of historians

299
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,799
viewed history. That's how they did a lot of their

300
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,839
history writing. Charles A. Beard being a good example of this.

301
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,880
Charles A Beard basically kind of put forth his own,

302
00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:57,519
if you want to say, like I say this, very

303
00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:01,480
very loosely, sort of his own American spin on what

304
00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:05,920
people might think of as a kind of Marxist historiography.

305
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:13,359
Because he emphasized economic class conflict, not using Marxist language,

306
00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:17,680
not on Marxist terms, not without other Marxist baggage, he's

307
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,359
often been confused or interpreted as a Marxist historian. As

308
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,119
far as I can tell, that's not the case. But anyway,

309
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:32,720
Hofstadter comes in and he makes some alterations, adjustments to

310
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,559
this beard and hypothesis, and as a result, he's kind

311
00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:41,359
of given he's branded as the new face of consensus history.

312
00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:48,039
And he's looking at things like educational reform over the

313
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:50,799
course of American history. He's looking at things like the

314
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:55,200
emergence of populist parties over the course of American history.

315
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,839
He's looking at things like gun rights, the gun culture

316
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,000
in the United States, and as is relevant to this essay,

317
00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:05,960
in the nineteen sixties, he's looking at what he called

318
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,960
pseudo conservatism, which would have been at that time, the

319
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,799
Barry Goldwater presidential candidacy, the John Birch Society, it would

320
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:19,680
have been McCarthy and the Red Scares. And he's calling

321
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,839
this pseudo conservatism. It's his way of sort of smearing

322
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,200
the most populist wing of the American right at his time,

323
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,039
in the same way that James Lindsay is doing today

324
00:20:34,039 --> 00:20:38,160
with this idea of the woke right. And he's basically

325
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,640
saying that, well, you have this group of people who

326
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:48,119
are engaging in a sort of analysis of power relations,

327
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,240
but they're doing it because they're parochial, backwoods yokels who

328
00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:57,119
are paranoid and mentally ill. And that was the essay

329
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,519
Paranoid Style and American Politics, talking about the John Birch Society,

330
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,359
talking about Barry Goldwater, talking about all this kind of

331
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:08,799
aggressive conservative energy that was developing at that time, which

332
00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:11,240
of course they needed to do something with. They didn't

333
00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:14,160
want that to become hegemonic in the United States. When

334
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,319
I say they, I mean the progressive liberals, other factions

335
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,960
in the United States at that time. So that eventually

336
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,839
got published a year later in a collection of essays,

337
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,200
and I just it just looks that there's a couple

338
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,359
of things in the way that Hofstadter presented his case

339
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:40,200
that was just very similar to me as to how

340
00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:43,880
James Lindsay presented his picture of the woke right. In

341
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:50,119
both cases, they're they're they're presenting the narrative from the

342
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,359
point of view of their opposition. In the case of

343
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,920
James Lindsay, he's walking us through the development of the

344
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,000
post war consensus, is walking us through Bill Buckley in

345
00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:04,920
the National Review, kicking out the real conservatives. He's he's

346
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,319
he's name dropping all of these intellectuals who are blacklisted

347
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,880
from kind of academia and the popular culture, like Karl Schmidt.

348
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:17,160
But then at the very end of it, after basically

349
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,000
laying out all the facts and laying out all the receipts,

350
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,680
he just says, but it's woke. But all of this

351
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,440
truth okay, okay, okay, okay, but it's woke. Now forget

352
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,839
about it, which is basically what Hofsteddter did. He's talking

353
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:37,839
about the ethnic replacement of German Irish Catholics and Anglo

354
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,839
Saxon Protestants. He's talking about well, he's talking about the

355
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,240
John Birch Society and the resistance against communists. He's talking

356
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:50,640
about Robert Welch in the Birch Society, he's talking about McCarthy,

357
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,920
and he's laying out these facts. And then at the

358
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,960
very end of it, when we have at the pivotal

359
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,160
moment where you have to either say, like, they're right,

360
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,480
we should do X as a result of the he says,

361
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,400
but they're paranoid, and so we can swipe it under

362
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,160
the rug and it's illegitimate and it doesn't matter. And

363
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,880
they're all crazy kooks, and they're all parochial. They've got

364
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,400
their their pitchforks and their torches, and they don't really

365
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,039
know anything. And there's some really really remarkable things. He

366
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,000
says in the book, Like he uses the example, I

367
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:24,039
don't know if you're one of these people that gets

368
00:23:24,079 --> 00:23:26,920
into this kind of stuff, but he brings up floride

369
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,519
in the water supply. I'm just like, I'm just familiar

370
00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:35,039
with yeh. So he says. There's one passage where he says,

371
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,680
and this is very Lakanian. Lacan Is a French was

372
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:46,519
a French psychoanalyst. There's a famous quote attributed to him. Uh,

373
00:23:46,599 --> 00:23:48,720
if your wife is cheating on you, if you if

374
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,960
you fear that, even if you let me walk it back,

375
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,359
if you fear that your wife is cheating on you

376
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,480
and she is, you're still paranoid for worrying about it.

377
00:23:57,519 --> 00:23:59,559
Like so to chew on that for a second, Like

378
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,440
that's a crazy kind of statement to make. Hofstetter does

379
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,240
the same thing. He's like, even if the government put

380
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:11,839
fluoride in the water supply as a form of social control,

381
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,000
political control, and they were doing it to buttress a

382
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,079
larger socialist agenda, you would be crazy for thinking that.

383
00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:22,960
And now you read that in twenty twenty four, and

384
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,599
it's like we've for like twenty years or more, we're

385
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,519
reading all of these reports about well, that's what happened,

386
00:24:28,759 --> 00:24:31,880
and that's why it happened. It's like, not only did

387
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,240
they put fluoride in the water supply, but they did

388
00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:38,799
it for this kind of biopolitical demographic control along the

389
00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:43,880
way towards rolling out this comprehensive socialist agenda. It's just

390
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,079
like that's really really crazy to read after the fact.

391
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:53,200
But yeah, so in addition to this kind of comprehensive

392
00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:58,640
narrative and the use of a pejorative, I just think

393
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,480
that there's a I lay out some of arguments in

394
00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:01,599
the essay two. I don't know if you want to

395
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:03,640
get to them, but those are just the most remarkable

396
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,880
things that allowed me to draw that comparison.

397
00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we get to the other arguments. I

398
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,640
just wanted to say. It's what's funny is as Lindsay

399
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:18,119
is listing all of these things which are historical facts,

400
00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:29,640
painting that them as conspiracy theory, these things.

401
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:39,759
Speaker 2: For a second. Yeah, you wrote it out pretty badly.

402
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,319
Speaker 1: Okay, so let me let me start that again. So

403
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,680
one of the things Lindsay did that just was he's

404
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,880
listing all these things, and he's listing all these people

405
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,119
and he's trying to present it as a conspiracy theory.

406
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:58,079
Yet like all the people he's mentioning are writing that

407
00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:00,799
they're doing these things, are right, think these that these

408
00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:04,319
things have happened, are saying there is a postwar consensus,

409
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,839
are bragging about the fact that they've changed the the

410
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:15,000
social and political habits of the American public, and that

411
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,119
I think the thing with Lindsay is is that he

412
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,319
realizes he's losing and that and that his classical liberalism.

413
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,119
I remember he had this tweet and I think it's

414
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,079
the tweet that got me blocked because he said, the

415
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,640
only thing that can defeat the left, the woke on

416
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,880
the left, is classical liberalism, and classical liberalism hasn't even

417
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,960
gotten started yet. And my comment was, so what you're

418
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,039
saying is real. Classical liberalism has never been tried. And

419
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,920
you know, and this was at a time when he

420
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:59,559
was attacking Paul Gottfried as woke and Paul Gottfried said

421
00:26:59,599 --> 00:27:04,559
on my show, and like, people didn't hear it. People said, no,

422
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:06,319
Paul said this. I'm like, go back and listen to

423
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,920
what he said. Paul Godfrey said, the only thing that

424
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:16,759
is going to defeat this left authoritarianism is right wing authoritarianism.

425
00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:19,799
And I agree with him that that is the only

426
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,160
thing that reverses the post war consensus is to the

427
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,880
one thing that actually that they were actually fighting against,

428
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,880
that the whole war had good, the whole world had

429
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,200
to go war against. You know, back back in time

430
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,480
when the post war consensus was in the in the

431
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,799
in the in the the mid war years between the wars,

432
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,400
when it was starting to formulate and people were literally

433
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,559
fighting back. I mean, you had new political movements rising

434
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:52,039
to fight against it. And I think Lindsey just realizes it.

435
00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:54,400
I think he's in a panic. I think he's in

436
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,880
a complete panic that he knows that people are just

437
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,880
falling away that Like, say what you want about maga people.

438
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,559
I think maga people right now at this point want

439
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,279
change and they don't care how did they get it.

440
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,359
They don't care if you Trump has to become an

441
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,079
article to president. They just want change. And I think

442
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,559
that's what scares the crap out of these people, is

443
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,920
they know that eventually this is coming for them.

444
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, the if you were a libertarian in the previous life,

445
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:31,519
I was a libertarian in a previous life. I remember

446
00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:36,359
reading Thomas d. Lorenzo, like Abraham Lincoln is the American dictator.

447
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,200
It's like these were the kinds of concerns people had seven, ten,

448
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:43,200
twelve years ago, and if you talk to your average conservative,

449
00:28:43,839 --> 00:28:48,680
they don't care at all, especially post COVID once things,

450
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,640
you know, stopped heating up in the COVID era and

451
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,000
you're able to go out and do things again. I

452
00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:56,720
did a lot of going out. I think probably a

453
00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:58,759
lot of people did, like let me get some era

454
00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:01,799
and just talking to pe people, business owners, whether it's

455
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,799
like local bars, restaurants, whatever, people who had to close businesses,

456
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,599
people who kept their businesses open but at extreme cost

457
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,000
to them and their families and their financial security and

458
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,079
things like that. And to a person, everyone is saying

459
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,400
things like, well, I won't repeat what they said on air,

460
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,359
but they were saying things like I don't care what

461
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:25,839
has to happen. I do not care what has to happen,

462
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:28,799
but it has to happen. These are the kinds of

463
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,400
things that they were saying. And just to your point,

464
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:35,559
like we've almost I say this again with a little

465
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:37,880
bit of an asterisk, we've almost been able to have

466
00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:43,279
kind of any other political option presented to us, but

467
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:49,720
something like a strong conservative executive. We've had all these

468
00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:57,680
flavors of right liberalism, libertarianism, paleo libertarianism, conservatism, paleo military

469
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,119
or minoritarianism, whatever, all his flavors on the left, of

470
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:09,960
different brands of socialist, communist, light communist, you know, diet communism, communism,

471
00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:16,039
thunder whatever, like mango communism, like boiler plate neil liberalism.

472
00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:19,200
We have had every kind of personality, every flavor, every color,

473
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,920
but the one thing we haven't been able to have,

474
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,200
and it's also the one thing that we had to

475
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,799
fight a ten year culture war, almost ten decade long

476
00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:31,240
culture war just to be able to get is something

477
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,640
like right wing authoritarianism. So yeah, the thing like getting

478
00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:38,799
on Paul Gottfried's case and calling him woke, it's like

479
00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:44,279
he's probably like one of the best bridges from like

480
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,799
the genesis of woke to us that exists. Like he

481
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,480
studied under Herbert Marcuse, you know, he was thrown out

482
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:58,319
by these old school communist left wing, anti anti family types,

483
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,839
anti capitalist, PPEs, anti you know, anti everything good effectively,

484
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,839
and he's documenting it for decades and decades he's documenting it.

485
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,920
So just yeah, James Lendsy is definitely shitting his pants.

486
00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:16,559
The thing that I the thing I've also kind of

487
00:31:16,559 --> 00:31:21,160
come to realize about his whole position is and it

488
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,279
makes me think he's I guess there's two. You can

489
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:25,680
always play this game of does he know what he's

490
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,559
doing or does he not know what he's doing? I'm

491
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:28,799
you know, I'm not going to put on my mind

492
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:32,640
reader hat, but just taking what he says at face value.

493
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:38,359
His worldview only makes sense if you don't interrogate it,

494
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,799
if you don't think about it, if you don't really

495
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,480
ask any questions, then it sort of works. But the

496
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,559
moment you start picking pulling it threads, it really doesn't

497
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:52,079
make any sense at all. So there's the definition that

498
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,279
James Lendsay gives for woke. I'm actually, uh, I'm going

499
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:00,680
to read it from my essay. Yeah, what woke mean

500
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,839
woke up to a structural politics that marginalizes people like me,

501
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,079
and we need to band together in solidarity in order

502
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,559
to be able to create a powerful enough oppressed coalition

503
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,680
to flip over the power structure by putting ourselves at

504
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,480
the center and clanning power for ourselves. So what he's

505
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:20,680
saying is that what it means, Actually there was there

506
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,039
was an even better quote, actually, to awaken a critical

507
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:30,039
consciousness of the power structure. So that's that's actually the

508
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,200
I tweeted that at him and then he blocked me.

509
00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:36,160
So woke is to come to a critical consciousness of

510
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,799
the power structure you. That is such a thin or

511
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,680
or kind of like widely applicable definition as to fundamentally

512
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,000
not have any real meaning. And it's why he's waging

513
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:52,880
this like weeks long jihad with people, like what are

514
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,839
you even talking about? How can you call these people woke?

515
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,799
Because if you think about some thing, you're being critical,

516
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:06,279
and everything has the structure, so you're becoming aware of

517
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:08,759
the structure. So one like he's he's basically saying, you

518
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:11,799
have to be unconscious. You have to not think about things.

519
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:16,519
We want this like illiterate unconscious liberalism where we just

520
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:19,119
float around in the world and we don't really pay

521
00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:22,559
attention to what's going on, nineties liberalism. Basically, he wants

522
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:24,160
to go back to a time where things are kind

523
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,119
of like you're like embryotic, like you're in your mom's

524
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,480
belly and things are warm and gushy, and you feel

525
00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:32,920
good and you don't have to worry about anything. One

526
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,039
that's not the world we live in anymore. Two that's

527
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:39,079
not a good world to live in at all. Like

528
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:43,839
imagine being this like brilliant academic mathematician. You've got all

529
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,960
these prizes and awards, and you're telling people that you

530
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:50,039
want them to not be critical thinkers. Like that's not

531
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,119
even that doesn't even follow from the kind of nineties

532
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,000
liberalism that we lived through that I grew up in,

533
00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:58,920
where it's like be a critical thinker, like you know,

534
00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:02,000
baby Josh elementary school, Like grow up to be a

535
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:05,160
critical thinker. Like everyone saying critical thinking is good, build

536
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,400
your critical thinking skills. And now here here's James lindsay,

537
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,920
like critical thinking is bad, don't do it. It's like

538
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,840
that's kind of ridiculous. But also like by that on

539
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,559
definition coming to a critical consciousness of power structures, like

540
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,760
he is woke by his own definition. How can you

541
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,840
reverse engineer this Marxist revolution without coming to a critical

542
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,760
consciousness of the power structures that produced woke Marxism? Right,

543
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:37,639
he wants to talk about Franz Finon and all of

544
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,519
these other people, like you have to think and deliberate

545
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,880
and research and work and and be critically. You have

546
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,079
to critique the power structure. You have to come to

547
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:51,159
an awareness of the institutions and networks that created this.

548
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:56,199
So this is one of the reasons why I say

549
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,880
that is that it's predominantly a smear. It's what I

550
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,360
called regime polemics, because he's basically working for the system

551
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,119
to come up with a larger bat to to beat

552
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:10,480
us with.

553
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,119
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and one of the other things that

554
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:17,239
he ascribes to Woke is he's like, oh, they're studying

555
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,159
Carl Schmidt. The friend and enemy distinction When you call

556
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,440
someone woke, right, what are you doing? Are you not

557
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:32,679
practicing friend? Enemy? And it's the This just goes to

558
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,639
show how retarded classical liberals are. And I'm not talking

559
00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:40,800
about like historically classical liberals. If it's twenty twenty four

560
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,440
and you're still a classical liberal and you're not just

561
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,360
I don't know, you don't really have anything. You can't

562
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,119
join the discussion. You're not in the discussion anymore. Classical

563
00:35:54,159 --> 00:36:00,400
liberalism has been so i mean just marginalized, and it's

564
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,679
just so dead in the water that the people who

565
00:36:03,679 --> 00:36:08,719
are arguing for it, they justin arguing for it, they

566
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:14,480
contradict their own their own assertions about other groups, and

567
00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:21,599
it's you're he's some great intellectual because he wrote a

568
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:25,159
bunch of fake papers and and got them. I mean,

569
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,000
come on, come on. And then you then you completely

570
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:34,280
rewrote the Communist Manifesto. The only thing you left in

571
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,840
there that that would jump out at anybody was something

572
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,079
about a specter, and I can that's the way I write,

573
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,800
where I'll I'll borrow a really famous kind of line

574
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,519
from somewhere and rearrange it to make it. And and

575
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:54,440
if I'm reading that, I'm just like, oh, okay, So

576
00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:56,440
because I read that thing, and I'm like, if I

577
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,760
didn't know this was supposed to be the Communist Manifesto,

578
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,519
I wouldn't have known it. I've read the Communist Manifesto

579
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:04,400
many times. I didn't see it in that. All I

580
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,039
saw was him using some kind of device where he's

581
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,440
picking the most famous line out of it and then

582
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:13,159
using it, which is a device I use, but I

583
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:15,480
don't use it to fool people. I use it because

584
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:16,840
it's like, oh look how smart I am.

585
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:21,599
Speaker 2: Basically, how many times have you seen somebody say once

586
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,960
as tragedy again as farce. Like I've written that phrase

587
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,280
everybody uses. It's like just part of it's part of

588
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,679
a vocabulary, right, but it's it's it. It does remind

589
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:40,280
me of Frankly, I was gonna say ten years ago,

590
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,119
but really at any point in the last ten years.

591
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:47,119
It sounds like a blue haired comie who says you

592
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,800
uttered the magic words. It's just like Hitler that therefore

593
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,400
your bad, right, Like it's it's it's the same type

594
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,760
of psychology. It's the same type of like way logical,

595
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,519
you know, way of analyzing this that whole episode. By

596
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:03,559
the way, I'm glad you brought it up, because I

597
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:06,880
had kind of forgotten about it. Tell me if you

598
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,480
had this feeling. There were two real problems I had

599
00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:12,400
with that. It was the Christian Reformer. Who's that the

600
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:13,519
name of the website.

601
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: That published this? Oh god, I can't remember. The American Yeah, yeah, yeah.

602
00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:21,199
Speaker 2: So there's two things about that that stuck out to

603
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,880
me right away. One the American he was He kept

604
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,920
calling it the leading woke Christian national. It's like they

605
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,559
have less than twenty thousands subscribers on Twitter.

606
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. I don't even know who

607
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,199
they are. Never heard of that, you know, and I'm

608
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,199
a Christian, I have no idea who they are. And

609
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,800
I'm someone who reads interviewed Christian nationalists and I had

610
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,679
no clue who they are because it's like, yeah, yeah,

611
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:50,760
it's very arbitrary.

612
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,519
Speaker 2: Again, this is a kind of thing that's common in

613
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,760
regime polemics. Is because you're working on behalf of the establishment.

614
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,199
When you select something, it becomes significant, right, Like it

615
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,920
has the the importance and the meaning that you imbue

616
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,199
it with.

617
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: Right.

618
00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: So if James lindsay, as a representative of you know,

619
00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:14,440
big gay you know, big gay liberalism, and he says, well,

620
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,880
this is the institution, this is the Christian nationalist woke

621
00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:21,920
paper of record. Well, him with his half a million

622
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,039
Twitter subscribers and his network of academics and his sec

623
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:28,119
of fans are now that's it. It's that's that that

624
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:31,480
perception has been created, that becomes part of the discourse.

625
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,360
You now are kind of pushing up against this brick

626
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,960
wall even trying to refute that.

627
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: Right.

628
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: So that's like this sort of polemical power he has

629
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:42,679
as as a member, and he complains, by the way,

630
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:45,199
as a brief aside, he complains all the time, Like

631
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,679
he doesn't get the star appointments and he's kind of

632
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,679
left out of all the cool hip soares so like,

633
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,320
obviously he's not the same thing as like Ibram x

634
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,840
Kendy was, you know.

635
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:03,199
Speaker 1: And even though and even though he is, he's bankrolled

636
00:40:03,199 --> 00:40:05,920
by somebody I'm not going to name because this person

637
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:11,519
is very litigious, but he's bankrolled by a e by

638
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:18,360
a big time evangelical who has ties to big J money.

639
00:40:18,599 --> 00:40:23,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. So there's this

640
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,199
arbitrariness to selecting The American Reformer as the woke right

641
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,000
paper of record. But also, I mean again, you and

642
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:36,760
I we've written things, We've published things, We've tried to

643
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,880
get things published at places for you know, whether it

644
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,920
was libertarian paper or a conservative or whatever, or even

645
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,280
like maybe your town, your local newspaper in your hometown.

646
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,239
Like I kind of know, like I have some idea

647
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,360
of how things get published and like what that review

648
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,400
process is like and how extensive it is, Like does

649
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:07,280
it really prove that they like that by publishing this

650
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:12,320
kind of mishmashed paper that it actually reflects like they

651
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,480
actually are co signed, Like the act of publishing obviously

652
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,840
is a sort of endorsement. But knowing that, like it's

653
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,840
the Internet, things move fast and quick. It's a shoe

654
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,599
string operation. They don't have all this. They don't have

655
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:27,119
a whole team of editors. They don't have people who

656
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,880
it is their job to just do that forty to

657
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,760
fifty hours a week. They see something, it comes through

658
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,119
in their email, they probably look at it real quick

659
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,639
and they say, okay, we'll publish it on Wednesday at

660
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:40,679
three pm, thanks for your submission. Like, does that prove

661
00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:45,519
that they are secret Marxists or does it prove that

662
00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:49,320
in a fast moving technological economy where you are part

663
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,119
of the alternative media and there's maybe I don't want

664
00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:55,119
to say anything bad about the American Reformer, I don't

665
00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:57,519
know them, but just as an example, like maybe you

666
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:03,559
don't have the most strenuous submission review process. Maybe there's

667
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:05,480
a couple of things you look for and then you

668
00:42:05,559 --> 00:42:07,960
just publish it. It's like, actually, all you've really done

669
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:12,360
is demonstrate that the economy around publishing is probably not

670
00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:15,920
as rigorous as it ought to be. Right, Like, this

671
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,119
is not an actually ideological point that you're making. This

672
00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:23,599
is like sort of like a banal business failure of

673
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:27,639
the business world in the Internet age. Like there's so

674
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,679
many things that were goofy about it, and like it's

675
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,000
just funny to me. Like every time he's tried to

676
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,400
slam the you know, big comical acme hammer down on us,

677
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,639
it's like it bounces back and hits him in the face.

678
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,280
Like you know, it's like wildly Coyote and the road Runner.

679
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,199
It's like he he runs into the tunnel, painted onto

680
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,239
the brick wall and bounces off of it. He's just

681
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,800
it's it's just to your point, and I'll even hear

682
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,519
what I'm done. It does really reek of a guy

683
00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:02,840
who's and like kind of shooting his pants and in

684
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,800
a full blown panic.

685
00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's worried. He's he's seeing his meal ticket disappear.

686
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,719
That that's what it is. And he knows that his

687
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:20,119
meal ticket right now is going into Milk Toasts event

688
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:27,119
events with milk toast evangelicals who love Israel and who

689
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,360
hate the woke. And he goes in there and tells

690
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,559
him some stories about how all of this came from

691
00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:37,159
Karl Marx and it's all Marxism, so you better be scared,

692
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,920
and because you know, that's really dangerous stuff and everything,

693
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,880
even though it's you know, it's like it I mean,

694
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,800
it is in practice and it is in thought, but

695
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,719
it's like, I mean, he's never going to talk about

696
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:54,039
the fact that liberalism has no gatekeeping mechanisms that allows

697
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:56,599
anything to come you know, Oh, well, you're just going

698
00:43:56,679 --> 00:43:58,440
to have the marketplace of ideas and you're going to

699
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,320
come in there. And if you have the marketplace idea

700
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,239
is and you're a classical liberal, well, classical liberals are

701
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,920
not about Schmidtian you know, Schmidian exceptions and Schmidian friend enemy.

702
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,920
So I don't care if a communist gets a job

703
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,400
at the local university and then another one, and then

704
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,840
another one and then another one. I mean, he knows

705
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,440
that this is that liberalism has as much to do

706
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:28,079
with the takeover, with this postliberal you know, this post

707
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:29,800
war conceens, I mean the post wark and sens. This

708
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:36,280
is liberal. It is liberalism in its final form. And well,

709
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,880
I mean maybe not its final form. I mean it

710
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,159
could get worse. So he gets a left pure left

711
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:45,159
wing authoritarianism. But what we're seeing now is is liberalism.

712
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:51,920
It is we're going down this path and we're there's

713
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,880
an endpoint. There's an endpoint, but we just can't get there.

714
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,519
We can't. We just took we took a rite. We

715
00:44:58,559 --> 00:44:59,679
got to get back on the path. What do we

716
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,239
gotta do? Pat, And then all these other things just

717
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,760
sneak in. He just he knows, he knows. I'm convinced

718
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,960
that he just knows that this classical liberalism that he

719
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:15,519
totes because he can't call it what he really wants

720
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:18,760
to is, which he's a leftist. He has said that

721
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:22,360
he would rather the woke left wind than than like

722
00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:27,400
the West become tradcaf Again he's actually oh yeah, oh

723
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,199
yeah he said that. Yeah, I can, I can pull

724
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,400
up the screenshots of it. Yeah, yeah, he would rather

725
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,000
the woke left wind, like someone said, well you know

726
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,440
what if it was become tradcath he goes that, we're not.

727
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,079
I don't want that. I would rather the left one. Yeah,

728
00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:44,000
he's he's not a friend to right wingers. But right

729
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,960
wingers are such fucking pussies that they like, they have

730
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:53,599
no problem. They're reaching left, well, reaching left and punching right.

731
00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:56,480
And that's what they've been trained to do by the

732
00:45:56,519 --> 00:46:01,239
post war consensus. And that's exactly what that's what he's

733
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,440
he does, and he's taught a bunch of people to do.

734
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:07,599
And unfortunately, a lot of Evangelical Christianity has just rischa.

735
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,239
A lot of Evangelical Christianity is quote quote we lose

736
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:19,159
down here quote which means we can't do anything love

737
00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:24,440
our enemies. Never says anywhere to love God's enemies. And

738
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,119
these are the kind of people who in nineteen thirty

739
00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:30,840
six in Spain, while and while priests and nuns are

740
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,880
being executed in the streets, people would say, no, that's

741
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,719
the way it's supposed to be, because you know, I mean,

742
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,800
we can't, we can't fight back. We have to love

743
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:37,400
our enemies.

744
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's funny. Again, just one final comment

745
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,800
on the whole American reformer situation. All kinds of people

746
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:53,039
that I didn't really think would line up alongside. It's

747
00:46:53,039 --> 00:46:55,679
literally like the stone toss meme of like you know,

748
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,599
the two play the tug over War and then you

749
00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:59,639
look to your left, who's behind me? It's like a

750
00:46:59,679 --> 00:47:02,360
sudden Ashley Saint Clair and Mike Cernovich, You're behind you, Like,

751
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,480
what the hell is going on? Like all these people

752
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,760
who either are really not part of that conversation or

753
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:15,159
their message is not really a hyper illiterate message, like

754
00:47:15,159 --> 00:47:18,000
in the case of Ashley Saint Clair, are like, but like,

755
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:20,880
don't you think like some of this is like worth considering,

756
00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:24,400
like the most milk toast, tepid thing. Like I think

757
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,199
Mike either Saargon or Mike Cernovich were both like, yes,

758
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,000
but his criticisms of capitalism were accurate, okay, which is

759
00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:35,079
one line of rebuttal that you could take. And I

760
00:47:35,119 --> 00:47:37,239
think Ashley Saint Clair was like, yeah, but don't you

761
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,719
think there's any room at all to criticize the system

762
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,440
that we're in. It's like you won't even allow for

763
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,119
the possibility of self reflection. That's how you know you're

764
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:51,840
the bad guy, dude, Like you won't look like Jack Cool,

765
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,280
you won't look into the mirror. That's how we know

766
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,599
you're the bad guy. You have no reflection, We know

767
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,679
you're the bad guy. I'm inclined to think and this

768
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:07,320
is maybe armchair psychoanalyzing, and just because of these are

769
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,119
things I've seen pop up on Twitter in the last

770
00:48:10,119 --> 00:48:16,400
few days, I'm inclined to think that he gets you know, nobody,

771
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,199
nobody blow up my DMS or send me an affidavit

772
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,360
or anything. I'm inclined to think he gets up to

773
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,519
some weird perp stuff. You know, somebody posted a picture

774
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:29,039
of him taking a selfie, like in the nude, with

775
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,920
like a potted plant precariously positioned where his genitals are.

776
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,320
It's like, so you put that on the internet, man,

777
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,000
like there is something wrong with you. And the thing

778
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,960
about like even his social media personality, it says something

779
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,280
to me like this is kind of a dysfunctional person

780
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,000
because he's on triggernometry and he starts off, you know,

781
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:55,639
Constantine kiss and asks him what is the woke right,

782
00:48:56,559 --> 00:49:00,679
and James Lindsay starts kind of apologetically like, gee, you know,

783
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,039
maybe I've used woke to liberally. It might not be

784
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:07,559
the best word. So he's like a kind of human

785
00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:09,719
being a little bit at the start of that interview.

786
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,800
And then you watch him on Twitter and he posts

787
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,559
like he's a fourteen year old and everything is really yeah,

788
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,079
it's like this is not an actually mature adult man. Uh.

789
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:29,079
And that's the type of person that the establishment has left,

790
00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:33,320
Like these like they're reserve troops. This is like calling

791
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,599
in I don't know, the National Guard, and it's like

792
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,239
the fat guy from the bar with like terrible diabetes

793
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,320
and his legs are all swollen up. It's like they

794
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,840
they're not sending their best. Okay, they're not sending their best.

795
00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know What's what else is interesting about the

796
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,800
post war consensus is that it's while they are sneaking

797
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,760
in a lot of like social Marxism. If you if

798
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,320
you use any kind of crit or if you agree

799
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,400
at all with Marx or Lenin or anybody of that ilk,

800
00:50:06,159 --> 00:50:08,039
if you say, oh, well, you know, they made a

801
00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:12,039
really good point here about industrial society and capitalism. I

802
00:50:12,079 --> 00:50:18,400
saw this today. They were talking about this kid, an

803
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,639
Italian anarchist who's assassinating people in the streets. Again, what

804
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:28,679
year is this. The they were saying, Oh, well, he's

805
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,599
like really into like Ted Kaczinski and everything like that.

806
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:35,559
I'm like, and they're like, oh, that means he's a leftist.

807
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:40,559
That's what the jewess from Libs of TikTok said, So,

808
00:50:40,639 --> 00:50:42,960
oh that means he's a leftist. I'm like, you read

809
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,480
Ted Kazinski. The whole first thirty seven parts of that

810
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:49,840
is him completely shitting on the left. And then he

811
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:55,440
explains why technological society, why what it's done to our

812
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,280
psyche and what is done to us and what has

813
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,880
done to our nature, and to argue against that, you're retarded.

814
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:08,360
So it's like, you can what the post war consensus

815
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,800
says is, oh, we're gonna sneak all this Marxism in here,

816
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,760
in this socialism here, and basically you know, and Marxism

817
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,639
in a way, we're going to strip away family. We're

818
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:19,320
gonna we want you to become the liberal the post

819
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,159
war consensus man and woman and everything. But if you

820
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,039
agree at all where you say, well, I think marx

821
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:28,719
and the German ideology made some really good points about

822
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,559
what's happening to society, well then you're a Marxist. It's like,

823
00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:37,000
wait a minute, but you're promoting you're promoting shit that's

824
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:40,559
almost almost literally Marxist, and we have it in our

825
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:46,119
society and we've pointed it out. And what now. So

826
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:48,400
you can't even win with these people because it's like

827
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,800
you can't. You they can have it one way, but

828
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:52,119
they can have it both ways.

829
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:56,159
Speaker 2: You can't. That's the power of That's again, it's the

830
00:51:56,159 --> 00:51:58,960
power of being a regime polemicist. You said, the rules,

831
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:03,280
you established, the you determine what pieces are in play,

832
00:52:03,679 --> 00:52:08,719
what pieces aren't in play, what's hypocritical, what isn't. Just

833
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,480
to kind of go back to the parallel between Hofstadter

834
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:15,559
and James Lindsay, between woke right and the paranoid style,

835
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,519
you know, one of these other things, and I think

836
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:22,719
it's exempt. It demonstrates what you're just talking about is

837
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:27,320
the way things that there's kind of self evidently farcical

838
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:35,400
or hypocritical are used in this polemical, pejorative way. So

839
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,000
one of the key arguments that Lindsay puts forward is

840
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,719
that the woke right behaves just like the woke left,

841
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:43,519
Like this is kind of like this is one half

842
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:47,119
of his entire argument. He says that there's an ideological component.

843
00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:50,719
He says that there's a practical component, and the practical

844
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,840
component is how we behave. We behave the same as

845
00:52:54,880 --> 00:53:00,360
the woke left. We use social media the same way,

846
00:53:01,039 --> 00:53:04,599
we believe in an oppressed oppressor dialectic, the same way.

847
00:53:04,599 --> 00:53:08,000
I'm gonna actually try to pull up some of the

848
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:11,679
examples he uses here. Sure so yeah. He says that

849
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,920
they create an illusion that there's support for one thing

850
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,280
and distaste for another. He says that you know, both

851
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:23,440
are highly invested in identity politics, and he says that ultimately,

852
00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:26,159
what what what else can you call this but woke?

853
00:53:26,679 --> 00:53:30,719
And so therefore there's this complete you know, what he's

854
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,920
what he thinks he's done is eliminated any difference between

855
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:41,800
Pete Kenonas and Josh Neil versus I don't know Slava,

856
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:50,239
Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Okazio, Cortes, uh Man Jail, whether he's

857
00:53:50,599 --> 00:53:53,599
anarchist or not or whatever, like, actually there's still are

858
00:53:54,199 --> 00:53:57,280
there still are fundamental differences even if you can point

859
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,800
to superficial similarities. So this is another thing that there's

860
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,639
a very telling passage in the paranoid style of in

861
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:12,760
American politics where to dispel the to kind of like

862
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,599
defang this what he calls pseudo conservatism. He points to

863
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,159
the rivalries of right wing conspiratorial groups and shows how

864
00:54:21,159 --> 00:54:25,079
that they are identical to their opposition. So he talks

865
00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:30,039
about the KKK and he says, well, you know, they

866
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:34,639
wore priestly uniforms just like the Catholics, and they had

867
00:54:35,039 --> 00:54:39,880
this strict hierarchical structure just like the Catholics. So actually

868
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,840
their rivalry is kind of like this petty envy and

869
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,880
it is totally illegitimate and they're just paranoid. Never mind

870
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,480
the fact that the KKK were made up of a

871
00:54:48,519 --> 00:54:52,840
specific group of people from a specific place, operating under

872
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,159
a specific political pretext, with a very particular set of

873
00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:59,039
goals for themselves. And you know, the Catholic Church is

874
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:03,360
is the Catholic Church like not the same thing? Right?

875
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,760
Or that? He uses the example of the John Birch

876
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:11,320
Society versus you know, this communist spook, and he says,

877
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,719
isn't it really remarkable that they both fight a zero

878
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:20,199
sum ideological war. It's like, okay, so they're both really

879
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,599
committed to the ideas that they have. Therefore, there's no

880
00:55:23,679 --> 00:55:27,000
difference at all between you know, a mom and pop

881
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:29,199
from down the street who give their one hundred dollars

882
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:33,760
every month to the John Birch Society and communist organizers

883
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,599
who are like burning down houses and whatever. He also

884
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:43,079
gives the example of Christians Christian anti communists versus communists

885
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:46,679
and the exact phrase here, just let me pull it up.

886
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:54,719
It's so goofy one second, okay, So he says, you know,

887
00:55:54,840 --> 00:56:00,599
Christian anti communists were intellectually and spiritually vigorous like their

888
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:06,960
communist foes. They admired the vigor of their communist opponents

889
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,840
and they tried to emulate it. And that's how we

890
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,079
know that there's no actual rivalry here, that the right

891
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:16,400
wingers are just parented by the way, there's never any

892
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,679
actual kind of antagonization or examination of the left wing

893
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,199
people on that side of the Communists are just like

894
00:56:23,639 --> 00:56:30,920
kind of unimpeachable to Richard Houckaughlin.

895
00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: And Justice Stalin same person.

896
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's common. It's you would even think that a

897
00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:39,280
guy who had formally disavowed his Communism and like shredded

898
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,559
up his Communist party, you know, uh credit card or whatever,

899
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:50,840
might have like an interest in publishing even just to

900
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:56,159
say face publishing, like even tepidly communist critiques, just to

901
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,719
distance himself and the public perception he's created. But no,

902
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,800
he dies. He's the same thing with Karl Popper, not

903
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,000
to get off on a tangent, although I guess with

904
00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:08,000
Carl Popper later on in his career he did become

905
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:11,440
more critical of communism. But Carl Popper is another again

906
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,960
architect of the post war consensus. Literally, the Open Society

907
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,920
Foundation is based on the title of his book, and

908
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,840
he was a mentor of George Soros was not even.

909
00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: Didn't he come up with the term conspiracy theorist.

910
00:57:26,119 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: He wrote an essay called the Conspiracy Theory of Society, right.

911
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,719
I don't though if he coined these, But that's a

912
00:57:33,719 --> 00:57:36,000
great essay, by the way, very very ridiculous stuff that

913
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,519
he puts in it. But another guy who, like in

914
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:43,519
a previous life, was a communist. And when he does

915
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:49,440
his big brained intellectual defense of liberalism, really only has

916
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,199
time to talk about how bad fascists are, how bad

917
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,960
nativists are, how bad Nazis are, how bad populists are,

918
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,480
how bad nationalists are. It's like, guy, you were with

919
00:58:00,559 --> 00:58:03,360
the communists and you almost got killed by them, and

920
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,400
you can't even give me a sentence about how bad

921
00:58:06,519 --> 00:58:09,880
that is. And again I'm being a little bit hyperbolic

922
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,960
because he does talk about Marx in The Open Society

923
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,880
and his enemies, but most of that book is spent

924
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:20,800
slagging nativism. It's spent slagging the closed society, which would be,

925
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,440
you know, a nation that protects his borders and has

926
00:58:23,519 --> 00:58:26,880
law and order and has a you know, vaguely authoritarian,

927
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,559
hierarchical political structure. So I mean, these guys just telling

928
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:32,800
themselves it's remarkable.

929
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:40,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's really I think at this point to

930
00:58:40,199 --> 00:58:45,280
argue with them is you're giving them legitimacy because I

931
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:50,559
don't know that. Yeah, if you look at how many

932
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,559
followers he has on Twitter, and people say, oh, Twitter

933
00:58:54,599 --> 00:58:57,239
isn't real life. People said that like eight nine years ago,

934
00:58:57,599 --> 00:58:59,639
Well Twitter has become real life because it really is

935
00:58:59,639 --> 00:59:02,559
the public square. So you know, you look at how

936
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:05,400
many followers he has. You look at if he posts something,

937
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,519
if he posts something about classical liberalism, he's lucky to

938
00:59:09,559 --> 00:59:13,199
get like the amount of likes. He's lucky to get

939
00:59:13,239 --> 00:59:15,599
ten percent of the likes of like a meme account

940
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,760
just posting a meme. But when he posts about stuff

941
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,920
like this, he may get like double that. And all

942
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:27,000
that tells you is that no one's buying this. The

943
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,400
only people who are really going along with it are

944
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:35,960
people who are so bought into his worldview. And you know,

945
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:38,880
let's face it. Yeah, I was talking about this with

946
00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:42,239
a friend of mine on his show this afternoon. Is

947
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,000
that a lot of people who get into a quote

948
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:51,920
unquote movement, they're just looking for God, They're looking for

949
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:57,400
their God. And if somebody is like really into you know, oh,

950
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,679
classical liberalism and and he woke, James Lindsay can become

951
01:00:01,719 --> 01:00:04,440
their God really quick if you're if you're really into

952
01:00:04,519 --> 01:00:08,480
like free market economics, Ludwig von Mises can become your

953
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:13,519
your got really quickly. And that's just basically what we're seeing.

954
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,960
I mean, I don't know really if you had to guess,

955
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:24,440
do you think James Lindsay has any kind of influence

956
01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:26,119
on the incoming Trump regime?

957
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,039
Speaker 2: None at all, I would assume. Then he complain that

958
01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:32,519
like they literally didn't even ask me, Like I think

959
01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:34,840
he said something to that effect on Twitter, like no

960
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,000
one's calling me, why.

961
01:00:37,079 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Would Why what are you going to tell them? What

962
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:43,800
are you going to advise them on? What I mean,

963
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:50,320
if you're if your goal? Trump has said, Look, I

964
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,159
think most people are at the point where it's like,

965
01:00:52,519 --> 01:00:55,320
just get rid of all the get rid of all

966
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,599
the the illegal immigrants. If he got rid of, you know,

967
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:03,039
half of the illegal immorrants in this country at this point,

968
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:07,360
that would just be a win. Because I mean, no

969
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:12,199
one's expecting and no one's really expecting success. No one

970
01:01:12,199 --> 01:01:15,480
who's realistic, no one who understands how the administrative state works,

971
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,440
how the post war consensus works. Is really expecting an

972
01:01:19,519 --> 01:01:26,840
insane amount of success. But I mean, is he going

973
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,400
to be for that? How does he help that? How

974
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,199
does he help like say Doze say this Doge outfit

975
01:01:33,719 --> 01:01:38,360
does start dismantling the managerial estate, managerial state. That's what

976
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,280
he's fighting for. So why is he complaining about what?

977
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,079
Is he expecting them to invite them in there so

978
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:48,159
he can tell them everything that they're doing wrong because

979
01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:50,119
we have to keep doing We just have to go

980
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:55,559
back to the nineties. Bro I heard was so Amari?

981
01:01:56,679 --> 01:02:00,960
And which one is? So Habo Mari? He's the one?

982
01:02:01,599 --> 01:02:03,079
Is he Claremont?

983
01:02:03,639 --> 01:02:06,199
Speaker 2: What I think he's Is he an editor for Compact?

984
01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:13,639
Speaker 1: Yeah? Who's the Who's like? Is he associated with Claremont?

985
01:02:13,639 --> 01:02:17,639
I can't remember, but I think yeah. So. And he

986
01:02:17,719 --> 01:02:21,320
was talking to Dave Rubin and this was three or

987
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,760
four years ago, and when I was just listening to

988
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,880
everything and now I just can't listen to everything. And

989
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,679
they were talking about how they we need to go

990
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,840
back ten years. This all started falling apart ten years ago,

991
01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:39,840
and I'm like, who's asking who listens to that? And

992
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:45,320
takes that seriously. Who says, in like in twenty twenty one,

993
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,239
that we just need to go back to twenty eleven,

994
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:49,400
what we need to go back to the ending of

995
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,159
Barack Obama's first term. But these people are retarded, and

996
01:02:54,199 --> 01:02:57,840
I'm fully convinced. I become convinced of this more than

997
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,480
I the longer I do this. These people are just

998
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,280
trying to keep a job. There's just they're just saying

999
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,079
the things that they need to stay in their job.

1000
01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:13,199
If they were to deviate one bit, they'd get fired,

1001
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:16,239
they'd have to go somewhere else, they'd have to Why

1002
01:03:16,239 --> 01:03:19,119
would you change your opinions on Why would you all

1003
01:03:19,159 --> 01:03:22,039
of a sudden become a Carl Schmidt fan? You know

1004
01:03:22,119 --> 01:03:26,039
when you've been when you've been a John Locke, when

1005
01:03:26,079 --> 01:03:31,199
you've been promoting Lockey in philosophy your whole life, especially

1006
01:03:31,239 --> 01:03:35,000
if you're making your living off of it, you're cutting

1007
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,280
your income off. That's why Lindsay, that's why Lindsay's acting

1008
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,519
the way he is is because he's his income. He's

1009
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:48,760
seeing his potential downfall and more than that, not being

1010
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:53,079
invited to be on the stage anymore. And he's one

1011
01:03:53,079 --> 01:03:54,519
of those people who can't take that.

1012
01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:02,559
Speaker 2: All this. I was thinking theses you were saying as

1013
01:04:02,599 --> 01:04:05,360
you were saying them, which is that a big part

1014
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,920
of getting involved for this in this scene for me

1015
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,360
has been realizing some of us are fighting for ideals

1016
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,199
and outcomes and some of us are fighting for paychecks.

1017
01:04:15,519 --> 01:04:19,519
So that's very astute, totally co signed that. As far

1018
01:04:19,559 --> 01:04:24,039
as Sorabamari is concerned, I do believe he's connected with Claremont.

1019
01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:28,400
He was the editor of Compact and Commentary. He is

1020
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,320
the editor of Compact now, and he was previously the

1021
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,960
editor of Commentary, and I do think he was like

1022
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,239
a Claremont fellow or something. But yeah, I mean, yeah,

1023
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:40,440
it's not surprising that these people would want to go

1024
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:45,480
back to like the period when their sinecure first opened up,

1025
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:46,960
Like yeah, I want to go back to ten years

1026
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,920
ago when you opened the floodgates and gave me, you know,

1027
01:04:50,039 --> 01:04:55,320
a lifetime job at gay Boy inco or whatever, you know,

1028
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,719
like publishing bullshit dot com, Like yes, please, I want

1029
01:04:58,719 --> 01:05:00,679
to go back to that time so that I can

1030
01:05:00,719 --> 01:05:04,400
have that job. I don't know that I have anything

1031
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:09,559
else to say on that point other than when you asked,

1032
01:05:09,599 --> 01:05:14,000
like what influence would James Lendsay have on the incoming

1033
01:05:14,039 --> 01:05:18,239
Trump administration. I immediately thought of that really weird anti

1034
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:21,679
Saint Michael bit he was on, like, so imagine you're

1035
01:05:21,719 --> 01:05:23,960
Donald Trump, Like you can't even get a tweet out

1036
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:28,159
the front door with that. James Lindsay, like, excuse me,

1037
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,119
this is really a big problem and you need to

1038
01:05:31,159 --> 01:05:33,519
stop doing it. It's like, Okay, this guy is trying

1039
01:05:33,559 --> 01:05:36,639
to like kick forty million people out the front door,

1040
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:40,920
and you're raising a stink over a tweet, like yeah,

1041
01:05:41,159 --> 01:05:44,400
you don't actually have a place here, and uh and

1042
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,360
don't let the door hit you on the way out.

1043
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:50,039
Speaker 1: He was wrong about Arn McIntyre being the guy behind that.

1044
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:52,559
I'm the one with the saint. I'm the one with

1045
01:05:52,639 --> 01:05:56,719
the Saint Michael coyn right next to me when I

1046
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,519
when I podcast, it was you, it was you all along,

1047
01:06:00,039 --> 01:06:04,239
ha ha. Tell everybody about your book on conspiracy theories.

1048
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:05,960
In the Conspiracy Theories.

1049
01:06:06,719 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, last time we were on, we talked

1050
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,960
about American extremist Imperium Press the chapter on individualism and

1051
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:17,639
socialism or sociopathy rather. Yeah, my book came out in

1052
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:20,199
February of this year. It's actually part one of two,

1053
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,280
and the new book is coming out early next year.

1054
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:28,360
But understanding conspiracy theories, I had worked on it for

1055
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:33,360
like five years. It's half of everything I have to

1056
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:36,360
say about the subject matter. But yeah, I came into

1057
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:42,000
nationalism through the conspiracy content. If you want to stay online,

1058
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:46,760
you know, I read all the Jim Mars books I read.

1059
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,039
You know. I listened to Alex Jones. I watched his

1060
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:51,960
documentaries on the police State. I listened to Coast to

1061
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:56,000
Coast I watched I was a young person, a very

1062
01:06:56,039 --> 01:07:00,159
young person, when loose change and Zeitgeist were like the

1063
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:06,159
thing on the internets, and it was really harrowing, honestly

1064
01:07:06,599 --> 01:07:09,519
to like develop a con like to become a man

1065
01:07:10,159 --> 01:07:14,159
hormonally and like mentally, at the same time you're being

1066
01:07:14,239 --> 01:07:19,039
hit with this incredible technology called the Internet and all

1067
01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:22,320
of the information we have available to the human species.

1068
01:07:22,719 --> 01:07:24,679
So you know, I'm and of course I grew up

1069
01:07:24,679 --> 01:07:27,039
with nine to eleven. Like I remember the day the

1070
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:30,440
Towers hit. I was sitting in my sophomore biology class

1071
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,639
with the cute redhead teacher at my Catholic high school

1072
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:38,400
and being pulled out of the classroom, thinking that my

1073
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,360
father was dead, you know, So like these are all

1074
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:44,079
deeply like and there's hundreds of thousands of people, millions

1075
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:46,280
of people with the story just like that. So it's

1076
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,880
not my pity story that I'm saying to your audience.

1077
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,840
Lots of people have stories like that. I Yeah, I

1078
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,880
grew up in New York City. That was the formation

1079
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,360
of my consciousness. I remember when you could go on

1080
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,119
an airplane and it was nice. And I remember a

1081
01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:05,760
couple of years later when you went on an airplane

1082
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,679
and a morbidly obese Haitian person grabbed your balls. Like

1083
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:18,079
I lived through that. Okay, So the Patriot Act and

1084
01:08:18,119 --> 01:08:23,039
everything that followed from that. So the idea of of

1085
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,279
and now we're living in this moment where conspiracy theories

1086
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,760
are kind of like a thing you can cash in on.

1087
01:08:29,159 --> 01:08:32,039
It's like a career. You can be an all media

1088
01:08:32,159 --> 01:08:35,479
guy with a TikTok account doing the whole you know,

1089
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,560
your blurry face in front of like a text scroll

1090
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,239
going isn't this look at this and this kind of

1091
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:43,920
and here and here. It's like you can do that

1092
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,640
as a career. And fifteen years ago, twenty years ago,

1093
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,920
if you did that, you were a pariah. You were medicated,

1094
01:08:50,399 --> 01:08:53,239
you were kicked out of polite society. So it took

1095
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:58,159
me coming into this nationalist community learning a few new

1096
01:08:58,199 --> 01:09:03,279
things that mainstream conspiracy culture from ten years ago didn't

1097
01:09:03,359 --> 01:09:07,359
let you in on people like Michael Collins Piper. Like

1098
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,199
if I had known about Michael Collins Piper fifteen years ago,

1099
01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:12,239
it would have saved me a lot of trouble. I

1100
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:14,359
didn't learn about him until like two and a half

1101
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,720
years ago, and it's like, oh, well, this guy. It's

1102
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:22,000
not like the skeleton key that literally unlocks everything, but

1103
01:09:22,199 --> 01:09:25,760
it clears up a lot of stuff. So I think

1104
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:30,039
the thing that's really that at my selling point for

1105
01:09:30,079 --> 01:09:34,680
the book is the there's a neutral way to think

1106
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:39,119
about conspiracy theories because we're now in this point where

1107
01:09:40,199 --> 01:09:42,520
people of a certain age like that is who their

1108
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,239
identity is. It's like, I just am a conspiracy theorist, right,

1109
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:50,760
And there's it's very difficult to think clearly because there's

1110
01:09:51,079 --> 01:09:55,239
there's sort of this heuristic in the conspiracy theory community.

1111
01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 3: Where because you had this skepticism about things that happened

1112
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,960
in the past, you have this sort of like gnostic

1113
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:07,680
pure knowledge of everything that's happening now and conspiracy.

1114
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,399
Speaker 2: Oh, it's this is a false flag. Just like what

1115
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:14,279
I saw ten years ago. There are heuristics that work,

1116
01:10:14,359 --> 01:10:16,720
and then they are heuristics that don't work. And so

1117
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:18,680
like what I was trying to do with this book

1118
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,720
was try to establish, Okay, really, what is a conspiracy theory?

1119
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:29,199
How does it work? Why is everyone today in this

1120
01:10:30,239 --> 01:10:36,560
hyper vigilant, paranoid, neurotic mindset where there is a conspiracy

1121
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,479
lurking or I should say an illegitimate conspiracy lurking behind

1122
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:46,720
every door. Ten years ago, if you're a liberal Democrat,

1123
01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:49,319
the big bad and it actually has been the same

1124
01:10:49,359 --> 01:10:52,479
conspiracy theory for the last ten years. The big conspiracy

1125
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:59,079
was Russia, Russian bots, Russian hacking. Coutin Donald Trump got

1126
01:10:59,199 --> 01:11:02,880
urinated on a prostitute in a Russian hotel, and that's

1127
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:05,000
the blackmail they've got. Sorry to be lewde with you

1128
01:11:05,039 --> 01:11:07,640
and your audience, but you know, maybe if you've got

1129
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,119
young people in your audience, they didn't know that that happened.

1130
01:11:10,279 --> 01:11:13,279
If you were going through the first Trump campaign like

1131
01:11:13,319 --> 01:11:16,159
that was the October surprise and we're all just sitting

1132
01:11:16,199 --> 01:11:20,640
here like are you kidding me? So the basic punchline

1133
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:25,000
here is, you know, a conspiracy theory effectively is a

1134
01:11:25,079 --> 01:11:28,279
folk account of history. It's you and me trying to

1135
01:11:28,279 --> 01:11:32,119
figure out what's actually happening, without the benefit of a PhD,

1136
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,560
without the benefit of a Walter Cronkite, without the benefit

1137
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:41,640
of some expert or authority, a regime a James Lindsay,

1138
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:46,920
a regime approved personality who can disseminate a coherent narrative

1139
01:11:47,039 --> 01:11:49,159
to us so that we can go back to sleep

1140
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,680
and then go to work and then pet you know,

1141
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,760
a little Pete Junior on the head and send them

1142
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,159
off to soccer practice, you know, the things that make

1143
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,640
our day to day life livable. So what you really

1144
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:04,199
have are is that this folk history and then regime history,

1145
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,800
and there's this tension between the two. So I talk

1146
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:09,880
a lot about that. I bring in a lot of

1147
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,439
Marshall mccleughan to talk about how the Internet has created

1148
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:19,159
this unique paranoid culture. That gentleman he was on Joe Rogan,

1149
01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:24,439
he popularized the phrase mass formation psychosis. You know that

1150
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:27,239
that's been one of these phrases to explain kind of

1151
01:12:27,239 --> 01:12:31,079
why everyone is so crazy and why everyone is so

1152
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,479
distrusting of the things that they see and the people

1153
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:37,960
that they live around. I don't think we actually need

1154
01:12:38,079 --> 01:12:41,720
novel language. I don't think we need, if anything, this

1155
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,079
book does very similarly what my first book did, which

1156
01:12:45,119 --> 01:12:47,800
was like take the psychology out of it, take the

1157
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,159
psychiatry out of it, because, as I make the point

1158
01:12:50,159 --> 01:12:55,199
with the you know, Jim Lindsay and Hofstad are the

1159
01:12:55,239 --> 01:12:58,079
psychology that's been used to make sense of our political

1160
01:12:58,119 --> 01:13:02,680
life has made it worse because it isn't a psychological problem.

1161
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:09,560
Intrinsically it's a political problem. It's a social, cultural, civilizational,

1162
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:13,960
historical problem. We're dealing with real things, not just artifacts

1163
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:15,880
of the mind, and we need to be able to

1164
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,279
treat it that way. So that was probably a little incoherent.

1165
01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:22,199
But it's a great book, and I hope your audience

1166
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:22,560
loves it.

1167
01:13:23,359 --> 01:13:27,600
Speaker 1: No anything I promote anything from Imperium Press. I send

1168
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,239
people there all the time and they just get lost

1169
01:13:30,279 --> 01:13:33,560
in it. Thank you for mentioning Coast to Coast, though

1170
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:37,439
it reminds me I haven't listened to keep it on

1171
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,279
my phone to listen to every once in a while.

1172
01:13:39,399 --> 01:13:44,960
His nineteen ninety six interview with William Luther Pierce about that, Yeah,

1173
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,520
and it was one of the only episodes that you'll

1174
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:53,319
ever hear Art Bell like going at the guests, like

1175
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:56,960
attacking the guests. It's wild. But the thing I love

1176
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:01,520
about it is Peerce is just so even I'm here

1177
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:03,960
to tell here to tell my story. I'm here to

1178
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,479
you know, answer all these ridiculous claims that have been

1179
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,359
made and everything. But yeah, there's some there's some good

1180
01:14:10,399 --> 01:14:14,199
stuff out there, and yeah, Turner Diaries and Hunter, those

1181
01:14:14,239 --> 01:14:16,399
are good books to check out, you know, I mean,

1182
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,199
some compelling writing, to say the least.

1183
01:14:21,399 --> 01:14:25,399
Speaker 2: There not to slam Alex Jones, because he's sort of

1184
01:14:25,399 --> 01:14:27,720
a folk hero for a lot of people, even to me,

1185
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:32,520
but it's like, yeah, Coast coasted that in the nineties,

1186
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:36,199
and it took Alex Jones until like twenty seventeen to

1187
01:14:36,279 --> 01:14:39,520
have David Duke on. And he came at David Duke

1188
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,760
the same way that William Luther Peerscott treated. So it's

1189
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:49,159
the same kind of tension in the right wing. And

1190
01:14:49,199 --> 01:14:50,960
this is one of the hypotheses of my book and

1191
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,880
my new book. It goes back to the John Birch

1192
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:57,119
Society in effect, where you have or between Buckley and

1193
01:14:57,399 --> 01:15:00,920
the National Review and the Real Rights, or between Buchanan

1194
01:15:01,399 --> 01:15:06,119
and the Conservative inc. There's this tension between the mainstream

1195
01:15:06,399 --> 01:15:11,520
post war consensus right and then the more principled hardline nationalists,

1196
01:15:12,279 --> 01:15:14,880
and that has always existed. This is why there was

1197
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,920
an alt right. This is why James Lindsay complains in

1198
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,600
that interview with Constantine Kissing, Well, they don't even actually

1199
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,760
attack the left, who supposes the real enemy. All they

1200
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,399
ever do is attack the conservatives because Conservative inc. Is

1201
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:33,079
a proximately our biggest threat, because our message. We have

1202
01:15:33,199 --> 01:15:37,279
to squeeze our message through this very narrow funnel to

1203
01:15:37,359 --> 01:15:40,680
get half or a quarter or a third of our

1204
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:46,640
ideas out in this very domesticated way, because Conservative inc.

1205
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:49,960
Is the problem. What did Nixon say, right a thousand times?

1206
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,119
The media is the enemy. Conservative inc. Is the enemy.

1207
01:15:53,159 --> 01:15:55,239
So that's you know, that says it all right there.

1208
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't the Clintons that got Thatt, Sam Francis

1209
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:05,159
cantiled and fired from his job. Yeah, it was the

1210
01:16:05,239 --> 01:16:10,279
quote unquote right wingers. Yeah, all right, Josh, I appreciate it,

1211
01:16:10,319 --> 01:16:11,840
thank you, and let's do it again.

1212
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:14,199
Speaker 2: Sim appreciate it absolutely