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Are 26 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.120 you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by 27 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.120 Law eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 28 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.560 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 29 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.680 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:50.840 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. 31 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.560 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 32 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:59.719 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 33 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.040 your host, journalist and author. 34 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:17.240 Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In October of nineteen seventy seven, 35 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:20.840 David Bowman moved to Las Vegas as a sixteen year 36 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.800 old kid with his parents and older brother. Bowman chronicles 37 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:27.240 his journey through the streets of Las Vegas for the 38 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:32.199 next three years. Bringing down Kolada. Bowman tells us how 39 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:35.240 he worked his way into the most elite criminal organization 40 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:39.199 in Las Vegas. He recounts how he became the point 41 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:43.159 man in the Las Vegas organized Crime Strike Forces investigation 42 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.719 of the Chicago outfit and Tony Spilatro in his right 43 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:49.719 hand man Frank Klota, the leader of the Hole in 44 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.919 the Wall Gang. The book that we're featuring this evening 45 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.840 is bringing Down Colata, the story Casino couldn't tell you 46 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:02.039 with my special guests off the David Bowman, Welcome to 47 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:07.159 the program, and thank you for this interview. David Bowman, Thank. 48 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.000 You, Dan. I'm glad to be here, looking forward to it. 49 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:15.360 Thanks, thank you so much. This is a very personal story, 50 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.479 and let's get right to that. I won't ask how 51 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:22.960 you got involved. That will be revealed as we go 52 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.080 through this story. Why don't you take us back, as 53 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:28.800 you do in the book, to nineteen seventy seven, your 54 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.439 dad was forced into retirement and you got sick in 55 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.520 the eighth grade. Tell us what happened in the eighth 56 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:37.680 grade and who you were at that time and how 57 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:41.599 things changed after that. Give us a little bit about 58 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.159 your background, your family life, and as you do in 59 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:49.800 the book, and what happened in that pivotal time just 60 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:50.919 entering high school. 61 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:58.759 Yeah, I got sick with Sam and Ella initially and 62 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:03.319 we couldn't where I got it from. But it ended 63 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:08.800 up it was our cat, our family cat, and but 64 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:13.439 that developed into colidus and I had to you know, 65 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:15.360 I was in really bad shape. I lost a lot 66 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.480 of blood. I had to have six pints of blood 67 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.879 transfused over the course of a couple of weeks, and 68 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:30.360 so I ended up having to have emergency surgery, uh colostity, 69 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:36.399 temporary colostomy, and that was really, you know, devastating to 70 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:38.839 me at the time. I mean, being a in the 71 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.600 eighth grade. You know, it was February is when I 72 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.920 got sick. So I was into the school year, and 73 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:49.480 you know, I was very you know, popular athletic. Uh 74 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:52.439 you know, I was an editor of our little paper 75 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:56.279 and school paper and whatnot. So I was just a healthy, 76 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:59.319 normal kid. I was into racing dirt bikes too. My 77 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:04.240 friend was a we were into that and so yeah, 78 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.000 I got very sick. And but once I had the surgery, 79 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:12.240 you know, I recovered and pretty well bounced back to normal. 80 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.319 But at that time, my dad had worked for the 81 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.959 Colorado Few and Iron and CFNI Steel Plant and Pueblo 82 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:25.120 and at that time, in the late seventies, the Daphening 83 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:31.000 Steel was beginning to flood the cars, and so he 84 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:33.879 was They were scaling the mill back, and he was 85 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.240 pretty much forced into retirement and either had to go 86 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.439 back in the ranks, take a pay cut, or or 87 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.639 retire early and get his pension. And so that's what 88 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:47.439 he did, and that was devastating to him. You know, 89 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.040 he'd worked there for thirty two years, and it was 90 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.600 you know, I really didn't understand it at the time, 91 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:56.879 but as I got older, I realized, you know, how 92 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.800 how devastating that was to him, because he was still 93 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.839 pretty much a young man. But anyway, we had gone 94 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:10.399 out to Vegas in March seventy seven and went out 95 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:13.800 just on a vacation with me and my brother Larry 96 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:18.720 and my folks, and we had a great time. We 97 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:23.000 liked it, and we started talking about moving out there. 98 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:29.240 And because Peblo was really it was kind of a 99 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.079 dead end place. There really wasn't a lot of opportunity, 100 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:37.079 and my dad knew that, and so he thought, well, 101 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.120 let's go out to Las Vegas. And so that's really 102 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.519 how it happened. We left and went out there in 103 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:43.920 October seventy seven. 104 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.639 Now you talk about that your parents don't hang around 105 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.920 so long, and you decided to hang around with your 106 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:58.639 brother and you get an apartment. They think that they're 107 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.240 going to give you a little bit of money, you're 108 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.279 going to get a job, and you're going to get 109 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.360 this apartment, and that's what you're going to do. But 110 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.920 you had other ideas, didn't you. 111 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:11.759 Yeah, Well, you know, I'd met some people. They the 112 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.639 reason they moved back was because my mother's my granddad 113 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.519 was at the end of his life and he needed 114 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.680 a lot of you know, attention and care and he 115 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:29.160 was living with my mother's younger sister, so she wanted 116 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.160 to go back, and you know, that was the big 117 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:35.279 driving force of them leaving. My dad wanted to stay, 118 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.800 but you know, because of my mother, he went back 119 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:41.560 and it was just me and my brother. We had 120 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.199 already had an apartment and it was the same apartment, 121 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:48.000 but you know, when they left and my brother and 122 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:53.279 I just took it over and he got a job, 123 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:54.879 and you know, they left me a little bit of 124 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.279 money when they left, and I had met some people 125 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.319 in the apartment complex that we lived in and down 126 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.040 at the pool, and that's how it began. I they 127 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:11.439 were selling cocaine. And I had never even done cocaine 128 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:15.839 until I had got you know, at that point in time, Uh, 129 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:18.800 you know, I had already started smoking pot and that 130 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:23.920 was about it, really And and I started doing that 131 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.839 after I was kind of rehabbing after the surgery and recovering. 132 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.959 You know, I couldn't ride my motorcycle, and so you know, 133 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:36.200 I started experimenting with the league. But yeah, so I 134 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:41.639 started selling blow with some guys I met in an 135 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:47.120 apartment complex and was making a lot of money, especially 136 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:50.840 for a seventeen year old guy that I was. 137 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.320 You met a guy named Joey Posson and it was 138 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:02.840 Petcha chef and he became fast friends. Your friend Larry 139 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.039 got strung out, you said, And that led to another 140 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.120 guy named Craig, and then he started doing speedball. So 141 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.919 a lot of these people, you know, they did they 142 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:15.600 and parted too much. Yeah, that part of it. They 143 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.120 spent too much on new product business. 144 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.440 I'm part sorry. 145 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:24.200 Go ahead, So you talked about Joey introducing you to 146 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:27.759 Jerry Costanza in late nineteen seventy eight. Who else did 147 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:29.759 you meet at that time? And tell us about that 148 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:31.840 meeting with Jerry costantin who he was. 149 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:39.080 Yeah, Jerry was you know, Joey had talked about him 150 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.879 quite a bit before I actually met him. And the 151 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.960 whole Costanza family that he you know, got involved with, 152 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:55.120 nick being the father and Elaine was his daughter, and 153 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.960 Jerry and Michelle and Nicky Junior and that was the 154 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:04.360 Costanzas family. And I met all of them. Uh and 155 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.320 you know they kind of became, uh you know, sort 156 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:13.000 of my Las Vegas family, uh so to speak. And 157 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.080 uh but I didn't I hadn't met Jerry. I actually 158 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.559 met uh Elaine prior, you know, before I met Jerry. 159 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:25.080 And Jerry was a pimp. He was a coke dealer. 160 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.639 Uh he'd been out there for a long time. Uh 161 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.360 so he was a street guy. And but he was 162 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:36.000 a pimp and a drug dealer and he was, you know, 163 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:39.960 pretty well connected and in the street. And I met 164 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.879 him because my connection had kind of dried up, like I, 165 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.879 Like you said, he was he got strung out doing 166 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:53.159 speedballs and mixing the heroin and the cocaine. And and 167 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.360 that's something I never did. I never put an needle 168 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:57.519 in my arm. That was where I drew the line. 169 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:00.240 Back in my day, there was a stigma attacked to 170 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:04.240 that and and that was someplace I never wanted to go. 171 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:10.200 And so anyway, that's what I was looking to get 172 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:13.360 a new connect. And Jerry had warned me, or Joey 173 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.720 had warned me about Jerry saying that he had gotten 174 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.240 you know, he gets good stuff. But he was just, uh, 175 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.799 you know, he'd burn you. I mean he would burn 176 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.480 you if he could, you know, he'd feel you out 177 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.159 and if he would see how much you knew and 178 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.000 if he if he determined that you didn't know anything, 179 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.039 then that's when he would put the screws to you. 180 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:37.960 But I showed him that I wasn't. I showed him 181 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.320 I kind of impressed him with my knowledge. You know, 182 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.320 I tested it in front of him. I did a 183 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.120 bleach test in front of him. And yeah, I was 184 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.519 very respectful. I mean I was kind of intimidated by 185 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.279 him initially because I'd heard so much about him from 186 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.240 Joey and uh, but him and I kind of had 187 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.440 a chemistry and we you know, he was very funny guy. 188 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:06.440 He could be. He was just a character and he 189 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:10.200 was very funny and we had you know, we just 190 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:14.440 kind of hit it off and formed a business relationship. 191 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.720 You talked about you write about dealing weed and and 192 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.679 but you also were lining up jobs or scores as 193 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.919 just as you write about Laura at the bank, what 194 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.080 did you ask of Laura and tell us a little 195 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.279 bit more about this sideline that you had other than 196 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:35.279 dealing drugs. 197 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.840 Well, that was prior to that was in Colorado. Was 198 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.879 whereab that all took place in my hometown, and we 199 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.240 were coming back. We were going back and forth, you know, 200 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.399 to Colorado. I would go back and you know, move 201 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:59.399 some product back there. But at that time, prior to 202 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:02.279 us going on out or coming back to Vegas in 203 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.320 June of eighty when I met Frank in the Hole 204 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:07.039 in the Wall game, and we'll get to that. But 205 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.720 the deal with the girl at the bank was just 206 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.240 kind of a fluke. Actually, we had met her at 207 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.120 a I'd met her at a friend's house and we 208 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.399 just started partying and you know, talking, and she mentioned 209 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:27.559 the guy at the bank, and we just kind of 210 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:29.639 ran with it. So it wasn't anything that we were 211 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:34.840 really doing, you know, it was just we saw it 212 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:39.679 as an opportunity and like I said, we just ran 213 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:44.799 with it. There was something we weren't doing regularly. I 214 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:46.320 just wanted to say that. 215 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:51.320 Right. You write about the state of Las Vegas in 216 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.120 terms of for the mobsters and for law enforcement in 217 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:59.039 the seventies in Las Vegas, and you'r co author of 218 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.720 this book Dennis Epans book of the Battle for Las 219 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:06.240 Vegas Chronicles, and he had written extensively about the Hole 220 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.639 in the Wall game. Tell us a little bit about 221 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.440 that state of where both parties were at that time 222 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.639 in Vegas. 223 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.840 When I met them in the summer of nineteen eighty 224 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.000 was the first week in June. It was after the 225 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:29.519 failed attempted heist in Pueblo, and we went straight to Vegas. 226 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:32.840 I mean right after that happened. We hit the highway 227 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:37.080 and we were in Vegas the next day. And at 228 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:43.759 that time Jeene Smith, who was a sergeant, Eugene Smith 229 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.799 of the Las Vegas Metro Intelligence Division, had shot one 230 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.960 of the mobsters Chicago mobsters, a guy by the name 231 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:57.840 of Frankie Bluestein in front of his in front of 232 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:04.039 Sunrise Villas, had tailed him. They were they were constantly 233 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:09.960 surveilling the Bupper crust and anytime a new car which 234 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.200 out of state place would would pull in that parking lot, 235 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:17.519 they knew about it and so Gruver and Geene Smith 236 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.759 followed him one night after he left the restaurant and 237 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:24.799 they were and as Jeane Smith tells me later, they 238 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.120 weren't even going to pull him over. They were just 239 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:32.879 running his plate. But he takes off down Flamingo, I believe, 240 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.919 going like eighty ninety miles an hour, and so they 241 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.200 had to pull him over, and that's what happened. They 242 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.679 pulled him over in front of Sunrise Villas and he 243 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.879 pulled a gun on him. I know it's in the 244 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.679 movie Casino. They say it was a hero sandwich, but 245 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:55.240 that wasn't the case. 246 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:55.600 It was. 247 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:01.799 In fact, the gun was registered to his brother. And anyway, 248 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:03.799 he pulls the gun on Smiths and Gruber and they 249 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.960 shot him fifteen times and killed him. And so those 250 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.240 guys when I pulled up to the restaurant in June 251 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:13.159 of the first week in June, they were all a 252 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.759 buzz about that because it had just happened. I don't 253 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.120 know whether it was the day before or a couple 254 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.120 of days, but it was very you know, fresh, and 255 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.000 so yeah, they were a buzz about that as well 256 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:33.279 as they pumped me and Joe about Nix Castanza's youngest 257 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.720 son being killed a few months prior. They found him 258 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.679 in the trunk of his car in the desert, shot 259 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:45.559 in the back of the head, and so Nick and 260 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.320 Jerry were beside themselves over it. I mean, they were 261 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:54.039 a very clit, close knit Italian family, and so they 262 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.679 wanted to pump me and Joe and got real serious 263 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:03.120 with us, pretty scared, very actually, and I mean we 264 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:05.799 didn't know anything. I mean, we were good friends with 265 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.680 Niki and in fact, we had gone horseback riding with 266 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:12.200 him just after we'd left to go to Colorado. We're 267 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:17.680 right prior to that. But it was pretty, uh, it 268 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.200 was pretty intense. But that was how the first meeting 269 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:26.119 went with with the with the whole newall gang guys. 270 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.400 Now, let's explain for audience that for those that seen 271 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.880 I have seen casino, which is everybody, probably Frank Rosenthal, 272 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:40.200 Frank Lefty Rosenthal as partners with Tony Spilatro, how does 273 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:44.279 Frank Klata come to be who? How's he connected to 274 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.240 Spilatro and and tell us a little bit about that. 275 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:52.759 As you've explained, Yeah, it was a completely different relationship. 276 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.480 The relationship that Spilactro and Rosenthal had was a secret 277 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:02.519 relationship everyone knew they had it, but they tried to 278 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.079 you know, not be seen in public together. And when 279 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.480 they met, it was very clandestine because they didn't want 280 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:18.640 that association to be you know proven actually. But anyway, 281 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.559 Kalada was his street lieutenant. He was his muscle, and 282 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:27.519 that's what he brought Frank out there for and assembled 283 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.559 these guys who later became known as the Hole in 284 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:35.960 the Wall Gang, the Larry Newman, the Ernie Divino, Leo Guardino, 285 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.039 Wayne Mtechi. But mainly the two hole in the real 286 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.759 Hole in the Wall Gang was Ernie Divino and Leo Guardino. 287 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.240 Anybody else like the picture that they everybody sees of 288 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.240 when they were arrested at Bertha's, they associ that's the 289 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.240 Hole in the Wall gang, But there was three guys 290 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:03.039 involved in that that weren't you know, involved in That 291 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:09.000 was probably the only job they were involved in. So, yeah, 292 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.680 that's Alk was the leader of the Whole in the 293 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:16.640 Wall Gang, which was a burglary crew. They were professionals, 294 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:21.440 Ernie and Leo, and they would get tips and information 295 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.839 from people all over Las Vegas and they would pound 296 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.880 holes in the side of the wall in certain jobs. 297 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:33.920 Sometimes they did things differently, but h and that's who 298 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.640 they were, and they weren't even supposed to be. The 299 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:41.359 bosses of Chicago would have never okayed that because it 300 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:46.359 creates heat and they didn't want anything disturbing the skin 301 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.720 or or you know, bringing heat down on people. 302 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.519 You talk about Elaine working at this upper crust restaurant 303 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.519 and it's owned by Frank Colada, and I store the 304 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:05.880 restaurants a bar called my Place, a hangout for spiatro. Yes, 305 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:09.599 you're the person that you knew in the Hole in 306 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.200 the Wall gang was Ernie. You didn't know anyone other 307 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:17.759 than Ernie, and Ernie was instrumental in you tell us 308 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.240 how you become involved with the Hole in the Wall 309 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.000 gang and in what capacity. 310 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:27.200 Well, right after we arrived into town, as I talked 311 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:33.480 about earlier, my friend Joe Tsni began. He took over 312 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.279 Jerry Costanza's spot as the chef at the Upper Cross 313 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:44.119 almost immediately. So I was spending a lot of time 314 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.359 down there. I mean I did know, Like I said, 315 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.240 I saw Frank all the time. I talked to Frank, 316 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:54.480 but it was never you know, about crime or pulling jobs. 317 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:58.559 As you said, Ernie was my guy in that group 318 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.400 and uh, and that was mainly because him and Jerry 319 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:06.160 had become tired. Him and Jerry could stand it, and 320 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.039 so through Jerry and you know, Ernie and I became tight. 321 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:17.079 But yeah, Ernie, I gave them a couple of score. 322 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.319 The first one they almost got arrested by the police. 323 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:24.799 I mean, it wasn't nothing that I had done. I 324 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.759 had not at that time, you know, was not working 325 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:30.960 with the police. I was, you know, totally legit straight 326 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.799 with the Holan Wall. But I gave him the score 327 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:39.960 and they posed as police officers, Ernie and Leo, and 328 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.480 we had we had hit this guy like two years before. 329 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.599 We'd broken into his house because I was selling blow 330 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.640 to him and he was a dealer at the MGM 331 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.839 Grant and we discovered that he had a safe in 332 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.880 his place. So you know, there was we weren't that sophisticated, 333 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.839 and so we did to let it go. But then 334 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.920 you know, a couple of years down the road, this 335 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.200 is when I met the home Wall. This is the 336 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.839 first score that I gave him. And so they went 337 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.759 in and they knocked on the door and the guy 338 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.200 answered the door and they flashed badges and as soon 339 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.400 as you know, he opened the door, they you know, 340 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.960 bum rushed him and were tying him up in a 341 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:26.480 chair and you know, we're going to get the safe 342 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.880 combination out of him. But the neighbors saw what was 343 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.640 going on the next to the neighbor across the street 344 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.640 and called nine to one one. Well, Frank was driving 345 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.160 around with the police scanner. He heard the call come 346 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:45.079 across and so he radioed Ernie Leo to get out 347 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.160 of there that the Cocks had been called. And they 348 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.480 ended up running up the street and hiding in somebody's 349 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.759 house that they knew up there until Frank could get 350 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:59.359 up there and get him. And I was pretty worried 351 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.920 about that because I found out about it by I 352 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.480 was sitting with Jerry and Joe and we had the 353 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.200 TV on and the news came on and it came 354 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.559 over the news as a potential hostage situation at this address, 355 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:16.640 and I'm like, we just looked at each other, and 356 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.319 I was and immediately my pulse went out because I thought, 357 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.559 you know, they would blame me for some reason, you know, 358 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.839 even though you know, there really wasn't anything that I 359 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.839 told them exactly what the deal was. But nevertheless, I 360 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.200 mean I knew these guys were killers, and you know, 361 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.079 I didn't want to be on the wrong side, so 362 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:39.519 finding out if I was still cool with them was 363 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.119 important to me, which which I was. And they kind 364 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:46.680 of laughed about it actually, and and then we went 365 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.039 on to the next one. 366 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:55.039 Tell us about this score. When you meet Nicky's cousin, 367 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:01.640 Tommy Amato, as you say, this quelude freak here. But 368 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.720 you had asked him about if he knew any tell 369 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.160 us what you asked him and what he turned you 370 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:08.440 on to. 371 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.440 Yeah, we were just you know, I'd run into Tommy 372 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.880 every once in a while, and you know, I just 373 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.920 threw out there, you know, if he knew anybody, you know, 374 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:24.680 any dealers that you know that we could you know, 375 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.440 throw to the hole in the wall game. And he 376 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:35.440 mentioned this Cuban that he got his kuaylude from and 377 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:42.640 the guy's name was Ernesto, and so we basically set 378 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.799 him up. Joe and I sat on him one night 379 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:51.720 and he went to this restaurant in Las Vegas and we, 380 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:53.880 just like I said, sat in the parking lot and 381 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.279 sat on him while Ernie and Leo went over and 382 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:06.079 hit his apart. And initially we were told by Franks 383 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.319 that they got like an ounce of blow and a 384 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.079 thousand woods, and as we found out a little bit 385 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.480 later from Earnie telling Jerry, they got a whole lot 386 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:20.920 more than that. So that's that's where the rub began 387 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:21.640 right there. 388 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:26.960 Now, when you realize and you find out that you've 389 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.720 been ripped off, what is your plan? And who goes 390 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.400 along with this plan with you? 391 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:40.400 Well, I mean, honestly, when I found out, initially it 392 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:43.039 was like, well, what am I gonna do? That was 393 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:45.599 my initial reaction. I mean, what am I going to do? 394 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:45.640 It? 395 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:45.920 Over? 396 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:50.960 And you know, strong on these guys and then and 397 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.759 honestly that's how it was. But then Jerry came over 398 00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:59.319 and he started kind of priming me and you know, 399 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:05.799 getting me fired up about it, and you know, saying, hey, Dave, 400 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:07.440 you know it was your score. You know, it's up 401 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:09.680