WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:10.080 You're listening to Redefining Energy. 2 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:12.560 Your co hosts from. 3 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:15.560 Berlin Gerard Reave and from London. 4 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:20.440 Laurent Sag Today on really for an energy job. We're 5 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:24.120 going to talk about batteries again, but is the angle 6 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:25.719 of the human capital. 7 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.839 Don't say bachies again. Bateries are revolutionize in our world, 8 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:32.200 my friend. We have to keep talking about them. 9 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:36.359 Yeah. The Batlin fastactu are currently is growing, I don't know, 10 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.399 three or four times faster than the solar industry. We 11 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.320 have records beaten daily. I saw that in August for 12 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:46.920 the first time. Listen to this. Chinese battery factories past 13 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:49.600 one hundred what our production mark? 14 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:50.399 Wow? 15 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.920 Amazing. Meanwhile Northwold's struggling for one giga what our Yeah. 16 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.079 I was looking at the results recently on Bloomberg negative 17 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.280 ghostm Margins. That says everything. 18 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:05.760 The price are collapsing, chemistries are changing. We've already done 19 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:08.719 an episode last months on it. This time we said 20 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.599 let's bring an expert who really is in the thick. 21 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.120 Of it, and Lron We've got a great guest on 22 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:17.920 guy I've actually known for a long long while, the 23 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.719 founder and chair of a very interesting business called battery Associates, 24 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:26.439 So it's great to have Simon and Gelke onto the show. 25 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:31.359 This young German company has been developing a world class 26 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:36.359 expertise on how to train the future workforce, how to 27 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:40.480 build giga factory, how to optimize them. They've got great 28 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:46.560 clients Tesla, Cattle, Polswagen and so Better Associates, Big the 29 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:47.760 MIT of Batteries. 30 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.200 Good partner, so let's why don't we bring him on 31 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:50.560 the show. 32 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:52.719 Simon, Welcome to the show. 33 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:54.799 Thanks for having me. Great to have you. 34 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:56.239 Well, let's kick off. 35 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.519 We're going to talk about the Baschari coaster, which is 36 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.560 obviously the up and down of the battery industry. Simon, 37 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.239 what's your take on twenty twenty four and what's going 38 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:06.000 on in batteries. 39 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.280 It's a fascinating time. We have seen massive price factoration, 40 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:12.719 especially on the raw material site for the last years 41 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:14.800 and which has been really I think putting off stress. 42 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:16.759 But then this year we really have seen a massive 43 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.439 drop in cell price as well as in the system 44 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.080 level prices for batteries, especially in China. You know, we're 45 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:26.520 going down to the fifty dollars per kilar our price mark, 46 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:28.439 which I think has been one of these holy grails. 47 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:29.879 I think many of us have been looking forward to. 48 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:32.199 Of course there's new ances to it if you look 49 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:33.719 at the world market, et cetera, and also on the 50 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.240 chemistry of course out of p et cetera. But after 51 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:40.360 a time where the entire conversation was it's too expensive, 52 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.039 it's getting too expensive, there's a shortage, et cetera, we're 53 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.199 going to a time where it becomes really cheap compared 54 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:48.479 to what it was about a year ago. So I 55 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:50.520 think that's just something really fascinating. 56 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.199 Simon, just to put into perspective what fifty dollars a 57 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.400 killer WAUR means, just give you an idea where it was, 58 00:02:57.479 --> 00:02:59.719 maybe even five years ago, what it was a year ago, 59 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:02.759 why that was the As you say, it's almost like 60 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:04.120 a holy grail within the industry. 61 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:06.479 To hit that number. I mean that's really looking at 62 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.400 kind of like about half in about a year's time, 63 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:10.759 which is I think we significant. And if you look 64 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:12.199 at in the early days, we look at you know, 65 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:15.039 overdo a thousand and all particular hour and then of 66 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:18.719 course reduced quite quickly. We have usually seen reductions right 67 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:21.039 over the last few years, we have seen what'd say, 68 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:22.879 I want twenty percent, of course go up to thirty 69 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:25.639 five and down to six percent cost reduction per year, 70 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:27.159 and there also has been a year we actually had 71 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:29.520 the first time a price increase. Ever really in the 72 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:31.439 last kind of decades we have been kind of observing 73 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.199 the price reductions. So this was due to a higher 74 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:36.960 mature costs right about it, and now one two years ago. 75 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:39.680 But yeah, now we're looking at halfing right really quickly. 76 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.319 And of course this is of data of course based 77 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.319 on you know, what different companies getting for different agreements, 78 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:47.479 et cetera. But we have been visiting you know, ats 79 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.000 of companies in China more recently, and a lot of 80 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.520 them reported actually because the pressure is so high, there's 81 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.000 so many cells available, they would sell lot of their 82 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:57.319 cells at cost. And that's already a good case for them, 83 00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.840 because otherwise they would lose money because they're not running 84 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.960 their factories. Because EDFP and China has been so competitive 85 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.719 because so many lines came online that the cost just 86 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.360 really you know, went down to cost at cost level 87 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:10.919 and the profits have really been dropping even further. 88 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:12.240 Simon. 89 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.080 That sounds a little bit like the solar industry over 90 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:16.120 the last ten years. 91 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:17.279 And I don't know if. 92 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:18.879 I want to put my money into it. 93 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:20.639 It's a real challenge we have, you know, we know 94 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.120 the other form a while back, so we have had 95 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:25.040 these discussions for some time. Yeah, it's a challenge for 96 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:27.360 the world market if you kind of want to now 97 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.160 enter the battery game, Like what's the number you're actually 98 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.480 working on? You say, now, okay, I'm going to sell 99 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:35.279 myself to this price point, and suddenly somewhere else they're 100 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:37.959 getting produced much cheaper. How do I going to compete 101 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:40.120 with that? But of course, and there's also right like 102 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.279 the cost and the price of it. One is like 103 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.000 what are the margins people having and what's the local 104 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.319 pressure you on one hand, what it means right now, 105 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.120 a lot of these companies in China right they're looking 106 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.920 at expanding. That's the one strategy they have. They have 107 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:54.879 to go overseas because locally it's too competitive, which of 108 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:56.399 course is then what you mentioned is solar is a 109 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.079 big issue. But even pretty much all of the companies 110 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.600 that spoke there as saying this is not sustainable how 111 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.360 it is currently, so they're going to be probably consolidation. 112 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.360 It's not going to work this way. And they also think, 113 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:08.920 you know, let's give you an idea right this price 114 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.360 point right now, right we're looking at something people talking 115 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.800 about fifty dollars par kilo hour at least what they 116 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.439 told me what they think it's going to go up 117 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.600 again about eighty dollars per kilo hour for you know, 118 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:21.000 lethumon LFP properly, and then maybe Solio mirond can come 119 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:22.800 soup in and end up around to fifty dollars par 120 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:25.360 kiled hour as one example. They're also trying to figure 121 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:27.399 it out. But I'm with you. I think the challenge 122 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.879 is going to be how to stay competitive and not 123 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.160 getting it reeded out the market in this really intense 124 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.040 low cost times. And I think they've seen similar things 125 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:37.920 in solar and I think that's what they're hinting at. 126 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:40.600 Well, this is why I definitely always talked about the 127 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.639 solar coaster for a long, long while, and that's why 128 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.040 I think it's the battery coasters what we're seeing. 129 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:49.480 Now, Simon, when we look at a price collapse. You 130 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:52.439 mentioned lithium, and the price of lithium has gone down, 131 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:56.319 and of course it's LFP because so nobody cares about 132 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.759 nikio or cobalt anymore. Or maybe someone say that you Okay, fine, 133 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.360 So that's why we have an ex spelt like you 134 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.800 so you can contrady my platitudes. Is it the volume, 135 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:12.480 is it the technology that is getting better? Is it 136 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.959 the manufacturing that's getting better? How can you explain? Because 137 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.199 in solar we now know how the price went, you know, 138 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.519 ten cents of what and of course when it was 139 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.800 what people say, what you know it's gonna go back up? 140 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.160 We can't, we can't do any think better. What's your explanation. 141 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:31.959 There's a range of factors, right, and I think you're 142 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:33.839 already touched on a cup of them. Of course, one 143 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.600 we talk them varmaterial costs, which have been relaxing, and 144 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.120 I think there's a combination. One is there has been 145 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.319 in a shortage twitch has been highly anticipated, there was 146 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.639 some speculation. There's all different things, right, we have going 147 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:45.920 into that. Also, of course the demand has been lower, 148 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.319 right like if he demand has been lower than anticipated 149 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.319 but a year ago. So there has been much more 150 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:53.120 BETH demand short term anticipated and we see right now. 151 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.519 And then of course also manufacturing why chemistry changes like 152 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.319 LFP being more cost effective there and IFP getting more 153 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.720 energy dense on the system level, there's been progressed innovation 154 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.199 there as well. Of course, also it has been subsacent parst. 155 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:07.600 So I think there's really like a mix of things. 156 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.040 Then local market competition, and I think also here we 157 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.439 should talk about the cells et cetera. Rights for example, 158 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.319 like the best market in China, Like it's one of 159 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.160 these things we're extremely competitive right now where the price 160 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.319 has really dropped a lot because it's kind of became 161 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.680 more and more of a commodity there. It's not all 162 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:24.839 the same chemistry, is all the same quality on the 163 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.199 same levels, right which experienced in the same things. Yeah, 164 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.000 I think it's really like a multitude of factors for 165 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:32.759 that which kind of playing into that. And I think 166 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.439 we haven't seen it all of them on the end 167 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.720 consumer market. But I think, of course I'm an end consumer. 168 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.639 It's fantastic, right we want these lower cost evs, so 169 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:42.439 I think any up from cost production there as great. 170 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:44.000 As we know it's a big part of the you know, 171 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.079 can be the biggest part of the EVP to have 172 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:49.399 the battery system. So I think having relaxation of you know, 173 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:53.199 material costs, innovation and technology, et cetera, is all great. 174 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:55.279 It's vially a mix again, I think we don't see 175 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.560 the squeeze to come up anytime soon. I think of 176 00:07:58.079 --> 00:07:59.879 more materials at least of what we're kind of hearing. 177 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.160 But I think there's still questions kind of what's going 178 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:05.199 to be the real price point then, you know, in 179 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:08.759 Europe versus China or in the US, right because some 180 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:10.720 of these prices are also a bit more local than 181 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:11.360 their global. 182 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.279 Let's talk a bit about the chemistry. We have the 183 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:19.199 feeling that LFP, you know, a bit like monocrystal line 184 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:24.199 for solar's becoming like the standard. Is it something you 185 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:26.600 see as well for the next five years, or talk 186 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:28.439 about briefly about studium. 187 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.920 And by the way, I just want to just say 188 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:32.919 one thing on top of that. Lauran used the word we. 189 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.360 What he should say, is I not way because I 190 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.600 don't agree with him, but sorry, go on, Simon, and 191 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:39.639 I know you don't agree with them. 192 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.080 And I think it's really one of these things. LFP 193 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.600 is a tremendous, exciting rollercoast story. In some way, not 194 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:48.879 too many years ago wasn't looked at the same rate 195 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:50.879 as now, and I think it got really popularized right 196 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.559 of course, especially in China. But then also I think 197 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:55.720 Tesla did a big waveype when they announced it will 198 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.080 have a larger share for LFP, and suddenly, you know, 199 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.480 we see high performance cars AFP, et cetera. So I'm 200 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:02.840 with you, Lauren, that it's a massive chunk right of 201 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.120 of bad ways going to LFP. And I think especially 202 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.919 for stationary we've seen also in China right like even 203 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.360 it became the standard and also like even legal and 204 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.240 regulatory topics on that right, so to have LFP for that, 205 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.039 so I think I'm with you. I think that there's 206 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:19.000 a big, big market there. I wouldn't completely underestimate NMC 207 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:23.000 chemistries either, just because one from a performance still performance 208 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.279 you can get and that's of course also for longer 209 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.039 range and things like that and some of the charging topics. 210 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:30.639 And then of course also that nickel again cobet the 211 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:33.159 price we use so much again so then puts a 212 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:35.639 bit less pressure on this chemistry. I think big push 213 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:38.039 alls we have seen for out of P and quickly 214 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:39.960 has been because the Nickel and Cobert price went up 215 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:41.720 so high. Course next to lithium too. 216 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.919 And about solid state solid state, we had so many 217 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:49.480 promises five years ago. For me, solid state is a 218 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.240 bit like pov skyte for solar. You know, people talk 219 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.600 about it, but you never see it. But of course 220 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.080 we we we is it aii or we we we jarred. 221 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:06.120 Your dad's definitely. I think it's an interesting perspective. I 222 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.279 think if especially connected to solar, I think solid states, 223 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:12.240 it's other companies in China. They have seen consortium be 224 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:15.000 built with the biggest players working together and even saying, 225 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:16.960 you know, they need looking at a decade or it 226 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:19.519 can be less, but to really commercialize that. And we 227 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.679 have seen, of course a couple of companies announcing kind 228 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:24.919 of some semi solid something. Often we have seen they're 229 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.240 focusing then more on silicon write notes rather than with 230 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:29.360 the metal, which of course is why you would do it. 231 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:31.720 Do you want to make solid state where you don't 232 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.120 do as much as improvement by not using, for example, 233 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.639 with the metals, I don't know. I actually tend to 234 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.480 say I still see some of at fifty to fifty 235 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.000 how it will kind of crystallize to it to stay 236 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:44.039 with maybe some solid topic. Yeah, solid state is still 237 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.480 a fascinating topic, but it's not needed I think one 238 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:50.039 to scale up wide batteries. I think it's nice to 239 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:51.679 have if it ends up and it's a great you know, 240 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.600 it would be a great addition to the portfolio. But 241 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:56.679 I think it's not a blocker. I think it's a 242 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:01.759 real challenge to incorporate in your forecast for companies because 243 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:03.879 a lot of companies keep looking for the special edge, 244 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.080 especially in Europe, right because you want to offer something 245 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:09.200 specific which kind of can justify, for example, higher costs 246 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.759 if you have it in Europe. So I think Soliday 247 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.120 was kind of this hope. But of course Asia and 248 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.240 China and these you know, a lot of companies investing 249 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.120 also as much or maybe even more money now to 250 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:22.679 protect themselves and building on this technology. Yeah, if it 251 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.639 works out, they wigh. Some people hope it will. The 252 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:28.080 question will still be who will actually commercialize at first 253 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.200 and at what level? Yeah, I'm still a bit unclear. 254 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.799 Did you see a technological path towards ten dollar Poky? 255 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.519 What hour? Or you're going to have like physical limits 256 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.600 at some point and there is a bit of point 257 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.159 where you just won't see the price going down. 258 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:45.080 There is some limits right off of materials, I would say, 259 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.159 really there, but you can and theory can do quite 260 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.960 a bit of reduction also. So in mind we've seen 261 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:53.759 long term, we have we everything discussion, right, Can you 262 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:55.960 go to the twenty five mark? I think there is 263 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.960 there is routes to that. Will it work is a question. Yeah, 264 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.120 there's a physical limit if it's not air you're driving with. 265 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.559 I think ten would be quite ambitious. I haven't heard 266 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:04.399 this number yet. 267 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:05.440 Very clear, we. 268 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.799 Don't need to get there. If we're talking about sorry, 269 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.960 electrification of vehicles, like if you're able to get a 270 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.279 battery at fifty cents, put a pack on top of it, 271 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:18.080 Correct me if I'm wrong. You're at price comparaity with 272 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.679 the internal compostion engine across all ranges of cars. 273 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:23.360 And I think we already have seen it, right, like 274 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:26.320 in China where most of the vehicles are cheaper in 275 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.559 the electric configuration are very cheap in China. If there 276 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.960 was a study from Bloomberg Energy Finance, I think about 277 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:34.759 said that more than half the vehicles now offered as 278 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.399 a both BAF and ICEE configuration, the BETH would be 279 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:38.519 cheaper in China. Right now. 280 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.960 It's a good beat about battery associates and what you're 281 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.120 doing done in unique but I guess also all over 282 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.480 the world, what's the main demand of your clients in 283 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:50.480 terms of expertise. 284 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.600 White studying Battery Sociates, right, And I think it's really 285 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.080 having the strong belief that this industry is very crucial 286 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.159 about decarbonization from ability and energy and there's a lot 287 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.320 of open question marks to make this work, and I 288 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.200 think collaboration is a key one there, but also people 289 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.240 and technology. So that's why Battery and Associates clientele. We 290 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.039 have a lot of automotive customers, a lot of government clients, suppliers. 291 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.000 It's really a mix, as you said, quite globally dispersed. 292 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:17.360 We do advising consulting all of major brand names, but 293 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.480 also what we do we start on is really this 294 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.360 topic of training then really equipping people with knowledge but 295 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:25.960 also with the network, and that's why we created something 296 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.240 called the Battery MBA. We're running now for I think 297 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.039 close to four years, which is really exciting. In over 298 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.279 five nine people have participated from you know, all of 299 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.399 the major names from Testa, CEDL, Volkswagen, et cetera, but 300 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.240 in over sixty countries at this point and especially a 301 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.279 lot of leadership. The idea was really bring the latest 302 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.000 industry knowledge to these people because I think a lot 303 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.840 you can maybe find those academic knowledge et cetera, But 304 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:49.080 really why they're the industry insights and not just one 305 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.399 step of the battery valid chain, but the full value chain, 306 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.960 because as we just discussed earlier, right like why is 307 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.559 the price factuation and these kind of things, you really 308 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.519 have to look at the value change to understand things. 309 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.759 And then regulatory understand you have to understand how is 310 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.519 a mind connected to you know, your technology, and how's 311 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:06.799 your technology affecting what minds you might want to open? 312 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.080 And also then what is recycling will. 313 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:09.240 Do with this? 314 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:11.879 What will your regulations like the European but regulation and 315 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.679 other irregulations around the world to impact that. What are 316 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:16.960 geopolitical trends you have to take into accounts. So really 317 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:20.080 equipping people with the knowledge to make a good decision, 318 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:23.279 that's something I'm personally passionate about and I think knowledge 319 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:24.960 is a key, but also a network is key to 320 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:25.559 make this work. 321 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:27.879 What do you say is very interesting because there is 322 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:32.320 a lot of nervousness around the leadership of China, quite 323 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:36.039 some in Europe, a lot in the US. But inside 324 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:41.039 your program you would see those three blocks, communicate, collaborate 325 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:44.639 or probably do have a too much kumbay our vision 326 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:45.559 of the world. 327 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.360 There's an individual level wide in this organization level just 328 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.039 to cover as a split. Right. So at the moment 329 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.039 in the program, we have about fifty percent from Europe, 330 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.879 twenty five percent from North America, and then about teventy 331 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.080 five percent, which is against sixty countries al so in 332 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.559 China of course being one of them. We have business 333 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.200 partner in China. Then looking at the batterlell chain, about 334 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.759 ninety percent is in China's for batteries. So if you 335 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:07.159 want to understand it and really you know, have the 336 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.840 state of the art and latest insights, it's pretty much 337 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.960 impossible to operate without China right now, right and without 338 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.960 having seccess especially what our lessons learned. But I think 339 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:19.039 the seal lot of interest from Chinese players to actually 340 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.879 export their knowledge abroad and it can be all kinds 341 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:25.720 of ways from licensing IP insights. So example, I think, 342 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:27.679 if you want latest example, what we're currently working on 343 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:29.519 with all of our business partners in China is to 344 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.000 do process engineer training outside of China. What do we 345 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:33.480 mean with that? 346 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:33.720 Right? 347 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.080 So we have people who have run the factories you know, 348 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:40.120 with Panasonic, with Tesla, with CTL with Neil with with 349 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.960 companies who are managed to scale up their production, and 350 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.039 how can we use this knowledge and bring us to 351 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.759 other organizations which are maybe struggling with that right now 352 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.320 and also are lacking the talent and the knowledge and 353 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.720 like people with the right skill set and knowledge space 354 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.039 to make it work. And that means reducing scrap rates, 355 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.320 ramping up production quicker, things like that, getting costs down, 356 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.879 et cetera. And that's something where we have, for example, 357 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.200 partners in China because they have this knowledge, then there's 358 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.039 a lot of knowledge it's really hard to find outside 359 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:10.960 of China, and of course other regions where we also 360 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.279 collaborate with is Japan, Korea. But I think especially having 361 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.440 this manufacturing expertise, the knowledge base over decades, I think 362 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.440 is very important and it's something media we try now 363 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.639 to make more accessible worldwide. And we have partners in 364 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.320 China things similar and a lot of them have been working, right, 365 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.360 I mean, they've been exported to US, to Europe and 366 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.440 they worked in the European and in the US factories 367 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:32.600 as well. Because don't get me wrong, I think all 368 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.679 of these will need the same talent, right, So a 369 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:36.240 lot of these talents are moving around the world. And 370 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.000 I quite open mind on that too. 371 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.600 The irony of what you're saying here, because we've spent 372 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.559 if you'd like to say, the last thirty years, actually 373 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:49.799 sending China technology know how, etcetera, et cetera. And in 374 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.879 this core area for the future of a let's say, 375 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.440 core industry in Europe, which is the automobile industry, we've 376 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.279 been sleeping. We now have to go and import that 377 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.200 know how from China. And also, by the way, the 378 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.920 other thing you said was not just to know how, 379 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.559 but also technology licensing, et cetera, et cetera. It leads 380 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:11.759 me to the question is what's the hope for the 381 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:14.119 future of battery production in the Western world? 382 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.720 Still there? And I think that is sort of innovation 383 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.960 we see in a vative approaches. One is really strategically 384 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.359 right if you think about jobs and you can look 385 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.599 at studies and seeing how many jobs I needed in 386 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.440 batteries and how many will you know, disappear by a 387 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.119 transition to bev right and this can be quite balanced. 388 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.200 But this requires the batteries to produce being produced in Europe, 389 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.599 otherwise it won't happen. Right, So if you want to 390 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:37.559 stay somewhere there, and you want to kind of localize 391 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.119 the supply chain more to kind of keep this balance 392 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:41.880 of jobs in Europe. That's one, right, and as a 393 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.079 strategic that's more like a government incentive strategy. From a 394 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.599 whole perspective, again, we see a lot of the Chinese 395 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.440 and Asian companies going to Europe to produce here. There 396 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:53.039 might maybe some of the most aggressive IBC companies building 397 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.799 you know, vision ac publicly and ancying you want to 398 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.000 build thirty KI effectives around the world, right, So there 399 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:01.559 we do on expansion Mode, CTL and others, and they're 400 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:03.400 of course looking also to build them everywhere close to 401 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.720