WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.000 You see somethings going to happen. 2 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:10.560 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:17.120 I think what a. 4 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:28.600 Help you. Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode. I 5 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:35.359 am joined by Jin the Ninja, Robbie Marx, and Ethan Indigo. Uh, 6 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:37.679 before we get into the guest, Jin, would you like 7 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:39.960 to plug yourself and let all the new listeners know 8 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.759 who you are just in case they don't. 9 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:44.679 Sure? So thanks boss. 10 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.600 I'm always happy to be on with my fellow rejects. 11 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.520 Of course, Robbie and Ethan and I'm Nick also knows 12 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.079 this is that I'm a little nervous and very excited 13 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.280 to be in conversation recording and so if people want 14 00:00:57.320 --> 00:00:59.600 to check me out, you can follow me on Twitter 15 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.560 at wok Onnyborn, w UK and GM Reborn, or you 16 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:06.719 can follow the show account Threshold Saints, also Apple and Spotify. 17 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:07.719 My show is. 18 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:13.359 Called Serial Experiments in Speculative Ontology. So we talked about magic, 19 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.879 but it's more meta magic, meta reality and matter of fact. 20 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:20.920 Awesome. Thank you very much, Jin and Robbie Marx. 21 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:23.319 Yeah, thanks for having me on. 22 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:24.480 This is gonna be a good one. 23 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.719 I'm our Marx or Robbie Marx. I do art for 24 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.200 bands and festivals and various commissioned mom and pop stuff. 25 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:35.840 You can check out all my stuff at my link 26 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:39.400 tree and that'll pull up my art, my podcast, all 27 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.879 my miscellaneous extensions of all the stuff that I do. 28 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.879 Awesome. Thank you very much, shir and last but not least, 29 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:47.239 Ethan in. 30 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.040 The Goo Peace. 31 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:52.359 Honored to be here with you guys. And I am 32 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:57.519 a writer and I like to practice and share taichi too. 33 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.159 But I got I just completed article that's on the 34 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:05.319 Cult Research Institute website, so you can check that out there. 35 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:06.400 And excited to day. 36 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.479 Thank you very much, listen, Thank you very much, Ethan, 37 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:12.039 and thank you very much for adding to the site. 38 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.319 I really appreciate that. And finally to the guest himself. 39 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:18.560 You know, like I said, you know, this is a huge, 40 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:22.639 huge thing for me. When I first got into practicing 41 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.680 magic or even studying it, you know, I started like thinking, oh, 42 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:29.199 there must be podcasts on this stuff as well, you know, 43 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:31.680 because I was already listening to the podcasts about other things, 44 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:35.080 and Rune Soup was one of the first I have 45 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.520 a listen to and got new ideas, heard other people's 46 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.960 you know, practices on magic and even like listen to 47 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.280 him kind of go through like his own like ideas 48 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.000 and changing through practices. And it's really mind blowing and 49 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:50.479 amazing that we got Gordon from Roone Soup on the 50 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:53.840 Occult Rejects. I can't be more excited. This is bizarre 51 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:56.439 and wild. Thank you so much, Gordon for the For 52 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:58.400 the people out there that are listening to the show 53 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:00.400 that unfortunately may not know who you are, can you 54 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:02.759 please let them know what your dealers and what your 55 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:03.360 show's about. 56 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.840 Yeah? Sure, So I'm Gordon. I am the host of 57 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:11.800 Rune Soup, which is a podcast and online magical training 58 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:13.439 community roonsoup dot com. 59 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:14.599 Yeah. 60 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.680 I've lived all over the world. I'm currently based in Paraguay. 61 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.240 I teach magic. I'm a lineage Shamani quila and yeah, 62 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:24.199 I'm excited to be here. 63 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:25.599 Thank you awesome. 64 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:26.400 Uh. 65 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:28.840 I guess the first thing to ask is even, like, 66 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.719 what got you even? Because now you've been doing this 67 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:32.560 for about ten years now, we're very close to that 68 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:37.120 right no longer? Oh really? Really? Okay, my bad? I apologize. 69 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.639 Uh what even got you into doing this? 70 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:42.879 Well? I mean we were kind of talking about this 71 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.080 before the show started. It depends on like the length 72 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.840 of time like the lot longer thing depends on the 73 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.960 starting definition. So I had some very unusual childhood experiences 74 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.639 that fall under what I guess we now call experience 75 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:02.759 to do with sleeperalysis and han attacks and what appeared 76 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:09.280 to be like screen memories I suppose, for I don't know, 77 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.840 some kind of contact events and so on. So it's 78 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:14.840 like if I if I start the story there, it's 79 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.279 been since I was four, but in terms of the 80 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.920 intentional practice of magic, that began about the age of thirteen, 81 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.079 and I just sort of sat bolt upright in bed 82 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.639 one morning. It was a Saturday morning, and I was 83 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.040 referering soccer at the time, which meant I was absolutely 84 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.279 minted compared to my friends because it was good money, 85 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.279 which was the only reason why I did it, because 86 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.959 I hate soccer and I'm something weird happened. So I 87 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:41.600 walked down the hill we're about, I guess in American 88 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.000 terms two and a half miles three miles from two 89 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.879 and a half miles from a really good independent bookstore, 90 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:53.199 and so I bought a bunch of I guess, very 91 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:57.600 pastel covered Llewellyn books and a packet of cigarettes, and 92 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.560 I went and sat in the ground dowd of the 93 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.319 local stadium and that was the beginning of the learning journey. 94 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:07.199 But something had happened in the dream space that made 95 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.560 me go all right, I mean you buy some books 96 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.839 on like Wika and shit, and that was the beginning 97 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.319 of the professional career. I suppose that's great. 98 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.120 Little well In books some great books too. 99 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:23.360 Actually I can say it. I'm a little well And author. 100 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.439 So you know, oh you nice, nice. 101 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.759 Chaos Protocols is Llen So obviously most of my book 102 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.360 are through Scarlet Imprint, but Chaos Protocols is a Llewellyn book. 103 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.279 Wow, you know if you don't mind, actually real quick, 104 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:36.560 do you want to just listen as some of the 105 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:38.600 things that you have written that you've published. 106 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.519 To sure, so the Chaos Protocols, which is through Llewellyn, 107 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.800 and that's a no, it's it's got chaos in the 108 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:46.160 title because it kind of had to, but it's not 109 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.319 a Chaos magic book. My Chaos Magic book is called 110 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.160 Pieces of Eight. That's a self published kindle only one. 111 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.040 And my main books are The Starships are Prehistory of 112 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:56.720 the Spirits and my most recent one, which is Animistic, 113 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.319 are through Scarlet imprint, as will the third book in 114 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.000 that trilogy, in my dot trilogy is what I'm calling it, 115 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.240 which will be out through them when I finished writing it. 116 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:10.160 Yeah, look good for you, and good look on that 117 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.360 throughout podcasting even like for you when you started podcasting. Now, 118 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.040 I know you've had so many different people in the 119 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:21.639 magical community that has you know, looked at as you 120 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:23.639 know they kind of have something to say. Maybe listen 121 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.040 to them, you know, very well revered. And I was 122 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:31.720 just wondering due to that, has that influenced even your 123 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:34.720 practicing and your understanding of magic throughout your I guess 124 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:35.519 career of doing this. 125 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:39.879 Yes, in the sense of like a joke, it's a 126 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.720 very gay joke, but the show is always like my 127 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:47.040 song for the loan, like it's a When I first 128 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:50.920 started reading these books, like going back to spending my 129 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:55.360 refereeing money on these books, I fairly quickly got to 130 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:59.360 the wiser Pete Carroll books, and I want to like, 131 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:01.240 who is this man? Does he live in a tower? 132 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:03.959 Like what the hell is going on? Because when you're 133 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:07.720 growing up in a faded coal mining town on the 134 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:11.399 East coast of Australia, which in the eighteen nineties was 135 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:13.800 considered the worst place in the empire. You're reading about 136 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:16.879 these people and you're like, I don't I don't have 137 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:21.399 a frame of reference for these people. And the show 138 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:26.720 was for me as a kid listening on a bus 139 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.079 or which is ironic actually now because podcasts are pretty 140 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.920 solidly millennial, like No One. I make the joke that 141 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.959 it's kind of like the music in malls, like no 142 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.040 one under thirty? Can you actually even hear them? 143 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:39.639 Right? 144 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:42.839 So that bit didn't quite work. But it was for 145 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.160 this idea of people who live somewhere regional or remotely 146 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.040 to turn these authors or these ideas that were very 147 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.439 important to them into some kind of person, into some 148 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.839 kind of relationship, and podcasts are great for that. They're 149 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:59.800 really good for that intimate experience because they're generally an 150 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:04.480 ear pod situation, often in public or when you're in 151 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:06.879 your domestic life, when you're cleaning and so on. So 152 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:12.560 it's a really beautiful intimate way of sharing information if 153 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:14.160 you know that that's what you're doing. If you're just 154 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.680 trying to replace talkback radio, it's a dumpster fire. But 155 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.800 if you take seriously, oh, I'm actually just calling someone 156 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.439 up in their home and finding out what sort of 157 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.720 person they are, and someone else is listening to that 158 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.759 in their skull. It's a really beautiful transmission medium. So 159 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.240 in that sense, yes, in the sense of I had 160 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.720 the sense wrong, but I'll say it this way. I'm 161 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.919 no longer. I'm less intimidated by fancy people now, but 162 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.320 in a good way, Like I still respect their ideas 163 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.080 and so on, but I don't. You don't trip over 164 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.120 your feet or your tongue meeting them because you're aware 165 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.000 of the opportunity that these kind of conversations have and 166 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:55.120 that they can facilitate. 167 00:08:55.879 --> 00:09:01.720 Yeah, I love that. That's great. Yeah, uh okay, now 168 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.600 throughout I know, like one of the things I wanted 169 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:08.039 to talk about too, not saying that you know, all 170 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.440 your guests weren't great, but like which ones was it 171 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.519 that maybe kind of impacted you the most that you 172 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:15.120 think that you've had on so far, or like some 173 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.759 of the more exciting exciting ones. 174 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:23.639 Oh that's two different slow burn Yeah, there are some 175 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.000 slow burns, like when I think about doctor Jeff Crepel 176 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.919 or Mitch Horowitz or people who are Mitch is in 177 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.840 magic now, I guess, but like to himself, a believing historian. 178 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:39.879 But there, let's say Norman work is so impactful and 179 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.159 and the implications are so rich for for the practice 180 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:47.159 of magic that those are the slow burn ones that 181 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:49.960 stick with you as you carry on a magical career. 182 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.600 You have Garry Lackman's in that camp as well. Actually, 183 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.120 so if you actually put together Gary and Mitch and 184 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:00.799 Jeff Crepel, you have a invitation into the story of 185 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.759 magic stretching back to the hermetic Hellenistic era all the 186 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:11.600 way up to now, and you have a horizontal way 187 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:17.320 of framing the significance of that alongside paranormal events and 188 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:20.159 sigh and so on, and people like doctor Dean Raid 189 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.519 and that kind of stuff for actual magicians. Very early 190 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.600 on it was really like the wild and wooly days, 191 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.399 even before the podcast began, where I had a little 192 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.440 task camera recorder and I had a strange experience when 193 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:37.399 I moved to Bristol in the UK, I ended up, 194 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.639 my apartment ended up, and I didn't know this at 195 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:44.000 the time. Overlooking where Pete Carroll's now closed place of 196 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:48.000 business was so like I shared an alleyway with where 197 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.720 he worked for thirty five years. But that's a really 198 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.200 unusual kind of combination. I just emailed him and we 199 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.840 had a chat in a pirate pub in Bristol and 200 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.440 it was just sort of like that a context. I 201 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:03.399 did a film degree, majoring in documentary, so this I 202 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.679 was really excited at the idea of just having a 203 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.960 recorder in front of people and having a conversation. Now 204 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.960 it's ubiquitous, but at the time it was a little 205 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.000 bit more adventurous. So the ones that were the most 206 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:23.600 transformative or like big gets from a magical reputational perspective, 207 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:25.639 were early on and a lot of them became friends. 208 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:27.919 So I think about Jake Stretton Kent or Peter and 209 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:32.120 alchistis a scarlet in print, who are my publishers? A 210 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:39.159 lot of the English crew of that ILK were early 211 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.480 on and really exciting, like getting to meet Pete Carroll 212 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:45.919 having read his books when I was thirteen, was like, 213 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.320 this is excellent, this is so good. I can't believe 214 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.279 this somehow happened. But yeah, those are the ones, and 215 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.039 some of them, like I said, well Jake's now passed, 216 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.000 but that they ended up becoming friends when I was 217 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:04.519 in London. But from a magical respect influence perspective, it 218 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:06.960 was it was that English crew. 219 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:10.000 I guess yes, thank you. 220 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:11.000 Uh. 221 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.399 Did anybody else want to ask any questions before I 222 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.240 keep going? Right? 223 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:19.720 Uh? 224 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:23.519 I'll ask I'll ask a question I was wondering maybe 225 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:28.480 relative to your book Pieces of Eight, could you break 226 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.600 down eight kind of seems to be like a universal uh? 227 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:36.840 The eight elements rather kind of seem like a universal 228 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.960 concept among actually the divination practice, and maybe it relates 229 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.559 to the nine uh Uh? With Odin being on the 230 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:51.600 tree of nine limbs for nine days? Could could you 231 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:54.919 break down that how that the eight might relate with 232 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.360 the runic practices specifically and maybe universally too. 233 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.279 So so eight This is another one of those questions 234 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:06.720 that it depends how you want to define it drastically 235 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.320 changes it. So the chaos interest in eight comes from 236 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:14.039 Pete Carroll, and it comes to Pete Carroll from The 237 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:17.639 Eight Colors of Magic, which was a Terry Pratchett novel. 238 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.399 So that's where he got it from. Now where did 239 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.840 And it's not like Terry Pratchett was a secret magician. 240 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.720 Quite the opposite. Unfortunately, he was like a dull, loser atheist. 241 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:35.279 But the association of eight and magic is he was 242 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.799 more inspired his my understanding anyway of the significance of 243 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:44.320 eight in the Oriental like a Chinese the significance of 244 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.399 eight in Chinese magic or mythology rather than anything runic. 245 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.840 So that's the straight line. And I like pirates and 246 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:55.320 always have, So that's the straight line from eight to 247 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:59.080 Pieces of Eight, and in obviously because the book is small, 248 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:01.960 almost chapbook style, and the chapters themselves are small, I 249 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:05.200 like the idea of it being eight. But the esoteric 250 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:10.000 symbolism comes to that book via Pete Carroll, which comes 251 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.039 from like a comedy novel for young adults. But it's 252 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.519 sort of sort of got in there from China, so 253 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.879 it's not so much with the not so much with 254 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.360 the Nordic or Runic stuff, which is there in like 255 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.240 nineties Chaos magic for sure. People I had used to 256 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.159 make this joke that Chas Magic is like Atlanta or 257 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.200 something like, you land there on your way somewhere else 258 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.879 in the and it seemed in the nineties that it 259 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.440 was you either ended up in ruins or some sort 260 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.120 of tantra, and those were the where everyone kind of 261 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:48.159 went in the nineties, was Chas Magic on their way 262 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.559 to ruins or tantra, it's a bit different now in 263 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:55.559 the twenty first century, I think, because there's enough almost 264 00:14:55.639 --> 00:15:01.919 like epistemic and practice depth in in chaos itself outside 265 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.720 of the orders that people can spend a few years there. 266 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.200 But nevertheless, it's a I think of it as a 267 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:14.480 fundamentally destructive and deconstructive modality by design, not it's its 268 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:18.039 benefit and its floor is that it kind of unpicks things. 269 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.559 So it's actually a really good place to start because 270 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.320 it Speaking of doctor Jeffkreifel, Jeff Kreipel, he says, if 271 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.600 you want to be a religious historian or some sort 272 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.679 of comparative researcher working in that field, you have to 273 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.240 lose two worlds. You have to lose the world that 274 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.879 you came from, and you have to lose the world 275 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.399 that you think is the solution for the world that 276 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.639 you came from. So we were talking about that. But 277 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:44.879 like you might might have grown up a snake handler 278 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.919 and said, well, this is all garbage, and then you 279 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.559 have the three years in Buddhist phase and go this 280 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.799 is actually different garbage, but it's also kind of garbage. 281 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.399 I mean, when you get to the end of that 282 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.279 second world, you're in a more open and dare we 283 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:05.000 say wise placed on board incomplete systems or remain humble 284 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:06.639 is a better way of saying. It remained humble in 285 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:10.679 the face of totalizing explanations. 286 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.320 I wondered related to the eighth, I know it, forgive 287 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:17.559 me if I'm mispronouncing the vesvasir. 288 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:19.799 I'm not sure. 289 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:27.399 Actually, it's that eight direction runic symbol and it has 290 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:31.600 the eight. It's the wayfarer sometimes termed. I was just 291 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:34.799 wondering if that was something that you came across and 292 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:35.320 looked into. 293 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:37.559 Oh, I'm familiar with it. It's just but that's not 294 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.720 where pieces of eight came from. And the runing stuff 295 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.600 was attached. The runing stuff was attached afterwards because also 296 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:48.799 the sort of anous shape of the chaos star comes 297 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:53.720 from Michael moore cock English fantasy novels as well, so 298 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:58.159 that any other eights that could be applied have been 299 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.279 like retroactively stuck on it. That's definitely one of them. 300 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.200 But it literally was a combination of a couple of 301 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.400 British fantasy novel let's put together and then it's like, right, 302 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.000 what can we do, what can we do to like 303 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:14.079 magic up this eight business? And it works. I mean 304 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.119 that one particularly, that kind of thing is quite evocative 305 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:21.200 to I like the Chinese stuff better, but that kind 306 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.000 of runic overlap is very evocative, I think, and it 307 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.519 kind of speaks to this is coming back to how 308 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.279 where you last sue? The question or the field of 309 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.960 answer is like, okay, well where did markok get the 310 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:42.000 idea of eight? The Pythagorea in associations of it the 311 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.880 idea of eight directions? Because it's a doubling up of 312 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.960 the four cardinal directions and so and like there's ways 313 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.240 that it feeds into a novel to get into chaos magic, 314 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.000 and that's always been interesting to me, like the Yungian 315 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:56.720 imaginal approach to it. 316 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:02.400 I guess I actually had a follow up question for you, 317 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:05.640 Gordon on it's not really related to eights, but maybe 318 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.599 I've heard you tell a story. I'm sure this for 319 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.799 you is a long time ago, but you were a 320 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.960 young boy in Chinatown and you went into a Chinese 321 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:17.160 religious store and you purchased that I think it was 322 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.200 the Guanyu, the Marshall Saint, but you didn't know who 323 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.960 it was at that time. You just kind of knew 324 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:25.000 that it would work for you, so it's kind of 325 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.039 like you took a chaos magic approach to folk religion 326 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.480 right away. And there's also something cabalistically interesting about that 327 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.519 is because it is kind of like a klipa. 328 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.880 It is kind of like an aggregation outer clay vessel, 329 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:39.160 but a literal one. 330 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:44.240 So I wondered if you have reflected on sort of 331 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.279 those beginnings in terms of where you've come to now 332 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.599 and like what is the relationship, because you're saying you 333 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.759 prefer the Chinese cosmology, and I totally agree with you. 334 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.599 The Chinese cosmologies for me is very interesting as well. 335 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.680 I mean, I am a Chinese, of course it would 336 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.519 be a I interested but sorry, I'll let you answer, 337 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.559 But I just know I want if there's a way 338 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:10.240 to sort of synthesize those earlier thinking with how you 339 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.920 where you're at now in your magical or spiritual. 340 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:20.359 Honestly, it's such a fantastic fucking question because so there's 341 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.319 a couple of places that I began my Chinese appropriation journey, 342 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.559 and one of them is in Sydney's Chinatown. The other 343 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.359 one because my mother used to have a Benetton store 344 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:30.160 for a few years when I was a kid, and 345 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.400 instead of buying in Italy for the store you would buy. 346 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.279 Benetton's Southern Hemisphere was run out of Hong Kong, so 347 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:37.920 we'd go a couple of times a year to Hong 348 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.200 Kong so she could do the clothing buying for the store. 349 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.960 So that's where I bought my first. If you're listening 350 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.000 to this, I'm like giving extreme air quotes Crystal Ball 351 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.599 a resin sphere which nevertheless worked. But that's where I 352 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.680 got my first like Dagger and so on. But to 353 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.799 answer your question, it's a weird kind of full circle 354 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.559 because the stuff you would buy in Chinatown in because 355 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:04.240 if you're unfamiliar, we're like Sydney's basically it's like thirty 356 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.680 twenty five thirty percent Chinese. Now like it's in the 357 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.839 South Pacific, it's an Asian city, so there's it's got 358 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:15.599 a huge excellence Chinatown. And you go into these stores, 359 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:17.839 these whatever you want to call they're actually usually called 360 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.359 La Buddhist supply stores and they're not super Buddhist like this. 361 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.640 This is where the tiger mums come to buy the 362 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.160 amulets for their feckless sons to make sure they get 363 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.200 like good maths results like that. If you look at 364 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.640 you go to the talisman world, it's like, oh, you 365 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.119 know who your market is. There's like mothers and grandmothers 366 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.359 coming in to buy shit to like essentially traumatize their 367 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.440 children into working as much as possible in school and 368 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.319 music and so on. But what that actually shows is 369 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.559 and I'm sad with this because we included some itaching 370 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.359 training as part of the time magic course that I 371 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:58.119 taught at the end of last year, when in a 372 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.039 Chinese context, the eaching is not considered magic. It's just daching, 373 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.200 and so are these ambulance Like it's just the reality 374 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:09.000 you just do these things. We have magic is that 375 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.599 I've always enjoyed the tension of this magic is like 376 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.680 a culture specific destination for things that we've rarely been 377 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.079 allowed to do. And that's not where the rest of 378 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.000 the world cuts the sandwich on the horizontal rather than diagonal. 379 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:24.519 And that's the full circle for me, is that I 380 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.359 was shopping in these stores where it wasn't even considered magic. 381 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.400 It's just the thing you did, Like it's like, oh 382 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.200 you need this charm or this is what you do, 383 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.480 and it's it's life ways like it's actually been operating 384 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.279 from your cosmo vision. That's the full circle for me now, 385 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.359 because it's not something I go and do. It's not 386 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.640 something necessarily that requires the robes. And it's like in 387 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.839 Paraguay here with friends like the Kimbunda House I'm associated 388 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:53.759 with and so on. It's this is the most Catholic 389 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.359 country in South America, and the magic stuff is nevertheless normal. 390 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:01.640 It's not overt like in Brazil or somewhere in parts 391 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:05.680 of Brazil anyway, but it nevertheless in every little part 392 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.200 of a cincion. You know the medico yana who knows 393 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.359 the right herbal treatment, you know, the guide to look 394 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.279 to ask if you've lost something, for him to tell 395 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.759 you who stole it at like real cunning folks. Stuff 396 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.880 that's not considered magic because you don't do magic here 397 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.720 because it's super Catholic. And that's the full circle for me, 398 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:30.680 is like I'm just back to it's life rather than magic, 399 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.400 the doing of these things. And that's what I found 400 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.839 and resonated with in China Town as a kid, was 401 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.519