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We're prohibited by lack eight team 25 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.079 plus terms and conditions apply. 26 00:00:59.200 --> 00:00:59.799 See website for. 27 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:21.959 written about him, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 30 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.680 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.959 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.200 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 33 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.359 Good evening. On a cold, windy December night in nineteen 34 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:50.439 twenty six, Hell was unleashed on a tenant farm near Farwell, 35 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:54.359 the last Texas town before the New Mexico Border. Thrown 36 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.359 to the bottle in fits of rage, the burly man 37 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.079 with the smiling blue eyes was in no mood to 38 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.480 quarrel with his third wife over his bootleg whiskey and 39 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:07.079 sexual abuse of his stepdaughter. He went from room to 40 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.719 room in the house, killing his wife and each child 41 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.199 with primitive cutting tools and his bare hands. By the 42 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:15.719 time he concluded his bloody work, he had taken the 43 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.039 lives of nine family members, raging in age from two 44 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.400 to forty one, committing what one local reporter called the 45 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.680 blackest crime in the history of the West Texas Panhandle. Husband, father, uncle, embsler, 46 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:34.919 Syria mass murderer, philanderer, child molester, convict and military deserter 47 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:39.400 George Jefferson Hassel was many things to many people, most 48 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.639 of them bad. His pattern of familicide crime had begun 49 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:47.560 in nineteen seventeen, when he slaughtered his common law wife 50 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:51.680 and her three kids in Whittier, California. Later, in Texas, 51 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.039 he married his brother's wife and became stepfather to her 52 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.000 eight children. Using Hassel's confessions and as many interviews with 53 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.080 reporters as well as the trial transcripts and reminiscences of 54 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.319 those who cross paths with him in Texas, Oklahoma, and California, 55 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.560 Mitchell p. Roth presents the first comprehensive account of the 56 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.240 life and crimes of one of the least known multiple 57 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:20.159 murderers in Texas, let alone American history. Roth situates hassel 58 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:24.680 saga within the nineteen twenties Texas criminal justice system, including 59 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.080 the death penalty which Hassel ultimately received from Old Sparky 60 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.800 the Electric Chair at Huntsville. The book that we're featuring 61 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.199 this evening is The Man with the Killer Smile, The 62 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.120 Life and Crimes of a serial mass murderer, with my 63 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.879 special guest, journalist and author and professor of criminal justice 64 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.439 and criminology, Mitchell p Roth. Welcome to the program, and 65 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:48.639 thank you so much for this interview. Well, thank you 66 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.000 for having me. Thanks, thank you so much. First off, 67 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.840 tell us how you came to be the author of 68 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:56.520 this book. 69 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.520 Well, as it turns out, one of my favorite courses 70 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.360 to teach has been on murder, serial homicide, and mass murder. 71 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.199 And in my early years teaching, I had a young 72 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:09.159 man come up to me after class and tell me 73 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.240 that he was related to somebody that was the fifth 74 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.120 white person to be electrocuted in Texas and had committed 75 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:19.120 mass murder. And I don't think he really knew a 76 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:21.560 whole lot about what he did, but it piqued my 77 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:24.519 interest because I had never heard of this person, and 78 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:28.560 I consider myself an expert relatively on all the you know, 79 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.720 major serial killers and mass murders. In any case, I 80 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.720 asked him if he had any records or family documents, 81 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.800 because a lot of people come up with these you know, stories, 82 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.439 and DAN can't document them. And it turns out he did, 83 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:43.079 and he was kind enough to make a copy of 84 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.639 what had been gathered by his family members who had 85 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.279 gone up to the Panhandle in the nineteen eighties. Interviewed 86 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:54.800 some of the last surviving jors and witnesses, and you know, 87 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.199 basically had put it into this very short family manuscript. 88 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.399 So anyway, I held it because I had a lot 89 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.240 of other book projects going, and I kept telling myself, 90 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.720 this is going to be my next book, This is 91 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.639 gonna be my next book. And I finally got to 92 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.360 the point about three years ago, right before a COVID outbreak, 93 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.079 that had time to go up to the area that 94 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.120 his family had been to and look for court transcripts 95 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:20.439 and go to all the spots and start documenting it 96 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:24.800 all for myself and going full throttle on writing this book. 97 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.079 And as a result, I found a lot of interesting facts. 98 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.639 I found a lot of interesting inaccuracies in the family manuscript. 99 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.959 And as I went on and on and did further research, 100 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:41.720 which entailed lots of newspapers from around the country, entailed 101 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:46.240 you know, even some pulp nonfiction, you know, detective magazines 102 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.680 from the time period, as well as using archives in Austin, 103 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:55.920 Texas State Library and in Huntsville, the Texas Prison Museum. 104 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.680 So I was able to cobble together the story of 105 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.800 a guy who didn't leave much paper trail. He was. 106 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:05.720 He was uneducated but very smart, very cunning, and what 107 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:08.439 we know about him, most of it comes from him. 108 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.399 So whenever that happens, you need to go look at 109 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.160 the ancestor record. You need to go try and you know, 110 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.120 find birth records, family records and all of that. And 111 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.959 apparently there weren't many people in his family that were 112 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.480 proud of him, and he kind of was lost to history. 113 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.920 And I have a huge true crime library in my 114 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.959 office at home and at school, and I've never come 115 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.319 across his name, which I'm kind of surprised. Surprised since 116 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.560 he's had he had thirteen victims in total, and that's 117 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:40.399 at least thirteen when you consider, you know, other killers. 118 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.839 Now, let's talk about the early years, as you call it. 119 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.199 He's the youngest of seven children, and his mother is 120 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.000 Martha Jans Stovell and his father is James William Hassel. 121 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:56.519 So tell us where they resided and where their background was, 122 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.360 and a little bit about what you could cobble together 123 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:00.839 about his early life. 124 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.720 The family, mostly his immediate family, was in the Fort Worth, 125 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:09.399 southern Oklahoma area, just north of the Texas border, and 126 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.759 he came from a long line of people that work 127 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.360 pretty much agricultural jobs. Farming and that sort of thing. 128 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.160 And it went as far back as I could where 129 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.759 I could find information, and found probably the person that 130 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:24.720 he probably got a lot of his traits from. It 131 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.480 might have been a grandfather who had been a familiar 132 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:30.399 presence in the court system in another part of Texas 133 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.800 for arson and some other things, but nothing as nefarious 134 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:36.959 as what he did. And you know, the most interesting 135 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:40.160 things I found was that almost every account of the 136 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.839 story has his father being poisoned by a second wife 137 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.839 and him deciding in his young teens to go and 138 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:50.759 kill that family. And he admitted this was his first 139 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.759 impulse to you know, commit this type of crime, killing 140 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.680 a whole family. Well, you know, it turns out, looking 141 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:01.000 through ancestry dot com and other sites, parents didn't die 142 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:04.120 when when he said they did. He wasn't out on 143 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.040 his own as early as he said he was, and 144 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.439 he didn't commit any murders before as far as we know, 145 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.560 I should say, his nineteen seventeen slaughter of his you know, 146 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:16.480 first family. 147 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:21.240 But you do talk and do have some substantiation of 148 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.720 his earliest criminal career, So you talk about in in 149 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:29.600 nineteen oh seven, he was indicted from embezzling fifty dollars 150 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:33.080 from his employers. Now, tell us about a little bit 151 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.960 about his early criminal career and where he ends up 152 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.840 and how much time does he do. Tell us about 153 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:39.399 the results. 154 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.480 Well, he ended up he was working for a guy 155 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.279 that had a gin mill up in the Fort Worth 156 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:49.039 area named sid Ross, and he became kind of a mentor. 157 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.039 I'm sure he wouldn't be going to be called a 158 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.080 mentor after what happened with his life. But he, you know, 159 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.279 basically gave you know, George Hassel, you know, advice, gave 160 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:02.679 him a job and unfortunately, gave him some responsibility which entailed, 161 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:06.200 you know, going into town to deliver you know, some 162 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.440 cotton and you know, do some trading. And he had 163 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.519 some money that he ended up, he claimed. George claimed 164 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.720 that he fell in with some bad ombres and they 165 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.000 spent it all. And of course that was the story 166 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:20.240 of his life, deflecting his bad behavior on other people 167 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.720 as well. But in any case, he ended up getting 168 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.279 arrested for embezzlement. He was about seventeen years old at 169 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.159 the time and pushing eighteen, and he was sentenced to 170 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.559 two years in prison. And what this meant at that 171 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.000 time was serving a time in the different prison farm 172 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:40.960 units in the Texas criminal justice system, and you know, 173 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.759 these have had, you know, terrible, justly terrible reputations over 174 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.519 the years, and you know, he documents some of the 175 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:51.080 things that happened to him. I was very lucky and 176 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.080 that I was able to find his records in the 177 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:57.799 Texas State Library of what farms he worked on, and 178 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:00.759 I was able to figure out what his tasks were. 179 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.240 And you know, when he talked about what he had 180 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.960 to do, whether it was working on a turpentine farm 181 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.080 or cutting sugarcane at these different places. You know, this 182 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.080 was some of the information I could actually validate. But 183 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:14.519 you know it was for very short periods at each 184 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:17.720 but enough to give you a taste of Texas justice. 185 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.279 You say that he was released in March nineteen oh 186 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:25.879 nine and he saw a recruitment sign. Men wanted tell 187 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.399 us what he does, what decision he makes at that time. 188 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.039 Well, he was, like many of his ilk hit poor 189 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.879 impulse control, and he would often, you know, make decisions 190 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.360 and then think about it later. And in this case, 191 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.240 he thought about joining the military might be a good job. 192 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.279 And he doesn't really go into a lot of detail, 193 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:47.120 but apparently he joined and apparently he deserted several days later, 194 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.399 as you know, many people have done in the military, 195 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.080 but you know, he becomes a serial deserter essentially. 196 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:55.720 You say that right after that, he goes and looks 197 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.600 for a job. So he goes to who and asks 198 00:10:58.639 --> 00:10:59.879 for a job once again. 199 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.279 Well, he goes back to sid Ross thinking that, you know, 200 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.159 you know, perhaps that he'd done his penance and all 201 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:09.200 of that, and sid Ross actually gave him another chance, 202 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.919 kind of a forgiving type of guy, it seems, and 203 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:15.480 he helped set George up on his own farm with 204 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.759 an agreement that they would split some of the profits. 205 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.279 George also got married. He met a young lady. And 206 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.159 what's interesting is during this time is sid Ross's employer. 207 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:30.960 Evidently he knew the family of the woman that he married, 208 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.759 and he also was familiar with George's sister, who was 209 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.519 often kind of his only family member to give him 210 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:43.320 any type of sage advice. And anyway, ultimately George did 211 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.159 everything he could to kind of make sure that this 212 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.200 situation didn't work, and he ended up leaving to find 213 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.279 a job somewhere else, leaving the farm, and eventually, as 214 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:57.000 he claimed, leaving his wife and child, even though he 215 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:59.080 claims there was an agreement for them to kind of 216 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.919 separate and we'd get back together. But once he found 217 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:03.360 a job, You right, though. 218 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.960 That in truth they were they saw his abusive nature, 219 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:11.240 and mother and child took off to their family. And meanwhile, 220 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.840 the family had always thought he was either knew he 221 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.480 was either a freshly released con or just was more 222 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:23.120 suspicious of him in general and tried to dissuade their 223 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:25.320 daughter from being with them in the first place. 224 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.159 Well, the interesting thing is that we know probably less 225 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.480 about this wife than any of the other women that 226 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.320 played a central role in his life. And anyway, he 227 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:36.720 talks about her the most, that she was the love 228 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:39.840 of his life, and that you know, they communicated by 229 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:42.360 letter once a week, and then she stopped writing, and 230 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:44.480 he blamed it all in the family that knew he 231 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.000 had been recently released ex con and didn't want him 232 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.320 married to her. Well, in any case, you know, he 233 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.519 acted like she left him and kind of hit out 234 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.480 from him, and you know, really destroyed his ego and 235 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:59.559 his life. And I bought into this, you know, not 236 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.399 to get far ahead on my research or whatever, but 237 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.000 I bought into this until the very end, and I 238 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:08.559 found a letter written forty years after his death by 239 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:13.120 his only biological son, by his wife. And you know, 240 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.320 in the letter he had written to the Texas Department 241 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.440 of Public Safety saying he wanted to get information on 242 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.240 his father. He didn't know a lot about him, and 243 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.799 so anyway, he said the reason they left was because 244 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.919 they were afraid he was going to kill them. And 245 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.639 this was right before I turned my manuscript in, and 246 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.159 this kind of filled in a nice big gap there, 247 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:36.759 showing that you know, from the very beginning that he 248 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.000 was a familicidal type of you know, individual. 249 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:43.639 Absolutely after this, you write that he enlistened to Navy 250 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.000 in San Francisco under his real name, and because he 251 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.960 feared his earlier desertion from the Army under his mom's 252 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:55.000 maiden name, George Stowell could be revealed through fingerprints. What 253 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.919 happens as a result of this plan of his well, he, 254 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.559 as I said, herobably joined the Navy up in that area. 255 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.159 Was that's you know, he was in California around this 256 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.039 time and looking at you know, where the bases were 257 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:08.519 and all that. 258 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:13.000 And he deserted shortly after that as well. And you know, 259 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.639 one of the problems with his desertion record is I 260 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.879 couldn't find any of it in the military records, and 261 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.720 I couldn't find it in any of the prison records. 262 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.679 Was he claimed he'd served time in Leavenworth and Mayor 263 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.600 Island in California and a couple other places. So the 264 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.360 only thing I could go by was the years in 265 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.000 which he really wasn't active doing anything else. And there 266 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.360 was like a three or four year gap before World 267 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.360 War One, leading up to World War One where he 268 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.080 must have been either in jail or you know, on 269 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.799 the lamb somewhere. But I do believe that he spent 270 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.440 two years in succession of jails. I don't know which 271 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.879 ones was he you know, he claimed he was in Virginia, 272 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.320 he claims he was in California, And without those records, 273 00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:59.799 you know, you cannot substantiate it. But you know, just 274 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.200 from everything I've learned about him, I this is what 275 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.519 I what I assume looking at a lot of different accounts. 276 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.200 Once he's released from prison, he you righte that he 277 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.200 tries to reconcile with Mini and she was with her 278 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:17.799 family in Texas. What happens with this attempt to reconcile 279 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.960 and what does he do after after that. 280 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.960 Afterwards, well, he claims that a couple of times he 281 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.159 tried he wanted to see his son, James Delbert, and 282 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:30.039 you know, so he would buy gifts and he wanted to, 283 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.919 you know, come visit her in the family, and you know, 284 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.759 she finally let him, according to you know, you know, 285 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.000 his accounts and others, see the kid as long as 286 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.440 he didn't share the fact that he was the father. 287 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:47.039 And anyway, none of these visits went well, and you know, 288 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.360 he ended up kind of being ostracized from the family 289 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.919 and just basically told to you know, hit the road 290 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.679 and don't come back. And after leaving the Fort Worth area, 291 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.879 he claims that he ended up in San Angelo, Texas. 292 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.960 And in San Angelo he met a woman named Marie Vogel. 293 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.360 I really doubt that this actually happened. I mean, it's 294 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.080 a nice story, but in any case, she apparently had 295 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:12.440 a boarding house and he's sweet talked to her and 296 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:16.320 pretty soon they're living together. And she had a biological 297 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.559 child and she was separated from her husband in San Diego, 298 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.799 and so they agreed to hit the road and go 299 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.240 to California and you know, kind of start over it together. 300 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.600 One of the problems with this story is you know, 301 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.039 she's got this kid, and that reminds him also of 302 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.440 one of his child He's never mentioned as he's talking 303 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.000 about his road trip and some of the things that 304 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.720 he pulls along the way where they, you know, try 305 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.600 to pull these extortion schemes, luring men into the bedroom 306 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.480 when he's not there and him coming upon them and 307 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.120 you know, demanding money to allow the person to leave. 308 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.960 It just you know this, it just doesn't this bunko 309 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.639 scheme and all that just doesn't sound right. I think 310 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.000 what probably happened is he never met her in San Angelo. 311 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:02.720 There was no reason for her to be there, you know, 312 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.400 there was she had no family or friends there, and 313 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.559 that he probably met her when he went to California 314 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.400 and got a job working on a ranch where she 315 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.480 was working as kind of a kind of a caretaker 316 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.720 mate and had her child there. You know, That's why 317 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.319 I think happened. It's a great story, like most of 318 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.920 his stories, but you know, looking at you know, whatever 319 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.880 records I could find it, there was nothing to substantiate that. 320 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.640 I couldn't find her in any type of telephone directory 321 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:34.039 or anything from that time period in San Angelo, Texas. 322 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.960 And you know, San Angelo was kind of the frontier. 323 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.440 You know, what is she doing out there? 324 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.160 You're right that she was born Marie Serlin. Her sister 325 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.920 was Her sister was Gertrude Hoffman, and she lived in Pittsburgh. 326 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.720 She's a central character in this story as well. She 327 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.880 said she knew him only as a ranchan named Baker. 328 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.559 So tell us what happens after with this relationship. 329 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:01.440 Well, he ends up on this ranch, living on it 330 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.039 as a doctor's spread outside Whittier, California, And you know, 331 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.680 he's basically a ranch hand. And you know, from what 332 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.880 I can determine, she was working there as well, and 333 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:16.160 her sister came to visit and was introduced to him, 334 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.279 and it seemed they were the only two people on 335 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.759 the ranch. You know, they were the caretakers, and in 336 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.200 all probability were a couple by then. And you know, 337 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:29.240 he introduced himself as a ge George G. Baker, and 338 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.039 you know, basically I was trying to, of course, you know, 339 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.000 hide his background. And one of the things they needed 340 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.519 to do, since she was married, was to assume the 341 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.799 facade of being a married couple with a child in 342 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.519 order to be accepted there in any case, they end 343 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.839 up getting two other children as well, that they supposedly 344 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.960 got from an orphanage, claiming that they were a rich person, 345 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.079 and they ended up with these two other kids. And 346 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.279 really it's hard to tell how they got these two kids. 347 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.680 Some accounts say the sister brought them to them, others 348 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.839 say that they got him through some type of orphanage arrangement. 349 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.480 But in any case, by this time, about nineteen seventeen, 350 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:12.079 nineteen sixteen, nineteen seventeen, him and Marie and these three 351 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.720 little kids, and they're all under the age of six, 352 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.119 are living on this ranch. And if the sister goes 353 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.559 back home, back to the Pittsburgh area and never sees 354 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.640 her sister again, and George ends up telling people when 355 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:29.200 she disappears and the kids disappear that they had moved on. 356 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.319 She'd run off with another guide to Australia or San Francisco, 357 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.559 and he continued to live on the property that they 358 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.039 had that they were renting. And Wittier you. 359 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.000 Right though, that there was a next door neighbor, Missus 360 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.319 Shanker and her daughter Myrtle. What did she notice and 361 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:50.200 observe a few weeks before this disappearance. 362 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.839 Well, they had seen George digging under the house and 363 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.160 in the driveway and that sort of thing. They didn't 364 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.720 know exactly what he was doing. George would have an 365 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.839 explanation later on, but you know, basically removing dirt. And 366 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.480 shortly after they noticed all this, the family had disappeared, 367 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.039 and he continued to work under the house and live 368 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.599 in the house. And they asked him, was that they 369 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.720 knew her a little bit. They would come over and 370 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.160 visit with Marie and liked her very much, and question, well, 371 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.079 where'd they go? You know, you would think they would 372 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.519 say goodbye, And he said, oh, they just took off. 373 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.079 And this becomes this mantra whenever there's a family disappearance 374 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.480 throughout the rest of his life. 375 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.279 You right, though, that the next door neighbor is pretty 376 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.920 persistent and reports her suspicions to a police officer. What 377 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.519 happens as a result of that, She's team points to 378 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.519 activity in this garage. 379 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.240 Right, Everything seemed kind of fishy to her, and she 380 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.680 contacted the Whittier Constable's office and they sent over a 381 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.319 guy named Bob Way over to the house. And he 382 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:54.599 sounds like he just did pretty much a cursory inspection. 383 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.480 But by this point, George had murdered the family and 384 00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.839 buried them under the house and did a very good job, 385 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.720 so that he would say that to his dying day, 386 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:03.759 that he did a great job, you know, getting rid 387 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.079 of the bodies. And he couldn't come up with anything, 388 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.799 He couldn't find the bodies or you know, anything like that. 389 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.359 And he still knew this family as George G. Baker, 390 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:15.759 And this would become a problem later on when they're 391 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:18.519 trying to parties are trying to you know, find George 392 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.880 Hassele and Wittier at that time, which they would not find. 393 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:27.400 So you write that Gertrude continues and is persistent with 394 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:31.079 police and continues to querry them to what might have 395 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.240 happened to her sister and the children. However, there was 396 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.200 no report back from them of any progress in the investigation. 397 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.599 And as you say, George G. Baker as he's known, 398 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:46.079 leaves town, and now he leaves with his real name, 399 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:50.319 George Jefferson Hassel. He joins the Merchant Marines, as you say, 400 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.279 and works in the oil fields. Based on your research 401 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.480