Speaker 1: Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 1: gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in
Speaker 2: my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have
Speaker 2: to say?
Speaker 1: Yes? You do?
Speaker 3: In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 4: I never win?
Speaker 1: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 3: You can get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com.
Speaker 1: Play for free right now. Are you feeling lucky? Nope,
Speaker 1: we're not necessary void.
Speaker 3: We're gonna bet my long eighteen plus terms and conditions of
Speaker 3: plus you's every details.
Speaker 2: Wait the Lucky Land Slots. You can get lucky just
Speaker 2: about anywhere.
Speaker 1: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 1: weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 1: while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 1: just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest
Speaker 1: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 1: start getting lucky.
Speaker 2: Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you
Speaker 2: feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law
Speaker 2: eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for d.
Speaker 4: LO host Radio.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening, This is your host Stan Zupaski for the
Speaker 6: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 6: History and the authors that have written about them. Fort
Speaker 6: Worth businessman Stephen Barbie was handsome, popular, and married to
Speaker 6: a wonderful woman. There was just one problem. His ex girlfriend,
Speaker 6: Lisa Underwood, was pregnant asking for money. As guests gathered
Speaker 6: for Lisa's baby shower with presents and good wishes, only
Speaker 6: two things were missing, Lisa and her seven year old son, Jayden.
Speaker 6: As time passed, friends and family became concerned, but even
Speaker 6: their worst fears couldn't compare to the gruesome truth. Lisa
Speaker 6: was at home when Barbie showed up. Voices were raised,
Speaker 6: then fists. By the end, Lisa, her unborn child, and
Speaker 6: young Jaden were dead, but all police found was a
Speaker 6: bloody room. What followed was an investigation filled with lurid twists,
Speaker 6: a wild trial, grisly details of multiple murder, a shocking burial,
Speaker 6: and the warp motives of a man who would do
Speaker 6: anything to gain his own happiness. The book is Lethal Charmer,
Speaker 6: and with my guest journalist and author Patricia Springer, I
Speaker 6: want to welcome Patricia to the program and thank her
Speaker 6: for agreeing to this interview. Good evening, Dan, good evening, Pad.
Speaker 6: How are you.
Speaker 4: I'm great.
Speaker 6: Oh, thanks for joining me on this second encore we've had,
Speaker 6: or the encore we've had from our interview not so
Speaker 6: long ago. So thank you for a green again. It
Speaker 6: was going to be It's going to be a great interview.
Speaker 6: I wanted to ask you what made you decide to
Speaker 6: write a book about this case? What brought you to
Speaker 6: this case and inevitably to this book, Lethal Charmer.
Speaker 4: Well, this was a very high profile case in Fort Worth, Texas.
Speaker 4: I lived just north of Fort Worth myself. It was
Speaker 4: a brutal murder and it garnered a lot of attention
Speaker 4: in this area, mostly because it involved not only a
Speaker 4: woman but her seven year old son and her unworn
Speaker 4: child in Texas the death of the fetus?
Speaker 6: Hello, yes, Dan, Oh, sorry you cut off there for
Speaker 6: a moment, so I'm sorry talking about the death of
Speaker 6: a fetus law.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, it also brings a capital murder charge right now,
Speaker 4: that they didn't choose to do that because it was
Speaker 4: a double homicide and so forth, kidnapping and so forth,
Speaker 4: but it would have been they could have filed just
Speaker 4: because it was an unborn fetus that was did.
Speaker 6: Right now, How big is Forworth, Texas? Just for people
Speaker 6: that don't know, how closest to any other big city
Speaker 6: that we might all know in Texas? Where is it
Speaker 6: situated in Texas?
Speaker 4: It's about thirty It's in North Texas and it's thirty
Speaker 4: miles west of Dallas. I'm sorry. It's the seventeenth largest
Speaker 4: city in the nation with about seven hundred thousand residents.
Speaker 4: There's about a million people in Tiran County, which is
Speaker 4: where for Worth is. It's the number one tourist attraction
Speaker 4: in Texas because it's known as Cowtown. They are quite proud,
Speaker 4: as they should be, of their Western history and their
Speaker 4: ristered heritage, and they play on that a lot.
Speaker 6: Right now. One of the main subjects of your book,
Speaker 6: Lethal Charmer is a woman named Lisa Underwood. Now, who
Speaker 6: is Lisa Underwood? What was her character like? Did she
Speaker 6: have children? Tell us about her.
Speaker 4: Lisa was a thirty four year old single mother and
Speaker 4: she was the co owner of Bupa's bagel shop. Bupa's
Speaker 4: was a nickname of Jade and her son, and so
Speaker 4: that's what they named the bagel shop. She and her
Speaker 4: business partner and best friend, Holly. Lisa was very close
Speaker 4: to her mother and her son was the joy of
Speaker 4: her life. She was very proud of him. She loved
Speaker 4: being a mom. She was thrilled about being president pregnant again,
Speaker 4: and she was very excited that it was going to
Speaker 4: be a little girl. Lisa was fun, loving, honest, hardworking.
Speaker 4: She just happened to fall in love with the wrong man. Right.
Speaker 6: Was there any history and on her part that she
Speaker 6: have sort of a checkered past? What was her You said,
Speaker 6: this is a very high profile case, so I imagine
Speaker 6: that this sometimes the more high profile means sometimes the
Speaker 6: victim is a little more sympathetic. Tell us what kind
Speaker 6: of past Lisa had? You said she picked the wrong person,
Speaker 6: But what was her character like? And obviously that led
Speaker 6: to a little bit more attention by the media.
Speaker 4: Well, she I think that the attention from the media
Speaker 4: came more from the fact that her seven year old
Speaker 4: son was also murdered and the fact that she was pregnant.
Speaker 4: Lisa was just a hard working woman and she had Jaden.
Speaker 4: She was not married, but she wasn't the kind of
Speaker 4: person that people would consider to be bad. There have
Speaker 4: been some blogging interviewing all of her friends and her
Speaker 4: family is that she was a good person and that
Speaker 4: she just idolized Jaden and was a very good mother.
Speaker 6: Right now, the other main subject in your book is
Speaker 6: Stephen Barbie and what was his early family life like
Speaker 6: before we get to how they met.
Speaker 4: So sure, Stephen grew up in a middle class family
Speaker 4: in Asle, Texas that's just north of Fort Worth. His
Speaker 4: mom worked at the school where he went, and his
Speaker 4: dad worked for Bell Helicopter. Bell Helicopter Bill's Defense Aircraft
Speaker 4: and he worked there until he retired. His death's name
Speaker 4: was Bill. His mother's name is Jackie. Stephen was the
Speaker 4: youngest of three kids, and in his early years he
Speaker 4: was known as the class plan. He was very popular,
Speaker 4: He was athletic, he was well liked. Then, when he
Speaker 4: was about twelve years old to be a little older,
Speaker 4: his sister died and she was twenty at the time.
Speaker 4: She died from a rare infection that she had gotten
Speaker 4: in the hospital. And then his brother died in a
Speaker 4: one car automobile accident when he was twenty and at
Speaker 4: that time Stephen changed. He believed that he would never
Speaker 4: live to see twenty one, and he began living a
Speaker 4: rather wildlife, taking chances. He got into some trouble with
Speaker 4: criminal mischief, he dropped out of sports, he wasn't doing
Speaker 4: well in school, just convinced that he had to live
Speaker 4: life to the fullest through his twenties because he would
Speaker 4: never see twenty one. He never got into any real trouble,
Speaker 4: just minor scrapes, and his mother got him out of
Speaker 4: most of those. His parents finally sent him to a
Speaker 4: Christian school, hoping that that would settle him down, and
Speaker 4: he went there for a while, and then he decided
Speaker 4: that he wanted to go back to public school and
Speaker 4: play sports. He liked football baseball. When he went back
Speaker 4: to the public school, they wouldn't accept his transfer credits
Speaker 4: from the Christian school, and so he became very frustrated
Speaker 4: and he dropped out. He never did get a high
Speaker 4: school diploma, although he did get a GED which is
Speaker 4: a high school equivalency certificate. But he just kind of
Speaker 4: after his siblings died, just kind of went down a
Speaker 4: path of unconcerned about himself and really anything about life.
Speaker 4: He lost the zest for life that he had once had.
Speaker 6: What was his relationship with his parents. I know they
Speaker 6: were devastated by the loss of their children as well,
Speaker 6: but what was the relationship seen Stephen and his parents
Speaker 6: around that time.
Speaker 4: Well, he really grew very close to his parents at
Speaker 4: that time. Even though he was getting into some minor scrapes,
Speaker 4: he still remained close and he and his mother actually
Speaker 4: developed a very strong bond. This was her last child
Speaker 4: and she would do anything for him, give him anything
Speaker 4: he wanted. We got us at what sacrifice it was
Speaker 4: to she and her husband. They really doated on Stephen
Speaker 4: a lot because he was the only child left and
Speaker 4: he truly loved them. But again, had a really close
Speaker 4: bond with his mother in particular.
Speaker 6: Was there alcohol and drugs involved in this wild time
Speaker 6: and this taking chances period that you spoke of, not.
Speaker 4: Much, I mean, you know, dabbling but not really. He
Speaker 4: didn't become a drug addict or an alcoholic. I'm sure
Speaker 4: that he did drink, I know that, but it was
Speaker 4: just mostly you know, driving fast, and he got into
Speaker 4: some mischief at school. They broke in and did some
Speaker 4: graffiti damage and that kind of thing. Kids stouted mostly, And.
Speaker 6: He never had any psychiatric evaluation of any extent, to
Speaker 6: any great extent, no, not that we're aware of. Okay,
Speaker 6: now he's a married man at this at some point
Speaker 6: in your story. Maybe I'm going a little bit ahead here,
Speaker 6: but oh, actually I want to ask you. All we
Speaker 6: got really is to maybe in his early twenties. I
Speaker 6: want to ask you about is how about his adult life, say,
Speaker 6: a few years later? What happened? You say he would
Speaker 6: He did have much zest for life, and he and
Speaker 6: had this notion that he wouldn't live till he was
Speaker 6: thirty years old anyway, So what did he do as
Speaker 6: time went on?
Speaker 4: Well, his mother really tried to keep him pumped up emotionally,
Speaker 4: and so when he was with the day turned twenty,
Speaker 4: his mother told him that she had saved money for
Speaker 4: him and that he could buy a boat. And he
Speaker 4: bought the boat and he would go out on the
Speaker 4: lakes and go fishing and water skiing and so forth.
Speaker 4: And he had started a business when he was a teenager,
Speaker 4: a lawn care business. First he started with the neighbors
Speaker 4: during their lawn and so forth. And he built this
Speaker 4: business up to where he called it four seasons, and
Speaker 4: it was really quite successful, and in the end he
Speaker 4: even got state contracts with the state of Texas to
Speaker 4: trim trees along the highway. So he was really a
Speaker 4: very successful businessman in the Inn. For just a few years,
Speaker 4: he was a reserve officer with the Blue moun Police Department.
Speaker 4: Again that's just north of Fort Worth, and although he
Speaker 4: was just a reserve officer, he spent about twenty hours
Speaker 4: a month, probably patrolling and so forth. He had always
Speaker 4: wanted to be a police officer, but his business grew
Speaker 4: so much that he finally dropped that and just concentrated
Speaker 4: on the lawn business and the tree trimming business. He
Speaker 4: drove a corvette. He dated multiple women. He was good looking,
Speaker 4: fun loving, he spent money on them. He always had
Speaker 4: a girl on his arm. He married his first wife, Teresa,
Speaker 4: and they were married for about seven years, but that
Speaker 4: became a very volatile relationship with accusations of verbal and
Speaker 4: physical abuse on both sides. So he was married for
Speaker 4: a period of time.
Speaker 6: Did he have any actual charges, any substantive actual charges
Speaker 6: of assault against I know lots of times both people charged.
Speaker 6: But in your whatever you could determine from it, was
Speaker 6: there any physical abuse that might have happened with his
Speaker 6: first wife, Teresa?
Speaker 4: Teresa listed several in court, several incidents. One he pushed
Speaker 4: her against the wall and a candle fell on her
Speaker 4: head and she was knocked unconscious. He wouldn't take her
Speaker 4: to the hospital. He drove herself, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: But as far as actual police involvement, they were called,
Speaker 4: but he was never arrested and formally charged with any
Speaker 4: kind of domestic violence.
Speaker 6: Okay, so we can say it wasn't too serious, not
Speaker 6: to downplay anything, but no, too serious anyway.
Speaker 4: No, it was more of a he said, she said,
Speaker 4: And really it got down to people didn't know who
Speaker 4: started it and who.
Speaker 6: Did it right right now, did he have children with Teresa?
Speaker 4: No, they never had children. Now, they taught Sunday school.
Speaker 4: They took a program that had about ten kids in
Speaker 4: it and built it up to dozens of children that
Speaker 4: were in their Sunday school class. Steven loved puppetry and
Speaker 4: he would put on puppet shows for the kids. They
Speaker 4: based their they had their own curriculum that they taught
Speaker 4: them and so forth. So he loved kids. He was
Speaker 4: just a big kid inself. He'd liked to have fun,
Speaker 4: but as far as children, he and Teresa never had any.
Speaker 6: Now, when did Stephen Barbie meet Lisa Underwood? And when
Speaker 6: does you say? He's married to Teresa? So that marriage ended,
Speaker 6: and so to give us the chronological order of what happens,
Speaker 6: when does Lisa meet Stephen Barbie? Does? He does give
Speaker 6: us the order of events here.
Speaker 4: Actually, Lisa had met Teresa first because Teresa would come
Speaker 4: into the bagel shop and get breakfast for their workers
Speaker 4: that worked for them and take it back to the
Speaker 4: shop to them. Then after he and Stephen and Teresa separated,
Speaker 4: Stephen would go into the bagel shop and pick up breakfast.
Speaker 4: And that's where he met Lisa was there at her shop,
Speaker 4: and he found her to be cute and personable, and
Speaker 4: she liked to laugh and she laughed at his jokes,
Speaker 4: and he just thought that she was cute and ask
Speaker 4: her out and they started dating just casually at first, right,
Speaker 4: and hello.
Speaker 3: It is Ryan And we could all use an extra
Speaker 3: bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to make
Speaker 3: up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 3: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 3: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 3: Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 3: you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 3: That's your bright new day alone, actually a lot, so
Speaker 3: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 3: Casino dot com.
Speaker 6: Billberg necessary dtail where I lost the terms conditions eighteen
Speaker 6: plus And then when did Stephen mary again? And who
Speaker 6: did he marry the second time?
Speaker 4: He had dated Lisa for about a year on and
Speaker 4: off year and a half, and then one day he
Speaker 4: was in Fort Worth and he noticed this gal standing
Speaker 4: on the street that he knew he had known and
Speaker 4: her husband, and he stopped and said hello to her,
Speaker 4: found out she had been divorced, and asked her out.
Speaker 4: And he always thought that Trish was just beautiful and
Speaker 4: she had two children that he was crazy about, And
Speaker 4: so he started dating Trish and quit dating Lisa, Lisa
Speaker 4: found out that she was pregnant and continued to seek
Speaker 4: out Stephen and wanted to talk with him and be
Speaker 4: with him. And he told her that he wanted to
Speaker 4: have a child with Trish, and Lisa said, well, we're
Speaker 4: having a child. But Stephen was just quiet enamored with Trish,
Speaker 4: and very shortly after they started dating, they got married.
Speaker 6: And so what did Stephen finally say to Lisa under
Speaker 6: what he was interested in Trish? He's going to have
Speaker 6: a child with Trish, he did he what did they
Speaker 6: actually decide or what did he actually say about the child?
Speaker 6: About the pregnancy.
Speaker 4: Well, when she first told him, he says he wanted
Speaker 4: a DNA test, and she told him that she was
Speaker 4: certain that it was his, and he said, well, you know, okay.
Speaker 4: And she wanted him to go to doctor appointments and
Speaker 4: he wouldn't. And she wanted him to be involved and
Speaker 4: he wouldn't because he was concentrating on his marriage. He
Speaker 4: married Trisha about two months before the murders actually, and
Speaker 4: at the time of Lisa's death, she was seven and
Speaker 4: a half months pregnant. Lisa wanted at the end, she
Speaker 4: just wanted his name on the birth certificate says the
Speaker 4: child would have a name, and she wanted insurance for
Speaker 4: the child, and he did not want to do that,
Speaker 4: particularly put his name on the birth certificate, because then
Speaker 4: Trisha had a great her chance of finding out. And
Speaker 4: he was trying to keep this pregnancy from Trish.
Speaker 6: Why did so He felt that if he told Trish
Speaker 6: and that would affect his relationships. So because of that,
Speaker 6: he you know, Lisa Underwood becomes a problem, right.
Speaker 4: Actually, he didn't see Lisa a whole lot more after
Speaker 4: he started seeing Trish, but in his mind there was
Speaker 4: an overlap there and she would mistake that as having
Speaker 4: you know, him gone out on her, jilted her, and
Speaker 4: so he didn't want her to know anything about Lisa.
Speaker 4: He was so afraid of losing Trish. He was quite
Speaker 4: in love with Trish and her children.
Speaker 6: Right now. Lisa Underwood has planned to attend a baby
Speaker 6: shower on her behalf organized by the family on February eighteen,
Speaker 6: two thousand and five. What happens at the baby shower?
Speaker 4: Lisa didn't show up. It was raining very heavily that day,
Speaker 4: and they had saved a parking place right in front
Speaker 4: of Bupa's for Lisa, and they kept looking out the window.
Speaker 4: The shower was supposed to start at four o'clock and
Speaker 4: they had told her to be there about five minutes
Speaker 4: till and all the friends and family were there with
Speaker 4: their gifts and the decorations and so forth, and Lisa
Speaker 4: didn't show up, and at by four fifteen, her mother, Sheila,
Speaker 4: was certain that something was wrong because it was just
Speaker 4: not like Lisa to be late. And she was so
Speaker 4: excited about this shower because she never had a baby
Speaker 4: shower when she had Jaden, and this was a little girl,
Speaker 4: and she was excited about all the little peak things
Speaker 4: that she was going to be getting. So particularly Sheila
Speaker 4: and Holly, her business partner, were very concerned by four
Speaker 4: p fifteen that she wasn't at the shower.
Speaker 6: Now, what did they do at that time? Did did
Speaker 6: Lisa have a cell phone? How did they respond? At fourth?
Speaker 4: They called her several times on her cell phone and
Speaker 4: it always went to voicemail. They never could get her.
Speaker 4: And finally Sheila just said, I'm going to the house.
Speaker 4: I've got to check, and so she went with her
Speaker 4: sister over to Lisa's house. Sheila had a key, She
Speaker 4: went inside, she looked around. Things didn't look quite right,
Speaker 4: and she became more concerned. It wasn't an obvious crime
Speaker 4: scene to her, but she knew things weren't right, and
Speaker 4: so she went back to the bagel shop and they
Speaker 4: called nine to one one and reported to the police
Speaker 4: that she was missing. While she was gone and checking
Speaker 4: on Lisa, Holly was calling all of the area hospitals
Speaker 4: to make sure that nothing had happened. Because she was
Speaker 4: seven and a half months pregnant. They thought, oh, well,
Speaker 4: perhaps she had gotten it if she'd been ill all
Speaker 4: week with a cold, so had Jaden and she had
Speaker 4: become more ill, or that something had occurred that she
Speaker 4: had to go to the hospital. So they were checking
Speaker 4: all of the area hospitals, but it didn't turn out
Speaker 4: that she was at any of them.
Speaker 6: That's a logical choice. Now, when you say that something
Speaker 6: was amiss at the house, the mother didn't Shela didn't
Speaker 6: go her mother didn't go inside. What did she do
Speaker 6: that and what seemed to be different?
Speaker 4: Well, the first thing was that the dog was outside,
Speaker 4: and the dog was never outside, he was an indoor puppy.
Speaker 4: And when she walked up to the front door, the
Speaker 4: first thing she said is what are you doing here?
Speaker 4: Just the dog, you know, because he was not supposed
Speaker 4: to be outside, particularly if they were gone. And so
Speaker 4: she looked inside, and she didn't go all the way in.
Speaker 4: She just sort of did a cursory look and then
Speaker 4: decided that there was something wrong and she called one
Speaker 4: one one.
Speaker 6: Now, how long it had been her friend Holly. We'll
Speaker 6: talk about her, Hollypolls. But how long had it been
Speaker 6: since anyone had spoken to to Lisa? Got the Colley had.
Speaker 4: Talked to her not that day. Holly had talked to
Speaker 4: her at seven forty five. The night before. Lisa had
Speaker 4: kept secret the name of the baby. She didn't want
Speaker 4: to tell them until she was ready that she was
Speaker 4: going to name the child Marlee. And so she Holly
Speaker 4: was at a party store getting napkins and plates and
Speaker 4: everything for the shower, and she called Lisa and said, well,
Speaker 4: if you'll just give me the first initial of the baby,
Speaker 4: then I can get initial plates. And Lisa laugh been said, oh, good, try,
Speaker 4: but that's not happening. So that was at seven forty five.
Speaker 4: Holly had been calling her all day and checking on
Speaker 4: her because she had been sick. She and Jaden had
Speaker 4: been sick and at seven forty five, Lisa told her
Speaker 4: that she was feeling a little better and that she
Speaker 4: was looking forward to the party the next afternoon at four.
Speaker 6: Okay, so now she doesn't show up for the shower.
Speaker 6: People eventually, I guess, realized that something has gone wrong.
Speaker 6: They've called all the hospitals. What happens next, you say,
Speaker 6: they've called nine one one. What happens between the police
Speaker 6: and Sheila and Holly? What happens? What happens next? What
Speaker 6: do they do?
Speaker 4: Went to the bagel shop and interviewed Sheila and Holly,
Speaker 4: and then Sheila followed the officer over to Lisa's house.
Speaker 4: The officer looked around the perimeter of the home to
Speaker 4: find out if there had been any kind of forced entry.
Speaker 4: She didn't find. She went inside. She walked around. She
Speaker 4: saw a pink tinge on the living room carpet and
Speaker 4: felt it. It was damp and it had a soapy
Speaker 4: residue on it. It was covered up by a coffee table.
Speaker 4: And at that point Holly had looked in and seen
Speaker 4: Jaden's tennis shoes on the hearth. She knew that folse
Speaker 4: were the only pair of tennis shoes that Jaden had
Speaker 4: it was February, it was very cold, very rainy, and
Speaker 4: she knew that if he was gone, he would have
Speaker 4: his shoes with him. And also they looked in the
Speaker 4: bedroom and Jaden's glasses were on the night table where
Speaker 4: he always put them when he went to bed at night,
Speaker 4: and he couldn't see without them. And so it really
Speaker 4: made Holly even more concern because the private things that
Speaker 4: Jaden needed to live and to function were gone were there,
Speaker 4: but he was gone.
Speaker 6: Now did Holly speak to the police if they only confused?
Speaker 6: Did Holly? Police spoke to Holly and asked her some questions.
Speaker 6: Did she give all the information that she gave at
Speaker 6: that time, and if she did, what's that information that
Speaker 6: she gave a police to give? Police? Initially about Lisa.
Speaker 4: They asked Holly when the last time she had talked
Speaker 4: to her, if they knew anybody that Lisa had had
Speaker 4: problems with, or anybody that had threatened Lisa, anyone that
Speaker 4: may have done something. And the first person the only
Speaker 4: person that Holly said with, Stephen Barbie. She explained to
Speaker 4: the police that Lisa had been dating him, that she
Speaker 4: was after him not for money, but for insurance for
Speaker 4: the baby, and so forth, and that he had become
Speaker 4: very angry about that, and so Holly tipped them off
Speaker 4: to Stephen Barbie's name and the connection of Stephen with
Speaker 4: Lisa right at the beginning.
Speaker 6: Right, and she also told him about the pregnancy and
Speaker 6: again you say you about the anger, but she told
Speaker 6: them that she told them quite a bit of information
Speaker 6: that would lead them to believe that now Stephen Barbie
Speaker 6: is their main suspect. That's right, Okay, Now we have
Speaker 6: to go back a little bit. Who is Ron Dodd,
Speaker 6: what's and what's his relationship to Stephen Barbie, because it's important.
Speaker 4: Ron Dodd was first an employee of Stephen Barbie's at
Speaker 4: Four Seasons, and then he became Stephen Barbie's best friend,
Speaker 4: and ironically he eventually became Teresa barbie stiance, so he
Speaker 4: was really entrenched into the Barbie family. Ron Dodd is
Speaker 4: a person who He's the one that drove Stephen Barbie
Speaker 4: to Lisa Underwood's house the night of the murders, and
Speaker 4: he was his best friend. He would do anything that
Speaker 4: Stephen Barbie asked him to do. Ron Dodd has a
Speaker 4: rather checkered past. He has been in prison for domestic violence.
Speaker 4: And so he was on parole at the time this occurred.
Speaker 6: Well, now, so Ron Dodd is best friends and works
Speaker 6: with Stephen Barbie. Now tell us about that horrible day,
Speaker 6: because you you you do start at the beginning and
Speaker 6: tell us what happened that day according to what you've
Speaker 6: written in your book.
Speaker 4: Okay. It was February the eighteenth, two thousand and five,
Speaker 4: and Lisa was home with Jayden. Jayden was asleep. Lisa
Speaker 4: had been on the computer, uh and that the police
Speaker 4: forensics people verified that she had been on the computer
Speaker 4: about eleven thirty that night, checking out babysites. They had
Speaker 4: both been sick, as I said, they were both battling congestion.
Speaker 4: And that's significant because of the events that happened. Later,
Speaker 4: just around midnight, she heard a knock at the door
Speaker 4: and it was Stephen Barbie, so she let him in.
Speaker 4: Obviously she knew him, and he told her that he
Speaker 4: had come to talk with her about her demands for
Speaker 4: the baby. Barbie told Ron Dodd that he planned to
Speaker 4: get Lisa angry and that if she could pick a
Speaker 4: fight with him, then he could eliminate her and eliminate
Speaker 4: his problem. And at one time when he said he
Speaker 4: didn't think he could go through with it taking care
Speaker 4: of Lisa as in taking her out. Ron Dodd even
Speaker 4: suggested they hire hitman to do it. He didn't know Jaden.
Speaker 4: He had never met Jaden because every weekend Jaden spent
Speaker 4: in Dallas with his grandmother, and he was unaware when
Speaker 4: he went to the house on the eighteenth February that
Speaker 4: Jaden was there and that he was asleep in the
Speaker 4: next room. He began a fight with Lisa. Lisa kicked him.
Speaker 4: He punched Lisa in the nose. He broke her nose.
Speaker 4: A huge fight ensued. She was covered in bruises. She
Speaker 4: had a broken arm, a broken finger, a busted lip,
Speaker 4: just bruising all over her body. She really fought him,
Speaker 4: and she was fighting for her baby. Finally he got
Speaker 4: her down on the floor, face down and pressured her
Speaker 4: into the floor, and because she was having trouble breathing
Speaker 4: because of the congestion and also because of being seven
Speaker 4: and a half months pregnant, the baby shifted upward and
Speaker 4: it blocked off oliver air supply and she was suffocated
Speaker 4: there on the carpet of her living room. The blood
Speaker 4: came from her nose and it had bled quite profusely
Speaker 4: and made quite a stain on the carpet. While he
Speaker 4: is battling Lisa, Jayden comes in and he starts screaming,
Speaker 4: what are you doing to my mommy? Stop hurting my mommy.
Speaker 4: And Jaden was tossed over on to the sofa and
Speaker 4: his hand was Barbie's hand was put over Jadon's.
Speaker 3: Big Is said is Ryan. I'm not sure if you
Speaker 3: know this about me, but I'm a bit of a
Speaker 3: fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but
Speaker 3: I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the
Speaker 3: truth is out there, I can tell you about my
Speaker 3: favorite place to have fun. Chumba Casino. They have hunt
Speaker 3: the risk of social casino style games to choose from,
Speaker 3: with new games released each week. You can play for free, anytime, anywhere,
Speaker 3: and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses.
Speaker 3: So join me and the fun. Sign up now at
Speaker 3: Chumba casino dot com.
Speaker 2: Don't we just necessary Dad?
Speaker 6: Where everybody lost the terms conditions eating.
Speaker 4: Plus mouth probably his nose at the same time, but
Speaker 4: even if he didn't, the congestion kept him from breathing,
Speaker 4: and Jaydon also was suffocated. When they were dead, he
Speaker 4: ran outside, thinking that Ron Dodd would be there, and
Speaker 4: Rod was not there. He had gone to dinner with Teresa.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 4: Barbie tried to call him to come over and help him.
Speaker 4: Ron never answered the phone, so Barbie decided he had
Speaker 4: to leave, and the only way he had of leaving
Speaker 4: was in Lisa's suv, which was a Dodge Drango. He
Speaker 4: put the bodies in the back of the Durango. Then
Speaker 4: he went into the kitchen. He got cleaning products from
Speaker 4: underneath the kitchen sink, and he scrubbed the carpet in
Speaker 4: the living room. All of the blood would not come up.
Speaker 4: That's why there was a pink tinge when the police arrived.
Speaker 4: Soaked it rather well and used a lot of soap,
Speaker 4: so it had this residue on it. He then tried
Speaker 4: to vacuum it, and there were vacuum marks in the
Speaker 4: carpet and it still showed. So he moved the coffee
Speaker 4: table over and put it on top of the stain,
Speaker 4: hoping that no one would notice it. When the police
Speaker 4: arrived and the forensic team arrived, they found blood spatters,
Speaker 4: small blood spatters on several pieces of the furniture, on
Speaker 4: the walls, on the floor, on the sofa. It was
Speaker 4: quite a fight that Lisa had put up. But that's
Speaker 4: uh did he After he got the bodies in the suv,
Speaker 4: he drove out of Fort Worth. This isn't far north
Speaker 4: fort Worth when this happened, he drew. He drove even
Speaker 4: further north into southern Denton County, the adjacent county and uh,
Speaker 4: that's where Ron Dodd he finally reached by phone and
Speaker 4: Rod told him where he could go to dispose of
Speaker 4: the bodies.
Speaker 6: And so that's what he did.
Speaker 4: That's what he did. He picked a rural area, very
Speaker 4: secluded and right outside justin Texas, which is in south
Speaker 4: Denton County. He had to climb over to Barbara Fences,
Speaker 4: uh to give them to their final resting place. But
Speaker 4: that's where he put them.
Speaker 6: Now, what happened with the this is very interesting what
Speaker 6: happened now with Deputy sheriff David Browner or Browner and
Speaker 6: Steven Barbie and who is David Weekly Vid.
Speaker 4: Blanner is a Sheriff's deputy was Ditton County and he
Speaker 4: was on patrol in the southern portion of the county.
Speaker 4: Like I said, it's a very rural community, just dotted
Speaker 4: with houses lots of ranch land, underbrush, trees, that kind
Speaker 4: of thing. It's very unusual, particularly at two o'clock in
Speaker 4: the morning, to see anyone out walking. And he saw
Speaker 4: this man walking down the access road of Interstate thirty five,
Speaker 4: and he stopped and he asked the man who he was,
Speaker 4: and the man told him he was David Weekly. Well,
Speaker 4: David Weekly is a prominent home builder here in the
Speaker 4: North Texas area. And in actuality, it was Stephen Barbie.
Speaker 4: He just thought of the first name that came to
Speaker 4: his mind. Now, I will say that David Weekly had
Speaker 4: billboards along the interstate advertising his homes and so forth,
Speaker 4: and it could have been that Barbie looked up and
Speaker 4: saw the name on a billboard at that particular time.
Speaker 4: But that's the name he gave him, and he gave
Speaker 4: him a day of birth. The deputy went back to
Speaker 4: his patrol car, called dispatch, ran that name and birth
Speaker 4: date and came back with nothing. And so the deputy
Speaker 4: went back to talk with the man and find out
Speaker 4: exactly who he really was. And then that's when Barbie
Speaker 4: took off running.
Speaker 6: How did he get away, Yes, he did.
Speaker 4: He took Bronner on quite a chase, jumped over a
Speaker 4: barb wire fence a lot of bob ed wire in Texas,
Speaker 4: you could tell, and ripped his jeans, ran through lots
Speaker 4: of underbrush, and of course Bronner has, you know, his
Speaker 4: vest on and his gun and his radio and everything else,
Speaker 4: and he's having a hard time catching up with this guy.
Speaker 4: And he finally loses him in a very thick forested
Speaker 4: area right there off the interstate and he just he
Speaker 4: just lost in there.
Speaker 6: Luckily, in the pursuit, though his unbeknownst, the officer was
Speaker 6: captured some video footage on his cam that later would
Speaker 6: prove very important. Now, what did the officers officers video
Speaker 6: cam capture while chasing Stephen Barbie.
Speaker 4: Well, I assume that probably all patrol cars are equipped
Speaker 4: this way, but once they get out of their patrol car,
Speaker 4: the video cam automatically starts, and so it was recording
Speaker 4: the entire session between Deputy Brauner and Stephen Barbie. Uh
Speaker 4: So it got videotape of this man, the way he
Speaker 4: was dressed, his builds, his mannerisms, everything, and so they
Speaker 4: had a not just a description of this person, but
Speaker 4: they had actual pictures of this person that Bronner had
Speaker 4: stopped at two o'clock in the morning, right off at
Speaker 4: inter State thirty five. And that was important because two
Speaker 4: days later they found Lisa's suv where Barbie had ditched
Speaker 4: it in a creek, and that was very near where
Speaker 4: the steputy had stopped him that morning.
Speaker 6: Right now, you say, the police have Stephen Barbie in
Speaker 6: their sights, and now they had an opportunity to have
Speaker 6: Stephen barbarade, but he's on the run. Now do they
Speaker 6: make that connection? And what did the police do next
Speaker 6: in their.
Speaker 4: Investigation, Well, they didn't really make the connection at that
Speaker 4: particular time because it hadn't even been put out. Of course,
Speaker 4: no one even knew Lisa was missing at two o'clock
Speaker 4: in the morning. It wasn't until four o'clock that afternoon
Speaker 4: that she didn't show it for her party. So really
Speaker 4: Bronner never thought about it except that he had it. Well,
Speaker 4: then when they located her car in Ditton County and
Speaker 4: discovered that it was that of missing Lisa Underwood and
Speaker 4: her seven year old child, then Rauner put the two
Speaker 4: together and he went to the scene where the vehicle
Speaker 4: had been found and where the Fort Worth Police were
Speaker 4: inspecting the scene and investigating, and he turned over the
Speaker 4: video recording to them and said, I stopped this man
Speaker 4: at two o'clock in the morning, and it may be
Speaker 4: if some use to you, And honestly it.
Speaker 6: Was right now. Stephen Barbie's on the run. What does
Speaker 6: he do next? Does he does he talk to his wife?
Speaker 6: I was curious to did he does he call his
Speaker 6: wife at all?
Speaker 4: No? He never called Trish. He called Ron Dodd to
Speaker 4: come get him. He stopped and was hiding by a
Speaker 4: storage building that was on Annie Boy Street, which is
Speaker 4: near the University of North Texas here in Denton. He
Speaker 4: called Ron God told him to come get hi. Ron
Speaker 4: came and got him and took him back to Teresa
Speaker 4: Barbie's house where he had left his vehicle. And he
Speaker 4: got in his truck and drove back to the house
Speaker 4: that he shared with trishn the two kids, and he
Speaker 4: went to bed.
Speaker 6: And then what happened?
Speaker 4: Well, the next morning he got up and cook breakfast
Speaker 4: for the kids and took the dog to obedient school,
Speaker 4: took the kids to a movie, went shopping and it
Speaker 4: was life as usual.
Speaker 6: Wow. Now, how did the police proceed here? And and
Speaker 6: what based on the crime scene evidence, what do they
Speaker 6: think has happened? And how do they proceed.
Speaker 4: Well, based on the condition that her home was in
Speaker 4: they had put on an amber alert for Lisa and Jaden,
Speaker 4: and then when the car was discovered, they were certain
Speaker 4: they felt like foul play had been involved because of
Speaker 4: her stains of the house and so forth. But when
Speaker 4: they found her vehicle abandoned, they were certain that something
Speaker 4: terrible had happened to them, and so they still had
Speaker 4: the amber alert going on. But it was at that
Speaker 4: point they were looking for bodies. They got an anonymous
Speaker 4: tip and as it turned out, that anonymous tip came
Speaker 4: from Ron Dodd. But the police got an anonymous tip
Speaker 4: that Stephen Barbie was responsible for the deaths of Lisa
Speaker 4: and Jaden Underwood, and so that's who. Even with Holly's
Speaker 4: tip and they were thinking of him and had interviewed him,
Speaker 4: he became suddenly the only suspect in the case.
Speaker 6: Why do you think Ron Dodd did what he did?
Speaker 6: He helped them out. I mean, it's it's almost suicide
Speaker 6: because if he admits his his you know, his involvement,
Speaker 6: then he is is under you know, under law. He's
Speaker 6: quite a bit responsible as well. Why did he do this?
Speaker 6: Have you did you ever find.
Speaker 4: Out that well, they both say someject different Ron Dodd
Speaker 4: says that he did it because he felt guilty, that
Speaker 4: he for his part in it. Stephen Barbie, who recandied
Speaker 4: everything that will eventually talk about and his interview with
Speaker 4: the police, said that actually Ron Dodd was the one
Speaker 4: that he had killed them, and so that in other words,
Speaker 4: the tip from Ron Dodd was to throw the police
Speaker 4: off of him and onto Stephen Barbie, and that that's
Speaker 4: why that had happened. Ron Dodd. Sheila Underwood confronted in court,
Speaker 4: and she believes that he is not responsible for the deaths,
Speaker 4: but she does hold him responsible for everything else that occurred,
Speaker 4: and even prior to the deaths, because he knew what
Speaker 4: was being planned. He knew they that the plan was
Speaker 4: to get rid of Lisa Underwood and the problem of
Speaker 4: her child.
Speaker 6: Right now, tell us about this? Does the Stephen Barbie arrest?
Speaker 6: Tell us what happens?
Speaker 4: Okay? Stephen and Ron were both going to Tyler, Texas,
Speaker 4: which is a couple of hours east of Dallas, to
Speaker 4: trim trees. It was another government contract with the state
Speaker 4: to trim the trees along the highway line, and so
Speaker 4: they were going there on Monday morning to start the service.
Speaker 4: He also took with him Trish and the two kids,
Speaker 4: and they were going to spend a few days together
Speaker 4: in Tyler. When he wasn't working, the detective on the case,
Speaker 4: who was Mike Carroll, called Barbie and said, we need
Speaker 4: to get a statement from you. And Barbie wanted to
Speaker 4: know why, and he says, well, because we know that
Speaker 4: you knew her and that you had dated her, and
Speaker 4: we just want a statement from you. And so Barbie said, okay,
Speaker 4: but I'm in Tyler. And so Carol arranged to meet
Speaker 4: Barbie at the Walmart parking lot in Tyler, Texas about
Speaker 4: four o'clock in the afternoon. They go there, There's a
Speaker 4: detective Jamison that interviewed Ron Dodd, another detective that interviewed Barbie,
Speaker 4: and Mike Carroll interviewed Trish Barbie, and then he asked
Speaker 4: them to follow him to the Tyler Police Department so
Speaker 4: that they could get the statement from him. Right they
Speaker 4: already had a digress warrant drawn up based on the tip,
Speaker 4: based on the evidence, based on the video camera film
Speaker 4: of him, and so forth. They had the arrest warrant
Speaker 4: already in their pocket when they went to Tyler. They
Speaker 4: met him in the police department parking lot. They took
Speaker 4: him inside and that's where they interrogated him. They wanted
Speaker 4: to do it there because it would be under videotape.
Speaker 4: They put Ron Dodd in one room and Barbie in
Speaker 4: another room and individually interviewed them.
Speaker 6: Now, it's very important to the trial and any trial
Speaker 6: is what happens when they detective question the suspect, especially
Speaker 6: when the objective is always to elicit a confession from
Speaker 6: a suspect. Ideally, what happens in this case, Well.
Speaker 4: First of all, there were several things. But first, Mike
Speaker 4: Carroll lied to Stephen Barbie, which is not uncommon. Police
Speaker 4: slight to said respects all the time in order it
Speaker 4: yeah there, it's okay, you know, it's a fair game.
Speaker 4: And but he told him that he had already been
Speaker 4: identified on a videotape from a Denton County detective, I
Speaker 4: mean deputy's video cam. H really, in essence, it hadn't.
Speaker 4: They thought it was him. They were sure it was him,
Speaker 4: but they were going to bring the deputy to Tyler.
Speaker 4: Uh and actually I d Barbie if he didn't admit it.
Speaker 4: So Barbie did admit that well, Yes, I had had
Speaker 4: trouble with my pickup truck. It sputtered out and I
Speaker 4: was walking along the highway to get to a phone
Speaker 4: to call someone.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 4: That was the first thing is that he had lied
Speaker 4: to it. Now Barbie got very very upset later on
Speaker 4: when he found out that he had lied. He thought
Speaker 4: that was, you know, foul. The other thing was that
Speaker 4: everything was videotaped. For an hour and a half, they
Speaker 4: videotaped Barbie and they discussed a number of things. They
Speaker 4: discussed his lifestyle, They discussed Teresa, they discussed Trish, they
Speaker 4: talked about Lisa everything, and then they went in and
Speaker 4: they talked to Ron Dodd, and Ron Dodd told them
Speaker 4: that Barbie had killed the two. He told them where
Speaker 4: that it was off of four oh eight off of
Speaker 4: I thirty five, and justin Texas.
Speaker 6: So he gave them the location of the bodies, not
Speaker 6: in detail.
Speaker 4: But he told them that it was off of this
Speaker 4: certain exit off of Road four oh at County Road
Speaker 4: four oh eight, and that was right off of Interstate
Speaker 4: thirty five. So they knew basically the direction of where
Speaker 4: it was. He didn't ten point the location. Then they
Speaker 4: went back in and They told Barbie that they knew
Speaker 4: that he had killed them, that he had they knew
Speaker 4: where the bodies were, and that he needed to talk
Speaker 4: to him.
Speaker 6: Uh sorry, why did they tell him? Did they did
Speaker 6: they say to him, listen, your friend has rolled over
Speaker 6: on you, Ron Dodd, Or did they keep that to
Speaker 6: themselves and just keep hammering that they knew, they knew,
Speaker 6: they knew.
Speaker 4: It was more that they knew, they knew, they knew.
Speaker 4: He knew Ron was next door, he knew they were
Speaker 4: talking to Ron. I'm sure that he probably knew Ron
Speaker 4: was saying. Barbie claims that he didn't give up Ron
Speaker 4: Dodd because he was afraid of Ron DoD, and that
Speaker 4: Ron Dodd had threatened his family, his mother and his
Speaker 4: father if he ever told so. That's what he eventually
Speaker 4: said after he had told them the incidents of the evening,
Speaker 4: But after they came in to tell him what Ron
Speaker 4: had said and that they knew what was going on,
Speaker 4: they asked him if he need takes him to the restroom,
Speaker 4: which is down in maze of halls, And in that restroom,
Speaker 4: Mike Carroll says that Stephen Barbie confessed now only time
Speaker 4: that there was no tape running.
Speaker 6: Sure, what did what did he say that? Stephen Barbie said,
Speaker 6: for the motive, for the reason is this, That's where
Speaker 6: all this motive comes from from that confession.
Speaker 4: That the motive was that Lisa was going to tell
Speaker 4: Trish about the baby and that she was going to
Speaker 4: ruin their marriage, and that he loved Trish and he
Speaker 4: loved his family and he would do anything for them,
Speaker 4: and that was his motive. So uh, you know. Then
Speaker 4: at that point they take him back, They take him
Speaker 4: to a computer and they pull up map quest. They
Speaker 4: want to know where it is that the bodies can
Speaker 4: be found. He gives them a vague description of where
Speaker 4: that is, sort of like Ron Dodd did. And then
Speaker 4: they take him back into the room back on videotape,
Speaker 4: and they're talking to him there uh and and there
Speaker 4: he says that he didn't mean to kill Lisa, that
Speaker 4: it was more of an accident, but he admits that
Speaker 4: Jaden was not, that this was a witness more or
Speaker 4: less and that had to be taken care of. He
Speaker 4: admitted cleaning up the area, He admitted taking the bodies
Speaker 4: to justin Uh. He admitted calling Ron Dodd. Ron helped
Speaker 4: him throw the bodies over the bob war fence. He
Speaker 4: did not help him dig the grave. Barbie Doug a grave.
Speaker 4: He put Lisa in and then he put Jayden in
Speaker 4: on top of Lisa with his head resting on Lisa's shoulder,
Speaker 4: and then he covered them with brush and debris that
Speaker 4: was there in the area, and he said a prayer
Speaker 4: for them.
Speaker 6: Well, now I'm just curious, did the police did. What
Speaker 6: did Trisha have to say when she was notified that
Speaker 6: her husband was was under arrest for killing this woman
Speaker 6: he had dated his ex girlfriend whatever you want to
Speaker 6: call her, and the pregnant woman being pregnant, and also
Speaker 6: her child. What did she say?
Speaker 4: Well, at first she didn't know about the child. They
Speaker 4: Mike Carroll just told her about Lisa. She was visibly
Speaker 4: and I've seen the videotape of her going in and
Speaker 4: talking to Stephen visibly upset, screaming at him. Why why
Speaker 4: they're both crying hysterically and he just only say that
Speaker 4: he loves her, And they just told each other and
Speaker 4: cry most of the time. It wasn't until after she
Speaker 4: left the police department that she learned about Jade's death.
Speaker 4: She stood by him for a while. She didn't believe it,
Speaker 4: and the defense had asked her not to divorce him
Speaker 4: until after the trial. But about a month before the
Speaker 4: trial began, she had filed for divorce and it was final.
Speaker 4: And she did a ten part of the trial.
Speaker 6: Oh, she did, but not very much of a supportive role.
Speaker 4: No, not a supportive role at all.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 4: No, by then she had accepted that he had killed him.
Speaker 6: Now, we won't get into the trial. He's only got
Speaker 6: about nine minutes. But I want to get into who
Speaker 6: attended the trial. I want to know who are the
Speaker 6: witnesses for the defense and for the prosper cution. Tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about who attended to watch Who
Speaker 6: supported Stephen Barbie, if anyone tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about that, the.
Speaker 4: Supporters that he had. Of course, for his mother and
Speaker 4: father who were there every day, who really had a
Speaker 4: tough time. His father had been diagnosed with cancer by
Speaker 4: then it was in very ill help has since died,
Speaker 4: and so his mother is now alone. She has no one. No,
Speaker 4: she has a sister out of state. That's all. So
Speaker 4: they were there. A friend of the family was there
Speaker 4: who also happened to be the head of the Christian
Speaker 4: school that he had gone to. His cousin Jennifer was
Speaker 4: there and she testified for him as a character witness.
Speaker 4: They really didn't have any defense witnesses at all during
Speaker 4: the guilt innocent stays, and they brought in several character
Speaker 4: witnesses during the penalty phase.
Speaker 6: Now, the confession that Stephen Barbie has is contentious at trial,
Speaker 6: and I won't give away because it's incrediblely your coverage
Speaker 6: of the trial, but needless to say, before the trial
Speaker 6: and we call it, maybe call it and can a
Speaker 6: little different. It's of what deer. What's deemed admissible at
Speaker 6: a trial is what we call of what deer here.
Speaker 6: But obviously it's a little bit it's before the trial
Speaker 6: itself that this confession has decided on it. I won't
Speaker 6: give it away, But the confession whether Mike Carroll actually
Speaker 6: did speak with him in the washroom and what exactly
Speaker 6: was said, that becomes an issue at trial, doesn't it.
Speaker 4: Yes. In fact, the defense used that as their total
Speaker 4: defense was to impeach Mike Carroll's testimony and the record
Speaker 4: keeping of Mike Carroll and the the way that Fort
Speaker 4: Worth keeps their police records, their notes on the scene
Speaker 4: and so forth. That was pretty much the whole defense
Speaker 4: strategy was to just make it seem as though Mike
Speaker 4: Carroll was not telling the truth. This confession never occurred.
Speaker 6: And this becomes a death penalty case. Right, he qualified
Speaker 6: for this death penalty case? Yes, okay, yeah, So I
Speaker 6: mean Texas does execute people too at a fairly Like
Speaker 6: a lot of states, they really delay the process, But
Speaker 6: Texas is known for fairly swift justice, isn't it? Relatively speaking?
Speaker 7: It is?
Speaker 4: It used to be years ago that and there are
Speaker 4: still men on death row that have been there over
Speaker 4: twenty years. But now because of the way the appeals
Speaker 4: process has changed, generally speaking, it's about six years before
Speaker 4: they receive their execution.
Speaker 6: I think I have a caller here. I'm going to
Speaker 6: see maybe they have a question for you. Pat. Okay,
Speaker 6: good evening. Hello, did you have a question for my guest?
Speaker 7: Hello?
Speaker 4: Hi?
Speaker 6: Did you have a question from Did you have a
Speaker 6: question for our guest?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 4: I do. Hello Tina, Hello, Pah, recognize that voice.
Speaker 7: What would you expect to get through this without me
Speaker 7: piping in?
Speaker 4: This is Tina Church. Tina Church was a consultant for
Speaker 4: the Barbie family. She stood by them and it's still
Speaker 4: standing by them through this whole ordeal.
Speaker 7: And I'm also I'm also the investigator on this case.
Speaker 4: Yes, she is quite well versed in this case.
Speaker 6: Well, welcome to the program, Tina.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you. A couple of things, Pat. That one
Speaker 7: thing that you've got to mention when the tape was rolling,
Speaker 7: Ron Dodd's car is caught on camera on that police
Speaker 7: video that can Yes, that's correct. And you personally have
Speaker 7: talked to Stephen and as have I, and he certainly
Speaker 7: has a different story and all of the things that
Speaker 7: Pat is a very good writer. She and I have
Speaker 7: been like sisters for many, many years. However, there's a
Speaker 7: lot of things about this case that only the defense
Speaker 7: is aware of. It is a lot of things our
Speaker 7: perception versus reality. At this point, do you think.
Speaker 6: That Ron Dodd? Do you think Ron Dodd is the
Speaker 6: is the real culprit at this point?
Speaker 4: Yes, we do.
Speaker 7: You know, first of all, there is yet testing to
Speaker 7: be done. There is physical evidence that is yet to
Speaker 7: be tested. We know that the video has was stopped, started,
Speaker 7: stopped started during this alleged confession. I know that Mike
Speaker 7: Carroll walked into a room and said to Stephen Barbie,
Speaker 7: you're not going to bring that stuff up about Ron
Speaker 7: Dodd again, and it was in such a low.
Speaker 4: Voice, and that was in the book. That is brought
Speaker 4: out in the book that is correct.
Speaker 7: And the one the one thing is Teresa Barbie, his
Speaker 7: first wife, was actually a bigger culprit in this than
Speaker 7: what anyone wants to believe, because I don't know if
Speaker 7: I caught it. Did you talk about how the strap
Speaker 7: was cut on?
Speaker 4: No, we didn't. We didn't get into all of that.
Speaker 4: You know, it's an hour show.
Speaker 7: Well, there were a couple of attempts made on Stephen's
Speaker 7: life by Ron Dodd.
Speaker 4: And and those were all documented in the book.
Speaker 7: Yes, this is absolutely And also Teresa definitely had a
Speaker 7: motive for Stephen to be gone. She had even altered
Speaker 7: an insurance policy to the tune of five million dollars
Speaker 7: or half a million dollars.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, what do you What do you think about
Speaker 6: the assertion that Ron Dodd had a bigger contribution? Pat?
Speaker 6: What do you think?
Speaker 4: I agree that Ron Dodd had more of a part
Speaker 4: in all of this than what the investigators and the
Speaker 4: prosecution thinks. Even she Underwood believes that he has a
Speaker 4: bigger part. It's just that their assertion is that Stephen
Speaker 4: Barbie is the killer. Stephen Barbie is the one that
Speaker 4: was convicted of it. But I don't think that there's
Speaker 4: anyone that's involved in the case that doesn't believe that
Speaker 4: Ron Dodd had a bigger roland that than what he
Speaker 4: claims to have. Those same people also believed that Teresa
Speaker 4: Barbie knew exactly what was happening and never did anything
Speaker 4: to try to stop it, or to notify police or
Speaker 4: to help in any way. And yes, she she had
Speaker 4: motive herself. It's like I said, it just this is
Speaker 4: only in our show, but all those things are covered
Speaker 4: in the book, and it gets into very intricate parts
Speaker 4: of the dynamics of all three of those people and
Speaker 4: their relationship to each other as well.
Speaker 7: And it certainly it is certainly cast out on Stephen
Speaker 7: Barbie's actual guilt, and it can lean to the actual
Speaker 7: innocence because as of today, Stephen Barbie, due to the
Speaker 7: head injury that was sustained because of Ron Dodd cutting
Speaker 7: a strap twenty foot long, still being four hundred pounds
Speaker 7: cracked a hard hat that we believe was done purposely,
Speaker 7: Steven is in a wheelchair today and suffering you know,
Speaker 7: tremendous amount of pain from a non treated injury. And
Speaker 7: it all happened like one month before this incident, and
Speaker 7: this was only one attempt on Stephen's life.
Speaker 6: Well, well it's incredible, Tina. We've only got about a
Speaker 6: few seconds left. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Tina Church for calling in and uh contributing to the program,
Speaker 6: and thank you very much. And I also want to
Speaker 6: thank Pat Springer especially for her book talking about Lethal Charmer.
Speaker 6: Incredible story, and thank you for another great interview, Pat,
Speaker 6: And have yourself a good evening.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Dan, good night you too, Tina.
Speaker 6: Have yourself a good evening.
Speaker 7: Talky later Bydbye.
Speaker 6: Bye, byeye you even listening to a program true Murder,
Speaker 6: the most shocking killers in true crime history and the
Speaker 6: authors that have written above them. Good night,