Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: Help?
Speaker 1: What I you? Welcome back to the Occult Rejects Today
Speaker 1: we're joined by Marianna and Christina, the hosts of Sora Mystica,
Speaker 1: a podcast that describes itself as a podcast exploring modern
Speaker 1: spirituality through the eyes of the mystic sister. Their show
Speaker 1: brings together astrology, caro dreams, myth depth, psychology, art, literature,
Speaker 1: and the occult in a way that feels both scholarly
Speaker 1: and intimate. On their public site, they described the show
Speaker 1: as a series of insightful, imaginative conversations meant to help
Speaker 1: listeners explore the rich symbolism of the world around them.
Speaker 1: I truly do think, and I really do mean this,
Speaker 1: that if I really do like this show, I really
Speaker 1: do think you'll like this, so I highly suggest to
Speaker 1: check it out. Marianna Lewis presents herself publicly as an
Speaker 1: archetypal Taoist, terrorist, terrorists, psycho, spiritual educator, and sacred feminist
Speaker 1: with over a decade of scholarship in depth psychology, A
Speaker 1: Coult philosophy, and archetypal theory. Christina Ferrella describes herself as
Speaker 1: a counseling astrologer, astrology educator, an author whose work blends
Speaker 1: astrology with mythology, art history, and literature. Together, sore Mistica
Speaker 1: has become a space for conversations on symbols like alchemy,
Speaker 1: the Great Mother, the Collective, Unconscious Reversals, retrogrades, dream language,
Speaker 1: and magic itself. Now, before I introduce the rest of
Speaker 1: the panel and the guests, I do have a few announcements.
Speaker 1: On Saturday, April twenty fifth, the Southern the Southeastern Masonic
Speaker 1: Supposium is happening at Asheville Masonic Temple at eighty Broad
Speaker 1: Street Broadway Street in Ashville, North Carolina, and I will
Speaker 1: be there in person, So come down meet me and
Speaker 1: the rest of the true and who will be speaking there.
Speaker 1: We got John Michael Greer he will be speaking, he
Speaker 1: is the keynote speaker. Then we got my boy who's
Speaker 1: been on the show before and he's coming on more
Speaker 1: Cown Concrete from American Eastoteric. He will be there as well.
Speaker 1: And my boy Ike Baker, He's going to be speaking
Speaker 1: along with Tom Carter. So we got four speakers that day.
Speaker 1: If you can make it, come on down, check me out.
Speaker 1: I'll smoke on with you all right. Also want to
Speaker 1: remind people about the website if you're into reading. We
Speaker 1: have tons of information and multiple contributors, and we finally
Speaker 1: got t shirts. T shirts up on the site if
Speaker 1: you're interested and fun fact, the art is all based
Speaker 1: on the eyeball. So now let me introduce the rest
Speaker 1: of the panel and the guests. All right, Kaiva, what
Speaker 1: is going on? Kaiva? How are you? Please? Let everybody
Speaker 1: know who you are.
Speaker 3: Thank hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: My name is Kaiva Rose and I practiced tarot and
Speaker 2: astrology and you can find me on Instagram and Facebook
Speaker 2: and YouTube. I do weekly astrology videos and I post
Speaker 2: some daily as well. If you like a reading, you
Speaker 2: can contact me at eleven Kaiba Rose three dot com
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: I look forward to chanting with you all.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate you coming on and
Speaker 1: brand my man maggize in the media. What is going on, Sir.
Speaker 4: Sah Nick, Thank you for having me as always, love
Speaker 4: the show, love the place, love everything we do here.
Speaker 4: We are the occult rejects of the rejects. We are
Speaker 4: the heretics of all sorts. Everyone head over to Magus
Speaker 4: in the Media, where we break down myth, magic and
Speaker 4: meaning in the stories that we all love. Do the thing.
Speaker 4: I'm on X trying to take down all the craziness
Speaker 4: on both extremes as well as my Instagram where all
Speaker 4: the clips are put up there. We're doing it, and
Speaker 4: we're doing it together. In this asia chaos, there's only
Speaker 4: one way out, and that's to become a magician, warrior, king, lover, queen,
Speaker 4: whoever you are, and let's do it together. I'm excited
Speaker 4: to be a part of this panel here today. Hello
Speaker 4: both of you. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Brandon. I always love your introductions.
Speaker 1: Since we've had Marianna on before, I think we'll saw
Speaker 1: with Christina. Christina, please, if there was anything that I
Speaker 1: left out or anything you like to promote, please just
Speaker 1: introduce yourself and let people know what's up.
Speaker 5: Oh sure, Hi, very grateful to be here with you
Speaker 5: all and happy to see my friend Marianna on the screen.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I'm an astrologer. I am actually a first time soon
Speaker 5: to be first time author. I just wrote a book
Speaker 5: called Divination for Dummies, like for the Dummies series and
Speaker 5: it is coming out April twenty eighth, and so if
Speaker 5: anybody is curious about a kind of really good primer
Speaker 5: on all things divinatory, meaning like intros into things like
Speaker 5: tarot and astrology, but also working with pendulums, scrying, dream interpretation,
Speaker 5: the e ching, casting charms, working with lots all of
Speaker 5: these different topics, palmistry. Everything is in there, everything that
Speaker 5: like my teenage witchcraft self would have really enjoyed having
Speaker 5: in one book. Yeah, So that comes out, yeah, quite
Speaker 5: soon at the end of April. I also teach classes
Speaker 5: on an ongoing basis in astrology and also around the
Speaker 5: topics of myth and ritual. And my next class that's
Speaker 5: going to be starting also in late April, is called
Speaker 5: the School of Astrological Arcana. It's kind of like my
Speaker 5: I call it my big class. It's like the top
Speaker 5: to bottom everything you want to having your toolkit if
Speaker 5: you are a budding astrologer. So that is starting really
Speaker 5: soon April twenty ninth. So you can find all the
Speaker 5: info about that on my website, which is Christinaferrella dot com.
Speaker 5: And I think that's it for now.
Speaker 1: That's a wow. You're a very busy woman. You got
Speaker 1: a lot going on, especially in April.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know what's going on. With my Stars
Speaker 5: in April. But I'm clearly having some transits.
Speaker 1: So if you don't mind me asking who you do
Speaker 1: publish the book.
Speaker 5: With, It's Wiley. That's the company that publishes all of
Speaker 5: those dummies books. Yeah, yep. There. They seem to have
Speaker 5: like a cool acquisitions editor on board because they're branching
Speaker 5: out into other more occult territories. So I know that
Speaker 5: I've seen, you know, like a kind of herb craft
Speaker 5: book for dummies out recently by someone who I know
Speaker 5: on the internet. There's folk witch craft for Dummies book
Speaker 5: that just came out, So I know that they're just
Speaker 5: kind of it seems like they're yeah, just getting into
Speaker 5: this world.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, if you want, we'll have to get you
Speaker 1: on if you want, we can promote this book that's
Speaker 1: coming out in the futures. Yeah, I know. I think
Speaker 1: that is also just the amount of stuff you mentioned.
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, there's a lot in there. All right, good,
Speaker 1: good for you, Christina. That's also making it happen all right,
Speaker 1: doing Mariatta, that's uh, what's up with you? What's new
Speaker 1: with you since the last.
Speaker 6: Time your own Oh well, my book came out.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 6: So that's really exciting, Tara, And the Psychology of the
Speaker 6: Soul is out and it has good reviews coming in.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've noticed that myself on social media. I've seen
Speaker 1: between you and and Cherry Cherry that we had on
Speaker 1: both of you is a lot of people are raving
Speaker 1: about your books.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's really it's just wild. I mean, it's liked.
Speaker 6: Good for you actually read this? What are you talking about?
Speaker 6: Why would you do? How would you read that?
Speaker 1: I don't want to read my own stuff.
Speaker 6: Is so strange. But that is out. And then also,
Speaker 6: like Christine, I'm teaching a big class in April. We
Speaker 6: always do that somehow, we like like to each other
Speaker 6: to each other all the time, We're like, oh, I'm
Speaker 6: doing this, are you doing that? And then always is overlapping.
Speaker 5: I think it's like a spring seasonal thing. It's just
Speaker 5: like new energy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's And it's been such a miserable winter
Speaker 6: here on the East Coast, so I think everybody's looking
Speaker 6: for something fun to do. So I have my Archetypal
Speaker 6: Terror School, which is like my big program that I teach,
Speaker 6: coming out April nineteenth. So I'm in the middle of
Speaker 6: launching that and telling people about that, and so that's
Speaker 6: that's what's happening for me.
Speaker 1: Awesome, good for you for you. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: which one of you is wanting answer this, but I
Speaker 1: did kind of have it in the intro and I
Speaker 1: took it out, so I thought it'd be interesting to
Speaker 1: hear it from your side. How did you two meet?
Speaker 6: We went to grad school together, so yeah, so we
Speaker 6: were both kind of like, I don't know what to
Speaker 6: do with my life. So we went to grad school,
Speaker 6: which is what you do when you don't want you
Speaker 6: know what to do with your life.
Speaker 5: I guess, Yeah, when you're having a mental breakdown because
Speaker 5: you hate everything you've decided to do, you go to
Speaker 5: grad school.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we were both studying like Western intellectual traditions
Speaker 6: and like all this kind of weird out there stuff.
Speaker 6: We actually were taking a class together called Dreaming in
Speaker 6: the Middle Ages. So we met in this class and
Speaker 6: she did presentation of the fool card in the Tarot,
Speaker 6: and I got very jealous because she was smart and
Speaker 6: knew more about the taro than I did, so I
Speaker 6: was I was learning about the taro. And then we
Speaker 6: got a drink at some point and we're like, oh, no,
Speaker 6: actually we're friends.
Speaker 5: And so then I didn't say oh no, I said,
Speaker 5: oh wow, yeah, But.
Speaker 6: I know.
Speaker 1: She ended up liking you.
Speaker 6: I know what happens to people that I'm like, I'm
Speaker 6: not gonna like you a lot.
Speaker 1: That's awesome though, Yeah, that's what I had. That you
Speaker 1: guys met in a class together. That's pretty cool. That's
Speaker 1: pretty cool. That's awesome. So I guess you both kind
Speaker 1: of also came from different you both come from different
Speaker 1: but related disciplines kind of tarot astrology. But now you
Speaker 1: know where do your approaches naturally overlap and where do
Speaker 1: you think you both challenge each other?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can answer that, I think, or I can
Speaker 5: This is my version of the answer. I think that
Speaker 5: we both really, I really think it's important to have
Speaker 5: an archetypal perspective in our readings. And I don't think
Speaker 5: that we're totally unique in that, but I do think
Speaker 5: that there are a lot of astrologers and terror readers
Speaker 5: who use those tools as maybe something a little bit
Speaker 5: more of like a quick fit of insight of information.
Speaker 5: And I think that what Mariann and I, you know,
Speaker 5: try to do, is like find the archetypal through line
Speaker 5: or archetypal thread, whether you're working with the symbols of
Speaker 5: the taro or the symbols of the needle chart. And
Speaker 5: for me as an astrologer, I really really love and
Speaker 5: rely on the language of mythology and just mystic symbolism
Speaker 5: in general, and I bring that into my sessions. And
Speaker 5: so when Marianne and I were kind of cultivating our
Speaker 5: practices and talking about what's important and what inspires us
Speaker 5: as readers, it's like finding that story for people, or
Speaker 5: finding that symbol or finding that like you know, dream
Speaker 5: memory for a client or a friend or whoever you're
Speaker 5: reading for. And you know, I think that that's like
Speaker 5: our most obvious place of overlap, right, Does that make
Speaker 5: sense Rin?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. I think that we have the same perspective
Speaker 6: of like there's mystery and there's magic, and there's enchantment
Speaker 6: in life that goes beyond just like oh this means this,
Speaker 6: and there's this list of things that mean other things,
Speaker 6: especially when we're working in these divinatory practices like astrology
Speaker 6: and taro, and so we're always looking for the deeper thing.
Speaker 6: I think where we diverge, which is really cool. As
Speaker 6: Christina said, she's has such a huge well of knowledge
Speaker 6: about mythology, and I dabble a little, I don't know
Speaker 6: nearly as much as she does. And I have such
Speaker 6: a strong background in like union psychology and depth psychology,
Speaker 6: which she also dabbles in a little bit, but just
Speaker 6: doesn't necessarily drop from that as much as I do.
Speaker 6: So as she also has like a really rich background
Speaker 6: in like art history and you know, just like culture
Speaker 6: in general, whereas I tend to like pretend I'm living
Speaker 6: in the Middle Ages, I don't know as much. So
Speaker 6: we have these really cool ways that we have the
Speaker 6: same like general focus, but off from really different kind
Speaker 6: of places of interest.
Speaker 5: I think our values are quite similar, and then we
Speaker 5: have different like yeah, we like go off in slightly
Speaker 5: different directions, but what's at the center of our practices
Speaker 5: is very similar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I also do definitely see. I think between
Speaker 1: both of you is how you're not just on the
Speaker 1: scratch the surface, like you were saying. You take this
Speaker 1: stuff a little bit deeper and I think look into
Speaker 1: it a little bit more, which is I think is huge,
Speaker 1: which is why I suggest the show. Did any of
Speaker 1: you guys have a Kaiva a brand? Did any of
Speaker 1: yous have any questions before I keep going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you practice so like, do you practice psychological
Speaker 2: astrology then or do you get more into the traditional
Speaker 2: sense your backgrounds more in psychology? And then do have
Speaker 2: you read Ariel Gutman's book, then Christina the.
Speaker 5: Venus star Point book, No, Mythic Astrology. Yeah, I'm looking
Speaker 5: at it on my shelf right now, so, yes, I have.
Speaker 3: That's one of my Yeah, that's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 5: Wait is that this green though, or is that Aril Gutman? Anyway,
Speaker 5: I'm looking at mythic astrology over there. It doesn't matter good.
Speaker 2: I think it's got a good question. Maybe it is
Speaker 2: screen it might be okay.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'm not wearing my glasses. I love Ariol
Speaker 5: Gutman though, she's really cool. I love her her being
Speaker 5: as star points stuff. So hi, fellow fellow astrologer. I'm
Speaker 5: I think I'm I'm a bit eclectic. So I really
Speaker 5: love psychological and psychoanalytic perspectives because I just can't help myself.
Speaker 5: But I'm also kind of like working within a Hellenistic framework.
Speaker 5: I use whole sign house system when I read for people.
Speaker 5: I do care about planetary dignity, but like not to
Speaker 5: like a very rigid extent. I use the rules of
Speaker 5: the Hellenistic astrological world to kind of frame out my
Speaker 5: practice and then I like jump off from there. I
Speaker 5: would say, so, yeah, I don't know, I have a
Speaker 5: lot of mercury in my chart, so I kind of
Speaker 5: cobble things together. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure? Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love traditional astrology. I have Jupiter in Taurus on
Speaker 2: my MC so it's like tradition is very much and
Speaker 2: I'm a rising so yeah, I'm a Leo rising. So
Speaker 2: I love traditional, but the psychological is definitely beneficial for sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's great to blend both. I mean, the traditional
Speaker 5: astrology stuff just didn't really have a lot of space
Speaker 5: in it for psychological perspectives because people were trying to
Speaker 5: figure out when to like farm or like coronate a
Speaker 5: king or go to battle or whatever with those astrological techniques.
Speaker 5: So I think that we live in a really cool,
Speaker 5: rich time where we get to cross pollinate the old
Speaker 5: traditions with these newer perspectives. And I don't know, it's
Speaker 5: kind of like a little astrological renaissance that we're kind
Speaker 5: of living in right now.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that you say that you think
Speaker 1: we might be going through like another modern renaissance at
Speaker 1: this point.
Speaker 5: In terms of the way I would define that or
Speaker 5: the way I would maybe qualify that as like, there's
Speaker 5: so much great research being done in the field of
Speaker 5: astrology right now. We have a really awesome group of
Speaker 5: like scholarly people doing amazing looking back, translating texts, bringing
Speaker 5: it into the you know, the present moment, recovering techniques
Speaker 5: from thousands of years ago and experimenting with them, and
Speaker 5: you know, like the folks at the Astrology podcast are
Speaker 5: kind of like in the public leading edge of that,
Speaker 5: I would say, and it feels very much like a
Speaker 5: cool time to be an astrologer. I don't know if
Speaker 5: it's a renaissance time for the world right now, but
Speaker 5: I think that it is for the occult arts a
Speaker 5: very interesting moment.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's same thing with Tara. I would say, like
Speaker 6: Tara was was born in the Renaissance essentially, and it's
Speaker 6: been around, but really only it's twenty first century, end
Speaker 6: of the twentieth century that it's like boomed back into
Speaker 6: like contemporary consciousness. So definitely we're definitely having some kind
Speaker 6: of a magical like resurgence Renaissance thing going on.
Speaker 1: No, definitely, I think something. I mean, especially even with
Speaker 1: the way we all connect now, Like I was even
Speaker 1: thinking about the thing that I was on this morning,
Speaker 1: I was like, all these people are able to connect
Speaker 1: when they were so far away from each other other countries.
Speaker 1: You know, if you look at back in the Renaissance,
Speaker 1: how many occultists just went to Germany to go, like
Speaker 1: meet other occultists, talk to other people. Now we just
Speaker 1: do it on the computer. Yeah, you know, so it's
Speaker 1: interesting times for sure, for sure, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially with astrology, we have the technology to make
Speaker 2: charts right, so our job is a lot faster, you know,
Speaker 2: like we can we can choose to hand draw charts,
Speaker 2: but it's nice to have a program that does it
Speaker 2: for you so you can do all the technical work
Speaker 2: of you know, prediction and everything like that.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting.
Speaker 5: I'm really bad at math, so I'm really happy that
Speaker 5: I don't have to hand draw my charts.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I took a class on it, and it
Speaker 2: was like I could do it, but it definitely took
Speaker 2: like an hour to do a chart, which is like
Speaker 2: a long time. And then like time zones are so tricky.
Speaker 2: You have to have a special book because one county
Speaker 2: could have a time zone that is using daylight saving
Speaker 2: time in a state that doesn't use daylight saving time.
Speaker 2: So like it's crazy, and that's where I just like
Speaker 2: time is such a silly thing. If we just went
Speaker 2: by the sun, our life would be so much easier,
Speaker 2: Like we wouldn't be as confused.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just my take.
Speaker 5: I agree, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I have any questions before asking to right your
Speaker 1: show frames itself around the idea of the mystic sister.
Speaker 1: What does that phrase mean to you now beyond the title?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so the mystic sister in Latin soar mystica is
Speaker 6: a term that was given to in like Renaissance alchemy.
Speaker 6: They would often have like the alchemists were male generally
Speaker 6: pretty much, and so there was this reference to the
Speaker 6: sore mystica and a lot of these writings, So like
Speaker 6: the mystic sister, the helper, the assistant basically who was
Speaker 6: a woman who would be around and so her role
Speaker 6: was like this as a support, but also she was
Speaker 6: like the backbone of the work. She was keeping all
Speaker 6: the notes and she was you know, measuring all the
Speaker 6: things and just so instrumental to the alchemist completing his work.
Speaker 6: And Young talked a lot about this archetype of the
Speaker 6: sore mystica and the mystic sister and this kind of
Speaker 6: animal figure almost in his terminology for it. So when
Speaker 6: we were thinking of this podcast, so this is kind
Speaker 6: of what we're doing. We're like being the assistant to
Speaker 6: like people doing their own kind of inter searching and
Speaker 6: inter alchemical work and offering different perspectives and bringing up
Speaker 6: ideas and such. So I think that's that's kind of
Speaker 6: We had a long list of potential names and then
Speaker 6: we were like, yeah, that that feels the best.
Speaker 5: It was Marianna's idea, so yeah, and then like what
Speaker 5: does it mean now beyond the show? That's like that
Speaker 5: that's our relationship and we get to, you know, explore
Speaker 5: all of these weird topics together. And I think also
Speaker 5: like it's created a little alembic of like growing as
Speaker 5: people together too. You know, it's like we cast a
Speaker 5: spell on ourselves with this show and with the title
Speaker 5: names our spells words or spells, and so yeah, I
Speaker 5: think that that's the other side of it, is just
Speaker 5: that like having somebody be able to reflect back to you,
Speaker 5: like the places where you're learning, the places where you
Speaker 5: are curious, the places where you need to still learn
Speaker 5: and grow. Is that sort of like alchemical mystic sister
Speaker 5: relationship that I think is important? And I have three brothers,
Speaker 5: I don't have any sisters, so the stick sister is
Speaker 5: important to me.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, I even remembered sore from being in
Speaker 1: the oto that meant like sister. Yeah. I like the name.
Speaker 1: I think it's whistle nice.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's also cute. Sounds like.
Speaker 1: Uh, Brandon and Kaiva, Do you have anything? I just
Speaker 1: want to I don't want to keep going with that
Speaker 1: and don't forget you guys. All right? Oh you said
Speaker 1: that the podcast kind of grew out of years of
Speaker 1: private conversations. What made you decide those conversations needed to
Speaker 1: become public?
Speaker 5: We kept complaining so much to each other about how
Speaker 5: no one knows anything. I'm just kidding, No, we.
Speaker 1: It sounds like us, you know how it goes?
Speaker 5: No, I know, So that's like the short answer the
Speaker 5: long answer.
Speaker 1: I love.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that really yeah, just coming from a
Speaker 5: place of wanting to share, knowing that like a podcast
Speaker 5: would be a comfortable format for people like I think
Speaker 5: Mariann and I coming from like, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 5: it's like academic background, and then kind of importing that
Speaker 5: maybe academic feel into our classes and maybe even into
Speaker 5: our readings. Accidentally, the podcast is informal, it's casual, and
Speaker 5: even though the topics are kind of deep or complicated,
Speaker 5: it's nice to just hear people talk about things like
Speaker 5: that in an informal way. So I think that that
Speaker 5: was like a bid to differentiate, you know, what we
Speaker 5: were offering people, and yeah, hopefully people like it.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I think that's like a lot of times
Speaker 6: that this kind of material. There's so many classes out
Speaker 6: there now, like so many institutions teaching classes on myths
Speaker 6: and fairy tales and you know, psychology and astrology everything,
Speaker 6: and it's great to learn. But we really, you know,
Speaker 6: we really were just talking about these things between ourselves
Speaker 6: and you know, as friends, and it was like, well,
Speaker 6: I feel like what I would love to listen to
Speaker 6: is just people talking about this without it being as
Speaker 6: Christina is saying, like academic and trying to teach me.
Speaker 6: So now I know, and obviously we talk about a
Speaker 6: lot of things that we've learned, so there is a
Speaker 6: little bit of like for people who may have not
Speaker 6: heard of the stuff that we're talking about, there's a
Speaker 6: little bit of learning there. But we just who wanted
Speaker 6: to be discussion just like, well, what does this mean
Speaker 6: for us for the world. Like when we're talking about
Speaker 6: the symbol of like the maiden, for example, this is
Speaker 6: something everybody knows about, but like, what does it really mean?
Speaker 3: What is it about?
Speaker 6: Why are there all these stories about the maiden stuck
Speaker 6: in a tower? You know, whenever we read about a
Speaker 6: story of the pearl, what is the pearl symbolizing? What
Speaker 6: is the point of that? And exploring, you know, what
Speaker 6: we think about it, what we know from our studies,
Speaker 6: and just kind of feeling reconnected to these symbols and
Speaker 6: to these things that we find in the world that
Speaker 6: have always had me and we know have meaning, but
Speaker 6: we don't really know how to access it. So we
Speaker 6: wanted it to be casual, informal. As Christina said, like
Speaker 6: just just feel like we're talking to people.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love it, I love it. You kind of
Speaker 1: almost went into a little bit of the next question
Speaker 1: I had. Your work is very symbol centered sometimes why
Speaker 1: does symbols matter so much right now, especially in a
Speaker 1: culture that often flattens everything into literalism.
Speaker 6: H good question. I think that's something that we talk
Speaker 6: a lot about on the podcast, is the need to
Speaker 6: re enchant life. I feel like, like, as you said,
Speaker 6: like it's become very flattened into literalism. There's not a
Speaker 6: lot of room for exploration of depth. It's very hard
Speaker 6: to access these things now. And the most poignant way
Speaker 6: I think that we find to get into the enchanted
Speaker 6: center of life, that meaningful center of life is through
Speaker 6: these symbols. This is like the universe. We're always like,
Speaker 6: I don't know how many you know, tarot clients will
Speaker 6: have there, Like I've seen a crow like eight times
Speaker 6: in the last two weeks, and it's like what does
Speaker 6: it mean? And they need it to mean something, and
Speaker 6: they know that there's something that it's connecting to them,
Speaker 6: connecting them to in a bigger way, and so we
Speaker 6: can both explore what that might mean for them personally
Speaker 6: and what it's bringing up, but also what does it mean.
Speaker 6: Throughout time? This is a symbol that's come up over
Speaker 6: and over and over again throughout the centuries, the millennia,
Speaker 6: so there's something in that that we can find, and
Speaker 6: it doesn't really matter if it's true or not. The
Speaker 6: point is that we're getting something enchanting from it and
Speaker 6: feeling reconnected to the cosmos, to the universe, to life,
Speaker 6: to the bigger thing. I think that that's what a
Speaker 6: lot of us are starving for, and so symbols are
Speaker 6: just the easiest access point to that.
Speaker 1: Well for sure, No, I really agree, And I think symbols,
Speaker 1: even somehow in our brain, are psyche I think even
Speaker 1: tap into stuff. Yeah. Do you think like symbols you
Speaker 1: kind of mentioned a little bit now, like ones that
Speaker 1: have been around for a long time, do you think
Speaker 1: they hold like they hold more you know, they gather
Speaker 1: more energy throughout the years as long as they've been
Speaker 1: being used and stuff.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it connects to the idea like Yung's
Speaker 6: idea of archetypes, right. He called symbols are different than archetypes,
Speaker 6: and that symbols are like representations of things, whereas an
Speaker 6: archetype is like a whole bundle of energy.
Speaker 3: They're very connected.
Speaker 6: But we talk about them a little differently. But when
Speaker 6: we're thinking about an archetype, you know, Jung called them
Speaker 6: the primordial thought forms. He called them the psychic organs,
Speaker 6: like these are the things that motivate our experience of
Speaker 6: humanity and are at the base of it. And so
Speaker 6: when we have a symbol that connects us to an
Speaker 6: archetype in some way, or an archetype itself that exists forever,
Speaker 6: like that energy is so apparent, like the Witch. I
Speaker 6: mean that is such an ancient archetype or symbol that's both.
Speaker 6: And yeah, we're still really mystified by that one. We
Speaker 6: still keep breaking it up. They just had what was
Speaker 6: it the movie that came out. I think it's got
Speaker 6: nominated for oscars or something weapons, right, and there's like
Speaker 6: which stuff in that too, and it's like, whoa, why
Speaker 6: is this still so fascinating to us, like millennia later.
Speaker 6: So I do. I do think that the more that
Speaker 6: it stays in our collective consciousness, the more power it has.
Speaker 6: And then we also see the phenomenon of things falling
Speaker 6: out and then rising back, and then falling out and
Speaker 6: rising back depending on whatever is in the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1: Guys on the brand I see.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. What's interesting is that the
Speaker 4: zeitgeist is both something that stems from the unconscious mind
Speaker 4: naturally and cyclically, but also is pushed by the powers
Speaker 4: that be. At times, it feels like Hollywood and Western
Speaker 4: media and all the type tries to not only bring
Speaker 4: up certain symbols which then connect to these archetypes, but
Speaker 4: they also invert these symbols as well. And so you
Speaker 4: get then that latched onto by mainstream media, and then
Speaker 4: you get these new ag grifters. It feels like that
Speaker 4: are out there who then latch on to these terms
Speaker 4: like which like magician, like all these things and so
Speaker 4: what I mean because then that leads into Carl Jung
Speaker 4: talking about these two extremes of the diagram of the pyramid,
Speaker 4: that you have your highest aspect of these archetypes, and
Speaker 4: you have the two extremes on either side. And sometimes
Speaker 4: I feel like these terms are now falling into the
Speaker 4: two extremes where we should actually embrace these things but
Speaker 4: not identify with them. How do you feel about something
Speaker 4: like that?
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's something I say all the time whenever, like
Speaker 6: my students are working with the taro is that we're
Speaker 6: learning from these archetypes and trying to connect to them
Speaker 6: and finding the polls right because as Young said, there's
Speaker 6: always a shadow in a light. There's these these huge
Speaker 6: poles on either side of every archetype, but we're not them,
Speaker 6: We're not them. I think like one of the one
Speaker 6: of the people that really kind of encapsulates how much
Speaker 6: in contemporary I think we've always done this, but like
Speaker 6: we see this so much is like Marilyn Monroe, right,
Speaker 6: Like she is the embodiment of an archetype, and there's
Speaker 6: like you can see that the intense like beauty of
Speaker 6: that and the allure of that and like gravitating to her.
Speaker 6: She's like the perfect you know, Venusian like symbol. And
Speaker 6: then at the same time she's.
Speaker 7: The whore, right like she's like she's were disgusted by her,
Speaker 7: and so we have this huge split and people were
Speaker 7: so so so obsessed with her and some still are
Speaker 7: because she's embodying this archetype.
Speaker 6: She's she's actually like it's living through her. And was
Speaker 6: did she embody that? Because that was already in the
Speaker 6: collective consciousness and people were already kind of that was rising,
Speaker 6: you know, as we're like post World War two and
Speaker 6: the sexuality women is is changing all these things maybe
Speaker 6: or is it something that because she existed all of
Speaker 6: a sudden triggered that archetype to rise, and people like
Speaker 6: projected that on her. I don't know, it's like, it's
Speaker 6: an interesting phenomenon that I don't know if there's a
Speaker 6: clear answer to.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she has a neptune on her ascendant, so people
Speaker 5: were projecting things onto her.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's funny, and that's it was interesting with her.
Speaker 4: And when I was I don't remember what book I was,
Speaker 4: but they brought her up. Actually, as she ended up,
Speaker 4: I would consider her being trapped within that eggregor of
Speaker 4: the archetype, of that kind of Venusian woman, because she
Speaker 4: then she couldn't get a position or a role until
Speaker 4: these roles were kind of created, and then she was
Speaker 4: taken into them, and then she couldn't get out of it.
Speaker 4: And so it's such a fascinating thing where all of
Speaker 4: a sudden she got stuck within something, but she wanted
Speaker 4: to branch out, and so her voice supposedly wasn't that's
Speaker 4: not even how she sounded the cutesy girly you know,
Speaker 4: blah blah blah, and then all of a sudden she's
Speaker 4: like no, her voice was actually deeper and lower, and
Speaker 4: she not like it was a man or anything like that.
Speaker 4: But she ended up becoming like trapped within her own archetype.
Speaker 4: She became the exact antithesis of the thing that she
Speaker 4: wanted to be in the end. Fascinating.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, she she got trapped in the projection.
Speaker 4: That's exactly it. She became like the potato sack, as
Speaker 4: Young says, of the Onama archetype of disembodied masculinity or
Speaker 4: something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I do find it interesting that we're mentioning her,
Speaker 1: because like what you're getting at is a really huge
Speaker 1: impact took on. You know, that role. Great, I just
Speaker 1: unfortunately wonder how much the CIA had it behind it.
Speaker 4: That's exact.
Speaker 1: I mean, they really that good and actually putting that out.
Speaker 1: I hate to say that's a conspiratorial.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well she has a direct work of the CIA.
Speaker 1: I mean she.
Speaker 4: Was what I call it a Yeah, she was an
Speaker 4: agent for them as she was putting emerging together the
Speaker 4: Mafia and JFK's presidential thing. So yeah, sorry, you know who.
Speaker 1: Else was too? Julia Child? She was.
Speaker 8: She was a member of the She was part of
Speaker 8: the Olsens and so when they did the Sounds of Music,
Speaker 8: she was infiltrating Sweet or Switzerland at that time, to
Speaker 8: take on a bunch of dat over them, and she's
Speaker 8: she's come out and just said that's what she's done with.
Speaker 4: Fascinating enough. George Clooney is also one of them.
Speaker 1: I think conspiratorial anyway, fascinating stuff. I do have another
Speaker 1: question if you don't mind, well, I think you did.
Speaker 1: You both know, you guys good on that answer. You
Speaker 1: guys finished? Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry about going off on that.
Speaker 4: No, don apology, you don't sound finished, Christina, I talky, No.
Speaker 5: I was thinking about Neptune. I was thinking about on
Speaker 5: her Ascendant. So just thinking about like collective projection and
Speaker 5: also being swept up in things that are bigger than you,
Speaker 5: like the CIA, the the planet Neptune is about like
Speaker 5: the collective consciousness or the collective unconscious. Maybe it is
Speaker 5: the planet that kind of breaks down structures. It symbolizes
Speaker 5: all kinds of things like merging, escapism, addiction, but also
Speaker 5: you know, ecstasy, poetry. It's just like it's a very
Speaker 5: literally nebulous planet that puts a fog around anything that
Speaker 5: it touches. And so in Marilyn Monroe's chart, she's just
Speaker 5: an example that I happened to use sometimes of Neptune
Speaker 5: on the ascendant, and that means that when she was born,
Speaker 5: when she was coming into this world, the planet Neptune
Speaker 5: was rising over the eastern horizon, and because it was
Speaker 5: on the eastern horizon point, it was very, very prominent
Speaker 5: in her chart. It kind of takes on this larger
Speaker 5: than life energy. And people who have Neptune on their
Speaker 5: ascendant tend to be like the vessels of projection for
Speaker 5: other people. And so if you're like not Marilyn Monroe
Speaker 5: and you're a regular person, you might deal with people
Speaker 5: just in your life projecting shit onto you that isn't yours.
Speaker 5: You might have to live up to expectations that are
Speaker 5: not fair that other people just have because they're projecting
Speaker 5: shit onto you. But for somebody like her, she became
Speaker 5: whatever confluence of forces pushed her into the path that
Speaker 5: she became this, you know, yes, like the kind of
Speaker 5: I don't know, anima extreme, and I do see that
Speaker 5: as a result of her Neptune placement and then getting
Speaker 5: swallowed up by addiction, grief, you know, all these different
Speaker 5: kinds of things drowning. Neptune is the god of the sea,
Speaker 5: and so you know, just literally being overpowered by forces
Speaker 5: bigger than yourself feels very much like what happened there.
Speaker 5: That's my Maryland two cents, poor.
Speaker 1: Thing, Yes, poor thing? Actually yeah, wow, that was really impressive.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Huh. A lot of your episodes move between
Speaker 1: scholarship and lived spirituality. How do you balance serious study
Speaker 1: with personal intuition and experience. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: want to take that first the maybe Marianna and then well,
Speaker 1: like Christina.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that, as we said before, because we
Speaker 6: wanted this podcast to really feel like we're just talking,
Speaker 6: like we're just talking to people to each other, Like
Speaker 6: we we have such strong backgrounds in our individual academic
Speaker 6: stuff that we've we've studied, so we're always drawing from that,
Speaker 6: but then we live the experience and we're living how
Speaker 6: you know, we're actually making sense of all this stuff.
Speaker 6: And so I think that that was one of our
Speaker 6: intentions from the very beginning, was to say, like, Okay,
Speaker 6: we're going to talk about the stuff that we would
Speaker 6: talk about. We're going to like go through the brain
Speaker 6: the brain process of what does this mean and what
Speaker 6: are we drawing from? But like then what does it
Speaker 6: mean for us like, well, how do we as I
Speaker 6: said before, like the maiden archetype, right, and like oh,
Speaker 6: we're reclaiming this archetype or we're reading story about it
Speaker 6: or whatever. What does this mean for how we're experiencing
Speaker 6: our own you know, phase of life or how we're
Speaker 6: you know made in Mother Crone is like one of
Speaker 6: the very big things that we love to talk about
Speaker 6: this like the triple goddess thing. What does it mean
Speaker 6: to transition from one to the other in real life today?
Speaker 6: Like it's not just an idea and it's not just
Speaker 6: a concept. It is we're living these archetypes, We're living
Speaker 6: these symbols. So so yeah, I think that we are always
Speaker 6: thinking about what is what is the lived experience of
Speaker 6: this thing? And then how does that apply to our
Speaker 6: spiritual practices too?
Speaker 5: I love Yeah, well said, and I think like to
Speaker 5: layer onto that. The way that I see it is like,
Speaker 5: you know, we're both naturally kind of bookworrey, and what
Speaker 5: we find when we're reading, like or what I find
Speaker 5: when I'm reading is I'm not necessarily reading so that
Speaker 5: I can like have all the knowledge and like be
Speaker 5: the smartest person in the room, But I'm reading to
Speaker 5: like find inspiration. And when I read something, if it's
Speaker 5: a depth psychology essay or a book of ancient hymns,
Speaker 5: or you know, some essays on some artists that I
Speaker 5: really care about, or just myths, you know, you're looking
Speaker 5: for new signs that you can like trace in the
Speaker 5: world around you, if that makes sense. It's kind of
Speaker 5: like you're looking for new pieces of proof that magic
Speaker 5: is real. And so I think that I use the
Speaker 5: intellectual stuff as a jumping off point for my lived
Speaker 5: magic or my lived whatever folk which practices or lived creativity,
Speaker 5: and it really brings meaning to your experiences. So that
Speaker 5: crow that you see eight times in a row is
Speaker 5: not just a random crow that is kind of creepy
Speaker 5: because it's like a crow, you know, it's a symbol
Speaker 5: for something that puts you in direct contact with something bigger,
Speaker 5: you know. So that feels like a very like you
Speaker 5: know whatever, atmospheric answer. But that that's kind of how
Speaker 5: I see it, Like that's the point of marrying the
Speaker 5: intellectual stuff with the modern spirituality stuff, which we really need.
Speaker 5: Like we've said before, the world that we live in
Speaker 5: flattens and kind of sucks the juice out of everything.
Speaker 5: For the sake of profit or collecting our data or
Speaker 5: you know whatever, and it's ugly, and so it's like
Speaker 5: a little reclamation of what's actually part of the human experience.
Speaker 1: I think great, great answers from both of these amazing
Speaker 1: Brandon A Kaiva, you have anything before I keep going,
Speaker 1: all right, I don't want to leave you guys. Huh
Speaker 1: uh you. This is a good question that lingers one.
Speaker 1: Do you see modern spirituality as getting deeper right now
Speaker 1: or getting more aesthetic and diluting.
Speaker 6: I don't know. If we're going to have opinion, we
Speaker 6: might have the same opinion I am. I'm a orpio
Speaker 6: skeptic all the time, like first and foremost, so I
Speaker 6: have a tendency to look at yeah, and I tend
Speaker 6: to look at everything with like an iyrol of like
Speaker 6: why are you doing that? So I I think people
Speaker 6: do a lot of things without having true motivation behind it.
Speaker 6: They just do the thing that they're told to do,
Speaker 6: or they do the thing they see somebody else doing.
Speaker 6: And that's normal human behavior. That's not that's not bad.
Speaker 6: It's just that we I don't know if as a
Speaker 6: society we're that good yet of asking ourselves, like what
Speaker 6: things have true meaning for us. So modern spirituality to
Speaker 6: me is a proof that, you know, one of the
Speaker 6: things that Young often talked about was the great crisis
Speaker 6: of the of the modern man is the loss of religion,
Speaker 6: which is essentially the loss of the connection to what's greater.
Speaker 6: Also the pathway like the routines and the doctrines to
Speaker 6: connect us to that greater thing, which is unfortunately what
Speaker 6: probably a bigger loss in religions that we don't know
Speaker 6: what we're doing anymore. We don't know how to do
Speaker 6: the connection. We don't know how to get to the
Speaker 6: other side of something. So in modern spirituality says we're
Speaker 6: we want to reconnect to this. That's what our goal is.
Speaker 6: This is still at the base of our humanity. But
Speaker 6: a lot of it is Instagram. It's just shiny, you
Speaker 6: know what.
Speaker 3: Is cute?
Speaker 6: What do other people say that they're doing.
Speaker 1: That's a huge thing, right, hearing what somebody else is doing. Oh,
Speaker 1: I got to try that now. You haven't even really
Speaker 1: learned what you were just looking at before. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: I've done that myself, which I could say, which I've
Speaker 1: spotted I've seen in myself. You know, That's how I've
Speaker 1: seen it. I've done it.
Speaker 6: I think we've all done it because we're looking we're
Speaker 6: looking for teachers, right like we're looking for people to
Speaker 6: tell us what how do we access the mysteries of life?
Speaker 6: Like we're here, like you know, an eighteen year old
Speaker 6: kid thaying, I want to believe in something. Someone teach me.
Speaker 6: Someone teach me, and we don't go to the priest anymore,
Speaker 6: and we don't you know, we don't have the gurus
Speaker 6: the same way anymore, and we don't know.
Speaker 3: Where to access it.
Speaker 6: So we go to the internet or we go to
Speaker 6: like the book that someone recommended. And I understand why
Speaker 6: we do that, and I've done that myself too, absolutely,
Speaker 6: But it's something that I'll have a lot of people
Speaker 6: will come to me and say, well, like I tried
Speaker 6: using the tarot in this way, or I tried creating
Speaker 6: a spiritual practice, and in the end it like I
Speaker 6: don't know, I just didn't like it, Like yeah, because
Speaker 6: it wasn't that's not your thing, Like it didn't have
Speaker 6: meaning for you, So of course you're not gonna keep
Speaker 6: up with it. So it's it. We all have to
Speaker 6: find what is the actual pathway individually to access whatever
Speaker 6: greater thing we're trying to access. For me, that was
Speaker 6: very much UNI and psychology. Once I found that, I
Speaker 6: was like, oh, I know the path to understanding myself
Speaker 6: and to do like finding connection to the greater stuff
Speaker 6: of life. But that's not for everybody. Like sometimes it's astrology,
Speaker 6: sometimes it's it's ten thousand different things. Right, So yeah,
Speaker 6: I think that there is a huge vein of shallowness
Speaker 6: in modern spirituality because it's a bit performative and we
Speaker 6: don't really know what we're doing and we don't have
Speaker 6: the patients to discover what we're doing and the humility
Speaker 6: to do that all the time. But I have hope
Speaker 6: for us. I think I think it proves that we're
Speaker 6: trying to do it. So that's my very cynical answer.
Speaker 1: Is really I would even say through like kind of
Speaker 1: like materialism, and I just have to explain it's like
Speaker 1: just because you dress up and cosplay doesn't know you
Speaker 1: know what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I was gonna say, people, when you see
Speaker 2: on Instagram everybody filming in their ritual, I think that
Speaker 2: is so absurd. I'm like, that is such a private,
Speaker 2: sacred space, Like I don't even think you're cool.
Speaker 3: I think you're the like I don't trust you, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like when I see people do that, I categorize them
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I will never you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't anyways, because they're typically the type of
Speaker 2: people that I wouldn't watch either way. But when I
Speaker 2: see it, it's so disheartening because it's so misleading, like
Speaker 2: so many people, right, and they become these like gurus
Speaker 2: and their their sun crowns, and you know, it's like
Speaker 2: do it for yourself. But if it's for like us,
Speaker 2: you know, theatrics, it's like it's not working. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so I totally agree.
Speaker 6: Just capitalist spirituality at that point.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've heard that actually going around a lot lately,
Speaker 1: that term capitalist spirituality or materialism spiritual materialism. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the only one saying in mar it.
Speaker 4: What's funny is most times those people who are doing
Speaker 4: the capitalist spirituality are like haters of capitalism. So it's
Speaker 4: such a fun inversion that happens with somebody when that's
Speaker 4: ultimate LARPing is this live action role playing rebel of
Speaker 4: capitalism as they're trying to use capitalism to push their
Speaker 4: brand out even further. So it's it's fucking aggravating. I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: My favorite one is the manifestors who are like, you
Speaker 6: have to you know, you have to let go of
Speaker 6: all of capitalism and materialism. But here's how you manifest
Speaker 6: a million dollars a month. It's great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll teach you how to do that for thirty
Speaker 1: three dollars a month.
Speaker 4: It's seven seventy seven dollars.
Speaker 1: Very much.
Speaker 4: These are angel numbers, Get it right, Nick, that's it?
Speaker 1: Oh god, Christina, what's your thoughts?
Speaker 5: I hate angel number pricing. My thoughts are are you know,
Speaker 5: are very similar. But I will also say, like, yes,
Speaker 5: there's nothing that stresses me out more than seeing people
Speaker 5: filming their rituals and then putting them on Instagram and
Speaker 5: then getting a lot of attention for it, like this
Speaker 5: is a cult work. It's literally supposed to be happening
Speaker 5: in secret. It's it's that's what, like, what are we doing? So,
Speaker 5: you know, if I think that as somebody who teaches
Speaker 5: about ritual of vination and I teach astrological magic classes,
Speaker 5: you know, to my students, if I ever like film something,
Speaker 5: it's not my ritual, it's like this is the sample.
Speaker 5: This is like the you know, here's the carved candle
Speaker 5: with the astrological glyph, here's the magic number square that
Speaker 5: you want to use for mercury. Like I think that
Speaker 5: that's fine. But when people are like, this is my
Speaker 5: my like personal money manifestation alter, I'm just like, whoa,
Speaker 5: that's that's bananas. So I think that, yeah, it's really
Speaker 5: an interesting time that, you know, like I'm able to
Speaker 5: live as an astrologer. That's really cool. That means that
Speaker 5: there's interest in the astrological arts enough so that I
Speaker 5: can like pay bills and that's really really special and
Speaker 5: really amazing. At the same time, you bump into people
Speaker 5: that get really frustrated that it's not like a quick
Speaker 5: switch that you can flip to know everything. You know,
Speaker 5: I've been studying this stuff, I don't know, probably like
Speaker 5: officially since too as an EID or something like that,
Speaker 5: But I don't really care about the timeline. It just
Speaker 5: it's it's a long relationship that you have to form
Speaker 5: with these materials before you really understand them and know
Speaker 5: how the symbols speak to you. And so something that
Speaker 5: I see a lot is like people getting fed up
Speaker 5: with astrology kind of like what Marianna was saying about
Speaker 5: people saying, oh Taro didn't work for me. It was
Speaker 5: like too whatever, too much. These things are ancient frameworks
Speaker 5: for the most part, and so they take time to
Speaker 5: learn and engage with. So is it, you know, is
Speaker 5: there a kind of superficializing of spirituality? Yeah, there's a
Speaker 5: spiritual there's a superficializing of literally everything, because anything that
Speaker 5: can be commodified at this point will be commodified. And
Speaker 5: so I think that our job is to be like
Speaker 5: voices of like non superficial spiritual perspectives and frameworks and
Speaker 5: keep speaking it and then hoping that we reach the
Speaker 5: right people, or that we can turn the right people
Speaker 5: onto the path enough that we make a little bit
Speaker 5: of a change. So yeah, is that less less? I
Speaker 5: really And your answer.
Speaker 6: Marianna, maybe maybe just a touch, because it tends to
Speaker 6: be a little bit more generous and I tend to
Speaker 6: be a little bit more cynical.
Speaker 5: I'm a ver go.
Speaker 1: You balance each other, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's something that Christina and I
Speaker 6: complain about privately often, is that people want to get
Speaker 6: the answers without going on the journey.
Speaker 5: You gotta suffer you to.
Speaker 6: Suffer, and so we'll often have students who, like we'll
Speaker 6: take a class of ours and then maybe retake the
Speaker 6: thing class the next year or something, and then we'll
Speaker 6: still get emails that are like, you know, I'm not
Speaker 6: really I'm not really getting it, or you know, can
Speaker 6: you just tell me? Can you just give me more information?
Speaker 6: It's like I've given you everything. I've given it to
Speaker 6: you and given it to you. But the thing is
Speaker 6: that now you have to take that and do something
Speaker 6: with it, do your own exploring with it, follow your
Speaker 6: own passways with it, and then it'll make sense or
Speaker 6: or maybe you'll find that it's not really worth it
Speaker 6: for you or whatever. But we complain about that a
Speaker 6: lot with each other, or like this person just really
Speaker 6: wants something from me that I'm trying to get but
Speaker 6: they don't know how to really get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and that's where like the intuitive part as well.
Speaker 2: Like I always think it's interesting how like you can
Speaker 2: read every astrology book, but you have to know how
Speaker 2: to weave the things together. And it sounds like that's
Speaker 2: probably what that person is struggling with, is the weaving part,
Speaker 2: because that's something that you have to innately have in yourself.
Speaker 2: And that's why, like if you can do astrology, it's
Speaker 2: going to be in your chart that you can do astrology.
Speaker 2: Like I mean, that's just what all the agents said,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, so if you're meant
Speaker 2: to do astrology, it'll be written in your chart. If
Speaker 2: you're meant to be an actor, it'll be written in
Speaker 2: your chart. And like that's where, you know, sometimes people
Speaker 2: just have to say, like, that's just not my path,
Speaker 2: and like that's where sometimes, being that it's such a
Speaker 2: pop thing right now, it's kind of unfortunate because it
Speaker 2: confuses people to think like, well I should be able
Speaker 2: to do that too, this person's doing it, and so
Speaker 2: just being like, well it's not my thing, I am y,
Speaker 2: you know, and then career whatever it is is even
Speaker 2: like a big thing for them either way.
Speaker 3: So it is interesting how that works out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, you know, when I was learning astrology
Speaker 5: a million years ago, it was before this big internet
Speaker 5: boom of people talking about astrology online. So you could
Speaker 5: like haunt some weird message board, you know, on the internet,
Speaker 5: and like read other people's wacky conversations about asteroids, you know,
Speaker 5: or you know, you could get the books and you
Speaker 5: could really immerse yourself in that. But still astrology books
Speaker 5: do not ever do the thing of giving you the
Speaker 5: sense of intuitive sight to synthesize. And that's what people
Speaker 5: always complain about. They're like, I know what the planets mean,
Speaker 5: I know what the science mean, the houses, blah blah blah,
Speaker 5: but I can't bring it all together. And so I
Speaker 5: try to teach that in my classes, and I do
Speaker 5: think that it is a little bit of like you
Speaker 5: need to kind of be an intuitive person to see similarity,
Speaker 5: to see symbolic meaning and things. And that doesn't mean
Speaker 5: that if you don't have that gift, you can't you know,
Speaker 5: read your chart or use astrology. But sometimes people, you know,
Speaker 5: push really hard on like commodifying it, or you know,
Speaker 5: I want to do this for like a side gig,
Speaker 5: and that's where it breaks down. That's like where the
Speaker 5: diamond's like Nope, actually no, it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I appreciate, appreciate the answers. That was great.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a good question.
Speaker 4: Too, as fascinating. I also want to add in the
Speaker 4: idea that I find with my students because I teached
Speaker 4: martial arts during the daytime, and it's such a fascinating
Speaker 4: thing that how I learned and how the ancient like
Speaker 4: not ancient, but the Chinese teachers. I've had, even my
Speaker 4: non Chinese teachers who learned from the Chinese teachers. It's
Speaker 4: like when you're learning forms or doing certain things, I
Speaker 4: feel like nowadays people want their like you're saying, their
Speaker 4: hands held throughout the whole practice and instead of I
Speaker 4: remember when I was getting taught my teacher and then
Speaker 4: when we would go train with the Chinese guys, they
Speaker 4: would be like, here's what it looks like, and then
Speaker 4: they would sit down and then they would like do
Speaker 4: this and drink their tea, and then you would just
Speaker 4: do it and then you'd look at them like am
Speaker 4: I doing it right? And like the thing that I
Speaker 4: always tell my students, and I've probably said this a
Speaker 4: billion times, but they just look at you and they
Speaker 4: go do you have power? And then you're like, uh no,
Speaker 4: They're all like keep doing it, do more, do more
Speaker 4: until you have power. And what they mean is do
Speaker 4: you have foundation? Do you have grounding? Do you have
Speaker 4: the ability to continue? And so it's like one of
Speaker 4: those things where they're all like people have become weak
Speaker 4: because they want their handheld through the whole process. And
Speaker 4: I think that is an issue of the globalized world
Speaker 4: of instant access, which is fascinating because then it goes
Speaker 4: to the stories of when you would want to go
Speaker 4: learn these Chinese arts or these ancient arts, mystical arts.
Speaker 4: The story is you would have to sit in front
Speaker 4: of the temple for weeks on end, and then you know,
Speaker 4: people would get not being able to do it obviously,
Speaker 4: and they would walk away, and then the abbot would
Speaker 4: come out and he'd put a bowl full of rice
Speaker 4: in the middle of all of them. Five people would
Speaker 4: go up there and they would eat from the rice.
Speaker 4: The abbit would come and point them away. You must,
Speaker 4: you know, you cannot. You must be disciplined before you
Speaker 4: enter into the Western or the Eastern mystical teachings. And
Speaker 4: I think again that just goes back to proving what
Speaker 4: you guys are saying everyone here as well as that
Speaker 4: it's like everyone wants their handheld through the process. They're
Speaker 4: not willing to suffer, and that is what has to happen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, in the tarot, the card for that kind of
Speaker 6: is the higher fint because the higher fins is like
Speaker 6: the preseas like the pope, and he disseminates the knowledge, right,
Speaker 6: But then at that point you take it and you
Speaker 6: have to find your own way to living it or
Speaker 6: experiencing it. And this is something that you're totally right.
Speaker 6: There's this You don't realize that throughout history you always
Speaker 6: have to be initiated into the thing and the initiation
Speaker 6: process is a process of self discovery and challenge and
Speaker 6: testing and all these things. And so now we just
Speaker 6: buy a class, which is great. I'd love that I
Speaker 6: can buy classes that interests be and learn that thing
Speaker 6: that I could teach this, But we don't always understand
Speaker 6: that the initiation cannot be removed from the process. You
Speaker 6: also have to go through the journey and the confusion
Speaker 6: and the testing and the finding the other thing. Like
Speaker 6: when I started with Union psychology, I say this all
Speaker 6: the time, Like in my classes. I found a book
Speaker 6: in my grandpa's attic and I was like, this is interesting.
Speaker 6: I've heard of this young guy. Let me just read this.
Speaker 6: And then I was like, oh crap, like my life
Speaker 6: just changed. I think I have to keep reading about
Speaker 6: young and what Yung said. And then I just I
Speaker 6: just read whatever book I found in his attic. It
Speaker 6: wasn't like someone told me this is what these are
Speaker 6: the books you have to read it. And I didn't
Speaker 6: have like a Google cheat sheet of like this is
Speaker 6: how you learn union psychology. Just kept reading and I
Speaker 6: just kept discovering, and then that you led me to
Speaker 6: other things and the tarot and all this stuff. And
Speaker 6: so what I teach now is compiled from a decade
Speaker 6: of my own like initiation process through all of this work.
Speaker 6: So it's not something someone ever told me. And it's
Speaker 6: really cool that we get told these things. Now, we
Speaker 6: get these we can learn them from people, especially all
Speaker 6: this occult material and spiritual material. But we can't remove
Speaker 6: the initiation process. We still have to do that process.
Speaker 6: And so we as teachers, we can ever we can
Speaker 6: never get, you know, help help the students through that.
Speaker 6: We can ever eliminate that part of it, nor should we.
Speaker 6: Then they're not really they're not really absorbing it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting that you said, like, you know,
Speaker 1: like all your experience too. I think that's awesome. I
Speaker 1: would even say I think for myself, you know, probably
Speaker 1: going back to you know, a little bit around twenty
Speaker 1: ten around there, I feel like there was kind of
Speaker 1: like a little bit of a big boom of people
Speaker 1: getting interested in witchcraft again in the occult, but it
Speaker 1: just seemed to be everywhere and scattered, and myself included
Speaker 1: I as part of that. And now since that time,
Speaker 1: I've been able to kind of like, you know, put
Speaker 1: my experience into something like I've learned from it now
Speaker 1: and trying to like sought to explain I'm getting at
Speaker 1: but just what you said just reminded me of that
Speaker 1: of kind of like you know, refining my experience and
Speaker 1: being able to share with others now since it's been
Speaker 1: like fifteen years since then. You know, I think that
Speaker 1: does help, you know, And and I do think that
Speaker 1: people like us that stuck with it and found something
Speaker 1: that we loved and we're doing. Not trying to sound cocky,
Speaker 1: but I do think, you know, all of us here
Speaker 1: have a chance of kind of being part of like
Speaker 1: the new voice or aon going forward, you know, because
Speaker 1: a lot of the people that have been around that
Speaker 1: we learned from there kind of stepping back. They're getting old,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's I think if we keep going
Speaker 1: and keep doing what we're doing, you can definitely make
Speaker 1: an impact and help, especially with our past experiences. So
Speaker 1: I love that you said that rightly.
Speaker 6: Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's actually the most important thing,
Speaker 4: especially because we live in an age of grifters, and
Speaker 4: so it's like this high level of charlatanism is so
Speaker 4: gravating that I feel like, kind of what we said
Speaker 4: earlier is like I wanted to create megas in the
Speaker 4: media four years and life just didn't allow me to
Speaker 4: for one reason or another. Maybe I wasn't ready, whatnot,
Speaker 4: and so forth. But it's like so fascinating how quickly
Speaker 4: the universe once you allow the pathways to open themselves up,
Speaker 4: that all of a sudden, now I'm talking to some
Speaker 4: of the people that I've always wanted to communicate with
Speaker 4: and it has only taken so much amount of time.
Speaker 4: And so it's like, I think the universe it's almost
Speaker 4: like I like to think of it as the analogy
Speaker 4: of like the white blood cells in our body system,
Speaker 4: where like certain things are created, like diseases in the body.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying grifters are diseases. Maybe i am,
Speaker 4: but it's one of those things that it's like fascinating
Speaker 4: to think that then the universe creates its way to
Speaker 4: balance out the spectrum. It's very symbolic to how the
Speaker 4: force is used in Star Wars, and so the force
Speaker 4: balances itself. It's not that the light will always win
Speaker 4: or the dark world always win, but when the light
Speaker 4: is created like an Anakin Skywalker, that there are toothsith
Speaker 4: to balance that. And I like that because it's the
Speaker 4: symbolic for understanding that there will always be balance. That is,
Speaker 4: the light will never win because it's not supposed to.
Speaker 4: The light in the dark are supposed to balance themselves out.
Speaker 4: So if good, if true, authentic voices, hopefully like all
Speaker 4: of us here, aren't speaking out, then there will be
Speaker 4: an imbalance in the world will go to shit kind
Speaker 4: of like it is has been because of the voices
Speaker 4: that are the loudest are the ones that are the
Speaker 4: least courageous. So it's kind of how I like to feel.
Speaker 4: I feel that out.
Speaker 1: Did you have? I know it's getting close to out.
Speaker 1: I want more. I did have some questions for both
Speaker 1: of you separately' see if maybe I can get like
Speaker 1: one each first, I'm going to go. I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, I just didn't want to hold jab either.
Speaker 1: If you've got stuff going on, all right, questions they
Speaker 1: gave very good answers. I didn't think they were going
Speaker 1: to take this one. What's she going to start with
Speaker 1: you first? Marianna, you describe your work as archetypal taro
Speaker 1: or archetypal taro. What makes a different? What makes that
Speaker 1: different from standard tarot teaching or standard car reading.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, in traditional taro, we're generally using the cards
Speaker 6: to give us answers, right, sometimes to make predictions like oh,
Speaker 6: this is what's to come, or this is what's going
Speaker 6: on under the surface of things. You know, your boyfriend's
Speaker 6: cheating on you, the kinds of things. And in archetypal taro,
Speaker 6: it's not that we we say that the cards can
Speaker 6: never come up sometimes offering these little predictions or these
Speaker 6: little plimses into what's going on, but where you read
Speaker 6: them far more as representations of the psyche, mirrors of
Speaker 6: the psyche. So what's going on in our inner world
Speaker 6: that is then reflecting somehow into the outer world. So
Speaker 6: something I always say is that in an archetypal terror reading,
Speaker 6: the goal is not to get an answer to a question,
Speaker 6: but to find out what the better question was all along.
Speaker 6: So if we say, okay, like I don't know if
Speaker 6: I should take this job or not should I take
Speaker 6: the job? Or going to the cards, we're saying, give
Speaker 6: me the answer, tell me what I'm supposed to do,
Speaker 6: what's the right thing, And that can feel very relieving
Speaker 6: to get an answer, But we're not supporting our strength
Speaker 6: of character. We're not supporting our ability to understand ourselves
Speaker 6: and continue our individuation. We're speaking given a directive. When
Speaker 6: we use the tearo in the archetypal way and the
Speaker 6: archetype approach that I've you know, created or outlined, we're
Speaker 6: trying to understand why don't I know what I want?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 6: That's the better question. Better question is like, Okay, I
Speaker 6: don't know if I should take this job. But then
Speaker 6: the cards will reveal you know, you have deep fears
Speaker 6: around being alone, or you you know, can't separate from
Speaker 6: your parents, or there's something going on under the surface
Speaker 6: that is the reason why you can't make the decision.
Speaker 6: That's the better question. Why don't I know? Why don't
Speaker 6: I know how to live? And so if we use
Speaker 6: the cards that way, they support this this incredible journey
Speaker 6: of growth and how we're understanding ourselves and advancing ourselves
Speaker 6: in life, which is a more challenging way to read
Speaker 6: because we're not just being told what to do. We
Speaker 6: have to figure it out for ourselves, but a much
Speaker 6: much more rewarding way. So that's really the distinction of
Speaker 6: like archetypal tera versus traditional thank you.
Speaker 1: I like that I was going to say something I
Speaker 1: totally forgot I was paying attention to. All Right, did
Speaker 1: a of you just have anything you wanted to add
Speaker 1: before I go over.
Speaker 5: For Christina, Well, I just want to add that everyone
Speaker 5: can learn about archetypal Taro and Mary in this book. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's very exciting.
Speaker 6: If you want my book is about.
Speaker 1: And if you want to hear what it's about, go
Speaker 1: check it out on the Occult Rejects. It was out
Speaker 1: not too long ago. So yep, just did a great
Speaker 1: job on that book. Christina, your public bio says you
Speaker 1: blend astrology with mythology, art, art, history, and literature. What
Speaker 1: does this add to astrology that a more technical approach
Speaker 1: might miss.
Speaker 5: I think that the symbols of astrology, the symbols of
Speaker 5: the occult, are in everything, and so when I you know,
Speaker 5: like I don't know in college when I was studying,
Speaker 5: I was a literature major art history minor, and I
Speaker 5: felt and I was studying astrology at the same time.
Speaker 5: I felt like I kept bumping into the same symbols,
Speaker 5: the same archetypes, the same you know, versions of a story.
Speaker 5: And I realized that, like you could kind of translate
Speaker 5: human experience with these symbols, Like I saw a link
Speaker 5: between what was maybe expressed in a movie and also
Speaker 5: an astrological symbol. And so I think it's almost like
Speaker 5: a it's just like a human impulse, right to like
Speaker 5: connect these things. But it's my way of bringing together
Speaker 5: all of these cultural artifacts and say, here are different
Speaker 5: ways of seeing self. You can see yourself in a movie,
Speaker 5: you can see yourself in your natal chart, you can
Speaker 5: see yourself in you know, a painting from one hundred
Speaker 5: years ago. And importing the symbols of astrology into the
Speaker 5: arts and vice versa lets us kind of have a
Speaker 5: more expansive experience. And it's a reminder that things are interconnected. Right,
Speaker 5: Someone's not just painting and abstract painting for the sake
Speaker 5: of making that painting. That artist is moved by something
Speaker 5: probably divine or archetypal or just human and it's a
Speaker 5: really cool experience to feel like you have insight into
Speaker 5: what's going on there. Somebody who comes to mind is
Speaker 5: Helma off Clint, who's a painter. You know, she preceded
Speaker 5: the abstracts preshioness movement. She preceded vastly Kandinski, and you know,
Speaker 5: because she was a woman, didn't get any credit for
Speaker 5: doing that. She was kind of obscure in her time.
Speaker 5: Looking at her paintings now, they are full blown mystical
Speaker 5: experiences rendered on canvas, and they're full of astrological symbolism,
Speaker 5: and so, you know, bringing the arts into astrology and
Speaker 5: vice versa, I think is just a way of saying,
Speaker 5: like there is a universal language that people speak in.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: And I just personally fucking love art and movies and music,
Speaker 5: and I like to have other ways of offering people
Speaker 5: insight and examples, you know, so of stuff in their
Speaker 5: chart that that might make it easier to see themselves.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think that that's how that all kind
Speaker 5: of works together.
Speaker 2: Do you like Remediosavarros, Yes, I read that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love for those two. Yeah, they're great.
Speaker 2: I want to go to Ariminico or actually in Washington
Speaker 2: apparently they have a women's art museum.
Speaker 5: Washington State or Washington d C.
Speaker 3: H Washington d C.
Speaker 2: Apparently there's a women's art museum there and both of
Speaker 2: them are showed there.
Speaker 3: So I heard, don't I think?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're amazing, both of those artists that they were.
Speaker 5: They were best friends. Just for everyone else, they were besties.
Speaker 5: And they both expatriated to Mexico during World War Two
Speaker 5: and just like both of them lived, I would say,
Speaker 5: like dire straits, poverty. But we're painting kind of similar
Speaker 5: things but in different different different languages, maybe I could say,
Speaker 5: but they're both very obsessed with fairy tale mythology, the
Speaker 5: occult or astrology. Alchemy. Yes, they're so big into alchemy.
Speaker 5: And yeah, excitingly too, there's like a revived interest in
Speaker 5: their work and a lot of the women's realists too.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of New Skull worship on their work.
Speaker 5: So we're lucky again about that. Yeah, I love those
Speaker 5: love those ladies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like what you said about art. And I
Speaker 1: think at some points just my opinion, and I even
Speaker 1: think with poetry, and maybe I get this idea because
Speaker 1: a little bit of like how Plato thought about stuff.
Speaker 1: But sometimes I do think that that stuff was like
Speaker 1: art was just the way for people who had some
Speaker 1: sort of experience or enlightenment was putting that on, just
Speaker 1: trying to replicate it and put symbolism and all this
Speaker 1: art into that, which is why at one point Plato
Speaker 1: was like, all these poetry people just like you should
Speaker 1: be a leader, Yeah, because it's bullshit. You don't even
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: How can you have a standing army when people are
Speaker 5: doing poetry?
Speaker 4: So besides that, no, But besides that, no, No, I
Speaker 4: was saying, what's fascinating about when he's talking about that?
Speaker 4: And I think this is a common misconcert And I'm
Speaker 4: a Platonist myself and a philosopher, But the idea is
Speaker 4: that he's trying to not tell you that that that
Speaker 4: poetry is bad. He's trying to tell you that poetry
Speaker 4: is actually one of the highest of all arts. It's
Speaker 4: this divine madness. And when he's speaking about poetry as such,
Speaker 4: he's saying that through bad poetry, you are getting this
Speaker 4: kind of propaganda, this misrepresentation of some of an already
Speaker 4: a representation of the real And so fascinating enough. Art
Speaker 4: is the term techne or skill or craft in Greek,
Speaker 4: which is a purposeful knowledge based productive capacity for things
Speaker 4: as such, which is modeled after virtue. So it's such
Speaker 4: a it's such an interesting thing. Of like Plato was
Speaker 4: a poet, he wrote in Dialogues, it's a cosmic play
Speaker 4: that he's doing, and we never know technically what he's saying,
Speaker 4: but we can gain what he's saying through his through Hermanuda,
Speaker 4: through an understanding of what translations are and what he
Speaker 4: truly is trying to represent through said poetry. So he's
Speaker 4: trying to teach us how to be poets through using
Speaker 4: the divine madness of the higher genius and an understanding
Speaker 4: of the forms. And so that's I'm very passionate about that.
Speaker 4: So that's one of those.
Speaker 1: Thank you you basically said what I was trying to
Speaker 1: get at a professional It sounded better out of your
Speaker 1: mount the morning. But another thing, even with art, I
Speaker 1: think it's very like I don't know if it was
Speaker 1: Michael Mayer or Robert Flood, I think like even one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why they were big into their emblems
Speaker 1: is because they understood that art. Can you know you
Speaker 1: may not know how to read Latin, but this art,
Speaker 1: if I put everything what I'm trying to say in
Speaker 1: these emblems, you might be able to pick it up
Speaker 1: that way. So I do think art is very like
Speaker 1: what you were saying. I just think it's huge for
Speaker 1: the occult.
Speaker 3: Art is so beautiful too.
Speaker 1: Engraving, amazing, it's great. I've covered books just because I
Speaker 1: thought they were so awesome. All right, now back to you,
Speaker 1: don't mind real quick. We'll go back to another one
Speaker 1: for Mariana, and then we'll do Christina and maybe wrap
Speaker 1: it up you Marianna. You say taro can function as
Speaker 1: a mirror of the soul and support individuation. What does
Speaker 1: taro open up psychologically and spiritually when it's approached that way?
Speaker 6: I think that so so as I was kind of
Speaker 6: saying before, like if we can, if we can use
Speaker 6: the cards to mirror back the inner realities that oftentimes
Speaker 6: are also expressed as outer realities, Like very commonly we
Speaker 6: pull the five bands when we're in conflicts of people
Speaker 6: at work, and then also we are having a lot
Speaker 6: of conflict with our own sense of you know, right
Speaker 6: and wrong or something right, Like these things mirror each other.
Speaker 6: We can do that, then we can you know, progress
Speaker 6: in this process of examination and self discovery and challenging
Speaker 6: our ability to really understand what is motivating us unconsciously,
Speaker 6: and then that is the process of individuation. That's what
Speaker 6: it is. So like, one of the things that I
Speaker 6: often recommend people try with the Tarot, and that I
Speaker 6: talk about this a lot in my book is shadow work, right,
Speaker 6: and we mentioned this in the last podcast. I'm not
Speaker 6: always a fan of shadow work because I don't know
Speaker 6: if we really have an understanding of what we're even
Speaker 6: talking about with it. But in the way that I
Speaker 6: talk about it with the taro is that, you know,
Speaker 6: we pull a card, it's confusing, or it's challenging, or
Speaker 6: we feel a lot of resistance to it, here's an
Speaker 6: opportunity to really examine it, work with it, keep it,
Speaker 6: put it on the altar, make it be this anchor
Speaker 6: point that we're returning to all the time, so that
Speaker 6: we eventually get to the place of I see something
Speaker 6: about myself I didn't see before the ego which had
Speaker 6: blocked this understanding because it didn't like it, because it
Speaker 6: brought up some kind of big, you know, shadow element
Speaker 6: that I just can't reconcile with whatever it might be
Speaker 6: the case. Now it's becoming clear, and now maybe I
Speaker 6: can have some kind of understanding, empathy, forgiveness for myself
Speaker 6: and then change, which is you know, I like the
Speaker 6: way that young kind of took the the formula of
Speaker 6: alchemy and broke it down into those four stages. He
Speaker 6: like way simplified it into the uh negrado albatos to
Speaker 6: treat toss in ruveto. And this was like his formula
Speaker 6: formula for confession, elucidation, elucidation, education, and then transformation. And
Speaker 6: so I use that a lot when I'm talking about
Speaker 6: shadow work. This is what we're doing. We're confessing our
Speaker 6: shadow then we're elucidating it, we're trying to understand it,
Speaker 6: and we're educating ourselves on it, trying to find the
Speaker 6: root cause, find out, you know, how it's affecting our lives,
Speaker 6: and then transform it. And the taro is it's a plug.
Speaker 6: It plugs us into the things that we're really based on.
Speaker 6: Proms that Union says is thought we're using divination. What
Speaker 6: we're doing is using this tool to plug us into
Speaker 6: this arca type of field. So whatever archetype is most
Speaker 6: magnetized is most constellated. That's what we're going to be
Speaker 6: drawn to. So whatever is going on in our psyche,
Speaker 6: whatever archetype is there, the card will come to represent it,
Speaker 6: and then we get plugged into this straight or landscape
Speaker 6: of knowledge that we should explore. So that's that's kind
Speaker 6: of like the formula of how we use it to
Speaker 6: support ourselves in the individuation process.
Speaker 1: Awesome, I love it. Nice kiro Brandon, you have anything,
Speaker 1: oh not? Right back to you, Christina. How do you
Speaker 1: keep astrology from becoming deterministic while honoring its depth and
Speaker 1: symbolic force?
Speaker 5: I try not to get It's very difficult, especially when
Speaker 5: you're first learning, because when you're learning astrology, you will
Speaker 5: notice that some forecasted transits to your own chart do
Speaker 5: bring difficult experiences. Bad things happen when certain planetary alignments
Speaker 5: come to be, and what you have to not do
Speaker 5: is expect the planets to always be doing the same
Speaker 5: thing over and over again. To you, I think that
Speaker 5: this is kind of where we have to have knowledge
Speaker 5: that transcends these literal interpretations of astrology, and remember that
Speaker 5: the planets in motion right, just thinking about like transit work,
Speaker 5: which is like the astrology of what's going to happen,
Speaker 5: the astrology of the future. I guess you could look
Speaker 5: back on transits too, but people mostly use it to
Speaker 5: future trip and you can't do that because though the
Speaker 5: planets kind of go in their courses and they activate
Speaker 5: our charts and they activate one another in the cosmos,
Speaker 5: they're not going in a circle and doing this thing
Speaker 5: over and over again. They're moving in a spiral, and
Speaker 5: so they're always kind of like pulling outwards, interacting with
Speaker 5: the psycheist of the moment, interacting with you as this
Speaker 5: different person than you were six months ago when you experience,
Speaker 5: you know, from like one eclipse to another, for example.
Speaker 5: And so one of the hardest things I think about
Speaker 5: being an astrologer and a budding astrologer is to not
Speaker 5: feel anxiety, fear, worry, or like pressure with astrology. And
Speaker 5: so I think that we have to see the planets
Speaker 5: as activating periods of time that are like doorways, and
Speaker 5: we kind of can step into them with knowledge, or
Speaker 5: we can maybe use that knowledge to you know, work
Speaker 5: with them in a different way. I think that astrology
Speaker 5: doesn't have to happen to us. I think that we
Speaker 5: if we like move with the wave. Like when you're
Speaker 5: swimming in the ocean and you're trying to get back
Speaker 5: to the beach, you don't just like flail. You have
Speaker 5: to wait for a wave to carry you in. That's
Speaker 5: kind of how I see the planets and what they
Speaker 5: do for us. So, you know, without it being deterministic
Speaker 5: or avoiding determinism is very difficult. But that's why we
Speaker 5: need to shift our thinking about astrology from like literalism
Speaker 5: to it. It's symbolic, it's energetic, and it's divine as well.
Speaker 5: We're in conversation with something that's divine, a divine intelligence.
Speaker 5: So yeah, that feels it's a very tough question I
Speaker 5: think to answer.
Speaker 1: I think it's great. Thank you, that's awesome. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: do have like maybe some closing questions, maybe get one
Speaker 1: or two more out of you and then we'll wrap
Speaker 1: it up. Is that okay for both of these You good?
Speaker 5: Mariana?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, all right? What's uh? And it's funny
Speaker 1: how I had this and even Marianna kind of went
Speaker 1: on about the symbols. What is one symbol that has
Speaker 1: followed each of you through your life in a way
Speaker 1: you can't ignore. If you can think of any maybe
Speaker 1: one that was like the most profound for you it
Speaker 1: still touches you the most today, or something. I don't know.
Speaker 5: For me, maybe the labyrinth. It's just been bugging me
Speaker 5: for a really long time in dreams and in yeah, experiences.
Speaker 1: The silly question, but is that like the labyrinth that
Speaker 1: you would see like on a medieval cathedral floor? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 1: al right, okay, all right. I wasn't all right, it's
Speaker 1: funny because I was just like literally recording that I'm
Speaker 1: recording on stuff on that myself.
Speaker 5: So when you said that, it's, oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I literally edited myself this morning hearing me talk
Speaker 1: about that. Shit.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's awesome, cool synchronosity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nice, Well was.
Speaker 4: It, Kyla? I think you were talking about labyrinth not
Speaker 4: too long. Weren't you just bringing up labyrinths the other day?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I have always been interested in them, and I just
Speaker 2: got a book because I have this inspiration for some
Speaker 2: project that I want to do.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I love labyrinths.
Speaker 2: Actually, Uh, Corona Borealis was the first like star that
Speaker 2: led me into my nightgazing journey, and so I have
Speaker 2: a really special connection with that star, and that's the
Speaker 2: star that's on the crown, that's the and the labyrinth itself.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I was, I was, actually Christina would like this.
Speaker 6: I'm reading a book right now called Matrix. I think
Speaker 6: it's called Forget the Author. It's a novel and it's
Speaker 6: a novel that's basically just based off of Hildegard of
Speaker 6: bing In, but it's like it's not her, but it's
Speaker 6: like someone who's like her, you know, and she like,
Speaker 6: is this like feminist abbess and she basically builds a
Speaker 6: labyrinth around the abbey because she doesn't want any men entering.
Speaker 6: It didn't actually do that, but yeah, she could have,
Speaker 6: so you might like that book, Christina, since it's it's
Speaker 6: like that sounds cool.
Speaker 1: She booked at the church and I forgot what it was.
Speaker 1: I think like they wanted to tell like you you're
Speaker 1: not allowed to sing anymore, and she's like no, And
Speaker 1: I think she actually went up higher.
Speaker 6: She wrote letters to Pope's being like you're awful, you
Speaker 6: you are not a good Christian? How dare you? And
Speaker 6: she's just like this little German advis you know.
Speaker 1: She came up with harmonizing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she she had a huge influence in polyphonic music.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we never would have had Iron Maiden. That's all
Speaker 1: they did, is they always harmonized. I'm sorry, that's what.
Speaker 4: You're really showing your age there, Nick, your age ship.
Speaker 1: All right? Last one, uh what do you oh wait,
Speaker 1: did you ever get Marianna? Did you mention a simple.
Speaker 6: I don't know, it's hard. It's something some A big
Speaker 6: one for me is angels. They always have haunted me.
Speaker 6: I don't I've my mom was obsessed with them when
Speaker 6: I was a kid, and I used to just everything
Speaker 6: was angels for me, and like talking to angels and
Speaker 6: thinking about angels and angels appearing and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 6: So it's followed me and it's not always been a
Speaker 6: good thing. So it's I have a have a unique
Speaker 6: what is it? It's like a Ralpa has a line
Speaker 6: is like every angel is terrifying. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1: H Well, if you read the descriptions of them, they
Speaker 1: really aren't the cutest. Yeah, all right, So it was
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit of a serious one. What
Speaker 1: do you both hope sore Mystica is really doing for people?
Speaker 1: Like or what do you hope they really get out
Speaker 1: of this.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I think for me, I hope that people feel
Speaker 6: like their own curiosities and their own sense of things
Speaker 6: being enchanting or mystical or meaningful is validated, and that
Speaker 6: they're hearing other people have the same experience and feeling
Speaker 6: motivated to claim it. As we said many times, you know,
Speaker 6: in this discussion, there's such a flattening of life, and
Speaker 6: oftentimes where like the little occultist or witch or a
Speaker 6: spiritual person or whatever in a circle of muggles normies, right,
Speaker 6: who are like why do you care about that? I
Speaker 6: remember when I was an actor, before I, you know,
Speaker 6: transitioned into taro and stuff. I used to have my
Speaker 6: young book always and my rehearsals in between my scenes,
Speaker 6: and people would be like, why are you reading that? Like,
Speaker 6: I don't if I have to explain that to you,
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk to you, because because it's important,
Speaker 6: because it's cool, because there's a ten thousand reasons why
Speaker 6: I'm reading that. And I think that it's very easy
Speaker 6: to be isolated in our beliefs and our in these interests,
Speaker 6: and so I hope that people hear us having these
Speaker 6: discussions and realize that these discussions matter and that they should.
Speaker 6: They can have them, and they can seek out communities
Speaker 6: where they're they're available all the time. So that's that's
Speaker 6: it for me.
Speaker 1: That is awesome. Thank you, thank Christina.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree obviously with everything she's saying. And then,
Speaker 5: you know, I think, specifically for me, I hope that
Speaker 5: people listen to the show and realize that there is
Speaker 5: a deep, rich context for this symbolism of our lives.
Speaker 5: And I think it's especially important in a time where
Speaker 5: as we've said, things are flattened, compressed, you know, stripped
Speaker 5: of meaning. Reading rates are declining, like you know, whatever
Speaker 5: screen time attention issues are happening. Kids aren't reading books.
Speaker 5: I think that we're kind of like, you know, guardians
Speaker 5: of that tradition of reminding people of how deep history
Speaker 5: is and how these symbols are like part of the
Speaker 5: language that we're supposed to be speaking. I think that
Speaker 5: the symbol is a or the symbolic realm like returns
Speaker 5: us to something really essential, and so like, is knowing
Speaker 5: symbolism gonna make a million dollars?
Speaker 6: Hell?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 5: Is it going to make you feel like a human
Speaker 5: and make you feel connected to yourself, to nature, to
Speaker 5: your partners, to your art practice to your ancestral lineages. Yes,
Speaker 5: and that's really really important. So that's kind of I
Speaker 5: think the biggest thing for me with with the ongoing conversation.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah right, yeah yeah? And how many episodes
Speaker 1: do you have out? Now?
Speaker 6: Pause a hiatus and so I think we paused at fifty.
Speaker 1: But that's great.
Speaker 5: I was pregnant now I'm not, so, which means I
Speaker 5: had my child baby, the baby was born. We'll be back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nice, nice, Yes. So, like I said earlier, to
Speaker 1: the people listening, uh, you know, for the people on
Speaker 1: audio who are I'm watching right now, I really do
Speaker 1: highly suggest to go listen to that podcast if you're
Speaker 1: into this show. So they got fifty episodes, you can
Speaker 1: go binge, So go check them out. All right, thank
Speaker 1: you both, very very much. I really thought this was
Speaker 1: an awesome, awesome episode. I had a feeling it would
Speaker 1: be and it was better than I thought. So I
Speaker 1: really appreciate both you women. Uh, before we wrap it up,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have everybody just plug themselves real quick. Kaiva,
Speaker 1: what is up? How?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a really lovely chat. Thank you for
Speaker 3: coming on and thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: Nick so You can find me at Kaiva Rose on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.
Speaker 2: You can go to my website eleven Kaiba Rose thirty
Speaker 2: three dot com. Also, if you like fantasy novels, I
Speaker 2: have a young adult fantasy series called Rue Odyssey and
Speaker 2: you can find that at Rue Odyssey rou Oudissey dot com.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you very much, and Brandon
Speaker 1: sure wrap.
Speaker 4: It up, so let's do it. Thank you, ladies. This
Speaker 4: was fantastic. It's always wonderful to also be able to
Speaker 4: speak to those who are also seem to have a
Speaker 4: tap into authenticity and honesty in a sphere which is
Speaker 4: full of grifters, and so that's fantastic. So thank you.
Speaker 4: I look forward to hearing more from you both. And Kaiva,
Speaker 4: as always, you're brilliant and everyone should go out and
Speaker 4: read her Rue Odyssey trilogy. The third one is being
Speaker 4: written as we speak, even though she's right here, she's
Speaker 4: writing it as we speak. It's amazing and I think
Speaker 4: everyone should read it. She's a fantastic traditional astrologer and
Speaker 4: I think she's one of the best there is. Anyway,
Speaker 4: everyone go out and check out Magus in the media.
Speaker 4: Subscribe I can share again. The world is getting darker,
Speaker 4: and it's always darkest before the dawn, and that means
Speaker 4: that renaissance, I truly believe is on the precipice. Channels
Speaker 4: like the occult Rejects, Magason, the media and the like.
Speaker 4: We're all here to help illuminate the shadows and the dark.
Speaker 4: So just choke go check out all this stuff. Life's great.
Speaker 4: Thanks Nick as always.
Speaker 1: Of course, yes we do. Thank you. So that was amazing,
Speaker 1: love it, ladies, Marianna you want.
Speaker 6: To go ahead, yeah, thanks so much for having me
Speaker 6: on again.
Speaker 3: It was so fun.
Speaker 6: I loved it a great time. And you can find
Speaker 6: me at Persephanie Sister dot com, per Sephanie Sister pretty
Speaker 6: much anywhere, Instagram, substack, YouTube on all those places, and
Speaker 6: check out my book Taro and the Psychology of the Soul,
Speaker 6: which is out now. And if you want to learn
Speaker 6: more about Archetypal Taro than my upcoming class, I have
Speaker 6: a beginner's class available too as well, and then a
Speaker 6: little bit more of an intermediate class the Archetable Terror School.
Speaker 6: So all that's available where you find me you'll see
Speaker 6: information about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, Thank you so much. In Christina, please.
Speaker 5: Thanks everyone lovely to be here, meet new people, and yeah,
Speaker 5: just have this conversation. My stuff again, I don't know.
Speaker 5: Christina Farilla dot com is my website. Can find me
Speaker 5: at Eighth House Astro on Instagram, TikTok, I'm on substack.
Speaker 5: And yeah, my class, the School of Astrological Arcana, opens
Speaker 5: late April, and my book Divination for Dummies is out
Speaker 5: April twenty eighth. So those are the things. And yeah,
Speaker 5: I appreciate the time and space.
Speaker 1: That's right. Well, so I forgot about that book and
Speaker 1: I have to remember that. I'm going to hit you
Speaker 1: up for that. Okay, awesome again, thank you both. I
Speaker 1: really thought this was an awesome chat. I really had
Speaker 1: a great time and I could tell. I mean, the
Speaker 1: people in the chat loved it as well. So I
Speaker 1: really appreciate it from both of yous, and you know,
Speaker 1: Kaiva and Brandon. Amazing stuff. And thank you everybody in
Speaker 1: the chat. And Howard, thank you again. My man. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to end up like sending you a toe
Speaker 1: or something at this point, am I first born? I
Speaker 1: don't think that's how it happens. This guy sent me
Speaker 1: so much freaking money. Thank you, Howard.
Speaker 2: But thank.
Speaker 1: But uh yeah, so uh yeah, that's I guess that's
Speaker 1: why I go live now too. But no, but besides
Speaker 1: everybody coming in the chat and giving the questions or
Speaker 1: whatever comments, that's why I go live. I love it.
Speaker 1: I like everybody adding to it as well. And that
Speaker 1: is the end of another Occult Rejects and until the
Speaker 1: next one, everybody be well later