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Speaker 1: Myself and thirty other science and reason loving Tennesseeans just

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took a trip out to Dayton, Tennessee to celebrate the

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one hundredth anniversary of the Scopes Monkey Trial. If you

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don't support the separation of church in state, call us

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because the show's starting right now. What is up everybody

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today is July thirteenth, twenty twenty five. I'm your host, Secularity,

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and joining me today is the always amazing J Mike.

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What's up?

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Speaker 2: Brother?

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Speaker 3: How much I've made the like noube error of I

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don't know, being on like a show, which is like

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having the video up in the background, and then I'm

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like hearing double SR. I'm like, oh my god, what

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is happening. I'm like, I'm a professional. So you're a professional.

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Speaker 1: For a moment there, you were really really concerned. You

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were like, why am I hearing so much of SR?

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There's too much out there already. That's I get it.

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Speaker 4: That's fair.

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Speaker 1: That's fair, man. I almost was.

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Speaker 3: It's like your voice is like doing something weird. I

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don't know if you're like a lizard.

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Speaker 1: Person or something.

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Speaker 5: You know what.

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Speaker 1: I have been accused. I have been accused of such things,

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you know, the jury's still out, you know, but you

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know what, what what have you been up to?

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Speaker 4: Man?

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Speaker 1: How have you been what you've been doing.

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Speaker 3: I've been really good. I've had some really good news.

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I wish I could share and stuff, but I can't

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at the moment. But it's I've had some really awesome

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things happen. So I'm actually in a really good state

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of mind and I'm feeling awesome.

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Speaker 1: So that's fantastic. Yeah, man, that's really good, really good.

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And I am definitely I don't know if we're just

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both riding the same wave of goodness and stuff, because yeah,

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like I was saying in the intro, I just I

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just had this awesome trip out to this tiny little

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town in Tennessee where one hundred years ago the John T.

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Scopes monkey trial took place, and myself and a bunch

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of other people were organizing this and and we all

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got out there and hung out in the town and

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we watched we watched the whole reenactment of the trial.

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If you're not familiar with this, this is actually a

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really really cool, interesting moment that happened in the United States,

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where teaching science and evolution was legally restricted in the

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state of Tennessee for about forty to fifty years, and

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this guy, John Scopes was put on trial for it

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and was convicted of breaking the law. So super super fascinating,

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fascinating time in history, and it was just it's so

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cool that it was so close to us, and we

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got a really cool community of secular and non religious

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humanist kinds of people here in the middle Tennessee. Yes, folks,

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even in the buckle of the Bible belt, we sinners

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and atheists are there.

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Speaker 3: But before we well, you didn't set you didn't set up,

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Like you didn't tell me about how you set it up

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for me and everyone like backstage and you just like

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sent the.

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Speaker 1: Image or whatever. And I'm sitting there like it's like

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an image. Like everybody's like they got the outfit on,

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they're looking the part.

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Speaker 3: And then like SR just in the chair with like

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twenty twenty five clothes, and I'm like, he didn't give

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like a lot of background for he just kind of

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sent the image.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, is he like an actor now he's.

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Speaker 3: Like Hollywood SR doing these these roles trying to find

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like I can find an atheist role here and put

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us on the map.

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Speaker 1: Or something, and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Trying to think of like what is this and it

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was like this reenactment kind of thing, right, and I'm

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sitting there like maybe it's just a case.

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Speaker 1: They're like doing a dry run with him.

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Speaker 3: Everybody else has job security and they're fine, like you

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can all wear the clothes for the movie, but we're

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just not sure about Yeah, you're gonna stay kind of

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coming off like a lizard person with these weird voices. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. A couple of a couple of us got picked

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to be on the jury, and the jury has lines

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in the play and so they literally just handed us,

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you know, a little script and we got to go

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up there and say a few lines and it was

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it was a super super fun time. It was an

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absolutely incredible thing. And you know, that's the type of

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stuff that I love, that community organizing, that that all

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of us getting together and being in the same place.

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And in fact, I know it's already out there, but

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I'm not I'm not gonna mention it just yet, but

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j Mike, you and I are going to be getting together,

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uh here before too long, even not not too long,

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And we'll tell you guys more about that and how

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you can come hang out with j Mike and Scott

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Dickey and Forrest Valcai and Kelly Laughlin, all the amazing

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people with the ACA. But before we do that, I

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have to tell you the Atheist Experience as a product

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of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five to one

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c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

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critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.

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I fricking love it. And that's what I was talking

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about today, and I love that topic. And you know what, man,

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we got some calls, so we're just going to go

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right into what do you think.

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Speaker 3: I'm That's why I'm here for the for the big bucks.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Awesome man. Well the check is in the mail. Uh,

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but we are gonna get out to zero dollars. Oh,

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they gave you a raise. Let's we are going to

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go out to New Jersey. Man. This is a this

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is a real thing.

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Speaker 6: That's right.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk with Marion no pronouns given is

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a theist and says they've got personal experience, scientific evidence,

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and historical evidence leading them to Christianity. Well, Marian, this

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is exactly what we want to hear you are on

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the show with Jami Consecularity.

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Speaker 7: What's up?

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Speaker 6: Hi?

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Speaker 1: How are you good? Are you?

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Speaker 2: Hi?

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Speaker 8: How are you good?

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Speaker 1: What you got for us today?

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Speaker 3: I'm already skeptical? Sure, yeah, it sounds like all right, it.

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Speaker 8: Looks like there's like a little bit of a lag

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between the lines.

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Speaker 1: It probably is, It probably is.

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Speaker 3: This is sounding very weird to me already, Sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: What what do you got for us today?

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Speaker 3: Marian?

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you've got a couple of different pieces

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of evidence and some personal experience. What would you say

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is the is the strongest reason that you believe in Christianity?

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Speaker 8: Okay, So I'm you know, I'm just going to leave

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my opinion and out of it because what I think

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and probably we're going to have to agree to disagree,

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but I'm just going to leave my opinion out of it.

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And you can just google the facts that I'm going

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to give you, or the information that I can give you,

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Well google it.

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Speaker 3: And that's not really how we that's not really how

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we run the show, though we don't. Like I mean,

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there might be things that I need to look into

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later or something, right, that's perfectly fine, But what we

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want to do is have a dialogue.

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Speaker 8: So okay, yeah, I'm just going to give you yeah,

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so yeah, that's fine, Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Okay, So I'm

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just going to say that the Bible was written over

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a period of over fifteen hundred years, right on three

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different continents and three different languages Greek, Cubrew, and Aramaic,

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and forty different writers with over sixty three thousand correlations.

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Yet they all come together to say one story that's

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in the Resurrection of Christ.

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Speaker 1: Do they say one story?

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Speaker 3: Though?

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Speaker 2: Real quick?

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Speaker 1: Hang on, arian I know you, I know you have

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some more stuff, but I want to make sure that

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we're all being honest here, get out a time. They

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really all say one singular story. Are you familiar with

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Professor Joel Baden and the documentary hypothesis?

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Speaker 8: So they foreshadow the Old Testament. A lot of the

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story's foreshadow the hold on.

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Speaker 3: You were just at Marianne. You were asked a question, Maryann,

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you were asked a question. You were asked a question.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, you didn't hear it, but I can, so

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I'm sorry I must have missed it. Then, So the

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question was, are you familiar with Joel Baden's work? Doctor

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Joel Baden's work and the documentary hypothesis, Are you.

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Speaker 8: Familiar with Sir Lionel lacoul?

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Speaker 1: I am, but I am? But are you? Are you

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familiar with the thing that I asked first? Because that's

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actually really important. You you used, you used, you used

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a concept. You didn't say the word univocal, but that's

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what you were getting at, which means that there is

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essentially one voice, which is is how you know the

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literature people describe it one author writing all of the narratives.

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So if you go take a look at, say The

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Lord of the Rings, it is very clear from start

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to finish of that entire series that the same person

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wrote it. Because we all have different styles of writing,

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we all have different words and phrases that we use.

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The concept of a univocal Bible, for instance, has has

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really not been a part of scholarship for a long

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time now. Nobody who studies the Bible says that all

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of the authors and all of the stories are pointing

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in the same direction. I just think that's a really

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fair thing for us to touch base on first. We

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can move on, but I really do think you should

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look into Joel Baden's work okay, okay, And.

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Speaker 8: You can also look at the Sirlinel Lacou.

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Speaker 1: I am familiar. I am familiar with that, and it

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doesn't address anything of the documentary hypothesis. I think it's

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interesting that you bring that up when you aren't familiar

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with the documentary hypothesis.

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Speaker 3: Again, it's weird that. Yeah, it just sounds like this

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weird deflection that you want to like. I'm we haven't

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talked for a long time, but at the moment, you

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haven't convinced me that you're like listening to SR You're

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just kind of thinking about the next thing to say

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in response.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fair assessment?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 8: No, I just want to continue my thoughts because.

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Speaker 3: You yeah, I know, but look, this is a yeah,

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I know, this is a dialogue, right, And we have

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a show and we will cut people off when we're

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having discussions with them because we want to understand, and

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I'm not going to let people just steamroll, right. I

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think that's a reasonable position to have to just not

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let someone steamroll. If you go watch the last week

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that I did, watch how many times the callers interrupted

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me and I stopped talking. I think interruptions are healthy.

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There's times where I'm trying to make a point. I

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don't want to be interrupted, right, But we got it.

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We have to move at this one, one pace at

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a time. Your response to S are there just seem

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like you weren't really digesting what was said to you, right,

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And I don't even want to get to my points

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until we tie this knot right. It's really hard to

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do that because it doesn't sound like you're listening.

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Speaker 8: Ask me a question.

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I was trying to make sure I'm listening.

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Speaker 8: But you said, you're asking me a question. What do

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you think? So I said, I'm going to get I

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do a couple of things that you can maybe look

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up later.

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Speaker 1: And I was in the middle, I'm not and I

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what did I say to that? What did I say

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to that?

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Speaker 3: I said, look, there might be some things that I

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need to look up later, and that's perfectly fine. But

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what I'm not going to do is use the call

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as a as a grocery list of googling.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'm not gonna That's not how I perform.

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Speaker 3: That's not how SR performs, it's not how to show performs.

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It's not what we're doing here. We want to have

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a dialogue right, So if you're not working like I

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don't know, like Pete, like what Peter three fifteen right, am,

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I I'm sorry, Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 1: It's something like that. Yeah, right, you're supposed to be

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ready to give your Yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean it's to me, this is not going to be

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like I would rather just move on if what you're

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going to do is just do this like grocery list thing, right,

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So like, let's try this and maybe we can get

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back to it. Right, let me ask you a question.

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Speaker 8: I don't want to do a grocery list. I just

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don't wanna. I just don't wanna. I just don't want

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to leave my I just want to leave my opinion

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out of it so that we're not in a content.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to know your opinion. So if you're

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just yeah, we do want to know your opinion, fairness, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We want to know what you think, why you hold

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the beliefs you do. I can tell you why hold

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the I do. But do you think that do you

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think that Mark and John detail the exact same day

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of the resurrection of the crucifixion and resurrection and the

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Crucifixion was on the same day, and.

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Speaker 1: Mark and John in their own perspectives. Yes, in their

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own perspectives, So it sounds like a no. I just

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want to say, mary Anne, if we're if we're being

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hang on real quick, if we're just being straightforward, right,

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that sounds like what you're saying, there is no Because

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like if if Jay Mike came up to me and

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he said to me, like, hey, sr, is your gumball

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machine and your stained glass window of a cow in

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the same room, and I would say, from their own perspectives,

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that doesn't sound like a yes. And I think that's

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I think that's the more direct and honest answer. Now,

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there can be reasons as to why those can be harmonized, right,

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we can get to that, But the first thing we

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gotta do is we gotta we got to just be

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direct and just just be real, just be real people

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about it, Like, no, no, they don't, Mary Anne, and

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you you believe that, you believe that they don't, but

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they can be harmonized, and that's okay, we'll get to that.

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But yeah, what what is that harmonization If they aren't,

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If they aren't, if it isn't just an obvious yes,

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what what is that answer then that makes those makes

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those the same.

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Speaker 8: Okay, so I'm going to go back to Sir Lionel Lakou,

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which is a.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, no, you know, you know, you know

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what's awesome about this show is we have a we

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have a mute button, and I can and I went

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right to it, and you got it before me.

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Speaker 1: Right. So if you want to have a show where

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you were, like, you know, you just.

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Speaker 3: Want atheists to call in to give you stuff to

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google and then look up and then not answer questions

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and go back to the thing and be totally disrespectful,

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you can have that show, like have the disrespectful Marianne show.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. That's your prerogative, right.

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Speaker 3: We are doing something here. We have a format. The

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format is having a dialogue. The format is also not

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just ignoring what we say and then just going right back.

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You're being extremely disrespectful, and I'm happy to We have

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other callers.

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Speaker 1: As a theist in.

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Speaker 3: The call I'm looking right here says wants to give

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an argument for God or arguments for God's existence. Right,

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they've called in about philosophical arguments. They might have something

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like I might be able to like chew on right,

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maybe I don't agree at the end of the day,

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Like you said, agree to disagree, but at least there's

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something for me to chew on. You're just like google

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this stuff or I'm gonna go back to this stuff.

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So let's try this one last time, and if not,

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I'm happy to just you know, ask or if you

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want to talk.

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Speaker 1: I'm done.

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Speaker 3: I'm losing my patience with this caller. I don't find

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them to be an honest person and discussion. So I'm

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gonna ask you. If it's one person and they detail

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a day like Friday or Saturday, or two different days,

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or two different times of the day like noon or whatever,

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right or in the morning at two different times, and

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it's by the same person, it's a contradiction, right. And

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if it's several different people, they contradict each other. Right.

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I don't really know which way you interpret this that

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it works out. So maybe we get back to what

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SR asked you about to help.

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Speaker 1: You, which is harmonizing me.

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Speaker 3: It's trying to help us figure out what gets rid

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of this because we're not saying, ah, I gotcha. We

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want to know how this is explained, but talking about

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you know, Sir mcdougan, is not really interesting to me

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right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's we've still got you muted, Mary Anne, and

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I'm going to unmute you here and just second. And

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when I do that, you're gonna hear a beep. And

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that's okay. Just give me just one second because I

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want to I want to just try and we'll just

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we'll just rewind it all, okay, and we'll just start

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out with this. And before I ask the question, I'm

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just gonna help you out as much as I can,

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which is, go right into it and give us the

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best thing you got. Okay. So it sounds like what

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you're saying to us today is that all of these

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stories in the Bible were written by a single voice.

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We're written with a single intention in mind. Why why

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do you.

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Speaker 8: Believe that all scripture is given by inspiration of God? Correct?

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Speaker 1: How do you know that?

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Speaker 8: Because there is again over I will say it again there.

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It was written over a period of fifteen hundred years,

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on three different continents, three different languages, with over sixty

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three thousand correlations.

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Speaker 1: Do you see why that's circular?

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Speaker 5: Marian?

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Speaker 1: Do you see why you've come back to the exact

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same spot to answer you are in the same spot.

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Do you understand, Mary, understand Marian, I have looked it up,

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and more importantly than you or I looking it up,

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literally thousands millions potentially at this point of human beings

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for hundreds of years have not only looked it up,

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but Doug dug it up from the ground. And that's

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why I'm really trying to be generous here and say

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I am very very sure that Mary Ann is a

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smart and capable human being who just hasn't yet come

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across what is considered consensus scholarship for a long time now.

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The documentary hypothesis is something that undeniably lays out why

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the Bible could not possibly have been written from the

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same singular viewpoint and authorship. It's absolutely impossible. And the

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facts that you say, well, the reason that the Bible

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is from one voice is because the Bible is from

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one voice. That is in fact just circular reasoning. And

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it's a poor way to come to a conclusion. And

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I feel very confident that if anybody else brought you

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that same argument, Mary, in because you are smart, you

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are capable, you would look at them and say, I

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don't know, man, that just doesn't seem to hold water

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to me, and that's okay. We all have to do

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better when it comes to our own critical thinking. I

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really really do think one of the easiest things you

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could do is just go look up Professor Joel Baden's work. Shit,

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go listen to Kip Davis, Go listen to doctor Josh Bowen,

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doctor Megan Lewis, doctor Barst, doctor kill Right. I mean,

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there's so many people that could we could list right now,

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you know, but in all honesty, like, yeah, what what

381
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you need to do is just get a basis for it,

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which is, Hey, a lot of people pool for a

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really long time who've been studying this stuff way more

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than you and I ever could at this point in

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our lives. They say something really different from what you're saying,

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and that's important.

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Speaker 3: This is an extremely fringed position today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's and it's just where you're starting again.

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There are Christian scholars like doctor Mark Goodacre that what

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famous say again? Hang, I'm sorry, Go ahead, go ahead,

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Mary and say it again.

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Speaker 8: I said, did you look up C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis.

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Speaker 8: Wasn't he initially a famous atheist?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: My god, Lewis, you know he's an author, right, He's

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not a historian. He's not a textual critic. He's not

398
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a psych philosopher. Right, He's not. Right, He's not He's

399
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barely a philosopher. He's a writer. He wrote entertainment stuff,

400
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which is fantastic. I love The Lion the Witch in

401
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the Wardrobe. I greatly enjoyed reading that book when I

402
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was a child. I mean, what a wonderful series. And

403
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I'm sure there's a lot of Christian iconography in it,

404
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but none of that makes it true. It just makes

405
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it the stuff that he enjoyed. If somebody goes out

406
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there and writes a brand new my Little Pony story,

407
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that doesn't make it fucking real. These ponies aren't actually

408
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running around talking to each other. It's just a fun

409
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story for people. But truly, truly, if you just go

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and type in the words doctor Joel Baden bad N,

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I promise Maryanne, you will find a lot of really

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good information, and a lot of really good information. By

413
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the way, that exactly like J Mike was just saying,

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people like doctor Mark Mark Goodacre. There are so so

415
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many Christians, truly Bible believing lovers of Christ themselves who

416
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disagree with the statement that you're saying. And I think

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I think there's really solid evidence for their fund and.

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Speaker 3: They do because it's indefensible. Your position is indefensible, And

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it's like you telling me to look up something just

420
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tells me that you don't. Like there's things that I

421
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know about, you know, the apocalyptic Jesus stuff that's a

422
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pretty like standard view in New Testament scholarship, and I

423
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love spouting my mouth off about that, not like it's like, oh,

424
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I want to come off smart. I want to talk

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about the reasons why I think, you know, Jesus may

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if he had existed, this is the best kind of

427
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case that we have, right. I want to reconstruct. I

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want to be part of the project of reconstructing the

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historical Jesus and getting the best informed position.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know.

431
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Speaker 3: I mean, could you office, could you offer us like

432
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reasons that you have within you and not like go

433
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google this thing, because like that's just not very interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's just really not really not interesting. What do you

435
00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:39,640
want to do, Jane, Mike, you want to keep talking?

436
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:40,599
I want to ask.

437
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Speaker 3: I want to I want to see if she'll give

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me something from her own head.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, Marian, what what is what is something

440
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,559
from you personally, why should I believe God exists? Give me,

441
00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:52,599
give me reasons?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good. This is just it's just so disorganized, because

443
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this whole thing is so disorganized, Like it's like trying

444
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to get you to go on the one one path

445
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of like talking about what SR brought up originally about

446
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the documentary hypothesis, and then I'm like, Okay, well I'm

447
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not gonna answer that.

448
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Speaker 1: Let's try something else.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk about you said that it's the same

450
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you know, person in these cases fled for the Gospel.

451
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Like I imagine you think that the Gospels are harmonized

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right in some way. So I just point out, like, okay, well,

453
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presumably you don't think that the Gospel writers are all

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the same. You probably think it's like Mark, Matthew, Luke,

455
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and John right, and they disagree. And I just wanted

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to know how you would reconcile that. But what you

457
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did was not actually give me anything. You just wanted

458
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to go back to the other thing.

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Speaker 1: They do disagree, though by your own definition, Mary Anne,

460
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you said it earlier. You already admitted to it. You

461
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already admitted to the fact that the Gospels cannot possibly

462
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be in.

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Speaker 8: Agreement I said, can I give you an analogy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I can, but it won't be helpful. You can't.

465
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It won't be helpful.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Well I think it will be so that maybe.

467
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Speaker 1: You can understand why go for it. You don't have to,

468
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,799
you don't have to explain why you're having an analogy.

469
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,039
We understand that the problem is that the analogy will

470
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fail very quickly in a very obvious way that won't

471
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relate to this situation. Analogy should equal up, but this

472
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,200
one won't. But go ahead, Maryanne. You need properties in

473
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both cases that are like it.

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Speaker 8: Will I promise that you will. I promise you it will.

475
00:21:20,319 --> 00:21:22,400
One of us promise you it will if you, if

476
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,160
you let it, if.

477
00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: You have an open on this.

478
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:35,279
Speaker 3: Nuts, let's just go all right, analogy we're about to

479
00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:35,759
talk about.

480
00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,319
Speaker 8: Sorry, there's a lag in the in the line that basically,

481
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,720
if me and you are standing on a corner of

482
00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:45,559
a street. If me and you are standing on the

483
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:47,960
corner of a street, and there's a car in front

484
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,160
of us, okay, and two cars whatever they collide, okay,

485
00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:53,519
and we're both watching the accident, and the police came

486
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,960
to me and asked me what I saw, and I

487
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,000
give him my eyewitness account of what I saw, and

488
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:00,920
then he came to you, and you for your report

489
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,119
and see what you saw you could your your report

490
00:22:04,279 --> 00:22:06,920
will be not one hundred the same as well.

491
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,759
Speaker 1: I's what I think I have muted you because I

492
00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:12,799
knew that's what you were going to say. Fine, and

493
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,599
I'll point out to you exactly the problem here. There

494
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,480
is no issue if what the gospels said was something like, yeah,

495
00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:25,400
I saw like a handful of people, you know, maybe

496
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,920
it was five, maybe it was seven, could have been

497
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,880
as much as ten, but definitely no more or no less.

498
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,279
And then the next one said, well it might have

499
00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:38,000
been a dozen, or it could have been as low

500
00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:42,480
as eight. You know, those two things would be analogous

501
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:45,079
to what you were bringing us just a moment ago.

502
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,400
But that is not the problem. And it's even worse.

503
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 3: It's even worse, Yeah, because like you have that, and

504
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,240
then on top of that, what you have is when

505
00:22:54,279 --> 00:22:56,559
I'm trying to inquire about your view, I have two

506
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,359
dates that the Gospel tell about Jesus Jesus crucifixion, and

507
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,880
I want to say and virtue of what is one

508
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,559
of those right rather than the other, because they could

509
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,640
both just be wrong. So I could just go for

510
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,079
the sake of charity, which there's like no reason I

511
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:13,279
should even be this charitable. But I like to give

512
00:23:13,319 --> 00:23:15,440
the toys to play with because I really think that

513
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,440
these positions are indefensible. That you can show this better

514
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,720
by giving them more toys to play with. So it's

515
00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:23,079
just assume that one of them has to be right.

516
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,480
He was crucified on this date. I think Jesus was crucified, right, Okay,

517
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:28,400
too great, that's fine right right now, I don't have

518
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:31,039
the most immense evidence. It's going to convince my atheist

519
00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:33,759
friends that don't believe that or something right. But I'm

520
00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:35,880
happy to go on board with that. So we got

521
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,759
Jesus is crucified, and we have these two dates. One

522
00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:39,079
of them is right in virtue of what is one

523
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,680
right or for the other right. It's either Saturday, it's not.

524
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,960
It's either twelve o'clock. It's not right, like there's.

525
00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,079
Speaker 1: Either five hundred or two. I mean, it's just that's

526
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,200
the issue. It is not just as simple as j

527
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,640
Mike said the shirt was slightly reddish orange, and I

528
00:23:54,759 --> 00:23:57,480
said maybe it was a burnt umber. Like No, it

529
00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:00,880
is a matter of it was it was solid black

530
00:24:01,279 --> 00:24:05,160
versus solid white. Those are the differences that have to

531
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,240
be reconciled. And I honestly think you know that, Mary Am.

532
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 3: I mean otherwise, how do I know that one of

533
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,680
the views is justified? If what's not being getting to

534
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,599
me is something justificatory, right, it needs to be a

535
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,000
reason other than like googling. It may possess that embedded

536
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,640
into the Google that I do, but it's gonna be

537
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,319
hard for me to navigate through that like and with

538
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,039
all of that information. If someone like yourself believes it

539
00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:31,200
and has reasons to believe it, you just share your

540
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:32,079
reasons with me.

541
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: Right right? Look, Jay, Mike, I think I'm ready to

542
00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:42,559
move on to forthcoming. Mary Ann. I really believe that

543
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,000
if you continue studying down this path as you have been,

544
00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:50,319
you will find out the correct information. I really do

545
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:56,079
believe that, if, however, you are combative and uninterested in

546
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,920
digging in further, and simply ready to deflect from your

547
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,799
reasoning to others, it'll be it'll be difficult. So thank

548
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:07,480
you so much for calling. I think you are You

549
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,079
are definitely very capable. I think all of our callers

550
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,759
are capable to be honest. You know, even though I sometimes, yeah,

551
00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:14,880
and I get a little angry, and I might I

552
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,240
might even I might even say bad bad words or

553
00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:19,720
call them names every now and then. But truly, I

554
00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:24,279
really do believe that if you are calling into this show, right,

555
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,759
you are interested in this stuff, and and sometimes it's

556
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,240
just simply a matter of the fact that we haven't

557
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,920
come across the information, and so we we like to

558
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,759
help provide that when we can, sometimes try.

559
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 3: To streamline it for me so I don't have to

560
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,759
do all this digging, Like right, did Jesus want me

561
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:42,880
to google stuff?

562
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: Like? You know, this is just odd to me, Like yeah,

563
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,039
and all those all those shepherds many many a year

564
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:50,319
ago didn't have the Google machine. I mean, what the

565
00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:52,640
fuck were they? They weren't on TikTok. There must be

566
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,359
other arguments and reasons. I mean, there's all these Christian

567
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,519
philosophers for years that have have gone through still after syllogism.

568
00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:05,079
I mean, come on, you know, have a deeper, stronger

569
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,720
faith if you're gonna have one. I mean I don't

570
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,279
think you should. I think you should go for reason

571
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:12,480
and evidence logic, but hey, whatever, if you're gonna have one,

572
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,200
so do you have this thing that I do unrelated. Sorry,

573
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,279
this is a no go ahead.

574
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: We're sidebarring here, So yeah, just for the audience, because

575
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,720
part private conversation. Now right here between all this, you

576
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:25,400
put this really.

577
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:26,839
Speaker 1: Annoying fucking thing where like one of.

578
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:28,559
Speaker 3: Your hairs just like touches your nose.

579
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god. All the time. One of the worst,

580
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,079
one of the worst things ever is when like I'm

581
00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:36,799
out somewhere and this, you know, a stray hair is

582
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,359
like right across my face right and I go like

583
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,200
this and it doesn't get it. And then I go

584
00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:43,480
this and it doesn't get it. I go like this

585
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,160
and it doesn't get Oh my god, is it you

586
00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:50,759
speaking existent soul right now? It's the weirdest thing ever.

587
00:26:50,839 --> 00:26:54,119
It's like, how where is this air coming from? Like,

588
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,119
am I did? I walk through a spider web? And

589
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,640
that's what I say. That's literally what I got. You

590
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,640
get out of my brain. Lizards. Yeah, yeah, you know.

591
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:05,920
That was the other thing too, about you know, having

592
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,079
long hair. For a while, it was like other people,

593
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,079
you know, I've been out places with somebody and they're like,

594
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480
oh man, there's a hair in my food, And I'm like, hmm,

595
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,559
I think I've eaten three all. Oh, i'd be gross

596
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:17,039
for people.

597
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: But maybe if someone's feeling and did something embarrassing today

598
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,400
or something. I once hugged the wrong person out of funeral,

599
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,680
So if you ever feel really really embarrassed, just think

600
00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:26,200
of me.

601
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: Like doing so awkward and hugging this random guy. But anyway,

602
00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:34,480
so so bad. It was the worst moment, so terrible,

603
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,240
I'd literally pulled the hair out of my throat.

604
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

605
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, the long haired fellows and ladies and non binary

606
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:44,680
people you all know. That would make that would honestly

607
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:48,200
make the story of Jesus so much more believable. If

608
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,160
he was like on on the you know, doing the

609
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,839
sermon on the mountain and it actually.

610
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:58,319
Speaker 3: Started with you know, Blessed are the Wind? Yeah, magical,

611
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,559
he could just probably like clears is right, right, right.

612
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: Well, we have a couple of other really cool calls

613
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,440
I'm excited to get to. But before we do that,

614
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,160
I'm gonna tell you about something that is so fricking cool.

615
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,599
It can only happen once a year because there is

616
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,759
so much awesomeness contained in this one event. If it

617
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,240
were to happen more than once, every three hundred and

618
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,559
sixty five days exactly, the world might implode. That's right, folks,

619
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:32,240
it's time for the Bat Cruise twenty twenty five, August sixteenth,

620
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:36,599
seven pm. Folks, get your tickets now because they are

621
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,039
gonna go fast. They are selling out like crazy. We

622
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,440
have already sold out the early Bat Special tickets. That's right,

623
00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:49,640
Early Bat Special tickets. No birds here, but don't worry.

624
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,160
You can still get your tickets today and honestly they

625
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,440
are really affordable. Guys there, that's a really really great

626
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,680
time if you are in or near the Austin area.

627
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:00,880
It is a super super off some time to get

628
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,440
to hang out with a bunch of people, Like I said,

629
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:04,359
j Mike's gonna be there. I'm gonna be there, Scott

630
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:06,599
Dicky's gonna be there. Forest Falke is going to be there.

631
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,680
It is an awesome experience. The largest urban bat population

632
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:16,440
in the world hangs out under this bridge and Congress

633
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Avenue Bridge, I think, and it is an awesome time

634
00:29:21,079 --> 00:29:23,319
to just see all these bats kind of in Unison

635
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,559
come out so tiny dot cc slash Bat Cruise is

636
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,920
the place to go and.

637
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,279
Speaker 3: Let me set them up with a little visual if

638
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:34,759
you please, so you get you'll get to like come

639
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:37,680
on Sunday even after you can come to the studio

640
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:38,279
and hang out.

641
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:42,319
Speaker 1: So and then like we go out that night, the

642
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:43,079
bat Cruise night.

643
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: We go like, if anyone wants to come hang out

644
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:47,400
in that weekend, if you can find a way, just

645
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,160
contact me anyway to emails or whatever. I'd be happy

646
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,519
to meet up with with anyone.

647
00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: Grab it.

648
00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:53,799
Speaker 3: Well if you're old enough, right, we can get drink,

649
00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:56,559
we can get some food or whatever. Like, but it

650
00:29:56,599 --> 00:29:59,599
isn't it is awesome. It's you know, it's obviously serious,

651
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:00,119
but it's.

652
00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:01,039
Speaker 1: It's also a party.

653
00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: It's fun, so you know, you know, we people have

654
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,839
serious discussions with people, but in an awesome, awesome and

655
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:11,119
awesome environment. I said, and awesome and awesome. Just then fine,

656
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:12,279
it's perfect. It's perfect.

657
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: It works to me, and truly it is a phenomenal time.

658
00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,880
If you have never been. If you have been, you

659
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,880
definitely want to get back to it. And there are

660
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,359
a lot of ways that you can actually help out

661
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:27,480
even if you can't make it. So. One of the

662
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:29,599
easiest ways that you can do this is by going

663
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,759
below the chat clicking that donate button to the ACA.

664
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,960
You can actually help purchase a ticket for a cast

665
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:39,440
or crew member, and in fact, we've already got some

666
00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:42,640
incredible people that have donated it donated already to this.

667
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,839
So we want to, you know, big massive shout out

668
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,319
and thank you to Tina Bee and Charles. You guys

669
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:53,440
are what makes these festive community gatherings possible and all

670
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,519
the work that we do here at the ACA. So

671
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440
thank you. Thank you so much Tina Bee and Charles,

672
00:30:58,839 --> 00:31:01,720
and for everybody else out there again, get your tickets

673
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:04,599
now or send in a couple bucks man, help make

674
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,599
this an awesome thing and just keep growing this community

675
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:09,920
that's been around for gosh what now, I mean almost

676
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,960
thirty years. It feels like this, this whole atheist community

677
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720
of Austin thing been going on. My god, you guys,

678
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,640
that's freaking awesome. We uh, we got we got it.

679
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,880
We got a good crew here, yea.

680
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,359
Speaker 3: And the last two years I've done this and then

681
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,039
now that this is being the third, it's the thing

682
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:29,359
I look forward to the most, like all year and

683
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,319
there's an arcade event near me that I get like

684
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:35,440
a little kid about. I had to miss it this year, unfortunately.

685
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:37,200
I was really bummed out for like a whole week.

686
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:40,119
But yeah, this tops like anything I do in the year,

687
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,160
So definitely come out.

688
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: It's really really fun. Heck yeah, heck yeah, Tiny dot

689
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,319
cc slash bat Creuse folks, get your tickets, make a donation, uh,

690
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,400
and we will see you there. August sixteenth, clam pizzas

691
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,559
with Forrest and Jamie because apparently that's what they did.

692
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,279
Oy yeah, pizza they had like they yeah, I went

693
00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:59,599
and get pizza with them and they fuck they got

694
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,359
click clam chowder pizza or some ship it was.

695
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 3: I couldn't look at them while they were eating it.

696
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,279
Speaker 1: I was just like, what for I'll try anything, let's

697
00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:08,680
do this.

698
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,079
Speaker 3: He also went to some we went to, like some bar,

699
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,079
and he made us have like pickled eggs or something

700
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:14,799
like that like.

701
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: That I try.

702
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,119
Speaker 3: But he he is awesome to go out with because

703
00:32:18,119 --> 00:32:20,759
he'll always give you, Like I don't remember things I

704
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240
go out to do with people sometimes because of the

705
00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:25,880
drinking or whatever, but he always gives something.

706
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,839
Speaker 1: For you to fucking take away to remember, and you're like, oh, yeah,

707
00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:31,319
he's like pickled eggs that one time at this bar. Yeah,

708
00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:34,039
pickled eggs and clam chowder on a pizza.

709
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 3: That sounds Yeah, it was interesting.

710
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,799
Speaker 1: That sounds horrible. I wasn't a fan. Well we uh,

711
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,680
we have some other great calls and we are gonna

712
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,400
grab him here in just a second. But we do

713
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,839
still have open lines, folks. Uh So, if you were

714
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:50,400
interested in yelling at me or J Mike, maybe we

715
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,400
said something wrong or stupid. Or maybe maybe you very

716
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,599
much believe crystals have magical powers, or that ghosts and

717
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,480
demons are real. I just any one of those things.

718
00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:03,559
Feel free to feel free to call in and yell

719
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:05,920
at us about. But we are going to go out

720
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,160
to Arizona. We are going to talk with Sam. He

721
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:11,920
him once to talk about some scientific and historic arguments

722
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,759
for God. Well that's what we're here for. Sam. You

723
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,359
are on the atheist experience with J. Mike and secularity.

724
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:17,880
What you got?

725
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 9: Hello, So hey, I'm not trying to argue for the

726
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,839
existence of a god of any particular religion. Let's just

727
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,680
call it a general theism.

728
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:29,839
Speaker 1: Sure, I think you're going to have a harder time

729
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,799
doing oh religion, just so you know, Sam, But yeah,

730
00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:35,960
I don't really know.

731
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:40,119
Speaker 9: I'm not trying to argue for the existence. I'm not

732
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400
done yet. So let's just call it general theism, because

733
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,799
even if every single religion is wrong, it wouldn't necessarily

734
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,960
point to atheism, because we can still argue for the

735
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,480
existence of a god that we just don't know anything about.

736
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,799
Speaker 1: You know, how how would you do that, Sam? How

737
00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:58,920
would you argue for anything that you don't know anything about?

738
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:01,839
What is it we're arguing for?

739
00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 9: Well, what would you accept as a good argument for the.

740
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: Exist So you don't have an answer. I just want

741
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,559
to I just want to point this out. This is yah, Sam,

742
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:15,880
This this is really really important here. Now you could

743
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,719
have just misspoke and you can just easily get right

744
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,280
back on this horse. This is a real simple one, right.

745
00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:26,679
But you said you're going to argue for the existence

746
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,719
of something that you can't know anything about or don't

747
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,719
know anything about. And it sounds like you realize already

748
00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:36,119
that's not really a possibility, is it.

749
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 3: I mean, you have to appreciate why SR, we'd want

750
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,320
to jump on here after you.

751
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,679
Speaker 9: Read that trying to say that we could.

752
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: Can I finish there's a delay? Yeah, that's actually that's

753
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,559
actually that's actually my bad. Sorry.

754
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 9: But more uh, what I was trying to say is

755
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,239
that we could argue for the existence of a more

756
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,880
deistic type god, like a like a non personal type

757
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,920
god that we can Uh.

758
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: That's fine, that's fine, if you know what I'm trying

759
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,079
to do. They can't. You can't make the claim that

760
00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:08,800
you can argue for something you don't know anything about. Right, So,

761
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,880
even if it is a god of deism, one that

762
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,719
is defined as a god that we can't know anything about,

763
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,000
you can't do that. It doesn't make sense. And that's

764
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:21,320
why I was saying right from the rip, Sam, You're

765
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,880
probably going to have a much better time going for

766
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,519
a specific version of a deity because the generalized well

767
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:33,119
god could be like this does not have any distinguishing

768
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:37,880
criteria between all of the other could bees in that scenario?

769
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:41,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, think think of like a bear designer, right, Like

770
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440
we just strip all these properties and we have just

771
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:44,639
like this bear designer.

772
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 9: Right.

773
00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:47,039
Speaker 3: Well, it's not like if you just take away all

774
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:49,920
these properties, a designer could design and they could decide

775
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,679
to refrain from designing, right, They could just go, well, yeah,

776
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,639
I could design this thing, but I actually think it's

777
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:55,639
better just to exist.

778
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,679
Speaker 1: Alone by myself, so I won't design. Right.

779
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,079
Speaker 3: You don't even get the expectation that the bear designer

780
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:04,079
would even design something because it's perfectly compatible with the

781
00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:07,079
hypothesis that the bear designer designs nothing at all. Right,

782
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:09,320
it just has the ability to design. So do you see,

783
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:13,239
like it's really difficult how you're going to generate expectations

784
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,199
when you look out in the world. What I see

785
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,920
is scientific and historical arguments for God, I don't know,

786
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:19,719
maybe we want to elucidate more on that, but like

787
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,760
I if your argument's going to be like, well, there

788
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,039
are you know, there's morals in the world, and so

789
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,920
I have this bear designer thing. What best explains that

790
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:31,599
is like general theism will know because it's perfectly compatible

791
00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:34,519
with general theism that they're like an a moral being

792
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:37,280
and don't want, you know, like morals at all, or

793
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,119
the morals come as a side effect that they didn't

794
00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:41,719
know anything about, because remember we've stripped away like omissions

795
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:42,119
and stuff.

796
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:44,199
Speaker 1: Probably like I don't know what we're adding into.

797
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 3: This, so it's not really clear, Like I'd like to

798
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,920
hear the setup, but it just preliminary. It just seems

799
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,719
like you're wanting us to focus on this like vanilla

800
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,320
austere corner of the room that no one actually believes in.

801
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,639
And that's the part that frustrates me because the way

802
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:01,239
that I I want to hear your reasons, but when

803
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,679
it comes to comparing my view to someone else's view,

804
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,480
it's hard for me to go, Yeah, my view is

805
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:07,840
simpler than yours, and it explains the data better. If

806
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,440
I haven't even heard your whole view, if I've just

807
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,599
heard this like tiny, tiny little portion of the view,

808
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:13,440
because maybe the rest of the stuff helps you, or

809
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,280
maybe it inflates it even more, which is what I

810
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:16,199
predict what would happen.

811
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: So hopefully that makes sense.

812
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,199
Speaker 3: But like there's like several different angles why anticipating like

813
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,400
this is just it'd be really, it'd be awesome if

814
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,920
you wanted to talk about the thing you actually believe in, right,

815
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,840
But it's fine, we can talk about general theism. I'll

816
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,239
just assume that your actual position is indefensible and you're

817
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,519
kind of like worried about arguing about it.

818
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:36,119
Speaker 1: But if you're not, feel free to do that.

819
00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,559
Speaker 9: Dude, Well, I was actually going to get to some points.

820
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:42,639
But but what you said about there being sort of

821
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,320
like this evil god, that's actually a good point that

822
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,400
you brought up. And and I like to think that

823
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,400
if there was such a thing as an evil God,

824
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:53,800
then he wouldn't be God, because would you argue that exist.

825
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,519
Speaker 3: I didn't say evil, I said a moral which means

826
00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:57,519
neither good or bad.

827
00:37:57,639 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 9: That's a good thing.

828
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: I didn't say evil God or immoral God. I said

829
00:38:02,079 --> 00:38:05,079
a moral God. Right that means neither good or bad.

830
00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:07,599
It's like, like a rock is a moral right, doesn't

831
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:09,960
that It's not like a moral agent. Right, it doesn't

832
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,480
possess like anything normative or it's just like a rock. Right,

833
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,440
it's not a moral agent. Like if a rock fell

834
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,239
in your head, you wouldn't be like, hold the rock responsible. Well,

835
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,119
there's somebody I know that would say that. That's I'm

836
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,079
not going to get into that, all right, So that's

837
00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:24,920
not what I'm saying.

838
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,119
Speaker 9: Well, makes you say that my position, don't.

839
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,199
Speaker 3: You don't have any I predict that, I predict your

840
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,800
I predict your position as indefensible because if you don't

841
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,159
want to talk about that, and you want to talk

842
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:39,320
about this vanilla austere corner of the room theism. So

843
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,400
I just think that on the hypothesis that somebody wants

844
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,320
to talk about this like general idea of theism, I

845
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,280
think what like what I take that, Like what I

846
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,760
think the reason is for that or the expectation what

847
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,280
I would expect if someone didn't want to talk about

848
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,239
their view is they would keep insisting and never get

849
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,239
to their view. And it seems like I'm throughout the

850
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,239
call getting evidence that supports my hypothesis. Right, I have

851
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,159
this hypothesis that you don't want to talk about your

852
00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:04,480
view and you'd rather talk about something more generalized because

853
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:06,320
if you get wrecked on it or something like that,

854
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:08,800
however you're interpreting it, That's not the way I'm looking

855
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:09,039
at it.

856
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: But if that's the way.

857
00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 3: You're seeing it, then you have this kind of safety

858
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,519
net of general theism.

859
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: And that's fine.

860
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,159
Speaker 3: Like I have friends that do believe in that, Like

861
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,119
I know people that do. They give some pretty robust arguments, right,

862
00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:20,159
I don't accept them, but you know, it takes a

863
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,000
long time to get through and for them to explain.

864
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: But I want, you know, I want to know what

865
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:24,360
you believe.

866
00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 3: Like that's I'm I'm so fucking over this idea of

867
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:29,800
like calling in about general theism.

868
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,079
Speaker 1: Like I'll do it. It's fine. I have no problem

869
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:33,239
with that. I'm not scared of that.

870
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: But I really want to know what the person who's

871
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,960
calling believes. That's what I'm interested in. Why you believe

872
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,000
what you believe. I'm not interested in, like, do we

873
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:42,719
have knowledge, I don't fucking care. We believe things, and

874
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,000
we have reasons for believing them things, and I want

875
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,960
to know those reasons. My thing is very simple to understand.

876
00:39:48,039 --> 00:39:48,840
That's all I care about.

877
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: So let's try this, Sam, because I know we've I

878
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,239
know we've maybe gotten a little bit off of what

879
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,400
we were originally, you know, talking about. So let's do this.

880
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,840
We're going to start all the way over again, and

881
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,280
I'm going to bring you on and I'm going to say, hey, folks,

882
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,320
we're going out to Arizona. We've got Sam. He him

883
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,639
he's a theist and he wants to talk about scientific

884
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,719
and historic arguments for God. Well, hey, Sam, you're on

885
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,760
the atheist experience and we want to know. Just pick

886
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,400
one your favorite, the one you think is the best.

887
00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:26,199
Give us one scientific and or historic argument for the

888
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,920
existence of God, and go and ask us what we think.

889
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's irrelevant.

890
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:35,159
Speaker 9: Okay, So okay, so all apologies for not being more specific,

891
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,119
But my argument that I want to present is not

892
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:41,639
a historical or scientific argument. It's more of a philosophical

893
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,239
argument called the ontological argument. I'm sure you've heard that

894
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,360
a million times before.

895
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: Yes, and and preto much.

896
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 9: The god that I subscribe to is pretty much the

897
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,840
god of the ontological argument because it can because if

898
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,920
it's possible.

899
00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: To think of, give the argument, just give the argument,

900
00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:00,840
Just give the argument, Give the argument, just give the argument.

901
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,079
There's different ontological argument is a category of arguments. There's

902
00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:08,280
modal ontological arguments, right, So like, are you giving.

903
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: A modal ontological argument?

904
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 3: Are you giving some other type of ontological argument I'm

905
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,679
very familiar with, like the category of ontological arguments. It

906
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:16,280
doesn't make sense to be like, I'm arguing for the

907
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,639
god of ontological arguments, right, because they're not compatible. Like

908
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,320
someone might not accept s five, for example, but still

909
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,039
like hold some other type of ontological argument that doesn't

910
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:28,480
deal with modality at all.

911
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: Well, right, I could.

912
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 9: Give you the argument, but you keep talking.

913
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:36,039
Speaker 3: But you keep talking over here, I asked, I'm going

914
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:37,840
to tell you now, Sam, you're gonna give the I'm

915
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,400
gonna unmute you, and you're gonna give the argument. But

916
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,000
I'm correcting you because you said, I believe in the

917
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:44,960
God of ontological arguments, which is like a mouthful of

918
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,000
a sentence, right, And the way to interpret that sentence

919
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:50,679
how you're saying that is that like this God is

920
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:53,480
compatible with like this one idea of this, this concept

921
00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:55,119
of God is compatible with all these arguments. But there's

922
00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:58,239
gonna be people that run modal ontological arguments or different

923
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,840
arguments where they're their version of theism wouldn't be compatible

924
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,440
with running a modal ontological argument, right, So just give

925
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,239
your argument.

926
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: I'm just correcting you on something you said. That was it?

927
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,679
Maybe I shouldn't have, So just give your argument.

928
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 7: Okay.

929
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,679
Speaker 9: So let's define God as the greatest possible being, that

930
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,719
which nothing greater can be conceived, and if you think

931
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:22,119
of something greater than that God, then that God just

932
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:22,960
wouldn't be God.

933
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 7: And so.

934
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 9: God as the greatest conceivable being must exist in reality to.

935
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,079
Speaker 1: Oh my God, Really, you wasted all that time just

936
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:41,079
for that, Like that's it? Fucking loser, you're that scared?

937
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,559
What a loser? I know? I mean, what an absolute

938
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:50,960
did you see when I was a piece of ship

939
00:42:51,199 --> 00:42:53,159
on the internet? Did you see that was so cool?

940
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,960
I would show this to all my family and friends.

941
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:57,679
I would say, here's what I did on the Internet.

942
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: You fucking wouldn't because and you know that ship racist

943
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,719
piece of shit go fuck yourself.

944
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,199
Speaker 1: What's really interesting too, is that like and and you know,

945
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:09,880
bigotry and hatred and so forth, physiological and you know,

946
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,079
so forth. But anyway, let me just let me just

947
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:14,320
put this out there, which is just simply like, you

948
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,679
must be in twenty twenty five, you must be at

949
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,719
least enough of not a dipshit to know how video

950
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,679
editing works and like the Internet and stuff, right, Like

951
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:31,079
that can't possibly be the case. Yeah, it can't possibly

952
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:33,760
be the case that anybody in this day and age

953
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:37,400
is so absolutely worthless of a human being that they

954
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,480
don't recognize that. Like, it'll never be shown, you know. Now,

955
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:46,440
maybe even all of this discussion after the fact won't

956
00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:51,119
be either. But hey, I can say unequivocally, Sam, you

957
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:55,880
better fucking hope your God's not real worthless fuck AnyWho,

958
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:58,519
We do have an awesome crew, don't we, J Mike.

959
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:01,360
We have the best fucking crew ever. I wonder if

960
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,639
we could see those incredible crew people. They are the

961
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,559
greatest video audio operators in the world. Note takers, call screeners,

962
00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:13,039
chat moderators. They are responding to your emails. They are

963
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:18,079
keeping the building running. They are the coolest motherfuckers out there.

964
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:22,920
Way better, way better than Sam. Yes, yes, all good

965
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:23,719
people are.

966
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: Saying that, mainly because half of my screen on there

967
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,920
is covered up by a microphone.

968
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,519
Speaker 1: That I am right. I had to get directions.

969
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: On my horrible Yeah, I'd get like horrible directions, and

970
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,800
so I saw Eli's face and then I was like,

971
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,679
that's my boy. But everyone else, no disrespect. I could

972
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:40,599
like see half of Greg's face. I think like, so, man,

973
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,559
well that's okay. We we have a fantastic crew.

974
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,039
Speaker 1: They are back there crushing it left and right, left

975
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:49,360
and right. And you know what, if you want to

976
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,119
show support for the crew. I've heard that you can

977
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,559
type some things in chat. But another thing that you

978
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:57,559
can do is you could actually go to tiny dot

979
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:02,239
cc slash merch Aca and you can buy a x

980
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,159
P merch and wear it all around all the time. Uh,

981
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,119
hang it in your window, put it on your car,

982
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,920
give it to a friend that you fucking hate, whatever

983
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,920
you want to do with it, Uh do it. But

984
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:18,079
just go get that stuff because they are awesome. I

985
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:21,280
have a couple of shirts myself, and they're every so often.

986
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,840
You know, there's some of some of the old, uh,

987
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:25,440
some of the old really cool shirts that that have

988
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:27,880
you know, come through for like a month, they get

989
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,800
shoved into the vaults and they don't come out and

990
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,440
they don't see the light of day for a while,

991
00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:34,440
but every so often they they come back. So you

992
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,760
gotta you gotta, you gotta stay check it, you know,

993
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:39,000
just put it on the schedule, like every other week.

994
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:41,480
Just go check the merch store, just see if there's anything.

995
00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:44,079
Speaker 3: This actually gives me an opportunity to call no one

996
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,000
did anything wrong here. Before I say something, I wanted

997
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,199
to like phrase it if someone someone did something wrong.

998
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,559
But when I went, I think Verne like you know,

999
00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:53,079
took me out to the shed and showed me like

1000
00:45:53,199 --> 00:45:54,800
some shirts and stuff. Again, you know, take take one

1001
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,519
if you can find one in your size. And Katie

1002
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:59,599
did that the year before as well. And I'd look

1003
00:45:59,639 --> 00:46:01,519
through this box of shirts and there was.

1004
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: One that I found I really liked. I that it was cool.

1005
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 3: It's just like a drawing of a tree and it

1006
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,039
said look at me, all right.

1007
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: So I put that off to the side.

1008
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,199
Speaker 3: One of you motherfuckers that went to the back cruise

1009
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,760
last week last year took that shirt from me.

1010
00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:15,119
Speaker 1: I don't know what you wanted to took it now,

1011
00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:17,800
in all fairness, I left it there. It's my fault,

1012
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,400
but somebody took it. I want you to just like

1013
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:21,679
I put it back in the box.

1014
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 6: Dude.

1015
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: I hope this year, as we are on the cruise

1016
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,920
the bats about to emerge from the bridge, somebody she

1017
00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:31,599
bishly walks up to you with a crumpled T shirt

1018
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:36,800
in their hand and goes sorry. So that would be

1019
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,719
the best. That's bad. But you know, we have some

1020
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,239
other calls and we've got some time. So if you

1021
00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:47,440
have a burning question, you have the best freaking evidence

1022
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,800
in the world. Jamike and I are just complete and

1023
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,960
total dipshits, and we should clearly see this. You have

1024
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:57,840
time to get your calls in. But here's here's what

1025
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,239
I want to do first before we go to this.

1026
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:06,639
I want to read something that somebody actually wrote to you. Mike.

1027
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,119
Can you believe that there's a there's a comment out there. See,

1028
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,199
you had in the past compared hell to child abuse,

1029
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,559
and you called it special pleading to excuse one version

1030
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:23,360
of hell. But not the other. And uh, in response

1031
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,519
to that, we've got somebody out there that that has

1032
00:47:27,559 --> 00:47:30,719
has written a nice little comment. They say, Nope, people

1033
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,199
send themselves to hell by rejecting God. I mean, God

1034
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,360
has never sent anyone to hell. Same as if my

1035
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,159
kids refuse to come to my house when they're older,

1036
00:47:41,199 --> 00:47:46,199
I'm not refusing them entry they're choosing not to. So Uh,

1037
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,840
I mean, clearly you're you're defeated there. Clearly your argument

1038
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,760
is destroyed. I mean, what do you have to say

1039
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,719
for yourself, mister J Mike.

1040
00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 3: I mean I was looking for the response part of

1041
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,480
the comment where it address the things that you know

1042
00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:04,280
I said. I what I would say is how about this? Well,

1043
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,639
they probably not. I don't know if they'd be listening.

1044
00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:08,599
I want them to just call in have a dialogue.

1045
00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:09,519
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be amazing.

1046
00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 3: Let's have the comments or come in here and we

1047
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,239
just have a dialogue about it. That'd be amazing. So

1048
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,840
I'll extend that out to them, because I mean, I'm

1049
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,480
not I stand by what I said, and I don't

1050
00:48:18,519 --> 00:48:20,719
see how that's a response to anything I said. I

1051
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,840
don't know how I'm sending myself when I'm I mean,

1052
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,760
if I was a parent, and I had the ability

1053
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,960
to make the baby that's about to come out be

1054
00:48:29,119 --> 00:48:31,880
born with like I'm supposed to look at this baby

1055
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,960
like it's dirty rags, you know, it's worthless, just scum,

1056
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:37,599
and I have the ability to just not imbue those

1057
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:39,920
properties on it, you know. I think that would be

1058
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,559
the expectation of like a good being and stuff like that.

1059
00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:44,239
So I'd been interested to have a conversation on what

1060
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,559
they what they think the expectations of a being that

1061
00:48:47,679 --> 00:48:50,119
is good and what they would do versus the expectations

1062
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:51,800
of like an evil being and what they would do,

1063
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,320
because I think that they already believe in a pretty

1064
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,360
horrendous piece of shit.

1065
00:48:56,519 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: But that's just me. Yeah, yeah, it's I hear this

1066
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:02,719
so much. I hear this response so much from believers

1067
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,079
that you're sending yourself there. But I mean, you're sending

1068
00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:09,000
yourself there as much as you are sending yourself to

1069
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,800
the bottom of a lake with cement shoes, because the

1070
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,440
mafia has been, you know, shaking you down for money.

1071
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,920
I mean, it is literally the exact same situation. It

1072
00:49:18,039 --> 00:49:23,519
is completely analogous. And yet for some reason, this this

1073
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:29,239
is just a common a common interpretation and understanding amongst

1074
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,159
a lot of believers. And you know what, that's that's

1075
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,760
okay because we also I got I got one. Apparently

1076
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,440
the other day I was I was asking a caller, uh,

1077
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,639
if they would believe if Allah spoke directly to them

1078
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,159
and they were a good they were a good Muslim

1079
00:49:46,199 --> 00:49:48,199
and said, no, of course not all. That doesn't do

1080
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,280
that to anybody since my yeah, I have good, good

1081
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,000
for them staying within the fold of Islam, staying within

1082
00:49:55,039 --> 00:49:59,480
the oma there brother. But in response to that, we

1083
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:02,480
got this, this beautiful gem of a comment, which honestly

1084
00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:06,760
might completely change my whole world view. They said, I

1085
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,920
hope you guys enjoy Hell. So cool, great, can't wait

1086
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:11,920
to be there, like super excited, you know.

1087
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 3: They said, that's that's I hope you enjoy Hell. I

1088
00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:20,400
have my screen like this big, that's all the camera.

1089
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,840
But yeah, I was like, that's it, that's it.

1090
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: That's all just easy, peasy, simple, just burning Hell, which

1091
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,280
you know, I don't know. I just keep I just

1092
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,199
keep referencing. What's that what's that verse about Jesus saying

1093
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,400
get away from me? I never knew you. That's I

1094
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,719
just keep trying to quote that every so often at

1095
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,000
the I was thinking of I was thinking of get

1096
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:49,920
back Sitan. Yeah, that's a good one. Relaxed, bro, It's okay. Yeah,

1097
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,480
that's really funny. It's really funny.

1098
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 3: And like Mark is like gone crazy and his family

1099
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:56,800
is like trying to take him.

1100
00:50:56,639 --> 00:50:58,519
Speaker 1: Out of like the public eye and stuff like that.

1101
00:50:58,719 --> 00:50:59,400
Just so different.

1102
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 3: But it's all this same author like them, you know,

1103
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:05,320
and you know, harmonized, like Marianne says, yeah, yeah.

1104
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:10,079
Speaker 1: Or not, you know whatever. We have some other calls,

1105
00:51:10,119 --> 00:51:13,000
so I want to make sure we get to them.

1106
00:51:13,039 --> 00:51:16,280
We are going to go to Connecticut. We've got Rich

1107
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,960
he him pronouns is an atheist and got some questions

1108
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,679
for myself and j Mike. Well, that's what we're here for. Rich,

1109
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,280
you were on the show. What is up, hi, guys?

1110
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:32,039
Speaker 2: My reason for calling is recently I've been alerted to

1111
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:35,679
the Council of Nicea and it seems that this is

1112
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,760
where the whole Jesus bullshkits started. And I want to know,

1113
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,199
am I overlooking things?

1114
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,679
Speaker 10: Do I have it wrong?

1115
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: Why don't I hear this mention more often? Could you

1116
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,000
guys straighten me out and help me?

1117
00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 1: What do you what do you take the Council of Nicea.

1118
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,599
Speaker 2: To myself, Yeah, no, no, we want.

1119
00:51:56,519 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 3: To make sure that because I actually heard a lot

1120
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,800
of atheists kind of like, I'm sure secular has a

1121
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,280
lot more to say about this than to me.

1122
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: But what's your understanding.

1123
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,639
Speaker 3: I just kind of want to get a general understanding

1124
00:52:06,679 --> 00:52:09,840
of like what what was established at the Council of Nicea.

1125
00:52:10,039 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: Well, it seems to me that Constantine that religion was

1126
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,199
dividing the empire, so he wanted to get one religion

1127
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,480
in the whole, uh, in the in the whole council.

1128
00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:25,480
And he brought in all the bishop and he you know,

1129
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:29,559
he paid for their transportation there, and he set all

1130
00:52:29,599 --> 00:52:32,760
these guys up and he said, bring all your information,

1131
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,559
bring everything you got, and what we'll do is we'll

1132
00:52:35,559 --> 00:52:38,480
figure out we'll keep all the good stuff, we'll get

1133
00:52:38,599 --> 00:52:41,039
rid of all the bad stuff, and we'll call it

1134
00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:43,599
the book a book. And they took all of it,

1135
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:48,920
all the the the philosophy of the time, and they

1136
00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:52,639
you know, like people rising from the dead, and they

1137
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,000
used all the juicy stuff, you know, like the Virgin Mary,

1138
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,519
and they in corporate all this stuff to be you

1139
00:53:00,519 --> 00:53:04,079
you know, to proclaim that Jesus is God and he

1140
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,039
was real, and uh, you know, I think that I

1141
00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:10,280
think there was over three hundred bishops and the final

1142
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,199
count was like one hundred and fifty. Dude to, I mean,

1143
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,400
it was really But why don't I hear more of this? Mention?

1144
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: Is there a reason I can? I can at least

1145
00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:27,239
give give I don't know that I'm the expert or anything,

1146
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:34,239
Yeah for sure, but right, yeah, justin again all those

1147
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,239
scholars we were mentioning earlier. But you know, I think

1148
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,920
one of the reasons from the religious side, for instance,

1149
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:45,280
that you probably don't hear about it as much is

1150
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,480
because a lot more of the scholarly believers, a lot

1151
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:55,079
more of the individuals that have gone to Divinity school

1152
00:53:55,519 --> 00:53:59,559
and studied the history and so forth, those aren't the

1153
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:04,079
belief that are often being seen all over the internet.

1154
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 2: Right.

1155
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: It's the ones, interestingly enough that tend not to be

1156
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,960
as knowledgeable on things that yell and scream. They tend

1157
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:15,320
to get a little bit more traction. But there are

1158
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,639
some people that do talk about it, and for instance,

1159
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,360
like I'll just mention Sean McDowell is a is a

1160
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,239
Christian apologist, a fairly well known Christian apologist been doing

1161
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,800
it for a long time, as his father, you know,

1162
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,800
did as well his whole life. He's talked about the

1163
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,400
Council of Nicia for sure, you know, there there are

1164
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,920
a bunch of different individuals that have talked about it.

1165
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,159
But I do think a lot of the Christians, the

1166
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,039
self professed Christians, are not terribly knowledgeable on the history

1167
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:51,920
of their religion. And for good reason too. Write like,

1168
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,599
when I was a believer, we never talked about the

1169
00:54:54,639 --> 00:54:57,440
Council of Nicia because there was no point. It didn't

1170
00:54:57,519 --> 00:55:00,880
get it didn't get us to the concl illusion that

1171
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,679
the pastor was attempting to get us to. We did

1172
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,679
talk about like persecution of Christians by the Romans, which

1173
00:55:08,119 --> 00:55:12,119
is a real historical thing. We do have some documentation

1174
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,239
of it, but it's radically overblown, you know, because it

1175
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,599
pushes a specific narrative for the congregation and the and

1176
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:24,760
the pastor right on the non religious side. Why we

1177
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,840
don't talk about it as much is because I would

1178
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,920
I would probably say it's one of those things for

1179
00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:33,159
us on the on the atheist or non religious side,

1180
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:36,480
where we're like, yeah, I mean that's the you know,

1181
00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:39,599
they had that crap, so obviously it's not, you know,

1182
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,280
as true as they're making it sound. Just because I

1183
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,639
will just say, just before any philosopher out there starts

1184
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:51,719
wanting to yell at us, just because something like a

1185
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,960
council of a Nicea happens in a in a religion

1186
00:55:55,159 --> 00:55:58,320
does not necessarily mean that the religion is false in

1187
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,880
and of itself. It should make one skeptical, though, I

1188
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,760
would argue the priors there now are at this point

1189
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,239
where we should go, Huh, why.

1190
00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 6: The fuck would they have to do that? It was

1191
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,599
so obvious we never had that for like evolution or anything.

1192
00:56:10,639 --> 00:56:12,960
We never had that. It was like, it's just you know,

1193
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,440
the data is there. But I will I will just

1194
00:56:16,599 --> 00:56:17,360
end I will just.

1195
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,119
Speaker 1: End this this whole ramble rich by just saying, if

1196
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:23,679
you really want to go find some more stuff out

1197
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,840
there about the council of Nicea, there are definitely some

1198
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,920
some great, you know, places to go that that can

1199
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,480
give you that information. Off the top of my head

1200
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,800
right now, I don't know any scholar that like specializes

1201
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,920
in that that I can you know, pull pull out

1202
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,000
of my ass, but there are definitely a good few

1203
00:56:43,079 --> 00:56:45,039
that that could give you some more information on that.

1204
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 3: If you want, yeah, and Calin justin, Yeah, deconstruction zone

1205
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,320
is on, because that's that's there, Jim. I don't really

1206
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,079
like I like getting into some of the New Testament

1207
00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:56,920
scholarship stuff.

1208
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: I find that interesting.

1209
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,679
Speaker 3: So I got through like little phases getting like really

1210
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,679
into it, talking with people about it, and I kind

1211
00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:05,400
of bounce around different things to keep it fresh.

1212
00:57:05,559 --> 00:57:07,559
Speaker 1: I don't ever find myself bouncing to that.

1213
00:57:07,599 --> 00:57:10,039
Speaker 3: I mean, I do see people being like that, bringing

1214
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:13,000
up weird things about the trinity and stuff that seems confused,

1215
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:14,280
but yeah.

1216
00:57:14,119 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: I don't.

1217
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,559
Speaker 3: I don't like to talk about much because I think

1218
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:18,960
secular kind of said it in a really nice way,

1219
00:57:19,239 --> 00:57:21,400
which is like this isn't really like why a lot

1220
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,559
of people, really anybody believes like oh the counsel and

1221
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:25,800
I see I'm a devout Christian now, you know, so

1222
00:57:26,639 --> 00:57:29,280
I really am interested in the reasons why somebody believes,

1223
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:32,519
you know, like just to you know, imagine that not

1224
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,199
that no one knows anything. They just believe things and

1225
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:37,760
they have reasons that they give. Like Okay, if that's

1226
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,159
the world we live in, I still want to know

1227
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:42,320
about the reasons that people have right because they believe things.

1228
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,400
And I want to know why they hold those beliefs.

1229
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,519
That's all I think to me, at least in the

1230
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,920
dialectic of like you know why someone believes that? Really,

1231
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,679
just offer up the reasons and then you know, we

1232
00:57:51,719 --> 00:57:53,760
can we could adjudicate whether or not those are good

1233
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,280
reasons or not. It seems like today that's been a

1234
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,159
hard thing for people to want to do.

1235
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,519
Speaker 1: It can be. It's very I will to say rich

1236
00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:03,920
real quick. I just looked up I just tried to

1237
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,199
do a quick Google search and I didn't find a bunch.

1238
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,960
But there is a blog on on Bart Airman's website

1239
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,199
about the Council of Nicea and just having read some

1240
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,840
of his stuff in the past, he always is providing

1241
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,400
links and other places to go, so that could be

1242
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,639
a good jumping off point if you really want to

1243
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:24,239
delve further into that.

1244
00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 2: So is that good?

1245
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,079
Speaker 1: H E H R M A N Maybe two ends.

1246
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 3: But yeah, he's got some really nice lecture series. Uh,

1247
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:39,000
there's one that's like on somewhere on archive. I don't

1248
00:58:39,039 --> 00:58:41,440
know if I should be saying that at all. So

1249
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,039
look at look at the the Great Courses. I don't

1250
00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:46,079
know if they've changed their name.

1251
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: I remember well I don't know.

1252
00:58:47,719 --> 00:58:51,079
Speaker 3: I want well know, because it's on like archive dot

1253
00:58:51,199 --> 00:58:52,840
org somewhere, but I'm not. I don't want to give

1254
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,760
like the direct directions. I don't know if doctor Airman

1255
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,039
appreciates that, or if that's up there for you know,

1256
00:58:58,119 --> 00:59:00,400
like I want to know, I don't. I don't know

1257
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,199
the nature of why it's there and this whole section

1258
00:59:03,239 --> 00:59:07,199
out I would I would say, yeah, you know, if

1259
00:59:07,239 --> 00:59:10,920
it's interesting to you, you know, like there are platforms

1260
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,719
at which the money you spend is totally worth it,

1261
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,440
I will say that it will be totally worth it.

1262
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: Hopefully hopefully that helps.

1263
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 2: Rich Okay, gentlemen, I appreciate because I just I just

1264
00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:25,639
hope I wasn't going down a one way street the

1265
00:59:25,679 --> 00:59:28,039
wrong way, you know what I mean? Yeah, And I

1266
00:59:28,079 --> 00:59:32,239
hope I wasn't being damboozled. And so that's why I

1267
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,079
called it, because that you guys. I love the way

1268
00:59:35,159 --> 00:59:38,960
you guys present stuff. And I used to be a

1269
00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:42,639
believe I went to Catholic school. I even went to

1270
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,159
Catholic High school for two years until I found out

1271
00:59:46,159 --> 00:59:47,400
there were women, you know.

1272
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: I mean, believe me.

1273
00:59:49,599 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 7: You know.

1274
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: I went to good old Saint Mats and it beings

1275
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:57,760
on the Hudson, New York. All right, Yeah, thanks an.

1276
00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:01,039
Speaker 1: Awful lot about thank you so much. I'm gonna I'm

1277
01:00:01,039 --> 01:00:03,599
gonna drop you like a hot rock, but I'm gonna

1278
01:00:03,599 --> 01:00:07,239
say thank you again. Man, we appreciate you. Yeah. So

1279
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,079
I have a nice yeah, and I love the you know.

1280
01:00:11,159 --> 01:00:14,119
I I this can be tough for many of us

1281
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:18,159
to remember, and I understand why in a lot of ways.

1282
01:00:18,239 --> 01:00:21,679
But there are so so so many people out there

1283
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:26,079
of all types of backgrounds, all types of ages, all

1284
01:00:26,119 --> 01:00:30,079
types of places in life. And there I had a

1285
01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:33,760
conversation in person not more than a week ago with

1286
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,880
somebody who looked me dead in the face and they said, right.

1287
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,199
But somebody asked me this once, and I'd never heard

1288
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:45,360
this before. What if you're wrong? Elliott? And I went, oh, yeah,

1289
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,679
that's a fantastic question. There's actually this whole guy named

1290
01:00:48,719 --> 01:00:53,000
Blaize Pascal who wrote this whole explanation of the of

1291
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,320
kind of that question and stuff, and he gives answers

1292
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,079
and a bunch of people and they went, what do

1293
01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:01,000
you mean. My buddy Bill just asked me that what

1294
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:02,320
who Pascal?

1295
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:02,559
Speaker 3: What?

1296
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh yeah.

1297
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,719
Speaker 3: And I actually really important for like the decision theory and.

1298
01:01:08,039 --> 01:01:11,639
Speaker 1: Absolutely he's incredibly important, huge, yeah, a lot. I mean

1299
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:13,639
we don't ever get to talk about like his mathematical

1300
01:01:13,639 --> 01:01:14,320
work and stuff.

1301
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:15,239
Speaker 2: I feel like it.

1302
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 3: I feel like it sucks, like myself. And Pascal wasn't

1303
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:21,800
like a fucking idiot, this dude, it was. It was

1304
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,880
really really smart and the implement things that he came

1305
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,679
up with to this day regularly.

1306
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:27,639
Speaker 2: It's just good.

1307
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 3: Just wasn't a good argument, just like a girdle like girls,

1308
01:01:30,719 --> 01:01:34,639
uh or I think you pronounce it girdle, yes, yes,

1309
01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:37,719
called out for it, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, pounced

1310
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:41,599
but even like Grurles ontological, you know, not yeah, not

1311
01:01:41,639 --> 01:01:44,679
a great not not a successful argument by by my lights,

1312
01:01:44,719 --> 01:01:46,000
but but still brilliant.

1313
01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:48,679
Speaker 1: He's a he's a brilliant yeah, way smarter than I'll

1314
01:01:48,679 --> 01:01:53,239
ever be. Yeah yeah, yeah, super super cool and uh yeah,

1315
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,039
I just say, like, you know, it's always it's always

1316
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:58,199
great to remember that there are those people, and uh,

1317
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,840
we need to we need to make sure that we're

1318
01:02:01,119 --> 01:02:03,679
we're remembering that we were there too. You know, there

1319
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,639
was a time when neither of us had ever heard onto,

1320
01:02:06,719 --> 01:02:07,599
who's the what's it?

1321
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 9: You know?

1322
01:02:08,199 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: I mean come on, But we have some other really

1323
01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:15,760
cool calls lining up, So back to our sidebar. Just

1324
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,960
real fast. I realized that it's not my hair here,

1325
01:02:19,039 --> 01:02:20,119
it's my mustache.

1326
01:02:20,199 --> 01:02:22,239
Speaker 3: I wouldn't do a good job combing. And now it's

1327
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,840
like curling into my name left nostril.

1328
01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:29,039
Speaker 1: So it's been it's been like it's been like a

1329
01:02:29,159 --> 01:02:32,039
year or two since I grew grew out the beard.

1330
01:02:32,239 --> 01:02:34,719
And like normally I kind of I'll grow it out

1331
01:02:34,719 --> 01:02:36,360
for a little while and I'll like, you know, shave

1332
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,480
it off for a couple of years or whatever. And

1333
01:02:38,519 --> 01:02:40,960
so I'm getting back into this phase again, you know.

1334
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,079
And there's it's so different when when you've got facial

1335
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:46,360
hair and when you don't, you know, because yeah, I

1336
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,119
mean like there there are times when you know, I'll

1337
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:51,239
like wake up and I'll go look in the mirror

1338
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,280
and I've just got like this going on, you know,

1339
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,079
with some of my hairs, and I'm like, oh, yeah,

1340
01:02:55,119 --> 01:02:57,960
just grab a brush. Yeah nothing, grab a little grab

1341
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,559
a little beard. Oiler is fucking nothing. Oh my god,

1342
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,079
so strange, so strange, But thank thank goodness, nobody was

1343
01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:09,519
hearing that, and our wonderful crew put us in our

1344
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:12,840
little sidebar yes, we go back to the that's right,

1345
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,480
that's right, Hey, everybody, we're back. I don't know. I

1346
01:03:16,519 --> 01:03:18,559
don't think there's a single person that laughed at that.

1347
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:19,920
I think it's.

1348
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,039
Speaker 3: That's that's my like I always tell everyone, like when

1349
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:25,320
we went to Austin, like, I had such a blast.

1350
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,519
I'm looking forward to it because we are just so stupid,

1351
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:29,800
such a good time.

1352
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:35,119
Speaker 1: It's so fun. Oh well, we are gonna go to Pennsylvania.

1353
01:03:35,239 --> 01:03:38,480
We've got a theist watcher two one five he him

1354
01:03:38,599 --> 01:03:42,519
pronouns is answering our chat pole question. So that's great. Well,

1355
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:46,280
great watcher, you are on the atheist experience with secularity

1356
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,000
and j Mike, what have you got for us?

1357
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 7: Watches are good evening, gentlemen. It's good to speak with you. Yeah,

1358
01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:57,079
oh yeah, I'm answering the question on the pole. So

1359
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:03,719
I I would say life, love and goodness, life, the

1360
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,280
natural life as well as the eternal life would be

1361
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:09,960
like really for reasons that I believe in God, and

1362
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,599
there are all evidence for God for me, how.

1363
01:04:12,599 --> 01:04:16,119
Speaker 1: Is let's let's let's pick one of those. Let's proves

1364
01:04:16,239 --> 01:04:21,119
I'm just kidding. Sorry, Yeah, we're we're not gonna go that. No,

1365
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,239
let's let's go to love, Like, how does love prove

1366
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,320
that the particular God that you believe in exists? What

1367
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,480
what is it about love that gets us to that conclusion?

1368
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 7: Well, the scriptures that I believe in says God is loved,

1369
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,599
and when I experienced love, therefore I'm experiencing God. But

1370
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:41,159
you wouldn't.

1371
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: But you wouldn't accept if I had scriptures that said,

1372
01:04:45,039 --> 01:04:48,880
my God, not Watchers. God is love, and I experience love,

1373
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,320
therefore my God, not watchers God, exists. Right, you wouldn't

1374
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:52,840
accept that.

1375
01:04:53,159 --> 01:04:57,639
Speaker 7: Right, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

1376
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: Maybe, okay, totally totally fine here on the no, no, no, no, no,

1377
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,039
that's okay. Let me help you out here. I just

1378
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:06,079
happen to have this book real close to me here

1379
01:05:06,119 --> 01:05:08,639
it's the Bible, says so it's Dan McClellan's new book.

1380
01:05:08,719 --> 01:05:10,840
It literally just happens to be right next to me.

1381
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:16,320
But let's say, somewhere in this book it explicitly says,

1382
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:20,000
s R. Your God that you believe in is love

1383
01:05:20,199 --> 01:05:23,880
and it's not watchers God. And because you experience love,

1384
01:05:24,119 --> 01:05:26,960
your God's real and not watchers. When I say all

1385
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,199
that to you, do you accept that? Do you now

1386
01:05:29,239 --> 01:05:30,639
not believe in your God?

1387
01:05:31,039 --> 01:05:34,119
Speaker 7: No, I have to understand what the author is mean

1388
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:35,280
by what they're saying.

1389
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: We'd have to have more to do, you know, I mean,

1390
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,079
do you though? Do you really have to know anything

1391
01:05:40,159 --> 01:05:43,960
more than just what has been presented? Because on its face,

1392
01:05:44,039 --> 01:05:48,400
the argument is so bad that instantly you recognized, Hey,

1393
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:49,599
something's wrong here.

1394
01:05:49,719 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 3: Man.

1395
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: That sounds fucked up. I don't know what it is yet,

1396
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,400
but something about that sounds weird. And you're right. It's

1397
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,639
because the same reason that you wouldn't accept that claim

1398
01:05:59,679 --> 01:06:02,559
from me is the same reason that I can't accept

1399
01:06:02,559 --> 01:06:05,239
the claim from you. And if we're gonna be consistent,

1400
01:06:05,719 --> 01:06:07,559
neither of us should accept either claim.

1401
01:06:08,199 --> 01:06:10,559
Speaker 7: Let me ask you a question, Sorry, do you experience

1402
01:06:10,679 --> 01:06:11,559
love in your life?

1403
01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:12,039
Speaker 1: Totally?

1404
01:06:12,239 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: Well?

1405
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,559
Speaker 3: I mean we yeah, we experience love. It's fine.

1406
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 7: Experience.

1407
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,039
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sorry, I'm a little confused because like the

1408
01:06:20,079 --> 01:06:22,679
love thing I'm weird out by, Like, do you like

1409
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,519
hold like First Corinthians thirteen four to be true? Like

1410
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:27,880
love is patient, love is kind, love is not envy.

1411
01:06:28,199 --> 01:06:30,639
Love love does not post, love is not proud.

1412
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:35,239
Speaker 7: Absolutely okay, absolutely love is yeah, I embrace all right?

1413
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:37,719
Speaker 3: Right, all right, love is kind? Do you think it's

1414
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,320
kind to murder in like innocent infant children?

1415
01:06:41,519 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 7: Absolutely not.

1416
01:06:42,519 --> 01:06:45,079
Speaker 1: Okay, great, let's go come back to do it. We'll come,

1417
01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:46,679
we'll come. We'll come back to that. We'll come back

1418
01:06:46,719 --> 01:06:50,000
to that, all right. What about jealous love is love

1419
01:06:50,119 --> 01:06:52,000
is well? Yeah, we go with that one.

1420
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's go to that. I mean we can pick

1421
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:53,960
through all of these.

1422
01:06:54,199 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you keep going. You gotta you gotta get well,

1423
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:58,880
so let's start with the two.

1424
01:06:59,199 --> 01:07:01,599
Speaker 3: Love is not proud, right, so it doesn't have this

1425
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:06,480
inflated self importance notion going on, right, right? Yeah, God, okay,

1426
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:09,800
so assume with those two god waughters and malachite children

1427
01:07:10,159 --> 01:07:11,960
in First Samuel fifteen to three, and then on the

1428
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,960
second point he is saying, like the first just read

1429
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,719
the first commandment, there shall be no other gods before me.

1430
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,159
So so far, like if you think God is love,

1431
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:23,880
like if you hold that in conjunction with these things

1432
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:26,400
you do, well, I can just render an argument to

1433
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:28,039
you for like, I mean, I have to formalize that

1434
01:07:28,159 --> 01:07:30,159
or something. But it's just going to be the case

1435
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,159
that if God is like love and it turns out

1436
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,320
that love doesn't do these things like, it doesn't envy,

1437
01:07:36,679 --> 01:07:40,199
it's not you know, it's always kind, It isn't the

1438
01:07:40,199 --> 01:07:42,480
case that it's not proud, right, stuff like that.

1439
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: And then we show that God does those things, then.

1440
01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 3: God isn't love by your own notion of love, by

1441
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,760
your own lights, right, So I could just provide some

1442
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:51,800
type of internal critique on your own way.

1443
01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 7: Would you would you be right it? Would you be right?

1444
01:07:54,159 --> 01:07:57,039
Would you? Would you? Would you be right in your argument?

1445
01:07:57,119 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 2: Though?

1446
01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:58,199
Speaker 7: That's the question?

1447
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: Yes, based on your crime, Tia, that's what he's saying. Watch, yeah,

1448
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,159
hold up, hold up watching real quick. I'm hold what

1449
01:08:08,199 --> 01:08:10,159
i'ming on just a second. I'm just gonna mute you

1450
01:08:10,239 --> 01:08:11,880
for a second. I know there's a bit of a delay,

1451
01:08:12,679 --> 01:08:14,639
and I know and I know you're not trying to

1452
01:08:14,639 --> 01:08:18,600
talk over us. I don't know what Yeah, hold hold

1453
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,039
on to that, Okay. But what J Mike was just

1454
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:23,640
saying there, just because you asked, would you be right

1455
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,000
with that argument? What JA Mike was just saying there was,

1456
01:08:26,159 --> 01:08:29,760
if you accept this definition of love and you accept

1457
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,880
that God did these things based on the book that

1458
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:36,560
that talks about God, then by your own criteria, God

1459
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:40,920
cannot be equivalent to love because he does the things

1460
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,600
that are absolutely contradictory to it. And so by that

1461
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,960
I mean, yeah, one hundred percent J. Mike's right. If

1462
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:51,800
if one of the definitions of love is that it

1463
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,960
is not proud, and God says I am a boastful,

1464
01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:59,800
jealous God, I am proud, that is contrary to what

1465
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,880
it means to be love by your definition, I.

1466
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 3: Already have a formally valid argument. Good, good, go ahead,

1467
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,119
And so you could run it like this. You could

1468
01:09:08,199 --> 01:09:11,079
run premise one if God is If it's the case

1469
01:09:11,119 --> 01:09:16,520
that God is love, then God's then that love is embodied.

1470
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,399
In First Corinthians thirteen for four, it is not the

1471
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,319
case that that love is embodied or imbued. And First

1472
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:27,279
Corinthians thirteen four conclusion, therefore God is not love, right,

1473
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:29,560
And that's just going to be a valid modus Tolen's argument.

1474
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,119
It's going to be if P, then Q not Q,

1475
01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:31,840
therefore not P.

1476
01:09:32,079 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 1: So I'm going to bring you back in, Watcher. I

1477
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:34,960
know we've said a lot. We're going to give you

1478
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,000
a minute. You're going to hear a beep, and then

1479
01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:39,279
you are going to be back on. So go ahead, Watcher.

1480
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:41,520
Speaker 3: And it seems like you accepted all those premises, like

1481
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,640
you accepted the condition. You seem like you'd have to

1482
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,720
accept the conditional and you'd have to accept. Well, I

1483
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:48,760
guess the contentious premises whether or not you think that

1484
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:51,279
it's true or not that God embodies those, But it

1485
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:54,520
seems like you agreed with me that slaughtering a malachite

1486
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,439
for any innocent child is not the embodiment of love.

1487
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:00,439
So your only move there is to say that they

1488
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:01,479
weren't in a set.

1489
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:07,319
Speaker 7: I was explicitly challenging. I think I'm hearing everything you're

1490
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:10,119
saying and understanding it. But what I was challenging was

1491
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:12,680
your argument itself. In other words, the premise I do

1492
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,439
not agree with the premise that you're what you're putting for.

1493
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,399
Speaker 1: Which premise, the premise that that's not the case.

1494
01:10:19,199 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 7: That which is of you.

1495
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 1: In other words, well, yeah, I'm just trying to hold on.

1496
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 7: Coming to I don't agree. I don't.

1497
01:10:28,199 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's hold on.

1498
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:34,159
Speaker 3: That's different because you can look, you are rationally committed

1499
01:10:34,199 --> 01:10:36,520
to the conclusion if you accept the premises. So if

1500
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,520
you're just like, yeah, accept what you're saying and the

1501
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:40,880
like the premises, but I deny your conclusion well, it's

1502
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,960
a formally valid argument. So if you accept A B

1503
01:10:44,079 --> 01:10:45,279
and C, you're committed to D.

1504
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 2: Right.

1505
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:47,359
Speaker 1: That's like, there's no question about that.

1506
01:10:47,399 --> 01:10:51,239
Speaker 3: By the axioms of classical logic, right, and by the

1507
01:10:51,319 --> 01:10:54,479
rules of propositional logic, you are irrationally committed to.

1508
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 7: Disagreeing.

1509
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:58,399
Speaker 1: Presumably you're disagreeing.

1510
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 7: With premise to So I can't.

1511
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,279
Speaker 1: Which okay, yeah, Watcher, which premise?

1512
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:07,239
Speaker 7: Which premis go ahead and stay them so that we can.

1513
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,359
Speaker 3: If God is love then yeah, yeah, presumably it's not

1514
01:11:10,399 --> 01:11:13,760
this premise, right, premise one, if God, if God is love,

1515
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,119
then that love is imbued in first Corinthians thirteen four.

1516
01:11:18,319 --> 01:11:21,039
All right, you presumably accept that because you think all

1517
01:11:21,079 --> 01:11:23,520
the scripture is true. I'm just taking things that you said.

1518
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:25,960
Corinthians thirteen four is part of the scripture. It talks

1519
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:26,399
about love.

1520
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:27,039
Speaker 1: God is love.

1521
01:11:27,279 --> 01:11:31,159
Speaker 3: You accept the antecedent, which is if God is love,

1522
01:11:31,239 --> 01:11:34,119
and you accept the consequent right, those those things are true.

1523
01:11:34,119 --> 01:11:36,159
These are all this whole conditional statement's true to you?

1524
01:11:36,239 --> 01:11:37,319
Are you with us so far?

1525
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: Watcher? Do you accept that premise that Jay Mike just

1526
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:42,960
laid out that if God is loved, the word God.

1527
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,279
Speaker 7: Is love is the first God is Let me see

1528
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:48,119
if I if I'm understanding you correctly. The first premise

1529
01:11:48,199 --> 01:11:51,039
is God is love. The second premises that's in line

1530
01:11:51,119 --> 01:11:51,760
without no.

1531
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:52,399
Speaker 1: No, no.

1532
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 3: The first premise is a condition. The first premise is

1533
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,520
a conditional. Now, the first premise is a yeah, that's wrong.

1534
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:00,319
The first premise is a conditional statement if then right.

1535
01:12:00,359 --> 01:12:01,520
It's like an if then statement.

1536
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:03,520
Speaker 1: Right. So that's one premise.

1537
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:08,079
Speaker 3: If God is love, comma, then it's the case that

1538
01:12:08,079 --> 01:12:10,680
that love is imbued in First Corinthians, or that love

1539
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,119
is imbued in Corinthians thirteen.

1540
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: Four, right. And then the second premise is it's not

1541
01:12:16,039 --> 01:12:16,760
the case.

1542
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:18,159
Speaker 7: That I agree with that.

1543
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So you agree with the first one. Good, I

1544
01:12:21,239 --> 01:12:24,159
thought we would. Now the second one is exactly where J.

1545
01:12:24,279 --> 01:12:26,640
Mike was going into, which I think is where you

1546
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:30,760
have That's what the premise was. Yeah, okay, so what

1547
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,119
is that one? J Mike and then Watcher will talk

1548
01:12:33,159 --> 01:12:34,560
about why you disagree with this.

1549
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just yeah, so you're just negating the consequence.

1550
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:43,640
So you're it's not the case that that love is

1551
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,600
embodied in Corinthians thirteen four, right, So that the love

1552
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,279
that you say God imbues, right, because you agreed with

1553
01:12:51,359 --> 01:12:53,520
me that what is not love?

1554
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: Right.

1555
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 3: The support what's supporting the premise is that you agreed

1556
01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:00,000
with me that love, which is what God is, is

1557
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:04,399
not something that would be compatible with slaughtering infants, innocent infants, right,

1558
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:08,239
But in the scripture, God slaughters those infants, and so

1559
01:13:08,359 --> 01:13:12,720
it couldn't possibly imbue that love. And I'm sorry, I'm

1560
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,119
tripping up on the verse first Corinthians thirteen to four.

1561
01:13:15,159 --> 01:13:17,039
I believe we'll just say Corinthians for right now, just

1562
01:13:17,039 --> 01:13:19,479
make it easier so I don't keep something. Yeah, and

1563
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:21,960
so if that's the case, right, then you're gonna end

1564
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,079
up agreeing with that premise.

1565
01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:23,359
Speaker 1: Now.

1566
01:13:23,359 --> 01:13:25,199
Speaker 3: The way that you could get out of this is

1567
01:13:25,239 --> 01:13:28,640
by saying, well, look, I agree with you that that

1568
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:31,520
killing an innocent infants is wrong, but that's not what

1569
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,159
God was doing there, right, And then now I just

1570
01:13:34,239 --> 01:13:37,199
be curious on how it's not what's the symmetry breaker

1571
01:13:37,279 --> 01:13:41,199
between the Amalekite infants being innocent versus any other infant?

1572
01:13:41,279 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: Right?

1573
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,159
Speaker 3: What makes a baby not innocent? Because I can't, for

1574
01:13:45,199 --> 01:13:47,119
the life of me understand that that might not be

1575
01:13:47,159 --> 01:13:48,680
your position. But that's the only way I can see

1576
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:49,600
you trying to get out of it.

1577
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,159
Speaker 1: So let if I'm a real quick, real quick watcher,

1578
01:13:53,199 --> 01:13:55,760
I'm gonna give the the TLDR as best I can.

1579
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:58,960
That'd be great because I'm constructing an argument. You're doing great. No,

1580
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:00,600
it's great. No, it's great. You're on with this shit

1581
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,520
up on the five. People don't realize how tough that is.

1582
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:06,880
But so what Jamike is saying, we've already agreed that

1583
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,479
that God would have the properties exhibited in the Corinthians verse.

1584
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,479
And what Jamke is saying is that, in fact, based

1585
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:21,439
on the same book, God clearly demonstrates properties contrary to

1586
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:27,640
those listed in Corinthians. Therefore God can't be loved. What

1587
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:29,359
about that do you disagree with?

1588
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 7: When we're born into this world, we're already under the

1589
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,840
sentience of death, so any life that we received is

1590
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,359
actually the mercy of God being demonstrated.

1591
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,279
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter about mercy. It doesn't matter about that.

1592
01:14:50,399 --> 01:14:53,319
Now we could talk about how God's setting up that

1593
01:14:53,359 --> 01:14:56,680
whole system to begin with doesn't adhere to the criteria

1594
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,039
of love listened in Corinthians, but we don't even need

1595
01:14:59,079 --> 01:15:03,159
to go there. Walk sure, because instead of instead of

1596
01:15:03,239 --> 01:15:08,079
responding directly to the fact that, hey, look, we finally

1597
01:15:08,159 --> 01:15:11,520
have this criteria of what it means to be loved,

1598
01:15:12,239 --> 01:15:15,680
and we we see that not being exhibited by the

1599
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,600
character of God, that in and of itself should demonstrate

1600
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:25,520
that God cannot be equivalent to this conception. Maybe a

1601
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,479
different conception of love, but not this one. Is that fair?

1602
01:15:30,079 --> 01:15:33,600
Speaker 7: That's that's why love, That's why life is a demonstration.

1603
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:35,600
Speaker 1: Not only are we can move on, we can move

1604
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,079
on to anything else than just a second Watcher, but

1605
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:40,760
we have to drop this one. We can move on

1606
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:42,920
to life, we can move on to goodness, because I

1607
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,800
think those are fascinating reasons that you've given as well.

1608
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,560
But we chose love first. And it seems like, after

1609
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:53,359
going back and forth, after us really trying to wrestle

1610
01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:55,840
with this concept, you've got to let that one go.

1611
01:15:56,159 --> 01:15:58,000
And I just want to know, are you going to

1612
01:15:58,079 --> 01:16:01,199
drop that one? Can we move on to life? No

1613
01:16:01,239 --> 01:16:04,560
longer can love be one of these examples.

1614
01:16:04,239 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 7: Mark love is I would never let go of love.

1615
01:16:07,159 --> 01:16:08,600
That's the center of my seat.

1616
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,319
Speaker 1: Letting go of love as a reason to believe in

1617
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,039
God is what I'm saying. Watcher. You presented love as

1618
01:16:15,119 --> 01:16:18,039
a as a reason to believe in God. But by

1619
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:22,479
your own criteria, that can't be true because the character

1620
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:29,199
of God that you believe exists demonstrably exhibits the exact

1621
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:32,600
opposite behavior of what love would you have to let

1622
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:34,920
it go as a reason to believe in God. Life

1623
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,319
may be one, but it can't be this.

1624
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:39,359
Speaker 7: Disagree with you.

1625
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 1: That that's okay, you can, but I hope that you'll

1626
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:46,159
watch this back because all of the information that you've

1627
01:16:46,199 --> 01:16:50,720
given us today, you also agree is incorrect. And that's

1628
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,119
all J. Mike and I have done. We've just said

1629
01:16:53,119 --> 01:16:55,720
the words back to you and just said, okay, well,

1630
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,880
if that's what you believe, then this is the outcome.

1631
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,359
And you said, yeah, that's right, and we said right.

1632
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:04,319
So you can't believe that anymore, you know. But let's

1633
01:17:04,399 --> 01:17:05,479
do you want to do you want to move on

1634
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,439
to goodness or life? J Mike, We've got a couple

1635
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:08,920
of other calls, but do you want to move on

1636
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,920
to to one more before we let Watcher go? Well, well,

1637
01:17:13,039 --> 01:17:13,960
the goodness.

1638
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:19,039
Speaker 3: Will be like like kind of captured by the argument

1639
01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:21,439
that I'm running because like love is going to be

1640
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:23,600
this kind of normative notion of like it's going to

1641
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,319
be like this notion about like what should be done

1642
01:17:25,399 --> 01:17:27,159
or whatever, and I think the good I mean, obviously

1643
01:17:27,239 --> 01:17:29,239
not the same thing, but I could just run a

1644
01:17:29,319 --> 01:17:31,439
run like a parallel kind of argument to it, talking

1645
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:32,960
about the goodness and just being like, do you think

1646
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:33,760
that these things are good?

1647
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 5: So?

1648
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, I maybe we move on

1649
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:37,279
to the last thing.

1650
01:17:37,319 --> 01:17:39,319
Speaker 3: But I did want to ask, like, because I'm trying

1651
01:17:39,359 --> 01:17:41,239
to do this to ask just to support my own

1652
01:17:41,279 --> 01:17:45,640
premise here because I'm anticipating that he's going to reject P.

1653
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:48,239
Two for this reason, but I'm just interested. I want

1654
01:17:48,239 --> 01:17:50,479
to kind of get it archived on the internet forever.

1655
01:17:51,359 --> 01:17:54,279
So do you think that there's any case where slaughtering

1656
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:59,279
an infant like is justifiable? No? Okay, do you agree

1657
01:17:59,319 --> 01:18:02,920
that God's slow watered or commanded Let's let's be as

1658
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,600
charitible as we can. Do you think that anyone commanding

1659
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:11,760
the slaughtering of amlica or sorry, infant children, chill infant children, infants?

1660
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,439
Do you think that that is justifiable for any reason?

1661
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 1: Like, there's any situation.

1662
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:21,319
Speaker 7: Again, but I'll also add that we're in a context

1663
01:18:21,359 --> 01:18:24,199
that we must recognize, which is the judgment of God.

1664
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:27,079
Speaker 1: Well, I was asking for is there any context where

1665
01:18:27,079 --> 01:18:27,560
there's that?

1666
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:31,159
Speaker 3: And then but I asked for if the whole point

1667
01:18:31,159 --> 01:18:34,239
of me asking was is there any context where that's justifiable?

1668
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:35,720
And then you're like, we got to see it from

1669
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:37,479
this context. So you did this thing where you were like,

1670
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,800
I agree with you, but also I don't agree with you. Right,

1671
01:18:41,159 --> 01:18:42,119
That's what happened there.

1672
01:18:42,319 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 1: So just straightforward, Lee, I did.

1673
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:45,319
Speaker 3: I did.

1674
01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:46,159
Speaker 7: I'll admit that.

1675
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:49,359
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to do that to rag on you.

1676
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:51,239
I just want to understand your position, that's all. I

1677
01:18:51,279 --> 01:18:52,079
just want to be confused.

1678
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:54,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So.

1679
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,119
Speaker 3: Which which one is it? Just so I don't like strong.

1680
01:18:56,079 --> 01:18:59,520
Speaker 7: Better understand the better understanding is that? Okay, I guess

1681
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:01,960
I'm saying to my answer, then my answer is yes,

1682
01:19:02,159 --> 01:19:05,880
the justification is under the judgment of God, in which

1683
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:07,319
we are under Okay.

1684
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: No other context. But just to be clear, Watcher, no

1685
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,399
other context works. It's a no everywhere else except for

1686
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:17,560
this one case. Is that what you're saying? Yes, sir,

1687
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:18,840
I think that's a problem.

1688
01:19:19,119 --> 01:19:19,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1689
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:21,439
Speaker 3: I mean if anyone wants to use this, like you

1690
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:23,880
can just use this argument on people to see if

1691
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,600
like they'll because if they reject that premise, what they're

1692
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,840
going to have to do is make this appalling move

1693
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,960
where they'll have to justify the commanding of infants, right,

1694
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:35,119
and you can just kind of get it out of

1695
01:19:35,159 --> 01:19:36,800
them that way. But if anyone wants to steal that,

1696
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:38,920
go ahead, because like I was, I was hoping that

1697
01:19:39,239 --> 01:19:41,720
like for your own sake, you know, like if you

1698
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:43,960
want to be internally yeah, for your's like you say no,

1699
01:19:44,039 --> 01:19:45,760
but if what you want to do is be internally

1700
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:47,680
consistent and like, yeah, you can make that move.

1701
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:49,159
Speaker 1: But this argument.

1702
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:51,279
Speaker 3: Highlights to show that, Well, what you can't do is

1703
01:19:52,239 --> 01:19:55,039
hold love above my head as if it's anything I

1704
01:19:55,039 --> 01:19:56,880
should really give a shit about, because it turns out

1705
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,760
what's baked into your concept of love is commanding this

1706
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:01,439
and I just don't.

1707
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 1: I just don't possess that concept of love, my man.

1708
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,720
I just don't. Yeah, that is never that is never

1709
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:13,920
part of any conception of goodness, morality, love, any of that.

1710
01:20:14,199 --> 01:20:16,479
And it I think, you know, we could make the

1711
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,439
we could make the argument that it it undercuts the

1712
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:22,760
life example you've given. But I just real quick, watcher,

1713
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,880
want to go back to this moment, right, I just

1714
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:27,720
want to real quick, though, go back to this moment

1715
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,880
where J Mike asked you this question and he said, hey, look,

1716
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:35,039
is there any context whatsoever that this thing works? And

1717
01:20:35,079 --> 01:20:39,039
you went, well, yeah, there is this one and only

1718
01:20:39,159 --> 01:20:44,720
this one, and in every other context it absolutely cannot work.

1719
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:50,800
It fundamentally is impossible. There's there's this thing called special pleading.

1720
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,159
That's a really important understanding about how we construct arguments

1721
01:20:55,279 --> 01:20:59,159
right and what information is more likely to lead us

1722
01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:03,239
to reliably true outcomes. And if in the process of

1723
01:21:03,279 --> 01:21:07,399
our argument we have to do that exact thing, which

1724
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,960
is in every other context this isn't right, and not

1725
01:21:11,039 --> 01:21:15,319
only isn't, but it can't be right except for mine.

1726
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:16,239
Speaker 4: That's a problem.

1727
01:21:16,399 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 1: That's a bad. That's a bad, that's a poorly constructed argument,

1728
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:21,800
and you have to fix that part of it. It

1729
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:25,640
doesn't mean that your outcome is necessarily untrue, but it

1730
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:28,640
doesn't mean that we definitely can accept it just yet.

1731
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,800
And I think that would be something that would be helpful.

1732
01:21:32,079 --> 01:21:36,079
I think you can construct a better argument in this case.

1733
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:39,239
I have heard some of them, but I would also

1734
01:21:39,359 --> 01:21:41,840
argue the vast majority of those Christians that make a

1735
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,399
better argument about love being an example of God's existence

1736
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:48,479
and so forth. They don't believe in a hell, they

1737
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,279
don't believe in a literal six day creation. They sure

1738
01:21:51,319 --> 01:21:53,760
don't believe the earth is under ten thousand years old,

1739
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,960
and they definitely don't believe that LGBTQ people should be

1740
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:03,039
criminalized for who they are. So it just this wasn't

1741
01:22:03,119 --> 01:22:05,079
this wasn't a this wasn't a perfect argument.

1742
01:22:05,119 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 3: Watch right, Well, I don't want to point out something

1743
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,000
I think it's the most important.

1744
01:22:08,039 --> 01:22:09,159
Speaker 1: I don't want it to go miss and a watch.

1745
01:22:09,159 --> 01:22:10,640
I want you to be able to speak. But I

1746
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:11,239
want you like.

1747
01:22:11,199 --> 01:22:12,840
Speaker 3: If you watch, if you watch this back at all,

1748
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,800
I don't want you to force you to watch something back.

1749
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:16,640
I don't like watching myself back, so I don't really

1750
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:20,399
do it, but do I get it. But I want

1751
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,640
you to notice something that happened in this call, and

1752
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:25,880
which was when I asked you about that premise and

1753
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,239
whether or not you would reject that. And I was

1754
01:22:28,279 --> 01:22:29,760
trying to be charitable and make sure I wasn't straw

1755
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,840
manny So talked about the command commanding of slaughtering infants.

1756
01:22:33,359 --> 01:22:35,439
You did this move where you said, well, yeah, I

1757
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:39,159
guess I would have to say that that's justifiable, and

1758
01:22:39,279 --> 01:22:41,760
I think that's important. I'm like, I'm not a psychologist

1759
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,079
or anything like that, but I think the psychological component's

1760
01:22:44,079 --> 01:22:47,119
like very key to these discussions. It's like kind of

1761
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:50,239
this mirage to the philosophical stuff and whatnot that goes

1762
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:53,159
above it. But really like it sounded like it was like, well,

1763
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:55,640
in real time, you were thinking I could be wrong,

1764
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:57,600
but it seemed like you were thinking something like, well, shit,

1765
01:22:57,680 --> 01:22:59,600
if I go this way, then I accept this argument,

1766
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:01,720
and then is not love and that under that's an

1767
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:03,560
undercutting defeat for for my argument.

1768
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:05,520
Speaker 1: So I'm forced to say this.

1769
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,680
Speaker 3: Now, let's not worry about the psychological thing at the moment,

1770
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,399
but let's just notice what's happening that you have you

1771
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:13,199
when you're faced with something that I don't think you

1772
01:23:13,279 --> 01:23:15,880
really probably believe. I don't I could be wrong.

1773
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:16,560
Speaker 1: I don't know you.

1774
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:18,279
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to believe that you really think

1775
01:23:18,319 --> 01:23:20,960
that there's times where it's okay to justify to kill infants.

1776
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:22,720
It feels like you made that out of like a

1777
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,359
response move because you know that this would undercut your position.

1778
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,880
But then ask yourself internally, am I being honest with myself?

1779
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 2: Right?

1780
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,680
Speaker 3: Because you know, I now I'm just accepting some proposition

1781
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:37,600
because I have to right and that.

1782
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1783
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:39,840
Speaker 3: I just feel like that should be looked at inward

1784
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:44,760
a little bit more. But that's just my takeaway, and

1785
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:46,159
I could just be full of shit and you can

1786
01:23:46,159 --> 01:23:47,600
think I'm totally full of shit or whatever. I'm just

1787
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:49,680
giving you my opinion of what what I'm noticing.

1788
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:50,119
Speaker 1: And that's all.

1789
01:23:50,239 --> 01:23:52,079
Speaker 3: You sound like you're you'd be a good person to

1790
01:23:52,119 --> 01:23:54,439
talk to about this or like you know you you

1791
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,199
seem like you listen and respond, So I appreciate that,

1792
01:23:57,239 --> 01:23:59,119
but it's hard for me to believe you really believe

1793
01:23:59,199 --> 01:24:01,319
that and you aren't just doing that to kind of

1794
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:05,119
save save the argument that you have, do you think?

1795
01:24:05,159 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 1: Watcher?

1796
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,560
Speaker 7: Thank you, j Mike, thank you SR. It is really

1797
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,359
good talking to you. I want to respond by saying

1798
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:15,039
the special pleading that often come that often comes up

1799
01:24:15,119 --> 01:24:19,359
in a lot of these discussions on this platform directly

1800
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:23,359
correlate to the truth and the scriptures of the holiness

1801
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:26,239
or the set of heartness of God. In other words,

1802
01:24:26,239 --> 01:24:29,800
his holiness means they're there. That's what when we bring

1803
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,920
up things of his holiness, what immediately comes to the

1804
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:36,439
mind of most people is that's special pleading, which it is.

1805
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,239
In fact, it is special pleading, but the special pleading

1806
01:24:39,319 --> 01:24:43,800
is justified. It's called holiness.

1807
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: Hold up, Jmike, hold on because I know you want

1808
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,359
to get on that. But that sounds like that sounds

1809
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:53,520
like a perfect frickin' call to have in the future, Watcher.

1810
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:56,119
That sounds like an awesome, awesome call for us to

1811
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:59,119
have in the future and hash out. So thank you

1812
01:24:59,199 --> 01:25:01,960
so much for for calling us back today and and

1813
01:25:02,239 --> 01:25:04,239
uh ja Mike and I will be will be looking

1814
01:25:04,279 --> 01:25:07,840
forward to get in a chat with you about Yeah,

1815
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:09,520
I would let you go. I like I was like

1816
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:14,399
a dog on a chain you pulled to I had to.

1817
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:17,720
We've got we've got calls. We've got other calls. We've

1818
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,800
been going for like twenty minutes. No, it's coat, this

1819
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:21,359
is it's good.

1820
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 3: I actually have like a kind of a cut off

1821
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:25,520
today at seven. Anyways, this is perfect for me. I

1822
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:28,119
got to make a run. And uh I give maybe

1823
01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:29,520
Scott if you don't know how much time you have.

1824
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,640
But yeah, we got we got.

1825
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 1: We got messed Scott Dicky behind us. Yeah, yeah, we'll

1826
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:34,520
bring him on.

1827
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1828
01:25:35,079 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 3: Apologies to any callers if they wanted to specifically ask

1829
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,680
me anything, I to anticipate that's the case.

1830
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,720
Speaker 1: So hopefully that's not the case. But uh, I'll get

1831
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,039
out before I say the case any more times than

1832
01:25:46,039 --> 01:25:46,520
I need to.

1833
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:49,399
Speaker 3: You know, there's already Christian books that do that a

1834
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:50,880
lot that we're all familiar with.

1835
01:25:51,399 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 1: It is absolutely always a great time getting to hang

1836
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,439
out with you. You always have this wonderful perspective. I

1837
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,760
can't wait to be down in Boston, Texas with you.

1838
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 3: And I know too, I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

1839
01:26:03,239 --> 01:26:06,640
I really am. I I like I hope I message

1840
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:08,439
the other day, and I hope you know I mean

1841
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:09,479
everything of what I told.

1842
01:26:09,399 --> 01:26:12,359
Speaker 1: You, absolutely man, same here, same here, Brother, awesome and

1843
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,960
you and the audience will not get to hear what

1844
01:26:15,039 --> 01:26:20,720
that DM was, but it was. It was hot and spicy.

1845
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:24,159
Speaker 6: Get out of here, man, thank you so much for well.

1846
01:26:24,199 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 1: We have a couple of other calls we are gonna

1847
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:30,000
grab here. But before we do that, the amazing crew,

1848
01:26:30,279 --> 01:26:34,000
the always incredible, the closest thing we know to a

1849
01:26:34,119 --> 01:26:36,880
real live deity, the crew here at the A c A.

1850
01:26:37,199 --> 01:26:40,039
They are gonna bring up our back up host, the

1851
01:26:40,199 --> 01:26:44,920
wonderful mister Scott Dickey has been here hanging out with us,

1852
01:26:45,279 --> 01:26:47,960
and I think he might be ready. I don't know

1853
01:26:48,319 --> 01:26:50,840
just yet, but you know what, we're just gonna We're

1854
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:52,720
just gonna poke him in the ribs and wake him up.

1855
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,119
So is he up here?

1856
01:26:55,199 --> 01:26:55,279
Speaker 7: Is?

1857
01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:57,399
Speaker 1: I just see my dumb face still there?

1858
01:26:57,439 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 2: He is?

1859
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,840
Speaker 1: What's up? I'm hey, it's great to see you.

1860
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:01,119
Speaker 2: Man.

1861
01:27:01,399 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 4: I don't I can't really quite fit fill the beard,

1862
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:05,079
but I'll do my best.

1863
01:27:05,279 --> 01:27:07,399
Speaker 1: No, it's is. This has been This has been great.

1864
01:27:07,399 --> 01:27:10,680
There's been a lot of hair today and that's that's

1865
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:13,399
what we want here on the ACA. You know we're

1866
01:27:13,119 --> 01:27:15,760
we're big about facial hair. Actually, you've heard.

1867
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:18,600
Speaker 4: About hair bands, right this this is a hair show.

1868
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,399
Speaker 1: That's a hair show. Yeah, a hair show. Wasn't there

1869
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:24,319
a musical that was just named hair? Is that thing?

1870
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:25,520
Speaker 4: Am I just on that?

1871
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:26,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1872
01:27:27,399 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 4: Anyway, we were just watching it.

1873
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:34,159
Speaker 1: Actually, we have some other calls. We are going to

1874
01:27:34,199 --> 01:27:39,720
go to California. Lord is an atheist and he him pronouns,

1875
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,960
wants to talk about a logical moral framework. Well, hey Lord,

1876
01:27:43,039 --> 01:27:46,239
you are on the atheist experience with Scott Dickey and secularity.

1877
01:27:46,279 --> 01:27:47,000
What is up?

1878
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:47,359
Speaker 2: Hi?

1879
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:47,720
Speaker 5: There?

1880
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 10: It's so good to find to talk to you guys.

1881
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, hey, Lord, talk to you.

1882
01:27:52,319 --> 01:27:52,520
Speaker 6: Hey.

1883
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:52,760
Speaker 7: There.

1884
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 10: So I was working on this like secular moral framework

1885
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:59,279
that I'm calling compression logic, and I wanted to bring

1886
01:27:59,279 --> 01:28:01,079
it to you guys. See if it's not you know,

1887
01:28:01,319 --> 01:28:03,199
just my own echo chamber telling me it works.

1888
01:28:03,399 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 1: We'll do the best we can give us.

1889
01:28:06,119 --> 01:28:09,319
Speaker 5: Well, it's a yeah. So the definition of compression logic

1890
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:14,319
is a system that ethically removes contradictions from structures, which

1891
01:28:14,399 --> 01:28:18,439
is religion, economic, government's relationships, everything. It forces you to

1892
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:22,000
critically look at contradictions and make them align with your

1893
01:28:22,039 --> 01:28:23,520
intentions or remove them.

1894
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:25,840
Speaker 4: All right, you've piqued my interest.

1895
01:28:26,159 --> 01:28:29,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't currently see yeah.

1896
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1897
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,239
Speaker 10: And so the moral aspect of it is that yet

1898
01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:36,760
to consider, like suffering. Does the system reduce suffering? Recognition?

1899
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:41,720
Does it recognize all variables involved? Existence? Does it preserve

1900
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:48,199
existence or remove it? And mobility? Is it able to grow, learn, change, revolve.

1901
01:28:48,399 --> 01:28:51,039
Speaker 1: Sure, So let me jump in real quick, because I'll

1902
01:28:51,119 --> 01:28:53,840
just start off by saying, so far from what I've heard,

1903
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:55,520
there's a lot of this that I'm.

1904
01:28:55,359 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 5: A fan of.

1905
01:28:56,119 --> 01:28:58,279
Speaker 1: You know, I kind of feel like I get the

1906
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:00,760
intention and I kind of feel like I get, you know,

1907
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:04,680
where the logical conclusions might lead to, and im and

1908
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:07,239
I'm already kind of on board, right, But the first

1909
01:29:07,279 --> 01:29:10,479
thing that jumps out to me is, you know, from

1910
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:14,720
the moral realist side, which are the individuals out there

1911
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:19,600
who believe that there are actual, like moral facts out

1912
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:22,880
there just like there is you know, uh, you know

1913
01:29:23,039 --> 01:29:25,680
answers to the question two plus two, like there is

1914
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:29,119
an answer to it and all the other answers are wrong.

1915
01:29:29,319 --> 01:29:32,960
You know, those people would probably jump in and say, well,

1916
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:37,159
hey lord, why would I care about suffering? You know,

1917
01:29:37,199 --> 01:29:40,680
why would I actually care about recognition or mobility?

1918
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 7: Why?

1919
01:29:41,199 --> 01:29:42,840
Speaker 1: What's what's the basis of that?

1920
01:29:43,319 --> 01:29:49,319
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly, because when systems contain contradictions, the experience collapse. Okay,

1921
01:29:49,359 --> 01:29:52,520
and so when any of these moral bases are violated,

1922
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:54,159
collapse is inevitable.

1923
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:56,399
Speaker 4: So are you saying that if there if if a

1924
01:29:56,479 --> 01:30:00,760
moral for example, then it would it would be contradictory.

1925
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,119
What I'm not really following you there?

1926
01:30:03,199 --> 01:30:03,399
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1927
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:05,840
Speaker 4: How how is that an example of the contrad.

1928
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:07,279
Speaker 10: So what I'm saying is, if you have a moral

1929
01:30:07,359 --> 01:30:11,239
system that increases suffering, sorry, if you have a system

1930
01:30:11,359 --> 01:30:15,159
that increases suffering over time, it will experience collapse. I

1931
01:30:15,199 --> 01:30:18,159
don't know what it is to reduce suffering or mitigate it.

1932
01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:20,840
You can't eliminate it, right, What I mean by that? So, like,

1933
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:23,359
for example, I mean, if we're talking about like religions,

1934
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:26,760
right where religions ask you to love one another, you know,

1935
01:30:27,239 --> 01:30:29,520
and you know, worship God and things like that, and

1936
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:33,119
you find out the religion continuously, you know, it encourages

1937
01:30:33,279 --> 01:30:36,439
hateful actions against marginalized groups and things like that, and

1938
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:38,680
you can already tell that this type of religion will

1939
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,359
not last in its current form. It must change or

1940
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:42,079
be destroyed.

1941
01:30:42,279 --> 01:30:43,239
Speaker 4: And why is that?

1942
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, what justification do we have for that?

1943
01:30:46,239 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 10: Because of collapse, because a contradiction potentially collapsed.

1944
01:30:52,199 --> 01:30:54,520
Speaker 1: Like what like name a system that has a contradiction

1945
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:57,479
that has collapsed. Would you say Hinduism has collapsed?

1946
01:30:58,119 --> 01:31:01,079
Speaker 10: I would say, like, I haven't said Hinduism is enough

1947
01:31:01,159 --> 01:31:03,439
to know that if it has reformed. But I would say,

1948
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:07,680
like Protestantism in America has certainly reformed to avoid collapse.

1949
01:31:08,159 --> 01:31:10,520
Speaker 1: Right. But but so what we need is we need

1950
01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:15,319
an example of a system that definitively has contradictions in

1951
01:31:15,399 --> 01:31:18,119
it that all three of us agree or contradictions and

1952
01:31:18,399 --> 01:31:22,760
then the definitive example of the collapse of that system,

1953
01:31:23,039 --> 01:31:25,039
because because right now one of the things that I

1954
01:31:25,079 --> 01:31:29,640
think Scott and I are both we're kind of bristling. Okay, okay, okay,

1955
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:30,359
go ahead.

1956
01:31:30,199 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 10: So I see what you're saying. So we can take

1957
01:31:32,079 --> 01:31:36,520
like American Revolution for example, where Americans under British rule,

1958
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:39,640
we're not getting fair representation, you know, for taxes and

1959
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:41,880
things like that, and they were getting abused by the

1960
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,119
colonial system. And so the collapse was the revolution and

1961
01:31:45,199 --> 01:31:48,359
America restructured into you know, the United States that we

1962
01:31:48,399 --> 01:31:52,720
have today. The colony is searching colony, right, collapse because

1963
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:53,479
of its contradiction.

1964
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 1: What what collapsed though? Are you just talking about.

1965
01:31:56,439 --> 01:31:58,239
Speaker 10: Day of the British in America?

1966
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:02,039
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, sorry, the authority of.

1967
01:32:02,039 --> 01:32:05,560
Speaker 10: The British rule in their system. Yeah, and what was

1968
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,479
the contradiction, Like, let's I can try and break it

1969
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:11,960
down even simpler. Well, the contradiction is that they were

1970
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,000
promised to have representation.

1971
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 1: Okay, and they and they weren't getting it. Okay, break

1972
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:17,840
break it down a little simpler for it.

1973
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:21,159
Speaker 10: When they did not receive representation. Yeah, let me break

1974
01:32:21,199 --> 01:32:23,039
it down let's go down simple as like to a lie.

1975
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,319
Like imagine that you lie to your friend about why

1976
01:32:26,399 --> 01:32:28,880
you didn't want to go see him that day, and

1977
01:32:29,239 --> 01:32:31,600
he finds out that you have lied to him. Now

1978
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:34,039
your system is going to collapse because in order for

1979
01:32:34,079 --> 01:32:36,600
you to maintain the friendship, you must address the lie

1980
01:32:37,119 --> 01:32:38,640
or not be friends anymore.

1981
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:41,399
Speaker 4: So are you saying that that that a contradiction? Really

1982
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:43,000
is just a failed promise.

1983
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,239
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's a violation of any social contract. It's a

1984
01:32:46,359 --> 01:32:48,000
violation of intention and action.

1985
01:32:48,279 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 4: Okay, So you commit, you make a commitment to do

1986
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:54,319
something to honor representation or something along the or or

1987
01:32:54,399 --> 01:32:57,359
to decrease suffering or something like that, and then if

1988
01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,319
if there's no follow through on that, then you're that

1989
01:33:00,399 --> 01:33:01,000
a contradiction.

1990
01:33:01,319 --> 01:33:02,319
Speaker 10: It's a contradiction.

1991
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:05,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, So basically you're saying that systems that lie to

1992
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:10,439
people will eventually be caught and discarded exactly or reformed.

1993
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:16,199
Speaker 1: Okay, So are you familiar with immanual? In just second,

1994
01:33:16,279 --> 01:33:17,840
I know there's I know there's a bit of delay.

1995
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,239
I know you weren't trying to interrupt or anything. It's joke,

1996
01:33:20,279 --> 01:33:22,520
don't worry. It's the it's the audio stuff, not the

1997
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:25,800
tech people. By the way, it's literally just the machines themselves.

1998
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,800
Our tech crew is fucking amazing. I'm only saying that

1999
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:31,439
so they don't yell at me this time anyway. So okay,

2000
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,680
so are you are you familiar lord? Are you familiar

2001
01:33:35,039 --> 01:33:38,680
with the categorical imperative that Emmanuel Kant talked about?

2002
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:44,560
Speaker 10: I personally haven't say any of Kant's writing. Okay, I'll

2003
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:47,319
discuss on this show. Yeah, yeah, if it could be

2004
01:33:47,399 --> 01:33:49,880
similar enough that my framework just discarded.

2005
01:33:50,279 --> 01:33:54,359
Speaker 1: Well, but potentially potentially I don't know yet, but there

2006
01:33:54,399 --> 01:33:56,920
were some things when you were talking about the lie

2007
01:33:57,119 --> 01:34:01,199
there that that definitely, you know, brought me, brought me

2008
01:34:01,319 --> 01:34:05,560
back to young little SR sitting around kicking his feet

2009
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:10,640
as he gleefully reads Immanual Coant's musings. There is some

2010
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:14,920
really good stuff in there. It's called the categorical imperative.

2011
01:34:15,199 --> 01:34:18,359
That's the that's the concept I think you'll you'll want

2012
01:34:18,399 --> 01:34:21,439
to kind of try and look into and maybe even

2013
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:25,000
all the way back to Plato and the Noble Lie.

2014
01:34:26,199 --> 01:34:28,079
Don't worry about like writing those down or anything. This

2015
01:34:28,119 --> 01:34:29,560
will be recorded, you know, you can go back and

2016
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:32,119
check all that shit. But one of the things I

2017
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:35,600
definitely want to offer you to read if you do

2018
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:39,920
decide to go look more into Kant is look up

2019
01:34:40,159 --> 01:34:43,239
the personal letters that he sent with a woman named

2020
01:34:43,479 --> 01:34:46,399
Maria van Herbert, and you can literally find them just

2021
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:50,520
by searching her name Maria von Herbert Kant letters. Because

2022
01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:55,239
this is an individual that studied Kant so profusely that

2023
01:34:55,399 --> 01:35:00,199
she was willing to completely destroy her own life to

2024
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:03,319
follow through on the axioms that he presented. And I

2025
01:35:03,399 --> 01:35:06,319
think it's it's a really fascinating moment where you can

2026
01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:10,520
see kind of some of the problems of this type

2027
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:15,720
of categorical imperative, how that would play out in the

2028
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,199
tangible world around us right now. There is also some

2029
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,560
really good explanation of how Kant gets to these things too,

2030
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,039
But I just I think that that might help flesh

2031
01:35:26,119 --> 01:35:29,680
this out a little bit and maybe even and again,

2032
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:31,560
I know I'm throwing a shit ton at you. It's

2033
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:33,520
great because you'll just be able to pause a video

2034
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:37,159
and just like, what the fuck was that. Constructivism is

2035
01:35:37,239 --> 01:35:42,039
another really fascinating moral moral concept here that might be

2036
01:35:42,159 --> 01:35:47,199
beneficial for you. It it talks more about how morality

2037
01:35:47,399 --> 01:35:51,239
is this thing that we construct, right It's not really

2038
01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:55,319
a thing that's out there. Definitely not in the same

2039
01:35:55,399 --> 01:35:58,159
sense as like hydrogen atoms, and not even really in

2040
01:35:58,239 --> 01:36:03,000
the same sense as like math or love. Right, morality

2041
01:36:03,159 --> 01:36:06,439
is even more of this constructed thing. And there's a

2042
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:08,520
lot of really cool people that talk about how we

2043
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:11,039
would construct that or why we would construct that a

2044
01:36:11,119 --> 01:36:15,279
certain way. All of that stuff might help kind of

2045
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:19,399
shoring up a lot of these different a lot of

2046
01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:22,720
these different places in your theory that you're working on.

2047
01:36:23,359 --> 01:36:25,760
I would say there's still also some some issues with

2048
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:30,039
constructivism too, you know. And and the more that you

2049
01:36:30,239 --> 01:36:34,399
dive into this this realm, the deeper you get, Lord,

2050
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:38,239
I promise you, it'll get fucking frustrating after a moment.

2051
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,319
So so make sure that you take a little bit

2052
01:36:41,359 --> 01:36:43,880
of time and you put the book down every so often,

2053
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:45,800
and you come back to it and go, Okay, what

2054
01:36:46,159 --> 01:36:48,399
was what was he trying to say? What's Derek Parfitt

2055
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:49,279
trying to tell me here?

2056
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:49,600
Speaker 2: You know?

2057
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:54,880
Speaker 1: But anyway, I hope some of that rambling was a

2058
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:56,079
resource or two for you.

2059
01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,039
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, no, that's great. I had like big we

2060
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:03,319
looked at some stuff like on Kant and so I

2061
01:37:03,399 --> 01:37:06,079
didn't really exhorb a lot of his ideas and stuff

2062
01:37:06,079 --> 01:37:06,239
like that.

2063
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 1: I was just dora that.

2064
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,319
Speaker 10: Somebody else already thought of this and that my framework

2065
01:37:10,399 --> 01:37:10,960
is irrelevant.

2066
01:37:11,119 --> 01:37:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it might be. It might be. I don't

2067
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:17,159
know just yet. But one of the things that I

2068
01:37:17,239 --> 01:37:20,479
would say that comes up to me right away is

2069
01:37:21,199 --> 01:37:24,000
the conversation that's been going on for a very long

2070
01:37:24,079 --> 01:37:27,960
time between moral realists and moral anti realists. And again,

2071
01:37:28,079 --> 01:37:30,600
that's that distinction between those people that say, like, no,

2072
01:37:30,720 --> 01:37:33,960
there actually are moral laws and facts out there, and

2073
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,000
then there's these other people and they're broken up into

2074
01:37:36,039 --> 01:37:38,000
a lot of different camps. By the way, there's this

2075
01:37:38,239 --> 01:37:41,119
whole group of people that have been studying this stuff

2076
01:37:41,159 --> 01:37:44,000
for a really long time, and their view is that really,

2077
01:37:44,119 --> 01:37:48,399
at the end of the day, morality is basically just

2078
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:52,640
us saying like, Yay, we like that thing, or boo,

2079
01:37:53,159 --> 01:37:56,199
we don't like that thing. And emotivism is a really

2080
01:37:56,359 --> 01:37:59,840
interesting concept, you know. I also think there's a little

2081
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:03,079
bit of flaws there. I don't think we have the

2082
01:38:03,279 --> 01:38:07,560
perfect moral framework just yet, but I do think if

2083
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:12,399
we're being honest when we do this investigation, we come

2084
01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:16,880
to a much more humble place about what is good

2085
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:20,840
or bad about why we would choose certain actions, how

2086
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:25,640
we justify various actions, and you tend to not always,

2087
01:38:26,039 --> 01:38:30,319
but you tend to be a little bit more charitable

2088
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:33,760
and willing to listen to the other side. And you

2089
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:37,119
know that's my that's been my experience seeing people go

2090
01:38:37,279 --> 01:38:40,560
down this route. And honestly, I think you're going down

2091
01:38:40,600 --> 01:38:44,079
the exact right path. Lord, keep having these thoughts, write

2092
01:38:44,119 --> 01:38:47,560
them out, you know, change this, change that. Bring it

2093
01:38:47,640 --> 01:38:49,960
to somebody, let them take a look at it. Change

2094
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:53,319
them again. Go out read some cont go out read

2095
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:57,239
some mills, go out read some I mean, go look

2096
01:38:57,319 --> 01:39:00,279
into all of this, and keep formulating this and and

2097
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,439
and don't stop. You know, I want to pass it

2098
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:05,279
back over to Scott, because I know I've been I've

2099
01:39:05,279 --> 01:39:06,479
been rambling a bunch.

2100
01:39:06,319 --> 01:39:07,880
Speaker 4: But I was gonna say, my my back is a

2101
01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:12,439
little sore from carrying the show. So it's about telling you,

2102
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:15,479
you know, pick up the slack there, sir. No, Lord,

2103
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,439
I I I I I might be missing something here,

2104
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:21,239
but but I just wanted to dive a little bit

2105
01:39:21,319 --> 01:39:24,920
into what you were saying. So you're suggesting that uh

2106
01:39:25,199 --> 01:39:28,800
moral framework will will fail if it doesn't live up

2107
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:31,720
to its commitments and promises, and that's that's fine. I

2108
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:34,359
think that's that's pretty obvious. You also said that you

2109
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:36,880
were worried that maybe somebody else had thought of this.

2110
01:39:37,079 --> 01:39:39,760
What what is the what is the unique spin uh

2111
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:42,000
that you're bringing to the table here are you? Are

2112
01:39:42,039 --> 01:39:46,279
you suggesting that that people don't worry about that now,

2113
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:51,000
or that current perspectives on morality don't include that?

2114
01:39:51,399 --> 01:39:54,119
Speaker 10: Well, I was mainly thinking like that, the point of

2115
01:39:54,279 --> 01:39:57,680
this compression logic is to avoid collapse, not that like

2116
01:39:57,880 --> 01:40:02,920
collapse itself is evil. It's what happens when systems contain contradiction.

2117
01:40:03,239 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 4: Okay, so as long as as long as somebody follows.

2118
01:40:06,359 --> 01:40:09,079
Speaker 10: Through with what they suggest place properly.

2119
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:11,760
Speaker 4: Sorry you finished, you finish? I interrupted you?

2120
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:14,720
Speaker 10: That is is, if you follow through and your intentions

2121
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:17,359
are aligned. No, it's okay. If you follow through and

2122
01:40:17,399 --> 01:40:20,680
your attentions are aligned and it includes genocide, then it's

2123
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:22,680
not moral, right, But what.

2124
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 4: If you promised genocide and then followed through with it?

2125
01:40:26,279 --> 01:40:28,640
Or what what if you promised to bring in suffering

2126
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:31,079
and then follow through with that? I mean, that would

2127
01:40:31,119 --> 01:40:34,560
avoid this this uh contradiction that you're talking about, and

2128
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:35,279
therefore this.

2129
01:40:35,399 --> 01:40:38,319
Speaker 1: Collapse, repeat, repeat that again, Scott.

2130
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:40,800
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, if you have a moral framework that

2131
01:40:41,039 --> 01:40:45,920
promises genocide and then does commit genocide, I mean we could,

2132
01:40:46,039 --> 01:40:48,359
of course, I think we would agree that that's a

2133
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:50,680
that's a bad thing, and that's an immoral thing, but

2134
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:53,640
that's not what your framework is describing at this At

2135
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,079
this point, you're you know, if we're just looking at

2136
01:40:56,119 --> 01:40:59,600
this this idea of these contradictions. If you promise something,

2137
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:02,359
if you promise to I will bring suffering upon you,

2138
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:05,399
and then you do that, then you're following, then you're

2139
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:07,479
that's not a contradiction, correct.

2140
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly. And so what I'm saying is that suffering

2141
01:41:11,039 --> 01:41:14,039
must be reduced. That's what makes it moral. People must

2142
01:41:14,119 --> 01:41:17,520
be recognized, mobility must be allowed. And so when you

2143
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:19,880
have a system that says we will commit genocide and

2144
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:22,920
they fall on through the genocide, it's still immral because

2145
01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:25,279
the people they genocide it were not recognized and they

2146
01:41:25,319 --> 01:41:27,279
were and they were experiencing increased suffering.

2147
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:32,039
Speaker 4: So you're saying that morality is if it's okay to

2148
01:41:32,359 --> 01:41:35,439
have a contradiction as long as you're not committing suffering,

2149
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:41,199
which I agree with you. I agree that that encouraging

2150
01:41:41,279 --> 01:41:44,359
suffering is immral. No, But the way you're describing your

2151
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:47,640
scenario here, you're kind of slipping that in there.

2152
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:49,520
Speaker 10: Well, I'm saying that if you have a system that

2153
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:52,680
contains genocide and wants to be moral, then you have

2154
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:53,840
to remove the genocide.

2155
01:41:54,039 --> 01:41:55,399
Speaker 4: So what do you mean by moral?

2156
01:41:55,399 --> 01:41:55,520
Speaker 1: Then?

2157
01:41:55,560 --> 01:41:58,239
Speaker 4: Sorry, s R the last question and then I'll shut up.

2158
01:41:58,399 --> 01:41:59,399
What do you mean by moral?

2159
01:42:00,039 --> 01:42:02,119
Speaker 10: Yeah, so I'm talking about like what I'm calling the

2160
01:42:02,159 --> 01:42:06,800
for moral basis, which is suffering, existence, recognition, and mobility.

2161
01:42:07,079 --> 01:42:11,079
If a system violates these four things, then collapse is inevitable.

2162
01:42:11,199 --> 01:42:16,279
So if a system increases suffering, the denies recognition, eliminates existence,

2163
01:42:16,399 --> 01:42:20,279
and denies mobility, then the people in that system will collapse.

2164
01:42:20,399 --> 01:42:23,560
The whole system, the ideal ideology will collapse. And so

2165
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:27,680
what I'm proposing is collapse avoidance, which is giving people recognition,

2166
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:31,319
preventing suffering, or mitigating it. Right, That's what begins to

2167
01:42:31,399 --> 01:42:34,399
make the system moral, and it starts with contradiction removal.

2168
01:42:34,560 --> 01:42:37,680
So you can't do genocide because you're going to remove

2169
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:41,960
people's recognition, mobility, suffer cause suffering and existence.

2170
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:43,159
Speaker 4: Sounds a lot like humanism to me.

2171
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, there is definitely a good a

2172
01:42:45,920 --> 01:42:48,800
good overlap there, but one one question. And I know

2173
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:51,920
it might it might sound stupid. I know it kind

2174
01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:56,119
of does. But truly, I mean, lord, why would we

2175
01:42:56,239 --> 01:42:59,560
care about minimizing suffering? I mean, really, what's the reason

2176
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:00,640
why it is?

2177
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2178
01:43:01,079 --> 01:43:02,079
Speaker 1: What what's the purpose?

2179
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 10: Well, the reason is just the reason is just collapse

2180
01:43:06,039 --> 01:43:10,600
avoidance for mitigation. Okay, okay, okay, you want to avoid collapse.

2181
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:13,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so hang on, So let's not Yeah, yeah, let's

2182
01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:17,399
take this. Let's take this. Let's take that. Okay, collapse avoidance.

2183
01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:20,760
That that is a terminology there that I would need

2184
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:24,920
more information about, because currently, if somebody comes up to

2185
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:27,960
me and says, hey, sr, you want to minimize that

2186
01:43:28,039 --> 01:43:31,399
suffering so that you avoid collapse, I would say, uh,

2187
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:34,880
what do you mean like collapse of the human race?

2188
01:43:35,279 --> 01:43:37,760
Do you mean like somebody looks like a hypocrite on

2189
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:43,279
live TV? Do you mean that I instantaneously Fano snap

2190
01:43:43,359 --> 01:43:45,239
out of existence? What does that mean?

2191
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:48,760
Speaker 10: No, I'm so sorry. When I talk about collapse, it

2192
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,560
is the point in which a system fails, whether that's okay,

2193
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:55,319
full contract between friends or authority of a government, or

2194
01:43:55,359 --> 01:43:56,880
the legitimacy of the religion.

2195
01:43:57,119 --> 01:43:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm on board.

2196
01:43:58,039 --> 01:44:00,600
Speaker 10: When at the point when a system fails, the collapse

2197
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:03,720
is when the when the contradiction in it is no

2198
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:05,119
longer ignorable.

2199
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:09,359
Speaker 1: Okay, So give me an example in history, any one

2200
01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:14,720
example where that happened, where collapse happened, as you're describing it, well.

2201
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:17,319
Speaker 10: Where collapse happened. I mean, like we can talk about

2202
01:44:17,319 --> 01:44:20,439
the Roman Empire and how these guys are fighting between Yeah,

2203
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:20,920
let's talk.

2204
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:22,800
Speaker 1: About the Roman Empire. Did the Roman.

2205
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 10: Empire collapse until they were nothing?

2206
01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:28,079
Speaker 1: Did the Roman Empire collapse and disappear, or did it

2207
01:44:28,119 --> 01:44:31,680
get split into the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire.

2208
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:35,199
Speaker 10: Well, the original concept had collapsed, and after these it

2209
01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:38,079
had to restructure or be erased, and we saw research sell.

2210
01:44:38,359 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 1: But how do we know how do we know that

2211
01:44:42,039 --> 01:44:45,600
there is a through line from this specific concept. We

2212
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:48,079
can talk about recognition and mobility and all those other things,

2213
01:44:48,359 --> 01:44:50,479
but how do we know that the suffering is what

2214
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,199
caused the supposed collapse of the Roman Empire, which again

2215
01:44:54,439 --> 01:44:56,880
I'm not even granting yet. I don't think there was

2216
01:44:56,960 --> 01:44:59,039
a collapse of the Roman Empire in the way that

2217
01:44:59,079 --> 01:45:03,359
you're talking about I think there was a reformation, a restructuring,

2218
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:06,479
which is which is fine that, but maybe instead of

2219
01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:10,920
using the word collapse avoidance, maybe you just change that terminology,

2220
01:45:11,079 --> 01:45:11,319
you know.

2221
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:15,119
Speaker 10: Yeah, Like I would say the Roman Empire that we

2222
01:45:15,399 --> 01:45:17,520
saw before it had split and then.

2223
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:19,680
Speaker 7: Dissolved, right exist.

2224
01:45:20,079 --> 01:45:23,159
Speaker 10: Sure, then it began to restructure into these two like,

2225
01:45:23,279 --> 01:45:26,920
you know, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Catholic Roman Empire.

2226
01:45:27,119 --> 01:45:30,119
And as the contradictions in those empires continued, we saw

2227
01:45:30,159 --> 01:45:33,479
the legitimacy of their authority decrease and decrease and decrease

2228
01:45:33,600 --> 01:45:34,960
until we get to the Dark Ages.

2229
01:45:35,119 --> 01:45:38,279
Speaker 1: Sure, but we're mixing up two different things here that

2230
01:45:38,399 --> 01:45:40,920
I think are very important for us to hang on

2231
01:45:41,039 --> 01:45:44,239
just a second. We're mixing up two very important, two

2232
01:45:44,479 --> 01:45:46,600
very different things here that I think it's important for

2233
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:49,479
us to make sure we keep separate. We're going back

2234
01:45:49,560 --> 01:45:52,920
and forth between talking about things in a conceptual sense

2235
01:45:53,279 --> 01:45:56,359
and talking about things in a tangible, physical sense. Right

2236
01:45:57,039 --> 01:46:00,960
As a concept the Roman Empire may have collapsed in

2237
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:05,039
various understandings of what the word collapse mean. Like Italy's

2238
01:46:05,079 --> 01:46:08,880
still fucking there, you know, those buildings are still there, right,

2239
01:46:09,039 --> 01:46:12,640
That didn't disappear. It wasn't as if on Monday we

2240
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:16,119
had Roman citizens and then on Tuesday we had fuck all,

2241
01:46:16,199 --> 01:46:19,439
who knows what, you know? Right, So this and this

2242
01:46:19,640 --> 01:46:21,439
the reason that I'm kind of poking at this just

2243
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:22,079
a little bit.

2244
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:23,720
Speaker 2: Roman.

2245
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:26,760
Speaker 1: Sure, sure we do have Italian citizens, but we also

2246
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:30,000
have Roman citizens because Rome is still very much a

2247
01:46:30,079 --> 01:46:33,239
city in in in the country of Italy.

2248
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:33,760
Speaker 5: I mean.

2249
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:36,279
Speaker 1: So it the reason that I'm kind of poking at this.

2250
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:39,600
And it may seem you know, really really picky and

2251
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:43,119
really you know, really pedantic and whatnot, But it's because

2252
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:48,119
in these types of constructions, in these type of philosophical discussions,

2253
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:52,720
we have to be as precise as possible with our language. Right,

2254
01:46:53,079 --> 01:46:55,439
And if we're going back and forth and we're discussing

2255
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:59,840
tangible collapse, right of like an empire or you know,

2256
01:47:00,319 --> 01:47:02,560
it might be fair to say that the government of

2257
01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:06,079
Ethiopia a good handful of years ago collapsed. That might

2258
01:47:06,159 --> 01:47:08,439
be a fair statement. It might be a fair statement

2259
01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:12,640
to say a buddy of mine's shed in his backyard collapsed.

2260
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:15,199
You know, what does it mean to say that a

2261
01:47:15,399 --> 01:47:19,399
philosophical concept, right collapsed? What does it mean to say

2262
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:25,439
utilitarianism collapsed, you know, or Islamic theology collapsed, you know.

2263
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:28,359
And the only reason I'm being picky is because I

2264
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:31,520
think if you make this language a bit more precise,

2265
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:34,760
I think you will have a more sound system on

2266
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:36,760
your hand. And I know I was rambling a lot,

2267
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:38,640
So I'm going to give you a minute to respond

2268
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:38,840
to that.

2269
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:41,800
Speaker 10: Lord, I'm so sorry. Okay, I'm still working on like

2270
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:44,880
words and definitions and trying to get anything nailed down right,

2271
01:47:45,119 --> 01:47:46,880
But like, the main point I'm trying to say is,

2272
01:47:47,119 --> 01:47:50,479
like the collapse is when you don't believe the system anymore, Right,

2273
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:53,000
when you look at the contradictions in Islam and you

2274
01:47:53,119 --> 01:47:55,239
can't keep believing it, or you have some sort of

2275
01:47:55,359 --> 01:47:58,840
utilitarian philosophy imposed, but you see people are not doing

2276
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:01,279
better and you can't believe it that system anymore. That's

2277
01:48:01,359 --> 01:48:04,079
a collapse is when you break up with your girlfriend because.

2278
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:07,399
Speaker 1: Okay, trust Okay, So I think that would be okay,

2279
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:09,479
I'm sorry to jump in, but I think that might

2280
01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:14,800
be a worthwhile thing going forward, is to explicitly state

2281
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:18,079
what you're just when when you're using the word collapse

2282
01:48:18,159 --> 01:48:23,159
in this in this moral construction, you are explicitly referencing

2283
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:30,800
the individual now being incapable of holding true this ideology

2284
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:35,439
because of various contradictions or problems with it. Right like that,

2285
01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:38,520
that that might be, in my opinion, a worthwhile thing

2286
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:41,600
to to make sure it's out there. I might have

2287
01:48:42,199 --> 01:48:45,760
some pushback. I might, but we've already been going for

2288
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:47,560
for a good while and I think you're on the

2289
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:50,760
right path for sure. So, Scott, is there anything else

2290
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:51,640
you wanted to say.

2291
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:57,560
Speaker 4: Before we Yeah? Lord, I think what you're saying sounds

2292
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:00,000
pretty good to me. I mean it, and I feel

2293
01:49:00,359 --> 01:49:03,640
like I'm missing something here. I feel like I'm missing

2294
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:06,439
some kind of connection here because what you're describing to

2295
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:09,840
me seems seems in a nutshell like you're saying, if

2296
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:12,239
you respect people and you treat them like human beings,

2297
01:49:12,359 --> 01:49:14,960
then they'll agree with you, or they'll go along with you,

2298
01:49:15,199 --> 01:49:18,239
or they won't reject you. And I feel like that's

2299
01:49:18,239 --> 01:49:23,039
a pretty common conception out there, and I agree with SR.

2300
01:49:23,119 --> 01:49:25,199
I think that you're used to the terminology is a

2301
01:49:25,199 --> 01:49:29,279
little bit different than what I'm used to. I feel

2302
01:49:29,399 --> 01:49:33,239
like there's some interesting there's an interesting perspective in there

2303
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:38,399
that I'm just not connecting with. And so You've stimulated

2304
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:41,920
some interesting thoughts in my head, and I like the

2305
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:45,079
way that you're taking things. If there is something that,

2306
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:48,640
something new that you're bringing to the table, I would

2307
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:51,079
I wish I could understand that more, but I'm just

2308
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:53,720
not connecting with it. If that makes sense.

2309
01:49:54,079 --> 01:49:57,119
Speaker 10: Hey, that's fine, Like you know all that stuff, it's

2310
01:49:57,199 --> 01:50:00,439
feedback and I find what I'm not planning to you

2311
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:03,880
properly because if I am bringing something new and worthwhile

2312
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:05,880
to the table, it needs to be properly defined.

2313
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:07,920
Speaker 4: And so this is Do you think that I was

2314
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,680
kind of on point? Do you think that the way

2315
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,279
I was describing your philosophy here, do you think that

2316
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:16,199
was a reasonable explanation or do you think I was

2317
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:17,479
missing the boat there?

2318
01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:20,079
Speaker 10: Well, I would say the only thing that I would

2319
01:50:20,079 --> 01:50:23,199
add to what you said is that when you're doing

2320
01:50:23,319 --> 01:50:25,399
compression logical, which is what i'm calling it for now,

2321
01:50:25,640 --> 01:50:28,159
I have to take your system and look at its

2322
01:50:28,239 --> 01:50:31,479
contradictions and remove them. Then you can behave morally.

2323
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 7: After that.

2324
01:50:32,399 --> 01:50:35,640
Speaker 10: It is a critical look at what you're doing, your systems,

2325
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:38,319
your intentions, your beliefs, and then after that, after you

2326
01:50:38,439 --> 01:50:40,960
remove or restructure them, you can move forward and do

2327
01:50:41,119 --> 01:50:42,560
what you're supposed to fucking do.

2328
01:50:42,800 --> 01:50:45,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I understand the rest of it correctly, then

2329
01:50:45,199 --> 01:50:48,000
I think I agree with what you just said there, right.

2330
01:50:48,159 --> 01:50:50,600
Speaker 10: And what I'm what I'm proposing is a is a

2331
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:53,520
way to do it without kind of just hemming in

2332
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,439
high and just thinking about it. I'm thinking that there's

2333
01:50:56,479 --> 01:50:59,600
a way that you can objectively look at contradictions and

2334
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:02,800
more really remove them so we're not committing genocide.

2335
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:07,119
Speaker 1: Well again, Lord, I think this is a very great

2336
01:51:07,199 --> 01:51:09,159
path to be on. And I think, like I said

2337
01:51:09,159 --> 01:51:12,399
from the beginning, broadly speaking, I think I kind of get,

2338
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:16,199
you know, the overall picture of what you're going for here,

2339
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:19,000
and I gotta say I kind of like it, you know.

2340
01:51:20,239 --> 01:51:24,840
That being said, I definitely think looking into some constructivist

2341
01:51:24,960 --> 01:51:28,600
type of stuff with like John Rawls, you know, some

2342
01:51:28,720 --> 01:51:32,800
stuff from like Emmanuel Kant and the categorical imperative, and

2343
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:35,800
then some newer stuff too, like Derek Parfitt, like he's

2344
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:39,199
he's not terribly he's not terribly far back in the

2345
01:51:39,439 --> 01:51:43,279
in the philosophy you know timeline, which which is great

2346
01:51:43,640 --> 01:51:46,479
because he's talking about some things that are really really

2347
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:49,880
tangible and prevalent today that you know, people like Descartes

2348
01:51:50,079 --> 01:51:52,399
or Rousseau never could have never could have come up

2349
01:51:52,439 --> 01:51:56,960
with But yeah, I think broadly speaking, Scott and I

2350
01:51:57,039 --> 01:51:59,399
are like, yeah, this sounds like a cool little venture

2351
01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:03,600
and we'd love to see how it evolves and continues

2352
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:07,199
to get shored up. I do think already one of

2353
01:52:07,279 --> 01:52:12,239
the problems you you will find going forward is connecting

2354
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:19,600
back to the reasoning behind why you have said suffering, mobility, recognition,

2355
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:23,119
why those things are the important things and not the

2356
01:52:23,479 --> 01:52:26,800
infinite other options. I will go ahead and give you

2357
01:52:26,880 --> 01:52:29,720
a quick cheat on that, though. You could just take

2358
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:32,560
the stance that it doesn't matter. You could just say, hey,

2359
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:34,960
it could be anything else, but it is these, fuck

2360
01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:39,000
it and we move on. That actually is acceptable. So uh,

2361
01:52:39,119 --> 01:52:41,520
but I'm gonna drop you like a like a hot

2362
01:52:41,640 --> 01:52:43,680
rock here, Lord, because we are at the end of

2363
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:45,960
the show. Thank you so fricking much for forgiving us

2364
01:52:45,960 --> 01:52:47,479
a call. And I hope we I hope we get

2365
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:49,560
to call you talk to you in the future. So

2366
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:52,680
thank you so much, Lord. And uh, that's it, man.

2367
01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:55,359
We got a we got an empty queue, and I've

2368
01:52:55,439 --> 01:52:58,640
got an empty belly, so I know we are going

2369
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:01,199
to get out of here quick before too long. Hey,

2370
01:53:01,279 --> 01:53:03,920
you you go hang out on the Nonprofits, don't you?

2371
01:53:04,119 --> 01:53:07,680
Aren't you make an appearance?

2372
01:53:08,119 --> 01:53:10,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll be on Uh, I'll be on this. The

2373
01:53:10,359 --> 01:53:12,199
episode's coming out this week is Oh my.

2374
01:53:12,279 --> 01:53:15,239
Speaker 1: Gosh, oh my gosh. Well that's great. That's that's that

2375
01:53:15,399 --> 01:53:18,399
is an easy place to remind people to go check out.

2376
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:21,880
If you are not watching uh, the flagship show of

2377
01:53:22,039 --> 01:53:25,960
the ACA the Nonprofits, you should you should in fact

2378
01:53:26,079 --> 01:53:29,319
be doing that. But dude, Scott, thank you so much

2379
01:53:29,439 --> 01:53:32,479
man for for hanging out and you know, being there

2380
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:35,640
ready when Jamike and I say dumb things and getting ready.

2381
01:53:35,439 --> 01:53:37,399
Speaker 4: To jump in, and I feel like I kind of

2382
01:53:37,680 --> 01:53:39,600
I'm a kid sitting in the backseat of the car

2383
01:53:40,319 --> 01:53:41,840
up in the middle. It is like looking up what

2384
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:43,880
the grown ups are doing up in the front, and oh,

2385
01:53:44,119 --> 01:53:45,840
some day someday I want to sit there.

2386
01:53:46,359 --> 01:53:48,479
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you this, If Jamike and I are

2387
01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:51,079
the ones driving the car, we are all fucked uh.

2388
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:55,239
Speaker 4: But that's what makes it interesting, that's right.

2389
01:53:55,399 --> 01:53:55,520
Speaker 2: Right.

2390
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 6: We don't know how we're gonna get there or when

2391
01:53:57,920 --> 01:53:59,640
we're going to get there, and we don't know where

2392
01:53:59,640 --> 01:54:02,439
we're going to get to, but we're gonna get fucking somewhere.

2393
01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:06,319
Speaker 1: But seriously, I always love being here. It is such

2394
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:09,479
a freaking great time. I am excited to get to

2395
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:11,680
see you in person again, to get to hang out

2396
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:15,359
in Austin, Texas, and lots of time from now. So guys,

2397
01:54:15,479 --> 01:54:19,159
remember go tiny dot cc slash back Cruise. You can

2398
01:54:19,239 --> 01:54:22,399
go get all the information there, get you tickets, or

2399
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:24,640
just send in a couple of bucks to help some

2400
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:29,039
people get out and have a good time. But other

2401
01:54:29,159 --> 01:54:32,520
than that, I am gonna go eat a very large

2402
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:37,479
pot of very many beans and probably I don't know,

2403
01:54:38,079 --> 01:54:40,720
go to bed or something. I'm tired. But anyway, thanks,

2404
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:42,359
so watch you guys. We will see you next week

2405
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:46,319
Sunday at four thirty pm. Go out there and center something.

2406
01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:51,439
Speaker 3: Start.

2407
01:54:54,119 --> 01:54:56,399
Speaker 1: Not a joke, by the way, I have a very

2408
01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:00,359
large pot. It's like four pounds of beans in my kitchen.

2409
01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:02,640
Has just been a simmering this whole time.

2410
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:03,960
Speaker 7: Wow.

2411
01:55:04,279 --> 01:55:07,920
Speaker 1: Like Kidney B. Watch Talk Ee Than Live Sundays at

2412
01:55:08,000 --> 01:55:11,159
one pm Central. Visit tiny dot c c slash y

2413
01:55:11,319 --> 01:55:13,560
t t H and call into the show at five

2414
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:16,600
one two nine nine one nine two four two or

2415
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:19,079
connect to the show online at tiny dot c c

2416
01:55:19,319 --> 01:55:20,600
slash call THH