Speaker 1: What is up, fellas Echoes.
Speaker 2: I am Dan Valley coming at you with the one,
the only, this certified, fantabulous mister Grant Hughes. We are
here to finally record the Knicks off season look ahead.
If you're looking for coaching talk, we did something separate
on that because that will or already has been dated
by this point, so you can.
Speaker 1: Go check that out, Grant.
Speaker 2: Before we belly flop into the Knicks's offseason vitals, how
the heck are you doing?
Speaker 3: I know this is related to the coaching thing that
we're not going to talk about, but you know, we
did ask around to a lot of other podcast hosts
that were already employed to see if they could do
the next offseason preview, but we were rebuffed at every turn.
So you're stuck. You're stuck with us.
Speaker 2: I think next time we should maybe go look at
more up and comers that are more likely to say yes,
like a Bill Simmons, like somebody's really trying to cut
her to even get their start might be one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it, just we need someone to innovate. Really,
let's I mean.
Speaker 2: The guiding question here is, though, as we get into this,
is how close are the Knicks to winning an NBA title.
Speaker 1: They made it to the.
Speaker 2: Eastern Commerce Finals, and then they fired their head coach,
which suggests that they believe they're pretty darn close, and
that's not I mean, you made it to the Eastern
Conference finals. In theory, you're pretty darn close. The East
is only gonna get more wide open. But I think
the danger here, and this is the bigger thing we're
going to talk about, is to think that it was
just the head coach that was the problem, and Tibbs
was a problem. I don't think he was the biggest problem.
Being able to ask yourself, well, how do they get
better from here? Leading us into their offseason vitals, which
are it's gonna get a little sticky, folks. So they
project to start out around three point eight million below
the first apron, and that's about eight million below the
second apron. They must stay below the second apron to
use the Mini mid level exception of five point seven
million dollars. That is their best spending tool if they
can access it.
Speaker 1: They have.
Speaker 2: This projection includes eleven players under contract, so if you
fill out the roster with minimums like you don't have
the full Mini mid level exception to use.
Speaker 1: Now they do have that PJ.
Speaker 2: Tucker non guaranteed deal that will shave money off, but
then you're still creating an open roster spot.
Speaker 1: And PJ.
Speaker 2: Tucker's contract can be valuable because if the Knicks make
a trade, they basically have to send out more money
than they're receiving, and so just throwing PJ. Tucker's minimum
into the equation is the way to do that. They
do not have a real first round pick to trade.
If I hear one other person pitch me on the
Wizard's first rounder is having value. It is top ten protected,
and then it turns into two seconds. You can bet
on those seconds being in the thirties. That's great. It's
not a first round pick. They can also trade swaps
original swaps. They could trade swaps of the swaps if
anyone's interested.
Speaker 1: But they have swaps they.
Speaker 2: Could deal in twenty six, twenty thirty, and twenty thirty two.
Before we kind of dig into kind of extensions targets,
big questions, what do you think of the idea, like
if you're a team that has extra first rounders, and
then also what do you think about this from the
Knicks's perspective, if they forget about the twenty twenty six swap,
the Nigs are gonna be too good. But like, if
you're the Nets, or if you're a team that's just
at like the Oklahoma City a point, would you give
up a real first round pick for the right to
swap with the Knicks in twenty thirty or twenty thirty two,
like a more imminent first rounder like Brooklyn where they
have four first round picks and this year's or like
are you giving twenty seven and twenty eight or whatever
it is that they have to get like a distant
swap from the Knicks.
Speaker 3: I think I think I would, but yeah, it need
to be I don't think I give up a pick
I was confident was gonna be a lottery pick for example,
obviously not like a top you know, somewhere in the twenties.
I think makes sense just to bet on the upside,
and it would probably need to be a team like
the ones you mentioned that have like just they have
a volume of assets, and then the move from there
is to be like how do we turn these into
like fewer that have like massive upside Potentially, like if
you could get an unprotected swap in twenty thirty from
or thirty two from the Knicks, Like maybe that's a
maybe that's the number one pick or whatever, Like I'm
giving up stuff in the twenties for that, Like who knows, right,
I think I think that's about the range. But yeah,
I if it's like just I don't know, I don't
know why they're on my mind, but like the Spurs
have fourteen right in this draft in addition to number two.
It's like, I think I'd rather just have fourteen probably,
But if they.
Speaker 2: Actually Like in theory, though, what if the Knicks, And
this can go for any team where swap and you
probably want to be a good Like if you're the Bulls,
you really think you're gonna be better than anyone in twenty thirty?
Speaker 3: Like probably not, you'll be better than like roughly half
the teams in the league. But that's the best you
can do.
Speaker 2: I am curious as to, like, even if it's in
a trade where you're like trying to extract value for
teams to send to another team, Like if they were
just including the twenty thirty and twenty twenty thirty two
swaps on the table, I really feel like you could
get like teams to facilitate something you're not going to
get to your point, Like you're not gonna get the
Jazz's number five pick for that.
Speaker 1: I'm not under that delusion.
Speaker 2: But I think when you look at the way the
Knicks are built right now, they're not old, but they're
not super young. They can keep this core intact, but
like they're gonna run into in a couple of years,
if you know, looking at the Karl Anthony Towns and
ogn andob Salary specifically like they are and mchal Bridges
coming up on an extension we're gonna talk about that,
they are gonna have some realities that will recap them logistically.
So I think that those swaps are probably worth more
than people have credited. But the Knicks also, it depends
on what the coaching situation and their ethos is. But
what is actually moving those swaps for current first round
picks actually do. Yes, it's cost controlled talent, but are
you gonna play that talent.
Speaker 1: It's not like you try to develop Pukcom.
Speaker 2: Dottie and Tyler Kohlik and that was probably I'm not
saying either one of them were the answers, but I
think that was actually probably a pretty underrated like flaw
of the Knicks is that when you look at so
PBP play by play stats has these like low leverage
and medium leverage minutes filters, and that's ostensibly like the
possessions in a game that are going to impact the
outcome of winning the least, and the Knicks were like
did not play a lot of those possessions. I think
they were twenty fourth like combined. That's that's not like
great shakes, And it means that in theory, you didn't
weren't good enough to even if you wanted to develop
your players, you didn't have the margin for error to
throw in some of those youngsters. And so I think
that's part of the calculus too, if you did look
at moving these swaps for cost control talent.
Speaker 3: Now, now before we move on, I speaking of like
the rookies and and the Landry Shammets of the world
and different guys that like like shockingly emerged like late
in the postseason run. Do you think it because because
the core question is like how good basically, how how
good is this team? Really? Like do you think there's
a case to be made whether through the organic growth
of the rookies if given the opportunity, or just just
deeper bench use, and presumably a new coach would use
more of his bench than Thibodeaux because nobody uses less. Like,
is there an argument to be made that the Knicks
could be better just through those avenues or is that
just like, is the difference to marginal for that to
be like to for for the Knicks to say, like,
we're not gonna make big swings. We think we can
get more of the deeper parts of this roster than
we have, and because we were very very close to
making the finals, that's enough. Like, is there any chance
that that's what someone's saying within the organization?
Speaker 2: I think you probably have to guarantee that Landry Shammitt
remains healthy in plays, and then the same thing for
Mentell Robinson, who's a bigger piece to that puzzle, because
then that deepens your rotation by two bodies that you
didn't have available for most of the regular season. But
in terms of I don't see it necessarily with Pocom Dottier,
but again we haven't seen a ton of him. Tyler Kollak,
if you're looking at oh, like, we don't want to
have to worry about campaign minutes, like maybe that's someone
who could come in and fill that up. But I
think it's just the thing that I keep getting caught
up on with the Knicks is the lack of a
consistent and even if you want to say conventional number
two option, it's Towns by default. And he did some
special things in the lineups without Jalen Brunson this year,
but he's not consistent enough, so I feel like wear
that hat. And so that puts you in a situation
where I guess you can improve on the margins enough,
but unless you're you argue that OKAC doesn't have a
conventional number two score at this point, or a dependable one.
But it's like, well, when their options are chet home
good and jail with Williams, it feels like that's different
than having McHale Bridges and even Towns, because even look
at the Pacers like they have Siakham. So it's I
don't think it's far fetched to say that organically their
rotation could be deeper and therefore the Knicks are better,
But like that doesn't that unless you disagree, isn't that
feel like more of a marginal thing?
Speaker 3: It does? I just was asking, because like I think
it that informs how like desperate it's too strong a
word all, I mean, maybe not, but just how aggressive
they're gonna be improving the top end of the roster
if that's if that's the route they go, if if
you know, there's a cat trade out there or whatever,
like if you because all of that stuff is like
super high risk, and I don't know if you want
to be taking these massive swings when you're this close
to being good enough, and so like if you really
did as the Knicks believe, God, if we could have
got you know, a thousand minutes out of like these
two other guys over the course of the year, maybe
that's enough for our best players to just be a
two percent fresher or whatever, like you know, because then
it would just it just your opinion on that side
of it, I think informs how how you believe they
should conduct business like big decision wise, top of the roster,
wise money wise this offseason.
Speaker 2: So we'll get into targets what the biggest needs, but
let's first start with two just notable extension candidates. The
biggest one is Mikal Bridges. Did you want to take
us through his options.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he is eligible to sign a four year,
one hundred and fifty six point two million dollar extension,
which is about twenty percent of the salary cap, which
thank you for putting that in there, because I do
need to just get off of the raw numbers because
they don't make sense to me anymore.
Speaker 1: They're so high.
Speaker 2: I know, it's wait, it's really hard. Wait until you
see the Karl Anthony Towns number.
Speaker 3: Is one of them? Is one of the numbers going
to start with a seven? It almost has to, right,
so do so? Then the questions when you're trying to
sort of calculate, like from either side, is that a
fair number? Would either side be happy with that? Uneven
this season? Does that pave the way for him to
take less? Is this a Jalen Brunson like setting a
tone type of thing where which, honestly to me that
that Brunson thing does carry some weight because you really
can say, as as the Knicks like he did it,
are you better than him?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: I don't know? And Brunson could apply last summer that's true,
that is, for example, but he didn't go to Villanova,
so it's very different. So he's also this is maybe
the kicker, And what we should really be focused on
is so you got that four for one fifty six
on the one hand, or could be maxed out in
twenty twenty six free agency. Four years from the Knicks
would net Bridges two twenty eight point six, five years
from the next two hundred and ninety six million dollars,
four years from anybody else to nineteen point four. You
can kind of think of this in similar terms to
what the Pacers were looking at with Pascal Siakam right
where it was like they could offer the fifth year,
nobody else could, uh, And so like maybe what you
look at is that what could an outside team offer
him for four years? That's as high as we need
to go as the Knicks. But for Bridges, it's do
you want the four years locked up now or do
you want to go into free agency in twenty six.
Speaker 2: And I've seen a lot of fans just say that
you can't sign him to the extension unless he's will
want to take less than it. I am I wrong
here saying that if he's willing to sign that extension,
if you can get him for less, great sign it,
because there's gonna like the player that Michal Bridges is right.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I don't think he'll get maxed out by anybody, but
I absolutely positively believe that someone will give him more
than four years and one hundred and fifty six million
dollars next summer.
Speaker 3: I think that's right, and I think you are still
well one if you four for one fifty six, he's
a tradable asset for positive value. I think at that
number I would agree, not again, not five first round picks.
But you kind of we just kind of have to
like that's that you can't sort of evaluate.
Speaker 2: Guns are looking for a comparable return for kel Durant
that they gave up for him. So that's for unprotected
first one swap Cam Johnson and McHale Bridges, and then
whatever they ended up getting for j.
Speaker 1: Crowder as well.
Speaker 3: Right, so the market's been set. No, I think you're right.
It does feel like there's some sticker shock there for
what's like twenty percent of the cap. It makes it
seem a little easier to handle, but you do just
sort of need to view it from the knick's perspective,
from the standpoint of like somebody else is going to
offer more than that if you wait until twenty six,
I think.
Speaker 1: And if they don't, what went wrong next?
Speaker 3: Well yeah right, yeah, if somebody is not willing to
do that, then you might have overpaid it four for
one fifty six because something went sideways. But yeah, I
I think. And then if I'm Bridges, I don't know.
I might want to test. I might want to see
if somebody wants to get me over two hundred million.
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2: I wonder if for the Knicks then him, unless it
was was part of the calculation giving up so much
for him that he was always going to sign this
extension and that was the value of giving up so
many picks or did.
Speaker 1: It work out in your favor? And both could be true.
Speaker 2: I guess where because his season was so uneven that
he is now going to sign the extension like rather
than because if you're him, it's if he has another
season like he does. If this is the player mchail
Bridges is right now, he's the exact same season, it's
probably if he I'd still guess though, that he gets
more because it only takes one team, and there's gonna
be right now, there's one team that's gonna have cap
space there's gonna be I would say at least a
half dozen teams next summer. Unless something changes, they're gonna
be working with caps. The Heat could be one of them.
So I just look at this and say, if he's
gonna sign the extension, and if I had to guess,
I'm curious what you think. I think it just ends
up being the max four years, one hundred and fifty six.
I think it gets done this summer if it doesn't,
because if i'm mcail Bridges, I'm actually probably not signing it.
Like I'd go into the open market and I would
think that at worst the Knicks will offer.
Speaker 1: Me that same amount of money next year.
Speaker 2: But if he doesn't sign it, if you are the Knicks,
like you need to have some internal discussions about are
we like, are we prepared to like if he goes
into free agency and he gets what four for two hundred,
are you prepared to go to the fifth year like
you did for og or just give him more over
the like If he doesn't sign it, I think there's
real awkward questions that need to be asked.
Speaker 3: And not only that, but then as the Knicks, you're
in the position of like, well, so now we got
to think about trading him. And suddenly do you get
into the whole thing of like, well, so now teams
you can't trade him. Teams aren't going to offer much
for him if if they know he just the reason
that he wasn't signed is because he wants to go
into free agency in twenty six, So what are we
giving up for a potential rental? Like if you do
get to the point where we can't agree at four
for one fifty six? Uh he And the reason that's
true is because like one maybe he's not super sure
he wants to be here, and two he thinks he
can get more. It is like you might have to
think about moving him, and that gets really difficult. Like
I think you're it four for one fifth, given all
now that we've talked it through, given all the potential
downsides and risks of him not signing, that the Knicks
really need to hope they can get him at that
max number now because I think if you push this
to twenty six, it just gets everything gets worse for them.
Speaker 2: Another extension, candidate Grant and I mentioned to throw this
scenario at you, so I'll take us through it. Karlathy
Towns can sign a two year, one hundred and forty
nine point eight million dollar extension that would kick in
during his two during the twenty eight twenty nine season,
when he's thirty three. That would bring his total commitment
this is the number to five years, three hundred and
twenty one point one million dollars. That's a lot of money.
I think logic dictate dictates the Knicks do absolutely nothing.
But what if they did something like this, if they
got him his player option in the final year of
this contract in twenty twenty seven twenty twenty eight is
sixty one million dollars.
Speaker 1: You're Karl Anthony Towns. You're sitting here.
Speaker 2: Saying, I am going to be like, all right in
my mid thirties at that point, like early to mid thirties,
Do I try to lock in three years of like
pretty big money by declining that player option now and
re signing for lower average annual value. Because what that does,
in theory is as it starts to get harder for
the Knicks to keep everything rolling, conthe Town's number gets
lower sooner, so you have Conthi Towns for the next
two years at his current number. But then once you
get to twenty seven to twenty eight, when it's supposed
to be sixty one million, it dips. Now, I think
I tried to confirm this and I couldn't. I think
the most his salary could dip by if he declines
his player option accepts less is like forty percent.
Speaker 1: So it's like, he's not gonna take forty He's not
slashing his salary in half. But I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: It's like, is there a number that because they can't
they if they sign him to a two year, one
dre and fifty million dollars extension, every one in that front
office deserves to be fired. I'm sorry, Like you could
extend him next summer if he has a great year.
But I'm just wondering, is they're like a number where again,
you're knowing you have that sixty one million in that
third year, So what would a three year extension look
like for coronthy Towns and the Knicks That would get
both sides thinking does this make sense? Like how low
Let's frame it this way, how low does that number
in twenty seven twenty eight need to drop for you
to think about, like it's fifty million?
Speaker 1: If he says yeah, I'll do three and one fifty.
Speaker 3: I hate I this is absurd because that is the
exact number I was first of all, I was gonna
I was gonna hem and Han say, like who who know?
Twenty seven to twenty eight, Like we already can't wrap
our heads around the money. Now, if you're giving up
sixty one million dollars, so then that's like all right,
so does that to sign for three for one fifty?
Does that so then otherwise like versus picking up that
option for sixty one and then you just need two
for ninety after that to like break even. Yeah, I
mean if I'm if if towns is Is is in
the position of signing like one plus ones that soon,
that's a problem. I mean for him, I guess, But
like I think could couldn't it also be the case
that three for one fifty just becomes a good deal
for him because maybe he has another season like this
one where man, like look at those numbers during the
year and then in the playoffs you're just like not
consistent enough. Like the defense isn't there, he's not a
center like all that. That stuff's not gonna change, right,
Like we're not gonna find ourselves a year from now
or two years from now, thinking like, isn't the evolution
of Karl Anthony Towns are remarkable? Like he's a great
rim protector. He fits on any team, Like he plays
center full time. It's great. Like, So from his perspective,
maybe that does just beat the market and it's worth
it to the Knicks to just have someone at that number.
I don't know, three for one to fifty does seem reasonable,
but like I mean, who knows. Who knows what it's
like the next two years are gonna hold?
Speaker 1: And I think I don't.
Speaker 2: I honestly don't know, because when you say three for
one fifty when he's basically eligible for two and one
fifty now, it sounds ridiculous. But you have to try
and project forward on the market, and I really do
think I thought Jared Jackson Junior was gonna be the
case study, and now that he's not all in, that
he's not supermax.
Speaker 1: Eligible, he won't be.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's Tree Young who's not super
max eligible. This is a regular extension. I think in
the era of aprons, the bar for max players, especially
when you're getting into the thirty five percent max territory
or even the thirty percent territory.
Speaker 1: The fun max is the rookie scales.
Speaker 2: Sure, I think it's gonna be higher, And so I'm
kind of waiting for like, because if Jalen Brown was
super max eligible this summer and throw the Jason Tatum
injury out the window, I don't think he gets it.
Speaker 3: No way, No, I think you're dead. You're dead on that.
That has to be the way things go, because you're
if that. If it isn't, then you're just I think
teams now are like sufficiently afraid of the second apron
and all the restrictions it imposes. So like Jackson would
have been a great test case. I think Towns. I
think we'll get somebody else before Towns probably, But what
there's maybe like Durant. It isn't Durant gonna be eligible
for like a two for one fourteen or whatever, like.
Speaker 1: Two for one twenty two or two for one twenty
four depending on when.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So if Towns is a test case, then
the answer to the test will be there's no chance
he's getting two for one nine like never in a
million years.
Speaker 2: I don't think they if he's not willing to do
the decline the player option in the lower selling enough,
he's definitely not getting extension, So I don't actually think
he's gonna be a case study. I'm wondering if he
wants to get out in front of being a case study,
because it's like, could we guarantee let's let this contract end.
And so you're saying if three for one fifty was
on the table, you mentioned you need to do two
for ninety at that point, I know the cap is
going up. Are you sure that Karnthi Towns at the
age of thirty three is getting two for ninety at
that I don't know that you can be ending.
Speaker 3: No, I'm not sure at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially if we're at Karnthi. Look, it's they're
not the same player. But like if the Hawks aren't
willing to give Trey Young like a MAX extension now,
like in the four years and the two twenties or
whatever it's worth, like that's like him in Towns are
kind of on the same level of player right where
it's like in any given season they could be an
All NBA player. You might say Towns is just better
because he's more of an at his position. That's I
don't need to get into debate, but like, they're kind
of in the same bucket of if you just chopper
them into the open market, like what are like, which
teams are tripping over themselves to get them? Or if
you put them on the trade block right now, what
teams are tripping over themselves to get them? I think
from the Knicks, it just could be something to explore.
I ultimately think, and I recognize that I might just
be a little lower on the situation.
Speaker 1: Now, even if it was three for.
Speaker 2: One fifty and I'm the Knicks, I'm probably like, you
know what, the AAV needs to drop a low fifty
million a year, like and that's probably unrealistic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's right. I just like we're
getting There was a minute there where it's like, if
you're our very best player and we're half decent, you're
just getting the max extension because we don't want to
that's valuable to us. And now it's almost like, yeah,
you'll get the max extension if half the league would
also give it to you, like if that were possible
to test, And I think, yeah, no, the bar.
Speaker 1: Is just higher.
Speaker 2: You're right about that, grant, do you want to take
us through some of the Kevin Durant stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the question Dan is should they be in
on him? I will answer with a resounding yes. I
think I think if it were him for Cat straight up,
if that were actually possible, I think they're just a
better team. So the cleanest construction of hypothetical trade does
involve sending out kat plus a smaller salary. Things to
keep in mind here, Katie's gonna be thirty seven in September,
just you know, per minute, still pretty phenomenal. I think
maybe some of the luster has worn off. Just another
team change probably coming up. He's gonna be traded, he will,
as I jumped ahead, He's gonna be eligible to sign
at two year, one hundred and twenty two million dollar
extension could be one hundred and twenty four if you
wait six months after changing teams. That total commitment. Then
if you trade for him and then extend him would
be three years and between one hundred and seventy seven
and one hundred and seventy nine. That would take him
through his age thirty nine season. Towns, for comparison's sake,
is at three years, one hundred and seventy one million
through his age thirty two season, So seven seven years
you got Katie's getting up there. That's unbelievable. What we
haven't talked about this, I if Katie's on the table
for and you're not throwing in a bunch of sweeteners
in one way or the other, I think he makes
the Knicks better than Towns. We haven't talked about it, though,
I'm curious what you think about that.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I actually I said you should know
how I think because I sent you I was writing
about a four team trade and it basically ended with
the Knicks giving up kat a twenty twenty eight pick swap,
which people were up in arms about. That pick's already
been swapped, so it's just like swap of a swap.
It's a swap of a swap and PJ. Tucker to
bring in Kevin Durant. And I think the merits of
this go a couple different ways. Everything you outlined, and
I do agree that like the sheen of Kevin Durant,
if you're expecting him to elevate players around him, shoulder
more of the playmaking, maybe even just handle all these
double teams, he won't. But there's he's still just a
better number two score than Karl Anthony Towns. And the
reason you have Karl Anthony Towns is because of the
scoring like and the flexibility he gives you in spacing.
If you're already thinking about do we need to play
him next to another big, you've already kind of just
like the experiment is not what you thought it would be.
Speaker 1: And if you really believe that you can.
Speaker 2: Build a championship calendar per defense around Jalen Brunson and
Carlita Town carlke Town's playing together, then no, you don't
make that move. I know Kevin Durant's older, but there's
also something in me another by the way, he's a
defensive upgrade just to her positions.
Speaker 3: You know, inside six feet, Kevin Durant's field goal percentage
allowed is like eight percentage points lower than Retcats last year.
It's like it's not even really that close.
Speaker 1: And it's just easier.
Speaker 2: So if you get rid of Towns, it's easier to
if you're using the mini, mid level or even minimums,
you're gonna get a big. It's just easier to find
maybe a rotation big than it would be that man,
we could really use another ball handler or someone could
come in and pump in twenty points a game or
something like that.
Speaker 1: What's also intriguing. And I'm not saying he would do this.
Speaker 2: This is all something that needs to be factor and
we're just this has become our mantra.
Speaker 1: I'm just we're just asking questions. We're just saying things.
Speaker 2: Grant, he's on an expiring contract and we're writing those
extension numbers. But like, what if he's just like gonna
take less. I'm not like, I'm not a big fan
of or like and very rarely do you see players
if the max is available taking a bunch less. But
he's going he's turning thirty seven in September. Would he
just say like, yeah, I'll do two years in one
hundred or something like? Is that outside there is that?
Would that be completely just ridiculous to think that he does.
Maybe maybe it is, but regardless, even if he's like
the extension of it all, like it does give you
a little bit of flexibility towards Well Towns is on
the books. We know for another three seasons Kevin Durant
has won. So if it's again it's a risk, but
it does increase your flexibility in theory.
Speaker 1: Should things go sideways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know you'd if you're against the
idea that duran is just a better overall proposition than
Towns is for the next three years at roughly similar money,
you're making durability arguments, which is like, that's fair. It's
just given the age difference you're making, you might even
be concerned that, like, well, the timeline of Durant becoming
disenchanted with his team seems to be accelerating, and so
like we might get eighteen months out of this before
we have to try to trade him. But just from
an on court perspective and like bang for buck perspective
and sealing perspective, like Kevin Durant as your second option
in a playoff series is just more valuable than Towns
and and and then if the defense is a wash
or favors Durant at all, then like what are we
talking about? It's it's it's easy, but age thirty nine
season at the end of that deal, Like, that's.
Speaker 2: That's you'd rather have Towns at three for seventy one,
knowing the ages or KD at three one seventy seven.
It's basically the same money, So I'd rather have Kevin
Durant or Qualfe Town for the next three years.
Speaker 1: That's a real question. That's we're not dismissing that at all.
Speaker 3: No, and it might be bad money at the end
either way. So maybe the lens to look at it
through is like in twenty five twenty six, are the
Knicks more dangerous with Kadi at the four and Mitchell
Robinson at the five or what they had this past
year with kat And I think they're just I think,
and maybe that's the right way to look at it,
because this is a year to year business, Like who
knows what's gonna happen two years from now, And like
I said, it's possible that Durant is is that's a
bad value in year two and three. With Towns, it's
kind of already a bad value. So and it's it's
not gonna get better. I wouldn't think in year two
or three of these extent of these next three years
on their deals. So even if it's just we're way
better next year or we're marginally better next year as
the Nicks because we have Durant and not Towns, then
like you you do that now it takes two are
the Sons, Like, do the sons want to do that?
Speaker 2: I was gonna say that John Cambadoora, the reporting for
him is that they don't want Karl Anthony Towns so now,
and for Knicks fans that think, why would you ever
give U Karl Anthony Towns for Kevin Durant? Could you
even get Kevin Durant for Karl Anthony Towns? Like you
need another team then to value Karl Anthony Towns. And
if he's as valuable as I think a lot of
people think that he is relative to Kevin Durant's age, well,
then in theory you should be able to get enough
stuff to where not only did you get KD, but
maybe there are some other assets coming back your way.
Speaker 1: And I just don't think that would be the case.
Speaker 2: Do I think a cat for KD construction that involves
a third or fourth team, one of that one of
which would value Towns more than the Suns is possible?
Speaker 1: I would think, yeah, especially if if Kevin Rant wants
to go to the Knicks, like he will go to
the Knicks.
Speaker 2: And the other thing here too is I know the
reporting from Stefan Bondi of the new York Post and
some other Beat writers, is the Knicks aren't in on KD?
I want to say. I mean this with Beat reporters
have like one of the hardest jobs in the world
when it comes to covering this league. When it comes
to trade rumors, I do defer to like the Shams's,
Mark Stott, like the Jake Fisher's when it comes to
like knowing the ins and outs of the team.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, you defer to the Beat reporters for sure.
Speaker 2: So I absolutely believe that the Knicks are they They
made an offer for KD at the trade deadline. We
know that for a fact to what changed from the
trade deadline, But how are the Knicks better off? It's
and where you get where you get into just oh
should they do it? Is now if it's not gonna
be Cat and you're talking about sending out like it
has to be basically two of Og, Mitchell Robinson, Chel
Bridges or Josh Hart, it's sort of like, no, you
can't do that. Even if you're okay with giving up Heart,
you can't get there with just Mitch.
Speaker 1: And then it's giving up Og.
Speaker 2: And like it's just you were talking about how we
were talking about how shallow they were. Now they're gonna
get a shallower, get older.
Speaker 1: No, you can't do that.
Speaker 2: No talking about so the next phase of just like
what does this team need? What are some targets they
should go after? What are do you grant you're identifying
the single biggest need for this team?
Speaker 3: What is it? So you have a we have a
list up here if you're watching on YouTube. I jump
first to another ball handler, which is a second item,
get say another biggest Obviously if they do trade towns,
you're gonna need a backup big, especially given Robinson's health,
health history, and like if it's for Durant, like Durant's
probably not playing center. Oh you know the sounds you
could you could do it for spot minutes against the
right lineups. But to me, like and maybe the coaching
change handles this too, maybe because it empowers Bridges a
little more or whatever, just somebody else, So Brunson isn't
pounding the air out of the ball all the time.
And to me, that's the main thing, just just because
like I don't know, the backup big not that hard
to find depth pieces, relatively speaking, easier to find more
three point shooting. That's in need as well somebody else
to make plays. I think is to me is the
standout issue. Do you do you agree with that? I
don't know if we've ever like organized them in a hierarchy.
Speaker 2: The hierarchy is tough because I think they just need
general depth. But I actually think that like doesn't feel
like they need another big because I'm looking at this
the most true looking at this through the lens of saying,
how do you build a really good defense with Contact
Towns and Jail and Brunson like in the same lineup,
And it kind of seems like contt Towns needs to
be playing alongside another big for that to happen, or
you need to get someone like that you don't have
the assets to get like a Herb Jones or a
Tumani Kamara.
Speaker 3: Don't you think it's possible that, Like I guess I
keep in all my hypotheticals like Towns just isn't involved
like where it's just like you og can play the
four bridges is the three you have another wing defender
with a decent amount of size, Like it doesn't have
to be a big now you need a big for
I think for me, like I'm viewing the other big
as like this is a second big or I guess
a third if Kat is there, and like those are
just easier to find. So maybe the need is greater
than I'm giving it credit for. I just think it's
easier to fulfill that need than it is to go
find someone else. That's like you're on the ball for
sixteen minutes a game, like make stuff happen, Like that
guy's hard to find?
Speaker 1: Do you think that?
Speaker 2: So they let's say they can access the mini mid
level exception, which again, as we went over, there's not
necessarily guarantee that they can.
Speaker 1: Like, what are you looking at with that?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Is that getting you in the Malcolm Brog didn't. No, right,
that's not getting you, Malcolm Brog? Is he even what
you want? Like I think for the value, yeah, you
just do it. But is that when you're thinking of
that ball handler type? Is that even who you want
to fill that role?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean you can't be too picky at the
mini mid level, right, Like that's just a five point
seven million, that's I mean, it's more than the minimum,
but it's it's not.
Speaker 2: I mean, and for some guys it's not really that
much more than the minimum, like right, the minimum for
a contract like the ten like three point four million
or so, it's not that much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, more I mean is Brogden is just getting thrown
around so much of this offseason, Like I don't know
what's Tias Jones gonna get is and how much of
an upgrade all told, is Tiat Jones over campaign, especially
if he's only playing a handful of minutes every game.
I think he's better, but like it's I mean, Dangel
Russell no way for five point seven. I don't even
know if I mean, actually Dangel Russell would help. I
think just to just come in and like prop the
offense up. When Brunson is not there, you can't play
him together. That's the other thing is maybe your secondary
ball handler, I don't know, if you really want bang
for your buck has to be someone that could play
with Brunson, because that's kind of been part of the problem.
But that maybe that's just more of a tactical thing
where it's like the coach needs to be the one
to sort of democratize the offense and you you can
just get a backup point guard that's better. But I
don't know. In the perfect world, I think you want
someone that could play in relief of or next to,
like a bug down Bogdanovich, like with could play in
with Trey Young when he was with Atlanta, could relieve
Trey Young, Like that's you know, you don't love the defense,
but someone like that, that's like, yeah, he can actually
be out there with your point guard and is a
value add but again, mini mid level good luck.
Speaker 2: Right, And it's just I don't know, like Dennis Shrewder
probably can't play with j Allen brunt In, but that
might be a mini mid level name. And so if
you want it to be like another ball handler, it
feels like it would need to be addressed via trade.
Speaker 1: And then it's okay. If it's not the.
Speaker 2: Town's type of scenario, it's probably Josh Hart And so
it's Josh Hart.
Speaker 1: And like you're not gonna get even Malik Monk.
Speaker 2: And like if you give Josh harten swaps, that's not
gonna get you Malik Monk from Sacramento, is it?
Speaker 3: Hmm? Probably not? I mean that might be cool, although
like Sacramento actually is worse off in its shot creation
in like point guard position than than than you know,
are they giving him more bunk and then who's running
the show. They don't have anybody right now. Devin Carter
gonna play forty minutes a game as the second year player.
Speaker 2: Next year, Zach Lavine and Demarda Rosen run it back
bulls bulls plus a bonus.
Speaker 3: Demonisabon just everything runs from the elbows again?
Speaker 1: Does this is just you can't? I mean, you could
play these two together.
Speaker 2: He's a free agent, but like Chris Paul, like that
would be like someone who could come and like provide
some of it, like a nice offensive equilibrium during the
non bruns in minutes. But I don't like playing those
two together. It could work offensively, especially with the way
Chris Paul shot this past year. You just probably don't
want to do it.
Speaker 3: They're so small, I mean, can you get he's already
on his second deal, But like a Cole Anthony type
is like the level of player. But then that's that's
gonna have to be a heart salary match too.
Speaker 2: Probably what's cool man for another team has to get
in there, because when we're gonna make Orlando spacing even worse, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Josh Hart would fit in in Orlando, though for the
wrong reasons.
Speaker 1: Can we get aj Mitchell from the Thunder, How do
we do that? I would take it?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's can you I
don't even know what the Knicks picks are like? Or
can you trade for a pick and take like a
late first round or like a second round guard that's
gonna I mean, then it's just just play more right.
Speaker 2: Coleic would be not I know you'll support this, but
can you get enough picks or like give enough value
to get Scottie Pippen junior from Memphis?
Speaker 3: He'd be great. I mean I had him in six
Man of the Year, like top three all season. Yeah,
someone like that would be and I think defensively you
might be able to play him with Brunson you'd be
super small. But that's that's an option too.
Speaker 2: In terms of bigs, I've wondered if, like does do
the Knicks kind of have a leg up if they're
pitching free agents by saying if this is a weakness,
but they could use it as a strength where technically,
if you don't mind bringing Mitchell Robinson off the bench
and you want hard on the bench to begin with,
it's oh, we have a starter spot right here. Al Horford,
you want to come like for the many of Boston's
cutting car like that would is that something that is?
Or even Steven Adams Brooke maybe, I guess Brook Lopez
you do run into the issue by doing that of
saying if you're probably trying to stagger Josh Harda, Mitchell Robbinson,
they're both coming off the bench, like it's a little trickier.
But I've wondered if, like you know, those guys feel
like they should have more than the mid level available,
but if it's not by much, and the Knicks are saying, like, hey,
we have a starter's role here, I'm wondering if that
could matter a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it should right, like, because that's how
you end up getting paid more later, is if you're
logging enough minutes to have the numbers and showcase yourself.
Like I think there's there's a whole class, like if
it's Jay Huff just to keep picking off Memphis players
as someone that if you're zachable, yeah, I mean by low,
I guess, or by yeah, can buy low on on
a lottery guy. Yeah, the d just be like we'll
pay you to rehab for six months instead of whatever
for five. Are you gonna call Portland and see if
I mean Ayden's way out of the price range. But
like r W three duop breath like there's you would
assume Portland's gonna trade one of those guys. H get
get on the get on the phone to Dallas, gonna
give us Gafford, not getting Derek Lively. Probably all these
guys are Josh Hart just has to go out in
a bunch of these because you're the minimu level and
want we're talking about trades. But but I just don't
know how you get I struggle to come up with
the name that's like a clear massive upgrade. I think,
doesn't it feel most likely that it'll be like a
minimum guy, like not the Biambo class, but like just
a half step above that that the it's gonna wind
up being the backup.
Speaker 2: Best player they could acquire via trade if we're or
free agency, if we're moving on from Kevin Durant is
Al Horford, Like that just feels like the best possible player,
and it still feels like a long shot. I was
gonna ask, though, is there just based off the assets
they could have, or maybe they're turning swaps like can
you get cons that would be a pretty big upgrade.
Speaker 3: After yeah, or Saint Jordan Clarkson face If we're just
gonna talk about Utah expiring contracts for scoring.
Speaker 1: Guards John Collins?
Speaker 3: Can he playing Collins third? Big? Uh? Yeah? I don't know.
Like the more we talk about it, the more it
seems like and maybe this is a good way to
get into who's most likely to be traded, Like Josh
Hart just kind of keeps coming up for the range
of guy that they might be looking at. If you're
talking talking trade, just someone that makes, you know, in
the high teens or mid to high teens. It's just
gonna have to be hard, isn't it.
Speaker 2: I probably agree because I don't think you can. Like
it went from we were including Mitchell Robinson in any
mid season trade possible to you can't trade that guy, Yeah,
you can't trade him. So and I just don't I
don't see us an area on which you trade Michael
Bridges or ogn Andobi and get better.
Speaker 1: I just don't see. I don't see.
Speaker 2: I Like, even if you were, I guess if you
were to trade them for Giannis would be the one.
But the Knicks just are Yiannis have to go full
James Harden or Jimmy Butler to get to the Knicks,
So it has to be hard. But that runs like
who is the team that's I think Josh.
Speaker 1: Hart's a very useful player.
Speaker 2: He's like he's also an emotional bell Weather for this team,
but I don't know that he would have a ton
of outside value.
Speaker 3: I think he's worth way more to the Knicks than
he has to other teams. I think that's right because
it's like it's much easier to just think of playing
different skill sets in a similar like price range. Like
Malik Monk you just mentioned is like, yeah he needs
to go to Orlando or somewhere that needs this like
scoring guard. It's like, who needs the guy that's really
good at offensive rebounds and playing hard and pushing in
transition for that pay rate? It's like, well, the Knicks
seem to but I, yeah, you're right, Like that player
type is paradoxically like, yeah, he's Josh Hart's pretty portable,
but also like that, I don't know what team sees
a need Like that's the kind of needs you get
fulfilled by like a hustling ninth guy, you know, as
opposed to one that's like this key piece for the Knicks. So,
like the value discrepancy is pretty pretty big there. So
just the reason I just kept mentioning him is because
like the money that, like his salary just kind of
works for a lot of the type of players we're
talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're like Utah would be a good
example of where they probably don't mind having that salary
on the books, and they could use someone who will
give a dam on the defensive end on the perimeter.
But it's like that he just runs so counter to
their timeline, and it's what do you like, Josh Hart
and swaps for Colin Sexton? Is that really does that
get them thinking about it? Maybe you throw in a
Tyler Kollik or Pocom Dottie and then it's now we
paid all that for an expiring Collins.
Speaker 1: It's they're in such a weird spot. So you think
they're most likely to be traded, is Josh Hart?
Speaker 3: I mean the other option I think is just Cat
and and that presumes that a Durant deal is happening,
which you know we've talked about that a fair amount
the just Cat's.
Speaker 2: Salary there, So Harry right, I was gonna say, is
there just a scenario where it's are you breaking karl
Anthy Towns up into two or three players?
Speaker 1: It's not another star?
Speaker 3: I mean, like what that might solve a lot of problems. Honestly,
it hits the depth that might get you the ball
handler and you might get a backup big out of it.
Just who where is that happening?
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna give you one. I don't know.
Speaker 2: The money is so not gonna work here though, Karlthy
Towns to Toronto for Yaka pertl O chaiak Baji.
Speaker 1: And then more money. I don't know where that money's bringing.
Speaker 3: J Barrett back? RJ Barrett facilitates now, I don't know
if you know he could be your secondary ball handler.
I mean, honestly, there's value to me in just not
having to deal with Towns's contract anymore, don't you think?
Don't you think the Knicks, Well, we just spent a
bunch of time talking about this crazy extension, like at
some point, yeah, I mean that's pretty low.
Speaker 2: Oh here, here's a deal still if they're serious about rebuilding,
continuing to build around Zion Williamson, CJ. McCollum and Herb
Jones for karl anthy Towns.
Speaker 3: I kind of like that one. That's kind of fun.
And Kat is like we kept trying to send Miles
Turner to New Orleans for one hundred off seasons. Kat
kind of doesn't scratch the defense. How bad is that
defense with him there and no herb?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I do that if I'm the Knicks, don't you I yet?
Speaker 1: You still don't need to get a big at that point.
But that's the avenue they could go.
Speaker 2: If we really wanted to cop out, we could say,
most likely be trades like PJ. Tucker or Precious to
Chua and assign and trade or something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Probably the answer probably is that you a just
that's the easy one. Yeah, it's harder, Kat.
Speaker 1: I think for me, you have anything else on this team?
You ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 3: I think that that's a lot of good talk about
the Knicks. I don't feel like I'm any closer to
understanding how they'll get better or if they'll get better.
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