WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:08.439 With Laurent's segle And from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:10.800 This is redefining energy. 3 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:15.599 Today, on redefining energy, we're going to talk about energy 4 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:20.480 security and the case of Estoniap and how we can 5 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.480 reach energy security through one bots. 6 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.480 Yeah, and larn I think that what's interesting is to 7 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:29.399 talk about this whole Balkans area because what we don't 8 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.000 realize is the extent of the growth you're seeing in 9 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.960 these regions and renewables. I think I just looked at 10 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:39.399 the statistics. Reason is, if you went back twenty twenty two, 11 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:43.359 you know, the Balkans region had about eighteen nineteen gigawatts 12 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:46.960 of renewable solar and wind and today you're at twenty 13 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.640 four twenty five kigawatts. And that's that's just in the 14 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:52.880 last two years. And the reason this is happening is 15 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.320 ultimately is because the economics of it really make a 16 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.399 lot of sense, whether that's in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania. Simple 17 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:03.119 as that low couse electricity, that's what you're getting by 18 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.359 putnent solar, wind and in your energy mix. 19 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:08.200 Well, and look, we need to talk about Russia because 20 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.719 they're on the front line. And I remember in two 21 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.920 or nine, I went to Sofia, the capital of Bulgaria 22 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:19.680 during the winter. Looks a super long story, so anyway, 23 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.319 so I went there. I met the Minister of Energy 24 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.879 and it was part of the three weeks where Russia 25 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.480 had cut the gas for Bulgaria. It was minus fifteen 26 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:35.280 c outside. They were playing hardball already because of guess what, 27 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.280 a financial disagreement with Ukraine. So that was two or 28 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:42.200 nine and those poor Bulgarians that to cut the trees 29 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:45.840 in their equivalent of Hyde Park or Central Park just 30 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:50.959 not to freeze to death. So Russia using gas as 31 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.680 a weapon, that is not new. This is their nature. 32 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.079 So I understand that people start to learn their lessons. 33 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:03.799 And now, even if Russian guys was dut cheap energy, 34 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:08.599 security is more important than affordability. So we brought in 35 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:13.439 one of the greatest developer of nables in the region. 36 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.439 And this is one of the co founders of CWP, 37 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.520 a guy called Demeter n Chef. I've known him many 38 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:24.800 many years and they have been incredibly active across the 39 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:29.360 region and developing wind and solar very very very knowledgeable 40 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:31.919 and great to have him on the show to actually 41 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.599 have a talk about this about what's going on in 42 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.240 Eastern Europe and in the Balkans, particularly in and around energy. 43 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:40.599 Let's bring Dimitar on the show. 44 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:43.479 Dibitar, it's really great to have you on the show. 45 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:45.919 Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. 46 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.360 Lit Maybe just kick off because it's next at the 47 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:50.960 end of the day. You've got huge expertise in the 48 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.280 energy space in Eastern Europe. I'd be really great just 49 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.719 to get a lie of the land overview of what's 50 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.560 going on in energy across East Europe. 51 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.000 Eastern Europe is facing some of the same challenges and 52 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.479 opportunities that the rest of Europe is facing. The region 53 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:12.319 is still dominated by fossil fuels, especially coal and important 54 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.240 natural gas. It used to be dependent on Russian pipe gas. 55 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:21.039 Now it's more and more dependent on imported LNG. It's 56 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:25.680 gradually shifting towards renewables. The markets of Eastern Europe and 57 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.080 Southeast Europe are getting better integrated into the European market. 58 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.400 The markets are getting coupled. Grit modernization is ongoing, so 59 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:39.560 you've got a lot of EO funds supporting interconnection, digitalization 60 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.400 and preparing these markets for the energy transition. The transition 61 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:48.879 to a renewables dominated grid. At the same time, the 62 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.000 region is quite energy and efficient, so you do have 63 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:56.000 a big scope for energy efficiency in Eastern Europe, and 64 00:03:56.439 --> 00:04:00.520 you do have a scope for modernization in gen right, 65 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.560 for building a more modern energy system. There is a 66 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:09.039 growing renew bantagy sector. Solar is booming in Southeast Europe. 67 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.439 You have a lot of potential for wind in certain markets, 68 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.120 and this is important in the world of European context. 69 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.879 The hydro sector it is quite robust, but with limited 70 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.800 growth potential because all the sites have been built up. 71 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.000 And at the same time you have challenges because infrastructure 72 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:34.399 is aging, You've got regulator uncertainty, you've got Russian interference, 73 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.360 so Russian does not want the region to be energy 74 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.279 independent and they're acting upon that and they're trying to 75 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:47.680 sabotage efforts for diversification. So it's a picture of challenges 76 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:48.680 and opportunities. 77 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:55.160 And of course if you look at Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovenia, 78 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:58.079 I hope I don't forget any of them. You still 79 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:01.079 have those also yet nuclear plants. 80 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.199 Yeah, you do have quite a bit of nuclear Some 81 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:08.079 of the countries areluding new projects. But obviously we all 82 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.279 know that that takes a very long time and it's expensive, 83 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.079 so it's not a solution for the George to Median 84 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:15.240 term problems. 85 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.680 Jim, can I just just take a step back just 86 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:22.079 to talk about to explain what's happened since the Ukrainian crisis, 87 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.879 because obviously we've had the Europraeinian crisis had a very 88 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.720 big impact in Western Europe in the sense that certainly 89 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.040 we've had to get LNG in and that's impacted industry, 90 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:36.240 it's impacted retail prices. What's happened in Eastern Europe over this. 91 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.720 Period, well, other than making us all very scared and 92 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.600 trying to avoid this spilling over the rest of the 93 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:47.000 ear But from an energy point of view, Ukraine before 94 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.639 the war has about fifty six gigaottes of electricity generation 95 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:55.160 past it currently has about twelve operating, so it's gone 96 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.079 from fifty six gigaottes of generation to twelve. It's gone 97 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:02.560 from an export to a big importer. They don't have 98 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:07.360 enough electricity even for they're now severely reduced industrial base, 99 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.560 so they're sucking power from the region. And Southeast Europe 100 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.759 was short to begin with, so the region now has 101 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:19.319 Europe's highest electricity prices, and this is why we think 102 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.279 it's such a good place to invest in new generation 103 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.839 and new renewable capacity. And we are of course active 104 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:28.759 in Ukraine. We are active in all of the big 105 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:33.839 countries in Southeast Europe, but we have big plans for Ukraine. 106 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.800 We're trying to do as much as we can now 107 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:39.079 in terms of developing projects. We have a five gigabat 108 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.839 pipeline in Ukraine and it's not easy to get stuff done, 109 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.560 but you know, we're trying to do as much as 110 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:47.600 we can so that we can hit the ground running 111 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.240 when the war's over and Ukraine has to rebuild it 112 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:52.639 our generation sector. 113 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.560 If I look at the region, Greece has in the 114 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.920 past five years done a great development of what they 115 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.079 used to import now they export, and of course there's 116 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.000 the old balancing going on. Do you think it's a 117 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.279 blueprint for what can be done in other countries. 118 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:14.000 Yeah, Greece in the last few years is a blueprint, 119 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.480 not just in the energy sector, but broadly speaking. They've 120 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:21.879 had a pretty sensible government and in the energy sector 121 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:25.720 in particular, yes, they have been very successful and they're 122 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.879 continuing to build more renewables, more storage, they're attracting data 123 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.120 centers now, so yeah, I would say Greece is a 124 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:35.959 good blueprint for the rest of the region. 125 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:40.120 And so you talked about price. If I want to 126 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.639 know about prices in Europe, I go to the ex 127 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.519 in Germany. Do you have regional markets? How are they 128 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.319 connected and or correlated with the price formation you would 129 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:52.399 see further west. 130 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.639 Yeah, you do have regional markets, and most of the 131 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.800 Yew countries in the region, and actually most of the 132 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.800 countries in the region are either coupled or about to 133 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.319 be coupled to the broader European market. So Europe is 134 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.120 very well interconnected. The region itself is also very well 135 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.319 interconnected to the rest of Europe, so you can trade 136 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:18.160 power pretty freely from Southeast Europe to the rest of Europe. 137 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.839 And maybe just to take a step back and kind 138 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:25.680 of describe the situation from a broader perspective, the European 139 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.360 power market is mostly driven by weather because it's fifty 140 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.000 percent renewals these days, so you know, when the wind 141 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.480 blows and when the sun is shining, you've got low 142 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:39.320 prices and vice versa. Southeast Europe is generally short power, 143 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.919 so the average power price is higher than the rest 144 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:47.799 of Europe. The region is probably the last bastion of 145 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.200 coal in Europe, so you have quite a lot of 146 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.720 lignite that's expensive to run, it's carbon intense if it's polluting, 147 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:57.519 and at the same time you still have a lot 148 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:03.039 of very good sites for grit capacity for building out renewables. 149 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.759 So the region is a good opportunity both from an 150 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:10.519 investment point of view, but in the broader European context. 151 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:14.519 Europe as we know is energy poor. It imports fifty 152 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.360 five percent of its primary energy. That comes at the 153 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.679 cost of five six hundred billion a year, so it's 154 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.840 a drag on the economy. It's also putting us in 155 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.559 a position of four independents, which you don't want to 156 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:27.600 be in that position these days. And the only solution 157 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.840 to this problem at scale is to build out renewables. 158 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:34.120 Every local electron that you produce off sets at the 159 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.759 margin and imported hydrocarbon. The issue is that parts of 160 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.080 Europe have reached a point that I call commercial saturation. 161 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.919 If you look at Germany last year, five percent of 162 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.559 the time you had negative prices. Ten percent of the 163 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.440 time prices were very close to zero. In Spain that 164 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.960 was closed to twenty percent of the time. The UK 165 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:57.879 paid wind farm one point five billion pounds last year 166 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:02.120 not to produce because they could evacuate the power. So 167 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:06.360 in this context, the cheapest way to decarbonize Europe and 168 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:10.960 transition is grid to locally produced electricity is to build 169 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:14.840 out as many different weather zones in Europe and connect them, 170 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:18.000 and Southeast Europe East Europe in general is a big 171 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.320 opportunity because you do have the grid, you do have 172 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.320 the sites, and you have a different weather profile. If 173 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.120 you build a wind farm in Germany today, over the 174 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:30.879 life of that wind farm on a levelized basis, if 175 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:33.200 base load is one hundred, best you can hope to 176 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:36.600 capture is fifty to fifty five. In all of our 177 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:40.720 projects in the region. In Southeast Europe we get more 178 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.440 than nineteen the capture eight over the life of the project. 179 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:46.480 If you take a look at the average wind farm 180 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.480 in Bulgari last year, it captured one hundred and eighteen 181 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.360 percent of German basedo because it produces at the right 182 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:55.519 time when there is no wind in Germany and prices 183 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.200 are high. There's wind in spinisterin Europe and vice versa. 184 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:01.559 When there is no wind down here you may have 185 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.399 fantastic wind in northern Europe. So the point I'm trying 186 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.480 to make is from the European context, building out the 187 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.840 potential of the region is very important because this is 188 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:15.480 the lowest cost option to transition the electricity grids for 189 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:15.919 all of you. 190 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:22.480 Every developer in Western Europe always complain about permitting and connection. 191 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.759 Is it the same nightmare or is it better? In 192 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:28.399 Southeast Europe. 193 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.480 We focus on wind and storage mostly right, So storagezy 194 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:38.440 wind is excruciatingly difficult anywhere in Europe. It's probably less 195 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.200 so in Eastern Europe, but it's still very difficult. And 196 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:45.360 on top of the usual problems that you've got, you've 197 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.039 got other problems in Eastern Europe that I don't think 198 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.080 you have elsewhere. So, for example, on one of our projects, 199 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.360 we had thro Russia groups. The same people who were 200 00:11:55.559 --> 00:12:00.720 protesting against providing support to Ukraine, they were protecting against 201 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.720 our windfar There was a recent report that came out 202 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.600 by the Center for Study of Democracy that analyzed Russian 203 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:13.000 misinformation campaigns, whether it's on Ukraine or on any other topic, 204 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:15.840 and guess what they were. One of the main reasons 205 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.600 that offshore wind was stopped in Bulgaria and generally they're 206 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.600 spreading this information about wind and trying to disrupt the development. 207 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:27.159 So this has been going on. It's probably not isolated 208 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:29.440 to Eastern Europe. There are arguments to be made that 209 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.200 this is going on across Europe. Eastern Europe is probably 210 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:37.960 more susceptible, but Russia is actively trying to prevent Europe's 211 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.320 energy independence. It has been solved for many, many years, 212 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.519 and I'm not sure Europe is aware of the situation 213 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.360 and reacting according here. But bringing a knife to a gunfight. 214 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.879 Demitter, I think you're speaking to the converted when you 215 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.240 talk about our need to step up and really work 216 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.000 on energy independence. And I'd like to actually maybe follow 217 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:59.720 on on that and say, look, if you look really 218 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:04.360 from side, we've got huge energy security issues. And because 219 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:06.519 you're if I may say, at the front line, you 220 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.879 have operations in the ukrainte et cetera. Give me a 221 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.279 sense of how we can make that energy system more 222 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:14.759 secure going forward. 223 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:17.240 Sorry, I'm going to keep talking my own book, but 224 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.039 I think that's the solution, right. The distributing energy generation 225 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:24.399 is part of the solution. You can see what happens 226 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.200 when you have a six gigattes nuclear plant. That's a 227 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:31.039 single point of failure. If you replace that with sixty 228 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.039 or six hundred smaller plants, it's a lot more difficult 229 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:38.960 to take them out. So distributed renewable energy generation is 230 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.879 part of the solution, but at a broader level. Understanding 231 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.840 what's going on and knowing that this is a major 232 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.960 risk and that people are actively working against their energy 233 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.639 independence and they're against our energy security first part of 234 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.159 the process. Not quite sure where they'reet certainly not everywhere 235 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:56.600 in Europe. 236 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:00.600 Thank you for being candid. We've said in previous podcast 237 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.120 that the enemies of wind are the enemies of freedom. 238 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:08.000 You bring a very very clear example here. So you 239 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.519 talk about cables, you talk about interconnection. Do you want 240 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.600 to talk a bit about flex and how to balance 241 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:20.000 the intermittency? I guess you are looking into batteries in 242 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.159 the region. The question I always have is how well 243 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.960 the market structure are prepared to accommodate those batteries and 244 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:34.399 tracking them and providing a good remuneration to the battery investors. 245 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.440 You can look at these at different levels. If you 246 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.840 look at it at the European level, the cheapest way 247 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.120 to transition the energy system is to connect as many 248 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.399 different weathers zones as possible and do that renewables and 249 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.039 as many different weathersones as possible, because you need batteries. 250 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.600 But batteries can help you throughout the day. They could 251 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:00.639 time shift for a few hours, but it's really to 252 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.320 solve seasonal problem with batteries. When you have two weeks 253 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:07.519 of low wind and no solar, you country land battery. 254 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.919 That's going to be just prohibitably expensive. So the best 255 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.919 way to solve that problem is to connect a different 256 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:17.240 weather zone. Again, that point I made about Southeast Europe 257 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:20.200 being one of those different weather zones, that's at the 258 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:25.200 broader level. At the local level, you are absolutely right 259 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.639 that some market lack the tramwork and the regulation to 260 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:33.519 take full advantage of batteries. We are getting there. Even 261 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.559 in our markets. The system operators have realized that batteries 262 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:43.200 are fundamentally important, so they're very accommodative. More and more 263 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:47.320 the revenue stack for batteries is driven not by uncillary 264 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.879 services but by time shifting. If you look at Southeast Europe, 265 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.279 because the region is short power but it's long solar, 266 00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.120 you have the biggest min max spreads in Europe. When 267 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.120 it's sunning, you have oversupply, and when the sun sets 268 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.679 you're short, so you've got very low prices mid day 269 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.120 and very high prices in the evening. So the average 270 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.600 spread in a place like Hungary last year was more 271 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.360 than one hundred years. The three highest daily minmac spreads 272 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:22.240 in Europelus Tier were Bulgaria, Romanian, Hungary. So you don't 273 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:27.159 need unculary services to justify battery more and more, with 274 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.279 the cost of storage where it is today, the economics 275 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.639 actually look fantastic even without the extra revenue you get 276 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:35.039 from uncivere services. 277 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.080 Timeter, I'm saying off the same hymn sheet as you, 278 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.840 and I think Luran as as well, because what I'm 279 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.480 actually hearing also is what I would say a vision 280 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.039 for the future or power system, which is you need 281 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.679 to increase interconnection. You're doing this one because as you said, 282 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:51.919 it's in particular wind, it's much easier to move wind 283 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.279 from west to north or north to south or whatever. 284 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.200 But that's also really good for energy security. And the 285 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.840 second thing is also the whole view around solar, which 286 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.319 is solar is not about moving it's solar from east 287 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.880 to west or north to south. It really is about 288 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.880 storing it for a few hours, right, because it's really predictable, 289 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:14.279 and by doing all of this you make the system 290 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.400 more secure. And actually what you're doing from a European 291 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.319 perspective is we're all completely relying on each other, right 292 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.160 like today you said earlier on Ukraine is relying on 293 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.880 Southeast Europe for its power today, right, which you could 294 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.240 think was unimaginable even four years ago. You would never 295 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.480 think this. I want to thank you for your vision. 296 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:37.960 Yeah, just to out on top of that, there is 297 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.200 a lot of europe bashing these days. It's very popular, 298 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.200 especially across the Atlantic. But it's energy poor. You can't 299 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:47.880 change that. We just don't have the hydrocarbons in the ground. 300 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.759 But it is actually very well interconnected, so we could 301 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.079 leverage that existing advantage. And the other thing that Europe 302 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.359 has going for it, and the other way you can 303 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:03.119 actually reduce your foreign dependence is by improving energy efficiency. 304 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.880 And if you look at the European economy, it's dramatically 305 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.119 more energy efficient than the US. So that's two major 306 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.039 advantages in Europe pass that we need to lean into. 307 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.480 Broadly speaking, it's pretty obvious what the solution is the 308 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:23.119 poor independence issue, to the climate issue, to the cost issue. 309 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.160 You know, it's building out more renewables all over Europe. 310 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.200 Dimita, your developer of on Obles, can you give us 311 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.680 a concrete example of a project you've been developing the 312 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.319 past two years and what is Vanilla and any other 313 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.920 developer would have done in any other country, And you 314 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.799 know what was really specific about your approach. 315 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:50.039 Obviously, development is a long game, so you need to 316 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.480 see around corners and you need to try to guess 317 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.039 where the world's going to be five six seven years 318 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.680 from now, because when you start the wind farm development, 319 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.039 it's going to be commercialized in five six seven years, right. 320 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.559 So what we did right in Southeast Europe with our 321 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.400 current portfolio is that we saw where the market was 322 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.240 going and we bet on the two technologies that we 323 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.559 think are being validated by the market today and that 324 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.440 those are wind and storage. What we did different back 325 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.240 when the company was started a big wind farm was 326 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.000 fifty one hundred megwas our first ever project, was Europe's 327 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.799 largest onshore wind farm. It was a six hundred megwats 328 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.440 project we developed in Romania, so we were one of 329 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.480 the pioneers in the region. We developed the largest in 330 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:39.519 the biggest wind farms in Bulgaria and Romania in Serbia. 331 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.440 I guess what we did differently and what we do 332 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:46.720 differently today is we realized that scale matters. The time 333 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.319 and effort and money takes to develop a wind farm 334 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:52.839 is all the same, whether it's one hundred or three 335 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.880 hundred or five hundred megwats. So we started doing big 336 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.519 projects early on. And the technology that we focused on, 337 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.920 which is wind and storage, is also a part of 338 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.240 our unique strategy, which is now being validated by the 339 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:10.200 market because this is the profile that the market needs. Specifically, 340 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.519 in the last two three years, we develop a few 341 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.119 hybrid projects or a combination of wind, solar and storage, 342 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.680 where you're utilizing your grid connection better, you're producing a 343 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.920 better profile and on a portfolio basis, this has a 344 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:27.920 lot of value helping the grid as well by being 345 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.200 less intermittent. I guess a lot of projects going forward 346 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.000 they are going to be hybrids. I don't see a 347 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.000 lot of solar only getting built in the future. You 348 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.640 always have to be paired with storage, and we've been 349 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:39.839 doing that for a long time. 350 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.759 Jametter, maybe as a last question, give you a little 351 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.880 bit of a view of how you see the future 352 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:47.960 of energy in Eastern Europe. 353 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.359 I'm quite optimistic about the region. The region has a 354 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.519 very good basis on which it can build. Obviously, the 355 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.400 power market is going to have to be largely renewables, 356 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.240 bas we do have quite a lot of nuclear in 357 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:06.279 the region, so that provides a good carbon free foundation, 358 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.359 but anything on top of that will have to be renewables, 359 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.640 and that's going to allow us to be energy independent, 360 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:16.920 but also it's going to allow us to be economically 361 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.799 competitive because the profile that we can generate in this 362 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.559 region is going to be very valuable in the European context. 363 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.160 So we can not only decarbonize and transition are grids, 364 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.640 we can actually benefit by helping the rest of Europe 365 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.039 decarbonized and transition their grids, and that's quite valuable in 366 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.240 the broader European context. So I'm quite excited about the 367 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.319 opportunities in Eastern Europe. There are a lot of challenges, 368 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.920 of course, but probably speaking un optimistic about the future. 369 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.559 Kivian Tel, thank you so much for coming on the 370 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:53.240 show and shedding light on a different zone, which also 371 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:58.720 mean that more cables and more integration and increasing the 372 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:02.599 size of the grids. It's not only beneficial to you're 373 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.599 part of Europe, but beneficial to Europe as a whole. 374 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.039 So thank you very much for making that case. Also 375 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.839 the Russians, the Russians are enemies. 376 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.599 Okay, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. 377 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.920 Thanks timitar No. It's been a good discussion and we 378 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.359 wish you all the best in the future. So Ron, 379 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.559 let me tell you my reflections on this podcast. My 380 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:28.160 reflections really are all about the need for energy independence, 381 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.400 particularly in the Eastern Europe. You know, when you're on 382 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:33.799 the front line at Russia, you realize we do not 383 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.200 want to be held to ransom by them again. And 384 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.920 the best way to actually go and do that, and 385 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.920 the quickest way is you electrify and your nobilized. And 386 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.759 this is what I take out of the podcast is 387 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:49.839 that this is what's happening in the Balkan region in 388 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.039 Eastern Europe. It's just incredibly strategic. It's not about the environment, 389 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.960 it really is about energy security. 390 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.599 And look, the great things is in your we are 391 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.480 sharing a lot with our eastern front. So it means 392 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.519 that a lot of things that we've been able to 393 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:10.319 develop in Western Europe get deployed much faster. Also in 394 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.440 East on your rope, for instance, Timita is allied with Mercuria, 395 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:19.279 with a great energy training company. So we start seeing 396 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.799 financial interest in developing those projects because guess what, they 397 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.559 are probably more lucrative than the one that you would 398 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.519 find in places like Spain or Germany where sometime we 399 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:32.519 reach saturation. 400 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.480 Yeah, there was another thing that I wanted to bring up, Lauren, 401 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.200