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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster House presents Monster Talks, a proud member of the

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<v Speaker 2>Airwave Media podcast network, home of such shows as Subtext,

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<v Speaker 2>The Projection Booth and the Daily Meditation Podcast. If you'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast

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<v Speaker 2>dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 2>A giant, very creature.

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<v Speaker 3>Part eight part Matt in Luckness, a twenty four mile

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<v Speaker 3>long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monster Talk.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, they're Monster Talkers. Today we got a real treat

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<v Speaker 2>for you. That was a long time in the making.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't recall when the first listener email suggested I

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<v Speaker 2>check out the PBS web series monstrum Or, who first

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<v Speaker 2>asked if we could get host Emily Zarka onto Monster

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<v Speaker 2>Talk as a guest. But there have been a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of messages like that, and I've finally managed to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to her last September at Dragon Con and introduce myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm excited to say that despite our respectively busy schedules,

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<v Speaker 2>we managed to get this chat arranged and I think

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<v Speaker 2>we'll probably talk again in the future because the interests

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<v Speaker 2>of hers in ours has so much overlap, and both

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<v Speaker 2>of our shows express a deep passion for the history

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<v Speaker 2>and culture of monsters around the world. You can find

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<v Speaker 2>links to Monstrum in our show notes, or you can

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<v Speaker 2>just go over to YouTube and search for the word monstrum.

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<v Speaker 2>Monstrum and be sure to check out other interesting shows

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<v Speaker 2>from PBS's channels, Storied, which produces high quality content on monsters, language, folklore,

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<v Speaker 2>and other aspects of the humanities. One little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>bookkeeping I need to tell you about is that we

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be changing our advertising partnership in platforms soon.

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<v Speaker 2>We appreciate the opportunity that Airwave has given us and

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<v Speaker 2>we wish them success with their continuing efforts to generate

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<v Speaker 2>revenue in the science communication space. If all goes well,

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<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't need to make any changes on your end,

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<v Speaker 2>but do keep an eye on your feed as we

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<v Speaker 2>roll into August to make sure that you're getting all

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<v Speaker 2>your Monster Talk content as expected. Remember if you ever

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<v Speaker 2>have trouble getting episodes or you're not sure. If your

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<v Speaker 2>feed has the latest, you can always go over to

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk and find our entire back catalog. I'll continue

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<v Speaker 2>to post reminders of this until we've made our transition,

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<v Speaker 2>and thanks again to Airway for working with us through

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<v Speaker 2>this change. Now let's get to the Monstertle. In this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to be talking with doctor Emily Zarka. She

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<v Speaker 2>is on the faculty of the English Department at Arizona

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<v Speaker 2>State University, teaching undergraduate and graduate classes and composition in literature,

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<v Speaker 2>and serves as ASU's official Monster Expert. Listeners will probably

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<v Speaker 2>know her as the creator, writer, and host of the

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<v Speaker 2>popular YouTube series Monstroum, which is the flagship show on

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<v Speaker 2>PBS's storied Humanity channel, and we're really excited to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to her and so welcome to Yeah, welcome to the show,

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Zarka.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, Thank you so much. It's great to talk to

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<v Speaker 1>you all.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. I know from having heard you speak at Dragon

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<v Speaker 2>Con that you're even deeper into this stuff than I

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<v Speaker 2>think having a YouTube channel would suggest, So I was.

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<v Speaker 2>I was really excited to hear you sort of go

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<v Speaker 2>deep on that panel that I heard, and I thought

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we could get you to open up a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about that with us today in our audience. I

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<v Speaker 2>think our audience is well informed on monsters, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>deeper than maybe your average person. But before we do

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<v Speaker 2>all that, could you tell us how you got into

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<v Speaker 2>the academic side of using monsters in your teaching, because wow,

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<v Speaker 2>I love it when people manage to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you, I do too. I would say that

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<v Speaker 1>I use my research with monsters and more of the

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<v Speaker 1>research side than the teaching side. Unfortunately, I'm fingers crossed

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<v Speaker 1>for you know, a large lecture class on just monsters.

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<v Speaker 1>But I live and breathe this stuff, I truly do.

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<v Speaker 1>My interest in monsters and horror in general started when

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<v Speaker 1>I was a kid, when I was very young, and

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<v Speaker 1>I always just had this true affinity for the genre,

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<v Speaker 1>and back then I didn't really understand why. But during

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<v Speaker 1>my career at Versus the Colorado I had some absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>wonderful professors who sort of solidified what I'd kind of

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<v Speaker 1>known deep down, that horror does have meaning, that monsters

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<v Speaker 1>serve a larger purpose, and that you know, sparked an

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<v Speaker 1>honors thesis that became the you know, part of the

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<v Speaker 1>cover letter for my PhD applications. And then to my

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<v Speaker 1>actual dissertation, which looks at representations of the undead in

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<v Speaker 1>the British Gothic Romantic period, and doing that specific research

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<v Speaker 1>on the undead, I just way I treat research in general,

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<v Speaker 1>I cast a really wide net and I find myself

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<v Speaker 1>going into these I call them like research holes or

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<v Speaker 1>research spirals where I'm you know, reading for two hours

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<v Speaker 1>about what mummy flesh might have tasted like, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>not really relevant, you know, like the chapter that I'm writing,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm fascinated by it. And through the work I

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<v Speaker 1>was doing in grad school looking at folklore and literature

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<v Speaker 1>and the science and history and politics and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>social factors that really do contribute to our construction of

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<v Speaker 1>these monstrous narratives, I realized that I've felt that that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of knowledge and information shouldn't be just behind the

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<v Speaker 1>doors of higher academia. And I became really passionate about

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<v Speaker 1>being a public scholar, so taking my expertise and making

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<v Speaker 1>it more accessible for as many people as possible, which

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<v Speaker 1>led me to the base concept from Monstrom and then

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<v Speaker 1>to working with PBS. And since then I've had the

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<v Speaker 1>absolute joy of doing things, like you said, like dragon

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<v Speaker 1>con and you know, writing blurbs for anthologies and book

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<v Speaker 1>I just I've bet at San Diego Comic Con. I've

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<v Speaker 1>just had this truly crazy journey of being able to

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<v Speaker 1>research what I love and talk about what I love,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully make connections with other like minded individuals like yourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that these stories that some people dismiss as

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<v Speaker 1>not being significant actually have real world importance and significance

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<v Speaker 1>even just outside of storytelling.

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<v Speaker 3>Fantastic, Emily, you difinitely a kind of person.

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<v Speaker 4>We're used to going down rabbit holes and doing deep

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<v Speaker 4>dives into all of these topics.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think we're kind of jealous, really a little bit, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>of your monsterm geek.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, that is just seems like a dream job.

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<v Speaker 4>So could you tell us a little bit about how

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<v Speaker 4>Monstrom came about?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure?

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<v Speaker 1>So, as I mentioned, I started working towards me that

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<v Speaker 1>public scholarship angle and finding ways to take this information

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<v Speaker 1>and what I'm passionate about, you know, not just inside

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<v Speaker 1>the classrooms where I was teaching, or you know, those

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<v Speaker 1>tiny little groups. So who's actually going to be at

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<v Speaker 1>like these academic conferences? So I believe I started first.

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<v Speaker 1>I actually wrote an article about the importance of zombie

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<v Speaker 1>films and how they've changed in the twenty first century

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<v Speaker 1>for Slate magazine, and then I actually ASU asked me

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<v Speaker 1>to go to Washington, d C. They had a new

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<v Speaker 1>campus opening, their satellite campus, and I gave sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a ted style talk about my idea for Monstrum, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>saying that I wanted to show these connections between different

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<v Speaker 1>cultures in different time periods and frankly between humans and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe ways that people didn't expect, using monsters as the

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<v Speaker 1>device to do so. And I was fortunate enough that

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<v Speaker 1>someone who was there for that talk said like, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a connection at PBS. I know that they're

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<v Speaker 1>looking for more humanities content. Can I put you in touch?

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<v Speaker 1>And bless the good folks at PBS Digital Studios. They

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<v Speaker 1>gave me a chance as at that point just a

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<v Speaker 1>PhD student who had a you know, a degree in

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<v Speaker 1>journalism and a degree in English literature already, but not

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<v Speaker 1>really a YouTube knowledge at all, to be quite frank

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<v Speaker 1>and I had fifteen minutes to cold pitch the show

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<v Speaker 1>to them, and I was so naive going into it.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't have like a pitch deck or anything. I just,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, really spoke from the passion that I have

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<v Speaker 1>and they gave me a chance, and one episode one

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<v Speaker 1>I actually had Facebook TV and they used to have

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of program became you know, a green light

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<v Speaker 1>for these series on Monstrum and Monstrum it's its own

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<v Speaker 1>channel in twenty nineteen and we are on our I

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<v Speaker 1>believe sixth season right now, which is absolutely insane to

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<v Speaker 1>think about. And I sometimes I do pinch myself and

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<v Speaker 1>be like, how do I have this job? This is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the most incredible gig. Again, it's not just

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<v Speaker 1>about learning. I love that I get to learn something

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<v Speaker 1>new about every single monster that I research, So even

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<v Speaker 1>the ones that I think I have a good grasp on,

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<v Speaker 1>I just find these new perspectives and these new you know,

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<v Speaker 1>connections between real world things, and that just keeps me

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<v Speaker 1>really invigorated with the work. But frankly, it's with people

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<v Speaker 1>like you that make this job so great too. As

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<v Speaker 1>I've found a YouTube as a whole, at least the

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<v Speaker 1>folks who you know, are fans of Monstrom to just

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<v Speaker 1>be a really open minded community who you know, share

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<v Speaker 1>their own stories and their own interpretations of these creatures.

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<v Speaker 1>And for me, the biggest success there are two things

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<v Speaker 1>I used to measure success of a Monstroom episode, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's not views. I mean, of course, you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>want to have good views, but for me, it's if

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<v Speaker 1>I feel confident that i have done comprehensive research and

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<v Speaker 1>that I've pulled from a variety of sources, particularly in

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<v Speaker 1>fact check things that maybe are misconceptions. And then if

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<v Speaker 1>I have someone comment like, oh, this, you know helped

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<v Speaker 1>my child, you know, feel more confident about X or oh,

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<v Speaker 1>my gosh, thank you for sharing this story. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>my aunt or my grandmother or my uncle, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sharing this with me when I was a kid, and

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<v Speaker 1>that to me is the most Again, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most rewarding things is, you know, not just about views,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's truly not why I do this. I joke

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<v Speaker 1>that being on camera and hosting is like my least

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<v Speaker 1>favorite part. It was just ironic because I now I've

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<v Speaker 1>hosted for so many other things, but it's really this

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<v Speaker 1>that horror community I've just found so like just open arms,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that that's something super powerful and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just happy to be a small voice that gets to

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<v Speaker 1>contribute to that.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh it's fantastic, And I want to add too, that

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<v Speaker 4>my nine year old son is a fan of the show.

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<v Speaker 3>He loves to watch it awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes my heart saying thank you.

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<v Speaker 4>Enjoys watching it with me, and he's a little skeptic

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<v Speaker 4>and asks lots of great questions and so it's just

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<v Speaker 4>a really good educational experience for him to watch it.

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<v Speaker 4>But we wanted to ask a little bit more about

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<v Speaker 4>the show how it's put together. Could you tell us

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<v Speaker 4>how monsterm is produced and put together?

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely? I have the most incredible production team Spots and

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<v Speaker 1>they're based out of Austin, Texas, and they're actually pretty

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<v Speaker 1>involved in the PBS Digital Studios Network as a whole.

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<v Speaker 1>Some other you know, big shows are also produced out

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<v Speaker 1>of their studio, including Be Smart and Two Cents in

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<v Speaker 1>addition to the stuff on Story. So it's just a

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<v Speaker 1>really cool group of people to work with and they're

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly talented and bless them that, you know, especially this

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<v Speaker 1>many seasons in and frankly from the beginning, they've allowed

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<v Speaker 1>me to have, I think a level of creative and

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<v Speaker 1>content control over the show that maybe other production companies

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have, and there were very collaborative. So the first

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<v Speaker 1>thing that usually happens is we This is embarrassingly this

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<v Speaker 1>is the first season we've actually planned every single episode

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<v Speaker 1>from the very beginning, because sometimes it's just like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I read this weird thing, like let's do an episode

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<v Speaker 1>about that. So we actually full schedule this season, but

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<v Speaker 1>we I come up with a list of things that

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<v Speaker 1>I try to balance. So what we try to do

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<v Speaker 1>is balance the maybe more obscure things that might be

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<v Speaker 1>digital folklore stuff that you know, general public isn't familiar with,

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<v Speaker 1>or it might be focusing on you know, non North

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<v Speaker 1>American monsters and really sort of opening up our audiences

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<v Speaker 1>to monsters across the globe, and then it's just stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that I think is cool, and we try to balance

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<v Speaker 1>doing you know, those three different types and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not trying to focus on you know, just bird type

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<v Speaker 1>monsters or just this one type of monster. So we

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<v Speaker 1>really do each season try to go for breath and depth,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say, and we you know, sort of spit

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<v Speaker 1>all those ideas with each other, and then I actually

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<v Speaker 1>have a I'm a little bit unusual in this regard

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<v Speaker 1>that I read every single YouTube comment on every single video,

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<v Speaker 1>those posts on the Story channel, and I know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other hosts and creators who think that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely off the wall, for I've gotten so used to

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<v Speaker 1>it to be quite frank, I surprises people that that

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<v Speaker 1>I think actually made me a better educator and digital

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<v Speaker 1>storyteller because I've developed more of a thick skin. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the reason I do read through the comments

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<v Speaker 1>is to find suggestions and new perspectives. So I keep

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<v Speaker 1>a running list a Google document of every single monster

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<v Speaker 1>that someone writes in that they want to see an

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<v Speaker 1>episode on, and I actually will tally it so based

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<v Speaker 1>on like this is the most requested to the least,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, pull from that when I'm looking for

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<v Speaker 1>ideas for the season. But once we decide sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the monsters that we want to look at, I go

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive into research mode. And that can be depending

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<v Speaker 1>on the sources that are accessible and sort of oftentimes

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<v Speaker 1>how long the monster has been around. That might be

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<v Speaker 1>a one week or two week research, you know sort

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<v Speaker 1>of project, or that might be a month or more,

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<v Speaker 1>just depending on the scope of the monster. And sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>the project is too big for the time. So for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>we were going to do something about thunderbirds this season,

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<v Speaker 1>but I was like, this is way bigger than I

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<v Speaker 1>thought that it was, and I'm going to need to

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<v Speaker 1>pull in a lot more experts. So with my other

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<v Speaker 1>you know, time constraints and stuff going on, I'm like, cool,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll save this for another season. Let's find something you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a little more niche, that you know, is more accessible

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<v Speaker 1>to keep that balance that we're looking for. Once I

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<v Speaker 1>do the research, I write the script, and then that

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<v Speaker 1>first version goes to the production team, so that is

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<v Speaker 1>my executive producer, system producer, and director, and they'll give

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<v Speaker 1>their comments. I'll do either one or two more revisions,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we do table read before we actually shoot,

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<v Speaker 1>so making sure that things are flowing. And that's really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting because there's stuff that we change. We change something

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<v Speaker 1>in every single table read, sometimes more than others. Then

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<v Speaker 1>we film the episodes. I've gotten much better doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>I will admit, you know, before it would take me

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<v Speaker 1>an hour or more for each episode just because I

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<v Speaker 1>was stumbling through things and whatnot. And now you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's way shorter than that. And then that footage goes

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<v Speaker 1>to production and David, my director, will make a collaborative

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<v Speaker 1>sort of document of you know, this sentence we want

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<v Speaker 1>to pull from this archive or this is the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of illustration we want from Sam, our amazing illustrator, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'll go in and make notes like, oh, let's make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that you know we're showing Tamot as just sort

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<v Speaker 1>of like a watery shape, not necessarily a dragon, So like,

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<v Speaker 1>I definitely do contribute to that as well. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we do the cut and review the cut, make changes.

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<v Speaker 1>The cut goes to PBS, they review it, it goes

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<v Speaker 1>through a fact checker, and then you know, we air

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<v Speaker 1>the episode. So it's a crazy how much how many

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<v Speaker 1>episodes I think we can do with sort of the

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<v Speaker 1>time constraints that we have. But again I'm this is

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<v Speaker 1>by no means just like a one woman project. I

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<v Speaker 1>really rely a lot on that incredible team and our

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<v Speaker 1>incredible illustrator, Sam Allen. So he's been you know, with

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<v Speaker 1>us from the beginning and definitely helps add to the

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<v Speaker 1>vibe of the show.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the illustrations are just fantastic. But thank you for

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<v Speaker 3>giving us that overview.

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<v Speaker 4>I wanted to ask a specific question about you going

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<v Speaker 4>into research mode. Do you ever do any hands on

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<v Speaker 4>investigations and research.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I have had the opportunity to do that a

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<v Speaker 1>few times. I'm hoping to do more of it. Honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest thing that's stopping me from doing it is

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<v Speaker 1>money and time, because it's a lot more of a

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<v Speaker 1>lift to you know, fly somewhere to go through a

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<v Speaker 1>libry archive. But again, I've found that rariants and scientists

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<v Speaker 1>are wonderful people. I recently reached out to the Smithsonian

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<v Speaker 1>to ask them about something and they actually, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>replied and gave me this, like really detailed So again,

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<v Speaker 1>monsters just bring people together and it gives me so

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<v Speaker 1>much joy. So I do love the chance to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to do hands on research. So for me, that

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<v Speaker 1>would be going to usually more of like a cryptid

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<v Speaker 1>or a local legend spot and really diving into the

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<v Speaker 1>archives and talking to people there who hopefully were involved

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<v Speaker 1>from the sort of origins of that. So we did

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<v Speaker 1>that with the Mothman episode way back when, which was

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<v Speaker 1>super cool, and then we did it for the three

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<v Speaker 1>part Zombie episode on YouTube and the Exhumed documentary that

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<v Speaker 1>aired nationally for PBS, and that was so important, not

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<v Speaker 1>only to have the chance to film in New Orleans

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<v Speaker 1>where a lot of the history of the Zombie is

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<v Speaker 1>rooted there and a lot of voays pun intended but

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<v Speaker 1>also I wanted to make sure that for such a

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<v Speaker 1>sensitive topic, because the zombie zo mbi is something that

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<v Speaker 1>is alive and well and people in vodoo and voodoo

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<v Speaker 1>practices do believe in that quote unquote monster. So I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to make sure I was pulling from priests and

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<v Speaker 1>priestesses and other academic experts to try to really give

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the full breath. So for me, has that

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<v Speaker 1>research isn't just archives, it's talking to other experts, and

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<v Speaker 1>that I would say, is I like to say that

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<v Speaker 1>for someone who's in the humanities or the social sciences.

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<v Speaker 1>My lab is the library, So I do a ton

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<v Speaker 1>of archival research in addition to you know, reading peer

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<v Speaker 1>review texts and sometimes Reddit threads or x chance stuff

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, just I really try to pull from

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<v Speaker 1>as many sources as possible, and where I think there's

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<v Speaker 1>a gap, that's where I bring in an expert. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's something we started doing a couple of seasons ago

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<v Speaker 1>that I think has been really exciting for the channel

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, get different people everyone from comic book

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<v Speaker 1>creators and folkloris, you know, scientists and scholars and the

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<v Speaker 1>humanities like just this people have just such a wealth

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<v Speaker 1>of knowledge out there, and you know, I'm grateful that

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<v Speaker 1>I have a platform that at this point is recognizable

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<v Speaker 1>enough that I get to talk to a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>really cool, really smart people.

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<v Speaker 2>This cross domain perspective on monsters, I think it's We've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing this show for more than fifteen years, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've come to the conclusion that you can't really understand

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<v Speaker 2>monsters from a single perspective, Like they mean so many

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<v Speaker 2>different things and there's so many different ways of examining them.

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<v Speaker 2>So I really wish there was more of like a

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<v Speaker 2>multidisciplinary monster conference. And it's really sort of my dream

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<v Speaker 2>for our show to somehow be involved in or put

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<v Speaker 2>on something like that at some point. But have you

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<v Speaker 2>have you thought about doing that, like maybe something would

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<v Speaker 2>that would produce a some sort of a volume or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, something something that would make it worthwhile for

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<v Speaker 2>the academic people to be involved.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I mean absolutely. I mean there is an incredible

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<v Speaker 1>actually academic journal called Ironically Monstrum, and there's also the

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<v Speaker 1>Folklore Journal out there that try to do a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of that, and there are a couple sort of

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<v Speaker 1>smaller niche I would say, academic conferences. But you're pointing

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<v Speaker 1>out I think again, something that's missing is where the

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<v Speaker 1>public and you know, the higher academic or the traditional

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<v Speaker 1>scholar get to merge yes a really popular way. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that's definitely an idea for all the

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<v Speaker 1>publishers out there, academic or otherwise, for like a special

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<v Speaker 1>issue or yeah, I mean, one of my ultimate goals

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<v Speaker 1>I would love to do would be to make an

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<v Speaker 1>academic journal or edited collection talking of course about the undead, probably,

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<v Speaker 1>but pulling from scholars from all across the world, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever sort of you know, area of expertise they have,

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<v Speaker 1>talk about their specific monsters from their cultural perspective. I

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<v Speaker 1>think could be really cool. So I think there's definitely

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<v Speaker 1>potential for it out there. And y'all know you've been

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<v Speaker 1>a dragon con and know some of these other cons

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<v Speaker 1>out there, there are these sort of pockets where I

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<v Speaker 1>think people are dying for that kind of thing to happen.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's speak it into existence. I think it could

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<v Speaker 1>be really cool, and I think it could be really popular.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll put you on the list of people I want

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<v Speaker 2>to keep in touch with on this because I really

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<v Speaker 2>believe in this strongly. I really want this to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Used to work very closely with an organization call now

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<v Speaker 1>Zombifide Media, which kind of did that thing with this

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<v Speaker 1>umbrella of zombies. It actually started as like a partnership

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<v Speaker 1>in like the psychology department and the humanities largely about

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<v Speaker 1>this you know, loose definition of the zombie and things

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<v Speaker 1>that take over our brains. And we've had a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of academic conferences for that, so you know, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's possible someday.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Emily, how does your classroom use of monsters vary

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<v Speaker 3>from the kind of more general audience that's targeted by monster?

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<v Speaker 1>Great question. So for me, since I teach undergraduate and

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<v Speaker 1>graduate courses, a lot of my undergraduate stuff does have

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<v Speaker 1>to do with first year composition, and while I'm very

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<v Speaker 1>transparent about myself and monsters might pop up in casual conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say that monsters in the classroom for me

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<v Speaker 1>largely order my literature courses, and those conversations are more

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<v Speaker 1>about close reading not necessarily the monster, but the text

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<v Speaker 1>in which the monster appears, and using that as the

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<v Speaker 1>entry point to talk about various issues. Right, So the

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<v Speaker 1>obvious ones would be something like doctor Jeckel and mister

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<v Speaker 1>Hyde or Frankenstein or Dracula. But again, I like to

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<v Speaker 1>in all my classes, I like to challenge people's misconceptions

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<v Speaker 1>and the very idea of like genre and definition. So

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<v Speaker 1>the question that always comes up in my classroom when

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about monsters is like, who is the true

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<v Speaker 1>monster of this story? Is it, you know, the creature

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<v Speaker 1>or the being or the entity that's perceived as being

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<v Speaker 1>deviant and there's you know, the scary narrative around that,

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<v Speaker 1>or is it more about the people who are pointing

421
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.440
<v Speaker 1>the finger at that thing? And those are always really

422
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:42.319
<v Speaker 1>fruitful conversations. So I would say that it's more nuanced

423
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.279
<v Speaker 1>when I use monsters in the classroom just because of

424
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, course goals and other things like that. But

425
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.799
<v Speaker 1>I do think it's an entry point for a lot

426
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.240
<v Speaker 1>of students. And whenever I teach composition during the fall,

427
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.599
<v Speaker 1>which I will do this coming semester because of October,

428
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.200
<v Speaker 1>of course, I do two sentence horror stories. It's like

429
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.240
<v Speaker 1>my you know, Halloween sort of prompt, and we really

430
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.839
<v Speaker 1>talk not just about monsters and things that scare us,

431
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.640
<v Speaker 1>but you know, how can you tell an entire story

432
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.720
<v Speaker 1>and you know, engage in those pathos and logos with

433
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:15.079
<v Speaker 1>only two sentences, How can you use punctuation and description

434
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.680
<v Speaker 1>and you know, active verbs to really get people to

435
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.720
<v Speaker 1>care about something when there's only two sentences long. So

436
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:24.799
<v Speaker 1>that's monster horror more broadly. But I think that's such

437
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.599
<v Speaker 1>a great exercise because it shows my students that it

438
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.720
<v Speaker 1>is possible to have incredible, you know, emotional impact in

439
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.440
<v Speaker 1>just two sentences. And I use that to underline, just

440
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.079
<v Speaker 1>look out what's happening, you know, with political advertisements or

441
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.640
<v Speaker 1>news or your Instagram or your TikTok feeds. Like, if

442
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.279
<v Speaker 1>we can do this in two sentences, think about you know,

443
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:44.359
<v Speaker 1>the possibilities if you're looking at a paragraph or an

444
00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:46.599
<v Speaker 1>entire movie or you know, an entire book.

445
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:51.200
<v Speaker 2>I love it a lot of fun I'm just thinking

446
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.640
<v Speaker 2>about slasher movies that have a three x structure.

447
00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.160
<v Speaker 1>It's funny that you use that reference. I can't say

448
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.920
<v Speaker 1>too much, but you're probably going to love this season's

449
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.119
<v Speaker 1>Monstrous special for October.

450
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Consider me teased, well, how has uh working with monsters

451
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.839
<v Speaker 2>academically changed your perspective on them versus just as a

452
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.160
<v Speaker 2>fan when you were growing up.

453
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:26.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that obviously academically because I do such comprehensive research.

454
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.240
<v Speaker 1>So I'm what some people call structuralists. So I don't

455
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.480
<v Speaker 1>believe that a text or story exists completely independently. Like

456
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.480
<v Speaker 1>for me, it's not just about the words, or it's

457
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:38.279
<v Speaker 1>not just about what the monster looks like. It's you know,

458
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 1>what are the social and cultural political against scientific like

459
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.119
<v Speaker 1>what is happening in the world around the creation of

460
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 1>that one creature? And I think that applying that perspective

461
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:54.240
<v Speaker 1>to monsters has completely changed for me, and that it's

462
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.640
<v Speaker 1>never just like, oh, this thing has fangs, It's like, Okay,

463
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:58.519
<v Speaker 1>why does it have fangs in this particular area of

464
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:01.920
<v Speaker 1>the world? What behaviors does it engage? Who reads, target victims?

465
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:03.960
<v Speaker 1>How can you defeat it? Who are the kinds of

466
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.880
<v Speaker 1>people who are telling stories about those monsters? Where do

467
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.240
<v Speaker 1>they first appear in print? Is it in a newspaper

468
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:11.359
<v Speaker 1>something that really happened, or is it in a fictional

469
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 1>story or somewhere in between? Is an oral tradition, and

470
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.480
<v Speaker 1>I think that approaching monsters with more of a critical

471
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.839
<v Speaker 1>academic lens, I have way more questions than answers now.

472
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.920
<v Speaker 1>But I also think that that is so exciting and

473
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:28.240
<v Speaker 1>I think again, just a really interesting way of looking

474
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.680
<v Speaker 1>at the world and looking about humanity. And we've done

475
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:33.599
<v Speaker 1>I've looked at so many moms. I think we're like

476
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.480
<v Speaker 1>done research on upwards of eighty monsters now at this point.

477
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:42.640
<v Speaker 1>And it's also really interesting to see what monsters share characteristics,

478
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.359
<v Speaker 1>or when things start changing, if that's like a historical

479
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.599
<v Speaker 1>time period, if that's connected to particular religion or to

480
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.720
<v Speaker 1>a global trend of some kind. I think those things

481
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:55.640
<v Speaker 1>or I would never have thought of just as a fan,

482
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.720
<v Speaker 1>but it makes wocking movies much more exciting or in

483
00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:02.839
<v Speaker 1>reading comics because I've heard this from other people, and

484
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure y'all are some of those people as well.

485
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.240
<v Speaker 1>I was just talking to a folklorist aiden for my

486
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:09.960
<v Speaker 1>lawa Choos episode, and we talked for like an hour

487
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.119
<v Speaker 1>before we actually filmed, and we were just discussing how

488
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:16.559
<v Speaker 1>as people who sort of know the historical background of

489
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.680
<v Speaker 1>some of these monsters, just seeing those little easter eggs

490
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:24.119
<v Speaker 1>in you know, fictional texts makes me so happy, not

491
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.400
<v Speaker 1>only because does it show the care that those creators

492
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:28.839
<v Speaker 1>went to, but I think that that's like again that

493
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.000
<v Speaker 1>moment of connection or understanding that people can share, and

494
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.319
<v Speaker 1>I think that's really powerful. So a good example of

495
00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:36.599
<v Speaker 1>that I can think of would be U the two

496
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.200
<v Speaker 1>La Courona movies. Are you all familiar with this?

497
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:40.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah?

498
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.759
<v Speaker 1>The one on Shutter that's like actually from you know,

499
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:49.039
<v Speaker 1>like Latina perspective, like talking about issues of colonialism and

500
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, socioeconomic stuff and what everything that was going

501
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.720
<v Speaker 1>on there. And then there's the whitewashed American version of

502
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.599
<v Speaker 1>law Youurona. And I think that that's such a good

503
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.960
<v Speaker 1>one was more successful than the other, let's say. And

504
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.920
<v Speaker 1>I think that part of making good horror content, at

505
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.440
<v Speaker 1>least for me, good monster content in this day and age,

506
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.799
<v Speaker 1>is allowing traditionally marginalized voices to speak and have a

507
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 1>place at the table. And if you yourself don't identify

508
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:16.799
<v Speaker 1>as part of that community of the origin of the monster,

509
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.279
<v Speaker 1>then you sure need to be brained in people who can,

510
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, add that perspective. And again, I think that's

511
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.279
<v Speaker 1>another really cool thing that monsters do is it gets

512
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.960
<v Speaker 1>people talking who might not have had conversations before. At

513
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 1>least that's happened with me and a lot of the

514
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 1>experts that I've talked to, And I think that's a

515
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 1>really valuable lesson as well.

516
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I think this is funny to me because it

517
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:39.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of started out as a joke, but it isn't

518
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:45.839
<v Speaker 2>really a joke. Which is, we started observing through several

519
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:50.839
<v Speaker 2>people's research that monsters, like the things that people actually

520
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:55.400
<v Speaker 2>report are often heavily influenced by the fictional content that

521
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.400
<v Speaker 2>they consume. But it's a bi directional thing, so that

522
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:05.359
<v Speaker 2>a popular movie or a popular pop culture theme can

523
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:09.000
<v Speaker 2>influence what people see as well, which I just that

524
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:14.880
<v Speaker 2>interplay between fiction, folklore and the like actual experiences of

525
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.039
<v Speaker 2>people is just fascinating to me. We we we called

526
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.839
<v Speaker 2>it uh or I coined it scripteds where the movie

527
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.599
<v Speaker 2>influences the cryptid. But I mean I see it in

528
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:28.680
<v Speaker 2>things like, speaking of indigenous content, the Wind to Go,

529
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.160
<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, a really complicated monster, and it's

530
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.480
<v Speaker 2>really important to have its original context, but on the

531
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.759
<v Speaker 2>Internet and deviant Art and all these places, it's become

532
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.279
<v Speaker 2>this sort of weird antlered monster that's, you know, that

533
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.279
<v Speaker 2>that has a sort of a physical identity that seems

534
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:55.759
<v Speaker 2>to be disconnected from its more important or historical cultural melieu.

535
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.079
<v Speaker 2>I guess I.

536
00:28:58.039 --> 00:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Mean we see that with you. We see that with

537
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 1>a lot of monsters that appear in Dungeons and Dragons.

538
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:03.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean we see yeah.

539
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:05.720
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

540
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 1>And I have a very I deal with this a lot,

541
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.359
<v Speaker 1>like back and forth about this because I think there's

542
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:13.119
<v Speaker 1>a way you can change a monster, even if you

543
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.480
<v Speaker 1>know from its origins. I think you can do it

544
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.720
<v Speaker 1>intentionally and unintentionally, and I think sometimes it can be

545
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.079
<v Speaker 1>successful and sometimes it's not. And I think the Window

546
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:22.759
<v Speaker 1>Go is a great example. I've done an episode on that,

547
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.720
<v Speaker 1>and I believe that the influence for the wind to

548
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Go appearing with those antlers, it comes from the two

549
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>thousand and one Horror movie that Larry Fessenden did, And

550
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:35.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that and I don't I've not talked to

551
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.480
<v Speaker 1>him about this ever. I have, you know, been like

552
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:38.960
<v Speaker 1>in the same peripher reason, but I've never had a

553
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.920
<v Speaker 1>chance to ask this. But he did until Dawn the

554
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Horror game like video game and spoiler but whatever, it's

555
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 1>an older game when he goes play a huge part

556
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:54.119
<v Speaker 1>of that story and it's dramatically different from how he

557
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.759
<v Speaker 1>portrayed them in the two thousand and one film. So

558
00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:59.759
<v Speaker 1>for me, I read that games sort of his necessarily

559
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:02.440
<v Speaker 1>a pl but like, oh, maybe there are some things

560
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.559
<v Speaker 1>I should have done differently, Like here's I'm going to

561
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 1>tell a different story because I have, you know, more

562
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.599
<v Speaker 1>information and probably more input. So yeah, I think that

563
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:16.799
<v Speaker 1>it's okay to change certain aspects of monsters in their portrayal,

564
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:20.000
<v Speaker 1>as long as you're at least have a knowledge of

565
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:22.279
<v Speaker 1>why you're doing it, and hopefully with respect of the

566
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.599
<v Speaker 1>cultures they come from. But you're absolutely correct that. I

567
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 1>think again, a lot of people who don't maybe engage

568
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 1>mus with monsters or think as much about horror critically

569
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.319
<v Speaker 1>think that these are just you know, grotesque things, or

570
00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:37.279
<v Speaker 1>like things meant just to scare us or what have you,

571
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>when as you pointed out, there are very real instances

572
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.599
<v Speaker 1>where there is that sort of trade where someone doesn't

573
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.160
<v Speaker 1>thing in fiction and that appears in like ENCRYPTID sighting,

574
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:48.880
<v Speaker 1>or that appears in the way a newspaper or a

575
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:52.920
<v Speaker 1>news channel handles the coverage of that sighting and back

576
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.359
<v Speaker 1>and forth. And I dealt with that recently with my

577
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.400
<v Speaker 1>project with Audible looking at serial killers, so it's called

578
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 1>serial Killers Real and Imagined, And the whole sort of

579
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:06.559
<v Speaker 1>underlying question I had with that exploration is why are

580
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.480
<v Speaker 1>we so fascinated by serial killers? And how do our

581
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.240
<v Speaker 1>expectations of what a quote unquote serial killer is play

582
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.119
<v Speaker 1>out in fiction and also in the real world in

583
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:20.519
<v Speaker 1>terms of news coverage of real serial murderers, but also

584
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 1>things like convictions and you know, how victims are treated.

585
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:26.960
<v Speaker 1>So that was I'd say that usually don't do like

586
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.119
<v Speaker 1>real monsters, not human monsters. So that was a different project,

587
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>but again same questions like y'all are pointing out. I

588
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:35.839
<v Speaker 1>think that it's naive to think that popular culture does

589
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:39.319
<v Speaker 1>not have real world applications outside of fiction.

590
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.200
<v Speaker 4>You know, we could just talk to you for hours.

591
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:44.920
<v Speaker 4>You know so much and this is all so interesting.

592
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:49.039
<v Speaker 4>You've kind of given us a glimpse already into what

593
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.240
<v Speaker 4>you're working on, But could you tell us a bit

594
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:52.839
<v Speaker 4>more about what you're working on at the moment your

595
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 4>future projects.

596
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, as I mentioned, we are actually doing something really

597
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:01.720
<v Speaker 1>cool for Monstrom for Halloween slash October this year. We're

598
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 1>going to be trying some more non traditional things. It's

599
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.680
<v Speaker 1>all kind of say with that more inlign to like

600
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.640
<v Speaker 1>what we did with the Universal Monsters, so trying to

601
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.000
<v Speaker 1>be very thematic to sort of the arrows we're talking about.

602
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.559
<v Speaker 1>So excited about doing that. I just yeah, came out

603
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.160
<v Speaker 1>with the audible series. I'll be at dragon Con and

604
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:21.599
<v Speaker 1>then personally, I'm revising an academic monograph right now about

605
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.480
<v Speaker 1>the Undead, and I'm also putting some feelers out there

606
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:29.480
<v Speaker 1>for two books, one that looks at the undead and

607
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:31.720
<v Speaker 1>these are more public facing, and then one that looks

608
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:37.519
<v Speaker 1>actually at cryptids and approaching those from an academic non

609
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.480
<v Speaker 1>fiction standpoint as sort of these you know, like tabletop

610
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 1>books are like cool modern like beastiaries, So hopefully you know,

611
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.480
<v Speaker 1>those will come to fruition. But I'm consulting on some

612
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.480
<v Speaker 1>projects as well, and you know, just honestly don't say

613
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.119
<v Speaker 1>no to a lot of things, which is for better

614
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:56.960
<v Speaker 1>or words. Yeah, hoping that I get to, you know,

615
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:58.279
<v Speaker 1>keep doing all this cool stuff.

616
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Very cool. Well, I know, we used to do a

617
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 2>very long form show, and I feel like we could

618
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 2>probably talk for another ninety minutes and not run out

619
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:09.240
<v Speaker 2>of things to say, but we are. We are on

620
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.319
<v Speaker 2>a tighter schedule now and I regret it. But I

621
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>do want to ask our signature questions since you've been

622
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.519
<v Speaker 2>so kind to join us, and I really am deeply

623
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.920
<v Speaker 2>interested in what you're going to answer here? What is

624
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>your favorite monster?

625
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.759
<v Speaker 1>This question? I will say that my answer often changes,

626
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.640
<v Speaker 1>and it's like accusing who my favorite child is, right like,

627
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:33.359
<v Speaker 1>I feel.

628
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:34.759
<v Speaker 2>The same way, feel the same way.

629
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.680
<v Speaker 1>I will say before I give my current answer that

630
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.680
<v Speaker 1>all undead beings, all reanimated corpses of any kind, will

631
00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 1>always have a special place in my heart because that's

632
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:46.759
<v Speaker 1>truly what got me into horror and got me on

633
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.759
<v Speaker 1>this incredible journey that I'm on. So there are sort

634
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.480
<v Speaker 1>of my top always. I really love the knuckle le V.

635
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.240
<v Speaker 1>I think it's just so gross and dramatic and interesting

636
00:33:57.319 --> 00:33:58.839
<v Speaker 1>that that's definitely one of my favorites.

637
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.920
<v Speaker 2>And then reasons for ours who may not know it,

638
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.759
<v Speaker 2>What is that? Yeah?

639
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:09.400
<v Speaker 1>So the knuckle of V comes from largely Scottish mythology,

640
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:14.159
<v Speaker 1>and it's essentially a quote unquote spirit in flesh who

641
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:16.199
<v Speaker 1>lives in the sea and no one knows exactly what

642
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:18.719
<v Speaker 1>its shape is when it's under the water, but on

643
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 1>land it takes the form of a skinless human torso

644
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:32.840
<v Speaker 1>riding a skinless horse and again super gross. But whenever

645
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.039
<v Speaker 1>I see something like that that seems so oddly specific

646
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:36.760
<v Speaker 1>and so different. I'm like, Okay, there's got to be.

647
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Something right.

648
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:44.119
<v Speaker 1>One for us, right, Yeah, well, I love Notcklovie, so

649
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:47.000
<v Speaker 1>watch that episode. But now, truly they're really interesting, so

650
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.519
<v Speaker 1>definitely go into traditions of water spirits. But interestingly, they're

651
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:55.239
<v Speaker 1>both truly demonic, and there's some evidence that this was

652
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.159
<v Speaker 1>a type of monster that helped explain things like sudden

653
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.039
<v Speaker 1>death and horror or you know, an explanation for when

654
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.639
<v Speaker 1>crops would die out because it had like poisonous breath.

655
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.199
<v Speaker 1>So I think that's also just a great example of

656
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:11.079
<v Speaker 1>how these seemingly ridiculous monsters have these you know, real

657
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.800
<v Speaker 1>world connections to a degree. But I would say probably

658
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:18.920
<v Speaker 1>another one of my favorites is the basilisk, Yeah, which

659
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.440
<v Speaker 1>is a voice. But I learned from that, which I

660
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of knew before research in that episode, that the

661
00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:28.840
<v Speaker 1>original basilisks were more like chickens than you know, the

662
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.239
<v Speaker 1>giant thing that we see in Harry Potter. So I

663
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.079
<v Speaker 1>think that's just super interesting.

664
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.800
<v Speaker 2>We covered the basilisk and that was the source of

665
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.639
<v Speaker 2>maybe the most exciting learning that I've had on this show,

666
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.679
<v Speaker 2>which is that no, here we go, which is that

667
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:49.000
<v Speaker 2>roosters don't have penises, and I I that is it

668
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.320
<v Speaker 2>just shook my world, Like the why do they call them?

669
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:54.039
<v Speaker 2>I still can't let go.

670
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.039
<v Speaker 1>You just think that it actually goes back to like crocodile.

671
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.679
<v Speaker 1>It's crazy. We could talk about this for ninety minutes.

672
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:05.159
<v Speaker 1>You're totally right, but yeah, those surprise moments when you're

673
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.760
<v Speaker 1>doing the research, and the basilisk in particular is like

674
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.800
<v Speaker 1>so rooted and understandings of science and zoology hundreds of

675
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:14.599
<v Speaker 1>years ago. I mean amazing, that's the kind of stuff

676
00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:16.519
<v Speaker 1>that they should be teaching in school to get kids interested.

677
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, exactly, exactly right. Well, and it seems like

678
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.519
<v Speaker 2>it's one of those monsters that just begs for sort

679
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.719
<v Speaker 2>of a euhemerism, like well, you know, you go into

680
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:28.599
<v Speaker 2>a cave and there's poison gas and it kills you.

681
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.239
<v Speaker 2>But you know, it's just as easy to say it

682
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:33.360
<v Speaker 2>was a basilisk, you know, because they didn't understand, you know,

683
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.639
<v Speaker 2>all all of the sort of things that can go

684
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.960
<v Speaker 2>wrong when you enter closed spaces.

685
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.440
<v Speaker 1>But it's just personally I find myself doing that. It

686
00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:43.400
<v Speaker 1>just I'm not to bore you all with the story,

687
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:46.079
<v Speaker 1>but long story short, there was some weird object on

688
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.079
<v Speaker 1>our neighbor's roof in like the middle of the night,

689
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.639
<v Speaker 1>and it looked very inhuman, and I jokingly turned my

690
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.719
<v Speaker 1>husband and I was like, oh, it's a werewolf, like

691
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:55.559
<v Speaker 1>and I know in my head that that's not what

692
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:58.320
<v Speaker 1>it was, but at that moment of shock and time,

693
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.159
<v Speaker 1>like that was the first thing that popped in in

694
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:02.320
<v Speaker 1>my head is how to explain that? And I'm an

695
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:05.079
<v Speaker 1>educated person in the twenty first century, so I mean

696
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.400
<v Speaker 1>there's lost history in general, and like that was an

697
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 1>AHA moment for me. I'm like, oh, so this is

698
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:12.320
<v Speaker 1>how that happens, got it?

699
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:13.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

700
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:16.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, Well, And you know, I think when the

701
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>big changes we've had is you know, when I think

702
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.159
<v Speaker 2>we started out, we were very focused on is it real?

703
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Is it not real? And branching out into these more

704
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:29.360
<v Speaker 2>interesting and deeper cultural questions. What's the significance?

705
00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, why does it.

706
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.119
<v Speaker 2>Emerge here and nowhere else? Or how is this like

707
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:35.639
<v Speaker 2>a real thing? Or how is this used explanatorily to

708
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 2>explain a really complicated idea. These are monsters are wonderful

709
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:43.159
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think we're ever going to get tired

710
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.480
<v Speaker 2>of them, and I hope you never do, an I never.

711
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.639
<v Speaker 1>Will, But I've approached with the exact same way. You

712
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.119
<v Speaker 1>sum that up perfectly. For me, it's never about is

713
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:52.320
<v Speaker 1>the monster real or not? Or trying to credit or

714
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 1>discredit people's experiences. It's for me, the question is why

715
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:58.480
<v Speaker 1>do people want to believe this is real?

716
00:37:58.840 --> 00:37:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Exactly?

717
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's far more interesting.

718
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, Emily, thank you so much for taking the time

719
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 2>to talk to us. I know it took a while

720
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 2>to pull this together, but.

721
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:08.599
<v Speaker 3>It great fun it was.

722
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.639
<v Speaker 2>We really appreciate you being with us today.

723
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Of course, thank you so much for having me. Hopefully

724
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:13.800
<v Speaker 1>I'll be back someday.

725
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and uh, I'll see you. Hopefully I'll get to

726
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 2>see a dragon con so yes.

727
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Please, and maybe on a ton of panels.

728
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:21.920
<v Speaker 2>So come say that awesome? So I bas up the

729
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 2>great book.

730
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Thank you indeed so much.

731
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:29.639
<v Speaker 2>Monster You've been listening to Monster Doc, the science show

732
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:34.880
<v Speaker 2>about monsters. I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stoltner. You

733
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.639
<v Speaker 2>just listened to an interview with doctor emily' Zarka, host

734
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:41.000
<v Speaker 2>of the PBS web series Monstrum. Check out our show

735
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.000
<v Speaker 2>notes for links to doctor Zarka's work. Karen and I

736
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:48.199
<v Speaker 2>think you'll really enjoy the content. And the visuals. Around

737
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the world, people report monsters, but are they real? Join

738
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.719
<v Speaker 2>the Detective of the impossible, Joe Nickel as he walks

739
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 2>you through investigations to reveal often surprising natural explanations behind

740
00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 2>some of the most famous cryptids in legendary animals ever reported.

741
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:08.079
<v Speaker 2>Using scientific skepticism, meticulous field work in historical deep dives,

742
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.679
<v Speaker 2>Joe Nichols seeks out hidden clues and real world candidates

743
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.679
<v Speaker 2>that sometimes reveal that even the most unlikely monster stories

744
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:20.079
<v Speaker 2>may have a basis in reality. The Science of Monsters

745
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.360
<v Speaker 2>is the first book from Monster House LLC, the publisher

746
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:26.960
<v Speaker 2>of science shows, Monster Talk and in research of The

747
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:29.800
<v Speaker 2>revised edition is now on sale and includes corrections and

748
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.480
<v Speaker 2>suggestions from you, our listeners and now readers. Sales of

749
00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 2>The Science of Monsters directly benefits Monster House and its

750
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.559
<v Speaker 2>podcasts thanks to the generosity of its author. Pick up

751
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>The Revised Science of Monsters today at Amazon dot com,

752
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:50.760
<v Speaker 2>available in paperback and kindle editions. Monster Talk theme music

753
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.400
<v Speaker 2>is by Pete Stealing Monkeys. If this had been an

754
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>actual emergency, you would have been instructed where to tune

755
00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:59.760
<v Speaker 2>in your area for news and official information. We'll see

756
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:02.280
<v Speaker 2>you next week when we'll hear a familiar voice say

757
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:06.639
<v Speaker 2>that's right. It's the return of Ken in Vader.

758
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.079
<v Speaker 1>This has been a Monster House presentation.