Speaker 1: You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast.
Speaker 2: Monster House presents Monster Talks, a proud member of the
Speaker 2: Airwave Media podcast network, home of such shows as Subtext,
Speaker 2: The Projection Booth and the Daily Meditation Podcast. If you'd
Speaker 2: like to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.
Speaker 2: A giant, very creature.
Speaker 3: Part eight part Matt in Luckness, a twenty four mile
Speaker 3: long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland.
Speaker 1: It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monster Talk.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Speaker 2: Blake Smith.
Speaker 3: And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 2: Hey, they're Monster Talkers. Today we got a real treat
Speaker 2: for you. That was a long time in the making.
Speaker 2: I don't recall when the first listener email suggested I
Speaker 2: check out the PBS web series monstrum Or, who first
Speaker 2: asked if we could get host Emily Zarka onto Monster
Speaker 2: Talk as a guest. But there have been a lot
Speaker 2: of messages like that, and I've finally managed to talk
Speaker 2: to her last September at Dragon Con and introduce myself.
Speaker 2: I'm excited to say that despite our respectively busy schedules,
Speaker 2: we managed to get this chat arranged and I think
Speaker 2: we'll probably talk again in the future because the interests
Speaker 2: of hers in ours has so much overlap, and both
Speaker 2: of our shows express a deep passion for the history
Speaker 2: and culture of monsters around the world. You can find
Speaker 2: links to Monstrum in our show notes, or you can
Speaker 2: just go over to YouTube and search for the word monstrum.
Speaker 2: Monstrum and be sure to check out other interesting shows
Speaker 2: from PBS's channels, Storied, which produces high quality content on monsters, language, folklore,
Speaker 2: and other aspects of the humanities. One little bit of
Speaker 2: bookkeeping I need to tell you about is that we
Speaker 2: are going to be changing our advertising partnership in platforms soon.
Speaker 2: We appreciate the opportunity that Airwave has given us and
Speaker 2: we wish them success with their continuing efforts to generate
Speaker 2: revenue in the science communication space. If all goes well,
Speaker 2: you shouldn't need to make any changes on your end,
Speaker 2: but do keep an eye on your feed as we
Speaker 2: roll into August to make sure that you're getting all
Speaker 2: your Monster Talk content as expected. Remember if you ever
Speaker 2: have trouble getting episodes or you're not sure. If your
Speaker 2: feed has the latest, you can always go over to
Speaker 2: Monster Talk and find our entire back catalog. I'll continue
Speaker 2: to post reminders of this until we've made our transition,
Speaker 2: and thanks again to Airway for working with us through
Speaker 2: this change. Now let's get to the Monstertle. In this episode,
Speaker 2: we're going to be talking with doctor Emily Zarka. She
Speaker 2: is on the faculty of the English Department at Arizona
Speaker 2: State University, teaching undergraduate and graduate classes and composition in literature,
Speaker 2: and serves as ASU's official Monster Expert. Listeners will probably
Speaker 2: know her as the creator, writer, and host of the
Speaker 2: popular YouTube series Monstroum, which is the flagship show on
Speaker 2: PBS's storied Humanity channel, and we're really excited to talk
Speaker 2: to her and so welcome to Yeah, welcome to the show,
Speaker 2: Doctor Zarka.
Speaker 1: Hello, Thank you so much. It's great to talk to
Speaker 1: you all.
Speaker 2: Well. I know from having heard you speak at Dragon
Speaker 2: Con that you're even deeper into this stuff than I
Speaker 2: think having a YouTube channel would suggest, So I was.
Speaker 2: I was really excited to hear you sort of go
Speaker 2: deep on that panel that I heard, and I thought
Speaker 2: maybe we could get you to open up a little
Speaker 2: bit about that with us today in our audience. I
Speaker 2: think our audience is well informed on monsters, a lot
Speaker 2: deeper than maybe your average person. But before we do
Speaker 2: all that, could you tell us how you got into
Speaker 2: the academic side of using monsters in your teaching, because wow,
Speaker 2: I love it when people manage to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, I do too. I would say that
Speaker 1: I use my research with monsters and more of the
Speaker 1: research side than the teaching side. Unfortunately, I'm fingers crossed
Speaker 1: for you know, a large lecture class on just monsters.
Speaker 1: But I live and breathe this stuff, I truly do.
Speaker 1: My interest in monsters and horror in general started when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, when I was very young, and
Speaker 1: I always just had this true affinity for the genre,
Speaker 1: and back then I didn't really understand why. But during
Speaker 1: my career at Versus the Colorado I had some absolutely
Speaker 1: wonderful professors who sort of solidified what I'd kind of
Speaker 1: known deep down, that horror does have meaning, that monsters
Speaker 1: serve a larger purpose, and that you know, sparked an
Speaker 1: honors thesis that became the you know, part of the
Speaker 1: cover letter for my PhD applications. And then to my
Speaker 1: actual dissertation, which looks at representations of the undead in
Speaker 1: the British Gothic Romantic period, and doing that specific research
Speaker 1: on the undead, I just way I treat research in general,
Speaker 1: I cast a really wide net and I find myself
Speaker 1: going into these I call them like research holes or
Speaker 1: research spirals where I'm you know, reading for two hours
Speaker 1: about what mummy flesh might have tasted like, and that's
Speaker 1: not really relevant, you know, like the chapter that I'm writing,
Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated by it. And through the work I
Speaker 1: was doing in grad school looking at folklore and literature
Speaker 1: and the science and history and politics and you know,
Speaker 1: social factors that really do contribute to our construction of
Speaker 1: these monstrous narratives, I realized that I've felt that that
Speaker 1: sort of knowledge and information shouldn't be just behind the
Speaker 1: doors of higher academia. And I became really passionate about
Speaker 1: being a public scholar, so taking my expertise and making
Speaker 1: it more accessible for as many people as possible, which
Speaker 1: led me to the base concept from Monstrom and then
Speaker 1: to working with PBS. And since then I've had the
Speaker 1: absolute joy of doing things, like you said, like dragon
Speaker 1: con and you know, writing blurbs for anthologies and book
Speaker 1: I just I've bet at San Diego Comic Con. I've
Speaker 1: just had this truly crazy journey of being able to
Speaker 1: research what I love and talk about what I love,
Speaker 1: and hopefully make connections with other like minded individuals like yourselves.
Speaker 1: You know that these stories that some people dismiss as
Speaker 1: not being significant actually have real world importance and significance
Speaker 1: even just outside of storytelling.
Speaker 3: Fantastic, Emily, you difinitely a kind of person.
Speaker 4: We're used to going down rabbit holes and doing deep
Speaker 4: dives into all of these topics.
Speaker 3: So I think we're kind of jealous, really a little bit, yeah,
Speaker 3: of your monsterm geek.
Speaker 4: I mean, that is just seems like a dream job.
Speaker 4: So could you tell us a little bit about how
Speaker 4: Monstrom came about?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: So, as I mentioned, I started working towards me that
Speaker 1: public scholarship angle and finding ways to take this information
Speaker 1: and what I'm passionate about, you know, not just inside
Speaker 1: the classrooms where I was teaching, or you know, those
Speaker 1: tiny little groups. So who's actually going to be at
Speaker 1: like these academic conferences? So I believe I started first.
Speaker 1: I actually wrote an article about the importance of zombie
Speaker 1: films and how they've changed in the twenty first century
Speaker 1: for Slate magazine, and then I actually ASU asked me
Speaker 1: to go to Washington, d C. They had a new
Speaker 1: campus opening, their satellite campus, and I gave sort of
Speaker 1: a ted style talk about my idea for Monstrum, you know,
Speaker 1: saying that I wanted to show these connections between different
Speaker 1: cultures in different time periods and frankly between humans and
Speaker 1: maybe ways that people didn't expect, using monsters as the
Speaker 1: device to do so. And I was fortunate enough that
Speaker 1: someone who was there for that talk said like, Hey,
Speaker 1: I have a connection at PBS. I know that they're
Speaker 1: looking for more humanities content. Can I put you in touch?
Speaker 1: And bless the good folks at PBS Digital Studios. They
Speaker 1: gave me a chance as at that point just a
Speaker 1: PhD student who had a you know, a degree in
Speaker 1: journalism and a degree in English literature already, but not
Speaker 1: really a YouTube knowledge at all, to be quite frank
Speaker 1: and I had fifteen minutes to cold pitch the show
Speaker 1: to them, and I was so naive going into it.
Speaker 1: I didn't have like a pitch deck or anything. I just,
Speaker 1: you know, really spoke from the passion that I have
Speaker 1: and they gave me a chance, and one episode one
Speaker 1: I actually had Facebook TV and they used to have
Speaker 1: that sort of program became you know, a green light
Speaker 1: for these series on Monstrum and Monstrum it's its own
Speaker 1: channel in twenty nineteen and we are on our I
Speaker 1: believe sixth season right now, which is absolutely insane to
Speaker 1: think about. And I sometimes I do pinch myself and
Speaker 1: be like, how do I have this job? This is,
Speaker 1: you know, the most incredible gig. Again, it's not just
Speaker 1: about learning. I love that I get to learn something
Speaker 1: new about every single monster that I research, So even
Speaker 1: the ones that I think I have a good grasp on,
Speaker 1: I just find these new perspectives and these new you know,
Speaker 1: connections between real world things, and that just keeps me
Speaker 1: really invigorated with the work. But frankly, it's with people
Speaker 1: like you that make this job so great too. As
Speaker 1: I've found a YouTube as a whole, at least the
Speaker 1: folks who you know, are fans of Monstrom to just
Speaker 1: be a really open minded community who you know, share
Speaker 1: their own stories and their own interpretations of these creatures.
Speaker 1: And for me, the biggest success there are two things
Speaker 1: I used to measure success of a Monstroom episode, and
Speaker 1: it's not views. I mean, of course, you know, you
Speaker 1: want to have good views, but for me, it's if
Speaker 1: I feel confident that i have done comprehensive research and
Speaker 1: that I've pulled from a variety of sources, particularly in
Speaker 1: fact check things that maybe are misconceptions. And then if
Speaker 1: I have someone comment like, oh, this, you know helped
Speaker 1: my child, you know, feel more confident about X or oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, thank you for sharing this story. I remember
Speaker 1: my aunt or my grandmother or my uncle, you know,
Speaker 1: sharing this with me when I was a kid, and
Speaker 1: that to me is the most Again, one of the
Speaker 1: most rewarding things is, you know, not just about views,
Speaker 1: because that's truly not why I do this. I joke
Speaker 1: that being on camera and hosting is like my least
Speaker 1: favorite part. It was just ironic because I now I've
Speaker 1: hosted for so many other things, but it's really this
Speaker 1: that horror community I've just found so like just open arms,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's something super powerful and I'm
Speaker 1: just happy to be a small voice that gets to
Speaker 1: contribute to that.
Speaker 4: Oh it's fantastic, And I want to add too, that
Speaker 4: my nine year old son is a fan of the show.
Speaker 3: He loves to watch it awesome.
Speaker 1: That makes my heart saying thank you.
Speaker 4: Enjoys watching it with me, and he's a little skeptic
Speaker 4: and asks lots of great questions and so it's just
Speaker 4: a really good educational experience for him to watch it.
Speaker 4: But we wanted to ask a little bit more about
Speaker 4: the show how it's put together. Could you tell us
Speaker 4: how monsterm is produced and put together?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I have the most incredible production team Spots and
Speaker 1: they're based out of Austin, Texas, and they're actually pretty
Speaker 1: involved in the PBS Digital Studios Network as a whole.
Speaker 1: Some other you know, big shows are also produced out
Speaker 1: of their studio, including Be Smart and Two Cents in
Speaker 1: addition to the stuff on Story. So it's just a
Speaker 1: really cool group of people to work with and they're
Speaker 1: incredibly talented and bless them that, you know, especially this
Speaker 1: many seasons in and frankly from the beginning, they've allowed
Speaker 1: me to have, I think a level of creative and
Speaker 1: content control over the show that maybe other production companies
Speaker 1: wouldn't have, and there were very collaborative. So the first
Speaker 1: thing that usually happens is we This is embarrassingly this
Speaker 1: is the first season we've actually planned every single episode
Speaker 1: from the very beginning, because sometimes it's just like, hey,
Speaker 1: I read this weird thing, like let's do an episode
Speaker 1: about that. So we actually full schedule this season, but
Speaker 1: we I come up with a list of things that
Speaker 1: I try to balance. So what we try to do
Speaker 1: is balance the maybe more obscure things that might be
Speaker 1: digital folklore stuff that you know, general public isn't familiar with,
Speaker 1: or it might be focusing on you know, non North
Speaker 1: American monsters and really sort of opening up our audiences
Speaker 1: to monsters across the globe, and then it's just stuff
Speaker 1: that I think is cool, and we try to balance
Speaker 1: doing you know, those three different types and you know,
Speaker 1: not trying to focus on you know, just bird type
Speaker 1: monsters or just this one type of monster. So we
Speaker 1: really do each season try to go for breath and depth,
Speaker 1: I would say, and we you know, sort of spit
Speaker 1: all those ideas with each other, and then I actually
Speaker 1: have a I'm a little bit unusual in this regard
Speaker 1: that I read every single YouTube comment on every single video,
Speaker 1: those posts on the Story channel, and I know a
Speaker 1: lot of other hosts and creators who think that I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely off the wall, for I've gotten so used to
Speaker 1: it to be quite frank, I surprises people that that
Speaker 1: I think actually made me a better educator and digital
Speaker 1: storyteller because I've developed more of a thick skin. And
Speaker 1: you know, the reason I do read through the comments
Speaker 1: is to find suggestions and new perspectives. So I keep
Speaker 1: a running list a Google document of every single monster
Speaker 1: that someone writes in that they want to see an
Speaker 1: episode on, and I actually will tally it so based
Speaker 1: on like this is the most requested to the least,
Speaker 1: and you know, pull from that when I'm looking for
Speaker 1: ideas for the season. But once we decide sort of
Speaker 1: the monsters that we want to look at, I go
Speaker 1: deep dive into research mode. And that can be depending
Speaker 1: on the sources that are accessible and sort of oftentimes
Speaker 1: how long the monster has been around. That might be
Speaker 1: a one week or two week research, you know sort
Speaker 1: of project, or that might be a month or more,
Speaker 1: just depending on the scope of the monster. And sometimes
Speaker 1: the project is too big for the time. So for instance,
Speaker 1: we were going to do something about thunderbirds this season,
Speaker 1: but I was like, this is way bigger than I
Speaker 1: thought that it was, and I'm going to need to
Speaker 1: pull in a lot more experts. So with my other
Speaker 1: you know, time constraints and stuff going on, I'm like, cool,
Speaker 1: we'll save this for another season. Let's find something you know,
Speaker 1: a little more niche, that you know, is more accessible
Speaker 1: to keep that balance that we're looking for. Once I
Speaker 1: do the research, I write the script, and then that
Speaker 1: first version goes to the production team, so that is
Speaker 1: my executive producer, system producer, and director, and they'll give
Speaker 1: their comments. I'll do either one or two more revisions,
Speaker 1: and then we do table read before we actually shoot,
Speaker 1: so making sure that things are flowing. And that's really
Speaker 1: interesting because there's stuff that we change. We change something
Speaker 1: in every single table read, sometimes more than others. Then
Speaker 1: we film the episodes. I've gotten much better doing that.
Speaker 1: I will admit, you know, before it would take me
Speaker 1: an hour or more for each episode just because I
Speaker 1: was stumbling through things and whatnot. And now you know,
Speaker 1: it's way shorter than that. And then that footage goes
Speaker 1: to production and David, my director, will make a collaborative
Speaker 1: sort of document of you know, this sentence we want
Speaker 1: to pull from this archive or this is the kind
Speaker 1: of illustration we want from Sam, our amazing illustrator, and
Speaker 1: I'll go in and make notes like, oh, let's make
Speaker 1: sure that you know we're showing Tamot as just sort
Speaker 1: of like a watery shape, not necessarily a dragon, So like,
Speaker 1: I definitely do contribute to that as well. And yeah,
Speaker 1: we do the cut and review the cut, make changes.
Speaker 1: The cut goes to PBS, they review it, it goes
Speaker 1: through a fact checker, and then you know, we air
Speaker 1: the episode. So it's a crazy how much how many
Speaker 1: episodes I think we can do with sort of the
Speaker 1: time constraints that we have. But again I'm this is
Speaker 1: by no means just like a one woman project. I
Speaker 1: really rely a lot on that incredible team and our
Speaker 1: incredible illustrator, Sam Allen. So he's been you know, with
Speaker 1: us from the beginning and definitely helps add to the
Speaker 1: vibe of the show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the illustrations are just fantastic. But thank you for
Speaker 3: giving us that overview.
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask a specific question about you going
Speaker 4: into research mode. Do you ever do any hands on
Speaker 4: investigations and research.
Speaker 1: Yes, I have had the opportunity to do that a
Speaker 1: few times. I'm hoping to do more of it. Honestly,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that's stopping me from doing it is
Speaker 1: money and time, because it's a lot more of a
Speaker 1: lift to you know, fly somewhere to go through a
Speaker 1: libry archive. But again, I've found that rariants and scientists
Speaker 1: are wonderful people. I recently reached out to the Smithsonian
Speaker 1: to ask them about something and they actually, you know,
Speaker 1: replied and gave me this, like really detailed So again,
Speaker 1: monsters just bring people together and it gives me so
Speaker 1: much joy. So I do love the chance to be
Speaker 1: able to do hands on research. So for me, that
Speaker 1: would be going to usually more of like a cryptid
Speaker 1: or a local legend spot and really diving into the
Speaker 1: archives and talking to people there who hopefully were involved
Speaker 1: from the sort of origins of that. So we did
Speaker 1: that with the Mothman episode way back when, which was
Speaker 1: super cool, and then we did it for the three
Speaker 1: part Zombie episode on YouTube and the Exhumed documentary that
Speaker 1: aired nationally for PBS, and that was so important, not
Speaker 1: only to have the chance to film in New Orleans
Speaker 1: where a lot of the history of the Zombie is
Speaker 1: rooted there and a lot of voays pun intended but
Speaker 1: also I wanted to make sure that for such a
Speaker 1: sensitive topic, because the zombie zo mbi is something that
Speaker 1: is alive and well and people in vodoo and voodoo
Speaker 1: practices do believe in that quote unquote monster. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure I was pulling from priests and
Speaker 1: priestesses and other academic experts to try to really give
Speaker 1: you know, the full breath. So for me, has that
Speaker 1: research isn't just archives, it's talking to other experts, and
Speaker 1: that I would say, is I like to say that
Speaker 1: for someone who's in the humanities or the social sciences.
Speaker 1: My lab is the library, So I do a ton
Speaker 1: of archival research in addition to you know, reading peer
Speaker 1: review texts and sometimes Reddit threads or x chance stuff
Speaker 1: and you know, just I really try to pull from
Speaker 1: as many sources as possible, and where I think there's
Speaker 1: a gap, that's where I bring in an expert. And
Speaker 1: that's something we started doing a couple of seasons ago
Speaker 1: that I think has been really exciting for the channel
Speaker 1: to you know, get different people everyone from comic book
Speaker 1: creators and folkloris, you know, scientists and scholars and the
Speaker 1: humanities like just this people have just such a wealth
Speaker 1: of knowledge out there, and you know, I'm grateful that
Speaker 1: I have a platform that at this point is recognizable
Speaker 1: enough that I get to talk to a lot of
Speaker 1: really cool, really smart people.
Speaker 2: This cross domain perspective on monsters, I think it's We've
Speaker 2: been doing this show for more than fifteen years, and
Speaker 2: I've come to the conclusion that you can't really understand
Speaker 2: monsters from a single perspective, Like they mean so many
Speaker 2: different things and there's so many different ways of examining them.
Speaker 2: So I really wish there was more of like a
Speaker 2: multidisciplinary monster conference. And it's really sort of my dream
Speaker 2: for our show to somehow be involved in or put
Speaker 2: on something like that at some point. But have you
Speaker 2: have you thought about doing that, like maybe something would
Speaker 2: that would produce a some sort of a volume or
Speaker 2: you know, something something that would make it worthwhile for
Speaker 2: the academic people to be involved.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean absolutely. I mean there is an incredible
Speaker 1: actually academic journal called Ironically Monstrum, and there's also the
Speaker 1: Folklore Journal out there that try to do a little
Speaker 1: bit of that, and there are a couple sort of
Speaker 1: smaller niche I would say, academic conferences. But you're pointing
Speaker 1: out I think again, something that's missing is where the
Speaker 1: public and you know, the higher academic or the traditional
Speaker 1: scholar get to merge yes a really popular way. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's definitely an idea for all the
Speaker 1: publishers out there, academic or otherwise, for like a special
Speaker 1: issue or yeah, I mean, one of my ultimate goals
Speaker 1: I would love to do would be to make an
Speaker 1: academic journal or edited collection talking of course about the undead, probably,
Speaker 1: but pulling from scholars from all across the world, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever sort of you know, area of expertise they have,
Speaker 1: talk about their specific monsters from their cultural perspective. I
Speaker 1: think could be really cool. So I think there's definitely
Speaker 1: potential for it out there. And y'all know you've been
Speaker 1: a dragon con and know some of these other cons
Speaker 1: out there, there are these sort of pockets where I
Speaker 1: think people are dying for that kind of thing to happen.
Speaker 1: So let's speak it into existence. I think it could
Speaker 1: be really cool, and I think it could be really popular.
Speaker 2: We'll put you on the list of people I want
Speaker 2: to keep in touch with on this because I really
Speaker 2: believe in this strongly. I really want this to happen.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Used to work very closely with an organization call now
Speaker 1: Zombifide Media, which kind of did that thing with this
Speaker 1: umbrella of zombies. It actually started as like a partnership
Speaker 1: in like the psychology department and the humanities largely about
Speaker 1: this you know, loose definition of the zombie and things
Speaker 1: that take over our brains. And we've had a couple
Speaker 1: of academic conferences for that, so you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's possible someday.
Speaker 3: So, Emily, how does your classroom use of monsters vary
Speaker 3: from the kind of more general audience that's targeted by monster?
Speaker 1: Great question. So for me, since I teach undergraduate and
Speaker 1: graduate courses, a lot of my undergraduate stuff does have
Speaker 1: to do with first year composition, and while I'm very
Speaker 1: transparent about myself and monsters might pop up in casual conversation,
Speaker 1: I would say that monsters in the classroom for me
Speaker 1: largely order my literature courses, and those conversations are more
Speaker 1: about close reading not necessarily the monster, but the text
Speaker 1: in which the monster appears, and using that as the
Speaker 1: entry point to talk about various issues. Right, So the
Speaker 1: obvious ones would be something like doctor Jeckel and mister
Speaker 1: Hyde or Frankenstein or Dracula. But again, I like to
Speaker 1: in all my classes, I like to challenge people's misconceptions
Speaker 1: and the very idea of like genre and definition. So
Speaker 1: the question that always comes up in my classroom when
Speaker 1: we talk about monsters is like, who is the true
Speaker 1: monster of this story? Is it, you know, the creature
Speaker 1: or the being or the entity that's perceived as being
Speaker 1: deviant and there's you know, the scary narrative around that,
Speaker 1: or is it more about the people who are pointing
Speaker 1: the finger at that thing? And those are always really
Speaker 1: fruitful conversations. So I would say that it's more nuanced
Speaker 1: when I use monsters in the classroom just because of
Speaker 1: you know, course goals and other things like that. But
Speaker 1: I do think it's an entry point for a lot
Speaker 1: of students. And whenever I teach composition during the fall,
Speaker 1: which I will do this coming semester because of October,
Speaker 1: of course, I do two sentence horror stories. It's like
Speaker 1: my you know, Halloween sort of prompt, and we really
Speaker 1: talk not just about monsters and things that scare us,
Speaker 1: but you know, how can you tell an entire story
Speaker 1: and you know, engage in those pathos and logos with
Speaker 1: only two sentences, How can you use punctuation and description
Speaker 1: and you know, active verbs to really get people to
Speaker 1: care about something when there's only two sentences long. So
Speaker 1: that's monster horror more broadly. But I think that's such
Speaker 1: a great exercise because it shows my students that it
Speaker 1: is possible to have incredible, you know, emotional impact in
Speaker 1: just two sentences. And I use that to underline, just
Speaker 1: look out what's happening, you know, with political advertisements or
Speaker 1: news or your Instagram or your TikTok feeds. Like, if
Speaker 1: we can do this in two sentences, think about you know,
Speaker 1: the possibilities if you're looking at a paragraph or an
Speaker 1: entire movie or you know, an entire book.
Speaker 2: I love it a lot of fun I'm just thinking
Speaker 2: about slasher movies that have a three x structure.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you use that reference. I can't say
Speaker 1: too much, but you're probably going to love this season's
Speaker 1: Monstrous special for October.
Speaker 2: Consider me teased, well, how has uh working with monsters
Speaker 2: academically changed your perspective on them versus just as a
Speaker 2: fan when you were growing up.
Speaker 1: I think that obviously academically because I do such comprehensive research.
Speaker 1: So I'm what some people call structuralists. So I don't
Speaker 1: believe that a text or story exists completely independently. Like
Speaker 1: for me, it's not just about the words, or it's
Speaker 1: not just about what the monster looks like. It's you know,
Speaker 1: what are the social and cultural political against scientific like
Speaker 1: what is happening in the world around the creation of
Speaker 1: that one creature? And I think that applying that perspective
Speaker 1: to monsters has completely changed for me, and that it's
Speaker 1: never just like, oh, this thing has fangs, It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: why does it have fangs in this particular area of
Speaker 1: the world? What behaviors does it engage? Who reads, target victims?
Speaker 1: How can you defeat it? Who are the kinds of
Speaker 1: people who are telling stories about those monsters? Where do
Speaker 1: they first appear in print? Is it in a newspaper
Speaker 1: something that really happened, or is it in a fictional
Speaker 1: story or somewhere in between? Is an oral tradition, and
Speaker 1: I think that approaching monsters with more of a critical
Speaker 1: academic lens, I have way more questions than answers now.
Speaker 1: But I also think that that is so exciting and
Speaker 1: I think again, just a really interesting way of looking
Speaker 1: at the world and looking about humanity. And we've done
Speaker 1: I've looked at so many moms. I think we're like
Speaker 1: done research on upwards of eighty monsters now at this point.
Speaker 1: And it's also really interesting to see what monsters share characteristics,
Speaker 1: or when things start changing, if that's like a historical
Speaker 1: time period, if that's connected to particular religion or to
Speaker 1: a global trend of some kind. I think those things
Speaker 1: or I would never have thought of just as a fan,
Speaker 1: but it makes wocking movies much more exciting or in
Speaker 1: reading comics because I've heard this from other people, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure y'all are some of those people as well.
Speaker 1: I was just talking to a folklorist aiden for my
Speaker 1: lawa Choos episode, and we talked for like an hour
Speaker 1: before we actually filmed, and we were just discussing how
Speaker 1: as people who sort of know the historical background of
Speaker 1: some of these monsters, just seeing those little easter eggs
Speaker 1: in you know, fictional texts makes me so happy, not
Speaker 1: only because does it show the care that those creators
Speaker 1: went to, but I think that that's like again that
Speaker 1: moment of connection or understanding that people can share, and
Speaker 1: I think that's really powerful. So a good example of
Speaker 1: that I can think of would be U the two
Speaker 1: La Courona movies. Are you all familiar with this?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1: The one on Shutter that's like actually from you know,
Speaker 1: like Latina perspective, like talking about issues of colonialism and
Speaker 1: you know, socioeconomic stuff and what everything that was going
Speaker 1: on there. And then there's the whitewashed American version of
Speaker 1: law Youurona. And I think that that's such a good
Speaker 1: one was more successful than the other, let's say. And
Speaker 1: I think that part of making good horror content, at
Speaker 1: least for me, good monster content in this day and age,
Speaker 1: is allowing traditionally marginalized voices to speak and have a
Speaker 1: place at the table. And if you yourself don't identify
Speaker 1: as part of that community of the origin of the monster,
Speaker 1: then you sure need to be brained in people who can,
Speaker 1: you know, add that perspective. And again, I think that's
Speaker 1: another really cool thing that monsters do is it gets
Speaker 1: people talking who might not have had conversations before. At
Speaker 1: least that's happened with me and a lot of the
Speaker 1: experts that I've talked to, And I think that's a
Speaker 1: really valuable lesson as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think this is funny to me because it
Speaker 2: kind of started out as a joke, but it isn't
Speaker 2: really a joke. Which is, we started observing through several
Speaker 2: people's research that monsters, like the things that people actually
Speaker 2: report are often heavily influenced by the fictional content that
Speaker 2: they consume. But it's a bi directional thing, so that
Speaker 2: a popular movie or a popular pop culture theme can
Speaker 2: influence what people see as well, which I just that
Speaker 2: interplay between fiction, folklore and the like actual experiences of
Speaker 2: people is just fascinating to me. We we we called
Speaker 2: it uh or I coined it scripteds where the movie
Speaker 2: influences the cryptid. But I mean I see it in
Speaker 2: things like, speaking of indigenous content, the Wind to Go,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, a really complicated monster, and it's
Speaker 2: really important to have its original context, but on the
Speaker 2: Internet and deviant Art and all these places, it's become
Speaker 2: this sort of weird antlered monster that's, you know, that
Speaker 2: that has a sort of a physical identity that seems
Speaker 2: to be disconnected from its more important or historical cultural melieu.
Speaker 2: I guess I.
Speaker 1: Mean we see that with you. We see that with
Speaker 1: a lot of monsters that appear in Dungeons and Dragons.
Speaker 1: I mean we see yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And I have a very I deal with this a lot,
Speaker 1: like back and forth about this because I think there's
Speaker 1: a way you can change a monster, even if you
Speaker 1: know from its origins. I think you can do it
Speaker 1: intentionally and unintentionally, and I think sometimes it can be
Speaker 1: successful and sometimes it's not. And I think the Window
Speaker 1: Go is a great example. I've done an episode on that,
Speaker 1: and I believe that the influence for the wind to
Speaker 1: Go appearing with those antlers, it comes from the two
Speaker 1: thousand and one Horror movie that Larry Fessenden did, And
Speaker 1: I think that and I don't I've not talked to
Speaker 1: him about this ever. I have, you know, been like
Speaker 1: in the same peripher reason, but I've never had a
Speaker 1: chance to ask this. But he did until Dawn the
Speaker 1: Horror game like video game and spoiler but whatever, it's
Speaker 1: an older game when he goes play a huge part
Speaker 1: of that story and it's dramatically different from how he
Speaker 1: portrayed them in the two thousand and one film. So
Speaker 1: for me, I read that games sort of his necessarily
Speaker 1: a pl but like, oh, maybe there are some things
Speaker 1: I should have done differently, Like here's I'm going to
Speaker 1: tell a different story because I have, you know, more
Speaker 1: information and probably more input. So yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: it's okay to change certain aspects of monsters in their portrayal,
Speaker 1: as long as you're at least have a knowledge of
Speaker 1: why you're doing it, and hopefully with respect of the
Speaker 1: cultures they come from. But you're absolutely correct that. I
Speaker 1: think again, a lot of people who don't maybe engage
Speaker 1: mus with monsters or think as much about horror critically
Speaker 1: think that these are just you know, grotesque things, or
Speaker 1: like things meant just to scare us or what have you,
Speaker 1: when as you pointed out, there are very real instances
Speaker 1: where there is that sort of trade where someone doesn't
Speaker 1: thing in fiction and that appears in like ENCRYPTID sighting,
Speaker 1: or that appears in the way a newspaper or a
Speaker 1: news channel handles the coverage of that sighting and back
Speaker 1: and forth. And I dealt with that recently with my
Speaker 1: project with Audible looking at serial killers, so it's called
Speaker 1: serial Killers Real and Imagined, And the whole sort of
Speaker 1: underlying question I had with that exploration is why are
Speaker 1: we so fascinated by serial killers? And how do our
Speaker 1: expectations of what a quote unquote serial killer is play
Speaker 1: out in fiction and also in the real world in
Speaker 1: terms of news coverage of real serial murderers, but also
Speaker 1: things like convictions and you know, how victims are treated.
Speaker 1: So that was I'd say that usually don't do like
Speaker 1: real monsters, not human monsters. So that was a different project,
Speaker 1: but again same questions like y'all are pointing out. I
Speaker 1: think that it's naive to think that popular culture does
Speaker 1: not have real world applications outside of fiction.
Speaker 4: You know, we could just talk to you for hours.
Speaker 4: You know so much and this is all so interesting.
Speaker 4: You've kind of given us a glimpse already into what
Speaker 4: you're working on, But could you tell us a bit
Speaker 4: more about what you're working on at the moment your
Speaker 4: future projects.
Speaker 1: Yes, as I mentioned, we are actually doing something really
Speaker 1: cool for Monstrom for Halloween slash October this year. We're
Speaker 1: going to be trying some more non traditional things. It's
Speaker 1: all kind of say with that more inlign to like
Speaker 1: what we did with the Universal Monsters, so trying to
Speaker 1: be very thematic to sort of the arrows we're talking about.
Speaker 1: So excited about doing that. I just yeah, came out
Speaker 1: with the audible series. I'll be at dragon Con and
Speaker 1: then personally, I'm revising an academic monograph right now about
Speaker 1: the Undead, and I'm also putting some feelers out there
Speaker 1: for two books, one that looks at the undead and
Speaker 1: these are more public facing, and then one that looks
Speaker 1: actually at cryptids and approaching those from an academic non
Speaker 1: fiction standpoint as sort of these you know, like tabletop
Speaker 1: books are like cool modern like beastiaries, So hopefully you know,
Speaker 1: those will come to fruition. But I'm consulting on some
Speaker 1: projects as well, and you know, just honestly don't say
Speaker 1: no to a lot of things, which is for better
Speaker 1: or words. Yeah, hoping that I get to, you know,
Speaker 1: keep doing all this cool stuff.
Speaker 2: Very cool. Well, I know, we used to do a
Speaker 2: very long form show, and I feel like we could
Speaker 2: probably talk for another ninety minutes and not run out
Speaker 2: of things to say, but we are. We are on
Speaker 2: a tighter schedule now and I regret it. But I
Speaker 2: do want to ask our signature questions since you've been
Speaker 2: so kind to join us, and I really am deeply
Speaker 2: interested in what you're going to answer here? What is
Speaker 2: your favorite monster?
Speaker 1: This question? I will say that my answer often changes,
Speaker 1: and it's like accusing who my favorite child is, right like,
Speaker 1: I feel.
Speaker 2: The same way, feel the same way.
Speaker 1: I will say before I give my current answer that
Speaker 1: all undead beings, all reanimated corpses of any kind, will
Speaker 1: always have a special place in my heart because that's
Speaker 1: truly what got me into horror and got me on
Speaker 1: this incredible journey that I'm on. So there are sort
Speaker 1: of my top always. I really love the knuckle le V.
Speaker 1: I think it's just so gross and dramatic and interesting
Speaker 1: that that's definitely one of my favorites.
Speaker 2: And then reasons for ours who may not know it,
Speaker 2: What is that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So the knuckle of V comes from largely Scottish mythology,
Speaker 1: and it's essentially a quote unquote spirit in flesh who
Speaker 1: lives in the sea and no one knows exactly what
Speaker 1: its shape is when it's under the water, but on
Speaker 1: land it takes the form of a skinless human torso
Speaker 1: riding a skinless horse and again super gross. But whenever
Speaker 1: I see something like that that seems so oddly specific
Speaker 1: and so different. I'm like, Okay, there's got to be.
Speaker 2: Something right.
Speaker 1: One for us, right, Yeah, well, I love Notcklovie, so
Speaker 1: watch that episode. But now, truly they're really interesting, so
Speaker 1: definitely go into traditions of water spirits. But interestingly, they're
Speaker 1: both truly demonic, and there's some evidence that this was
Speaker 1: a type of monster that helped explain things like sudden
Speaker 1: death and horror or you know, an explanation for when
Speaker 1: crops would die out because it had like poisonous breath.
Speaker 1: So I think that's also just a great example of
Speaker 1: how these seemingly ridiculous monsters have these you know, real
Speaker 1: world connections to a degree. But I would say probably
Speaker 1: another one of my favorites is the basilisk, Yeah, which
Speaker 1: is a voice. But I learned from that, which I
Speaker 1: kind of knew before research in that episode, that the
Speaker 1: original basilisks were more like chickens than you know, the
Speaker 1: giant thing that we see in Harry Potter. So I
Speaker 1: think that's just super interesting.
Speaker 2: We covered the basilisk and that was the source of
Speaker 2: maybe the most exciting learning that I've had on this show,
Speaker 2: which is that no, here we go, which is that
Speaker 2: roosters don't have penises, and I I that is it
Speaker 2: just shook my world, Like the why do they call them?
Speaker 2: I still can't let go.
Speaker 1: You just think that it actually goes back to like crocodile.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. We could talk about this for ninety minutes.
Speaker 1: You're totally right, but yeah, those surprise moments when you're
Speaker 1: doing the research, and the basilisk in particular is like
Speaker 1: so rooted and understandings of science and zoology hundreds of
Speaker 1: years ago. I mean amazing, that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: that they should be teaching in school to get kids interested.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly right. Well, and it seems like
Speaker 2: it's one of those monsters that just begs for sort
Speaker 2: of a euhemerism, like well, you know, you go into
Speaker 2: a cave and there's poison gas and it kills you.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's just as easy to say it
Speaker 2: was a basilisk, you know, because they didn't understand, you know,
Speaker 2: all all of the sort of things that can go
Speaker 2: wrong when you enter closed spaces.
Speaker 1: But it's just personally I find myself doing that. It
Speaker 1: just I'm not to bore you all with the story,
Speaker 1: but long story short, there was some weird object on
Speaker 1: our neighbor's roof in like the middle of the night,
Speaker 1: and it looked very inhuman, and I jokingly turned my
Speaker 1: husband and I was like, oh, it's a werewolf, like
Speaker 1: and I know in my head that that's not what
Speaker 1: it was, but at that moment of shock and time,
Speaker 1: like that was the first thing that popped in in
Speaker 1: my head is how to explain that? And I'm an
Speaker 1: educated person in the twenty first century, so I mean
Speaker 1: there's lost history in general, and like that was an
Speaker 1: AHA moment for me. I'm like, oh, so this is
Speaker 1: how that happens, got it?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, And you know, I think when the
Speaker 2: big changes we've had is you know, when I think
Speaker 2: we started out, we were very focused on is it real?
Speaker 2: Is it not real? And branching out into these more
Speaker 2: interesting and deeper cultural questions. What's the significance?
Speaker 1: Yeah, why does it.
Speaker 2: Emerge here and nowhere else? Or how is this like
Speaker 2: a real thing? Or how is this used explanatorily to
Speaker 2: explain a really complicated idea. These are monsters are wonderful
Speaker 2: and I don't think we're ever going to get tired
Speaker 2: of them, and I hope you never do, an I never.
Speaker 1: Will, But I've approached with the exact same way. You
Speaker 1: sum that up perfectly. For me, it's never about is
Speaker 1: the monster real or not? Or trying to credit or
Speaker 1: discredit people's experiences. It's for me, the question is why
Speaker 1: do people want to believe this is real?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 1: And I think that's far more interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, Emily, thank you so much for taking the time
Speaker 2: to talk to us. I know it took a while
Speaker 2: to pull this together, but.
Speaker 3: It great fun it was.
Speaker 2: We really appreciate you being with us today.
Speaker 1: Of course, thank you so much for having me. Hopefully
Speaker 1: I'll be back someday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, I'll see you. Hopefully I'll get to
Speaker 2: see a dragon con so yes.
Speaker 1: Please, and maybe on a ton of panels.
Speaker 2: So come say that awesome? So I bas up the
Speaker 2: great book.
Speaker 1: Thank you indeed so much.
Speaker 2: Monster You've been listening to Monster Doc, the science show
Speaker 2: about monsters. I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stoltner. You
Speaker 2: just listened to an interview with doctor emily' Zarka, host
Speaker 2: of the PBS web series Monstrum. Check out our show
Speaker 2: notes for links to doctor Zarka's work. Karen and I
Speaker 2: think you'll really enjoy the content. And the visuals. Around
Speaker 2: the world, people report monsters, but are they real? Join
Speaker 2: the Detective of the impossible, Joe Nickel as he walks
Speaker 2: you through investigations to reveal often surprising natural explanations behind
Speaker 2: some of the most famous cryptids in legendary animals ever reported.
Speaker 2: Using scientific skepticism, meticulous field work in historical deep dives,
Speaker 2: Joe Nichols seeks out hidden clues and real world candidates
Speaker 2: that sometimes reveal that even the most unlikely monster stories
Speaker 2: may have a basis in reality. The Science of Monsters
Speaker 2: is the first book from Monster House LLC, the publisher
Speaker 2: of science shows, Monster Talk and in research of The
Speaker 2: revised edition is now on sale and includes corrections and
Speaker 2: suggestions from you, our listeners and now readers. Sales of
Speaker 2: The Science of Monsters directly benefits Monster House and its
Speaker 2: podcasts thanks to the generosity of its author. Pick up
Speaker 2: The Revised Science of Monsters today at Amazon dot com,
Speaker 2: available in paperback and kindle editions. Monster Talk theme music
Speaker 2: is by Pete Stealing Monkeys. If this had been an
Speaker 2: actual emergency, you would have been instructed where to tune
Speaker 2: in your area for news and official information. We'll see
Speaker 2: you next week when we'll hear a familiar voice say
Speaker 2: that's right. It's the return of Ken in Vader.
Speaker 1: This has been a Monster House presentation.