Speaker 1: You're listening to Redefining Energy.
Speaker 2: Your co hosts from.
Speaker 1: Berlin Gerard Reave and from London.
Speaker 3: Laurent Sag Today on really for an energy job. We're
Speaker 3: going to talk about batteries again, but is the angle
Speaker 3: of the human capital.
Speaker 1: Don't say bachies again. Bateries are revolutionize in our world,
Speaker 1: my friend. We have to keep talking about them.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The Batlin fastactu are currently is growing, I don't know,
Speaker 3: three or four times faster than the solar industry. We
Speaker 3: have records beaten daily. I saw that in August for
Speaker 3: the first time. Listen to this. Chinese battery factories past
Speaker 3: one hundred what our production mark?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 3: Amazing. Meanwhile Northwold's struggling for one giga what our Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was looking at the results recently on Bloomberg negative
Speaker 1: ghostm Margins. That says everything.
Speaker 3: The price are collapsing, chemistries are changing. We've already done
Speaker 3: an episode last months on it. This time we said
Speaker 3: let's bring an expert who really is in the thick.
Speaker 1: Of it, and Lron We've got a great guest on
Speaker 1: guy I've actually known for a long long while, the
Speaker 1: founder and chair of a very interesting business called battery Associates,
Speaker 1: So it's great to have Simon and Gelke onto the show.
Speaker 3: This young German company has been developing a world class
Speaker 3: expertise on how to train the future workforce, how to
Speaker 3: build giga factory, how to optimize them. They've got great
Speaker 3: clients Tesla, Cattle, Polswagen and so Better Associates, Big the
Speaker 3: MIT of Batteries.
Speaker 1: Good partner, so let's why don't we bring him on
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 3: Simon, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Great to have you.
Speaker 3: Well, let's kick off.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the Baschari coaster, which is
Speaker 1: obviously the up and down of the battery industry. Simon,
Speaker 1: what's your take on twenty twenty four and what's going
Speaker 1: on in batteries.
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating time. We have seen massive price factoration,
Speaker 2: especially on the raw material site for the last years
Speaker 2: and which has been really I think putting off stress.
Speaker 2: But then this year we really have seen a massive
Speaker 2: drop in cell price as well as in the system
Speaker 2: level prices for batteries, especially in China. You know, we're
Speaker 2: going down to the fifty dollars per kilar our price mark,
Speaker 2: which I think has been one of these holy grails.
Speaker 2: I think many of us have been looking forward to.
Speaker 2: Of course there's new ances to it if you look
Speaker 2: at the world market, et cetera, and also on the
Speaker 2: chemistry of course out of p et cetera. But after
Speaker 2: a time where the entire conversation was it's too expensive,
Speaker 2: it's getting too expensive, there's a shortage, et cetera, we're
Speaker 2: going to a time where it becomes really cheap compared
Speaker 2: to what it was about a year ago. So I
Speaker 2: think that's just something really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Simon, just to put into perspective what fifty dollars a
Speaker 1: killer WAUR means, just give you an idea where it was,
Speaker 1: maybe even five years ago, what it was a year ago,
Speaker 1: why that was the As you say, it's almost like
Speaker 1: a holy grail within the industry.
Speaker 2: To hit that number. I mean that's really looking at
Speaker 2: kind of like about half in about a year's time,
Speaker 2: which is I think we significant. And if you look
Speaker 2: at in the early days, we look at you know,
Speaker 2: overdo a thousand and all particular hour and then of
Speaker 2: course reduced quite quickly. We have usually seen reductions right
Speaker 2: over the last few years, we have seen what'd say,
Speaker 2: I want twenty percent, of course go up to thirty
Speaker 2: five and down to six percent cost reduction per year,
Speaker 2: and there also has been a year we actually had
Speaker 2: the first time a price increase. Ever really in the
Speaker 2: last kind of decades we have been kind of observing
Speaker 2: the price reductions. So this was due to a higher
Speaker 2: mature costs right about it, and now one two years ago.
Speaker 2: But yeah, now we're looking at halfing right really quickly.
Speaker 2: And of course this is of data of course based
Speaker 2: on you know, what different companies getting for different agreements,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But we have been visiting you know, ats
Speaker 2: of companies in China more recently, and a lot of
Speaker 2: them reported actually because the pressure is so high, there's
Speaker 2: so many cells available, they would sell lot of their
Speaker 2: cells at cost. And that's already a good case for them,
Speaker 2: because otherwise they would lose money because they're not running
Speaker 2: their factories. Because EDFP and China has been so competitive
Speaker 2: because so many lines came online that the cost just
Speaker 2: really you know, went down to cost at cost level
Speaker 2: and the profits have really been dropping even further.
Speaker 3: Simon.
Speaker 1: That sounds a little bit like the solar industry over
Speaker 1: the last ten years.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if.
Speaker 1: I want to put my money into it.
Speaker 2: It's a real challenge we have, you know, we know
Speaker 2: the other form a while back, so we have had
Speaker 2: these discussions for some time. Yeah, it's a challenge for
Speaker 2: the world market if you kind of want to now
Speaker 2: enter the battery game, Like what's the number you're actually
Speaker 2: working on? You say, now, okay, I'm going to sell
Speaker 2: myself to this price point, and suddenly somewhere else they're
Speaker 2: getting produced much cheaper. How do I going to compete
Speaker 2: with that? But of course, and there's also right like
Speaker 2: the cost and the price of it. One is like
Speaker 2: what are the margins people having and what's the local
Speaker 2: pressure you on one hand, what it means right now,
Speaker 2: a lot of these companies in China right they're looking
Speaker 2: at expanding. That's the one strategy they have. They have
Speaker 2: to go overseas because locally it's too competitive, which of
Speaker 2: course is then what you mentioned is solar is a
Speaker 2: big issue. But even pretty much all of the companies
Speaker 2: that spoke there as saying this is not sustainable how
Speaker 2: it is currently, so they're going to be probably consolidation.
Speaker 2: It's not going to work this way. And they also think,
Speaker 2: you know, let's give you an idea right this price
Speaker 2: point right now, right we're looking at something people talking
Speaker 2: about fifty dollars par kilo hour at least what they
Speaker 2: told me what they think it's going to go up
Speaker 2: again about eighty dollars per kilo hour for you know,
Speaker 2: lethumon LFP properly, and then maybe Solio mirond can come
Speaker 2: soup in and end up around to fifty dollars par
Speaker 2: kiled hour as one example. They're also trying to figure
Speaker 2: it out. But I'm with you. I think the challenge
Speaker 2: is going to be how to stay competitive and not
Speaker 2: getting it reeded out the market in this really intense
Speaker 2: low cost times. And I think they've seen similar things
Speaker 2: in solar and I think that's what they're hinting at.
Speaker 1: Well, this is why I definitely always talked about the
Speaker 1: solar coaster for a long, long while, and that's why
Speaker 1: I think it's the battery coasters what we're seeing.
Speaker 3: Now, Simon, when we look at a price collapse. You
Speaker 3: mentioned lithium, and the price of lithium has gone down,
Speaker 3: and of course it's LFP because so nobody cares about
Speaker 3: nikio or cobalt anymore. Or maybe someone say that you Okay, fine,
Speaker 3: So that's why we have an ex spelt like you
Speaker 3: so you can contrady my platitudes. Is it the volume,
Speaker 3: is it the technology that is getting better? Is it
Speaker 3: the manufacturing that's getting better? How can you explain? Because
Speaker 3: in solar we now know how the price went, you know,
Speaker 3: ten cents of what and of course when it was
Speaker 3: what people say, what you know it's gonna go back up?
Speaker 3: We can't, we can't do any think better. What's your explanation.
Speaker 2: There's a range of factors, right, and I think you're
Speaker 2: already touched on a cup of them. Of course, one
Speaker 2: we talk them varmaterial costs, which have been relaxing, and
Speaker 2: I think there's a combination. One is there has been
Speaker 2: in a shortage twitch has been highly anticipated, there was
Speaker 2: some speculation. There's all different things, right, we have going
Speaker 2: into that. Also, of course the demand has been lower,
Speaker 2: right like if he demand has been lower than anticipated
Speaker 2: but a year ago. So there has been much more
Speaker 2: BETH demand short term anticipated and we see right now.
Speaker 2: And then of course also manufacturing why chemistry changes like
Speaker 2: LFP being more cost effective there and IFP getting more
Speaker 2: energy dense on the system level, there's been progressed innovation
Speaker 2: there as well. Of course, also it has been subsacent parst.
Speaker 2: So I think there's really like a mix of things.
Speaker 2: Then local market competition, and I think also here we
Speaker 2: should talk about the cells et cetera. Rights for example,
Speaker 2: like the best market in China, Like it's one of
Speaker 2: these things we're extremely competitive right now where the price
Speaker 2: has really dropped a lot because it's kind of became
Speaker 2: more and more of a commodity there. It's not all
Speaker 2: the same chemistry, is all the same quality on the
Speaker 2: same levels, right which experienced in the same things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's really like a multitude of factors for
Speaker 2: that which kind of playing into that. And I think
Speaker 2: we haven't seen it all of them on the end
Speaker 2: consumer market. But I think, of course I'm an end consumer.
Speaker 2: It's fantastic, right we want these lower cost evs, so
Speaker 2: I think any up from cost production there as great.
Speaker 2: As we know it's a big part of the you know,
Speaker 2: can be the biggest part of the EVP to have
Speaker 2: the battery system. So I think having relaxation of you know,
Speaker 2: material costs, innovation and technology, et cetera, is all great.
Speaker 2: It's vially a mix again, I think we don't see
Speaker 2: the squeeze to come up anytime soon. I think of
Speaker 2: more materials at least of what we're kind of hearing.
Speaker 2: But I think there's still questions kind of what's going
Speaker 2: to be the real price point then, you know, in
Speaker 2: Europe versus China or in the US, right because some
Speaker 2: of these prices are also a bit more local than
Speaker 2: their global.
Speaker 3: Let's talk a bit about the chemistry. We have the
Speaker 3: feeling that LFP, you know, a bit like monocrystal line
Speaker 3: for solar's becoming like the standard. Is it something you
Speaker 3: see as well for the next five years, or talk
Speaker 3: about briefly about studium.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I just want to just say
Speaker 1: one thing on top of that. Lauran used the word we.
Speaker 1: What he should say, is I not way because I
Speaker 1: don't agree with him, but sorry, go on, Simon, and
Speaker 1: I know you don't agree with them.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really one of these things. LFP
Speaker 2: is a tremendous, exciting rollercoast story. In some way, not
Speaker 2: too many years ago wasn't looked at the same rate
Speaker 2: as now, and I think it got really popularized right
Speaker 2: of course, especially in China. But then also I think
Speaker 2: Tesla did a big waveype when they announced it will
Speaker 2: have a larger share for LFP, and suddenly, you know,
Speaker 2: we see high performance cars AFP, et cetera. So I'm
Speaker 2: with you, Lauren, that it's a massive chunk right of
Speaker 2: of bad ways going to LFP. And I think especially
Speaker 2: for stationary we've seen also in China right like even
Speaker 2: it became the standard and also like even legal and
Speaker 2: regulatory topics on that right, so to have LFP for that,
Speaker 2: so I think I'm with you. I think that there's
Speaker 2: a big, big market there. I wouldn't completely underestimate NMC
Speaker 2: chemistries either, just because one from a performance still performance
Speaker 2: you can get and that's of course also for longer
Speaker 2: range and things like that and some of the charging topics.
Speaker 2: And then of course also that nickel again cobet the
Speaker 2: price we use so much again so then puts a
Speaker 2: bit less pressure on this chemistry. I think big push
Speaker 2: alls we have seen for out of P and quickly
Speaker 2: has been because the Nickel and Cobert price went up
Speaker 2: so high. Course next to lithium too.
Speaker 3: And about solid state solid state, we had so many
Speaker 3: promises five years ago. For me, solid state is a
Speaker 3: bit like pov skyte for solar. You know, people talk
Speaker 3: about it, but you never see it. But of course
Speaker 3: we we we is it aii or we we we jarred.
Speaker 2: Your dad's definitely. I think it's an interesting perspective. I
Speaker 2: think if especially connected to solar, I think solid states,
Speaker 2: it's other companies in China. They have seen consortium be
Speaker 2: built with the biggest players working together and even saying,
Speaker 2: you know, they need looking at a decade or it
Speaker 2: can be less, but to really commercialize that. And we
Speaker 2: have seen, of course a couple of companies announcing kind
Speaker 2: of some semi solid something. Often we have seen they're
Speaker 2: focusing then more on silicon write notes rather than with
Speaker 2: the metal, which of course is why you would do it.
Speaker 2: Do you want to make solid state where you don't
Speaker 2: do as much as improvement by not using, for example,
Speaker 2: with the metals, I don't know. I actually tend to
Speaker 2: say I still see some of at fifty to fifty
Speaker 2: how it will kind of crystallize to it to stay
Speaker 2: with maybe some solid topic. Yeah, solid state is still
Speaker 2: a fascinating topic, but it's not needed I think one
Speaker 2: to scale up wide batteries. I think it's nice to
Speaker 2: have if it ends up and it's a great you know,
Speaker 2: it would be a great addition to the portfolio. But
Speaker 2: I think it's not a blocker. I think it's a
Speaker 2: real challenge to incorporate in your forecast for companies because
Speaker 2: a lot of companies keep looking for the special edge,
Speaker 2: especially in Europe, right because you want to offer something
Speaker 2: specific which kind of can justify, for example, higher costs
Speaker 2: if you have it in Europe. So I think Soliday
Speaker 2: was kind of this hope. But of course Asia and
Speaker 2: China and these you know, a lot of companies investing
Speaker 2: also as much or maybe even more money now to
Speaker 2: protect themselves and building on this technology. Yeah, if it
Speaker 2: works out, they wigh. Some people hope it will. The
Speaker 2: question will still be who will actually commercialize at first
Speaker 2: and at what level? Yeah, I'm still a bit unclear.
Speaker 3: Did you see a technological path towards ten dollar Poky?
Speaker 3: What hour? Or you're going to have like physical limits
Speaker 3: at some point and there is a bit of point
Speaker 3: where you just won't see the price going down.
Speaker 2: There is some limits right off of materials, I would say,
Speaker 2: really there, but you can and theory can do quite
Speaker 2: a bit of reduction also. So in mind we've seen
Speaker 2: long term, we have we everything discussion, right, Can you
Speaker 2: go to the twenty five mark? I think there is
Speaker 2: there is routes to that. Will it work is a question. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a physical limit if it's not air you're driving with.
Speaker 2: I think ten would be quite ambitious. I haven't heard
Speaker 2: this number yet.
Speaker 3: Very clear, we.
Speaker 1: Don't need to get there. If we're talking about sorry,
Speaker 1: electrification of vehicles, like if you're able to get a
Speaker 1: battery at fifty cents, put a pack on top of it,
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong. You're at price comparaity with
Speaker 1: the internal compostion engine across all ranges of cars.
Speaker 2: And I think we already have seen it, right, like
Speaker 2: in China where most of the vehicles are cheaper in
Speaker 2: the electric configuration are very cheap in China. If there
Speaker 2: was a study from Bloomberg Energy Finance, I think about
Speaker 2: said that more than half the vehicles now offered as
Speaker 2: a both BAF and ICEE configuration, the BETH would be
Speaker 2: cheaper in China. Right now.
Speaker 3: It's a good beat about battery associates and what you're
Speaker 3: doing done in unique but I guess also all over
Speaker 3: the world, what's the main demand of your clients in
Speaker 3: terms of expertise.
Speaker 2: White studying Battery Sociates, right, And I think it's really
Speaker 2: having the strong belief that this industry is very crucial
Speaker 2: about decarbonization from ability and energy and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of open question marks to make this work, and I
Speaker 2: think collaboration is a key one there, but also people
Speaker 2: and technology. So that's why Battery and Associates clientele. We
Speaker 2: have a lot of automotive customers, a lot of government clients, suppliers.
Speaker 2: It's really a mix, as you said, quite globally dispersed.
Speaker 2: We do advising consulting all of major brand names, but
Speaker 2: also what we do we start on is really this
Speaker 2: topic of training then really equipping people with knowledge but
Speaker 2: also with the network, and that's why we created something
Speaker 2: called the Battery MBA. We're running now for I think
Speaker 2: close to four years, which is really exciting. In over
Speaker 2: five nine people have participated from you know, all of
Speaker 2: the major names from Testa, CEDL, Volkswagen, et cetera, but
Speaker 2: in over sixty countries at this point and especially a
Speaker 2: lot of leadership. The idea was really bring the latest
Speaker 2: industry knowledge to these people because I think a lot
Speaker 2: you can maybe find those academic knowledge et cetera, But
Speaker 2: really why they're the industry insights and not just one
Speaker 2: step of the battery valid chain, but the full value chain,
Speaker 2: because as we just discussed earlier, right like why is
Speaker 2: the price factuation and these kind of things, you really
Speaker 2: have to look at the value change to understand things.
Speaker 2: And then regulatory understand you have to understand how is
Speaker 2: a mind connected to you know, your technology, and how's
Speaker 2: your technology affecting what minds you might want to open?
Speaker 2: And also then what is recycling will.
Speaker 1: Do with this?
Speaker 2: What will your regulations like the European but regulation and
Speaker 2: other irregulations around the world to impact that. What are
Speaker 2: geopolitical trends you have to take into accounts. So really
Speaker 2: equipping people with the knowledge to make a good decision,
Speaker 2: that's something I'm personally passionate about and I think knowledge
Speaker 2: is a key, but also a network is key to
Speaker 2: make this work.
Speaker 3: What do you say is very interesting because there is
Speaker 3: a lot of nervousness around the leadership of China, quite
Speaker 3: some in Europe, a lot in the US. But inside
Speaker 3: your program you would see those three blocks, communicate, collaborate
Speaker 3: or probably do have a too much kumbay our vision
Speaker 3: of the world.
Speaker 2: There's an individual level wide in this organization level just
Speaker 2: to cover as a split. Right. So at the moment
Speaker 2: in the program, we have about fifty percent from Europe,
Speaker 2: twenty five percent from North America, and then about teventy
Speaker 2: five percent, which is against sixty countries al so in
Speaker 2: China of course being one of them. We have business
Speaker 2: partner in China. Then looking at the batterlell chain, about
Speaker 2: ninety percent is in China's for batteries. So if you
Speaker 2: want to understand it and really you know, have the
Speaker 2: state of the art and latest insights, it's pretty much
Speaker 2: impossible to operate without China right now, right and without
Speaker 2: having seccess especially what our lessons learned. But I think
Speaker 2: the seal lot of interest from Chinese players to actually
Speaker 2: export their knowledge abroad and it can be all kinds
Speaker 2: of ways from licensing IP insights. So example, I think,
Speaker 2: if you want latest example, what we're currently working on
Speaker 2: with all of our business partners in China is to
Speaker 2: do process engineer training outside of China. What do we
Speaker 2: mean with that?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: So we have people who have run the factories you know,
Speaker 2: with Panasonic, with Tesla, with CTL with Neil with with
Speaker 2: companies who are managed to scale up their production, and
Speaker 2: how can we use this knowledge and bring us to
Speaker 2: other organizations which are maybe struggling with that right now
Speaker 2: and also are lacking the talent and the knowledge and
Speaker 2: like people with the right skill set and knowledge space
Speaker 2: to make it work. And that means reducing scrap rates,
Speaker 2: ramping up production quicker, things like that, getting costs down,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And that's something where we have, for example,
Speaker 2: partners in China because they have this knowledge, then there's
Speaker 2: a lot of knowledge it's really hard to find outside
Speaker 2: of China, and of course other regions where we also
Speaker 2: collaborate with is Japan, Korea. But I think especially having
Speaker 2: this manufacturing expertise, the knowledge base over decades, I think
Speaker 2: is very important and it's something media we try now
Speaker 2: to make more accessible worldwide. And we have partners in
Speaker 2: China things similar and a lot of them have been working, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, they've been exported to US, to Europe and
Speaker 2: they worked in the European and in the US factories
Speaker 2: as well. Because don't get me wrong, I think all
Speaker 2: of these will need the same talent, right, So a
Speaker 2: lot of these talents are moving around the world. And
Speaker 2: I quite open mind on that too.
Speaker 1: The irony of what you're saying here, because we've spent
Speaker 1: if you'd like to say, the last thirty years, actually
Speaker 1: sending China technology know how, etcetera, et cetera. And in
Speaker 1: this core area for the future of a let's say,
Speaker 1: core industry in Europe, which is the automobile industry, we've
Speaker 1: been sleeping. We now have to go and import that
Speaker 1: know how from China. And also, by the way, the
Speaker 1: other thing you said was not just to know how,
Speaker 1: but also technology licensing, et cetera, et cetera. It leads
Speaker 1: me to the question is what's the hope for the
Speaker 1: future of battery production in the Western world?
Speaker 2: Still there? And I think that is sort of innovation
Speaker 2: we see in a vative approaches. One is really strategically
Speaker 2: right if you think about jobs and you can look
Speaker 2: at studies and seeing how many jobs I needed in
Speaker 2: batteries and how many will you know, disappear by a
Speaker 2: transition to bev right and this can be quite balanced.
Speaker 2: But this requires the batteries to produce being produced in Europe,
Speaker 2: otherwise it won't happen. Right, So if you want to
Speaker 2: stay somewhere there, and you want to kind of localize
Speaker 2: the supply chain more to kind of keep this balance
Speaker 2: of jobs in Europe. That's one, right, and as a
Speaker 2: strategic that's more like a government incentive strategy. From a
Speaker 2: whole perspective, again, we see a lot of the Chinese
Speaker 2: and Asian companies going to Europe to produce here. There
Speaker 2: might maybe some of the most aggressive IBC companies building
Speaker 2: you know, vision ac publicly and ancying you want to
Speaker 2: build thirty KI effectives around the world, right, So there
Speaker 2: we do on expansion Mode, CTL and others, and they're
Speaker 2: of course looking also to build them everywhere close to
Speaker 2: the customer base. And I think that's great. I think
Speaker 2: we need that because otherwise the approach to just importing
Speaker 2: and shipping and we have local players and I think
Speaker 2: you spoke with it also about that in previous podcasts,
Speaker 2: you know, Northwold and others, and it's not easy. They're
Speaker 2: learning that. So if we can speed up looking other
Speaker 2: way around. Again, when I visited China and the players
Speaker 2: not ask the wow, you have all of these things implemented.
Speaker 2: Where did you learn these things from? They're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we learned this from BMW. We learned this from these companies.
Speaker 2: They came to us, they showed us their ways. We
Speaker 2: incorporated and now we're doing this and then going back right.
Speaker 2: So as long as we're both humble on both ends
Speaker 2: to learn from each other and incorporate what works and
Speaker 2: scale it up, I think that's the way to do it.
Speaker 2: That's never lost. And I think we seem the same
Speaker 2: as China. Right. If China would have had this thought
Speaker 2: of like we will always keep it, you know, in
Speaker 2: Europe we only will implement and build what they tell us,
Speaker 2: then they wouldn't be there where they are now in batteries, right.
Speaker 2: And I think the same way can go other around
Speaker 2: as well. And I'm very committed to make this a
Speaker 2: that's also bringing back to battery SOOCI it's right, very
Speaker 2: committed to make this a global success story where all
Speaker 2: the regions can benefit from it. And that goes way
Speaker 2: beyond Europe and China. We're talking Indonesia, we're talking Philip
Speaker 2: a lot of other regions around the world. India big
Speaker 2: topic air farm. I'm going to be there again shortly.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of areas who are working on
Speaker 2: how can they be part of this success story, and
Speaker 2: we're here to kind of smooth out a bit of
Speaker 2: the battery roller coast if we started with, because we
Speaker 2: all want to learn from each other and take the
Speaker 2: learnings rather than trying to do really do expensive learnings again.
Speaker 2: Because if your company and says I want to learn
Speaker 2: all of this again and do all of the expensive mistakes,
Speaker 2: and they're smarter and more effective ways.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I love your vision actually because well
Speaker 1: it's also I think has a little bit of a
Speaker 1: geopolitical lesson in it as well, which is we have
Speaker 1: to learn to compete and cooperate with each other across
Speaker 1: the world. That phrase competition comes to my mind in
Speaker 1: this a new way of thinking about this, and I
Speaker 1: think it's good for everyone. And we have seen this.
Speaker 2: I mean, China became is own local market and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of competition now locally and that's why they're
Speaker 2: you know, progressing so fast because they have tremendous pressure internally,
Speaker 2: you know, having again globe well, you know, more competition,
Speaker 2: I think be great. There's a lot of really amazing
Speaker 2: work happening all around the world in batteries. I'm always
Speaker 2: blown away of these innovative concepts et cetera, which are
Speaker 2: coming up. But scale is one of these things where
Speaker 2: again China and of course all SOO, Japan and Career
Speaker 2: really has done a lot. I still have hope for
Speaker 2: Europe in the US and other regions on that too,
Speaker 2: if there's a lot of commitment on it.
Speaker 3: Well, Simon, this is a wonderful vision that we share.
Speaker 3: I don't think China is the enemy. I think Russian
Speaker 3: and oil is the enemy. But that's just me or
Speaker 3: we job, I don't know. You tell me, Simon. I
Speaker 3: love the work that you're doing at Battery Associates. In conclusion,
Speaker 3: how do you see your company in three to five years.
Speaker 2: We're going to be much more involved again on helping
Speaker 2: organization to really truly scale. We have worked a lot
Speaker 2: on with leadership and getting leadership equipped, and we think
Speaker 2: we going to keep doing that. We're really working further
Speaker 2: with say factories and you know, getting the knowledge in
Speaker 2: there which they require for example here in our training
Speaker 2: post engineers, et cetera. Getting the blueprints in I think
Speaker 2: that's also long term vision which really excited for We're
Speaker 2: also launching our own curve of technology like hardwer software
Speaker 2: for battery testing, which really is to support the industry
Speaker 2: there as well. So I think that's something we also
Speaker 2: personally quite excited about. And I think another thing, we
Speaker 2: can see more and more regions engaging more seriously in
Speaker 2: this transition, recially as sort of countries like we've seen
Speaker 2: in Indonesia as a region which has done a lot
Speaker 2: on the nickel topic than the mining and really interesting
Speaker 2: how they've approached it. We see other regions like Philippines, India,
Speaker 2: many other regions and a lot of African countries trying
Speaker 2: to further engage. So I think that's something I can
Speaker 2: just see keep rumping up. And then the question is
Speaker 2: again how to incorporate all of this and make this
Speaker 2: a really great success story. And for me always looking
Speaker 2: at lessons learned, and I think that's one thing I
Speaker 2: really appreciate about you in the work you're doing on
Speaker 2: the education you're doing through this podcast to also look
Speaker 2: at other industries. You brought up SOLA in the beginning.
Speaker 2: Where can we take the lessons learned from other industries
Speaker 2: but also from other regions. And I think these two together,
Speaker 2: I'm personal so passionate about, just very excited to also
Speaker 2: push forward in the battery industry.
Speaker 1: Great Simon lovely vision about the future.
Speaker 3: Of this Simon, thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 3: the show. Thanks for me well, y'all. Any thoughts about
Speaker 3: our conversation with Simon.
Speaker 1: And I'd like to have your conclusions, because my friend,
Speaker 1: I know Simon in a long, long while at this
Speaker 1: point in time, actually even at some point I was
Speaker 1: actually teaching on his MBA program. So I like what
Speaker 1: these guys doing, right, I like what he does. I
Speaker 1: love the energy of his team, and you know he's
Speaker 1: doing great stuff.
Speaker 3: Look my conclusion, it's all about human capital and the
Speaker 3: fact that Simon and better associates of clients around the world,
Speaker 3: and that gen Z is defying all the politicians who
Speaker 3: are anti this, anti that let's put buyers and that
Speaker 3: young generation is lowing buyers because let's face it, China
Speaker 3: has benefited for decades from our technology and right now,
Speaker 3: let's not be shy. Let's emulate their playbook. It will
Speaker 3: be more efficient in the long term than lobbying regulators, winging,
Speaker 3: asking for tarry for subsidies. Thanks to Simon, we can
Speaker 3: take the best from China and not try to reinvent
Speaker 3: the wheel.
Speaker 1: With no choice, no choice. If you think in the
Speaker 1: battery space. The Asians, but in particularly the Chinese, are
Speaker 1: just so far ahead of what we have in Europe
Speaker 1: and North America. No choice but to cooperation.
Speaker 3: And when you know, when you talk about over capacity
Speaker 3: or capacity called that the battery coaster, never forget that
Speaker 3: in a fast going market chi short term demand is
Speaker 3: generally overstated, while long term demand is generally understated. So
Speaker 3: I have no problem with over investments in batteries.
Speaker 1: I agree totally. Anya agree totally.
Speaker 3: Any final thoughts back.
Speaker 1: To actually when I started the podcast was actually people
Speaker 1: might say, well, why you keep talking about batteries, and
Speaker 1: I go back to it. It's one of the technologies
Speaker 1: that's revolutionizing our energy space, and so you ignore it
Speaker 1: your peril. But we talked about this revolutionizing the wrong.
Speaker 1: I think we both of us agreed it's revolutionizing the
Speaker 1: EV space. But I think what's happening in stationary storage
Speaker 1: is really interesting because we went back in three years
Speaker 1: ago we were talking about batteries. We'd be saying, ah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you put the TMI in in for one hour batteries,
Speaker 1: and ah yeah, you know, there's long term storage. It's
Speaker 1: going to be other technologies and what you're saying is
Speaker 1: guys are putting in one hour storage three years ago
Speaker 1: are now taking that same plant and guess what they're doing.
Speaker 1: They're putting a new capacity beside it and they go
Speaker 1: to four hours. And that just gives an idea of
Speaker 1: the cost reductions that have happened and also down of
Speaker 1: the technology improvements in that space. And it's maybe in
Speaker 1: two years ago, we're talking about six hours or eight hours, right.
Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is, because I've read a lot
Speaker 3: of those literature of the long joytionarities storage, is that
Speaker 3: ninety six percent of the use case are below eight hours.
Speaker 3: So if Lecha Mayan can solve any storage issue below
Speaker 3: eight hours, the four percent remaining, okay, we'll find something.
Speaker 3: But in my opinion, the market for longer storage is
Speaker 3: shrinking in front of our eyes because Leja Min's eating
Speaker 3: the lunch.
Speaker 2: I agree totally.
Speaker 1: I found great coldly.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's a great conversation, Chard, I'll talk to you
Speaker 3: next week.
Speaker 1: Look forward to my friend. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe
Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, Spotify for the platform of your choice.