Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: I think what a.
Speaker 1: Help you. Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode. I
Speaker 1: am joined by Jin the Ninja, Robbie Marx, and Ethan Indigo. Uh,
Speaker 1: before we get into the guest, Jin, would you like
Speaker 1: to plug yourself and let all the new listeners know
Speaker 1: who you are just in case they don't.
Speaker 2: Sure? So thanks boss.
Speaker 4: I'm always happy to be on with my fellow rejects.
Speaker 4: Of course, Robbie and Ethan and I'm Nick also knows
Speaker 4: this is that I'm a little nervous and very excited
Speaker 4: to be in conversation recording and so if people want
Speaker 4: to check me out, you can follow me on Twitter
Speaker 4: at wok Onnyborn, w UK and GM Reborn, or you
Speaker 4: can follow the show account Threshold Saints, also Apple and Spotify.
Speaker 2: My show is.
Speaker 4: Called Serial Experiments in Speculative Ontology. So we talked about magic,
Speaker 4: but it's more meta magic, meta reality and matter of fact.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you very much, Jin and Robbie Marx.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3: This is gonna be a good one.
Speaker 5: I'm our Marx or Robbie Marx. I do art for
Speaker 5: bands and festivals and various commissioned mom and pop stuff.
Speaker 5: You can check out all my stuff at my link
Speaker 5: tree and that'll pull up my art, my podcast, all
Speaker 5: my miscellaneous extensions of all the stuff that I do.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you very much, shir and last but not least,
Speaker 1: Ethan in.
Speaker 3: The Goo Peace.
Speaker 6: Honored to be here with you guys. And I am
Speaker 6: a writer and I like to practice and share taichi too.
Speaker 6: But I got I just completed article that's on the
Speaker 6: Cult Research Institute website, so you can check that out there.
Speaker 3: And excited to day.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, listen, Thank you very much, Ethan,
Speaker 1: and thank you very much for adding to the site.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. And finally to the guest himself.
Speaker 1: You know, like I said, you know, this is a huge,
Speaker 1: huge thing for me. When I first got into practicing
Speaker 1: magic or even studying it, you know, I started like thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: there must be podcasts on this stuff as well, you know,
Speaker 1: because I was already listening to the podcasts about other things,
Speaker 1: and Rune Soup was one of the first I have
Speaker 1: a listen to and got new ideas, heard other people's
Speaker 1: you know, practices on magic and even like listen to
Speaker 1: him kind of go through like his own like ideas
Speaker 1: and changing through practices. And it's really mind blowing and
Speaker 1: amazing that we got Gordon from Roone Soup on the
Speaker 1: Occult Rejects. I can't be more excited. This is bizarre
Speaker 1: and wild. Thank you so much, Gordon for the For
Speaker 1: the people out there that are listening to the show
Speaker 1: that unfortunately may not know who you are, can you
Speaker 1: please let them know what your dealers and what your
Speaker 1: show's about.
Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, So I'm Gordon. I am the host of
Speaker 3: Rune Soup, which is a podcast and online magical training
Speaker 3: community roonsoup dot com.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've lived all over the world. I'm currently based in Paraguay.
Speaker 3: I teach magic. I'm a lineage Shamani quila and yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you awesome.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: I guess the first thing to ask is even, like,
Speaker 1: what got you even? Because now you've been doing this
Speaker 1: for about ten years now, we're very close to that
Speaker 1: right no longer? Oh really? Really? Okay, my bad? I apologize.
Speaker 1: Uh what even got you into doing this?
Speaker 3: Well? I mean we were kind of talking about this
Speaker 3: before the show started. It depends on like the length
Speaker 3: of time like the lot longer thing depends on the
Speaker 3: starting definition. So I had some very unusual childhood experiences
Speaker 3: that fall under what I guess we now call experience
Speaker 3: to do with sleeperalysis and han attacks and what appeared
Speaker 3: to be like screen memories I suppose, for I don't know,
Speaker 3: some kind of contact events and so on. So it's
Speaker 3: like if I if I start the story there, it's
Speaker 3: been since I was four, but in terms of the
Speaker 3: intentional practice of magic, that began about the age of thirteen,
Speaker 3: and I just sort of sat bolt upright in bed
Speaker 3: one morning. It was a Saturday morning, and I was
Speaker 3: referering soccer at the time, which meant I was absolutely
Speaker 3: minted compared to my friends because it was good money,
Speaker 3: which was the only reason why I did it, because
Speaker 3: I hate soccer and I'm something weird happened. So I
Speaker 3: walked down the hill we're about, I guess in American
Speaker 3: terms two and a half miles three miles from two
Speaker 3: and a half miles from a really good independent bookstore,
Speaker 3: and so I bought a bunch of I guess, very
Speaker 3: pastel covered Llewellyn books and a packet of cigarettes, and
Speaker 3: I went and sat in the ground dowd of the
Speaker 3: local stadium and that was the beginning of the learning journey.
Speaker 3: But something had happened in the dream space that made
Speaker 3: me go all right, I mean you buy some books
Speaker 3: on like Wika and shit, and that was the beginning
Speaker 3: of the professional career. I suppose that's great.
Speaker 1: Little well In books some great books too.
Speaker 3: Actually I can say it. I'm a little well And author.
Speaker 1: So you know, oh you nice, nice.
Speaker 3: Chaos Protocols is Llen So obviously most of my book
Speaker 3: are through Scarlet Imprint, but Chaos Protocols is a Llewellyn book.
Speaker 1: Wow, you know if you don't mind, actually real quick,
Speaker 1: do you want to just listen as some of the
Speaker 1: things that you have written that you've published.
Speaker 3: To sure, so the Chaos Protocols, which is through Llewellyn,
Speaker 3: and that's a no, it's it's got chaos in the
Speaker 3: title because it kind of had to, but it's not
Speaker 3: a Chaos magic book. My Chaos Magic book is called
Speaker 3: Pieces of Eight. That's a self published kindle only one.
Speaker 3: And my main books are The Starships are Prehistory of
Speaker 3: the Spirits and my most recent one, which is Animistic,
Speaker 3: are through Scarlet imprint, as will the third book in
Speaker 3: that trilogy, in my dot trilogy is what I'm calling it,
Speaker 3: which will be out through them when I finished writing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look good for you, and good look on that
Speaker 1: throughout podcasting even like for you when you started podcasting. Now,
Speaker 1: I know you've had so many different people in the
Speaker 1: magical community that has you know, looked at as you
Speaker 1: know they kind of have something to say. Maybe listen
Speaker 1: to them, you know, very well revered. And I was
Speaker 1: just wondering due to that, has that influenced even your
Speaker 1: practicing and your understanding of magic throughout your I guess
Speaker 1: career of doing this.
Speaker 3: Yes, in the sense of like a joke, it's a
Speaker 3: very gay joke, but the show is always like my
Speaker 3: song for the loan, like it's a When I first
Speaker 3: started reading these books, like going back to spending my
Speaker 3: refereeing money on these books, I fairly quickly got to
Speaker 3: the wiser Pete Carroll books, and I want to like,
Speaker 3: who is this man? Does he live in a tower?
Speaker 3: Like what the hell is going on? Because when you're
Speaker 3: growing up in a faded coal mining town on the
Speaker 3: East coast of Australia, which in the eighteen nineties was
Speaker 3: considered the worst place in the empire. You're reading about
Speaker 3: these people and you're like, I don't I don't have
Speaker 3: a frame of reference for these people. And the show
Speaker 3: was for me as a kid listening on a bus
Speaker 3: or which is ironic actually now because podcasts are pretty
Speaker 3: solidly millennial, like No One. I make the joke that
Speaker 3: it's kind of like the music in malls, like no
Speaker 3: one under thirty? Can you actually even hear them?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: So that bit didn't quite work. But it was for
Speaker 3: this idea of people who live somewhere regional or remotely
Speaker 3: to turn these authors or these ideas that were very
Speaker 3: important to them into some kind of person, into some
Speaker 3: kind of relationship, and podcasts are great for that. They're
Speaker 3: really good for that intimate experience because they're generally an
Speaker 3: ear pod situation, often in public or when you're in
Speaker 3: your domestic life, when you're cleaning and so on. So
Speaker 3: it's a really beautiful intimate way of sharing information if
Speaker 3: you know that that's what you're doing. If you're just
Speaker 3: trying to replace talkback radio, it's a dumpster fire. But
Speaker 3: if you take seriously, oh, I'm actually just calling someone
Speaker 3: up in their home and finding out what sort of
Speaker 3: person they are, and someone else is listening to that
Speaker 3: in their skull. It's a really beautiful transmission medium. So
Speaker 3: in that sense, yes, in the sense of I had
Speaker 3: the sense wrong, but I'll say it this way. I'm
Speaker 3: no longer. I'm less intimidated by fancy people now, but
Speaker 3: in a good way, Like I still respect their ideas
Speaker 3: and so on, but I don't. You don't trip over
Speaker 3: your feet or your tongue meeting them because you're aware
Speaker 3: of the opportunity that these kind of conversations have and
Speaker 3: that they can facilitate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. That's great. Yeah, uh okay, now
Speaker 1: throughout I know, like one of the things I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about too, not saying that you know, all
Speaker 1: your guests weren't great, but like which ones was it
Speaker 1: that maybe kind of impacted you the most that you
Speaker 1: think that you've had on so far, or like some
Speaker 1: of the more exciting exciting ones.
Speaker 3: Oh that's two different slow burn Yeah, there are some
Speaker 3: slow burns, like when I think about doctor Jeff Crepel
Speaker 3: or Mitch Horowitz or people who are Mitch is in
Speaker 3: magic now, I guess, but like to himself, a believing historian.
Speaker 3: But there, let's say Norman work is so impactful and
Speaker 3: and the implications are so rich for for the practice
Speaker 3: of magic that those are the slow burn ones that
Speaker 3: stick with you as you carry on a magical career.
Speaker 3: You have Garry Lackman's in that camp as well. Actually,
Speaker 3: so if you actually put together Gary and Mitch and
Speaker 3: Jeff Crepel, you have a invitation into the story of
Speaker 3: magic stretching back to the hermetic Hellenistic era all the
Speaker 3: way up to now, and you have a horizontal way
Speaker 3: of framing the significance of that alongside paranormal events and
Speaker 3: sigh and so on, and people like doctor Dean Raid
Speaker 3: and that kind of stuff for actual magicians. Very early
Speaker 3: on it was really like the wild and wooly days,
Speaker 3: even before the podcast began, where I had a little
Speaker 3: task camera recorder and I had a strange experience when
Speaker 3: I moved to Bristol in the UK, I ended up,
Speaker 3: my apartment ended up, and I didn't know this at
Speaker 3: the time. Overlooking where Pete Carroll's now closed place of
Speaker 3: business was so like I shared an alleyway with where
Speaker 3: he worked for thirty five years. But that's a really
Speaker 3: unusual kind of combination. I just emailed him and we
Speaker 3: had a chat in a pirate pub in Bristol and
Speaker 3: it was just sort of like that a context. I
Speaker 3: did a film degree, majoring in documentary, so this I
Speaker 3: was really excited at the idea of just having a
Speaker 3: recorder in front of people and having a conversation. Now
Speaker 3: it's ubiquitous, but at the time it was a little
Speaker 3: bit more adventurous. So the ones that were the most
Speaker 3: transformative or like big gets from a magical reputational perspective,
Speaker 3: were early on and a lot of them became friends.
Speaker 3: So I think about Jake Stretton Kent or Peter and
Speaker 3: alchistis a scarlet in print, who are my publishers? A
Speaker 3: lot of the English crew of that ILK were early
Speaker 3: on and really exciting, like getting to meet Pete Carroll
Speaker 3: having read his books when I was thirteen, was like,
Speaker 3: this is excellent, this is so good. I can't believe
Speaker 3: this somehow happened. But yeah, those are the ones, and
Speaker 3: some of them, like I said, well Jake's now passed,
Speaker 3: but that they ended up becoming friends when I was
Speaker 3: in London. But from a magical respect influence perspective, it
Speaker 3: was it was that English crew.
Speaker 1: I guess yes, thank you.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Did anybody else want to ask any questions before I
Speaker 1: keep going? Right?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 6: I'll ask I'll ask a question I was wondering maybe
Speaker 6: relative to your book Pieces of Eight, could you break
Speaker 6: down eight kind of seems to be like a universal uh?
Speaker 6: The eight elements rather kind of seem like a universal
Speaker 6: concept among actually the divination practice, and maybe it relates
Speaker 6: to the nine uh Uh? With Odin being on the
Speaker 6: tree of nine limbs for nine days? Could could you
Speaker 6: break down that how that the eight might relate with
Speaker 6: the runic practices specifically and maybe universally too.
Speaker 3: So so eight This is another one of those questions
Speaker 3: that it depends how you want to define it drastically
Speaker 3: changes it. So the chaos interest in eight comes from
Speaker 3: Pete Carroll, and it comes to Pete Carroll from The
Speaker 3: Eight Colors of Magic, which was a Terry Pratchett novel.
Speaker 3: So that's where he got it from. Now where did
Speaker 3: And it's not like Terry Pratchett was a secret magician.
Speaker 3: Quite the opposite. Unfortunately, he was like a dull, loser atheist.
Speaker 3: But the association of eight and magic is he was
Speaker 3: more inspired his my understanding anyway of the significance of
Speaker 3: eight in the Oriental like a Chinese the significance of
Speaker 3: eight in Chinese magic or mythology rather than anything runic.
Speaker 3: So that's the straight line. And I like pirates and
Speaker 3: always have, So that's the straight line from eight to
Speaker 3: Pieces of Eight, and in obviously because the book is small,
Speaker 3: almost chapbook style, and the chapters themselves are small, I
Speaker 3: like the idea of it being eight. But the esoteric
Speaker 3: symbolism comes to that book via Pete Carroll, which comes
Speaker 3: from like a comedy novel for young adults. But it's
Speaker 3: sort of sort of got in there from China, so
Speaker 3: it's not so much with the not so much with
Speaker 3: the Nordic or Runic stuff, which is there in like
Speaker 3: nineties Chaos magic for sure. People I had used to
Speaker 3: make this joke that Chas Magic is like Atlanta or
Speaker 3: something like, you land there on your way somewhere else
Speaker 3: in the and it seemed in the nineties that it
Speaker 3: was you either ended up in ruins or some sort
Speaker 3: of tantra, and those were the where everyone kind of
Speaker 3: went in the nineties, was Chas Magic on their way
Speaker 3: to ruins or tantra, it's a bit different now in
Speaker 3: the twenty first century, I think, because there's enough almost
Speaker 3: like epistemic and practice depth in in chaos itself outside
Speaker 3: of the orders that people can spend a few years there.
Speaker 3: But nevertheless, it's a I think of it as a
Speaker 3: fundamentally destructive and deconstructive modality by design, not it's its
Speaker 3: benefit and its floor is that it kind of unpicks things.
Speaker 3: So it's actually a really good place to start because
Speaker 3: it Speaking of doctor Jeffkreifel, Jeff Kreipel, he says, if
Speaker 3: you want to be a religious historian or some sort
Speaker 3: of comparative researcher working in that field, you have to
Speaker 3: lose two worlds. You have to lose the world that
Speaker 3: you came from, and you have to lose the world
Speaker 3: that you think is the solution for the world that
Speaker 3: you came from. So we were talking about that. But
Speaker 3: like you might might have grown up a snake handler
Speaker 3: and said, well, this is all garbage, and then you
Speaker 3: have the three years in Buddhist phase and go this
Speaker 3: is actually different garbage, but it's also kind of garbage.
Speaker 3: I mean, when you get to the end of that
Speaker 3: second world, you're in a more open and dare we
Speaker 3: say wise placed on board incomplete systems or remain humble
Speaker 3: is a better way of saying. It remained humble in
Speaker 3: the face of totalizing explanations.
Speaker 6: I wondered related to the eighth, I know it, forgive
Speaker 6: me if I'm mispronouncing the vesvasir.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
Speaker 6: Actually, it's that eight direction runic symbol and it has
Speaker 6: the eight. It's the wayfarer sometimes termed. I was just
Speaker 6: wondering if that was something that you came across and
Speaker 6: looked into.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm familiar with it. It's just but that's not
Speaker 3: where pieces of eight came from. And the runing stuff
Speaker 3: was attached. The runing stuff was attached afterwards because also
Speaker 3: the sort of anous shape of the chaos star comes
Speaker 3: from Michael moore cock English fantasy novels as well, so
Speaker 3: that any other eights that could be applied have been
Speaker 3: like retroactively stuck on it. That's definitely one of them.
Speaker 3: But it literally was a combination of a couple of
Speaker 3: British fantasy novel let's put together and then it's like, right,
Speaker 3: what can we do, what can we do to like
Speaker 3: magic up this eight business? And it works. I mean
Speaker 3: that one particularly, that kind of thing is quite evocative
Speaker 3: to I like the Chinese stuff better, but that kind
Speaker 3: of runic overlap is very evocative, I think, and it
Speaker 3: kind of speaks to this is coming back to how
Speaker 3: where you last sue? The question or the field of
Speaker 3: answer is like, okay, well where did markok get the
Speaker 3: idea of eight? The Pythagorea in associations of it the
Speaker 3: idea of eight directions? Because it's a doubling up of
Speaker 3: the four cardinal directions and so and like there's ways
Speaker 3: that it feeds into a novel to get into chaos magic,
Speaker 3: and that's always been interesting to me, like the Yungian
Speaker 3: imaginal approach to it.
Speaker 4: I guess I actually had a follow up question for you,
Speaker 4: Gordon on it's not really related to eights, but maybe
Speaker 4: I've heard you tell a story. I'm sure this for
Speaker 4: you is a long time ago, but you were a
Speaker 4: young boy in Chinatown and you went into a Chinese
Speaker 4: religious store and you purchased that I think it was
Speaker 4: the Guanyu, the Marshall Saint, but you didn't know who
Speaker 4: it was at that time. You just kind of knew
Speaker 4: that it would work for you, so it's kind of
Speaker 4: like you took a chaos magic approach to folk religion
Speaker 4: right away. And there's also something cabalistically interesting about that
Speaker 4: is because it is kind of like a klipa.
Speaker 2: It is kind of like an aggregation outer clay vessel,
Speaker 2: but a literal one.
Speaker 4: So I wondered if you have reflected on sort of
Speaker 4: those beginnings in terms of where you've come to now
Speaker 4: and like what is the relationship, because you're saying you
Speaker 4: prefer the Chinese cosmology, and I totally agree with you.
Speaker 4: The Chinese cosmologies for me is very interesting as well.
Speaker 4: I mean, I am a Chinese, of course it would
Speaker 4: be a I interested but sorry, I'll let you answer,
Speaker 4: But I just know I want if there's a way
Speaker 4: to sort of synthesize those earlier thinking with how you
Speaker 4: where you're at now in your magical or spiritual.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it's such a fantastic fucking question because so there's
Speaker 3: a couple of places that I began my Chinese appropriation journey,
Speaker 3: and one of them is in Sydney's Chinatown. The other
Speaker 3: one because my mother used to have a Benetton store
Speaker 3: for a few years when I was a kid, and
Speaker 3: instead of buying in Italy for the store you would buy.
Speaker 3: Benetton's Southern Hemisphere was run out of Hong Kong, so
Speaker 3: we'd go a couple of times a year to Hong
Speaker 3: Kong so she could do the clothing buying for the store.
Speaker 3: So that's where I bought my first. If you're listening
Speaker 3: to this, I'm like giving extreme air quotes Crystal Ball
Speaker 3: a resin sphere which nevertheless worked. But that's where I
Speaker 3: got my first like Dagger and so on. But to
Speaker 3: answer your question, it's a weird kind of full circle
Speaker 3: because the stuff you would buy in Chinatown in because
Speaker 3: if you're unfamiliar, we're like Sydney's basically it's like thirty
Speaker 3: twenty five thirty percent Chinese. Now like it's in the
Speaker 3: South Pacific, it's an Asian city, so there's it's got
Speaker 3: a huge excellence Chinatown. And you go into these stores,
Speaker 3: these whatever you want to call they're actually usually called
Speaker 3: La Buddhist supply stores and they're not super Buddhist like this.
Speaker 3: This is where the tiger mums come to buy the
Speaker 3: amulets for their feckless sons to make sure they get
Speaker 3: like good maths results like that. If you look at
Speaker 3: you go to the talisman world, it's like, oh, you
Speaker 3: know who your market is. There's like mothers and grandmothers
Speaker 3: coming in to buy shit to like essentially traumatize their
Speaker 3: children into working as much as possible in school and
Speaker 3: music and so on. But what that actually shows is
Speaker 3: and I'm sad with this because we included some itaching
Speaker 3: training as part of the time magic course that I
Speaker 3: taught at the end of last year, when in a
Speaker 3: Chinese context, the eaching is not considered magic. It's just daching,
Speaker 3: and so are these ambulance Like it's just the reality
Speaker 3: you just do these things. We have magic is that
Speaker 3: I've always enjoyed the tension of this magic is like
Speaker 3: a culture specific destination for things that we've rarely been
Speaker 3: allowed to do. And that's not where the rest of
Speaker 3: the world cuts the sandwich on the horizontal rather than diagonal.
Speaker 3: And that's the full circle for me, is that I
Speaker 3: was shopping in these stores where it wasn't even considered magic.
Speaker 3: It's just the thing you did, Like it's like, oh
Speaker 3: you need this charm or this is what you do,
Speaker 3: and it's it's life ways like it's actually been operating
Speaker 3: from your cosmo vision. That's the full circle for me now,
Speaker 3: because it's not something I go and do. It's not
Speaker 3: something necessarily that requires the robes. And it's like in
Speaker 3: Paraguay here with friends like the Kimbunda House I'm associated
Speaker 3: with and so on. It's this is the most Catholic
Speaker 3: country in South America, and the magic stuff is nevertheless normal.
Speaker 3: It's not overt like in Brazil or somewhere in parts
Speaker 3: of Brazil anyway, but it nevertheless in every little part
Speaker 3: of a cincion. You know the medico yana who knows
Speaker 3: the right herbal treatment, you know, the guide to look
Speaker 3: to ask if you've lost something, for him to tell
Speaker 3: you who stole it at like real cunning folks. Stuff
Speaker 3: that's not considered magic because you don't do magic here
Speaker 3: because it's super Catholic. And that's the full circle for me,
Speaker 3: is like I'm just back to it's life rather than magic,
Speaker 3: the doing of these things. And that's what I found
Speaker 3: and resonated with in China Town as a kid, was
Speaker 3: like I was going and looking for impossibly exotic magic
Speaker 3: and they're literally mothers in there just buying talismans for
Speaker 3: their kids' math test and there's no erotic charge to
Speaker 3: that like there was for me. It becomes a practical thing.
Speaker 3: It's just life. It's just like, oh I need we
Speaker 3: need more rice. We're out of milk, and I need
Speaker 3: that talentman, Like it's not you know, off to the
Speaker 3: mind Boddy Spirit Store to talk to some woman named
Speaker 3: Griselda about amethyst, like you just get it.
Speaker 1: I kind of noticed that a little bit with like
Speaker 1: botanicals that was near me. When I lived in different
Speaker 1: parts of New York. You'd walk in there's i don't know,
Speaker 1: like for some people just look like an normal way
Speaker 1: of life, and then you definitely saw like they had
Speaker 1: their section where it was just like like for every lok. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like exactly what you said, traumatizing your kids to try
Speaker 1: to get them to do whatever you want them to do.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of like studying and music talismans
Speaker 3: the last time I was in there, and I'm like, man,
Speaker 3: it just way to live that cliche like the little
Speaker 3: Chinese kid at the piano looking at his friends playing outside.
Speaker 3: The good thing. There's some good therapists and Sydney when
Speaker 3: they actually reach adulthood and have to like we all do,
Speaker 3: have to come to terms with how our parents try
Speaker 3: to live through us. But it was kind of cute,
Speaker 3: Like the last time I was in there would have
Speaker 3: been about I don't know, eight years ago, and I'm like, ah, shit,
Speaker 3: like the weird way of saying it. But the middle
Speaker 3: classification of the Chinese community was you could like archaeologically
Speaker 3: see it because of the change of me was in
Speaker 3: what was available. But yeah, it's just normal life people
Speaker 3: coming in to get stuff and then off they go
Speaker 3: because they were in town buying shoes, visiting the dentist,
Speaker 3: grabbing stuff. And there's a really there's a really beautiful
Speaker 3: and hard one moment from given that we come from
Speaker 3: cultures that Martin Prector would consider to not be intact
Speaker 3: and we're still in them to find fear and satisfaction
Speaker 3: a level of intactness with how you operate in the cosmos.
Speaker 3: So that's my that's the full circle thing for me
Speaker 3: that I've been sitting with the last few months. It's like, Oh,
Speaker 3: it's just life for me now, and that's really good.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 4: I totally agree with you, Gordon, And there was something
Speaker 4: that you said that I found very interesting about sort
Speaker 4: of the transaction that you made there was like an eroticity,
Speaker 4: I think is the word you use. I would have
Speaker 4: used transgressivity, but maybe that's just my perspectible difference than
Speaker 4: you because.
Speaker 2: You're a little bit older than me and practicing a
Speaker 2: lot longer. So do you think that that sort of.
Speaker 4: Will say, single pointedness where you bring the ritual into
Speaker 4: your outer life, like where you're moving through time and
Speaker 4: space with the ritual intentions, but you're not it's not
Speaker 4: you're not doing magic. You're just you're performing sort of
Speaker 4: the goals through your mind, you could say, and then
Speaker 4: to take the transgressivity away. Do you think that that
Speaker 4: is a useful sort of tool or do you think
Speaker 4: that that sort of initial implication, Oh, I'm going to
Speaker 4: do something that's a little bit taboo, a little bit
Speaker 4: against normative society.
Speaker 2: Do you think that that is use or do you
Speaker 2: think that's more useful.
Speaker 3: So I used erotic deliberately because it is that that
Speaker 3: that psychic pull, all that charge, the charge, the difference now,
Speaker 3: and this is where the transgression is. It's not that there.
Speaker 3: It's not that the charge isn't there, it's that it's
Speaker 3: located somewhere different. Because if I'm going in there to
Speaker 3: buy a love charm or a money charm. I'm erotically
Speaker 3: charged by a story of lack. And now when I
Speaker 3: do ceremony or when I do magic, it is a
Speaker 3: process of widening out and opening up to the the
Speaker 3: co creative opportunity of who, which beings wanted to do
Speaker 3: this with me? What where? That's where the erotic charge
Speaker 3: is a contact not with lack, but with like a
Speaker 3: pregnant absence. So that's the that's the subtle difference. It's
Speaker 3: actually called a large difference, but it's it's nevertheless erotic charge.
Speaker 3: It's just that I'm no longer activated by the lack.
Speaker 3: I'm I noticed the chart like I don't like have
Speaker 3: everything I want. It's not that it's that, Oh, the
Speaker 3: charge the story isn't one of like completeness is on
Speaker 3: the other side of solving a lack. It's more like
Speaker 3: what what is this feeling? And to stay with it
Speaker 3: to see what it alchemizes into in conjunction with the
Speaker 3: Spirit team and the cosmos. So that's where ceremony is
Speaker 3: for me. Now that's what I do for traumanic healing
Speaker 3: clients and so on. As we locate with the Spirit team.
Speaker 3: What this charge is seeking to alchemize for and we
Speaker 3: provide the container for it. Like magic is, magic is
Speaker 3: most successful when you get out of its way. And
Speaker 3: at the beginning I was getting in its way. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, when you're twenty, you have no money and
Speaker 3: you definitely don't have enough sex. It's like just just
Speaker 3: I will back the car up, put all the amulets in,
Speaker 3: even the piano ones. You never know, let's get done.
Speaker 3: And yeah. The difference between then and now is where
Speaker 3: that is where I locate the charge and what my
Speaker 3: reaction to it is not to solve it, but to
Speaker 3: what is the right container for this charge? So it alchemizes.
Speaker 3: So that's the that's the game. Now, that's the that's
Speaker 3: the erotic play with the cosmos. Now, okay, that's that's
Speaker 3: so fun. I noticed you're enjoying yerba mate. Is that?
Speaker 3: Am I right on Saturday? But yes, yes, yeah, today,
Speaker 3: Yes it's the same. This is good wine. This one
Speaker 3: is with mint and bouldo.
Speaker 6: Oh oh, I didn't know Saturday it came in different flavor,
Speaker 6: so I thought it was just.
Speaker 1: Here.
Speaker 3: It's big business. There's like cold supermarket asles of it.
Speaker 3: It comes with everything. But I think that the Mint
Speaker 3: and the Bouldo one and then Buldo and Limon is
Speaker 3: the my two favorites. So yes, you get used to
Speaker 3: it and you you miss it. When I'm not in Paraguay,
Speaker 3: I still buy it online, but by the time it
Speaker 3: gets there, it's obviously quite old. Uh and and you
Speaker 3: can tell the difference. And it's just the first thing
Speaker 3: I do whenever I come back is right, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: get some cheat which is like the local baked good
Speaker 3: and ten to day for sure.
Speaker 1: Something I wanted to ask you, uh, kind of getting
Speaker 1: off until like a different topic or question really And
Speaker 1: I figured i'd ask you because you've been around for
Speaker 1: a while, and I would assume like you've probably just
Speaker 1: regardless of having your show and what you do, you've
Speaker 1: paid attention just to social media or you know, people
Speaker 1: anyway online, uh, throughout you doing your show. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons why I even did
Speaker 1: my podcast. Within the conspiracy community, I do think there
Speaker 1: is a huge misunderstanding of magic. Yes, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask, like even in the magical, I would even
Speaker 1: say even from and again I'm not being specific, but
Speaker 1: from when I was in the Oto and a lot
Speaker 1: more amongst other people practicing. I even thought then at
Speaker 1: some point maybe there was a bigness on the kid understanding.
Speaker 1: But throughout this time that you've been doing all this
Speaker 1: and paying attention to just like even people's opinions and
Speaker 1: things online, do you is that your experience as well
Speaker 1: where you do think like even within the magical community,
Speaker 1: and I'll even say the conspiracy community a totally misunderstanding
Speaker 1: of magic and what it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's getting worse. So yeah,
Speaker 3: Like I just did an event with Greg Carlwood of
Speaker 3: the high Side Chats in Florida three weeks ago, and
Speaker 3: I wanted to It was an episode with live event
Speaker 3: and my debrief of it is I think the most
Speaker 3: recent episode depending on when this comes out, but you
Speaker 3: can find it there edmundsup dot com. And I wanted
Speaker 3: to do. I perceived a changing canon in conspiracy Land
Speaker 3: from the nineties Loan Gunman, which is the x L
Speaker 3: spinoff idea of it was originally trying to work out
Speaker 3: what's going on, like how did the world end up
Speaker 3: like this? Like what was the the formation of the
Speaker 3: intelligence world and how did this happen? And what was
Speaker 3: NASA air cover for and all this kind of stuff
Speaker 3: to now is like space is fake. So it's like
Speaker 3: flat Earth, mud flood Tataria stuff, which I'm very cynical
Speaker 3: about for obvious reasons. But like that I look I
Speaker 3: viewed anthropologically as well, what is this change? And Greg
Speaker 3: and I kind of thrashed it out. And the pivot
Speaker 3: is from going from what is going on, like trying
Speaker 3: to solve it with some assumptions about how the world
Speaker 3: works in the twentieth century, not being like this is
Speaker 3: it just a materialism and a sort of scientism is
Speaker 3: taken for granted, And it was instead looking at like, well,
Speaker 3: what are the ancient alien ruins on Mars? And so
Speaker 3: rather than like now we're at space is fake? Right,
Speaker 3: And the pivot is actually psychological so that people have
Speaker 3: encountered the horror or the horrific reality that the universe
Speaker 3: isn't as advertised, not like the world, not like the
Speaker 3: government is lying to me, but that the cosmosism is advertised,
Speaker 3: and there are a lot of people's psychological reactions that
Speaker 3: is to fall back into easy and familiar answers, and
Speaker 3: so underneath things like the flat Earth and so on
Speaker 3: is it's essentially a biblical literalism. And there's the why
Speaker 3: I think the Conspiracy Line was never a super fan
Speaker 3: of magic, because the people who end up in conspiracy
Speaker 3: Land very often are from some like unpleasant church backgrounds.
Speaker 3: So and then they have this confused idea of especially
Speaker 3: when you begin Conspiracy Line, it's like, oh, there's the
Speaker 3: Freemasons and they're the Illuminati, and they're also the same,
Speaker 3: but I also don't like the Pope, but they're against
Speaker 3: each other. But like, and it's just like everyone you
Speaker 3: don't like is just put into this same queer, commie
Speaker 3: jew Illuminati papist.
Speaker 1: Oh I've said that before, that this this dude makes
Speaker 1: more money than me, because you know he's on TV.
Speaker 3: He must the Illuminati. If you don't like the Pope.
Speaker 3: The Illuminati the good guys like that they were they
Speaker 3: were they were pro women, they were pro free education,
Speaker 3: they were pro women's voting, and they were like a
Speaker 3: secret society agitating to transform Europe around these like anti
Speaker 3: Catholic ideals. So like, are they the bad guys? If
Speaker 3: you don't like the prob it's just dumb, right, But
Speaker 3: unfortunately there's so there's always been a deep suspicion, like
Speaker 3: if you do magic, it's like, oh you must have
Speaker 3: like I guess you do spirit cooking on this Epstein's
Speaker 3: island And I'm like, well, I didn't get the invite,
Speaker 3: so like what And it's that's disappointing. Although they're being said.
Speaker 1: So like you don't eat babies for Sunday dinner? Is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying?
Speaker 3: No, I'm vegan, So see there you go.
Speaker 1: All right, So ladies and gentle lady doesn't eat.
Speaker 3: Make out of time, which is a beautifully named word.
Speaker 3: But so the weird thing about that is it will
Speaker 3: still work for people. So having said that, I want
Speaker 3: you to visualize like the Robert Anton Wilson idea of
Speaker 3: the chapel perilous above it. So I came to I
Speaker 3: came to magic first, and then conspiracy. Some people actually
Speaker 3: go the other way. And I will sometimes email me
Speaker 3: when people will. There's a been about five times over
Speaker 3: the last ten or c the years we've been friends
Speaker 3: where he'll just forward me an email going hi Greg,
Speaker 3: thanks for everything. But because of your show, I found
Speaker 3: Gordon and ruin soup and so I'm no longer a
Speaker 3: plus member and I've joined ruined soup and I'm learning magic.
Speaker 3: But thanks for everything. So I've cost him exactly like
Speaker 3: five clients, but the or five plus members. But the
Speaker 3: point is more that people end up in that very
Speaker 3: Robert Anton Wilsonian sense of the chapel perilous of what
Speaker 3: is my relation to the cosmos in general? Like they're
Speaker 3: the power stories that are unfurling around us, are themselves
Speaker 3: contained within some we inevitably have to form metaphysical and
Speaker 3: ontological frameworks to compact to contain the power stories unfurling
Speaker 3: around us. So you stack, and if I mean, as
Speaker 3: long as you can maintain some form of sanity, and
Speaker 3: so far as any of us are saying, you're in
Speaker 3: a chapel perilous moment, permanently there Like you can come
Speaker 3: into that chapel through the road of all the the
Speaker 3: hallway of magic or the whole way of conspiracy. But
Speaker 3: once you're in there, you have to contend with all
Speaker 3: of that and everything else sigh, results and spontaneous healings
Speaker 3: and all the rest of it. That all has to
Speaker 3: be held in that center chapel. And if you do
Speaker 3: it right, dare I say, it doesn't matter too much
Speaker 3: which hallway into the center of that chapel. You came
Speaker 3: down as long as you can keep your sanity. And
Speaker 3: a lot of people on both sides don't. So in
Speaker 3: conspiracy in magic land, they it's it's because people are
Speaker 3: so they psychologically are. So I'm gonna say that differently.
Speaker 3: The psychological need that the identity of magician holds for
Speaker 3: them is so important to the maintenance of their psychic
Speaker 3: integrity that they can't handle the idea, which is nevertheless true,
Speaker 3: like that MK ultra stuff and whatever. There is some
Speaker 3: bad shit that went on the air, and still does
Speaker 3: that went on the edge of magic and they're like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: because I'm some yeah fancy oto fella I. And you
Speaker 3: see people's shadow reactions whether they come to whether it's
Speaker 3: conspiracy people looking at magic or magic people looking at conspiracy.
Speaker 3: Because to entertain the idea that people in power acting
Speaker 3: in their own interest at least even if they're acting
Speaker 3: in yours, requires someone who might be who has that
Speaker 3: idea of being a magician as very important to them.
Speaker 3: That's existential to that identity because it means that you
Speaker 3: don't actually know how the cosmos works. So there's blame
Speaker 3: all around on those sides, and really the only thing
Speaker 3: you can do is find your own way into the
Speaker 3: couple perilous and try and remain sane.
Speaker 5: Right right, I was just going to bring up Robert
Speaker 5: Anton Wilson. I pretty much, you know, in my early
Speaker 5: teens was reading Burroughs and Robert Anton Wilson and getting
Speaker 5: into Discordianism and like. And I think that that chaos,
Speaker 5: like you're saying, basically teaches you to pick things apart
Speaker 5: and it gives you a round your ability to be
Speaker 5: able to look at everything more holistically.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so as well. And I also think
Speaker 3: it's a personality type. So there was a moment about
Speaker 3: ten years ago. I was still in London and my
Speaker 3: best friend was getting married and I was the best
Speaker 3: man of this wedding event. So I was in charge
Speaker 3: of the Stag weekend and we booked out this hotel.
Speaker 3: I booked out the whole whole pub on the South Bank,
Speaker 3: So we had this whole pub to ourselves and we're
Speaker 3: on the roof taking these essentially LSA tablets that I
Speaker 3: got in. So so it was sort of like LSDB
Speaker 3: with a huge body high that no one else enjoyed
Speaker 3: because it's a really intense bodyhead and we were drunk
Speaker 3: via headaches and I loved it. I'd never felt so
Speaker 3: regulated in my life, and it was it was just
Speaker 3: like love crafty and wawling, and I just felt so
Speaker 3: at home and at peace in the chaos of it.
Speaker 3: And wow, I wonder if I could. But this is
Speaker 3: before microdozing. It's like, I wonder if I can just
Speaker 3: like take these every day because selling me about this
Speaker 3: horrifying love crafty and body high was like normalizing for me.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that to be mental. I'm saying
Speaker 3: that this, like some people find, and I think people
Speaker 3: like biologists suit this like the peace of the chaos.
Speaker 3: Like I'm the other My happy place is the middle
Speaker 3: of the Amazon, and it's so loud and so busy
Speaker 3: and so just everything going on around you, and you
Speaker 3: just relax. Brilliant piece exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting that you had mentioned before from from
Speaker 1: my experience, I was actually into conspiracies before I got
Speaker 1: into the occult. There was conspiracies that brought me to
Speaker 1: the occult and and I got very interested in that
Speaker 1: and then just you know, eventually I looked to see
Speaker 1: if there was any like orders or places near me
Speaker 1: that I could get into. And like I had mentioned before,
Speaker 1: I ended up being in the Oto for for a bit,
Speaker 1: and I even remember at times there like I didn't
Speaker 1: bring it up much because like you don't already hear
Speaker 1: like other people have conversations when like sitting there waiting
Speaker 1: to go on the temple. But like I was kind
Speaker 1: of surprised, to be totally honest with you, like how
Speaker 1: it was a thing there that I thought was weird
Speaker 1: that like nobody they all thought, like the idea that
Speaker 1: anybody of importance or even people we don't even know
Speaker 1: who they are, that might be into this stuff and
Speaker 1: have an impact on the world, that just can't happen
Speaker 1: like that, that's that's silliness. And I was just like,
Speaker 1: but like I'm walking into the temple with you, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be in the nastic mess. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: we're bad. I'm just trying to get out, like you
Speaker 1: don't want to admit that this meant to be an
Speaker 1: option for some people, Like.
Speaker 3: Come on, list some of the actual saints in the
Speaker 3: Gnostic Mass. It's like they were doing the stuff talking
Speaker 3: about so in the lineage of the Oto you have
Speaker 3: spide magicians and so on. It's just but this is
Speaker 3: a personality type thing. The people who are attracted to
Speaker 3: and thrive in an order system thrive with a narrative
Speaker 3: of a total explanation like this is how these things work,
Speaker 3: glowing this and you know how they work. This is
Speaker 3: the appeal of Orthodox Christianity now, like they have beautiful, totalizing, inspiring,
Speaker 3: rich explanations. That's horrifying to me. I would much rather
Speaker 3: be out in the jungle. But it's really interesting to
Speaker 3: watch that people. Oh though that can't happen, so I
Speaker 3: can tell you personally, it does. Like you just bump
Speaker 3: up against it everywhere in London when she reached a
Speaker 3: certain level, Like that's just wrong, and it's historically factually incorrect.
Speaker 3: It has been for the second half of the twentieth century.
Speaker 3: But it's you're picking at people's very very important ego identity.
Speaker 3: So you're like it'stantiating their shadow for them at that point,
Speaker 3: which is that not only are they not special, they
Speaker 3: don't know everything, and it's and vice versa, Like that's
Speaker 3: just the game of it. So I have no I
Speaker 3: kind of released all that a long time ago because
Speaker 3: it's a personality type. You can't. It's like trying to
Speaker 3: get your accountant to have fun, and it's like, this
Speaker 3: is not gonna it's the wrong tree.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, before I ask my next question that might
Speaker 1: take a little bit, did anybody want to ask him anything? There?
Speaker 6: I go forgive me for cutting out there when I
Speaker 6: asked you about your mate. I find it's very intuitive
Speaker 6: herb or teeth. Oh absolutely, And it turns out it's
Speaker 6: related to the holly plant. And I'm just wondering if yeah,
Speaker 6: you could just yeah, yeah, I believe it is is
Speaker 6: a holly, which of course is related to well.
Speaker 3: It's a shrug, so yeah, I guess it would be hey, like,
Speaker 3: at least you go far enough. I notice. I So
Speaker 3: it's for people who are unfamiliar. It's actually really caffeinated.
Speaker 3: Like it's it's up there with coffee. So I need
Speaker 3: to remember that because I like coffee in the morning.
Speaker 3: But if I'm if it's a day like this that's
Speaker 3: desk work based, I love having the tailor day there,
Speaker 3: and I just make sure I moderate the morning coffee,
Speaker 3: so you know, too caffeinated. But the reason I'm mentioning
Speaker 3: that is that it absolutely hits different from a plant
Speaker 3: ally perspective, and it's a for the what I need,
Speaker 3: so like the native people of a decent chunk of
Speaker 3: Paraguay and going out in that direction towards the coast
Speaker 3: in Brazil. It's like a master plant. So it's it's
Speaker 3: like a funnily enough speaking Polly, it's like an all
Speaker 3: heel master plant that is used in conjunction with other
Speaker 3: parts of their herb blore so medical and Nanna is
Speaker 3: like the that's the word I need term for what
Speaker 3: na is. Medico is obviously Spanish, but Yanna is plant spirit.
Speaker 3: So medico you're na is like plant spirit doctrm right,
Speaker 3: And it's usually it's the old grandmother at the market
Speaker 3: who knows what combination of things to do. There's a
Speaker 3: whole language of to day and its use medicinally, but
Speaker 3: also in so far as this is different culturally. And
Speaker 3: I find that that the creative, the gentle creative co
Speaker 3: pilot that it offers to long work sessions if it's
Speaker 3: writing or planning a course or something is really really
Speaker 3: good and it's just I get when you're here Paraguay,
Speaker 3: I think it's the second or third chorus country in
Speaker 3: South America, so they don't have a lot of money,
Speaker 3: and that's one reason why they just kind of like
Speaker 3: sitting under trees drinking teller ag. And it's also kind
Speaker 3: of fucking awesome. It's really hot here and it's just
Speaker 3: awesome to just sit there silently just with this plant
Speaker 3: and your thoughts and the world. And it's not psychoactive
Speaker 3: or anything. I mean, technically it is because it's got
Speaker 3: caffeine in it, but it's it's recommended, I tell you
Speaker 3: what it's. It's a recommended plan, and you open the
Speaker 3: the implications or the doors of it in combination, because
Speaker 3: that's it's like to be a master plan, is one
Speaker 3: that's like teaching and useful in combinations, and there's all
Speaker 3: these Saint law around it. The way you work it
Speaker 3: here is that you'll put the herb in the quampa.
Speaker 3: This is called a quampa, and you fill it up
Speaker 3: about a third of the way, and then you put
Speaker 3: the water in, and then you say, Saint Thomas drinks first,
Speaker 3: because it obviously the plant absorbs the water and it
Speaker 3: sort of comes down and you wait a couple of minutes,
Speaker 3: and then you put additional water in and go there.
Speaker 3: But the whole ceremony of it is to offer Saint
Speaker 3: Thomas the first drink. So this is huge, Like I
Speaker 3: love it. I love the whole the language of it,
Speaker 3: and it's interesting to be able to find how that's universal.
Speaker 3: We did comparison wrong in the nineteenth century. Obviously in
Speaker 3: the twenty first century it's and I used Tyson youngker
Speaker 3: Porter for this. In the nineteenth century, we were looking
Speaker 3: for the products of thought and comparing them. So the
Speaker 3: example would be you looking around the world for other
Speaker 3: cultures that have a plant that they offer to Saint Thomas,
Speaker 3: and you don't find it, But if you look for
Speaker 3: the way of thinking, you find it everywhere, which is
Speaker 3: the the the inclusion of a lineage of beings, including
Speaker 3: plant beings, into the ceremony of incorporation. That's a universal
Speaker 3: So it's really fun being in the particular of like
Speaker 3: a Paraguayan plant milieu and understanding it's it's universality at
Speaker 3: the at the right level. But it's also just delicious
Speaker 3: and as you say, like a really good, really good
Speaker 3: creative co pilot.
Speaker 6: I'm so glad that I asked that that was a
Speaker 6: beautiful story on yerba and bringing it into the universalist
Speaker 6: kind of perception.
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Uh oh, did you want to ask something else or
Speaker 1: anybody else? I want something, I have.
Speaker 2: A quick one if it's okay.
Speaker 4: Okay, So, Gordon, that was really great.
Speaker 2: Do you have I know you've had.
Speaker 4: Shows on your showre Andsuit in the past about Sorcerer's
Speaker 4: Saints and Saint cyprian Or, and then there's the Skinless
Speaker 4: sat from Portugal.
Speaker 2: I've listened to all those shows, probably several times.
Speaker 4: But I was wondering if there is any particular Saint
Speaker 4: maur in Paraguay that you're currently interested in.
Speaker 3: That's a great question. If you're after well St. Thomas
Speaker 3: is one of them, but if you're after the like
Speaker 3: the more intense ones. So there is a there's a
Speaker 3: Santae here rather than a Santae who is a Jesuit
Speaker 3: priest who was down in the down the south near
Speaker 3: in Fannasion and he was murdered by spear by some
Speaker 3: of the locals. I think they will wear any and
Speaker 3: buried and they could hear him laughing afterwards. And so
Speaker 3: there's a Santa Muerte saint tradition here that's I've been around,
Speaker 3: at least for now as part of because it's the
Speaker 3: Kimbunda stuff is obviously an import from Brazil, but it's
Speaker 3: it's hit the same kind of magical communities here. So
Speaker 3: there's there. And uh, there's a BVM, a lady of Kakoupe,
Speaker 3: which is one of my favorite forms of the BVM here.
Speaker 3: So there's that's like the main cathedral in was outside
Speaker 3: of Asuncion, and she's a plant spirit. So there is
Speaker 3: a The story of this BVM is another native wasn't
Speaker 3: where I need. It's another tribe I can't remember. Was
Speaker 3: fleeing from people who are trying to kill him, and
Speaker 3: he hid behind a tree and they saw him and
Speaker 3: the tree enveloped him and kept him there, and that
Speaker 3: was the BVM. And that log is still like in
Speaker 3: the cathedral. So there the the the patron mother I
Speaker 3: guess of Paraguay is a native tree spirit, like when
Speaker 3: you speak the language of the thing, you're like, oh.
Speaker 3: Also the patron BVM of Paraguay is a Paraguay and
Speaker 3: tree spirit and they have annual pilgrimages out to the
Speaker 3: cathedral for it's one of the it's one of the
Speaker 3: Marrion feasts. It's one of the December Marian but it's
Speaker 3: really cool. So there's a bunch of that stuff here.
Speaker 3: And they also have for people in the more encrypted
Speaker 3: conspiracy land, they essentially have their own bigfoot up country
Speaker 3: in the jungle, so they have like a hairy ape
Speaker 3: man style encryptid being as well. So there's all kinds
Speaker 3: of cool stuff, really great.
Speaker 4: I just wanted to point out, since you brought up
Speaker 4: so much herb Blower Gordon, it was that Paraguay is
Speaker 4: one of the only countries I'm sure you know this
Speaker 4: that has the grunny Jesuit herbals still intact that survived
Speaker 4: the various Dominican book burnings or whatever that was.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting to me because then you're.
Speaker 4: Also talking about like grammars of the herbs, like the
Speaker 4: ways they go together, because I heard you say Buldo, Well,
Speaker 4: I'm very familiar with that herb and like so I
Speaker 4: would understand that in maybe a magical or maybe a
Speaker 4: folk herbal contexts, and maybe that even though I'm never
Speaker 4: been to Paraguay, I don't know that much about it,
Speaker 4: but maybe there is a way that I could sort
Speaker 4: of put it together, make that grammar kind of makes
Speaker 4: sense from an outside perspective, do you think that that Okay.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, you definitely could you. You just have to
Speaker 3: find the level when you do comparison. You have to
Speaker 3: find the level at which things are comparable without being diminished.
Speaker 3: And that was the nineteenth century era, so we used
Speaker 3: the products of thought, ways of thinking example earlier. And
Speaker 3: you also have to find your legitimate way in and
Speaker 3: and not in identity politics like you have to stand
Speaker 3: back and let other people talk sense, but more like, okay,
Speaker 3: so you you have contained within your life and your
Speaker 3: body and understanding of the plant kingdom. From a historical
Speaker 3: and herbal's perspective, I come out of these days anyway,
Speaker 3: more from a shamanic plant, a gentic plant, ally plant companion.
Speaker 3: So I'm interested in the fact that you're familiar with bulldo.
Speaker 3: I'm interested in that from the Boulder perspective, because there
Speaker 3: it's really interesting to be somewhere like Manila and see
Speaker 3: dried bulldough on the shelves. And so you're a long
Speaker 3: way I mean, I'm a long way from home, but
Speaker 3: you're a long way from home, my little friend. But
Speaker 3: I can get it fresh at the supermarket on the corner, obviously,
Speaker 3: and I'm really interested in the agentic combinations when we
Speaker 3: because underneath your question is this notion of well, what
Speaker 3: is my legitimate access to this information? And too often
Speaker 3: this is coming back to how I do magic now.
Speaker 3: Too often we assume that the human agency is the
Speaker 3: only one involved, and the most important thing you can
Speaker 3: do to level up your magic is to widen out
Speaker 3: that agency. Bio Koma Lafe talks about that with politics
Speaker 3: of post activism and so on, which is like to
Speaker 3: be in this world in twenty twenty five, to be
Speaker 3: not most human exactly, but where we are are in
Speaker 3: this moment is to recognize that human agency is and
Speaker 3: the only agency going on, And so there's there's an
Speaker 3: initial sense making and relating that begins to it. So
Speaker 3: that's my answer to you. It's like, how how am
Speaker 3: I in relation with these beings and thought beings in
Speaker 3: a way that is fruitful and beneficial for us both?
Speaker 3: So yes, absolutely, there's there's there's legitimate fun ways in
Speaker 3: that don't require you to have to do like I
Speaker 3: don't know, like a BioMed degree and spend five years
Speaker 3: in the Chaco like embedded in a native community. No,
Speaker 3: there's there's like that that would be amazing, But there
Speaker 3: are other find the level that you are legitimately in
Speaker 3: relation to these beings that we're talking about, and that's
Speaker 3: for me how I do comparison. It's like, what is
Speaker 3: the thing where can I stand true so that I'm
Speaker 3: not you don't fall into the shadow rejection track where
Speaker 3: we're talking about with different magicians and so on. And
Speaker 3: it also means everyone's different. And also it opens up
Speaker 3: like what is what am I to Buldo and what
Speaker 3: is Buldo to me? And I love that. I love
Speaker 3: the polyvalence that comes from I guess that animist approach
Speaker 3: to magic.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. I did want to ask I
Speaker 1: didn't want to ask you this. I mean, you're just
Speaker 1: saying stuff that made me think of like three other questions.
Speaker 1: But I kind of do want to go back to this,
Speaker 1: this idea, original idea that I might have to talk about.
Speaker 1: It kind of goes a little bit more again with
Speaker 1: going back to maybe like misconceptions, but I think it's
Speaker 1: more a little bit more misunderstood in the conspiracy community.
Speaker 1: From your understanding and from your I guess practices or
Speaker 1: whatever you've done throughout your career. What is chaos magic
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 3: It's almost like that Atlanta idea. So chaos magic is
Speaker 3: it is is permanent epistemological and ontological humility in practice.
Speaker 3: So that's very very good and it's very very bad.
Speaker 3: It's very very good because it means you don't end
Speaker 3: up with the same you get less of the demented
Speaker 3: ego inflation that you sometimes get more in that ohto
Speaker 3: Filema area. But so that's good. But by the same token,
Speaker 3: the the hyperfixation on practical results above all else is
Speaker 3: it is philosophically naive because that that prioritizes the physical,
Speaker 3: which doesn't even really exist anyway, right, So it's immensely
Speaker 3: powerful but flawed. Like Glenn Close, I don't know, like
Speaker 3: it's that. That's what chaos magic is for me. It's
Speaker 3: like an epistemic humility that will will trip you up
Speaker 3: differently to something like the Lima, I guess, but it's
Speaker 3: it's for me. It's been very powerful, but I was
Speaker 3: able to solve the solve the peak Carrol in particular's
Speaker 3: prioritization of the material by moving in an animist, modest
Speaker 3: direction and allowing for results to or outcomes. It's better
Speaker 3: than results shifting from results to outcomes is maybe even
Speaker 3: how I would say it, so that the outcomes of
Speaker 3: ceremony are unpredictable and can involve very well, at the
Speaker 3: very least, they involve the imaginal. They also might involve
Speaker 3: I don't know uplay rise, but for me, that's chaos magic,
Speaker 3: it's a it's an epistemic ontological humility put into practice.
Speaker 2: Sorry, Nick, I have a follow up for you, Forden.
Speaker 4: You were one of the first people, I think to
Speaker 4: really discuss this idea of like animism, regional animism, and
Speaker 4: maybe this practice of geo georelational ontology with the spirits
Speaker 4: that you live with, local spirits that you live with,
Speaker 4: like understanding who they are and what they are and
Speaker 4: what they can receive or what they would like to receive,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. So to go back to this question,
Speaker 4: maybe that is do you think that that is what
Speaker 4: the draw towards this kind of animism is for you?
Speaker 4: You're saying you want to put the ontology or the
Speaker 4: ontological practice, the practice into the world, so that that
Speaker 4: would mean that you have a reciprocal relationship.
Speaker 2: Is that is that correct in my sort of thinking
Speaker 2: about things?
Speaker 3: So I know you, it makes it sound more intentional
Speaker 3: than it was. I know what you're getting, but it's
Speaker 3: I found two is why I wrote animistic. I found
Speaker 3: two things in the term animism. The first is a
Speaker 3: sense of like, this is actually how I've experienced the
Speaker 3: cosmos since I was a kid, and I think it
Speaker 3: is the most philosophically valid home base for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: That's the first part of it. And the second part
Speaker 3: was that the charge is still there around this term,
Speaker 3: which was part of that nineteenth century category error, because
Speaker 3: animism is a term that white people used for brown
Speaker 3: people when describing their primitive theory of mind, the idea
Speaker 3: that they couldn't tell the difference between dreams and awake
Speaker 3: and trees and dreams, and like the ultimate plot twist
Speaker 3: in that is like that was the nineteenth century Europeans era,
Speaker 3: like they actually they got their philosophy of mine was
Speaker 3: the most naive ever conceived of which was that it
Speaker 3: basically doesn't exist except for brain chemistry. So there's still
Speaker 3: charge around and for me around actually using the term
Speaker 3: animism with the understanding that it's it's a charged term.
Speaker 3: When I was writing the book, I was in the
Speaker 3: state Library in Sydney in New South Wales. I was
Speaker 3: talking to one of the Aboriginal curators there anything, what
Speaker 3: are you writing around? And I said this, it's animism.
Speaker 3: He's like, why, it's a really good poet, like, we
Speaker 3: don't use that term. And I'm like, I know, that's
Speaker 3: actually why I'm writing the book. That's like, we don't
Speaker 3: use that term. I'm like, yeah, but it's still in
Speaker 3: the field, like I'm not using it for you. I'm
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in it until it no longer has charge.
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh, okay, Like it's That's the duel
Speaker 3: thing for me is that in this term, I found
Speaker 3: how I experienced the cosmos as a community of beings
Speaker 3: and have since I was a kid. And if people
Speaker 3: are honest, they're like, oh, yeah, I can pretty much agree,
Speaker 3: like I might, you might be a dual aspect moniest,
Speaker 3: you might be you know, I don't even really care, right,
Speaker 3: but it's how I experienced the cosmos and it's a
Speaker 3: place for me to currently situate that still has fruitful charge.
Speaker 3: So that's why. And I think both of them, especially
Speaker 3: the first bit, has been very validating over the last
Speaker 3: decade or so for other people in magic land to
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, I don't this is oversimplifying, but when
Speaker 3: you go from when you look across the twentieth century,
Speaker 3: magic and astrology had to hide in psychology, which was
Speaker 3: fine because psychology was pretty fucking metal at the beginning,
Speaker 3: like at the Jung Well I thought of the way
Speaker 3: through like with Jung and so on. But then there
Speaker 3: was this seventy year period that you know, corresponded to
Speaker 3: peak American modernist capitalist confidence, where it had to be
Speaker 3: personality tests and just and so the twenty first century
Speaker 3: was about finding how we that's not that jars with
Speaker 3: the experience, and we can be grateful for them for
Speaker 3: like carrying the fire over the mountain to where we are.
Speaker 3: But animism allows that horizontal comparison, which has been a
Speaker 3: big part of the Grimoire revival and the Scarlet Imprint
Speaker 3: project and so on. It's to be able to horizontally
Speaker 3: look at European magical traditions in the context of non
Speaker 3: European magical traditions and not to appropriate, but to be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: actually we all have stuff like this, and it's that
Speaker 3: we all have stuff like this level of magic that's
Speaker 3: very validating and fruitful because it's still yielding connections and outcomes.
Speaker 3: So that's my long answer to what I knew what
Speaker 3: you're kind of getting there, like I knew what you
Speaker 3: meant with it. But animism is half me and half
Speaker 3: the cosmosis community of beings, and it's still doing its work.
Speaker 3: We won't use the term in fifty years time, like
Speaker 3: it's not This isn't a solve. This is an alchemization
Speaker 3: of some stuff that we It's funny, like you look
Speaker 3: back in time and go, oh, well, maybe we should
Speaker 3: not have quote unquote we should not have done nineteenth
Speaker 3: century stuff one hundred percent. But by the same token,
Speaker 3: if we hadn't, we wouldn't be alchemizing it now. And
Speaker 3: maybe it alchemizes into something that is necessary in one
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years time. My shamanic healing teacher, doctor
Speaker 3: Alberto Foldo, his care O teachers said that about the conquest,
Speaker 3: so actually about the arrival of the Spanish that destroyed
Speaker 3: Peru and South America. But like they said, well, maybe
Speaker 3: even this disaster will I'm using my term for alchemized,
Speaker 3: but even this disaster is ultimately alchemizing towards greater outcomes.
Speaker 3: And if that hadn't happened, the greater outcomes wouldn't have
Speaker 3: And we're still in that alchemizing moment of decharging but
Speaker 3: expressing and alchemizing the charge of the nineteenth century eras
Speaker 3: I think in theories of mind and politics and so on,
Speaker 3: and they're still playing out in really fruitful ways in
Speaker 3: the right hands in magic.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Gordon, the sorry Nika my last one, I promise,
Speaker 4: oh so thank you for clarifying my sort of I
Speaker 4: guess amalgamated question.
Speaker 2: And yes, that was a perfect answer for it.
Speaker 4: And I wanted to sort of follow up with the
Speaker 4: idea that do you I detect a futurist kind of
Speaker 4: tone and what you're saying like a sort of predu
Speaker 4: like you're saying that there's potentiality here, there's possibility. Let's
Speaker 4: look to the future. I'm I'm I'm with you on that.
Speaker 4: I'm like, let's not be stuck in you know, childlar,
Speaker 4: but also let's pay homage to like what came before
Speaker 4: and understand the relationality between the systems. I think that's
Speaker 4: but are you are you saying, Gordon, that there's a
Speaker 4: few first element to magic or perhaps a meta political
Speaker 4: implication to what you're doing.
Speaker 3: So I just taught a six month course on time
Speaker 3: magic and the future is also so yes, except I
Speaker 3: guess I would bring a bit of trouble to the
Speaker 3: definition of the future. But so let me say differently.
Speaker 3: The goal of the Run Soup project is I joke
Speaker 3: with the premium members is they're all compost because I
Speaker 3: want whatever us, the West whatever, to have a more intact,
Speaker 3: magical culture for the kids that are drawn to it
Speaker 3: in twenty one hundred. And there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 3: that we need to alchemize before that. And it's not
Speaker 3: about knowing like, oh, we should put some time capitals
Speaker 3: in place so that they know to learn these things
Speaker 3: about fucking chakras or archangels or whatever. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: you authentically relate to our lineage because it's funny, like,
Speaker 3: how do we contain and become custodians for ancestry and
Speaker 3: tradition in a way that isn't lapping because the lapping
Speaker 3: comes from that psychological need that I mentioned before, like
Speaker 3: the belongingness. I have a podcast episode of about a
Speaker 3: month or so ago called You're Not Ready Till You're Ready.
Speaker 3: When it comes to magic, and part of that is
Speaker 3: the squeamishness amongst let's say, lodge magicians around the so
Speaker 3: called New Age is hilarious to me because Crowley's book
Speaker 3: four is the New Age. It's fucking yoga postures and
Speaker 3: chakras and the itching and shit like, it's all the
Speaker 3: worst mind body spirit stuff. But the people who find
Speaker 3: that now have the psychological need of like, oh, I'm
Speaker 3: doing real magic. I'm like it has to look like
Speaker 3: some drawing room at Lancaster Gate in the eighteen nineties.
Speaker 3: And that's still that's an improper way I think of
Speaker 3: containing and being custodian for lineage and tradition, and we're
Speaker 3: still thrashing that out. And part of that is being
Speaker 3: present rather than looking in the future and so on.
Speaker 3: It's we birth that future by represencing rather than the
Speaker 3: whole nineteenth cent. Like my frustration with a large approach
Speaker 3: from the eighteen nineties, let's say, is that like, oh,
Speaker 3: we'll bundle up the world's information and will grit it
Speaker 3: and you start here like an eighteen hundredth factory, and
Speaker 3: then you move here and once you're here, you know
Speaker 3: everything about how the cosmos work, and like so the
Speaker 3: cosmos is fixed, and that's speaking of Chinese. It's very Unchinese.
Speaker 3: The cosmos isn't complete. The cosmos is working things out,
Speaker 3: it's flowing. So there's a that's a powerful shift that
Speaker 3: the West so called isn't good at a call to represencing.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't mean we all just go and become
Speaker 3: like Taoist alchemists, right, it means we part of the
Speaker 3: process of presencing is like, well, how do we move
Speaker 3: into a healthy relationship with time as a community of beings?
Speaker 3: And that's like what I have to say to say,
Speaker 3: I agree with you that there is part of this
Speaker 3: project and it's for me it's perma culture. I'm a
Speaker 3: perma culture designer as well. Like your job is soil.
Speaker 3: Everything else the Cosmo's does, and it's kind of like that,
Speaker 3: fix the fucking soil, and if you leave it for
Speaker 3: a few hundred years, you will have like a peak
Speaker 3: old growth forest because it's just what the cosmos does,
Speaker 3: like you don't need to know, will put this oak
Speaker 3: tree here, and we'll put this one here, and like no, no, no,
Speaker 3: like outsource to the divine intelligence, that kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: and where in magic we're not good at that because
Speaker 3: we come to it to solve or fill those psychological gaps,
Speaker 3: these psychological needs like oh I need to be smart.
Speaker 3: I mean I need the tree over there, Like do
Speaker 3: you wizit need come from? Let's use magic to explore
Speaker 3: what that's trying to do. So, yes, there's definitely a
Speaker 3: futureist component to it, but only if I can say
Speaker 3: it in that lung and animalst way. Apologies, that was great.
Speaker 6: It reminds me as you describe that, it kind of
Speaker 6: reminds me of Wu Way in magic practice. You're you
Speaker 6: are integrating the Wu Way idea into your practice, and
Speaker 6: I wonder if you talk on that. And also another
Speaker 6: personal question, besides your drinking of yerba, maybe you have
Speaker 6: some tai chi or chigung practices that you utilize you
Speaker 6: want to share.
Speaker 3: Not so much so for my shamanic healing lineage, there is.
Speaker 3: It's well, it's a three energy center and ian system,
Speaker 3: but also in a clinical setting it'so chakra system. So
Speaker 3: there's definitely energy work and body work and dietary requirements
Speaker 3: on days before. I don't drink that much anymore anyway,
Speaker 3: but like there's no drinking before client days. And this
Speaker 3: is why I'm plant based and all the rest of it,
Speaker 3: So there's an energetic component to it. But so speaking
Speaker 3: of Donna, Alberta or his teachers would say, like your
Speaker 3: principal role is to open sacred space and get out
Speaker 3: of the way. I have an angel course as part
Speaker 3: of the premium membership as well. Then if you think
Speaker 3: about jumping up to the level of what is a
Speaker 3: universal about angel magic, going from Enoch through d through
Speaker 3: the Hiptameron to Dorian virtue, Like what is the universal here?
Speaker 3: And the universal is the calling in the universal is
Speaker 3: it is part of the human relation to the cosmos,
Speaker 3: the charge to pray for Don Alberto says like he's
Speaker 3: big on he ran a brain lab like at the
Speaker 3: age of twenty five at Berkeley and whatever. So he's
Speaker 3: a medical anthropologist who's very interested in dietary change. And
Speaker 3: when people ask him, like what's the single best immediate
Speaker 3: dietary intervention you can make, and he says, bless your food.
Speaker 3: So there is That's my answer to the wu wee
Speaker 3: thing is we don't need to incorporate East Asian versions
Speaker 3: of something that's actually it's there in an angelic tradition,
Speaker 3: like it's your job is to because this is the universe.
Speaker 3: A relation of the universe is essentially governed on something
Speaker 3: kind of like consent, which is the aspect of God
Speaker 3: that is you, calls the aspect of God that isn't
Speaker 3: you as part of that completion of creation. And that's
Speaker 3: the what I mean by outsourcing divine intelligence. And we're
Speaker 3: not good at that. We're not good at that because
Speaker 3: it doesn't it with the post Enlightenment materialist capitalist cosmology
Speaker 3: of a fixed universe with quantifiable known things that humans
Speaker 3: can know because no one else in the cosmos has mind.
Speaker 3: So that's the bit. That's how it is for me
Speaker 3: from a opening up perspective. Now energetically, yes, the thing
Speaker 3: is and I know I know this from having clients
Speaker 3: traumatic healing clients. I'd love to be able to say
Speaker 3: there are some universals like oh, you need to be
Speaker 3: doing everyone needs to eat this way, everyone needs to
Speaker 3: take these herbs or do these breathing exercises. It's a
Speaker 3: universe where that is true. Is not a universe in
Speaker 3: flow that's working things out. It's a universe that has
Speaker 3: universal categories. This is what a human requires to human
Speaker 3: and that's never that's not been my experience so far
Speaker 3: in it, so like we can kind of say, and
Speaker 3: even this you think about, you could technically think of
Speaker 3: examples to the counter like oh, everyone needs body movement
Speaker 3: and this is true, like body movement, adequate nutrition, adequate water.
Speaker 3: But what that looks like for people is different on
Speaker 3: on on every level. And that's the that's where we
Speaker 3: kind of like, yeah, that's the that's the universal It's like, okay,
Speaker 3: and you recommend a specific energetic exercise to everyone, not
Speaker 3: really like it's really interesting, Like it's a it's it's
Speaker 3: it's new. It's it's new to to to work out
Speaker 3: the limits of what you can say. And it doesn't
Speaker 3: mean you don't say anything. It means you say the
Speaker 3: right kind of universal thing. I don't know if that
Speaker 3: makes sense.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, thank you, thank you for sharing that. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's it reminds me too as you're as you're speaking,
Speaker 6: it's almost like the grammar logic rhetoric phase of magic,
Speaker 6: where you have to have your understanding of the soil
Speaker 6: and then things more easily are communicated and understood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's contained in the Grimore tradition. The Grimore
Speaker 3: tradition is a tradition of discovery. Right, So instead of
Speaker 3: inheriting a ufo like a flying sauce, you get the
Speaker 3: blueprints to build one. The grimoire is just plugging the
Speaker 3: phone in and getting the phone call and in the
Speaker 3: and the in traditions, when you get given the rights,
Speaker 3: they're given to you as seeds that grows this notion
Speaker 3: of a maru. And that's how if like most people
Speaker 3: know this, but some of the despatch of offerings like
Speaker 3: Lama fetus is and so on, are designed when they're
Speaker 3: buried so that that lama grows in the spirit world. Right,
Speaker 3: So it's this idea of the most magical traditions are
Speaker 3: contact events. That's the soil, right. So you need to
Speaker 3: know how to plug the phone in, but then it's
Speaker 3: up to you. And that's the bit that I think
Speaker 3: we we're quite squeamish about those next steps, one because
Speaker 3: not that many people do it, but two you end
Speaker 3: up we dismiss it as upg and that's not quite right.
Speaker 3: It's this is what happened when what happened when I
Speaker 3: picked up the phone. You should see what happened when
Speaker 3: you picked up the phone. We're not good at asserting
Speaker 3: the reality. We're not good at asserting realities unless we
Speaker 3: make them universal, and that's not what you find outside
Speaker 3: of the West, like the premiscy of dreams and the
Speaker 3: understanding that people's so called inner or imaginal experiences are
Speaker 3: totally ontologically valid but related to them. We struggle with that.
Speaker 3: We struggle with the idea of personal means delusion like
Speaker 3: upg and it's like, that's not it. But by the
Speaker 3: same token, the spirit contact I have has no bearing
Speaker 3: on your spirit contact. And that's something that I hope
Speaker 3: we alchemize over the next decade or so, Like what
Speaker 3: does what does it look like when we quote unquote
Speaker 3: in the West return to a more Shapibo understanding of
Speaker 3: spirits and dream experiences and signs importance and all of that,
Speaker 3: because there's a there's an ontology to it that they
Speaker 3: have that looks like what I think we're missing. And
Speaker 3: I don't mean we learn it from them. I mean
Speaker 3: like we just need to open that sacred space and
Speaker 3: get out of the way and see how it looks
Speaker 3: for us to have that return. This is kind of
Speaker 3: that everyone's compost to me because I don't know what
Speaker 3: that looks like, but I know we have to do
Speaker 3: that for the kids of twenty one hundred.
Speaker 6: I guess it's very interesting too, be remarked on kind
Speaker 6: of the collective consciousness and so forth, And to what
Speaker 6: you're saying now, isn't it funny how many people are
Speaker 6: presenting the ideal diet that everyone should beyond, whether it's
Speaker 6: steak and eggs or some other thing. But it's like
Speaker 6: that might work for you, but that definitely does not
Speaker 6: work for any number of people, let alone everyone.
Speaker 3: And the truth claims on both sides rely on us
Speaker 3: having an accurate view of history, which is also wrong.
Speaker 3: So like the more carnivose side of things like this
Speaker 3: is how our ancestors say it, like you're doing a
Speaker 3: materialist time thing for a start, and second of all,
Speaker 3: like that's delusional because like it's just it's a historical
Speaker 3: to say that. And also they were not eating cows
Speaker 3: that were eighty percent saturated fat. Similarly the same thing
Speaker 3: on the plant based side. It's like you've just this
Speaker 3: gambit relies on us finally getting history correct, and in
Speaker 3: our view of history being accurate, that's I'm not going
Speaker 3: to play that game and anythink that's right, and it's
Speaker 3: instead it's like how do you we have healing systems
Speaker 3: that are like this, right, so we have them an
Speaker 3: indigenous content, even to some extent in Chinese contexts where
Speaker 3: a diagnosis isn't really used the practitioner and treats the patient,
Speaker 3: not a symptom or a name for a process that
Speaker 3: the body's going through in response to certain environmental conditions.
Speaker 3: And we have a whole book of them. Alberto says
Speaker 3: that like we've in the West, we have eighteen hundred
Speaker 3: diseases in the Andes or in the Amazon, there's one
Speaker 3: right like are you in relation or are you out
Speaker 3: of relationship? And that's that's the universal And it looked
Speaker 3: it hits different for every person.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Uh, something I did want to bring up.
Speaker 1: It was just something that you had said about book
Speaker 1: for Crawley in the New Age. Do you think he
Speaker 1: might have even have influenced that more with his connection
Speaker 1: to Gerald, Gardner and Wicker.
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean you can. You can do like lineages
Speaker 3: of of where that stuff shows up. And obviously so
Speaker 3: Peter Grays done the the scientology line right, so it
Speaker 3: goes Crawley, Jack Parson, scientology and Wicker Where is most expensive,
Speaker 3: most successful rather outcomes right, like the OTO to some
Speaker 3: extent is a we can use a Elon Musk term
Speaker 3: like a bootloader, right, And so assessing Crowley's impact, it's
Speaker 3: coming back to that idea of like what are you measuring?
Speaker 3: This is history. History is a game of history by
Speaker 3: definition is materialists, like you need material culture and text
Speaker 3: and you need to be able to make connections between
Speaker 3: text with us, not how reality works. So you can
Speaker 3: look at the I mean, scientology is in the process
Speaker 3: of failing, but it had a pretty good run and
Speaker 3: I had a lot of money, had a pretty wild run,
Speaker 3: and it wouldn't exist were it not for like Crawley
Speaker 3: being upstream from it. And this is to your point
Speaker 3: earlier about conspiracies getting all this stuff wrong. It's like, ah,
Speaker 3: that makes it blah blah blah. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: know satanic or child killing or whatever. It's like, no,
Speaker 3: that's not a flow model. That's not how like thought
Speaker 3: beings are in relation to us, in relation to time.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I mean he has here's that kind
Speaker 3: of influence. But it's always been really funny to me
Speaker 3: that if you break down the material in the Lodge system,
Speaker 3: it's angels. So Enochian. It's chakras and yoga, it's tarot cards.
Speaker 3: What this is, it's just doing virtue. This is mind
Speaker 3: buddy spirit. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I was
Speaker 3: in her. I know she went crazy and moved to
Speaker 3: Hawaii or whatever, but I was in her first graduating
Speaker 3: con so I know even Like my point is the opposite,
Speaker 3: which is that all these people who think this stuff
Speaker 3: is mental, let's say, what are you talking about? He
Speaker 3: had neopagan gods and angels and chakras and yoga, what like,
Speaker 3: that's my mom's friends. What's happening here? And that's that's
Speaker 3: to bring the invitation. Like oh, if that hits something
Speaker 3: and he's like, oh that annoys me, It's like, okay,
Speaker 3: why does that annoy me? Because I need it to
Speaker 3: be different because I need to feel like a super
Speaker 3: special magician that's different to what all the other people
Speaker 3: are doing. Why do you need that? Oh well, because
Speaker 3: like in childhood, like that's the invitation to go in.
Speaker 3: That's actually the work. Like that's why I say it
Speaker 3: to people, like it's not just to be irritating. What
Speaker 3: it is. It's literally to be irritating, but it's tactically irritating,
Speaker 3: Like what about this irritates you go and find that
Speaker 3: because that's the that's the thing that's calling to be alchemized.
Speaker 1: Very well said, very well said right there. I do
Speaker 1: even think I think people doing that what you said
Speaker 1: right there is actually a misconception with magic where I
Speaker 1: don't even think a lot of people even realize that
Speaker 1: that's what some magicians are actually doing.
Speaker 3: It's what I was doing. I mean when I was
Speaker 3: a kid, like I was there, like I was really
Speaker 3: it took me. I was so into the identity of
Speaker 3: being like a nineties chaos magician as a kid that
Speaker 3: it took I thought that that was a source of
Speaker 3: my difference. And it took me to like seventeen to
Speaker 3: work at half I'm gay. God damn it. They go
Speaker 3: friends and shit, I thought my I thought, like being
Speaker 3: interested in guys was this cool, like chaos magic, fucking
Speaker 3: you know, I don't do category thing. And with my
Speaker 3: ex girlfriend's like, no, that's not it, I'm like, ah, shit,
Speaker 3: Like I was into it. It was a really important
Speaker 3: part of my identity building to find specialness in chaos
Speaker 3: magic rather than slima or whatever. But it doesn't matter
Speaker 3: it's just a different brand. It was super important to
Speaker 3: me for a long time, and I honor that, and
Speaker 3: that's what I mean. That's why the actual podcast episode
Speaker 3: is called You're not Ready Till You're Ready. It's not
Speaker 3: to call people wrong, and I wasn't wrong. I was
Speaker 3: in the process of healing something like. It's not a
Speaker 3: right and wrong decision, it's that's that was absolutely the
Speaker 3: right identity formation to adopt for the conditions that I
Speaker 3: was in. And that's how it always that's a real
Speaker 3: Gubble Marte thing, like when he looks at people who
Speaker 3: have you know, homeless on the street, heroin addicts in
Speaker 3: like Montreal and the winter, It's like, if I lived
Speaker 3: your life, I would be in the exact same situation,
Speaker 3: Like You've lived a life where that's the good option.
Speaker 3: That's actually how like the ego and the shadow works.
Speaker 3: So I think I wanted to share that with people
Speaker 3: because it's not I'm not saying people are erroneous when
Speaker 3: they have been called to magic, at least in part
Speaker 3: because there is a necessary structural medicine in that story.
Speaker 3: But there is there is another story that we continue
Speaker 3: that story and turn it into something I promise is
Speaker 3: so much better.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Something I did want to ask, uh. I
Speaker 1: know we're already kind of getting close to an hour
Speaker 1: and a half, just like real quick from your experiences. Again,
Speaker 1: I really did love the answer that you gave before
Speaker 1: for chaos magic. Now, I just wanted to give maybe
Speaker 1: people an idea. If somebody wanted to consider themselves a
Speaker 1: chaos magician or they're kind of into that stuff, what
Speaker 1: would be normal practices of a chaos magician, Like, what
Speaker 1: would be stuff that'd be part of their daily routine
Speaker 1: and ritual work.
Speaker 3: So there would have been things that they've tried. So
Speaker 3: chaos magic is a scar from pulling off your bike
Speaker 3: because it's like, oh, I would have kicked it. I
Speaker 3: did some of Pete Carroll's stuff from his earlier books
Speaker 3: that he's low key repudiated. I had to play around
Speaker 3: with the Simon omcunn and so I've read Robert Anton
Speaker 3: Wilson and I've read The Invisibles, and that's it, Like
Speaker 3: it's actually the stuff you've done rather than the stuff
Speaker 3: that you're doing with the possible exception, and it's I mean,
Speaker 3: we say possible. If we were to find a single
Speaker 3: universal in the regular practice or the non dropped rather
Speaker 3: than regular practice of a chaos magician. It would probably
Speaker 3: be some form of sigil magic. But other than that,
Speaker 3: there's no specific You've kicked the ties on a bunch
Speaker 3: of gods, you kick the ties on a bunch of
Speaker 3: different I actually don't think anyone. I think chaos magic
Speaker 3: is a history over its forty or so years. He's
Speaker 3: also its version of a grade system, because you start
Speaker 3: off with Pete Carroll's nineteen eighties books, and then you
Speaker 3: kind of move into a nineties erao. Then you move
Speaker 3: into I mean fair enough, the simon omicon is the seventies,
Speaker 3: but like necronomicon invisibles, that's a nineties moment, and then
Speaker 3: you kind of move out of that in to how
Speaker 3: you apply that to Western magic with things like grimoires
Speaker 3: and angels, and then you sort of out and somewhere
Speaker 3: in there you probably read you Bob Wilson in between
Speaker 3: Pete Carroll and the nineties moment. But the actual story
Speaker 3: of chaos magic is kind of its grade system. Because
Speaker 3: the people who still use the term, or a better
Speaker 3: way of saying that as the people who still find
Speaker 3: use in the term, because I find use in the
Speaker 3: term like I said that if people call me a
Speaker 3: chast mission, I really care, but like I find use
Speaker 3: in the term. That's what I think. I think you've
Speaker 3: done some stuff. Rather than there's a collection of practices
Speaker 3: that look like cruising altitude for chaos magic. The only
Speaker 3: thing that would be up there would be maybe if
Speaker 3: you're going to do practical enchantment, you would at least
Speaker 3: consider sigils. That's probably it.
Speaker 1: I could almost maybe safe from my experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: not that I would ever say I was really a
Speaker 1: chast magician, but I could see how, you know, I
Speaker 1: worked with sigils a lot, and I think it was
Speaker 1: at that point when I got to that it was
Speaker 1: because of me being into other stuff that I kind
Speaker 1: of got into that in that direction. I think almost
Speaker 1: kind of like how you even said with like you know,
Speaker 1: thalima chas magic, you know, kind of a different different
Speaker 1: brand for me. I think it was even with the
Speaker 1: sigil work like kind of like taking my own ideas
Speaker 1: putting it together, and then like how theelima, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: it lets you grasp so many different areas to still
Speaker 1: pull from and put together, you know, So I think
Speaker 1: it was like due to all of that experience, I
Speaker 1: found myself like, kind of maybe I guess a chaos
Speaker 1: magician for a minute, you know, I got I was
Speaker 1: into servitors and experiment in college. You know, do you
Speaker 1: think do you think servators and Eggregor's would be something
Speaker 1: considered that a chass magician would play with.
Speaker 3: No, I think you'd have a moment with them, like
Speaker 3: coming out of Pete Carroll into the nineties. So I
Speaker 3: think you've kicked the tires on it. I find them
Speaker 3: very unsatisfying because well, I have a like, I have
Speaker 3: lineage spirits, I have a spirit team. Now, like, why
Speaker 3: would I not talk to like my actual spirits rather
Speaker 3: than me? It almost seems rude at its point to
Speaker 3: make one. So I think you've had a moment with it,
Speaker 3: and I understand the logic of how it ended up
Speaker 3: in Chaos Magic as an experimental moment. But even like
Speaker 3: phil Hein, like they've all repudiated, they're all well and
Speaker 3: truly left behind this stuff like it's thirty and forty
Speaker 3: years old. They're old, proper old now, right, So this is.
Speaker 1: What I mean.
Speaker 3: But I think you go through it and the Chaos
Speaker 3: Magic's lodge system is going like chronologically accidentally chronologically, it
Speaker 3: just kind of unfolds. You find your early Pete Carol
Speaker 3: and then you sort of finish it with later Pete Carroll,
Speaker 3: which doesn't have the same charge, but it's more reflective
Speaker 3: of his contemporary thinking. But like it's a good point.
Speaker 3: Like Sealima allows you to do that as well. So
Speaker 3: you do liba resh and then you activate some sigils.
Speaker 3: Are you doing chaos magic or are you doing Salima?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 3: Like it's it's kind of different brands, and that's a
Speaker 3: chaos magic is beautiful of being interoperable in that way.
Speaker 3: It's coming back to that open sacred space and get
Speaker 3: out of the way. Sigil magic itself when you when
Speaker 3: you feel cold to up the ceremonial complexity, that's typically
Speaker 3: when you're ready to go and find something else, because
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, well I could just do a sigil
Speaker 3: on the bus. Probably not the masturbation one, but I
Speaker 3: could do a sigil on the bus. Yeah, I got
Speaker 3: I got, I got some candles, I got the house
Speaker 3: to myself tonight. How do I what do I want
Speaker 3: to do this? Coming back to that co creation, like,
Speaker 3: how do I want this to work? Do I want
Speaker 3: this to be angelic, like, what day is it? It's
Speaker 3: it's Friday, it's Venus. Like you start to go horizontally
Speaker 3: out and I love that. That's what's really good about it.
Speaker 3: So what are you doing at that point? What are
Speaker 3: you doing if I'm if it's our Venus day of
Speaker 3: Venus activating sigils? Am I doing astrological magic just because?
Speaker 3: Or am I doing sigil magic? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was the same way with the sigils and everything.
Speaker 1: And again, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was gonna say, so you have all that
Speaker 5: you were saying earlier, how you identified with the chaos
Speaker 5: magic and took that on as an identity and you're
Speaker 5: playing with and kicking the hires within these various you know,
Speaker 5: formats of sigil magic and noki and philosophy, And is
Speaker 5: there a point where you ascend above all of this
Speaker 5: identity type magical process and move more into a higher
Speaker 5: form of universal mysticism.
Speaker 3: Basically, I don't think you ascend, and I don't think
Speaker 3: it's higher. You would suggest if it's further down, but
Speaker 3: it's more like losing those two worlds again. Chaos magic
Speaker 3: is really really good if you're an adolescent and then
Speaker 3: in your twenties, like I was living all over the
Speaker 3: world and like having not with his budget but having
Speaker 3: like Grant Morrison Adventures and it was great. Then you
Speaker 3: encounter something that can't be contained by the This is
Speaker 3: the flaw in Wilsonian thinking like Bob Wilson that it
Speaker 3: is like, then you encounter something that can't be contained
Speaker 3: by the like, well, maybe maybe it's this, maybe it's that.
Speaker 3: Maybe I guess I'll never fucking know. It's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: that was real. That's different. There's there's a there's a
Speaker 3: you lose the confidence that you're smart enough to know
Speaker 3: that this stuff is all we'll never really know, low
Speaker 3: key made up, you know. That's that you lose that
Speaker 3: chaos magic world. If you do enough chaos magic to
Speaker 3: have a result that's like, oh fuck, then you have
Speaker 3: gnosis yeah exactly, which is in the system, like it's there.
Speaker 3: And secondarily, I would say, is just speaking of young
Speaker 3: I think does age into it. So the first half
Speaker 3: of life is the is the egoic outward expression. Famously,
Speaker 3: he would not take clients until they're in their forties
Speaker 3: because they weren't interesting to him until then, right, because
Speaker 3: it's in his era anyway, Like by the time you're forty,
Speaker 3: you've raised your kids, you've had your career like man
Speaker 3: or woman, Like the kids are out of the house,
Speaker 3: and the second half of life is like my dreams
Speaker 3: and what the hell am I?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Yes, so you actually just grow into it, you grow
Speaker 3: out of well you do. Actually, this is when you
Speaker 3: picture in your head people who are the profoundly anti
Speaker 3: social pathetic personalities that ruin magical community. Those are the
Speaker 3: people who've hit the second half of life but are
Speaker 3: still operating as if they're in the first half of
Speaker 3: lif life because of like the trauma stuff, like it's
Speaker 3: whether it's narcissism or or lack or what have you.
Speaker 3: It's still operating from the first half of life scarcity
Speaker 3: thinking they haven't made the inward turn. So I think
Speaker 3: if you're just aware of it, it happens like it
Speaker 3: happens magic will magic will blow up chaos magic for you.
Speaker 3: And I right about that in cares protocols like it's
Speaker 3: a feature not a bug, that it'll like that will happen.
Speaker 3: And then there's the second half of life moment and
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean like, oh I've reached tremendous success and
Speaker 3: I have all the money I need and the house
Speaker 3: is paid off. It's not that exactly. It's actually just
Speaker 3: the inward turn happens when you've had enough adulting, you've
Speaker 3: had two decades of the cut and thrust, and it
Speaker 3: doesn't mean you retire. It means like this isn't all
Speaker 3: there is, Like I'm actually more interesting and my life
Speaker 3: is more interesting. What's going on there? Like following that,
Speaker 3: following those dreams, following that imaginal expression. So it's not
Speaker 3: ascending or higher, it's just unfolded. Yeah, it's just like
Speaker 3: how a tree reach is matured.
Speaker 5: I guess right, right, Yeah, that makes total sense, the
Speaker 5: natural expression of the function of manifestation and growth itself.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and you you you, if you were fortunate
Speaker 3: enough to have an incarnation that gets you into that
Speaker 3: second half of life, that's what happened. So that's how
Speaker 3: the Mayans considered. Once you'd been on earth for what
Speaker 3: was it, fifty two years to do the full token calendar,
Speaker 3: you were considered complete.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I just mean you die, Yeah, I just it doesn't
Speaker 3: mean you die. It just means like the tree has
Speaker 3: reached maturity and you just carry on treeing until you
Speaker 3: actually do it, like you've the the unpacking of the
Speaker 3: soul or the spirit into the body in life completes
Speaker 3: at that point and then you're just that until you leave.
Speaker 3: And it's sort of it's that same. It's not exactly that,
Speaker 3: but it's that same natural attending to the natural unfolding
Speaker 3: of what it is to be to be a human
Speaker 3: that has an in kind that goes this long.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anybody else have any questions?
Speaker 4: I have one, vifore, I get a last one. So
Speaker 4: I'm friends with a student of Austin Kopak, who I
Speaker 4: know you've had on obviously. He relates a story from
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen where he made you an electional talisman and
Speaker 4: during the bushfires, I guess, and he extols your skill
Speaker 4: in talisman or sigil making, excuse me, in sigil making.
Speaker 4: And I wondered if you could share anything that you
Speaker 4: I'm sure you teach a course on it and all
Speaker 4: that and write about it extensively, but if you could
Speaker 4: share something that you think is useful in sigel making,
Speaker 4: that would be I mean, I really like that.
Speaker 3: So there's a whole bunch of free videos on my
Speaker 3: YouTube channel now about this and the thing and some
Speaker 3: recent ones from about December, because I've kind of done
Speaker 3: a series on what we've been talking about. Like when
Speaker 3: when you hit a moment that in the let's say
Speaker 3: in your twenties, you'd be like, oh, oh I'm going
Speaker 3: to do some love magic to get that chick. It's like, well,
Speaker 3: why that specific chick? Like we can alsoay that, oh
Speaker 3: you should just like love yourself and radiate love, and
Speaker 3: you'll like sure, but why that specific one? Like what
Speaker 3: does your life look like with her in it? That's
Speaker 3: the actual target, Like, oh, my parents would hate this
Speaker 3: bitch and that's what I really want, so okay, cool,
Speaker 3: so or they I would finally get approval from my
Speaker 3: parents because she's super hort and is also Indian, Like
Speaker 3: oh so actually the time, it's not about her. The
Speaker 3: target is like I am called to sit with lack
Speaker 3: of approval or more or like emotional distancing from parents.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So the key to sential magic is to actually find
Speaker 3: the thing that's looking to come into the universe through you,
Speaker 3: because it's always is the next it's the next leyer down.
Speaker 3: It's always like, oh, I need a sigil so that
Speaker 3: Kathy at work falls in love with me. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: appreciate how wildly specific that is, and let's get down
Speaker 3: to what I call the miracle player underneath it and
Speaker 3: activate that because that might happen, by the way, but
Speaker 3: I guarantee that the thing that's trying to come through
Speaker 3: you will not happen even if you managed to successfully
Speaker 3: do that, so that there's no people want And this
Speaker 3: is fascinating to me. People think that the increase in
Speaker 3: magical efficacy comes through technical excellence. It's like, oh, my
Speaker 3: sigils didn't come off. I must be using the wrong
Speaker 3: paint pen. It's not that right. Like, beyond a certain
Speaker 3: basic level of having a stylust or an implement to
Speaker 3: put a mark on something else, you have completed the
Speaker 3: technical part of making is sigil. So if they're not
Speaker 3: working at that point, don't be like, oh, I guess
Speaker 3: I should have a different colored paper, like you're just
Speaker 3: spinning and spinning and spinning, because like, oh, coffee still
Speaker 3: doesn't love me. I'll try red paper tomorrow, Like girl,
Speaker 3: that's not going to be it. And that's the only
Speaker 3: reason why I even bother talking about it anymore, because
Speaker 3: It brings people who are cracked open ready to look
Speaker 3: at a particular trauma to my door, if you will.
Speaker 3: Because the stuff that people will just like message on
Speaker 3: YouTube which I don't look at either like or telegram
Speaker 3: or whatever, they'll show up going like, oh I really
Speaker 3: need this to happen. It's like, Okay, this is going
Speaker 3: to be a good discussion, but it's not going to
Speaker 3: go where you think it's gonna you think it's going
Speaker 3: to go. It's going to go where it needs to.
Speaker 3: And sigils are really good for that. Sigils are really
Speaker 3: good for that because they are iterative and admit no,
Speaker 3: admit minimal self delusion, and that's that's their consistent power.
Speaker 3: But if I think your friend might be talking about
Speaker 3: the Vesuki operation, maybe someone to water Dragon. That was wild,
Speaker 3: that was good, that's in the whole story. That's an
Speaker 3: animistic Yeah, very very impressive, Yeah, very impressive operation. Yeah,
Speaker 3: save the FuMB. So you know.
Speaker 6: This, This reminds me of a really simple, intuitive and
Speaker 6: in psyche investigative process that I learned, and I believe
Speaker 6: you're elaborating, but just in its most simple, you can
Speaker 6: ask when you when you find that's one specific girl,
Speaker 6: or that thing that maybe you want or that maybe
Speaker 6: you're afraid of. You can alternatively ask yourself repeatedly what's
Speaker 6: the best that could happen? And then again, what's the
Speaker 6: best that could happen? And for the things that you
Speaker 6: have fear of, well, what's the worst that could happen?
Speaker 6: And keep keep going with that line of questioning, and
Speaker 6: it really can bring up some insightful Yeah.
Speaker 3: I like to view a negativa for that I do
Speaker 3: what am I upset about? So like, let's say it's
Speaker 3: Kathy work, what am I upset about? Oh? I'm not
Speaker 3: in a relationship with Kathy? What about that makes me upset?
Speaker 3: And you you, you, you dig down layer after layer
Speaker 3: until you get to I'm I'm not in a relationship
Speaker 3: with someone that my parents would like, and so I
Speaker 3: do not have parental approval. It's like, ah, we found it,
Speaker 3: thanks Kathy. And then by then it's who cares? Right,
Speaker 3: But it's the same, it's the same being negativa, but
Speaker 3: its very well, yeah, dropping underneath, dropping underneath, what is this?
Speaker 3: What is this? What does my life look like? With Kathy?
Speaker 3: It's like my parents would kick us out halfway through
Speaker 3: Thanksgiving and it would just be my happiest moment. And
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, do you think we should look there?
Speaker 3: And and that's that's it for me.
Speaker 1: That was right. That was amazing. Thank you. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate that, and I think, well, well could I mean,
Speaker 1: unless anybody's got questions, I'm good and I think we
Speaker 1: can wrap it up there real quick. Just so everybody
Speaker 1: remembers the people who are listening, Ethan, just let everybody
Speaker 1: know where they can find your stuff.
Speaker 6: Again, that was so fun, Gordon, thank you so much
Speaker 6: for the inspiration and insight Ethan Indigo.
Speaker 3: I'm on all the social.
Speaker 6: Media, please feel free to reach out, and of course
Speaker 6: I'm a cult research institute.
Speaker 3: Thanks again.
Speaker 1: Thank you Robbie Marx.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for the perspective in regard to all the
Speaker 5: different angles to be able to look at everything. Yeah,
Speaker 5: if anybody wants to check out my stuff, my art,
Speaker 5: my podcast, anything, just go to my link tree at
Speaker 5: our Marx.
Speaker 1: And Jin.
Speaker 4: So let me just say thank you to Gordon, Thank
Speaker 4: you to Robbie Ethan obviously the boss mister thirty three.
Speaker 4: So you can listen to my show with Threshold Saints
Speaker 4: if you if you're interested and can follow me on
Speaker 4: Insta or Twitter, Threshold Saints and atat Wukong Reborn Wu,
Speaker 4: you know, and she obviously nick we my link tree
Speaker 4: in the show notes. And I just wanted to say
Speaker 4: that I loved how Gordon kind of wowed in this
Speaker 4: idea of chronopoesis through narrating pseudo chronology of chaos magic
Speaker 4: and how one would perceive it, approach it and recognize
Speaker 4: what isn't it? The different stages kind of I thought
Speaker 4: that was very interesting. So thank you guys, And yeah,
Speaker 4: this was amazing one of my favorite shows.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Jin And yeah, that is something
Speaker 1: I do. I would like to add. I was really
Speaker 1: glad Gordon, you know what you did explain about chaos
Speaker 1: magic and even what you mentioned about the sigils and
Speaker 1: how deep you can take that. That was something that
Speaker 1: I had started noticing that It was like, well, why
Speaker 1: am I even looking for this? What is it feeling
Speaker 1: that I'm looking? What am I lacking that I'm looking
Speaker 1: to fulfill this with? That is very deep, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think people don't realize that, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound edgy, or it doesn't involve like you know,
Speaker 1: it's child sacrifice. Maybe magicians don't.
Speaker 3: Do that stuff. What we do is what that means
Speaker 3: is the thing they want more is to be seen
Speaker 3: as edgy, and that's where you drop in like there's
Speaker 3: no dodging it. Like if people like other doesn't say
Speaker 3: edgy enough, I'm like, okay, cool. So you came to
Speaker 3: me for a love spell and what we actually want
Speaker 3: is a specialness spell, right like, oh that doesn't say like,
Speaker 3: there's no way it's it's a finger trap. You come
Speaker 3: to me with what you think is your your desire,
Speaker 3: we will surface it with one or two questions and
Speaker 3: then we'll drop down to that miracle layer and you'll
Speaker 3: never look back. The magic can do that magic is
Speaker 3: that's what it's for. It's this glorious like miraculous unfolding
Speaker 3: of ship that you didn't even know. Damn, I didn't
Speaker 3: even know that's what it was. And I love that
Speaker 3: we've all been through it. But I had to like, ah,
Speaker 3: that's not cool, like shadow work awesome. That's what we're at,
Speaker 3: is it? It's like, hang on, why is that upsetting
Speaker 3: to me? And it's the edging you thing? Oh why
Speaker 3: do I need to be special? But you want to
Speaker 3: be special? According to who or do you want this
Speaker 3: glorious unfirl of your incarnation into the cosmos to say?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, fair, good point, good point, carrying on. I
Speaker 3: love it. I love I love that. You can't you.
Speaker 3: It's it's a I don't know, like an escape room
Speaker 3: or something and you walk in and say, ah, damn it,
Speaker 3: I came in for one thing and it's it's completely
Speaker 3: different on the way out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, multiple times, that's happened to me. Gordon. Please let
Speaker 1: everybody know where they can find all your amazing stuff.
Speaker 3: Rounsoup dot com, root soup on substack, it's all completely free.
Speaker 3: That's probably the best place to get all the free material.
Speaker 3: But if you want to join the membership, that's roomsoop
Speaker 3: dot com and yeah, root soup on YouTube.
Speaker 1: U is your website have all like your your books
Speaker 1: and stuff available or is that somewhere ablse you will?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find them there. But like, who's going
Speaker 3: to go to a website to find well, good to Amazon,
Speaker 3: you know what?
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, there you go look him up on Amazon.
Speaker 1: I'll try to grab some of his stuff and I'll
Speaker 1: throw his links down there. But thank you again, Gordon.
Speaker 1: It was really it was a great talk. It was
Speaker 1: nice to have somebody else on the show that has
Speaker 1: been practicing and studying for a long time. It was
Speaker 1: wealth of knowledge and I'm really glad the listeners get
Speaker 1: to hear it. And thank you all, Jin, Robbie and
Speaker 1: Ethan for joining me again. It was an amazing episode
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it. And until the next one, everybody
Speaker 1: be well later