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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Why we do what we do. I am your

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<v Speaker 1>extinct scientist host Abraham.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm your looking for another career host Shane.

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<v Speaker 1>We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things

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<v Speaker 1>that humans and non human animals do, and today we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be talking about some terrible things that might

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<v Speaker 1>happen to destroy science and our country. And so this

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<v Speaker 1>is about how to kill science.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I think that this is going

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<v Speaker 2>to be an important message for anybody who is working

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<v Speaker 2>in a science field, working in a stemmed field, anything

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<v Speaker 2>like that that goes well, science isn't political. Science doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>care about politics, Yes it does, and we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about that because I think as a scientist you

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<v Speaker 2>would be irresponse to ignore politics because it does impact

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<v Speaker 2>so much of what we do.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, even if you believe science doesn't care about politics,

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<v Speaker 1>the politics care about science and they're about the there

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<v Speaker 1>are gonna be the ones about to pull the trigger,

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<v Speaker 1>to swing the blade, to drop the trapdoor under the noose.

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<v Speaker 1>Insert yes execution metaphor here, because that's where we're going.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you're joining us for the first time, then

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<v Speaker 1>welcome We hope you enjoy with you here in this discussion.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not generally all doom and gloom. Generally, I think

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<v Speaker 1>we're actually quite cheerful and fun. That's true, but we

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<v Speaker 1>do have to face the realities of this world from

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<v Speaker 1>time to time. If you are a returning person, then

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<v Speaker 1>welcome back. I'm glad we didn't scare you away in

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<v Speaker 1>the past. Maybe we will today. We're not trying to,

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<v Speaker 1>but it could happen. Thank you for joining us either way,

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<v Speaker 1>And if you'd like to support us, you can join

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<v Speaker 1>us on Patreon, leave us a rating and a review,

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<v Speaker 1>like subscribe, tell a friend, etc. I'll talk more about

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<v Speaker 1>those at the end of this discussion. But this episode

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<v Speaker 1>publishes in the middle of the year. We're now like,

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<v Speaker 1>we're right in it. We're in the bell curve of

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<v Speaker 1>the year, if you will.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh.

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<v Speaker 1>It is June tenth, so happy ballpoint pen Day.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh. It is also Herbs and Spices Day.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Herbs and Spices. It is too National black Cow Day.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes it is. It's also and this makes sense, it's

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<v Speaker 2>National Iced Tea Day. It's real hot.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, seriously, it is America the Beautiful Week. Moving on,

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<v Speaker 1>MM hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a bedbug awareness week.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm aware, all right. It is Meet a Mate Week. Cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, sure, go meet that mate, Meet a meat. It

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<v Speaker 2>is National Automotive Service Professional Week, so happy Automotive Service

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<v Speaker 2>Professional Week to my brother.

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<v Speaker 1>Cool. National Body Piercing Week. Sweet.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right. It's National Frozen Yogurt Week.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, yeah, National Little League Baseball Week. That makes sense

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<v Speaker 1>for the beginning of June. That.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It's Pet Appreciation Week. I appreciate my pets.

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<v Speaker 1>Same, yeah, I do it all year. It is shampoo week.

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<v Speaker 1>We did a mini maybe our first mini on shampoo

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<v Speaker 1>or it was like in the first couple.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I would say very early on. So I

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<v Speaker 2>also do shampoo every week.

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<v Speaker 1>Same, same, all right. But we are not here to

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<v Speaker 1>just discuss holidays to just figure you know, you're here

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<v Speaker 1>and you probably celebrate one of those holidays. That's not true,

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<v Speaker 1>But in spirit of fun, we're just gonna list those

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<v Speaker 1>things off so that you know, and you can wish

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<v Speaker 1>somebody a happy National Black Cow Day on your way

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<v Speaker 1>to work or something. Anyway. Yeah, we are talking about

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<v Speaker 1>how to kill science. So let's jump in with our

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<v Speaker 1>opening information that you need to have here. Which is

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<v Speaker 1>that the Trump administration is proposing a massive, sweeping overhaul

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<v Speaker 1>to the system for federal grants and research. The claim

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<v Speaker 1>of the recently released four hundred and twelve page proposal,

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<v Speaker 1>The claim that they're making is that these changes will

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<v Speaker 1>cut down un waste, fraud, and abuse. However, the document

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<v Speaker 1>actually spells out a plan for the government to have

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<v Speaker 1>complete control over scientific research and findings.

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<v Speaker 2>That should be concerning. Yeah, obviously, like if you've listened

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<v Speaker 2>to the show, then you know that we have a

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<v Speaker 2>particular bias against this particular administration. However, you don't have

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<v Speaker 2>to take our word for it. We're going to tell

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<v Speaker 2>you exactly what it says based on objective, Like we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to have quotes, we're going to have direct points,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to have It's not going to be like

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<v Speaker 2>we hate this administration. It's gonna be like, no, this

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<v Speaker 2>is what this actual document says. As scientists, we always

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<v Speaker 2>try to be charitable, we always try to approach this

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<v Speaker 2>from this space, and we're going to read those key

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<v Speaker 2>sections from the proposal and comment on them because I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's important to know what but exactly they're saying

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<v Speaker 2>in this document that is publicly available to read.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is. Well, there's a link to this document

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<v Speaker 1>in the notes, and there is also a way for

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<v Speaker 1>the public to share their thoughts about this, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to share ours, and I would encourage you listeners

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<v Speaker 1>to share os as well. But first we need to

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<v Speaker 1>get into a little background about what is all happening here,

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<v Speaker 1>and that will, I think help set the context for

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<v Speaker 1>why this matters and the significance of it. But is

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<v Speaker 1>there anything that I'm missing that or you'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>add before we jump into this discussion here.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think so. I think we got it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the document in question we're describing here was

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<v Speaker 1>published by the Office of Management and Budget or OMB,

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<v Speaker 1>which is now as of twenty twenty five, headed by

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<v Speaker 1>right wing Christian nationalist Russell Vatt, who was also the

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<v Speaker 1>lead architect of the Heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>You may have remember hearing about this during the election

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty four. This is a massive document that

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<v Speaker 1>outlines the Conservative's plan to convert the United States into

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<v Speaker 1>a dictatorship. And you think I'm being hyperbolic, and I

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<v Speaker 1>am not. No, it essentially proposed that we make the

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<v Speaker 1>Handmaid's Tail universe a real place and that that is

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<v Speaker 1>here in the United States. Yeah, it is basically just that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And many of the many of the policies that

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<v Speaker 2>have been implemented since the administration has taken control have

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<v Speaker 2>aligned with the overall outcomes of Project twenty twenty five. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all there in writing. It's plain sight, it's real bad.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's aggressively disquieting.

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<v Speaker 2>Aggressively bad. Yeah. Yeah. So the Trump administration is a

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<v Speaker 2>point in several politicians, corporate shills, TV personalities another aggressively

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<v Speaker 2>underqualified lunatics to several key positions at the top of

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<v Speaker 2>government agencies, including the National Institute of Health ANDIH, which

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<v Speaker 2>oversees the distribution of funds for tens of thousands of

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<v Speaker 2>research grants every year. And again, I know that that

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<v Speaker 2>might sound aggressive, but doctor Oz is not qualified for

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<v Speaker 2>the position he's in now. RFK is not qualified for

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<v Speaker 2>the position that he's in now. Arguably Pambondi was not qualified.

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<v Speaker 2>The people that are in his cabinet and in his

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<v Speaker 2>administration are not qualified for the positions that they're in.

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<v Speaker 1>Objectively, yeah, very much, objectively, like they don't have experience,

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<v Speaker 1>they don't have education. They fired all of the people

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<v Speaker 1>who are in charge of the vaccine panel and appointed

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theorists and like YouTube personalities, people with little education,

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<v Speaker 1>no degrees, no experience. They were just from the supplement

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<v Speaker 1>industry who wanted to push an anti vaccine agenda. They've

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<v Speaker 1>have gutted the CDC. People have otherwise resigned from their

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<v Speaker 1>positions because of the pressure they were facing to do

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<v Speaker 1>super illegal, unethical stuff. So those are the kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>people who currently head a lot of those departments.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Historically, the United States has been one of the largest

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<v Speaker 1>and most profound leaders in scientific research and discovery in

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<v Speaker 1>the last In fact, the economic rise of the United

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<v Speaker 1>States and it's a set to being one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most powerful countries in the world, is entirely correlated with

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<v Speaker 1>and a result of the fact that the government started

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<v Speaker 1>pouring enormous amounts of money into scientific research and making

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<v Speaker 1>a real commitment to science as a process.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I just read this book Following to Earth,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was about the space program, the moon landing

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<v Speaker 2>programs and all that, and the polo programs, And one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things that was a recurring theme was that

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<v Speaker 2>during certain administrations, the funding kept getting cut, so they

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<v Speaker 2>were having to figure out new ways to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to achieve the research they were trying to do while

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<v Speaker 2>funding was being cut for scientific aeronautical research. And wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>you know it that the administration that was doing all

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<v Speaker 2>the cutting was a Republican conservative administration. And he makes

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<v Speaker 2>that abundantly clear in that book while he's working on

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<v Speaker 2>these programs. So importantly, politicians at the time also understood,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's not the Space program, but kind of what

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<v Speaker 2>we're at now. Politicians understood that the best people to

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<v Speaker 2>facilitate the distribution of resources to scientific endeavors and to

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<v Speaker 2>regulate the quality of those studies where people who are

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<v Speaker 2>experts in the subject matter. That's a lot of where

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of grant program started in these scientific programs began.

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<v Speaker 2>What that means is experts in medicine reviewed research proposals

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<v Speaker 2>for medicine medical research. People who are experts in law

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<v Speaker 2>enforcement reviewed and supported research proposals around law enforcement. People

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<v Speaker 2>who are experts in energy production review and support research

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<v Speaker 2>and energy production. So people who are experts in psychology

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<v Speaker 2>review and support proposals for psychological research, et cetera, et

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<v Speaker 2>cetera et cetera. People who are in the field of

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<v Speaker 2>the people who are reviewing, who are making decisions, who

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<v Speaker 2>are issuing the grants, those types of things, like people

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<v Speaker 2>who know the actual science and subject of what they're reviewing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they are experienced, they are educated, They are often

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<v Speaker 1>researchers themselves. They have been doing the work, so they

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<v Speaker 1>understand the kinds of things that make the most sense

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<v Speaker 1>and with things don't make sense, and how to support

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<v Speaker 1>further advancement. And that has been, if not the reason

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<v Speaker 1>science has been so successful in this country, and historically

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<v Speaker 1>it is at least one of the most important reasons,

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<v Speaker 1>right that this has worked. Because it's not just enough

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<v Speaker 1>to pour a bunch of money into science, as we'll

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<v Speaker 1>actually see in a second, it is that that science

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be independently governed by the scientists.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>They are the ones who monitor and track these because

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<v Speaker 1>they know what they're doing. The other important thing about this,

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<v Speaker 1>and the reason I just mentioned as being independent, is

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<v Speaker 1>that these experts are not subject to or influenced by

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<v Speaker 1>the government. Obviously, people have political leanings and whatnot, but

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<v Speaker 1>the government can't just come in and tell these people

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<v Speaker 1>what to do about grants and research and science and

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing or else as a risk that

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<v Speaker 1>the government could also control the narrative about what research

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<v Speaker 1>has to say and say instead what the government wants

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<v Speaker 1>it to say. And the importance of this really could

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<v Speaker 1>not be overstated. Other countries have done this, they've taken

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<v Speaker 1>control of the scientific narrative. You have such scientific strongholds

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<v Speaker 1>as I ran Russia, Germany in the nineteen forties, and

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<v Speaker 1>North Korea. I call those scientific strongholds facetiously because those

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<v Speaker 1>are not scientific strongholds. These are places where they quashed, quelled,

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<v Speaker 1>and destroyed people's research if it didn't align with the

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<v Speaker 1>government's policies or their government's ideas about what they want

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<v Speaker 1>the truth to be about things. And we've also seen

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<v Speaker 1>what happens when authoritarian and communist governments try to control

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<v Speaker 1>the narrative of scientific research. Chernobyl is one example. The

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<v Speaker 1>government had a specific agenda. It didn't want to accept

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<v Speaker 1>certain truths and realities about what was going on, and

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<v Speaker 1>so instead of doing the right thing, they caused a

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<v Speaker 1>giant meltdown that could play destroyed the landscape and killed

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<v Speaker 1>tons of people. Yep, that's what happens when the government

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<v Speaker 1>makes decisions about things that are science based instead of scientists.

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<v Speaker 1>But scientific research becomes essentially nothing when you depend on

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<v Speaker 1>politicians to try and be in control of these systems.

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<v Speaker 1>It's untrustworthy, it's ignored by the rest of the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and is a giant waste of time, effort, and money.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of like ads, Okay, we're back. We've been describing

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<v Speaker 1>essentially the way to have science work and be effective

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<v Speaker 1>and facilitate a country to be a flourishing nation.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so at this point, you know, we've been kind

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<v Speaker 2>of talking about, like, you know, the problem with government

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<v Speaker 2>control over science, and we've seen those examples and really

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<v Speaker 2>what it is yielded, which is not great results. The

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<v Speaker 2>point is, the smart decision was and always has been

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<v Speaker 2>to put experts in charge of helping to drive innovation

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<v Speaker 2>forward in their respective fields. You need experts in the

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<v Speaker 2>field to know the field well enough to make decisions

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<v Speaker 2>and being scientifically literate about the field to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to make decisions about where that research could or should

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<v Speaker 2>or maybe would benefit from going. This has worked extremely well,

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<v Speaker 2>probably better than they could have even predicted, because scientists

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<v Speaker 2>know what they are doing and politicians are stupid at

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<v Speaker 2>best at best to be charitable. Yeah, they're not smart

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<v Speaker 2>people in terms of at least these respective fields, and

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<v Speaker 2>like this expertise, that's not where they're experts. They're experts

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<v Speaker 2>in policy and maybe backchannel deal baking, but certainly not

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<v Speaker 2>the science part of it. So now, of course, conservative

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<v Speaker 2>politicians set a whole new low when it comes to stupid,

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<v Speaker 2>and Christian nationalism represents the kind of stupid that didn't

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<v Speaker 2>seem possible for human beings. We digress again, so let's

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<v Speaker 2>get back on track.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the Trump administration had been appointing all of

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<v Speaker 1>these shills and figureheads to these positions where they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do the government's bidding, but the courts were blocking

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<v Speaker 1>their ability to curtail and control math the narrative of

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<v Speaker 1>scientific research. And so this proposal we're discussing today, by

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<v Speaker 1>the OMB, this was developed to rewrite government policy about

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<v Speaker 1>funding scientific research. So for the next section of this discussion,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of what we're going to be doing is

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<v Speaker 1>quoting news sources directly and the proposal itself directly, and

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<v Speaker 1>commenting on what these people are saying about what is

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<v Speaker 1>going on here. And this doesn't follow any particular order,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just sort of highlights about what's in this. As

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<v Speaker 1>we mentioned, it's four hundred and twelve pages, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>quite long. We're not going to read the whole thing

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<v Speaker 1>to you because that would turn this into a thirty

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<v Speaker 1>hour podcast, but we will get into some of the

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<v Speaker 1>key chunks that we need to discuss.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, let's go and start with this

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<v Speaker 2>first ballpoint, and I'm going to read this directly. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is a direct quote. The Office of Management and

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<v Speaker 2>Budget's omb proposed rule is in escalation of the administration's

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<v Speaker 2>relentless attacks on independent science. This is a quote from

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<v Speaker 2>Jewels Barbody Dashes of the Center for Science and Democracy

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<v Speaker 2>at the Union of Concerned Scientists in a statement that

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<v Speaker 2>they put out. And then it goes further. It says,

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<v Speaker 2>quote it replaces scientific merit with a political loyalty test

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<v Speaker 2>and could be used to silence research that is politically

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<v Speaker 2>inconvenient for the administration. End quote. Now Barbodi a Daches

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<v Speaker 2>actually warns that the proposal would quote give politically connected

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<v Speaker 2>industries a functional veto over research that might reveal risks

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<v Speaker 2>associated with products and practices. End quote. You know when

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<v Speaker 2>I read that, and you kind of hear that, my

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<v Speaker 2>first thought is, oh, like this is where data centers

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be a real problem, because if they

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<v Speaker 2>are creating a substantial amount of pollution in certain communities

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<v Speaker 2>and they have to do water research about whether polluted

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<v Speaker 2>water from data centers is creating diseases in these communities

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that, like that research could be kiboshed.

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<v Speaker 2>It could be immediately shut down because it doesn't benefit

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<v Speaker 2>when data centers are making money for the government or

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<v Speaker 2>something along those lines, so or for you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>in those spaces. So like I could see that being

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<v Speaker 2>an example of like, oh, there's a health risk going on,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't benefit the government or the government's values per se,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're gonna go ahead and we're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>approve that research because it doesn't align with our goals.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I'm realizing now that I've sort of jumped

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<v Speaker 1>ahead a little bit by starting with the criticism here,

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<v Speaker 1>let's actually describe fairly clearly what the proposal is as

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<v Speaker 1>part of this. Yeah, So one of the features of

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<v Speaker 1>the new proposal is that they want to end international

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<v Speaker 1>research collaboration.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is insane, Like that's insane. We are a.

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<v Speaker 1>Global community at this point, Like, yes, we have individual countries,

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<v Speaker 1>but everything that we do affects everybody else in the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and vice versa. The things that they do affect us.

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<v Speaker 1>There are not issues really that are so geographically bound

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<v Speaker 1>that they don't apply to other places in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>So international research collaboration is just a thing that you

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<v Speaker 1>need to do or else what are you doing? So

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<v Speaker 1>with the current rules, they want to essentially end that

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<v Speaker 1>their sort of policy is domestic first, which who knows

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<v Speaker 1>what that even means, right, Like basically you have to

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<v Speaker 1>say just America thirty times in your proposal, and they

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<v Speaker 1>for them to even consider it. They do say they'll

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<v Speaker 1>consider in an international collaboration on a case by case basis,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's really going to be does it support the

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<v Speaker 1>agenda of the president and the current administration whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not that that collaboration would be even considered. So they

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<v Speaker 1>really want to stop that, which, by the way, like

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<v Speaker 1>this is long standing scientific practice is to do international

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<v Speaker 1>collaboration because that is the best way to move forward,

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<v Speaker 1>is to get as many people involved as possible and

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<v Speaker 1>sort of share knowledge.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Another thing that they want to cut here is scientists

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<v Speaker 1>generally can use part of the funding that they get

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<v Speaker 1>from grants to pay for a time conferences. So most

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<v Speaker 1>scientists work at academic institutions, maybe not most, A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of scientists who are doing research work at academic institutions

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<v Speaker 1>where they apply for federal grants. There are also private

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<v Speaker 1>companies who have scientists who also apply for and receive

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<v Speaker 1>federal grants. There's like a lot of different ways that

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<v Speaker 1>grants get distributed to various scientific entities. But the point

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<v Speaker 1>is the conferences represent an opportunity for scientists to show up,

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<v Speaker 1>present their work to each other and learn new things

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<v Speaker 1>and continue to disseminate and advance the field. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of conference attendants is paid for by institutions from grant

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<v Speaker 1>funding specifically, and that includes funding students to go to

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<v Speaker 1>these conferences. Well, they would like to essentially cut completely

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<v Speaker 1>any funding that could be used to go to spend

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<v Speaker 1>on going to conferences. It would only be allowed if

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<v Speaker 1>participation in the event was expressly approved by the funding

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<v Speaker 1>agency and written into the grant, regardless of whether the

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<v Speaker 1>conference was a noun after the point where they could

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<v Speaker 1>have asked for that funding to go to that. So

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<v Speaker 1>it does not consider anything like that Because when people

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<v Speaker 1>write grants and the funds for grants, they have to

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<v Speaker 1>set aside how those funds are going to be used,

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<v Speaker 1>and things like continuing education and research are part of

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<v Speaker 1>what they have to write. So they're basically saying you

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<v Speaker 1>can't do that anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>And then something that we don't spend enough time talking

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<v Speaker 2>about is that conferences are one of the best ways

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<v Speaker 2>to disseminate new research and information and like bite sized chunks. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and fast and fast. I mean you can get a

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<v Speaker 2>lot you know. I know, you just got back from

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<v Speaker 2>a conference. I go to conferences all the time. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and between the two of us, I'm sure we go

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<v Speaker 2>to hundreds of conferences constantly. But when we think about that,

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<v Speaker 2>like every one of the hours that you're there is

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<v Speaker 2>an opportunity to learn some new science, right. And so

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<v Speaker 2>so if I'm on a research grant, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>go to a conference that is related to my research

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<v Speaker 2>grant that is going to offer me different insights about

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<v Speaker 2>the particular subject that I'm looking at or I'm interested in.

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<v Speaker 2>And now you have basically cut off a space where

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<v Speaker 2>information can low freely. That's essentially what this is saying

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<v Speaker 2>is like, no, you can't go to that at least

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<v Speaker 2>under this grant, so pay for it out of your

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<v Speaker 2>own pocket, which is sometimes not affordable, and you can

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<v Speaker 2>go you can go this conference. But they're basically saying, no,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't go to those anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, conferences are extremely expensive to put on, extremely expensive,

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<v Speaker 1>Like you would not even believe how expensive they are,

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<v Speaker 1>and they do not tend to make a very significant

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<v Speaker 1>profit from people attending those conferences, so they often charge

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<v Speaker 1>hundreds of dollars sometimes for attendance from professionals. Now often

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<v Speaker 1>students get an express discount, and like people who are

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<v Speaker 1>maybe like sustained members, I don't know. There's like various

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<v Speaker 1>ways to tier the membership system to try and facilitate

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<v Speaker 1>people who have fewer resources available. But part of the

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<v Speaker 1>reason that they can exist is because they kind of

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<v Speaker 1>subsidize those lower tiers by charging higher prices to people

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<v Speaker 1>who have grant funding that can help pay for those conferences.

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<v Speaker 1>So all of that ensures that that dissemination can continue.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, most definitely, they're trying to not just cut this.

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<v Speaker 1>Off at the knees. They were trying to set it

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<v Speaker 1>on fire and throw in the trash, like it would

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<v Speaker 1>just does not exist any longer. This would greatly greatly

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<v Speaker 1>affect professional conferences. And importantly, when these conferences happen, they

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<v Speaker 1>usually set up in a city and they usually rent

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<v Speaker 1>a conference or they like get conference space. They set

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<v Speaker 1>up a hotel block, there's rental cars, there's flights the amount,

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<v Speaker 1>and then thousands and thousands of people show up to

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<v Speaker 1>this thing and they bring with them money, Like they

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<v Speaker 1>go to this place and they buy dinner, they buy food,

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<v Speaker 1>they go sight seeing, and they're paid for hotel rooms,

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<v Speaker 1>they're paying taxes in this city. So cutting off a

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<v Speaker 1>funding source for going to these not only hurts the conference,

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<v Speaker 1>it also hurts the cities that would have held that

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<v Speaker 1>conference and all the travel industry and tourism industry that

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<v Speaker 1>would have supported the people who go to that conference

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So it is basically just taking the economy and shoving

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<v Speaker 1>a knife in its gut and being like take that.

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<v Speaker 2>Hah, yeah, it's absurd.

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<v Speaker 1>And with that, I say, insert ad into this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Take that.

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<v Speaker 1>Ha, Okay, we're back. We've been talking about the conference.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a very small part of this. But the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that they're trying to essentially end conferences or cut them

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<v Speaker 1>down to extremely bare bones. The overall rules for overhead

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<v Speaker 1>cost rates for research grants would not change in this

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<v Speaker 1>particular situation. So we have to really quickly describe grant structure,

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<v Speaker 1>which sounds really boring, but I can summarize it, I

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<v Speaker 1>think fairly cohesively. So understand that like a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the scientists who applied for these are at universities of

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<v Speaker 1>some kind, private, public, whatever. They're at universities, and the

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<v Speaker 1>university has to pay that researchers, that scientists salary. They

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<v Speaker 1>often have to set them up with the lab. They

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<v Speaker 1>have to pay for their internet and their equipment and

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<v Speaker 1>their desks, and like, they have to pay a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of money to keep a researcher and a research team

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<v Speaker 1>in their space. So when a researcher brings in grants,

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00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.240
<v Speaker 1>then the university takes a percentage of that grant to

423
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.920
<v Speaker 1>help offset the cost that they've invested in having that

424
00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:14.319
<v Speaker 1>person there doing research in the first place. It's called

425
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.920
<v Speaker 1>an indirect cost. Okay, you take a place like you

426
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.240
<v Speaker 1>and R A common indirect cost you'll see is about

427
00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:25.960
<v Speaker 1>thirty percent. So if they get a one million dollar

428
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.039
<v Speaker 1>grant for something, the university is going to take approximately

429
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.319
<v Speaker 1>three hundred thousand dollars of that grant to cover the

430
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.279
<v Speaker 1>cost of paying for that researcher and their research space

431
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.000
<v Speaker 1>and equipment and everything to be there. Right, it sounds

432
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.640
<v Speaker 1>like a lot and it is, but you know they

433
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:45.000
<v Speaker 1>still then have seven hundred thousand dollars to do what

434
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.119
<v Speaker 1>and that's they plan for that, Like they budget for

435
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.920
<v Speaker 1>We're going to apply for this grant knowing this is

436
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:50.920
<v Speaker 1>how much of that money we will get that we

437
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 1>will then spend on these things, and they write they

438
00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.319
<v Speaker 1>plan that all out, and that's called the indirect cost.

439
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Some universities have in direct costs as high as seventy percent.

440
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.680
<v Speaker 1>That does feel extreme to me, But you know, I

441
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.839
<v Speaker 1>don't know what their actual operating overhead costs are, Like

442
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:07.799
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure they're massive.

443
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, and it probably depends on the research it very much,

444
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.160
<v Speaker 2>does you know, Like it depends on the equipment that's needed.

445
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, there's a different like like we kind

446
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.559
<v Speaker 2>of talk, we come from a behavior analysis standpoint where

447
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:19.559
<v Speaker 2>it's like we need to have like maybe rat cages

448
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:21.759
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that sometimes if we're doing a rat lab,

449
00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.240
<v Speaker 2>but like we don't work in a space where we

450
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.279
<v Speaker 2>need a telescope that can see planets in other solar systems, right,

451
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:29.680
<v Speaker 2>So like that's a very different cost set.

452
00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Or like if you need a lab with a

453
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.160
<v Speaker 1>lot of chemicals, you need a ton of safety equipment

454
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 1>and protocols and emergency things. It's going to be so

455
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.160
<v Speaker 1>expensive to operate a lab for chemists then for baby analysts,

456
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.599
<v Speaker 1>and so the expense to the university is much much higher.

457
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.359
<v Speaker 1>So they're probably going to claim a higher indirect cost.

458
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.440
<v Speaker 1>So it varies I think by grant by funding source

459
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.039
<v Speaker 1>a little bit. But there's gonna be like university policy

460
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.559
<v Speaker 1>around this as well. Yeah, last year they tried to

461
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:03.640
<v Speaker 1>cap indirect costs at fifteen percent. This would murder many

462
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.599
<v Speaker 1>universities ability to fund scientists on the campus if they

463
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.799
<v Speaker 1>did that. That part failed, and they're not including that

464
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.279
<v Speaker 1>exact thing in this next round of this. What they

465
00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:17.720
<v Speaker 1>are calling on is for favoring distributing grants to institutions

466
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.240
<v Speaker 1>that have lower indirect costs, and for prohibiting money going

467
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.599
<v Speaker 1>to publication costs, which I'll come back to that a second.

468
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 1>And less such costs this is a direct quote from

469
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:31.640
<v Speaker 1>the document, and less such costs are expressly required by

470
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:34.359
<v Speaker 1>statute or approved in advanced by the federal agency on

471
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:36.839
<v Speaker 1>a case by case basis. That's another important part we

472
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.960
<v Speaker 1>need to get to. So one quick thing. These grants

473
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.200
<v Speaker 1>are largely funded by tax dollars, pretty much entirely funded

474
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.279
<v Speaker 1>by tax dollars, and so when this research happens, a

475
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:49.319
<v Speaker 1>lot of people have argued, if our tax dollars paid

476
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:52.000
<v Speaker 1>for this, this should be made publicly available. The problem

477
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.519
<v Speaker 1>is the sources that publish that research also have to

478
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.119
<v Speaker 1>pay for their costs, and so they will often not

479
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.319
<v Speaker 1>make research publicly available. And that's kind of the deal.

480
00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:04.839
<v Speaker 1>They're like, you publish your research here, we want your

481
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.839
<v Speaker 1>research here, and then people who buy subscriptions to our

482
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.240
<v Speaker 1>journal can have access to that research, or people can

483
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.000
<v Speaker 1>buy these articles directly for sometimes hundreds of dollars. Well,

484
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.839
<v Speaker 1>what a grant can do is have costs from the

485
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.640
<v Speaker 1>funding of the grant that go to pay the publication

486
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:23.359
<v Speaker 1>for that so it becomes an open access article and

487
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.599
<v Speaker 1>anybody can read it. I do think in an ideal world,

488
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.319
<v Speaker 1>tax funded research should be always publicly available. And I

489
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.359
<v Speaker 1>understand the complicated nuance of having private publishing companies who

490
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.359
<v Speaker 1>have to make sure that they can cover their overhead,

491
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:38.480
<v Speaker 1>but that's just a thing to make sure that you know,

492
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 1>is there what this would do. This is largely going

493
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 1>to punish ivy leagues and like large institutions. That's one

494
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.119
<v Speaker 1>of the effects. But that also means it's going to

495
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.839
<v Speaker 1>go to universities that have lower indirect costs. Why do

496
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.799
<v Speaker 1>they have lower indirect costs? Probably because they don't have

497
00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:57.480
<v Speaker 1>as much stuff that they that they can provide to

498
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.559
<v Speaker 1>the researchers. They don't have to pay for us, right,

499
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:01.480
<v Speaker 1>so they don't have state of the art equipments, they

500
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:04.440
<v Speaker 1>don't have cutting edge technology. They're like operating off of

501
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:07.680
<v Speaker 1>like Windows ninety five Dell PC that that takes up

502
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:09.200
<v Speaker 1>an entire closet, you.

503
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:13.359
<v Speaker 2>Know, right, and honestly, like what that does is at

504
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 2>first you might be going, well, why does research need

505
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.720
<v Speaker 2>the state of the art equipment? Because we need to

506
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:21.200
<v Speaker 2>be as current as possible with our research, and at

507
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.880
<v Speaker 2>the end of the day, like having less quality equipment

508
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.400
<v Speaker 2>or less access to equipment or any of that stuff

509
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:29.640
<v Speaker 2>is going to reduce the quality of the research at large,

510
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:31.519
<v Speaker 2>or it's going to prevent the research from happening at all,

511
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 2>which is a different problem, exactly right, exactly, So the

512
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.799
<v Speaker 2>proposal from the OMB also aims to replace the peer

513
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.400
<v Speaker 2>review process with the judgment of non expert political appointees

514
00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:45.839
<v Speaker 2>sworn to carry out the wishes of President Donald Trump.

515
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.680
<v Speaker 2>I say that sentence, and I cannot believe that it

516
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.079
<v Speaker 2>is a real sentence that I had to say out loud. Yeah,

517
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.160
<v Speaker 2>we did an episode on peer review, and we explicitly say, like,

518
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:56.400
<v Speaker 2>is it the best process that we could possibly have?

519
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely not, but it is certainly better than having non

520
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:04.160
<v Speaker 2>experts political appointees who have a particular political agenda reviewing research.

521
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.319
<v Speaker 2>That is I mean, that is Orwellian.

522
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, to put it nicely, Yeah, And that's what I

523
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:13.000
<v Speaker 1>was saying in terms of we need to come back

524
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:14.759
<v Speaker 1>to what they mean by on a case by case

525
00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.240
<v Speaker 1>basis is that they're now saying like, no longer does

526
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:22.160
<v Speaker 1>peer review matter, like at all, it doesn't matter. Essentially,

527
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.240
<v Speaker 1>what's going to happen is all of these grants get

528
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.440
<v Speaker 1>signed off by a political appointee and just as you said,

529
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.559
<v Speaker 1>their job description is do what the president tells you

530
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.279
<v Speaker 1>to do with research, right, that means they're only going

531
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:38.839
<v Speaker 1>to fund research that look looks like it carries out

532
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.200
<v Speaker 1>the agenda of the current political administration, that looks like

533
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.279
<v Speaker 1>it's going to shine that administration in a positive light,

534
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:47.880
<v Speaker 1>and that has a narrative that is in line with

535
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>what the administration is trying to push as a narrative,

536
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:55.880
<v Speaker 1>and that these political appointees who are not experts at all,

537
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.119
<v Speaker 1>Like they're explicitly not choosing experts for this role. They

538
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:05.519
<v Speaker 1>are choosing people who are politicians, very stupid politicians, maybe

539
00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:10.200
<v Speaker 1>not even politicians, but like personalities, corporate shills, people who

540
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:13.640
<v Speaker 1>have a vested interest in carrying out their agenda and

541
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 1>do not know a fucking thing about science. Yeah, those

542
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 1>the people who will be making decisions about research dollars

543
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:20.839
<v Speaker 1>and research proposals.

544
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.319
<v Speaker 2>It's a group of people who rules against conflicts of

545
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 2>interests have being written about the reason we prevent conflicts

546
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 2>of interest in research are because of people like this

547
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:33.759
<v Speaker 2>they're talking about bringing in, Yes, like, you do not

548
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.599
<v Speaker 2>want Andrew Wakefield being the responsible person for reviewing vaccine research,

549
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.599
<v Speaker 2>absolutely not God, and that's what he's doing. That's what

550
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.880
<v Speaker 2>he's doing. You do not want doctor Oz being the

551
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:48.519
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote peer reviewer for herbal vitamin supplements that treat cancer,

552
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.119
<v Speaker 2>like that he's gonna approve it because he has a

553
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>vested interest in that industry.

554
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Right exactly, these people who don't know what they're doing,

555
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.599
<v Speaker 1>and all this creates is a way for the government

556
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.079
<v Speaker 1>to have complete control over what the outcomes of scientific

557
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:07.119
<v Speaker 1>research look like. Another direct quote here, This is from

558
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.680
<v Speaker 1>somebody describing this. Her name is Elizabeth Genexi Genexy. What

559
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.480
<v Speaker 1>she says is, quote, what OMB is proposing is not

560
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.960
<v Speaker 1>a reform of grants management. It is a complete political

561
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:22.160
<v Speaker 1>control apparatus layered over every stage of the federal science

562
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.119
<v Speaker 1>funding life cycle. And this was a former NIH program

563
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 1>official who had read the rules and was providing an

564
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.240
<v Speaker 1>analysis of what this was. Because they're claiming that they're

565
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.319
<v Speaker 1>reforming grant management, that's not what they're doing. What they're

566
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:39.960
<v Speaker 1>doing is completely eliminating the structure of science that guided

567
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:45.200
<v Speaker 1>this process and replacing it with a presidential agenda driven

568
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:51.200
<v Speaker 1>apparatus that is no longer science. It is a propaganda machine.

569
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:54.519
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and that should be very concerning to everybody who

570
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.440
<v Speaker 2>hears this. Now there are other quotes. Another quote that

571
00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>came out was that a lot of grant decisions are

572
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.839
<v Speaker 2>based on the knowledge of experts in a field in

573
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.279
<v Speaker 2>a particular field, so grant decisions are reviewed by people

574
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:08.559
<v Speaker 2>in the field who make decisions about that. I just

575
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.680
<v Speaker 2>got done reviewing like seven grants from a university. Like

576
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I got to do some grant reviews. And the reason

577
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I was asked to do grant reviews is because I'm

578
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.920
<v Speaker 2>a behavior analyst reviewing behavior analytic grants. That makes sense,

579
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 2>So like I'm an expert in a field of behavior

580
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:24.599
<v Speaker 2>analysis who is doing grant reviews. Grant reviews are supposed

581
00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:27.359
<v Speaker 2>to be from the experts, not in a situation, and

582
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:29.160
<v Speaker 2>they should not be reviewed based on whether it meets

583
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:33.559
<v Speaker 2>an ideological agenda. Merit reviews are all about making sure

584
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>that the research and the grants and the proposals meet

585
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:39.839
<v Speaker 2>the rigor and standards of the science, replacing it with

586
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 2>a decision making model that is primarily politically idealized, it

587
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.240
<v Speaker 2>follows a certain ideology. It's going to result in really bad,

588
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:54.759
<v Speaker 2>really bad studies, really poorly designed studies, bad science, fake

589
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:59.079
<v Speaker 2>science being refunded, being researched, and being published as truth.

590
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 2>It's going to create a body of literature that is

591
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:07.559
<v Speaker 2>not replicable, that is not verifiable, that is wasting money

592
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.119
<v Speaker 2>and time on stuff that we already know doesn't work,

593
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Like facilitated communication, like the fact that vaccines cause autism,

594
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.319
<v Speaker 2>which they don't. We know all those things do not work.

595
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:18.759
<v Speaker 2>But this is just going to outcate money and waste

596
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:20.839
<v Speaker 2>time and resources for research. It's going to be bad

597
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.599
<v Speaker 2>science exactly.

598
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:24.880
<v Speaker 1>And the great irony of the people who are in

599
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:28.400
<v Speaker 1>charge saying that everything should be a meritocracy, that everything

600
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:32.000
<v Speaker 1>should be merit based, is they are exactly destroying a

601
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.920
<v Speaker 1>merit based system, right they say merit based, and what

602
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:39.279
<v Speaker 1>they advocate is nepotism and loyalty. Merit is not factor

603
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.799
<v Speaker 1>in whatsoever and the things that they do not at all. Yeah,

604
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:54.160
<v Speaker 1>and merit does not factor into our choice to run ads. Okay,

605
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.240
<v Speaker 1>we're back. We've been talking about this fact that one

606
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.960
<v Speaker 1>of the major changes is shifting the decision making apparatus

607
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.799
<v Speaker 1>to political appointees who are selected explicitly and expressly to

608
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.279
<v Speaker 1>carry out the agenda of the president. Senior appointees at

609
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:13.640
<v Speaker 1>federal agencies would be the ones to actually sign off

610
00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:18.039
<v Speaker 1>on the awards and would ban collaboration with foreign researchers.

611
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.359
<v Speaker 1>They would cut federal support for publication of those studies

612
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.759
<v Speaker 1>when they're done. They are explicitly not going to fund

613
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 1>anything that has certain verbiag in it that they don't like.

614
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.839
<v Speaker 1>If it says things like diversity, they would pretty much

615
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.960
<v Speaker 1>outright reject it. Says anything about equity, it would outright

616
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.640
<v Speaker 1>reject it. They made a list of words that you're

617
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:43.279
<v Speaker 1>not supposed to use, including women and women. Why you're

618
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:45.960
<v Speaker 1>just not supposed to say those words. You are limited

619
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.400
<v Speaker 1>in whether or not you can say anything about race whatsoever.

620
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:51.319
<v Speaker 1>And they're only going to allow it if it conveys

621
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.480
<v Speaker 1>the narrative that they want to tell. Like you might

622
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Speaker 1>start seeing a bunch of research that says, oh, racism

623
00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:57.680
<v Speaker 1>isn't real and never was real, and that's not even

624
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:00.119
<v Speaker 1>a thing, and like that would be something that they

625
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.680
<v Speaker 1>would okay to be published because that's in line with

626
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the narrative they're trying to spin.

627
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you would hope, you know, I was thinking

628
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.199
<v Speaker 2>about this, and you know, you would hope that scientists

629
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:14.400
<v Speaker 2>with integrity would never publish research that was so harmful.

630
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:17.960
<v Speaker 2>But then you have people like Jordan Peterson who would

631
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.719
<v Speaker 2>publish stuff like this, yeah, and is not a reputable

632
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.119
<v Speaker 2>scientist and walks around pretending to be a scientist. And

633
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>that's who these grants are going to go to. Yes,

634
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:26.760
<v Speaker 2>is these grants are going to go to people like

635
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Jordan Peterson and doctor Oz.

636
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, psychopaths who who have an agenda and don't know

637
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:32.280
<v Speaker 1>what they're doing.

638
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. The other important part of this regulation that

639
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:39.039
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about is that over the last several years,

640
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.639
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump has put out some executive orders that are

641
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.840
<v Speaker 2>pretty just awful and dumb and just absolutely fit the

642
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Project twenty twenty five agenda. This proposal would actually give

643
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.280
<v Speaker 2>legal weight to some of those executive orders, because something

644
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.159
<v Speaker 2>that people don't talk about enough is that a lot

645
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.400
<v Speaker 2>of his executive orders are being shut down because they're

646
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.199
<v Speaker 2>not legal. Right, So, like an executive order doesn't mean

647
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.639
<v Speaker 2>that it immediately applies. It means that it applies for

648
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.280
<v Speaker 2>a period of time until it gets challenged in court

649
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.360
<v Speaker 2>and then somebody goes, oh, by the way, you can't

650
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:08.239
<v Speaker 2>call it the Trump Kennedy Center because you don't have

651
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>that executive authority, you see, an idiot. Right. Courts are

652
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:13.639
<v Speaker 2>doing that a lot more than people realize. So Donald

653
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Trump is losing time after time in courts. But if

654
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.880
<v Speaker 2>this proposal, this regulation, this proposed regulation is accepted and

655
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.039
<v Speaker 2>is codified and goes in the law as promulgated or

656
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.400
<v Speaker 2>whatever terms you want to use. It gives weight to

657
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the executive orders that he put out

658
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.360
<v Speaker 2>last year that banned research on diversity, equity, and inclusivity. Right,

659
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.159
<v Speaker 2>So going back to what you were just saying, you

660
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.119
<v Speaker 2>can't say those words, and now there's a legal precedent

661
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.679
<v Speaker 2>to back that up. If this proposed regulation goes through,

662
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.639
<v Speaker 2>it provides tighter oversight by political appointees, not peer reviewers,

663
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:47.000
<v Speaker 2>not researchers, political appointees, and they will actually prevent research

664
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.000
<v Speaker 2>agencies from this is a direct quote from quote promoting

665
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.559
<v Speaker 2>a woke policy agenda that did not reflect the values

666
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.039
<v Speaker 2>of the vast majority of the American public end quote.

667
00:35:55.960 --> 00:36:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Get about that is so it's so ridicult, it's so absurd,

668
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:03.840
<v Speaker 2>But this is what they're putting into law or trying to.

669
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:09.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that's essentially. I think the thing to really

670
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.760
<v Speaker 1>understand about this is the sort of major aspects of this,

671
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.119
<v Speaker 1>and there's a lot. There's a lot in this proposal.

672
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 1>There's one more thing that I want to address, because

673
00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:22.599
<v Speaker 1>we've mentioned this indirect cost cap that they sort of

674
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.519
<v Speaker 1>have potentially said that like we're going to make sure

675
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.719
<v Speaker 1>this goes to universities with lower and direct costs, and

676
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 1>some people scientists are kind of like, oh, that could

677
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.800
<v Speaker 1>actually be a good thing. And the thing is, like,

678
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.239
<v Speaker 1>as you said, as we've mentioned, the grant system I

679
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.559
<v Speaker 1>think is not perfect. I do think there are ways

680
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.719
<v Speaker 1>that it could be improved to ensure that the way

681
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:48.119
<v Speaker 1>money is spent makes sense. I do think that grant writers, generally,

682
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:52.079
<v Speaker 1>the ones that I have met at least, are very responsible,

683
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>very thoughtful, intelligent people who are doing their best to

684
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 1>use those funds in a very responsible way right And

685
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:02.000
<v Speaker 1>where things go wrong it is because of other things

686
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.360
<v Speaker 1>that get in the way of that. And I understand

687
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:12.480
<v Speaker 1>the need to have like some consideration around percentages on this,

688
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.079
<v Speaker 1>and that it's possible there are some universities who abuse

689
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:18.119
<v Speaker 1>that to some extent. Some scientists are also aware of

690
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:21.400
<v Speaker 1>the fact that, like, it does feel icky sometimes to

691
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:24.599
<v Speaker 1>like get a super large grant and have almost all

692
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:26.679
<v Speaker 1>of that grant go to the university and then you're

693
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:29.199
<v Speaker 1>left with very little to actually do your research. And

694
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:30.559
<v Speaker 1>so they could be seen that and be like, well,

695
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.559
<v Speaker 1>that could be a good thing. Don't let the silver

696
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:40.000
<v Speaker 1>lining of this undercut the massive significance of us throwing

697
00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:43.199
<v Speaker 1>away science and just digging a shallow grave for it

698
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and throwing it in, right, because like this proposal would

699
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:54.280
<v Speaker 1>significantly disrupt any scientific research, Like there would be little

700
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.559
<v Speaker 1>and what little existed would suck. It would be so

701
00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 1>it would be useless. They would be ignored by the

702
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.079
<v Speaker 1>rest of the world. Right So, and would be easily disprovable.

703
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Although you wouldn't be able to do that research in

704
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.079
<v Speaker 1>the United States. I think understanding that just because there's

705
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:10.239
<v Speaker 1>one thing in here that might kind of help make

706
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 1>sense a little bit, it's not worth it. It's like

707
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:18.039
<v Speaker 1>throwing a cherry into a pile of diarrhea. I'm like,

708
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:19.599
<v Speaker 1>just because there's a cherry, and it doesn't mean I'm

709
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 1>gonna eat that pile of diarrhea. Like it's still a

710
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.079
<v Speaker 1>pile of diarrhea. Yeah, it also happens to have a

711
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:24.599
<v Speaker 1>cherry in it.

712
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. This is a dark ages indicator. Yeah, this type

713
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>of rhetoric, this type of belief around like dismantling systems

714
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:33.800
<v Speaker 2>of science. It's a dark age is indicator, like we

715
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:35.599
<v Speaker 2>are well on our way if we're not already like

716
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>well in it.

717
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is kind of where we're going. So there

718
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.920
<v Speaker 1>is something I think that I want to get into

719
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.599
<v Speaker 1>really quick just understanding a little bit about government structure

720
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:48.199
<v Speaker 1>and what that all means, because we sort of alluded

721
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.199
<v Speaker 1>to this before. I'm going to describe a type of

722
00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:53.159
<v Speaker 1>government and see if you can figure out which one

723
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.320
<v Speaker 1>it is. This is a government that is controlled by

724
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.599
<v Speaker 1>a single party, with state controlled command economy and the

725
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:02.480
<v Speaker 1>suppression of political dis Individual freedoms are limited, and the

726
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:06.360
<v Speaker 1>government controls things like manufacturing and production by having ownership

727
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:11.039
<v Speaker 1>in those processes those types of entities. And the government

728
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 1>also controls the flow of information in the narrative. They

729
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:17.360
<v Speaker 1>suppress any discussion in the news and research, et cetera.

730
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:21.119
<v Speaker 1>And they criticize and silence critics, stripping them of funding,

731
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 1>imprisoning them, deporting them if they can. That's a kind

732
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 1>of government that exists. What kind of government is that?

733
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:33.239
<v Speaker 2>Hmmmm, good question. Is it one where the leader goes

734
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:34.239
<v Speaker 2>by big brother?

735
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:37.079
<v Speaker 1>That is a form that this can take.

736
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:41.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean, if this sounds like authoritarianism, you're right.

737
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:44.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if this sounds like communism, you're also right.

738
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:46.440
<v Speaker 2>In practice, these forms of government are basically the same.

739
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Our government is turning into this. Historically, the government has

740
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.159
<v Speaker 2>influenced the private sector through policy, regulation, subsidies, and bailouts.

741
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:57.000
<v Speaker 2>But now the government has an eight point nine billion

742
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.519
<v Speaker 2>dollar stake in Intel, a fifteen percent stake in Navidia,

743
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a four hundred million dollar stake in a rare earth

744
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.320
<v Speaker 2>mining company, and government board representatives in Nippon Steel. This

745
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:13.320
<v Speaker 2>is communism. This is authoritarianism headed by a cognitively impaired,

746
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:17.239
<v Speaker 2>murderous megalomaniac. We are, for lack of a better term,

747
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 2>because of Trump, and definitely because of the people who

748
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.480
<v Speaker 2>want him empower and who are using him. I mean,

749
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:25.480
<v Speaker 2>you could make the argument that he is a monster

750
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:28.199
<v Speaker 2>in his own right, and he absolutely is, but there

751
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.119
<v Speaker 2>are also monsters who may be worse, who are hiding

752
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:33.719
<v Speaker 2>in the shadows, who are absolutely using him for their

753
00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:36.360
<v Speaker 2>own gain as well. So like, and they're all people

754
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:40.639
<v Speaker 2>who hate science, especially science that helps people. All they

755
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:44.760
<v Speaker 2>care about is money, power and authority, and under this administration,

756
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:45.480
<v Speaker 2>that's what they're getting.

757
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, for the people on the right who

758
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.199
<v Speaker 1>say they hate communism, this is communism. Our government now

759
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:56.079
<v Speaker 1>owns private equity in private companies and therefore has some

760
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.639
<v Speaker 1>controlling interest in what they do. That's what communism does

761
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 1>the government is appointing political appointees to control the flow

762
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:07.239
<v Speaker 1>of information. That is both authoritarianism and communism. They are

763
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:13.159
<v Speaker 1>suppressing individual freedoms and suppressing discussion and limiting dissent, criticizing

764
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:18.400
<v Speaker 1>and silencing critics, disappearing people. That is authoritarianism and communism.

765
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.840
<v Speaker 1>More authoritarism than the communism, but they both do it.

766
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Like that's where we're currently at, Like is we are

767
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:26.960
<v Speaker 1>headed in that way? And I kind of want to

768
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 1>end with like, this is what happens when Republicans get control.

769
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:32.360
<v Speaker 1>There's only been a handful of times in the history

770
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:34.119
<v Speaker 1>of this country. I was looking at like sort of

771
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:39.159
<v Speaker 1>a political map when the Republicans had control over all

772
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:42.199
<v Speaker 1>three bodies of government, the executive branch, the legislative branch,

773
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:44.880
<v Speaker 1>and the judicial branch. The cut Republicans controlled the House

774
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.599
<v Speaker 1>of Representatives, they control the Senate, they control the Presidency,

775
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 1>they control the Supreme Court. They have complete control. And

776
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.280
<v Speaker 1>this is what happens when they get in control. They

777
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.280
<v Speaker 1>turn the government into a dictatorship, some revolting hybrid of

778
00:41:55.360 --> 00:42:00.199
<v Speaker 1>fascism and communism, and so so so many scientists are

779
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.400
<v Speaker 1>going to lose their jobs should this policy come to

780
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 1>pass because they will no longer be able to operate

781
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and do the work that they've been doing unless they

782
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 1>are doing the bidding of the president. And that should

783
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:21.239
<v Speaker 1>be extremely alarming, like upsettingly extremely alarming. H this should

784
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:23.880
<v Speaker 1>just not be a thing that could possibly happen here.

785
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's absurd. It's like watching the movie Idiocracy. Yeah,

786
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.960
<v Speaker 2>but like at the very least, like this is so

787
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.639
<v Speaker 2>much worse because it's happening in real time and it's

788
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.760
<v Speaker 2>you just just the monsters are exposed over and over

789
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:42.119
<v Speaker 2>and over again. It's just it's really unbelievable.

790
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Ads are like watching Idiocracy. Okay, we're back, we've been

791
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:59.199
<v Speaker 1>I guess, concluding our sort of thoughts here on this

792
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 1>new proposal on what's going on here. Yeah, I cannot

793
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.679
<v Speaker 1>being believed something like this could possibly happen in this

794
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.199
<v Speaker 1>country in my lifetime. I can't believe it that we're here.

795
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:15.199
<v Speaker 1>I can't believe that some whole, useless, pathetic for brains,

796
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:18.719
<v Speaker 1>derelic waste of life have risen to the point where

797
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:21.599
<v Speaker 1>they could successfully pull this off. Just reflecting on this,

798
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.840
<v Speaker 1>looking over this, like, I can't believe that the American

799
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:29.719
<v Speaker 1>people are so fkingullible and uninformed and misinformed that we

800
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:35.000
<v Speaker 1>would not only let this happen, but actively fking choose it. Yeah,

801
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.079
<v Speaker 1>that's where we're looking at right now.

802
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's infuriating.

803
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:42.280
<v Speaker 1>It is unbelievable that we could be at this place

804
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.119
<v Speaker 1>right now. Holy you guys, what the is going on?

805
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

806
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I want to be careful to understand that, like most

807
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:55.280
<v Speaker 1>people do not agree with this, but we got enough

808
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:57.440
<v Speaker 1>people to agree with this to get us here in

809
00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.760
<v Speaker 1>the first place. And to those people, this is on

810
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:01.559
<v Speaker 1>your shoulders.

811
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:04.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at this point in time, we've

812
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:06.599
<v Speaker 2>already lost our status in the world stage as a

813
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:10.400
<v Speaker 2>research powerhouse or as a place where we could be

814
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.000
<v Speaker 2>a beacon of some kind of knowledge in the world.

815
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:16.639
<v Speaker 2>We've lost that and are likely to only fall further

816
00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:20.119
<v Speaker 2>due to the incomprehensibly stupid decisions of this administration. And

817
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 2>I say stupid, but I think there's also like stupid

818
00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:28.400
<v Speaker 2>and intentionally violent or intentionally anti science decisions that this

819
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:29.519
<v Speaker 2>administration is making.

820
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:35.960
<v Speaker 1>It's like corruption and self serving and counterproductive. Like there

821
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:39.519
<v Speaker 1>are smart people in this administration. They're doing horrible things.

822
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.880
<v Speaker 1>And I call, you know, I call it stupid because

823
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:46.480
<v Speaker 1>I think it's shortsighted, but like they are, actually they

824
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:49.159
<v Speaker 1>know what they're doing. They're just choosing to end the world.

825
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, And if this goes through, this country will

826
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.679
<v Speaker 2>be plunged into a steep decline into the dark ages.

827
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:57.000
<v Speaker 2>We will be joining the ranks of North Korea and Afghanistan,

828
00:44:57.239 --> 00:45:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a state of terror ruled by oppressive religious fanatics where

829
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:03.320
<v Speaker 2>no one has any freedom. The true goal of the

830
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Republican Party, which it has always been, Yeah, it has

831
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.719
<v Speaker 2>always been that, and they have always told.

832
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Us so, politics aside, because, as we sort of said, scientists,

833
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:18.119
<v Speaker 1>science generally speaking is while it is made up of

834
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:21.360
<v Speaker 1>individuals who often have a political agenda, the overall or

835
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:24.480
<v Speaker 1>the overarching direction and flow of science is not political.

836
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes scientific findings are more supportive of policies that a

837
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.480
<v Speaker 1>conservative would prefer. Sometimes they are more supportive of findings

838
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:39.119
<v Speaker 1>that a liberal would prefer. And it's just going to

839
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.960
<v Speaker 1>report on whatever it finds. And it can't do that

840
00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:44.800
<v Speaker 1>if it's being told what to report by the people

841
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.239
<v Speaker 1>who are holding the purse strings now, right, So this

842
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:52.480
<v Speaker 1>would effectively kill science in the United States. Fortunately, other

843
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:57.159
<v Speaker 1>countries have stepped up to really increase their funding and

844
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:01.679
<v Speaker 1>contributions to science. France and Spain have been pushing a

845
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:05.480
<v Speaker 1>lot to fund a lot of scientific research, and a

846
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.559
<v Speaker 1>lot of people are leaving the country who are scientists

847
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.199
<v Speaker 1>to go to those countries because they're very friendly to

848
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:12.800
<v Speaker 1>people who are experts and know what they're doing. So

849
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.679
<v Speaker 1>they'll probably become more or less the powerhouses of scientific

850
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:19.480
<v Speaker 1>research moving forward. And good for them, I guess, But

851
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.079
<v Speaker 1>really for us in the United States.

852
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, real bad. It's a real bad situation now.

853
00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 1>Most of the time when there are proposals of this nature,

854
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.880
<v Speaker 1>there's a pretty long window of time that people can

855
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:35.880
<v Speaker 1>weigh in and share their thoughts. This is a public thing,

856
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:38.920
<v Speaker 1>so you listener can do this if you'd like. The

857
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:41.840
<v Speaker 1>President of the Council and Government Relations states that this

858
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.760
<v Speaker 1>is an unusually short period of time for such wide changes.

859
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:48.000
<v Speaker 1>But we have forty five days from when this was announced,

860
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:52.079
<v Speaker 1>which was I think May twenty ninth or twenty eighth,

861
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.079
<v Speaker 1>something like that, that this was announced, forty five days

862
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:58.159
<v Speaker 1>to comment on these proposed regulations, and at the time

863
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.599
<v Speaker 1>that you hear this will have very very little. That

864
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.599
<v Speaker 1>means that the final day for public comment is July thirteenth,

865
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:09.280
<v Speaker 1>So do not wait, if you would like to share

866
00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:11.920
<v Speaker 1>your thoughts on this, I'm putting the links in here.

867
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:15.320
<v Speaker 1>You can go to a portal. It's at Federal Register

868
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:18.559
<v Speaker 1>dot gov. But if you just google, I don't remember

869
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 1>what I googled, but if you google something about this,

870
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.400
<v Speaker 1>like the OMB grant proposal thing in public comment, you

871
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:26.199
<v Speaker 1>should be able to find it in some capacity. If

872
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.800
<v Speaker 1>you just google any of those words. Many of the

873
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:30.559
<v Speaker 1>news sites have links to the specific portal you can

874
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:33.400
<v Speaker 1>go and leave comments. I know I will be doing this. Yeah,

875
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:35.559
<v Speaker 1>my hope that Shane will be doing this. I expect

876
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.800
<v Speaker 1>that many of our listeners can and also would have

877
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:41.519
<v Speaker 1>an interest in doing this. Tell them to GoF with

878
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:44.800
<v Speaker 1>this nonsense. Yeah, obviously do it and not those words.

879
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.679
<v Speaker 1>They need to hear this message, but like they need

880
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:49.960
<v Speaker 1>to hear that this is not something we're okay with.

881
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.599
<v Speaker 1>Not that that's going to stop them, it probably won't,

882
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:54.679
<v Speaker 1>but they need to hear it as much as possible.

883
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, Okay.

884
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.320
<v Speaker 1>I think that is what we have to say about

885
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:03.679
<v Speaker 1>this god awful nightmare that we live in.

886
00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I'm not sure what else I say right now,

887
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:11.519
<v Speaker 2>other than please speak up like it can be hard.

888
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:13.159
<v Speaker 2>It can be scary, but please speak up.

889
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:17.559
<v Speaker 1>It makes a difference, Yes, it does, and share this episode.

890
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:20.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I know I say that selfishly to like

891
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:22.400
<v Speaker 1>get us out there, but like this is something people

892
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.320
<v Speaker 1>need to hear as well. We are reporting on exactly

893
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:27.800
<v Speaker 1>what is being said on here, and yes we icinged

894
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.840
<v Speaker 1>on a lot of our opinions about it, but the

895
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 1>point is, like we're not making this up. This is

896
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 1>what is probably gonna happen, and it represents a dangerous,

897
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:42.920
<v Speaker 1>dangerous move in this country that will royally guss for

898
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:47.679
<v Speaker 1>decades to come. Yes, absolutely, Okay, great, well, thanks to

899
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:49.440
<v Speaker 1>all those who got us here. If you would like

900
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.320
<v Speaker 1>to tell us your thoughts on this, you can email

901
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:56.039
<v Speaker 1>us directly infowwdwwdpodcast dot com. We look forward to hearing from.

902
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.599
<v Speaker 1>You can also leave us a message on the social

903
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:01.599
<v Speaker 1>media platforms. That is great too. If you are joining

904
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:03.519
<v Speaker 1>us for the first time. You may not know this,

905
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:05.800
<v Speaker 1>but at the end of our discussions we do some

906
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.679
<v Speaker 1>fun recommendations that are unrelated to our topic at hand.

907
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:11.079
<v Speaker 1>It's it's a good time. We just you know, we

908
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.639
<v Speaker 1>enjoy it. I think we think people enjoy it. It's cool,

909
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:16.440
<v Speaker 1>it's fun. First, I'd like to say that. As I mentioned,

910
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:17.920
<v Speaker 1>if you'd like to support us, you can join us

911
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:19.960
<v Speaker 1>on Patreon. If you do, you get poonus content, add

912
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Speaker 1>free episodes, early episodes, and I will read your name

913
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:25.920
<v Speaker 1>in the list of supporters who help us make this

914
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.320
<v Speaker 1>show a show. So thank you so much too, Mike,

915
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:33.199
<v Speaker 1>m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara,

916
00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:36.000
<v Speaker 1>and Charlie for all that you have done for helping

917
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.440
<v Speaker 1>us stick around and be a podcast. You are the best.

918
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:41.559
<v Speaker 2>You are truly the loveliest.

919
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Indeed, you can also support us by leaving us a

920
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.039
<v Speaker 1>rating and a review. Go click those five stars or

921
00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:49.239
<v Speaker 1>ten stars, however many stars it'll let you click. It

922
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:51.599
<v Speaker 1>just makes you feel good, It helps us, it helps

923
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.360
<v Speaker 1>the algorithm. It's all good stuff. That's just one way

924
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:57.119
<v Speaker 1>you can support us non financially. You can also tell

925
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:58.960
<v Speaker 1>a friend to make sure you subscribe to catch all

926
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:02.920
<v Speaker 1>future episodes, and then like or whatever share this. Go subscribe,

927
00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Go tell friends. Okay. Also, thank you to my team

928
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.079
<v Speaker 1>of people for helping me make this podcast exist. Writing

929
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.000
<v Speaker 1>in fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for

930
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:13.360
<v Speaker 1>recording with me today. Shane, Hey, thanks for having me

931
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:17.000
<v Speaker 1>social media Coordinator z Emma Wilson, and our audio technician

932
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:22.039
<v Speaker 1>engineer God Emperor Executive is Justin who is so good

933
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.320
<v Speaker 1>at what he does and wonderful. I would want him

934
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:29.360
<v Speaker 1>on my peer review committee definitely, And of course thank

935
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:31.559
<v Speaker 1>you all for listening. But I think that gets us

936
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:34.360
<v Speaker 1>to the point where we can get to our recommendations.

937
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:45.159
<v Speaker 2>I love it recommendations. I'm gonna recommend a movie that

938
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.760
<v Speaker 2>just came out, and that movie is called Star Wars,

939
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:52.159
<v Speaker 2>The Mandalorian and Grow Goo. So if you are a

940
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.599
<v Speaker 2>fan of the Mandalorian show, it's just a great Indiana

941
00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Jones cowboy western adventure type of Star Wars story like.

942
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.159
<v Speaker 2>It plays a lot of like you know, the good,

943
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:05.159
<v Speaker 2>the bad, and the ugly. It plays a lot like

944
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:07.960
<v Speaker 2>some of those old spaghetti westerns that people talk about,

945
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:10.719
<v Speaker 2>so this is no different. It adds to the lore

946
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I think of Star Wars a little bit where you've

947
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:14.920
<v Speaker 2>got job of the Huts family that's involved in this

948
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:19.000
<v Speaker 2>and they're awful. And it's got Pedro Pascal, who is great.

949
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:21.519
<v Speaker 2>It's got Sigourney Weaver in it. She's really good as

950
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.960
<v Speaker 2>a New Republic commander, which is really cool.

951
00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Cool.

952
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, it's just fun. It's what's lovely about

953
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:30.400
<v Speaker 2>it is it's a Star Wars story that's not about

954
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.199
<v Speaker 2>the Skywalker family, which I think we need some of

955
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 2>those sometimes yes to kind of expand on that world.

956
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:39.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think that it's just a great adventure story.

957
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Like it's a fun, just kind of Indiana Jones style

958
00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:47.079
<v Speaker 2>adventure story in Star Wars. So it's worth checking out.

959
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:47.960
<v Speaker 2>It's a good time.

960
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:50.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm very interested in seeing this. Yeah, I hope to

961
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.159
<v Speaker 1>make it to the theater before it's gone for six

962
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:56.480
<v Speaker 1>months and then finally makes it to streaming by December.

963
00:51:56.639 --> 00:52:00.519
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, I definitely want to see this. Very good.

964
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm recommending a TV show. I've recommended it before, but

965
00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.639
<v Speaker 1>they just wrapped season five, so I'm recommending the TV

966
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:13.519
<v Speaker 1>show Ghosts. This is the American version of a UK show,

967
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.639
<v Speaker 1>as Americans like to do sometimes. The premise, if you

968
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:20.320
<v Speaker 1>don't know, is somebody who hits their head, dies temporarily

969
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and then wakes up and they can see ghosts and

970
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.880
<v Speaker 1>they realize that the house that they've inherited, this large mansion,

971
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:29.760
<v Speaker 1>is just filled with ghosts and high jinks ensue. And

972
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:33.320
<v Speaker 1>so the season's been great it's such a great show.

973
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:35.320
<v Speaker 1>It's honestly one of my favorite shows that's on right now.

974
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 1>It's really funny. It's set up like a sitcom, but

975
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:40.599
<v Speaker 1>it also has a lot of heart at times. I

976
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:43.320
<v Speaker 1>think the writing is just really really well done. I

977
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 1>love all the actors on it, so really fun show.

978
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:50.400
<v Speaker 1>I know it's a CBS show, so it's available on Peacock,

979
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:52.920
<v Speaker 1>I believe. Okay, maybe on Amazon. I think I think

980
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:55.039
<v Speaker 1>those are places you can find it. It's around, so

981
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:56.280
<v Speaker 1>I recommend it.

982
00:52:56.599 --> 00:52:57.519
<v Speaker 2>I love it, all right.

983
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.599
<v Speaker 1>That is Ghosts, the TV show and and the movie

984
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:05.559
<v Speaker 1>the new movie Star Wars, the Mandalorian, and grogu our recommendations.

985
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:07.840
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I think that's what I have to say

986
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:10.280
<v Speaker 1>about this. I think I'm gonna go fume some more

987
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:14.320
<v Speaker 1>about the horrors of our derelict future. Anything you'd like

988
00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.400
<v Speaker 1>to add or that I forgot before we wrap up?

989
00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:20.320
<v Speaker 2>No, I think I think that covers it great.

990
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.880
<v Speaker 1>All right, This is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out.

991
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:24.840
<v Speaker 2>See ya.

992
00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:27.840
<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.

993
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:31.280
<v Speaker 2>You can learn more about this and other episodes by.

994
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Going to WWD WWD podcast dot com.

995
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening and We hope you have an awesome day.