WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:04.799 It's nice size with Dan Ray. I'm going crazy Boston's 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:06.919 news radio. 3 00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:08.759 CALLI thanks very much, Kyle. This is Night's Eye with 4 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:13.119 Dan Ray. As we head from now until just before midnight, 5 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:16.160 Rob Brooks is back in the control room at the 6 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:21.320 Broadcast Center and in Medford, beautiful Medford, Massachusetts, and we 7 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:24.879 will begin taking your phone calls in the nine o'clock hour. 8 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.679 In the nine o'clock hour, we will be speaking with 9 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:33.399 the dean as the dean of the University of Michigan 10 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:38.759 Medical School. How about that doctor Marshall Rungey. He's written 11 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.039 a book called The Great Healthcare Disruption, and we will 12 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:47.000 talk with him during the nine o'clock hour, in part 13 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.960 talking about how difficult it is in this day and 14 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:55.439 age here in Massachusetts and probably elsewhere around the country 15 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:00.240 to actually secure the services of a doctor. There are 16 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.920 a lot of people who used to have you know, 17 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:07.680 what's called primary care physicians or family doctors, can't get 18 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.359 him at this point. They ad just in really scarce supply. 19 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:18.120 We'll also be following the Florida State University shooting today, 20 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:22.879 another on campus shooting tragedy, and then we're going to 21 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.040 talk at ten o'clock about President Trump's plan to try 22 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:31.680 to revoke the taxi exempt status of a bunch of universities, 23 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:35.640 including Harvard. And we'll be joined by Professor Steve Pinker, 24 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:40.319 who is a right of center psychology professor at Harvard. 25 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:43.920 He's also member of the Council and Academic Freedom at Harvard, 26 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.799 and though he's been very critical of what Harvard has 27 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:49.920 done and has not has not done, he does not 28 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.760 in any way, shape or form support what President Trump 29 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.560 is threatening. But before we get to all of that, 30 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:58.439 we're going to talk about Autism Awareness Month and three 31 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:03.959 other topics. My guest the first segment is Clain Oodie, 32 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:09.719 the founder of Autism Elevated and an author of Rebranding Autism, 33 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:14.240 A Guide to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Clain, Welcome 34 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:14.960 to Night's side. 35 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:18.240 Thank you for having me. Great to be here. 36 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:25.479 Okay, Autism Awareness Month. I think everyone has become very 37 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:30.120 aware of autism. Right now, as I understand it, the 38 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.039 number of children who are being diagnosed with autism is 39 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.599 like one in thirty one. This is down. This is 40 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.639 more kids today than ever before in America. So the 41 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.680 first question, what do you think is going on? Well? 42 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.319 I think I'm not an expert in this field, but 43 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.560 I do have. I thought about it a lot for 44 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.520 twenty eight years. I have an adult autistic son who 45 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:02.680 is diagnosed back when the numbers were one in sixty 46 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:06.360 four and in the year two thousand. So I've been, 47 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.919 you know, spend my entire life thinking about this. And 48 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:16.520 we actually even went did some early interventions. We we 49 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:20.680 he went through kelation therapy, which is based on the 50 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:26.080 idea that autistic people it's the vaccine theory that that 51 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.560 rfk is is talking about. Now we went down that 52 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:34.879 rabbit hole and found the results to be inconclusive at best. 53 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.639 So we have direct experience doing that. But I think 54 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.319 what's what's true and the science that I've read and 55 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:48.599 trust is that is largely genetic. Autism has always been 56 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.199 around with us in you know, throughout human history, and 57 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.840 so it's not something that that's going to be cured. 58 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.879 Is there a possibility or a likelihood even that there 59 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:06.639 could be some environmental factor that is amplifying that that's 60 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:11.319 a possibility hasn't been proven yet. And you know, another 61 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.079 theory is that you know, you have coupling, uh genetic coupling, 62 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:19.079 so you have you know, two people with you know, 63 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:23.160 similar genetic makeup that predisposes them to autism, and they 64 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:27.319 have children, and so that would explain the high concentration 65 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.160 of of autistic people in places like Silicon Valley and 66 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:35.199 up up there, you know, around mt the places. So 67 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:41.319 Simon Baron Cohen, it's a renowned autism scientists at Cambridge 68 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:46.040 over their autism program there, and he's done studies in 69 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.120 that regard to say that's he thinks it's it's largely 70 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:53.360 due to genetic coupling. And then I think also just 71 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:58.759 the awareness has has come about the definition of diagnosis 72 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.120 of autism, you know, it's been refined over the years, 73 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.720 especially since we went through that in the year two thousand. 74 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.879 So I think and I think also Dan, that a 75 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:15.000 lot of people are kind of self identifying, you know, 76 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:19.160 they recognize that there are kind of signatures within themselves 77 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.480 that kind of fit the description of autism. And it's 78 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:29.639 no surprise because again, autism is part of the human condition. 79 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:34.160 It's part of a brain profile, a cognitive profile that 80 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.480 has always been around and by the way, is responsible 81 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.959 for most of innovation throughout human history. So an inherent 82 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:43.759 part of who we are. 83 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.800 Yeah, people who are autistic can be very very broad. 84 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:52.759 I also know enough about autism. I've dealt with for 85 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:56.480 many years with the New England Center for Children here 86 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:01.199 in Selfborough, Massachusetts, which is a center for families who 87 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:06.199 have children with autism. It's also people probably realize this 88 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.480 that autism there's a spectrum, and there are some people 89 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:14.519 who have Aspergers, which is I guess a form of autism, 90 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:18.000 not nearly as pronounced. I was interested when you talked 91 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.160 about the genetic couplings. Is there any effort being made 92 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:26.040 for individuals to find out if they have a latent 93 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:31.240 gene that that would make their offspring more or less 94 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.120 likely to be to inherit this condition. 95 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:40.240 Yeah, I don't know if there's a genetic test. That's 96 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:42.600 that's kind of outside of my swim lane. So I'm 97 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.920 not sure the answer to that question. But it is 98 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:50.079 autism is a spectrum, and you know, the way, the 99 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.519 way I see it is if you have a pie, 100 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.120 you have certain you know, pieces of the pie, and 101 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:01.120 you have certain factors that that you look at that 102 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.360 are kind of signatures of autism. So for example, you 103 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:10.839 know sensory processing, language and speech, uh, you know flexibility 104 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.120 of routine so that you can you can sort of 105 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.399 look at it. Some people have bigger pieces of the 106 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.560 pie in the in some of those areas, and some 107 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:25.959 somehow smaller pieces, so they're affected less in those areas. 108 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.519 It's important to know that all of us have some 109 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.560 of this, you know, all of us like a routine, 110 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:38.120 all of us, like you know, I struggle. 111 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.839 With communications, social communication more than others. So you know, 112 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.680 it is an inherent part of who we are as 113 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.560 human beings. And what I would say is, you know, 114 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.480 what I'm focused on is the strengths because you know, 115 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:57.199 and we received our diagnosis and largely our experience has 116 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:02.079 been around this narrative, this languguage of deficit and disorder 117 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:06.519 and dysfunction, and that's basically what we were focused on 118 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:07.839 as parents early on. 119 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:12.439 Those that are a little overplayed. 120 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:17.240 Yeah, they're they're totally focused on that's you know, the 121 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:20.439 dominant narrative is around the challenges. 122 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:21.560 Uh. 123 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.319 And so I started to with our son. I made 124 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:29.519 a very deliberate effort, my wife and I I read, 125 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:32.840 you know, for the second time, I read first Break 126 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:36.360 All the Rules and now Discovery of Strength by Marcus Buckingham. 127 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.039 It was for a leadership course, and from that moment 128 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:44.480 on I changed my mind entirely, and I, you know, 129 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:51.039 dedicated myself to finding, nurturing and developing my son's strengths 130 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:56.000 and it changed everything for for him and for us. 131 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.679 And then from there I started I put together program 132 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:06.039 to help young adults recognize their strengths. See you there, 133 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.080 you know, develop a strength profile and the strength identity, 134 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.120 and then align to create. 135 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:14.200 This I assume is this is very much your book, 136 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.960 and I want to mention the book so in case 137 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.519 people out there, and I'm sure some people want to 138 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:24.360 get the book. The book is Rebranding Autism A Guide 139 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:29.399 to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Claim Udie, thank you 140 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.879 for being with us tonight. Thank you for explaining it 141 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:36.240 as clearly as you have. I understood everything that you said. 142 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:39.919 The book Rebranding Autism, a Guide to Seeing Strength on 143 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.480 the Spectrum. Appreciate your time. I hope your family and 144 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.799 your son are doing well, and I hope that as 145 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.799 time goes on, all of us will better appreciate and 146 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.840 understand these children who come along and who happen to 147 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.799 be dealing with autism and families that are dealing with autism, 148 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.960 and we all should be able to help them along 149 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:02.759 the path. Of life. Thank you so much for your 150 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:03.360 time tonight. 151 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:05.440 Thank you for shire it. 152 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:08.039 You're very welcome. When we get back, when we talk 153 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:12.360 about the marathon and a female runner who is an unexpected, 154 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:16.120 unlikely star, I will explain this is someone you want 155 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.240 to keep your eye on, maybe even as the winner 156 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.639 of the women's race on Monday. We'll explain right after 157 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:23.039 the break. 158 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.279 You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's 159 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:28.960 News radio. 160 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.279 Marathon is Monday. I think everybody knows that we have 161 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.320 all sorts of levels and classifications. Certainly there's the wheelchair division, 162 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:42.919 and there's the para para division, as all sorts of divisions, 163 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:48.399 and people run based upon their age levels. But the big, 164 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.960 the big obviously races that are watched, the men's and 165 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.039 the women's race, and of course that cast of characters 166 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:00.919 changes every year. Sometimes there's a winner coming back, but 167 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.320 this year there's an American runner who you might want 168 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.240 to keep your eye out for with us as a 169 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:11.399 mean Tory Boston Globe Sports Web producer and editor. Welcome, 170 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:12.960 I mean nice to have you with us. How are 171 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:13.600 you this evening. 172 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:16.879 I'm doing fine. Thank you, thanks for having me. I 173 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:17.600 appreciate it. 174 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.120 Oh, thanks very much for coming, for being available tonight. 175 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:23.720 I do the shows remotely, so it's not like you're 176 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.080 in the studio, but thank you for dropping by. I'll 177 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:30.360 put I'll use that euphemism. So you did a profile 178 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:36.039 on a runner named Kira Dematto who was described as 179 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:41.360 an unlikely star and she may, she may, she could 180 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.320 win the women's division. She was a runner in college 181 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.399 and then it kind of she forgot about it. I 182 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:52.399 guess tell us her story, because this is kind of 183 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.399 like somebody joining the Patriots at the age of thirty eight, 184 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.720 and it's like, what if where were they from the 185 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.360 last fifteen years? You know, well, they were working, you know. 186 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.840 Every once in a while you see a sports story 187 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.759 like this. The Red Sox had a pitcher last year, 188 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.759 Cam Boozer, who had retired and was a carpenter, and 189 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.720 then he was pitching in an independent league and he's 190 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.120 throwing ninety five ninety six and somebody took a look 191 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:16.600 at him and the Red Sox picked him up and 192 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.600 he's he's now pitching for the White Sox. But he 193 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:21.279 did pretty well with the Red Sox. That's kind of 194 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:25.120 the same story here, I think. Tell us about Kira Demato. 195 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.039 Yeah, I mean, Kira's god really one of the most 196 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.879 unique stories in marathoning. She was, you know, she was 197 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.399 an All American at American University. You know, she's got 198 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.240 a real running pedigree. Of course, she had a lot 199 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:39.799 of talent, but you know, she graduated in two thousand 200 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.200 and six, and she had a lot of injuries right 201 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:45.200 out of college, and she just decided to kind of 202 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.200 call it quits, you know, go kind of back to 203 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:49.600 a normal life. She got a real estate license, she 204 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.080 had three kids, and she kind of put running away 205 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:56.159 for six seven years. In twenty thirteen, she decided to 206 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.360 run her first marathon, and she ran it in three 207 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.519 hours and forty nine minutes, which for a lot of 208 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:07.519 folks is a pretty decent time, but is almost an 209 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.759 hour and a half slower than what the top elite 210 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.440 women in the world say are running these days. And 211 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.360 so she stopped running again for a few years. In 212 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.440 twenty seventeen, at the age of thirty two, she signed 213 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:21.200 her husband up for a marathon as a joke, decided 214 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.080 to run it herself. Ran three fourteen to qualify for Boston, 215 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.519 ran two forty seven a few months later to get 216 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:30.120 into the pro field, and a couple of years later, 217 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.559 thirty seven years old, she ran two hours and nineteen 218 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.960 minutes to become the American record holder in the in 219 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:40.399 the marathon. So it's an incredible rise to go from 220 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:44.200 in the space of four years from having run one 221 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.879 marathon fairly slowly to being like the best of the 222 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:51.440 fastest American women's marathon or in history. So she's had, 223 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.600 she's had some story. 224 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:57.279 When I read your story, how did you identify her? 225 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:01.200 I mean, is this your I mean, you're a sports guy. 226 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.440 I'm sure you cover a little football, a little baseball, 227 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:06.080 little this, little that. How did you find this story? 228 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:07.559 This is a great story. 229 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:13.320 Yeah, yeah, Well, so I'm a runner myself. I'm you know, 230 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.399 I did my first marathon in the fall. I've always 231 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.639 been very interested into it. And Kira is at this point, 232 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.320 you know, she's one of the biggest stars in marathoning, 233 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.440 and so she's you know, she's sort of pretty pretty 234 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:29.360 famous in that world, and her story is pretty pretty 235 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.000 well known in that world. And so I saw, you know, 236 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.840 once she was she was coming to Boston, not for 237 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:36.720 the first time. A lot of us thought it was 238 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:39.159 the first time because the first time she raised Boston 239 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.320 was in twenty eighteen when she was, you know, a 240 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:46.000 two forty seven marathoner that was barely being allowed into 241 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 the pro field. And she's coming back seven years later, 242 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.360 as you know, the second now the second fastest American 243 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.360 woman in history. So so you know, it's I think 244 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.279 in the world of running, en world of marathoning, her 245 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.200 story is pretty special, bean, pretty famous. 246 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.000 Okay, here's the question. I noticed in your article that 247 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:07.200 she's been working with some coaches in Utah, but it 248 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:10.519 didn't sound as if she was from Utah. So obviously, 249 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:13.639 this is a young woman who graduates from American University 250 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.720 in Washington, d C. When she started out in life 251 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.399 as that real estate agent, whereabouts was she working? But 252 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.559 she working in an area where you wouldn't be doing 253 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.840 a lot of running. I guess you train in Utah 254 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.240 because of the mountains and the heights, and you get 255 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:29.120 you get better because you're training in tougher conditions. So 256 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.440 where where was she before she finally decided to take 257 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:38.000 it for real, real, really seriously and go to your Utah. 258 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.679 Yeah, so, as far as I know Kira's she's from Virginia. 259 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.679 I know she's from the from the DC area. I 260 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.679 think she yeah, so she went. She went to American 261 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.200 University in DC. She was based in Richmond for a 262 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.159 long time. I think that's where she settled down after 263 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:53.840 she got married and got her license. And then I 264 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.240 think in this last year she had sort of a 265 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.879 difficult twenty twenty four. She was a big favorite to 266 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.879 make the American Olympic team in the marathon, but I 267 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:03.799 think she got hurt on the day she didn't make 268 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.840 the team. And I think at this point, you know, 269 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:08.879 I think she's I think she just turned forty last year. 270 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.039 I think she's kind of trying to make one more 271 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.799 big push with her career. So she moved to Utah 272 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.799 to work with at Eyestone, who's long the cross country 273 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.559 and track coach at BYU. He's the coach of Connor 274 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.279 Manson Clayton Young, who are the top two American men 275 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.639 in the field on Monday, both BYU grads, and so 276 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.240 I think she just wanted to shift to what is 277 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:30.799 a very competitive training environment with some of the best 278 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.720 marathoners in the world, the world renowned coach at altitude 279 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:36.799 to kind of give it, you know, give it one 280 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.799 last shot to run fast in these next couple of years, 281 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.720 maybe even in the next Olympic cycle, maybe try to 282 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.000 reclaim her American record. So I think this is you know, 283 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:47.559 this is kind of a change she made to make 284 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:49.200 sort of one last push with her career. 285 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.840 Great story. This is just a great story, and people 286 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.240 should be looking for her. Kira Demato is her name, 287 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:03.879 and I mean, this is this is a great story. 288 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.839 It's one of those stories. It's almost too good to 289 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:10.359 be true. I mean, you know, the marathon is that 290 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.480 they're peaked. They're not in their twenties. There's a lot 291 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.599 of them that hit their late twenties and thirties and 292 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.240 they peak out at thirty two or thirty three. So 293 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.799 she wasn't even involved heavily in the sport. Great story. 294 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:24.960 Thanks for sharing it with us, and hopefully this will 295 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:29.640 make Monday's marathon much more interesting, particularly because it's an 296 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.640 American runner and because we haven't done that well in 297 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.480 marathons in recent years, including Boston. Thanks so much for 298 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:38.680 your time. Where'd you grow up? You a Boston guy? Originally? 299 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.680 Yeah, I grew up in Watertown, so so I am 300 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:44.559 so I am from here. I grew up in Watertown. 301 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:45.319 I live in Brooklyn. 302 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.319 Excellent excellent. It's good. It's good that the Globe has 303 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.400 some people from the area, that's for sure. You know, yeah, 304 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.039 Mi Peal, Dan Shaughnessy grew up in Groton, and you know, 305 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.480 Kevin Paul DuPont. It's great to have some local guys 306 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:06.599 really understand the sports heritage of this city is what anyway, Congratulations, 307 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:10.200 congratulates a great job, Boston Globe Sports web producer and editor. 308 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.720 We'll be back right after the news at the bottom 309 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.680 of the hour, and we're going to talk about something 310 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.680 that should be of concern to everyone going to It's 311 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.720 labeled beyond fake photos. A new report reveals how everyday 312 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.559 AI tools can be taught to steal your passwords. Just 313 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.920 another thing to worry about. Right after the break. Here 314 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:32.559 on Nightside, my name's Dan Ray is WBZ, Boston's News radio, 315 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.680 ten thirty am dial. We're an iHeartRadio station. Pull down 316 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.319 our iHeart app, put it on all your devices, and 317 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:41.240 make us your number one preset. That way, we'll always 318 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.440 be just a finger tip away. Back on nights Side, 319 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:45.279 right after the news. 320 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:51.400 It's Night Side, Boston's News Radio. 321 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.359 All right, we are all talking about, or at least 322 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:01.319 at different levels, we're talking about artificial intelligence, and now 323 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.440 we have to think about what are the implications of 324 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:10.079 artificial intelligence with us? Now is Eti Mayor. He's the 325 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:15.640 chief security strategist of CATO Networks. Apparently there's a new report, 326 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:20.039 Eti that reveals how everyday AI tools and many of 327 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.559 us don't even know what our regular AI tools can 328 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.960 be taught to steal our passwords. Just something else for 329 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.519 us to worry about. How are you this evening, Eti? 330 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:33.519 I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on. 331 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.440 You're very welcome, Thanks for coming on. So what's this 332 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:39.000 all about again? It's a little bit about my pay grade, 333 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.480 but I want to listen. 334 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:44.440 And learn, Okay, so let me explain. So, we recently 335 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.119 released the twenty twenty five CATO Threat Report, and in 336 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.759 the report, we detailed how we, using our technique called 337 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:59.759 narrative engineering, convinced all the leading AI tools you know deepseeak, Open, ais, Chagipt, 338 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.799 Copilot to actually create software for us to steal passwords 339 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.079 from browsers. Now, for those who are unfamiliar with what 340 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.799 is narrative engineering, we basically convince these AI tools that 341 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.720 they now live in a world where creating fishing and 342 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.079 malware and viruses is actually a good thing. So we 343 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:21.319 actually jail broke them, remove the guardrails that prevent you 344 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.440 from doing bad things using these tools, and convince them 345 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.960 to create a software for us that can steal passwords 346 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:27.720 from a browser. 347 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:34.640 Who imposes the guardrails on these items? So these items exist. 348 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:41.039 I think people have some familiarity with these products that 349 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.559 you're talking about. But who imposes the guardrails and did 350 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:47.759 they give you permission or did you just do this 351 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.640 as an academic exercise to remove the guardrails? 352 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.119 So great question. The guardrails are said by the companies 353 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.440 that manufacture these chatbots and AI tools. So Open Ai 354 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.359 creatept and they put the guardrails. Microsoft create copils and 355 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.680 they put the guardrails Deep Sick just the same. And 356 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.240 what we did is we did this exercise to see 357 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:13.480 if the guardrails can be removed. Of course, once we 358 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.359 saw what that meant and the implications, we reported this 359 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:19.319 back to the companies so they can improve their products 360 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.400 so criminals don't use this capability to create this type 361 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.000 of malware. 362 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.599 I see. So you what the service that you provide 363 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.279 almost is Let's say I have a factory and I 364 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.839 think that my factory when we walk up at night 365 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.400 at six o'clock at night until we reopen in the 366 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.880 morning at eight o'clock in the morning, is impregnable. But sometimes, 367 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.240 if I'm smart, I'll hire a company and I'll say, look, 368 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.079 see if you can break into my factory or break 369 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:53.079 into my jewelry store and get around work around the 370 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.039 electronic alarm system. It's kind of the same principle. And 371 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.079 if you do it, then maybe you can show me 372 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.599 where the flaws are in my alarm system and actually 373 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.400 make my store on my factory impregnable to thieves. This 374 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.920 is kind of the same principle. Yes, no, so yeah. 375 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.359 What you describe right now is exactly what's called red 376 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.319 teaming in the cybersecurity world, where you hire a group 377 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.599 of security professionals to try and break and hack your 378 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.440 company or your network or your product so you can 379 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.799 better secure it. That's not really what CATO provides. We 380 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:31.279 actually provide a solution later to secure everything. But we 381 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.240 did this exercise of doing this kind of red teaming 382 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:38.759 and finding the vulnerabilities in the AI to better understand 383 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.880 these tools that everybody is using. We want to understand 384 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.400 do they also bring in any risk with them, and 385 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:47.039 how could potentially bad people use this? 386 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.799 Well, I say this, thank God that you folks are 387 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:57.160 around doing this, because if you're not, these tools will 388 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:01.279 be out there and available. And you know, with every 389 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.519 breakthrough there comes i think a potential risk and a 390 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:10.119 potential cost. And you know, God bless you for what 391 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:14.279 you're doing there. What was the reaction of these companies 392 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.160 you mentioned. Was it Meta was one of them? Or 393 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.880 is Meta not involved in this? 394 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:22.920 No, Meta was not involved in this one, but it 395 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.000 was Deep sick, Microsoft and open Ai, and we reported 396 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.559 this back to them. I can tell you that we 397 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:35.599 didn't really get a response from Deep Sick Microsoft. Microsoft 398 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.640 actually acknowledged it and said that they're going to fix it. 399 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.119 But I think what you mentioned is one of the 400 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.960 most important things here, and that is with every new 401 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.279