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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm
Speaker 1: Carl Franklin at A'mergard Gamble, and happy autumn season to y'all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was Halloween last night after we recorded this.
Speaker 2: When we're recording, Yeah, but yeah, this is later than
Speaker 2: that because time shifting.
Speaker 1: Right, and we were hoping to get some more stuff.
Speaker 1: We had Dan Roth on last week and we were
Speaker 1: hoping to get some more not last okay, time shifting
Speaker 1: a few shows ago. But we were hoping to get
Speaker 1: this closer to dot net conf. But you know, you Glenn,
Speaker 1: being you know, experienced in all things dot net nine
Speaker 1: just not not just Blazer, we thought we would do
Speaker 1: a little recap of what they talked about acts dot
Speaker 1: net conv So, hey, Richard, hey man, let's I think
Speaker 1: we should just jump into a better no framework don't
Speaker 1: you do the thing? All right? Roll the music? All right? Well,
Speaker 1: I kind of have gotten into the habit of looking
Speaker 1: at trending GitHub repositories and this one came up. It's
Speaker 1: called Little Big Mouse. It's an open sourced app designed
Speaker 1: to enhance the multi monitor experience on Windows ten and
Speaker 1: eleven by providing accurate mouse screen crossover locations within MULTIDPI
Speaker 1: monitor environments. Nice particularly useful for setups involving a four
Speaker 1: K monitor alongside of you know ten EIGHTP monitor.
Speaker 2: The tedap so the scaling thing, the DPI thing happens,
Speaker 2: and your mouth goes a little nutty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not just a mouse, but there's a video right
Speaker 1: there on the repo and he takes like notepad and
Speaker 1: tries to drag it between the two screens. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's always a not fun experience. But it's pretty good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty good stuff. I'm going to use it.
Speaker 2: Well, I in this this recording rig, I have a
Speaker 2: portrait oriented like fourteen forty screen and then a landscape
Speaker 2: oriented curved like thirty eight and dragon between those can
Speaker 2: get whacky whacky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm going to download this too because I've
Speaker 1: got a few screens and I got a forty nine
Speaker 1: insure like you yeah, and a couple other screens. All right,
Speaker 1: So that's what I got. Richard, who's talking to us today.
Speaker 2: Gray Call Show nineteen o three, the one we did
Speaker 2: with our friend Beth Massey when we talked a bit
Speaker 2: about Maui and Blazer. Yeah, and got a bunch of
Speaker 2: good comments on this show because we had a lot
Speaker 2: of fun there. And this comment is from ilfeb who said,
Speaker 2: I love your shows. My feeling when hearing all these
Speaker 2: UI names like WPF, win UI three, Maui, WebView two
Speaker 2: css SX that we devs would love to have not
Speaker 2: so many different UI text acts. The fact that still
Speaker 2: WPF seems to be the most used dot net UI
Speaker 2: framework tells quite a story at Microsoft's dot net UI strategy.
Speaker 2: In the past, we're using Avalonia for our cross platform development,
Speaker 2: which we've done a show on avalone. We would love
Speaker 2: to get such a thing from Microsoft. But now that
Speaker 2: Avalonia UI is there, I hope that the current wild
Speaker 2: pace of adoption keeps going. So there's two things that
Speaker 2: worry me, the current and future quote mess sorry with
Speaker 2: dot net UI frameworks, where we could have just one
Speaker 2: for desktop, mobile potentially in a cross platform form for Windows, Linux,
Speaker 2: Mac os, iOS, Android and the browser and an unclear
Speaker 2: platform IDE strategy. I'm very much into vidual Studio, not
Speaker 2: at all into VS code. I guess most devs would
Speaker 2: want VS twenty twenty eight to be a cross platform IDE.
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1: Did you say twenty twenty eight?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the next next version of visual Studio is okay,
Speaker 2: I mean to be clear, it skipped over a couple
Speaker 2: of years there. Yeah, visual Studio runs exactly on one
Speaker 2: platform Windows. There was a Visual Studio for the Mac
Speaker 2: which was actually Mono develop. When they got acquired Zamorin
Speaker 2: they renamed it, which I thought was an unwise thing
Speaker 2: to do, But now they've stopped working on it, so
Speaker 2: that's really not a thing. I think your wish is
Speaker 2: a good wish. It's also never been achieved by anything.
Speaker 2: Right to have desktop mobile, you know, and plus all
Speaker 2: of the operating system is that it just works. That
Speaker 2: would be awesome. Plazer well and MAUI is obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: origins are in zamorin forms, the phones being the sort
Speaker 2: of subset that you need to start with and work
Speaker 2: out from. But it's really hard to start with that
Speaker 2: set and then do a good job on Windows in
Speaker 2: mac Os and the and the larger stream platforms. So
Speaker 2: I think it's still a story arc here. Maui's intent
Speaker 2: was to try and unify all of these things, right,
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think what you're feeling, your concerns are reasonable,
Speaker 2: because what you're really feeling is that somewhat of a
Speaker 2: political struggle going on inside of Microsoft about what folks
Speaker 2: want to work on, who's one what where, Like, there's
Speaker 2: a lot going on on all of this.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I just wrote an app in
Speaker 1: Maui for myself because you know, I'm a solo artist
Speaker 1: and i play out with my guitar and I've got
Speaker 1: sheets of paper, usually with big song lists and some lyrics,
Speaker 1: and usually they're like on the floor by the end
Speaker 1: of the night. And I was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: got an iPad.
Speaker 2: Totally normal playlist thing to happen. Yeah, I'm like, I
Speaker 2: got an iPad, let's do this. So I went looking
Speaker 2: to see if there were apps out there, and there are,
Speaker 2: but they want thirty forty bucks a month for a
Speaker 2: freaking list a month, yeah or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know. They were just expensive, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: giving you my money for that stupid thingpad. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I wrote an app and it's beautiful. And here's the thing, Like,
Speaker 1: my machine is really fast, faster than my iPads, so
Speaker 1: I could I put like a dev express HTML editor
Speaker 1: in there, and on my machine, I can add songs
Speaker 1: and then it add lyrics and stuff, and then I
Speaker 1: buzz it over to the iPad and it just reads
Speaker 1: the data, you know. And I used it on the
Speaker 1: gig last night, nice and it it ran like a shamp.
Speaker 1: So I love that whole Blazer hybrid thing because I
Speaker 1: could I could take that and run it into browser too.
Speaker 2: But I'd also say you were putting it on one
Speaker 2: platform an iPad two.
Speaker 1: Two, run it out in Windows right on my desktop
Speaker 1: and then iPad Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, legit.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. I think the Struggle browser's pretty cross platform.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The struggle for a unified crossplat story is hard,
Speaker 2: and there's always going to be an origin platform that's
Speaker 2: going to be strongest, and they're going to battle to
Speaker 2: make the other ones good. And you know, folks come
Speaker 2: from a lot of different directions, so there's a reason
Speaker 2: you're feeling a little concerned I'm glad you're happy with Avalonia.
Speaker 2: We thought it was an impressive product. Yep. And maybe
Speaker 2: we have to do another show and that's very fair
Speaker 2: maybe so ill fab Thank you so much for your comment,
Speaker 2: and a copy of music Coba is on its way
Speaker 2: to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Cobe,
Speaker 2: I write a comment on the website at dot net
Speaker 2: rocks dot com or on the Facebook, so we publish
Speaker 2: every show there. Maybe you comment there when ever reading
Speaker 2: the show, we'll send you a copy of music Goby.
Speaker 1: Or if you want to just buy music to code by,
Speaker 1: go to music to code by dot net crazy. All right, well,
Speaker 1: before we start here, this is episode nineteen twenty five,
Speaker 1: and as always I kind of like to run down
Speaker 1: a little history. You know, what's your favorite piece of
Speaker 1: history from twenty some events? Well, of you know, Mussolini
Speaker 1: in January makes a pivotal speech in the Italian Chamber
Speaker 1: of Deputies which will be regarded by historians as the
Speaker 1: beginning of his dictatorship. Awesome, Yeah, here's a happy note.
Speaker 1: January twenty seventh to February first, the nineteen twenty five
Speaker 1: serum Run to Nome the Great Race of Mercy relays
Speaker 1: diphtheria antitoxin by dog sled across the US territory of
Speaker 1: Alaska to combat and epidemic.
Speaker 2: How about that they ran the drugs by dogs like
Speaker 2: the get by doctors, no other way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: March eighteenth, tri State Tornado, the deadliest and US history,
Speaker 1: rampages through Missouri, Illinois, and Indiana, killing six hundred and
Speaker 1: ninety five people and injuring two thy twenty seven.
Speaker 2: That's crazy, but that's before there was ways to warn
Speaker 2: folks really, right, Yeah, there's just the sirens.
Speaker 1: Yep. So there's more to that. But April tenth, f
Speaker 1: Scott fitzg Old publishes The Great Gatsby in New York,
Speaker 1: famous famous book. April sixteenth a communists assault on Saint
Speaker 1: Nadelia Church claims roughly one hundred and fifty lives in Sofia,
Speaker 1: Bulgaria place we have been several times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and at that time was part of the the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union.
Speaker 1: Yeah. June thirteenth, American engineer Charles Francis Jenkins achieves the
Speaker 1: first synchronized transmissions of pictures and sound using forty eight
Speaker 1: lines and a mechanical system in the quote first public
Speaker 1: demonstration of radio Vision Nice Radio forty eight P.
Speaker 2: Yeah for eighty P. Forty eight P.
Speaker 1: July the Scopes trial right. In this stage test case
Speaker 1: the Monkey trial in Dayton, Tennessee. John T. Scopes, a
Speaker 1: young high school science teacher technically arrested on May fifth
Speaker 1: and indicted on May twenty fifth, is accused it was
Speaker 1: signing a reading from a date mandated textbook on Darwinian
Speaker 1: evolution in violation of a Tennessee state law, the Butler Act.
Speaker 1: He has found guilty and fined one hundred dollars through
Speaker 1: the verdict, though the verdict is later overturned on a technicality.
Speaker 1: The trial makes explicit the fundamentalist slash modernist controversy within
Speaker 1: the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, with
Speaker 1: William Jennings Bryan, who dies on July twenty sixth, being
Speaker 1: challenged by the liberal Clarence Darrow. All right, I swear
Speaker 1: to God, I'm not going to go through all these
Speaker 1: but July eighteenth, Adolf Hitler publishes minekompf. August eighth, the
Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan demonstrates its popularity by holding a parade
Speaker 1: with an estimated thirty five thousand marchers in Washington, d c.
Speaker 1: August thirty first, Margaret Mee, anthropologist, lands in American Samoa
Speaker 1: to begin nine months of field work that'll accumulate in
Speaker 1: her nineteen twenty eight book, Coming of Age and Samoa.
Speaker 1: This best selling book will become the first popular anthropological
Speaker 1: study and will change many attitudes toward tribal peoples. The
Speaker 1: Locano Treaties negotiated October fifth through sixteenth, and signed in
Speaker 1: London December first. Very you know, getting ready for World
Speaker 1: War Two? Here the Grand Old Operay November twenty eighth,
Speaker 1: first broadcast on WSM Radio and Nashville, Tennessee as the
Speaker 1: WSM Barn Dance. Oh yeah, so it was an interesting year.
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to add?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hitler's out of prison, publishes Mind Camp, reforms the
Speaker 2: Nazi Party, and creates the SS all in the same year. Yeah,
Speaker 2: guess which way we're going? Friends?
Speaker 1: Mmm?
Speaker 2: Right? Like, just like that, He's he's right back on
Speaker 2: the mission. Nine months in prison didn't seem to dissuade
Speaker 2: him much after the Beer Hall push.
Speaker 1: So you're saying he was a convicted felon.
Speaker 2: He was, actually, but it apparently let out. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was a five year sentence. The only served nine months. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know how you pull that off. It's a friends
Speaker 2: and good behavior because he's busy writing a.
Speaker 1: Book friends in high places.
Speaker 2: I guess something. I don't think he had any.
Speaker 1: Actually, Okay, now for that, let's bring on our guest.
Speaker 1: Glenn Condren as a program manager on the Application Platform
Speaker 1: Team at Microsoft, where he spends most of his time
Speaker 1: working on the asp net core runtime. Before becoming a PM,
Speaker 1: he was software developer and consultant for eight years. His
Speaker 1: work before Microsoft was primarily for Australian government clients. Welcome, Glenn, Hi,
Speaker 1: how are you doing. We're good, doing great, excellent, glad
Speaker 1: to have you. You guys have been busy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, indeed, I guess my updating of my bio I
Speaker 3: suppose because I probably haven't done it for a while.
Speaker 3: I am now the lead of the Platform Team pmteam,
Speaker 3: which means that almost everything that's not tooling and MAUI right,
Speaker 3: all those pms. Okay, so yeah, that's that's.
Speaker 2: So all the heart of dart net, not not the language,
Speaker 2: the framework.
Speaker 3: And I have very recently including the language. Well, Mad's
Speaker 3: Tubison also wants to be but like he's bad, so
Speaker 3: I don't. Actually, I don't have actually influence bads at all.
Speaker 3: He's bad, and the Language Design committed and the Language
Speaker 3: Design Meeting does its thing, and all those people that
Speaker 3: don't pretend to influence it anyway, but technically reports you.
Speaker 2: And Mads have a conversation periodically. We do. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So yeah, that's my that's my part of the world,
Speaker 3: which means this kind of release we're here to talk
Speaker 3: about don N nine. It's been a lot of for me.
Speaker 3: It's been a lot of aspire, especially because it grows out,
Speaker 3: that grows out of what I was doing before I
Speaker 3: started moving into I am now lots of aspire, lots
Speaker 3: of lots of kind of AI. That's just kind of
Speaker 3: two halves of AI for us. It is AI for
Speaker 3: you and and US as devs like co pilots and friends.
Speaker 3: AI for code, and then there's AI for how am
Speaker 3: I going to How am I? You know, my boss
Speaker 3: has said he wants a chatbod. How do I make
Speaker 3: it real? Or how do I integrate AI into my apps?
Speaker 3: And that's that bit is more where where I play?
Speaker 3: Because now you need libraries, you need SDKs, you need experiences.
Speaker 3: How are you going to talk to the l l M.
Speaker 3: How are you going to do generatly? BAYI right, how
Speaker 3: are you going to make it work? We got lots
Speaker 3: of samples to do, lots of partners, lots of lots
Speaker 3: of work, and then our forever goals right security, quality performance.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, security a big one. I know. We talked
Speaker 1: to Dan Roth a few weeks ago and he was
Speaker 1: mostly focused on Blazer in the changes to Blazer, but
Speaker 1: we thought we would get some more breadth about dot
Speaker 1: net nine with you. So we know about Blazer. What
Speaker 1: are some of the other big wins in dot net
Speaker 1: nine over dot net eight?
Speaker 3: Let's see, so lots. We've continued our PERF journey. I
Speaker 3: don't know, I'm sorry, not PERF. I mean, yes, we've
Speaker 3: continued our PERF journey. But the thing that I was
Speaker 3: going to say was in don at eight we talked
Speaker 3: about I believe it was in eight, maybe even have
Speaker 3: been as early as seven. But for many years now
Speaker 3: we've been on this steady march with Native aot. As
Speaker 3: we kind of keep giving you this, more and more
Speaker 3: of the stack becomes kind of aoteable. We made another
Speaker 3: good ahead of time step ahead. Yeah, that's ahead of time. Compilation.
Speaker 3: That's kind of compiling hardest for lack of a pretteric description,
Speaker 3: get pilot to native and what that gives you is,
Speaker 3: you know, better cold start times maybe and things like
Speaker 3: that because there's no JGIT, right, and what what it
Speaker 3: takes away is dynamicism.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So if you're in that world, especially if you're in
Speaker 3: like I have a small service and I don't need
Speaker 3: any of the kind of runtime, kind of dynamic runtime
Speaker 3: features that that are difficult in a full in an
Speaker 3: AOT world, then you might want that extra cod start time,
Speaker 3: container container on a cluster, right, So we made more
Speaker 3: roads towards that we've made. There's some stuff in the GC.
Speaker 3: There's the new like dynamic adaptive GC mode for server GC.
Speaker 3: There is garbage and garbage collection, all all in support
Speaker 3: of cloud and building these new workloads in these new
Speaker 3: ways people are using.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Aspire was a kind of big lift that we kind
Speaker 3: of talked about at the end of don at eight
Speaker 3: at dot net Confin do at eight, I did the talk.
Speaker 3: I did a talk there with Feler and then I
Speaker 3: think you've had Fouler on to talk about it and
Speaker 3: some people, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure, and Hunter and yeah, yeah, so they even talked
Speaker 2: about Aspire, right.
Speaker 3: So that shows you the kind of broad thing about
Speaker 3: Aspire is how many things needed to change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but I think of it as tooling.
Speaker 2: You're saying it's in the framework too.
Speaker 3: Yes, because Aspire is kind of it. It actually crosses
Speaker 3: almost the entire intersection of the team, Like it doesn't
Speaker 3: impact the language, but it impacts almost everything else. Right.
Speaker 3: So you have tooling, yes, because you have the dashboard
Speaker 3: to give you all your metrics, to give you a hotel,
Speaker 3: to give you that dev focused what's going on in
Speaker 3: my app right now? Right? Then you have integrations. So
Speaker 3: integrations were Newgate packages. Their library is the same as
Speaker 3: all the other things that I build on my team
Speaker 3: are libraries, right, but they are configured by the out
Speaker 3: of the box to assume that you're in this world.
Speaker 3: You're using cloud stuff. Stuff might be unreliable.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: We did work in Polly, for example, at the beginning
Speaker 3: of doing a spire to make to improve to help
Speaker 3: improve its perth. Right, Like, we've contributed a lot into
Speaker 3: the poly project that was kind of under this umbrella
Speaker 3: of building this Aspire project. It's gone from elements and
Speaker 3: ingredients of a stack poly is faster. We've got a
Speaker 3: reduction thing. We've got this ability to you know, we
Speaker 3: have baked re tries and such in fast better all
Speaker 3: these ingredients. Then you start stacking them together and stacking
Speaker 3: them together and stacking them together until you've got a
Speaker 3: stack right right, and so now you've got Now you've
Speaker 3: got libraries that make it easier to get you know,
Speaker 3: I want to talk to reddis but I need retry.
Speaker 3: I need a good default retry policy. I need to
Speaker 3: make sure it's configured with in di I properly, with
Speaker 3: the right lifetime. Is the Reddest client thread safe?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Is it supposed to be a singleton or not? I
Speaker 3: got no idea. I'm I could do it.
Speaker 1: You know, DDI, can you define that.
Speaker 3: DI I so dependency d SO. If I describe this out,
Speaker 3: if I pull this out into a list for you,
Speaker 3: if let's say you're going to use raddis, this is
Speaker 3: This is our kind of favorite example, and this was
Speaker 3: part of our genesis when we were creating what is
Speaker 3: a spy going to be?
Speaker 2: When we were.
Speaker 3: Giving this pitch, we had this slide, and on that
Speaker 3: slide it said, if you're going to use Reddus today
Speaker 3: in the modern cloud. This is what you have to do,
Speaker 3: and it was fifteen steps long.
Speaker 2: Right configuration, setting all of the settings, right, security parameters exactly,
Speaker 2: you need.
Speaker 3: To add the right to add you need to add
Speaker 3: the new get package. Right, you got to find the
Speaker 3: right one. You have to add it to dependency injection
Speaker 3: in your like server app. What is the lifetime? Don't know?
Speaker 3: You have to go read the docs make sure you've
Speaker 3: got the right one because if the thing, you know,
Speaker 3: can it be a singleton or not? Is the main
Speaker 3: decision point? Right, I'm going to have it to di
Speaker 3: is it logging properly? Is it going to go into
Speaker 3: my logstream? How do I do that? When we started
Speaker 3: this effort, that was a shim that you had to
Speaker 3: do that you had to go learn that significantly like
Speaker 3: improved now, right, then how do I consume it in
Speaker 3: my in my controller or in my function? And then
Speaker 3: like is the what is the resiliency policy? Is that
Speaker 3: turned on? If reddis is a little bit flaky one
Speaker 3: day or if something happens, is it going to recover?
Speaker 3: Like it just kept.
Speaker 1: Going right, it goes everywhere and.
Speaker 3: What we want, Yeah, understand it almost becomes viral, and
Speaker 3: so the intent was, how do you collapse that into
Speaker 3: just add reddis and for the love of God, give
Speaker 3: me some give me a really make it work with
Speaker 3: all those things that we just described, so.
Speaker 2: Well, just give me the settings that would make me
Speaker 2: happy be in the cloud, absolutely right, because the bigger
Speaker 2: thing here is going, hey, what if we did elastic
Speaker 2: instead and just being able to switch it, like if
Speaker 2: you actually got Redus running right, you'd literally go okay,
Speaker 2: don't touch it. Yeah it's working right now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: Well, that brings up another point, which is if you
Speaker 1: start with Aspire, right, and you do all the things
Speaker 1: and you pull all the switches and everything, you add reddis,
Speaker 1: do you give up the whole idea of adding things
Speaker 1: manually after Aspire? Like do you always have to go
Speaker 1: through the Aspire thing to add things so that you
Speaker 1: don't disturb? Right? I mean, if you're going to add
Speaker 1: another service, can you just add a service and we'll
Speaker 1: add all the Aspire stuff follow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so I think what you're talking about is
Speaker 3: like add Aspire integration, like gesture in tooling.
Speaker 1: Well, even if you start with Aspire, but you know,
Speaker 1: we have many years of manual configuration experience. And that's
Speaker 1: where we go. Oh, right, as developers, I see, do
Speaker 1: we now have to put that aside and before we
Speaker 1: add to it or expand our application or applications, do
Speaker 1: we now look for the Aspire way to do things?
Speaker 3: I mean, I hope, I hope that the Aspire way
Speaker 3: means that you can delete some code. And therefore I'm
Speaker 3: always supportive of you being out of delete code if
Speaker 3: you if that you don't care about, or that you
Speaker 3: don't need to worry about, right, so that maybe, but no,
Speaker 3: it's not not required for you to go and change
Speaker 3: the way that you do things.
Speaker 1: Right, So there isn't any risk of doing something that
Speaker 1: conflicts with what I've set up and aspired that maybe
Speaker 1: I don't even understand, like all that stuff that you
Speaker 1: said about reddits.
Speaker 3: No, So the largest risk is probably that you add
Speaker 3: a redes say and we built in and like say,
Speaker 3: reach a particular set of policies with poly YEP poly policies,
Speaker 3: and then you've wrapped them in your own and now
Speaker 3: you've got a double layer of retries or something like that.
Speaker 1: Actually that happened to a customer of mine that we
Speaker 1: went out and tried to add Aspire to we already
Speaker 1: had partly, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so that's probably the biggest risk is you
Speaker 3: didn't realize that the client you're getting now is already
Speaker 3: retrying and doing all that for you, and therefore you're
Speaker 3: doing your own logic for it. That's probably the biggest risk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, But.
Speaker 3: Ultimately, like you know, I heard this thing as part
Speaker 3: of me like being oh, yeah, let me make sure
Speaker 3: I remember what dot net rox is all about. And
Speaker 3: I listened to Chris Bluke, my befriend Chris. He was
Speaker 3: talking about he talked to you about how he like,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't want to be a developer today because of
Speaker 3: all these things to learn.
Speaker 1: You would want to start.
Speaker 3: You wouldn't want to start, You wouldn't want to be
Speaker 3: getting You wouldn't like you couldn't imagine how overwhelming it
Speaker 3: must be day one showing up and then them saying cool,
Speaker 3: you're building this kind of app. Right, So what I
Speaker 3: would ultimately, what I'm trying to achieve within Aspire is
Speaker 3: today I would say that the learning curve for how
Speaker 3: to build a current app is like logarrhythmic. It goes
Speaker 3: like straight up and then it starts to even out right,
Speaker 3: and you want want to make a linear like you
Speaker 3: slowly learn more and more bits and you can make
Speaker 3: it in you again, can we flatten this curve of
Speaker 3: what how much you need to learn to be productive
Speaker 3: and to get something that works and can work for
Speaker 3: real with real internet traffic hitting it and not like fall.
Speaker 1: Over and can be maintained and can.
Speaker 3: Be maintained right, because today it's just this mass. It's
Speaker 3: very very hard, right, and so there's a bunch of
Speaker 3: interesting challenges.
Speaker 2: Because it's not that tough to toss an app service
Speaker 2: up and get it to run. Yeah, that's right, But
Speaker 2: you haven't done a lot of things at that point.
Speaker 3: No, that's right. Yeah, And if you were, and if
Speaker 3: you're good with building that kind of app where it's
Speaker 3: a kind of app service talking to a database, Spire
Speaker 3: is still useful in that world in that it makes
Speaker 3: it easy to spin up the database every time you
Speaker 3: press F five and stuff like that. But then it's
Speaker 3: mostly useful when now when you've got to have you've
Speaker 3: got three or four backing APIs or a couple of
Speaker 3: functions and an API and a data and then you
Speaker 3: start to stretch the realms of what app service is
Speaker 3: kind of really built for that in that world, right
Speaker 3: the that's so that's that's what that gets. So yeah,
Speaker 3: flattening that curve is super super important to us. Like
Speaker 3: one of the customer calls that I did leading into
Speaker 3: with Spire, I was talking to this engineering lead and
Speaker 3: he said, we said one of the questions we would
Speaker 3: ask in our standard script, because we're trying to ask
Speaker 3: a consistent set of questions, was what's keeping you up
Speaker 3: at night? Because I'm looking for the I'm looking for
Speaker 3: the answer to that question because if there's something keeping
Speaker 3: you up at night, I can try and solve it right.
Speaker 3: And his answer was, I don't know if I'm putting
Speaker 3: the lego together properly.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, it's a good one.
Speaker 3: I'm my app is built on like a pyramid of
Speaker 3: newgat packages, and I know that it works, it runs,
Speaker 3: But are these two supposed to go together? Have I
Speaker 3: configured this word properly? Like there's so much exercise left
Speaker 3: to me that I am terror that tomorrow my thing
Speaker 3: will come crashing down, And I don't really know if
Speaker 3: it's quite possible I put two things together that aren't
Speaker 3: supposed to go to get to your question, about Aspire
Speaker 3: working with other things that I've done, and that's going
Speaker 3: to cause me something that causes the world to fall apart.
Speaker 3: And so ultimately you're trying to make it so that
Speaker 3: that person can go to sleep at night and be like,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty confident, I'm good. I used all the things
Speaker 3: that they said would work that are kind of proven
Speaker 3: based upon this community and ecosystem of Aspire people building
Speaker 3: stuff to make it so that I can be more
Speaker 3: confident that I haven't made that mistake, right, And that's
Speaker 3: why in the nine keynote, I assume this comes hopefully
Speaker 3: this comes out after the keynote. Like, what we've seen
Speaker 3: is this community toolkit idea with Aspire, which is just
Speaker 3: the idea of trying to make it so that more
Speaker 3: and more people can build things that are Aspire components
Speaker 3: that you can guarantee adhere to the same kind of
Speaker 3: requirements and guidelines that an Aspire. I call on them
Speaker 3: components still even though we change the name to integrations,
Speaker 3: so like, because like what is an integration it is
Speaker 3: effectively we have this idea of a spec it means
Speaker 3: you know, you know it can wire into dependency injection.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a set of you know, ten fifteen
Speaker 3: things that in order to be an integration you have
Speaker 3: to tick. And so this idea of Inspire Community Toolkit
Speaker 3: is you or anybody who has a library that they
Speaker 3: want to be able to be an Aspire integration can
Speaker 3: also go and be in the list when you say
Speaker 3: out Aspire Integration and we can. Then we'll have a
Speaker 3: whole community toolkit kind of effort around making sure that
Speaker 3: that we can continue to build up this community of
Speaker 3: when you're building this type app and you really want
Speaker 3: this kind of guarantees, what do you do and how
Speaker 3: does it work?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: It's also still very early in Aspire. There's crazy crazy
Speaker 3: stuff we could do, right, Like, Aspire has the model
Speaker 3: of your entire application, we could map it. We can
Speaker 3: give you the full description of all the pieces of
Speaker 3: your app. What's more, you could do things that are
Speaker 3: crazy like some of the people there's a some people
Speaker 3: on the team I was talking to yesterday who were like, yeah,
Speaker 3: what if we put a proxy in between every communications section,
Speaker 3: So on your dev machine you could turn on packet
Speaker 3: loss between any in particular individual connection and you could
Speaker 3: just make that a feature of the tooling, so you
Speaker 3: run it app and you turn on packet loss right
Speaker 3: or things like that. Right, that's possible to do today,
Speaker 3: but to developers go to the effort of figuring out
Speaker 3: how to do it and turn it on Like probably not,
Speaker 3: but if it was just there and you just had
Speaker 3: to click a thing, we'll try it. Right. So there's
Speaker 3: a lot of that kind of work that you can
Speaker 3: do in the Aspire space just to try and help
Speaker 3: people build make their apps more reliable from the beginning
Speaker 3: so they don't like called up in the middle of
Speaker 3: the night or anything crazy like that.
Speaker 2: Well, not finding out the hard way that it isn't reliable, not.
Speaker 3: Finding out the hard way. We had a lot of
Speaker 3: horror stories of people finding out the hard way, and
Speaker 3: we're trying to We tried to fix all of those
Speaker 3: things for those people when we were building up.
Speaker 2: You don't find out you're logging wrong until you're eating
Speaker 2: it and then you go looking for the logs and
Speaker 2: can find them. Yeah. Absolutely, that's when you find out.
Speaker 2: You've been looking about.
Speaker 3: How do we fix that?
Speaker 2: Right? It's been a year, yeah, right, I mean you
Speaker 2: talked about Aspire the first time at dot net com
Speaker 2: for dot net eight indeed, and we did our first
Speaker 2: show with foul Er, I think January twenty four. So
Speaker 2: are we on is this V two or is this
Speaker 2: really V one? Like it felt like you were just
Speaker 2: experimenting a year ago.
Speaker 3: Isn't the isn't the common Microsoft saying that the V
Speaker 3: two is when you start trying it. Isn't that? What
Speaker 3: the isn't that what? We always just know? What people
Speaker 3: used to say is.
Speaker 2: That V three now and V three is when it's great? Yeah.
Speaker 1: V three is the golden version.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the golden version.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but I mean you had a year of
Speaker 2: feedback and pressing against this. I mean it's a club
Speaker 2: world now, right, Yeah, watch the issues it's crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So yeah, that was the goal was
Speaker 3: to get that, get the the was addressing. So one
Speaker 3: of the themes I think is part of this discussion now,
Speaker 3: which is like, what are you done? What? What are
Speaker 3: the what is the what if? Customers hit real badly?
Speaker 3: So so one of the biggest things that we that
Speaker 3: people hit a lot that we've started to try to
Speaker 3: address is just so we had this concept of developer first,
Speaker 3: OPS friendly that we used that I used to talk
Speaker 3: about with the team because like, you can't like this
Speaker 3: thing has to fit into that world right right, like,
Speaker 3: and if you super prioritize towards only the developer, you're like,
Speaker 3: sis admin guys, give what is this like? No, we can't,
Speaker 3: you can't do this right, And so you needed to
Speaker 3: build a solution that you lets you that is attractive
Speaker 3: and productive and good for developers, but then lets you
Speaker 3: easily fit into the flow that those sis admin folks want.
Speaker 3: So it was very obvious to us almost immediately once
Speaker 3: people started to use this thing that they people desperately
Speaker 3: wanted more ability to customize what the thing that they
Speaker 3: were deploying to. When they were using the kind of
Speaker 3: default deployments we should probably talk about deployments more generically,
Speaker 3: but when using the like AZD experience specifically, they wanted
Speaker 3: something more. So this is where this is the interesting
Speaker 3: thing about Aspire is Azd's not mine. But another principle
Speaker 3: that we had was kind of extreme ownership. This idea
Speaker 3: that within Aspire, at least we were not going to
Speaker 3: let the gaps between the different parts of the things
Speaker 3: that you needed we needed to work for you to
Speaker 3: be successful stop us from making changes. So if the
Speaker 3: AZD team needed to do something to make the Azure
Speaker 3: thing good, or even the AWS team needed to do
Speaker 3: something to make the AWS experience good. We would go
Speaker 3: talk to them and we were trying and figure it
Speaker 3: out right in terms of deployment. And so one of
Speaker 3: the big things with as Container apps and Aspire and
Speaker 3: doing AZD up was well, how do I change the
Speaker 3: name of the thing or like tweak this one setting
Speaker 3: or the sequel thing is real good except this bit.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to have to completely eject from
Speaker 3: the system. So you could always generate all the bicep
Speaker 3: and then you hand that off and then involve it
Speaker 3: from there check it in. But I don't want to
Speaker 3: do that. If I could avoid it, can you give
Speaker 3: me something else? And so now there's a lot more
Speaker 3: flexibility in you being able to drop into effectively a
Speaker 3: C sharp wrapper around what the BICEP generated would be
Speaker 3: within ACD, So you can tweet names, you can change
Speaker 3: settings that you previously you would have had to fully
Speaker 3: eject into, generate the bicep, check it in, and then
Speaker 3: use bicep from then on. And so there's a lot
Speaker 3: more of Now you can kind of pick the right
Speaker 3: spectrum to be able to fit that. Then there's a
Speaker 3: lot of There was a lot of people who desperately
Speaker 3: wanted to like wait for so I can say I
Speaker 3: want this to start after this thing, so you know
Speaker 3: you've got support for that. You have support for persistent
Speaker 3: containers to keep the sequel, keep the sequel server running
Speaker 3: in between the executions of my app. So we now
Speaker 3: have support for that. All of these things were all
Speaker 3: really driven from people who really who were using the
Speaker 3: thing and saying, yeah, we need this, we need this support, right,
Speaker 3: as well as a few like big internal people who
Speaker 3: were using it. You would have seen a video from
Speaker 3: a video in the keynote if you watched it from
Speaker 3: one of the architects who works on copilot. The unified
Speaker 3: like back end for copilots is built using a spire.
Speaker 3: And so whenever you're using one of the Microsoft Copilots
Speaker 3: at all through the same kind of Copola backhand, that's
Speaker 3: an Aspire like backhand API set that is the orchestrated
Speaker 3: and their devo loop uses a spire, right, it doesn't
Speaker 3: impact their production.
Speaker 2: And Glenn, I'm gonna interrupt you for one moment for
Speaker 2: these very important messages.
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Speaker 2: And we're back. It's dot net rocks. Amateur Campbell. That's
Speaker 2: Carl Franklin. Hey, Hey, hey, talking to our friend Glenn
Speaker 2: Chondron about all the dot net nine goodness. Indeed, welcome
Speaker 2: back of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And just a reminder that you can get
Speaker 1: an ad free feed of dot net rocks by becoming
Speaker 1: a five dollars a month patron at Patreon dot dot
Speaker 1: NetRocks dot com. Okay, you were saying, Glenn.
Speaker 3: I don't remember that was out somethink about. We had
Speaker 3: long we took. I think my pain point was there
Speaker 3: was lots of feedback. We did a lot of features,
Speaker 3: highlighted some of them, but it was all trying to
Speaker 3: just our goal was between when we kind of shipped
Speaker 3: halfway through dot net, halfway through dot at nine to
Speaker 3: now was all about top pain point fixed, top pain point,
Speaker 3: top pain point down donat I man, yeah, we ship
Speaker 3: when we ship. Yeah, So that's what it's been and
Speaker 3: now we're in this what I think is a really
Speaker 3: nice state. We have a lot of people who are
Speaker 3: using it for real, and that's the thing that prioritization.
Speaker 1: The thing that piqued my interest when you were talking
Speaker 1: about drop into a C sharp wrapper around stuff that
Speaker 1: you don't really understand or need to learn. Now yeh yeah,
Speaker 1: this ability is all part of a spire. That's not
Speaker 1: something that's to dot net developers without aspire or no.
Speaker 3: It will be available to it should be available to
Speaker 3: don't developers elsewhere because it's not technically part of a spire,
Speaker 3: it's just a it's a feature of the Azure developer,
Speaker 3: the az d C and the AD experience. We give
Speaker 3: you a method and we make it intuitive when you're
Speaker 3: within Aspire, but it's not we layer. We layer the
Speaker 3: software better layer and kind of segment the software better
Speaker 3: than that. Right, So you should also be able to
Speaker 3: get that outside of the Aspire experience. Love that Aspire
Speaker 3: is very much a collection of pieces that all work
Speaker 3: fine on their own, but get better when you put
Speaker 3: them all together.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So the dashboard that shows you all your hotel data,
Speaker 3: it's just an hotel dashboard. You can make anything that
Speaker 3: talk to hotel appear in that thing. It doesn't need
Speaker 3: to open telemetry in this case. Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And if you'll notice, if you go to as your
Speaker 3: Container apps now they have the dashboard, the Aspire dashboard
Speaker 3: because it's just code. They just took it and hosted
Speaker 3: at ACA. It said here, this is a cool hotel
Speaker 3: ed point, let's put it in there.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Integrations are just new get packages. The AD the AD
Speaker 3: integration for Gesture in Visual Studio is literally a search
Speaker 3: or new Get for things that are owned by the
Speaker 3: Aspire account. Like, there's no, there's nothing special about them.
Speaker 3: They are a new get package with some wire up code.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: The just the kind of way the service discovery ish
Speaker 3: stuff is environment variables, right Like, it is very much
Speaker 3: a you could do all of this stuff to that
Speaker 3: you could have done all of the things that Aspire
Speaker 3: does for you, but it makes it puts it all
Speaker 3: together for you, so you don't have to think about
Speaker 3: it as much.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's the classic thing of you know,
Speaker 1: you want to use this library or whatever, this component
Speaker 1: that might be an open source component or whatever. First
Speaker 1: you download, then you get package, then you wire it
Speaker 1: up and program cs and then you might have to
Speaker 1: add a CSS file or exact JavaScript link or all
Speaker 1: of that stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so how do we help you get there?
Speaker 3: That's kind of a lot of what it does. And
Speaker 3: then yeah, it's and then but when you put it
Speaker 3: all together, the overall the experience of all those things
Speaker 3: together is kind of mind blowing. People looking at them
Speaker 3: and say, I'm where there was this being all my life.
Speaker 2: And right yeah, yeah, real powerful effect, right like that
Speaker 2: that's the whole thing is.
Speaker 3: Indeed a very powerful cumulative effect when you put all
Speaker 3: these pieces together, but they're all individually adoptable and they're
Speaker 3: not super tightly coupled, which is it's just very nice.
Speaker 2: And more importantly, if you know, if you've got strong
Speaker 2: opinions about how you want your cloud native apps to
Speaker 2: be built, you can take the pieces out that don't
Speaker 2: work for your plan or changing. Yeah, but I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: And so you still still early days, but clearly you
Speaker 2: guys have been taking a lot of feedback, Like just
Speaker 2: look at the issues list. Oh yeah, absolutely, I haven't
Speaker 2: had time to triage this yet, but imagine you do this.
Speaker 2: How much of these issues are people don't understand how
Speaker 2: to use this versus people want to take it further?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so there is a lot of there's
Speaker 3: not as many issues for I don't understand how to
Speaker 3: do this, but there's lots of discussion. Right, So the
Speaker 3: feedback channels are filled with yeah, but what is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right, filled with ye but what is it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think building an app with a spire would be
Speaker 1: a great learning opportunity for somebody who doesn't has never
Speaker 1: done reddis right And instead of you know, going to
Speaker 1: the documentation, spending a whole day or two reading it
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out how to cram it into
Speaker 1: your app. You use a spire and then go and
Speaker 1: look and see what it what it did. Yep, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know that that makes total sense to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, there's a it's a it is good on
Speaker 3: that gun. And that's that's partly because of that effort
Speaker 3: to try to kind of make learning linear again, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And to smooth these things out. Give us the pit
Speaker 2: of success here. Yeah, that if you just follow the defaults,
Speaker 2: you're going to be in a good place. And if
Speaker 2: you want to go further you can, right, And.
Speaker 3: Then it helps your bigger enterprises because the bigger enterprise
Speaker 3: wants to try and get some level of consistency across
Speaker 3: twenty teams. So now you've got you've got that lever
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: You can really press against those templates and making where
Speaker 2: you want it to be. I don't want to do
Speaker 2: a whole show on Inspire because there's more stuff going
Speaker 2: on Dot nine. Let's do the AI conversation. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: kind of on the radar for a lot of folks
Speaker 2: these days, for.
Speaker 3: A lot of people. Yeah. So one of the big things,
Speaker 3: the first call out. I think I would say on
Speaker 3: that front is if you haven't looked at Sanderson's kind
Speaker 3: of sample apps. We talked about Shop. We did this
Speaker 3: kind of rework of the e Shop sample app, make
Speaker 3: it all cloudified. It's running with a spire and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. Right, So, as one of the engineers on
Speaker 3: our team said, we're now expanding the Shop cinematic universe
Speaker 3: to create this E Shop back of house application, which is,
Speaker 3: imagine that you were the support person having to deal
Speaker 3: with customer support for that E shop kind of app.
Speaker 3: We build that app, and so it uses a lot
Speaker 3: of AI in ways. It's sometimes a convincing sometimes not
Speaker 3: as obvious to people because the every AIDEMO you've ever
Speaker 3: seen is how do I chat?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And so it uses it for filtering, it uses it
Speaker 3: for summarization, It uses it to like, help me make
Speaker 3: sure I'm worth looking at the most important issue, help
Speaker 3: me find the right when I get the feedback ticket
Speaker 3: where I want to respond with r TFM read the
Speaker 3: manual with an F in the middle. How do I
Speaker 3: ask the AI to find the bit in the manual
Speaker 3: that I should them to so that I don't have
Speaker 3: to go search through the manual like if things all
Speaker 3: those sort of functionality exists in that sample app and
Speaker 3: it's all put together and it's working well, and Santus
Speaker 3: has done some talks on it, and Sanus is a
Speaker 3: great presenter.
Speaker 2: So like, I'm sure you're I'm going to grab a
Speaker 2: link to his video from from.
Speaker 3: So absolutely so watch all that, especially if you're like, yeah,
Speaker 3: but why do I care about AI If I don't,
Speaker 3: if I don't have I don't work in an app
Speaker 3: where I need a chatbot, So what would I do?
Speaker 3: Go look at some of his stuff. It is very good.
Speaker 2: It's inspirational for thinking more broadly about what these tools
Speaker 2: can do for you.
Speaker 3: Absolutely right, So then in support of that, so what
Speaker 3: does the Donat team do? What does my team do?
Speaker 3: So we have this way. We we have started with
Speaker 3: effectively primitives. We're looking at, Okay, you need to tokenize
Speaker 3: strings in this world. What's the fastest, best, most pop
Speaker 3: what's the best tokenizer that everybody in the world should use.
Speaker 3: Let's make sure an implementation of that exists. Like these
Speaker 3: very bare like numerics, like these very very low level
Speaker 3: underline primitives that build a bunch of this stuff and
Speaker 3: then effectively we just start building up as we build
Speaker 3: building blocks and building blocks and building blocks that allow
Speaker 3: you to do the to communicate with the to do
Speaker 3: this generative AI task, and I want to say communicate
Speaker 3: with right. So in the dot an ecosystem, you have
Speaker 3: semantic kernel, and you have Azure SDKs, you have all
Speaker 3: of the like these libraries to be able to do
Speaker 3: kind of generative AI stuff. We help and support all
Speaker 3: of those things, and then we look at, okay, well,
Speaker 3: what is the underpinning that we should be building that
Speaker 3: all of these people need? And the is the forever question.
Speaker 3: What is the thing we should build so that they
Speaker 3: don't have to then then everybody will adopt it, and
Speaker 3: then will be everybody will be in a better place.
Speaker 3: So that's where we've been going. So one of the
Speaker 3: things you're seeing in don N nine is this extensions AI.
Speaker 3: We talked about it a bit beforehand. It's semantic kernel
Speaker 3: already exists, and then extensions AI is this kind of
Speaker 3: building block layer for I want to talk to an LM,
Speaker 3: how I want to talk to an LM, And what
Speaker 3: that library set allows you to do is is do
Speaker 3: kind of a chat completion, which is what a lot
Speaker 3: of the stuff, even the stuff that isn't chat kind
Speaker 3: of boils down to I'm going to send a string
Speaker 3: to a server and I'm going to get a string back,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to figure out what it means. And
Speaker 3: I want to do the stuff where I teach that
Speaker 3: about my own data, and I want to have telemetry
Speaker 3: plugged in and such. And it gives you a consistent
Speaker 3: abstraction over many different types of lms. So if you're
Speaker 3: going to use open Ai, or you're going to use
Speaker 3: some local thing, or you're going to use like Olama,
Speaker 3: or you're going to use you can have the same
Speaker 3: programming experience against a bunch of different models that can
Speaker 3: all plug into this system. What's interesting about it is
Speaker 3: it effectively uses a middleware pipeline, so the same as
Speaker 3: I's been a core middleware for those of you playing
Speaker 3: along at home. So you made a request effectively in
Speaker 3: this world, which is a chat completion, and it goes
Speaker 3: through this middleware pipeline, and so that moves implementation of
Speaker 3: things like logging out of the provider that is specific
Speaker 3: to the LM and into the generic library, such that
Speaker 3: every provider doesn't have to do all the logging stuff
Speaker 3: so you as a consumer get consistent logging, you get
Speaker 3: consistent tool calling where it will where one of the
Speaker 3: things LM's will do is call your methods if they can't,
Speaker 3: if they can't, if they need to. Right. It has
Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff built into this middlewhere layer
Speaker 3: as opposed to being each provider. That makes it easier
Speaker 3: to write providers. That hopefully means we get more providers.
Speaker 3: It also allows other things like semantic kernel to like
Speaker 3: layer on top and get those same benefits.
Speaker 1: Right, do you do you foresee people using AI for
Speaker 1: things we typically code forms over data for like I'll
Speaker 1: give you an example, selecting a report right with a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of filters. Do you instead of having drop
Speaker 1: down combo boxes and things that fill and refill and
Speaker 1: check boxes and whatever. Would you foresee somebody just opening
Speaker 1: a text box and say give me all this data
Speaker 1: between this date and that date with this you know,
Speaker 1: particular film and blah blah blah and replace all of
Speaker 1: that UI code.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems entirely likely that would happen. I think
Speaker 3: what will happen first is that you'll use AI to
Speaker 3: build that that form that you just described. First step, Right,
Speaker 3: co pilots and friends and all of the tooling in
Speaker 3: visual studio visual studio code like you even see like
Speaker 3: you see the explosion of AI assisted coding. Right, So
Speaker 3: the first step one would be I want to build
Speaker 3: that form, and then the AI says, sure, here's all
Speaker 3: the UI.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: The second part would be would be, yeah, I think
Speaker 3: you could get to that point. Would it be faster,
Speaker 3: would it be better for the end consumer? I'm not
Speaker 3: one hundred percent sure, right.
Speaker 1: Well, at least giving them the option, right, you could.
Speaker 3: Give them the option I think will absolutely happen, will
Speaker 3: it be? But I still suspect you'll have your kind
Speaker 3: of You'll still want your your thing. That is the
Speaker 3: thing everybody looks at. We already know what it is,
Speaker 3: so let's make it real as so I don't have
Speaker 3: to chat because I think that process will involve some
Speaker 3: iteration to get exactly what you want every time, So
Speaker 3: you won't want to do that for the report you
Speaker 3: have to look at every second day.
Speaker 1: Right, And then on top of that, you could add
Speaker 1: speech recognition so that you could just literally talk to
Speaker 1: the app and get absolutely what you want out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but more important, but more also interesting that is
Speaker 3: just mining for insights, right, Like, if you're going to
Speaker 3: have that conversation away where the thing can understand all
Speaker 3: the data, can you ask you questions just like you know,
Speaker 3: what has my growth been? What is my year over
Speaker 3: year growth?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it would just tell you and then you
Speaker 3: don't need to go look at the chart to interpret
Speaker 3: what the year of year growth is. Right, So to
Speaker 3: give you so.
Speaker 1: Much, you might have an app which is your main app,
Speaker 1: and then you might have this AI bot for lack
Speaker 1: of a better thing that you just converse with to
Speaker 1: get data out of your back end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you see the other experiments people have
Speaker 3: gotten where you're effectively getting a free junior dev of like,
Speaker 3: which is just AI agents writing like fixing, doing prs
Speaker 3: for you against issues that are logged on your repot.
Speaker 2: Right, that's insane, well at least writing my pr our
Speaker 2: comment good lord.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolute ability.
Speaker 2: To actually remember, well not remember, but I analyze everything
Speaker 2: I've changed and give me a summer.
Speaker 3: It give me a summer, it's not in my head, right,
Speaker 3: write all the unit tests for me, right, Like, Ultimately
Speaker 3: you want you want to get to a point on
Speaker 3: that AI assistance where the AI is doing all the
Speaker 3: toil of code so that you could do the fun
Speaker 3: parts right, But that's.
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, they're just their augmentation tools and they're a
Speaker 2: good one. It doesn't It writes unit tests that are okay,
Speaker 2: but you know, it's still easier to edit a test
Speaker 2: than it is to write them from scratch, right, and
Speaker 2: sometimes it spits out stuff you just haven't thought of.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. What's interesting for me, Like, I guess I want
Speaker 3: to talk about challenges that are maybe are unique to
Speaker 3: me on this front and maybe not, but hopefully it's
Speaker 3: interesting to people. Is like you can't put that stuff
Speaker 3: in a box of ships annually yet, yeah, because it's
Speaker 3: some sort like there's there's this challenge within the AI space.
Speaker 3: It's within Aspire as well. Different so I guess it's
Speaker 3: common for both of those things but for different reasons.
Speaker 3: But both of those areas are resistant to we're going
Speaker 3: to ship it once every year and call it good
Speaker 3: and put it and install it on everybody's machine, either
Speaker 3: because the pace is really fast or because you're depending
Speaker 3: on lots of stuff that you don't control. In the
Speaker 3: case you Aspire, right, if we need to update the
Speaker 3: redest client that we depend upon we'll need to do
Speaker 3: an update, right, and in the AIS case this there
Speaker 3: might be some new way of doing something that is
Speaker 3: very important. Therefore, both of them are kind of not
Speaker 3: we're shipping them along with everything else in don At nine,
Speaker 3: but we're making sure that mechanically they're not tied to shipping,
Speaker 3: only being able to ship when we ship a major
Speaker 3: version of the thing.
Speaker 2: Sure, and you need to be able to swap out
Speaker 2: what Opening Eye Library are using. Absolutely, I would hope
Speaker 2: you can switch to a local instance of Cloud if
Speaker 2: you want, or a LAMA, right, like, yeah, that's.
Speaker 3: All that sort of stuff. Yeah, but then also like
Speaker 3: what's into thing about that is Aspire nine works on
Speaker 3: DONNA eight But like normally we've we've we we have
Speaker 3: for some time tried to keep nine is nine eighties
Speaker 3: eight seven is seven because it's just easier, it's far
Speaker 3: easier to reason about.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Everybody's brain breaks when you start saying, but technically you
Speaker 3: could be using seven, version seven of this on version
Speaker 3: six of that with version four of this thing over here,
Speaker 3: and then your brain explodes.
Speaker 2: Where I feel like one version of Aspire is good.
Speaker 3: And that's and so yeah, so but if it's two versions.
Speaker 3: If it's Aspire eight as a world and Aspire nine
Speaker 3: as a world, and they're working on a dot net
Speaker 3: version which is either donat eight or nine, that's probably understandable.
Speaker 3: But that's part of this, like the things I don't
Speaker 3: necessarily always ship in the box now, the same as
Speaker 3: with kind of extensions AI, and that's we can't go
Speaker 3: to the world where everything individually ships, because we tried
Speaker 3: that in the early days of Core. If any of
Speaker 3: you remember.
Speaker 2: We do, and that ad is lts like, it makes
Speaker 2: sense to me you'd support two versions of dot.
Speaker 3: Now indeed, which is another discussion that you then kind
Speaker 3: of have internally about, oh, maybe this makes a lot
Speaker 3: of sense, maybe we should do this more. We haven't
Speaker 3: made decisions on those front, but we've certainly talked about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, but you're definitely feeling around for it's some things
Speaker 2: you just want to keep sync. Like, I'm okay with
Speaker 2: you calling it Aspire nine. Yeah, even though there's no
Speaker 2: way you've made nine versions or anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, even though there's no version exactly. Yeah, because
Speaker 3: it's just you've got to try and you have to
Speaker 3: balance the well, technically, these things can all be independent versus. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but how should people think about it? Because you need
Speaker 3: to make it easy for everybody at the keyboard trying
Speaker 3: to figure out what they've got to do. You need
Speaker 3: to balance all of that. You've got to balance that thing.
Speaker 3: And then it's easy to invent scenarios of like, but
Speaker 3: what if we add a thing here feeds bug fixed
Speaker 3: to this package only and somebody really wants that, And
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, but really.
Speaker 2: Well, and especially in fast generating stuff, there should only
Speaker 2: be one current version of Aspire that I don't care
Speaker 2: what you're working on on the back end, it works, yeah, ideally,
Speaker 2: and same for all of this gen AI stuff because
Speaker 2: it is so iterating so rapidly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then and then then in the AI stuff, the
Speaker 3: challenge is figuring out the things that are going to
Speaker 3: be enduring. Yeah, because you don't want to push everything down, right,
Speaker 3: So we have chat completions in and some people will
Speaker 3: look at that and say that's cute, like, but what
Speaker 3: about this other like mountain and stuff that exists in
Speaker 3: that ecosystem, Like what about audio? What about streaming audio
Speaker 3: backwards and forwards or like some some other thing. Right,
Speaker 3: We'll be like yeah, yeah, but we can't. We can't
Speaker 3: move different layers of dot and need to can move
Speaker 3: at different speeds, and we don't help anybody if we
Speaker 3: if we evolve too fast in the library, in the
Speaker 3: in the well.
Speaker 2: Some folks are arguing that a version of dot net
Speaker 2: every year is too fast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, yeah, but that's already too fast for
Speaker 3: some people, right, And I think with that is actually
Speaker 3: often more about people when people don't want to feel
Speaker 3: forced to move more than they care about the fact
Speaker 3: that there's another version. And also people feel bad if
Speaker 3: the versions get too far ahead of them.
Speaker 2: When you're at six, you're missing out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of people are on six. By the way,
Speaker 3: it's the most popular, not new, it's the most popular.
Speaker 2: Version that the LTS. Exactly.
Speaker 3: So the data tells us that roughly half of the
Speaker 3: dot netir base only moved from LTS to LTS.
Speaker 2: That's fine, that's good. That's a good thing to know.
Speaker 2: It just speaks to people care about that. Like there's
Speaker 2: another debate that is why why I have an LTS
Speaker 2: and a non LTS, like just make them all the same,
Speaker 2: But clearly it matters to a certain group of folks,
Speaker 2: it does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, And I mean I'll included
Speaker 2: a link of Stephen Tabbs every year amazing, ridiculously complicated.
Speaker 2: You need to spend an afternoon reading blog post on performance. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: But I firmly in the camp of when you swip
Speaker 2: to a newer version of dot net, stuff's faster. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you just get two ways about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for all of for everybody listening, every version is faster.
Speaker 3: That's that's a that's a true is full step. We
Speaker 3: tried to we make it. We try to make every
Speaker 3: version of fast. And there's some amazing experiments happening, Like
Speaker 3: the runtime team has been experimenting with acinc and like
Speaker 3: a different version of acinc, Like like, not a different version,
Speaker 3: We're not going to change, different approach, different approach. What
Speaker 3: if the what if acinc was more of a run
Speaker 3: time feature and less of a compiler feature.
Speaker 2: Interesting?
Speaker 3: What does it do to perth?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: What scenarios are better? What scenarios worst?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Like, what does that look like.
Speaker 2: Rather than just spitting out acinc i L with all
Speaker 2: of its overhead, what if you actually had underpinnings in
Speaker 2: the OS that under in the language that did this
Speaker 2: exactly right?
Speaker 3: So, like experiments for that like it grew growing out
Speaker 3: of you know you maybe you saw some of our
Speaker 3: experimentation with green threads and doesn't make sense to have
Speaker 3: a green thread model in dot net. The outcome of
Speaker 3: that was, yes, we could do this, but it would
Speaker 3: like be yet another way of doing ac Really what
Speaker 3: you need another one that I don't know what significant benefit.
Speaker 1: What are green threads that?
Speaker 3: It's they're kind of like the way that go routines
Speaker 3: in go work. It's just a it's a it's a
Speaker 3: different way of doing a sinc I'm not it's a
Speaker 3: bit far from the point to worry about it. Sure,
Speaker 3: we can grab a link, but what we'll do is
Speaker 3: grab a link to.
Speaker 2: Wed To the to the original issue called the Green
Speaker 2: thread Experiments. Good.
Speaker 3: It's a good it's a good interesting read if you
Speaker 3: care about learning what is green threads or about just
Speaker 3: this topic in general. But to be honest, something the
Speaker 3: most of you all probably don't have to care about.
Speaker 1: So, you know, so I want to just go back
Speaker 1: before we sign off here, you were talking about AOT
Speaker 1: and how AOT is progressing. Our friend Dylan Beattie, we
Speaker 1: just talked to think last week. Before this comes out
Speaker 1: right Richard.
Speaker 2: Something like that.
Speaker 1: He's great, yeah, all right, so he has a language
Speaker 1: called rock Star, and you know, of course it's fun.
Speaker 1: But he was waiting for AOT to really come into
Speaker 1: its own and he was like, dot Net eight finally delivered.
Speaker 1: So he can, you know, with a GitHub action, produce
Speaker 1: a fully you know, native version of his interactions the
Speaker 1: compiler or whatever you want to call it for all platforms.
Speaker 1: And so that's there in eight and dot net nin
Speaker 1: Does it just make faster and smaller executables or what?
Speaker 3: No? No, So it's more of the IoT at this
Speaker 3: point is the more of the ecosystem just works. So
Speaker 3: like in AF doesn't really work right, EF does a
Speaker 3: lot of things that don't work super great in AOT.
Speaker 3: So if you're trying to do a compiler, it's one
Speaker 3: hundred percent fine, but some parts of the stack don't
Speaker 3: necessarily work super well with it. And so it's it's
Speaker 3: more about broadening the ecosystem so that more and more
Speaker 3: of the things just work without you thinking about it.
Speaker 3: Is what the progression for AOT is for at least
Speaker 3: the next year or two or three, okay yo.
Speaker 2: In the context of AOT, just another subject before a
Speaker 2: run out of time Windows on ARM. Yeah, So, I
Speaker 2: mean my presumption has always been you guys are going
Speaker 2: to take care of this for us. It's dot net developers.
Speaker 2: If you want to run on ARM, you run on Arm,
Speaker 2: and Git will simply do.
Speaker 3: It the magic of Git.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. But if you're aoting do you have to
Speaker 2: pick a platform? Yes, yeah, so you're and the obvious
Speaker 2: one is x sixty four and because that's what everybody's running,
Speaker 2: so that makes it pretty easy. And then flip an
Speaker 2: ARM shows up and you're.
Speaker 3: Like, and then now you've got to do a new build.
Speaker 3: You need a new compile. You need a new compilation
Speaker 3: for the new platform that is targeting. That's the price
Speaker 3: of AOTRUS one of the process.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But if you are a compiler you probably want that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And well, and if you are deploying a backhand
Speaker 2: chunk of code that needs to be absolutely as fast
Speaker 2: as possible and only runs in exactly one place as
Speaker 2: specific you know, instance in the measure, you can aot
Speaker 2: that thing.
Speaker 3: Also, if you're running into container and where you have
Speaker 3: a lot of control over this thing, ye might specify
Speaker 3: the way specify a lot of that plat form information
Speaker 3: so you know it's never going to change, right, But
Speaker 3: to your point, to some extent, you're still running on
Speaker 3: a CPU, like what do you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you are, and that's just the job of the
Speaker 2: run time was to the CLR was to take care
Speaker 2: of this for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It is interesting to think because they are starting to
Speaker 2: roll out those big my ARM processors into Azure. Now
Speaker 2: that it's one thing for me to build in dot
Speaker 2: net and run it in a regular app service or
Speaker 2: then run it on a Linux instance, but now i'd
Speaker 2: have the option to run it as an ARM instance
Speaker 2: and say, you know that it's like twenty percent twenty
Speaker 2: five percent cheaper to running on a Linux instance. I
Speaker 2: wonder what it's going to be on an ARM instance
Speaker 2: that's less performance?
Speaker 3: Indeed, I don't know. Ye, yes, if you're using normal
Speaker 3: dot net then yeah, that we do. We've got we
Speaker 3: got you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's going to work. It's just like
Speaker 2: the simpler architecture of ARM, the way that it processes instructions.
Speaker 2: And I am clearly a hardware geek. I wonder if
Speaker 2: it'll actually outperform and be cheaper from a resource consumption perspective.
Speaker 2: But you guys also haven't had as much time to
Speaker 2: optimize for ARM. Yet like maybe another version or two
Speaker 2: from now, your ARM optimizations will be stunning.
Speaker 3: And it might well be that that's the thing that makes
Speaker 3: the perfect changes from a version in the future.
Speaker 2: Who knows, right, yeah, and jumps out again. Right, it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: you want this thing to rock running on an ARM instance, Andrew.
Speaker 1: I always I still can't get out of the mindset
Speaker 1: that well I will, but that ARM means lower power,
Speaker 1: right that is. But it isn't that that is totally changed.
Speaker 1: Isn't the MacBook M two kind of stuff? Isn't that
Speaker 1: an ARM.
Speaker 2: Chip whethery're up to N four now? And yes, I
Speaker 2: would say highest performance set up that exists right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's because it's just super asic, right, Like it's the
Speaker 2: processor and the GPU and the CP and and the
Speaker 2: NPU and like everything integrated on this chip of doom.
Speaker 1: Right yeah.
Speaker 2: So, and that's where they're getting a lot of their wins.
Speaker 2: And that's to be a Dragon did with their Ultra AX, right,
Speaker 2: that's just new Windows on ARM platform. It's that process.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is and this is part of the world
Speaker 3: that I don't spend as much time in. But the
Speaker 3: the when you start looking at the assembly that is
Speaker 3: getting generated when against x eighty six or A versus
Speaker 3: ARM versus Zombie two and such, it's like the ARM
Speaker 3: instruction set is getting fairly large. But like there's some
Speaker 3: cool stuff I've watched some people recently where you decompile it.
Speaker 3: If you use like one of the tools to do
Speaker 3: decompletion and you put like x eighty six versus ARM,
Speaker 3: and then you take the same code and you look
Speaker 3: at what the assembly looks at, it's vastly different and
Speaker 3: frequently looks Wastimply.
Speaker 2: You know, X sixty four x eighty six has this
Speaker 2: baggage of decades. You know that it's bridged from eight
Speaker 2: bit to sixty bit, to thirty two bit to sixty
Speaker 2: four bit, and ARM has only been thirty three or
Speaker 2: sixty four. Like, they're just fundamentally simpler. And you know,
Speaker 2: to the point where that snap Dragon machine is emulating
Speaker 2: X sixty four fast enough that you you barely notice it.
Speaker 2: It's more power consumptive, but it's fast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for some of the for some of the people
Speaker 3: out there who are interested in this, you should absolutely well.
Speaker 3: First of all, Tobe and handsmen do some deep dot
Speaker 3: net where they drop to assembly. I believe you should
Speaker 3: probably watch some of that, but also just jump into
Speaker 3: some of the decompiler apps that are out there. It's
Speaker 3: write something basic.
Speaker 1: Just do it.
Speaker 3: Just do it, Yeah, do a console that right line
Speaker 3: and then look at the IL but then start and
Speaker 3: then start clicking around and look at some of the assembly,
Speaker 3: not to try and understand it, just to like have
Speaker 3: a look and see how it goes. If you and
Speaker 3: if you do want to learn that layer of the stack,
Speaker 3: like go nuts. It's so easy. It's not not easy.
Speaker 3: It is so available now for you if you want
Speaker 3: to choose to go into that part of the stack
Speaker 3: to go do it like you can do that now.
Speaker 3: It was kind of impossible for a long time for
Speaker 3: you to really figure that stuff out. And now there's
Speaker 3: lots more resources available. There's lots of very easy tool
Speaker 3: to just write some code. See what the output will
Speaker 3: be looked. Like last last weekend, I spent two hours
Speaker 3: and I had a basic app. I had a basic
Speaker 3: OS writing to the console right like I had created
Speaker 3: a grub bootloader that like booted an emulator in QMU
Speaker 3: and like was writing Hello World to the screen right.
Speaker 3: That was like I could follow a tutorial on the
Speaker 3: internet to get to the point where I was booting hardware.
Speaker 3: That's insane and it's amazing crazy, Like doesn't matter which
Speaker 3: part of the computing world that you want to be
Speaker 3: involved in right now, the availability of materials, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: So even though we said earlier that it would be
Speaker 3: scary in horror and maybe I wouldn't want to be
Speaker 3: a developed new developer these days, on the other hand, man,
Speaker 3: how much more stuff is available for me to learn
Speaker 3: if I'm a new developer these days.
Speaker 2: It's so much more to do. But this is where
Speaker 2: the tooling comes into play. Yeah, he you know, two
Speaker 2: years ago building cloud native and dot Net hard right,
Speaker 2: aspier maybe young, But it's easier now yep, and it'll
Speaker 2: only get easier from here.
Speaker 3: Yeah. This is the advantage of kind of Dotnet as
Speaker 3: a platform, right is because you have us my team
Speaker 3: constantly looking at what sort of does everybody have to build?
Speaker 3: How do we make that as easy as possible? And
Speaker 3: then as so as Donet evolves type of apps you
Speaker 3: need to build, chances are we've been making that easier
Speaker 3: for a bit for you, or at least we will
Speaker 3: be in a year from now. It's one of the
Speaker 3: challenges I try to set for myself and for my
Speaker 3: team is that constant progression of what what does modern mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right, we're like, what is what is the if I
Speaker 3: was to go do if I if I am got
Speaker 3: a green fields project today and I'm like, yes, this time,
Speaker 3: this time, we're going to do it, right, then what
Speaker 3: would actually what would I think I would build and like?
Speaker 3: And how do I make that thing that you're trying
Speaker 3: to build be amazing without letting the people who aren't
Speaker 3: don't get the chance to do that green fields fall
Speaker 3: by the wayside, right, because you also need the It's
Speaker 3: often far more impactful for me to help the person
Speaker 3: who needs to get to that new, that different architecture.
Speaker 2: I think you have to do this in two steps. First,
Speaker 2: is what's the perfect greenfield athlmitation? And then how do
Speaker 2: you have these tools to bridge my brownfield after that
Speaker 2: space exactly.
Speaker 3: When you see I aspire trying to bridge that. Well, now, yeah,
Speaker 3: but you're doing a couple of years ago, we didn't
Speaker 3: know what the ideal of greenwill field space is. Right,
Speaker 3: you can and there's still like areas of there's still
Speaker 3: lots of areas to go look at, in that, in that,
Speaker 3: in this whole space.
Speaker 1: Well, Glenn, what's next for you after dart Net nine?
Speaker 1: What's in your inbox?
Speaker 3: I suspect I think ten is the next number after nine.
Speaker 1: You know, I had a feeling it's it's weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny that thing thinking about.
Speaker 1: Like take a vacation or something before you jump back in.
Speaker 3: And typically December gets pretty quiet on the team, like
Speaker 3: towards the end of November and December.
Speaker 2: And I gotta bet there's a bunch of stuff that's
Speaker 2: sitting in like a v next topper that didn't make
Speaker 2: it there is.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of teams, there's a lot of
Speaker 3: people who are now going through their backlogs. So there's
Speaker 3: a lot of backlog grooming happening at the moment, like
Speaker 3: what are the things we want to pop? We want
Speaker 3: to pop that we want to bring up in the
Speaker 3: next version. Aspire needs to do like some miners before ten,
Speaker 3: so it'll do some like backwards compatibile, like let's throw
Speaker 3: a few brand new features in here, like we just
Speaker 3: ship support for big areas like functions and friends, So
Speaker 3: they'll have to ship and they'll have to ship before
Speaker 3: the next version. There's a lot of that. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of which of these experiments do we now want
Speaker 3: to bring forward, which of them do we won't? A
Speaker 3: lot of those kinds of decisions have to be made, And.
Speaker 1: Then there's some Gotchas and Blazer that needed dressing.
Speaker 3: There is a lot of work on all of the platforms, right,
Speaker 3: they just all need constant evolution and constant love to
Speaker 3: make better. Maui has gotten way better, Blazer is significantly
Speaker 3: betting better, but Blazer in practice only very recently will
Speaker 3: kind of switch into this full stack kind of almost
Speaker 3: better framework mode of being a web stack. So like
Speaker 3: there's a lot of work there there. We've been talking
Speaker 3: a lot about reliability of connections within Blazer and trying
Speaker 3: to make sure circuits and connections and stuff and much
Speaker 3: more reliable and resilient. And what work can do there
Speaker 3: for example, like as well as a whole backlog of
Speaker 3: stuff that team has. Who knows what's going to happen
Speaker 3: in AI six months from now that people are going
Speaker 3: to need to use, like I need people like I
Speaker 3: need big companies who are today knocking on my door
Speaker 3: saying We've got a fleet of donet applications and we
Speaker 3: want them to using this new generative by staff today.
Speaker 2: Right, what do you got?
Speaker 3: So I need to figure out how to answer those
Speaker 3: people and then uh, and then and then all of
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff, Like every every week is different.
Speaker 2: It's a pretty cool problems, Glenn. Cool. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: still problems, but they're cool.
Speaker 3: I have a cool job, don't don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3: Not many other jobs where I get to listen to
Speaker 3: somebody talk to me about like a GC and like
Speaker 3: a runtime like acinc stuff as well as AI and
Speaker 3: like how we're going to do cloud native stuff and
Speaker 3: all in one week, right is all?
Speaker 1: That's good. It's all good stuff, Glenn Conder And thank
Speaker 1: you for spending this time with us. And wow, what
Speaker 1: a great what a great conversation.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 3: Hopefully it was enjoyable to everybody out there. And I'll
Speaker 3: see you all next.
Speaker 1: Time, all right, And we'll talk to you, dear listener
Speaker 1: next time. I'm dot net Products. Dot net Rocks is
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Speaker 3: You got jam vans
Speaker 1: And the taxes are predial