1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,879 Speaker 1: Are UFOs new that Pentagon wants you to think so. However, 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,919 scientists like doctor Jacques Vallet have studied this for decades. 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,439 Doctor Valet joins us to discuss his latest book, Forbidden Science, 4 00:00:14,519 --> 00:00:19,679 six Scattered Castles, the NIDS, Bigelow, UFO government database, Close 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,600 Encounters of the Third Kind, and whether he is part 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:27,000 of Steven Spielberg's upcoming UFO movie, Let's get to It. 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,320 Hey everyone, I'm Matt Ford and welcome to the Good 8 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:40,200 Trouble Show. On November sixteenth, nineteen seventy seven, Steven Spielberg's 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,280 movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind hit the silver 10 00:00:43,359 --> 00:00:47,159 screen across America, bringing the UFO topic to the masses 11 00:00:47,399 --> 00:00:51,079 like never before. Now as a kid, this movie sparked 12 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:55,159 my imagination and interest in UFOs otherwise known as UAP. 13 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:59,399 One of my favorite characters in the film was Claude Lacombe, 14 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:02,799 a French scientists who led the government's effort to contact 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,359 the extraterrestrial visitors. Now, in late March, we were joined 16 00:01:06,359 --> 00:01:10,319 by the real French scientist who inspired that character, doctor 17 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:14,040 Jacques Valet. But first, please hit the subscribe and thumbs 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,959 up buttons on YouTube, leave comment, and let us know 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,079 what you think about this episode. You can also find 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,519 us on x at Good Trouble Show and everywhere else 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,439 at The Good Trouble Show. You can also find us 22 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:29,840 wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Search for The Good Trouble 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,159 Show with Matt Ford and as always, we really appreciate it. 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,120 If you want to chip in to keep the lights 25 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:37,680 on here, you can become a Patreon member of The 26 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:41,879 Good Trouble Show by going to www dot patreon dot 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,640 com forward slash the Good Trouble Show. Sign up and 28 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:49,040 you can support our great work here. Super chats are 29 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:53,159 also open and another great way to show your financial support. 30 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,280 We always appreciate it. 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:54,879 Speaker 2: Okay. 32 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:57,879 Speaker 1: Today's guest is not only one of the most influential 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:03,480 figures in studying unexplained from but also an astrophysicist, computer scientist, 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,840 and venture capitalist. If that's not enough, he helped map 35 00:02:06,959 --> 00:02:10,800 Mars for NASA and was part of the Internet's early development. 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,240 Here with his new book Forbidden Science Six Scattered Castles. 37 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:19,599 Please welcome doctor Jacques Valet Jacques, how are you, sir? 38 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: You excellent? 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,199 Speaker 1: Well, welcome to the show. It is an honor to 40 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:28,520 have you here, all right, So let's let's jump into 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,280 your latest book, Forbidden Science, Scattered Castle. So this is 42 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:37,080 the sixth in the Forbidden Science series. What, Jacques, what 43 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,680 motivated you to write the book series in this kind 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,360 of diary style format? 45 00:02:43,759 --> 00:02:54,879 Speaker 2: Then, I, you know, reading diaries is a special only 46 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:00,719 special people read diaries and biographies. Biographies are easier to 47 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,599 read because they have a beginning, a middle, and an end. 48 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,560 Diaries don't. So there, you know, on page twenty five 49 00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:14,280 you may have a particular idea and then on page 50 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:18,919 fifty one you go on to another idea. So it's 51 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:24,439 disconcerting to the readers. And I've had that criticism. Well, 52 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:29,120 you know, your ideas change as you get older and 53 00:03:29,159 --> 00:03:32,960 you exposed to both more things, more people, and so 54 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:41,199 I started going through prices, you know, at the end 55 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,639 of adolescence, I guess when I was going to be 56 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,240 a student and then a graduate student at University of 57 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:56,199 Paris so on, and there were many things happening in France. 58 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:03,280 My father had died, and I felt a need to 59 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:10,080 recenter myself and sort of look at do an inventory 60 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:14,919 of the things I knew and try to define where 61 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,480 I was going and making notes of all the things 62 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,879 that were happening. There was a war in Algeria, as 63 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:29,600 you remember, France was in deep political uproar and all 64 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,600 those things. And as a student that was fascinating, but 65 00:04:32,639 --> 00:04:36,160 it was also very scary. So I think I started 66 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,759 writing it to center myself. And then I found that 67 00:04:41,879 --> 00:04:49,360 it was a great way to sort of as a scientist, 68 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,920 to calibrate myself, to see, who knows, why am I 69 00:04:53,959 --> 00:04:57,920 thinking this at this particular time when some of my 70 00:04:58,079 --> 00:05:02,120 friends don't. I mean, I think something else. Who's right? 71 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:09,160 How would I find out? And so I kept doing it, 72 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:14,040 And then in volume two, when I was when I 73 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:17,439 came to the United States, then I found that it 74 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:24,160 was an invaluable tool to recall all the things that 75 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,720 I had to learn, and of course I took to 76 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,439 learn English. So I started writing writing it in English, 77 00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:36,120 and then I never I never stopped because it was 78 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,839 a reference for me and my wife and my family 79 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,560 and something I could go back to to understand because 80 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,680 by then I was working with doctor Heinek and I 81 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:58,560 was doing my PhD at Northwestern in Artificial intelligence nineteen 82 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:07,680 sixty seven. Artificial intelligence has a long long tail. I 83 00:06:07,759 --> 00:06:11,279 talk about going back fifty years to learn about the 84 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:17,240 next ten years. Okay, well, that's always what I've done, 85 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,959 including as a now as a as a venture investor, 86 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:24,959 you know, looking at the past to understand what a 87 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,959 new company is doing. So all of that goes into 88 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,480 the into the journal. It's not for a mass market. 89 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:38,480 It's for people who enjoy the journey and want to 90 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:44,800 have a perspective on things now maybe more, you know, 91 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:49,600 if if the Good Lord gives me the ability to 92 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:50,839 continue writing. 93 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,519 Speaker 1: I certainly hope so. I think one of the things 94 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:58,079 that I've really enjoyed about reading these books is, you 95 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,360 know a lot of times when when you're read reading 96 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,199 books you know strictly about like the research or or whatnot, 97 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,720 and and those books they don't really give you an 98 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:13,360 insight into the human being. You know, so who is 99 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,519 Jacques Valet? And so much of what I read, especially 100 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,319 what you wrote about your wife and and just your 101 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,319 personal experiences outside of outside of the UAP topic, I 102 00:07:25,399 --> 00:07:28,199 just I found it was really I just absolutely love it. 103 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,319 I found it touching, and I wish more people would 104 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:37,199 would follow that that same same writing format. I want 105 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,560 to switch to your your research, and it's it's something 106 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,199 that a question I've always had sort of like how 107 00:07:45,199 --> 00:07:48,639 do you reconcile it? But how do you approach your 108 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:54,439 scientific research regarding witness testimony? Because you'll you'll hear critics 109 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,240 say or these debunkers that will say that that witness 110 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:03,279 testimony does not constitute any sort of evidence. How do 111 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:06,079 you how do you figure that into your research work. 112 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:15,639 Speaker 2: That's a question for any scientists who leaves the laboratory 113 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:19,279 and goes out into the world. You know, it's a 114 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:25,199 also a question for physicians. You know, physicians are don't 115 00:08:25,279 --> 00:08:30,839 don't have a perfect human model. They they take whoever 116 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,799 comes through the dog, you know, with whatever ailment they have, 117 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:43,080 and you stop from there. So I felt that they 118 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,480 I had seen a UFO myself. I think they I 119 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,919 never tried to hide it. I was very clear about that. 120 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,279 And by the way, I mean, it's never harmed me 121 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,960 really in my scientific career because, for one thing, many 122 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,360 people have private observations of their own. So when you're 123 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,480 very clear about who you are and what you've seen, 124 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:17,840 that engages an interesting conversation. Sometimes it may not be published, 125 00:09:17,879 --> 00:09:25,600 but it's it's interesting. Also, people judge me by what 126 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,039 I actually did and produced in my work, and not 127 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,960 by the fact that you know, as a teenager it's seen, 128 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:38,159 it's seen something. In France. What I saw was very 129 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,679 clear because the uh, this was in the middle of 130 00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:47,080 a beautiful summer afternoon. Uh I. My mother saw it 131 00:09:47,159 --> 00:09:50,960 first and called me. I came down from inside the 132 00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:55,559 house and joined her in the yard. The thing was 133 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:02,039 very not moving. It was clearly over church he hoped was, 134 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:08,799 which is a small town about an hour out from Paris. 135 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,200 And the object was very clear. It was about half 136 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:24,080 a mile away. It was like if you took the spoon, 137 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:28,039 and it was silver spoon sideways with a little dough 138 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:33,039 on top, and it was above a church that was 139 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,159 half a mile away. We saw that. And then the 140 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,320 next day I spoke to a friend of mine from 141 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:44,600 school who told me that he had seen the same thing, 142 00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:48,399 and in fact, he had looked at it with binoculous 143 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,519 His house was another half mile up the hill from 144 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:57,720 where we were. So you have three witnesses, the middle 145 00:10:57,759 --> 00:11:02,639 of the afternoon, very clear day, no clouds in the sky. 146 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: Uh. 147 00:11:04,879 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: One of them, you know, looking at it with binoculars. 148 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:10,360 And I got him to draw it, and he drew 149 00:11:10,399 --> 00:11:15,399 the same thing I had seen. So I told my 150 00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:19,720 father My father was a judge, was a president of 151 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:25,320 the tribunal in that area, and you know, the family 152 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,720 of the judge doesn't go around looking at flying saucers. 153 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:34,320 So we never published it at the time. And he, 154 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:41,240 you know, he was a man with and as you 155 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:47,879 may know, judges in instruction, judges in France do the investigation, 156 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,000 you know, with the gendarmes or the police, but they 157 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:57,120 run the investigation. The police doesn't, okay. So he was 158 00:11:57,399 --> 00:12:03,600 very experienced with those, very experienced with war, and he 159 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:08,759 was very experienced with with the area and with people 160 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,440 and so on. He had done a number of field 161 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:18,639 investigations around the town. So he didn't question the fact 162 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,000 that we had seen this and that it was unusual. 163 00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:25,519 But he said, look, there are new aircraft coming up, 164 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,639 you know, the jets and so on, the mete oars, 165 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:32,600 if you remember the mediors, well some of the first 166 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,960 you know, jet fighters and so on, and he said, 167 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,320 there are new new technology and in the next couple 168 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,039 of years were probably this would become a common knowledge. 169 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,440 Well it didn't. And I started cataloging the cases that 170 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,639 I had access to, including the early fives of the 171 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,960 French Air Force in the late forties and early fifties 172 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:05,639 that were there before the current you know, committees that 173 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,360 are in place now with the Space Agency in fi US. 174 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,159 So that's how I got in. I got into it, 175 00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:23,120 and the the subject became more and more interesting. As 176 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,720 you may know, I was married for a long time 177 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,320 with a woman who was a child psychologist. Many of 178 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:36,200 the witnesses were children, so and and children don't don't lie, 179 00:13:36,399 --> 00:13:40,440 or if they lie, they lie in you know, as 180 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,759 a as a joke or as in a particular way. 181 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,960 She was a student of Caget in Switzerland and Paris, 182 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:55,559 and had had been a school teacher, so had long 183 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:03,879 experience with kids. And very often when we were looking 184 00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:07,799 into a case, you know, the whole family had seen 185 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,639 the thing, so she would take the she would go 186 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,279 into the kitchen and talk to the wife and the 187 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:19,759 kids when I was talking to the pontificating men, you know, 188 00:14:19,919 --> 00:14:25,679 adults who were speculating about what they had seen. So 189 00:14:27,519 --> 00:14:31,559 the kids are wonderful, and I learned to listen to 190 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:37,159 kids carefully and try to put the different pieces of 191 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,039 an observation together. And that has helped me a lot, 192 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,519 you know, throughout my life. 193 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:47,679 Speaker 1: I'm curious, you're talking about how you saw what you 194 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,600 saw when I'm sorry, what age were you eight or nine? 195 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:55,039 Speaker 2: I think I was fourteen or fifteen, and that was 196 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,799 in pourtoise. 197 00:14:57,399 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: How much do you think They let me back up 198 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,600 a bit so I have not seen any or I 199 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,759 had not seen anything uap wise, literally my entire life 200 00:15:10,279 --> 00:15:15,159 until I began communicating with Robert Hastings. I decided I 201 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,240 was going to do some writing about it, and it 202 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,480 also communicated with the national security staff of a United 203 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:25,120 States senator and literally about I think it was just 204 00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:28,799 a few days later, started having some paranormal stuff happen 205 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:31,799 in the home. And then a few days later I 206 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:36,039 was outside at night and a orb appeared above above 207 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,879 the home, and I posed this question to, you know, 208 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:42,559 to Chris Mellen, because I asked myself, It's like, well, 209 00:15:42,799 --> 00:15:46,600 if my entire adult life, I'd never had anything happen, 210 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,519 and then all of a sudden, I'm actively mentally engaging 211 00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:55,480 with a phenomenon, thinking about it and whatnot, and then 212 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,399 poof it appears. And I've had this orb appeer probably 213 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,559 around ten times so far. The sort of poltergeist activity 214 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,080 only lasted for around four to six months. But do 215 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:12,639 you think that mentally engaging with the phenomenon causes it 216 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,559 to react. 217 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's possible hypothesis. I would be the 218 00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:29,279 counter example, because I've never seen anything else since what 219 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,759 I saw as a teenager. My wife did, and it 220 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:41,000 took me a long time to really get recincided with that. 221 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:50,039 Speaker 4: We I built a little observatory on my own up 222 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,120 in the forest in the Redwood Forest north of San Francisco, 223 00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:57,240 and we had that property where we went mostly on 224 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:03,080 weekends and holidays with the kids for over fifteen years. 225 00:17:03,159 --> 00:17:07,279 Speaker 2: And that would have been an ideal place for something 226 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,960 to happen because the nearest neighbors were half a mile 227 00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:15,759 away and there was this observatory with a dorm on 228 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,920 top in the middle of the redwood forest. So that's 229 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:26,440 something that it was a discontinuity in the landscape, and 230 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:31,680 it should have attracted the attention of somebody. It didn't, 231 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,440 or at least I wasn't aware of it, except for 232 00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:40,759 the bear who were coming well big around, you know, 233 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:48,799 looking for garbage, so that which was the only intruders. 234 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,759 The one night we were sleeping in that little observatory 235 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,880 there was one bedroom, and my wife woke up and 236 00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:06,319 saw two little lights like, you know, like those those 237 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:11,960 little globes that people described, you know, quite small, moving around. 238 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,880 There were books on around the walls at their ears, 239 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,720 as you can tell, I love books, and it was 240 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,000 just going around, and by the time she woke me up, 241 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,960 it was it was gone, so I did not see it. 242 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,680 And then we eventually our kids grew up, and we 243 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,440 sold the ranch, moved back to the city. But the 244 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:47,559 last night she was still there finishing, you know, wrapping 245 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,000 up things that we had sold the place to our 246 00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:56,799 neighbors who were a winery that wanted to expand, and 247 00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:00,440 so this was all very you know, very friendly, and 248 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:05,000 she was ready to leave the last night. There are 249 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:08,480 no curtains on the windows anymore. There's a big. 250 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: Light, big bright, white blue virtual violet light moving down 251 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:24,119 the path in front of the house, slowly illuminating the forest, 252 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,559 illuminating everything. 253 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,599 Speaker 2: She gets up, goes to see it, and the thing 254 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:36,079 follows the the driveway all the way to the to 255 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:42,680 the road that goes goes back to the town. Ah, 256 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:49,359 you know, as if to say goodbye. And this was 257 00:19:49,519 --> 00:19:55,000 exactly what I was hoping to catch. Although you know, 258 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,400 this was at ground level. I don't know why it 259 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,279 used the road. Sure, it's only was not a car. 260 00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:05,920 It was sort of the symbol of you know, leaving. 261 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,920 And that's of course the wond she took in the 262 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:15,039 morning too, as we left the property. Things like that. 263 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:26,400 They they seemed to engage definitely at that They engage 264 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:32,640 at their own level, in their own template, their own 265 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,720 vocabulary of events, and that can be very very disconcerting. 266 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:48,119 And uh, you know, I'm a little angry that I 267 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,680 wasn't there at the time she wal to see it. 268 00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:01,960 H And No, I have had no other range expenses 269 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,319 of that type. I've suddenly studied psychology, you know, had 270 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:12,000 as you know, experiments with peopleank Ino Swan and Uri 271 00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:14,960 Geller and so, but they had nothing to do with 272 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:16,359 this subject. 273 00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about In your book, you discussed the 274 00:21:20,519 --> 00:21:24,319 database you created for NIDS and Robert Bigelow. 275 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:27,079 Speaker 4: I have. 276 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:32,519 Speaker 2: Much of my work in our computer science now Pristal 277 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:41,599 Observatory had the task to maintain the catalog of right stars. 278 00:21:42,079 --> 00:21:44,599 You know, there are about ten thousand right styles that 279 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,839 you can see visually, and ten thousand is not a 280 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,880 big number, but every star we know a lot of 281 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,759 things about that style, so it gets to be an interesting, 282 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,240 an interesting five. And I was maintaining it at the 283 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:10,079 University of Texas. First, working with Geraldo Vocula, I had 284 00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:20,160 recompiled the Catalog of Galaxies observatory had the task to 285 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,000 maintain the catalog of right stars. You know, there are 286 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,039 about ten thousand right stars that you can see visually, 287 00:22:28,519 --> 00:22:34,359 and ten thousand is not a big number, but every 288 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,680 star we know a lot of things about that style, 289 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:42,799 so it gets to be an interesting, an interesting five. 290 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,279 And I was maintaining it at the University of Texas. First, 291 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:54,599 working with Geraldo Vucula, I had recompiled the catalog of 292 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,880 galaxies that we were maintaining, which was the first complete 293 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,599 you know at the time catalog of galactic spectra and 294 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,039 galactic astrophysics, and the team had been working on that 295 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,759 and it was my job to reform at it so 296 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:19,920 they could be published. So I had that background with large, 297 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,279 large catalogs in astronomy, in austrophysics, and then I did 298 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,759 the same thing for UFOs, and I started corresponding and 299 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:34,240 in part inspiring others to do the same thing. So 300 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,240 when not only at NEEDS but later at BASS, which 301 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,759 was classified, I was in charge of the computer project, 302 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:51,279 and almost half of the budget went into deploying a 303 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:58,599 team that could translate. We had four translators in the team, 304 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:07,559 you know, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese and French retranslating the other 305 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,599 fives we had. I built really a series of databases, 306 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:18,559 which should people call it a data warehouse where because 307 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:22,519 you can you cannot have the same structure for a 308 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,599 database from pilots and a database from farmers because they 309 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,279 measure different things with different instruments or different visual impressions. 310 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,880 So we we did all that and to my knowledge 311 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:41,759 it's still classified. There. They have been a couple of 312 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,640 couple of books that have mentioned the structure that I 313 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,319 put together, you know, to begin this. The project was 314 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:52,519 stopped after only two years, so we got the chance 315 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:58,559 to introduce the what I had designed already, which was 316 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,599 the AI you know, the validation of the data and 317 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,559 then the AI processing of the data. We thought we 318 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,039 had five years and the project was killed after only 319 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,839 two years. So I cannot go into into that, but 320 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:24,039 the that would be the way to one way two 321 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:31,480 ascertain the validity of theories about the UFO phenomenon in 322 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,640 connection with the visual sightings that we have and the 323 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,839 sightings from pilots and every all the recordings that we have. 324 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:47,319 Now we don't have the database. So and the to me, 325 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:54,359 the thing that's emotional about this is that we let 326 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,200 the whole team go. You know, a team that was 327 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,960 that had been very carefully assembled by doctor kell Her 328 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,519 and by mister Biggerol was a great team. Uh you know, 329 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,000 about thirty people who worked on that, on that database, 330 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:19,599 including reinvestigating certain cases and from so on, and then 331 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,640 doing all the translations. That's that's a treasure. And it's 332 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,119 just so the treasure was in the heads of people 333 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:34,240 because what what people don't seem to understand is that 334 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,640 in a novel area like this, you can you can 335 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:43,240 hire you know, a PhD In astru physics from Harvard 336 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:51,039 and uh, you know, an expert in uh the medieval records, 337 00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:56,160 you know, from from Columbia, and you put them on 338 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,000 your team to study this problem. They will be useless 339 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:04,440 for two years. You know. They have to absorb the 340 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,119 history of how the research has been done, where the 341 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,359 records come from, how they've been calibrated, what were the 342 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,759 records that they don't have that they should go out 343 00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:21,319 and look for. Maybe given their their skill, but they 344 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,200 have a skill that they've required in another area, you know, 345 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:33,160 as as I did with computer programming and astrophysics. But 346 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,640 that doesn't make me expert in UFOs. You know. Then 347 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,759 you have to apply what you've known to that material, 348 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,240 and you have to do it as a team. Where 349 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:47,759 we had the team, you know, and mister Biggelow build 350 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,079 the team for you know, for the government in a 351 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,960 classified project. All of us had top secret clearances, and 352 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,799 you know, we were talking about the physics doctor put 353 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:04,759 off Dr Green for the medical side and so on, 354 00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:11,359 and all that has been dissipated for reasons. I'm known 355 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,720 in Washington somewhere, somebody just you know, essentially took the 356 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:23,519 money and did something else with it. So that I'm 357 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:27,799 not getting into another government project of any kind, you know, 358 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,480 I'm going to concentrate on what I know, what I 359 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,319 can do with myself. Now, it turns out that with 360 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,960 the progress that has been made in computer science just 361 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,279 in the last five years, I can do a lot 362 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:45,400 of things with just a few friends and a couple 363 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,079 of modern computers. So That's what I'm going to do. 364 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,759 Speaker 1: Now, do you know, have you heard for instance, if 365 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:58,440 if Arrow like doctor Sean Kirkpatrick did. Did they ever 366 00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:02,000 request access to this database? Are you aware of any 367 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,359 request of that nature? 368 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,799 Speaker 2: The request by whom. 369 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:09,359 Speaker 1: By Arrow, you know, a Pentagon's era All Domain and 370 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,039 Holy Resolution Office or any other organization. 371 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: I do not know the answer to that, and if 372 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:24,839 I did, I probably couldn't. He couldn't talk about it. Sure. 373 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,599 The only thing I did is at the time of 374 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:37,200 the hearings, I was asked to go back to Washington 375 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:44,440 and uh uh recalled, you know, the go over those 376 00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:52,000 those times with someone from the from the Intelligence Committee 377 00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,079 of the Senate. UH. And I did that, went into 378 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,359 a skiff with him where I could talk about at 379 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,039 the level of of the clearance and tell him about 380 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:05,880 but what had happened and what had happened to the 381 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:13,960 database that at this point that you know, when you 382 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,839 come right down to it, people are impressed with the numbers. 383 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,839 We have over two hundred and thirty thousand cases filtered 384 00:30:24,279 --> 00:30:33,680 and rationalized in this large database to twelve databases. Yeah, 385 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,119 but it's at the end of the day, it's you know, 386 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,680 it's a bucket of bits. Sure, the intelligence was in 387 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:48,240 the heads of the people we trained at the beginning. 388 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:52,519 We gave a series of lectures doctor put Off, Doctor Green, 389 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:58,640 and I and of course doctor Keller trained that team 390 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:05,680 of investigators mostly and the translators to compile the database. 391 00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:10,240 And they're gone. So the the we may still have 392 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:16,039 the information somewhere, but we don't have the intelligence. The 393 00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:21,960 intelligence has been vapor lives. Now. 394 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,119 Speaker 1: In your book, you discuss, uh, you use the term 395 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,559 active measures, which I mean that really caught my eye. 396 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,839 What are active measures? And do you think that those 397 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:36,519 these measures measures? Excuse me, I can't talk. Do you 398 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,279 think these measures are still in effect today? 399 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: Well? Active measures is you know, I certainly enriched my 400 00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:52,359 vocabulary when I started working side by side with people 401 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,839 from the classified world. It's like scattered castles, you know. 402 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,720 The scattered castle castles is the database of classified projects 403 00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:07,160 that you want to go to if if you have, 404 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,640 you know, a clearance, and you need to know about 405 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:17,039 some other projects that might correspond to the girls. There's 406 00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:21,039 I don't know if a term comes from the CIA 407 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,839 or from the Russians. I believe it's a translation from 408 00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:33,519 the Russian. It's the the art of It's an art. 409 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,480 It's not a scientific methodology. It's the art of taking 410 00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:48,160 information that either is true or might be true, and 411 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:56,519 twisting it for a political or propaganda game and uh, 412 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,160 and then inserting it into the news and in a 413 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,079 way where it looks like it looks like nuts. It 414 00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:12,319 just isn't true. Oh it is, but it's not false either. 415 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,920 It's almost it's partially true. So it's believable if somebody 416 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,319 does research on it, except that something has been twisted 417 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,759 to represent something else, and it's it's extremely powerful, it's 418 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:36,440 extremely deceptive. I think future historians are going to have 419 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:43,720 a very hard time looking at our news and reconstructing 420 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:48,319 what really happened. I mean, who who who did it? 421 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:56,920 We did the you know who had the knife? And 422 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,920 it's it's a game that we're playing with the Russians 423 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:04,079 mainly and also with the Chinese, of essentially poll udinge 424 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:10,480 everyday information in order to twist the data in a 425 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:14,519 particular way that's harmful to the other side. Now the 426 00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:18,360 fact that UFOs of course can be used to do that, 427 00:34:18,519 --> 00:34:23,039 you know, there are there are stories planting that well, 428 00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:29,440 thanks to our close friendship with the Aliens, we've already 429 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:35,000 been on Mars, you know, and there are all kinds 430 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:41,039 of stories like that. One one way I can. And 431 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,960 this was explained to me. I mean, they set me 432 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:46,519 down and there said Jack, you need to learn about 433 00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:51,639 a few things. Suppose that you have you're building an 434 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,719 atom bomb. There you're at, you know, in New Mexico, 435 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,639 building an at on bomb. And you know that among 436 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,159 the thousand people who build, who work on the ball, 437 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:11,440 there must be spies, German spies, Russian spies, whatever. You 438 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,519 want to find the spies, but you can't because they 439 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:18,440 are very good. You could find them if you could 440 00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:21,280 find the people they talk to when they send a 441 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,280 report to Moscow. So you're going to plant the story 442 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,199 in Moscow, not in New Mexico at the other end, 443 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,840 and you're going to work your way backwards into the 444 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:41,639 people who might have some communication with Moscow that could 445 00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:46,079 be carrying information back and forth about the secret thing. 446 00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:52,679 You're doing. What better way than seeding or rumor in 447 00:35:52,920 --> 00:36:04,000 pravd inocuously about something of interest that's very specific and 448 00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:09,840 then seeing if it pops up in New Mexico and 449 00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:15,039 who knows about it in New Mexico, And then you 450 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,400 may have two ends of an interesting string. See what 451 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,559 I mean? Now, that's going to be to do that. 452 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:27,639 You're going to come up with the cock and bull story. 453 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,199 And it doesn't matter what it is. It could be 454 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,880 about soccer, it could be about the moon, it could 455 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,360 be about anything. It just has to catch the attention 456 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,280 of specific people at a specific time that I never 457 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,320 knew about that. I mean, it's not even in spy 458 00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:53,679 novels that you can as it's just a technique. Now. 459 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,440 The problem to me, I mean, I don't care about 460 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,360 what they do with that. It's say a job. The 461 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,760 problem with me is that it pollutes my database, and 462 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:10,159 I yeah, I'm trying to keep it clean. Uh. In 463 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:14,360 my in one of my books, I mentioned some cases 464 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:22,920 from Russia where there was there was a man who 465 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,119 told the story in Russia that came came. As you know, 466 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:37,800 I went to Russia several times looking for information about 467 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,480 their space programs and actually invited there with journalists from 468 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,920 from France, and I've published what we found out because 469 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,840 they were open to talking about was at the time. Well, 470 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:55,920 there was a man who had been told by a 471 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,880 friend of yours who worked in a in the Russian 472 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,639 space program, that there were UFOs that they were seeing 473 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,320 and that if he came with him to the top 474 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,119 of the hill in the evening, they would he could 475 00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:16,320 show him they were film. So they did that. They 476 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,800 got to this place in the evening, and he saw 477 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:27,840 he saw essentially a fan of light, of intense light 478 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,599 that was yellow and orange and red, and that that 479 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,519 sort of disk just went up in the sky and disappeared. Well, 480 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,000 I published that. That's an interesting thing that somebody told me. 481 00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:51,360 And a skeptic actually from from Los Angeles who follows 482 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:57,000 a space program wrote to me and said he saw 483 00:38:57,159 --> 00:39:01,679 the proton well kept taking off. They were miles and 484 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,719 miles from the launch. 485 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,519 Speaker 4: Bad uh. 486 00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:12,159 Speaker 2: And of course the the it was a launch. It 487 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,760 was an illegal launch of the satellite that carried radioactive 488 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:23,199 radioactive stuff in violation of the agreement we had with 489 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,679 the Soviet Union at the top. And they they they 490 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:34,320 validated the agreement by carrying nuclear nuclear radioactive material in 491 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:43,559 there in in their satellites. And the he of course 492 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:46,000 couldn't see the rocket, but he could see the exhaust. 493 00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:50,920 The exhaust was like, you know, like this this corne 494 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,519 of extraping bringer by going up in the sky. Uh. 495 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,719 And he was he was told it was a flying saucer. 496 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,159 Because then the story for people like me, the story 497 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,079 can get into the literaly shut and then the next 498 00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:11,239 time people see a you know, light going up in 499 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,800 the sky, you know, all the Siberia, they're going to say, oh, 500 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,000 that's another flying saucer, and they won't think of any 501 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:26,360 illegal satellite. Note the stories like that, you know, I 502 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:34,440 was never talked about about that, about that that part 503 00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:40,199 of the game, but it's sort of fascinating and to me, again, 504 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,280 I need to know about that because when it pollutes 505 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,559 the actual databases that we have, and I certainly don't 506 00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:50,199 want to be fooled by that. The same thing about 507 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,280 all the crashes and so on, I learned to Yeah, 508 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,000 some of them are true and some of them they 509 00:40:56,119 --> 00:40:58,280 may not may not be true. 510 00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: Sure, I want to ask you a question about, you know, 511 00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:05,639 where this is, where all of this may be from. 512 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,000 So probably two three years ago I had a conversation 513 00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:14,039 with a national security individual that worked in a senator's office, 514 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,199 and this person said it was about a thirty minute 515 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,840 conversation and at the end of it, this person said, 516 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,000 we may never know where this is from our entire 517 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,360 entire life if this did turn out to be extraterrestrial, 518 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,559 and that's solely where it's from would that disappoint you? 519 00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:46,679 Speaker 2: And if so, why, well, yeah, it's shocking. But you know, 520 00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:52,320 in any science you have that problem. You work on this, 521 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,000 but you work on something all your life, you become 522 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,280 a great professor, You teach your students and so on 523 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,440 about what you know today. Cannot reconcile it with gone 524 00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:10,719 on mechanics. Really, there will be that branch of science 525 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,559 will die, probably both of them, and something else is 526 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:19,760 going to replace it. You know that, Okay? In the 527 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,800 same thing in medicine, I mean we if you talk 528 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,119 to medical researchers, they will admit that there are many 529 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:31,639 things that they've been researching. Well. For example, a very 530 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,119 simple example, uh, in in medicine is we don't know 531 00:42:36,199 --> 00:42:43,440 what determines the time of birth of a baby. There 532 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,320 are now now there are you know, hypotheses about exactly 533 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,360 what triggers it. But you know, you may have a 534 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,960 woman with a baby and the baby is ready but 535 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,519 uh and should be born, but it isn't, and then 536 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,559 all of a sudden, you know, the birth process starts. Well, 537 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:12,000 what is it that determines it? Uh? An astrologer would say, 538 00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:16,440 it's a conjunction of venus with Jupiter. You know that 539 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,559 that times it, but it's more likely that there is 540 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:27,639 an exchange of signals between the organism of the baby 541 00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:32,719 would change, you know, ready and the mother I'm ready. 542 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,880 When you're ready, Well tell me when you're ready, and 543 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,320 I'm ready, and so on, and that can go on 544 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,400 for a long time. You have the same thing in electronics. 545 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,199 You know that, and then then there is a signal 546 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,639 that ends the exchange, and then the baby is born 547 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:56,559 very quickly. So we don't understand that process. I mean 548 00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:02,159 it's a part of information exchange, very complex, very subtle 549 00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:06,400 information exchange and the biology of the mother and the 550 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:12,760 biology of the baby. You have the same thing in austrophysics. 551 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,159 I mean I worked for Professor Stuac for two years. 552 00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:21,679 We published a number of papers about the structure of 553 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,360 the Sun, the structure of the corona, and also about 554 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,760 you know, neutral styles and things like that. That's what 555 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,039 we were researching. Well, try to explain the corona of 556 00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:40,920 the Sun. The corona is completely outside the Sun. The 557 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:50,079 sun surface is cold in astrophysics terms, and you know, 558 00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:53,079 the inside of the Sun is at millions of degrees, 559 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:56,480 the surface is at ten thousand degrees. You know, which 560 00:44:56,519 --> 00:45:00,760 is essentially, when you do the model of the Sun, 561 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,239 you assume that temperature of the surface is zero, because 562 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,840 ten thousand degrees of heat is essentially zero in terms 563 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:16,079 of astrophysics. So it's a good enough approximation, which amazed 564 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,960 at the beginning, and I started working with those models. 565 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,559 So the surface of the Sun is called the corona, 566 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,760 is at three million degrees And how did that happen? 567 00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:36,039 I mean, the corona is a plasma that we see 568 00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:40,199 only in the complete eclipse. You know what you see. 569 00:45:40,519 --> 00:45:43,079 Of course, you don't see the Sun that you see 570 00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:49,960 the corona. It's away from the Sun. Well, for a 571 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,199 long time that was that was I mean many astronomers 572 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,039 worked on this and died without knowing the answer. Yeah, 573 00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:01,239 that's what you have to be to do in science. 574 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,000 You work on something, you push it a little bit, 575 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:06,840 and then something else happens. 576 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:11,079 Speaker 1: Finally, in your book, and this really really kind of 577 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,519 stopped me in my tracks, you speak about how disclosure 578 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,320 would and I don't know the exact quote in front 579 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,039 of me, but basically you were saying that how disclosure 580 00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:29,360 could bring about the reality of NHI worldwide and that 581 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:36,079 and you're opening a door that could never be shut. 582 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,760 And you know, so that leads me to the question, 583 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,199 in all of your years of researching the phenomenon, do 584 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,880 you think disclosure is in the best interest of humanity 585 00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:53,079 or is it best to leave that door shut. 586 00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: We could that disclosure could have happened at three times 587 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,360 really in history. It could have happened in the fifties, 588 00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:08,400 once we knew that this was not the Russians and 589 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:15,280 this was not the Chinese, and it would have been 590 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:21,039 fascinating to people in the fifties or sixties, mid sixties, 591 00:47:21,519 --> 00:47:24,599 because people knew that eventually we were going to go 592 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,559 in space. In fact, it would have been a great 593 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:30,559 argument from us, you know, to say, look, look, there 594 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,079 seems to be life out there. Let's go meet Okay. 595 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,639 It would not have been a big problem to manage 596 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:49,960 the impact on the public. That wasn't done because probably 597 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,039 because people thought there was technology there that we could 598 00:47:54,239 --> 00:48:00,559 acquire and do something with which was which was ridiculous 599 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,920 because it was just so much so different from what 600 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,920 we can do. It should have happened again in the 601 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:15,079 fifties mid fifties, at the time of the Battel Institute 602 00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:21,519 had done this beautiful research, the report on the statistics 603 00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:25,800 from a Project blue Book and the Air Force that 604 00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:31,159 was again kept secrets, and there are many little manipulations 605 00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:35,000 that I've written about. At that time, doctor Heinech was there. 606 00:48:35,119 --> 00:48:40,639 I discussed it with doctor Heinech. They felt that if 607 00:48:40,679 --> 00:48:45,519 they released the information it would scare people too much, 608 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,559 and that they should first get the answer and then 609 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,639 organize how the answer would be delivered to their people. 610 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,239 I think that's a mistake. I think, you know, as 611 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,519 a as a father of two kids three grand kids, 612 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,199 I found out very much when there is a problem, 613 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,280 you should tell the kids. You shouldn't try to hide it. 614 00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:13,960 You shouldn't try to you know, if there is a 615 00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:18,920 problem in the house or somebody is ill in the family, 616 00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:23,440 you should tell the truth. And if you don't, you're 617 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,159 going to create a lot of problems for yourself. And 618 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,440 it's the same thing here and the fact now we 619 00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:33,880 should have told the truth, you know, at the time 620 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:43,079 of the Content commission, we didn't. That was very disappointing. 621 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,400 I mean at that point I resigned from the things 622 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,760 I was doing in Chicago, and my wife and I 623 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,320 went back to France because I felt, if that's American science, 624 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,400 I don't want any part of it, you know, the 625 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,519 New York Times and using the negative conclude usions of 626 00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:05,280 the content committee, uh and uh, and then people standing 627 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,840 up on the five o'clock news, you know, saying, go 628 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,960 go on with your life. There is nothing to UFOs. 629 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,679 I mean, those were lives that were organized and planted 630 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,760 and so on. And I thought, if that's a meericon science, 631 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,480 you know, I don't want to be top of that. 632 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:28,840 I came back eventually because because I found a way 633 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:35,079 to get back into science. The if we the problem 634 00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:40,199 now is that you have it's not a question of disclosure. 635 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:45,360 I mean the disclosure is would be would be pointless 636 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,519 because everybody knows about it. I mean, it's not just 637 00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:52,960 a few pilots you know in f eighteen. It's every 638 00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:56,280 farmer you talk to in in in Texas or in 639 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,599 Kansas is going to tell you Yeah, I mean we 640 00:50:59,679 --> 00:51:01,960 you know, we've seen them, and my kids, I've seen 641 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,599 them with the pictures of them with it scares my cattle, 642 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,719 you know. And look at the things with the bigger 643 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:14,639 old ranch now in uh, you know, and you know 644 00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:17,400 it's it's all over the all over the place. So 645 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,360 people know that it's there and who's kidding. 646 00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 4: Uh. 647 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,760 Speaker 2: So the only people who don't know it's there are 648 00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:31,119 you know, in in Washington. So if now, if we 649 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:40,880 don't come clean with everything we can tell, uh we're 650 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:48,679 going to stop a conspiracy climate in the country. That's 651 00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,320 going to be very difficult, you know, and people just 652 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,079 mistrusting the government about everything, you know, if they don't 653 00:51:59,079 --> 00:52:02,880 tell us about this, which we already know, right and 654 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,800 we've heard from the scientists who actually work on it, 655 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,960 And if they don't come clean with that, what do 656 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,599 we know? What is it we don't know? You know, 657 00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:18,559 what are the potential threats? Tell us? And that's the 658 00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:21,280 main thing that I hear from, you know, when I 659 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,559 go visit the farm or a ranch somewhere, they said, 660 00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:28,639 you know, why don't they tell us? You know, this 661 00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:33,559 is this is hurting my cattle? He said, Guy told me, 662 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:42,159 I go into when I do an investigation, you know, 663 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,039 I go to the site and i'm they know I'm coming, 664 00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,079 and they give me a cup of coffee. We talk 665 00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:51,239 about and they've seen. And then I always ask a question, 666 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,440 do any of your neighbors, you know, have they seen anything? 667 00:52:56,079 --> 00:53:00,519 And often people will say, oh, yea, yeah, you know, 668 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,519 so and so down the street. Uh, you know, he 669 00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:07,000 had something happened to his cattle and so and he's 670 00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:09,800 never reported it, but you know, we talk about it 671 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,480 at the market. His wife talked to my wife and 672 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,360 and so I go there. I knock on the door 673 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,840 and I say, you know, your neighbor says, you saw something. 674 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,760 I'm a scientist. I'm trying to understand. And those are 675 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,880 the best cases because they will never reported to anybody, 676 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,400 not to the air Force, not to the government, not 677 00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:34,679 to the police, you know, not to the shehrif it's 678 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,920 just here, say, within the community. I love those because 679 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:46,679 it's it's you know, straight straightforward. And I went like 680 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:52,280 that one evening to our house where something had happened 681 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,079 to the cattle. And I go in and there's a 682 00:53:56,119 --> 00:54:00,519 gun next to the door. And we start talking to 683 00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:04,440 the people and I say, what's the gun for? And 684 00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:07,960 he says, well, the next time this light comes over 685 00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:13,320 my ranch, I'm going to should the hell out of it. Okay, now, 686 00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:17,159 this is this is real. Okay, this is not something 687 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:20,199 right somebody made up it in Hollywood. You know that's 688 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:27,880 real that that that gun is roaded and uh, the 689 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:33,000 this is not healthy. I mean we should tell people 690 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,519 and what do we know? What is it? We don't 691 00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:39,960 know what are the potential dangers here? You know, what 692 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,199 what should people be prepared for? And he said, you know, 693 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,880 now we bring this to my cattle, are they going 694 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,679 to do the same thing to my kids tomorrow? All right? 695 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,519 Take them up, mutilate them, kill them, you know they 696 00:54:57,039 --> 00:55:02,239 and that is not health. This is not the way 697 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,960 government should be hit. So that's you know, that's that's 698 00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:13,559 my that's my problem. All all the candidates for presidents say, 699 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,320 you know, there's always a report in the room who says, 700 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:21,400 are you going to disclose the books about UFOs and 701 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,599 all the records? And they say, sure, yes, uh, you know, hey, 702 00:55:25,679 --> 00:55:30,840 I Clinton said she was going to disclose everything. Of course, 703 00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:38,280 President Trump said that he hasn't disclosed anything yet. I 704 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,239 think what happens is that so far, you know, they 705 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,639 may have been vice president, they were not president of 706 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,559 the United States. The moment your president, they're going to 707 00:55:50,599 --> 00:55:56,440 take you to a place downstairs, closed the door, and 708 00:55:56,519 --> 00:56:00,760 the two guys and you know, jeans and no tie 709 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,119 are going to tell you and all the things you 710 00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:09,199 need to know to run the country. And I think 711 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,559 that's after that you're not going to want to disclose 712 00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:18,239 a number of things, because you those are the things 713 00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,000 that you may have to face and the things that 714 00:56:21,039 --> 00:56:26,000 you may have to work with. When President Roosevelt died, 715 00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:31,079 something I researched when I wrote my book about Trinity. Uh, 716 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:39,760 mister Truman was adjusting his tie to go to a 717 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,719 gala evening with his wife. His wife was uh uh, 718 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,880 you know, was dressed for the occasion. A guy from 719 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:55,000 the White House drove to Truman's home in his own 720 00:56:55,039 --> 00:57:03,519 car and approached Truman. Then said, mister President, the President 721 00:57:03,559 --> 00:57:07,400 Roosebel died this afternoon. You need to come with me 722 00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:16,960 to the White House. Truman excuses himself from the gala evening, 723 00:57:17,159 --> 00:57:20,400 gets into the guy's car. They go to the White House. 724 00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:23,480 They go down to the basement and they tell him 725 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,599 about the atom bomb. He had not been cleared for 726 00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:34,199 what happened in New Mexico, and that he would have 727 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,800 to make the decision whether to use the atom bomb 728 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,639 against Japan or not. Now can you imagine something like that? 729 00:57:42,679 --> 00:57:50,119 I mean is essentially an average businessman from Kansas, very bright, 730 00:57:50,960 --> 00:58:00,360 extremely honest, extremely wholesome in his life. He was vice 731 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:05,199 president because he could bring in votes for Roosevelt. Roosevelt 732 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,800 was in poor health and was hiding it that he died. Suddenly, 733 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,519 all of a sudden, you were in the basement of 734 00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:17,519 the White House and you're told the secret. The budget 735 00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:24,599 for the for Trinity was the largest project in their 736 00:58:24,679 --> 00:58:29,159 history of man, the largest amount of money. The money 737 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:34,480 was hidden in three different ways through contracts with different 738 00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:38,800 companies that had nothing to do with the Atombau. And 739 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,159 one of them was a land development project for the 740 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:51,840 army where they put Oakridge the reactors were supposed to be. 741 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,440 It was supposed to be a gravel pit. The army 742 00:58:56,519 --> 00:59:02,719 needs gravel to build roads and no airports soon. Of course, 743 00:59:02,719 --> 00:59:06,039 the Army was the air Force at the time. There 744 00:59:06,079 --> 00:59:09,960 was no air Force. The Army who was building the airports. 745 00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:12,800 So you need a lot of gravel and that's so 746 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,800 there's gravel there. So they they got all the farmers 747 00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,320 out of the area within one hundred miles and this 748 00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:24,199 was hidden between two hills and they built the cotch. 749 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:33,199 The budget was a budget for getting gravel to the army. 750 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:41,719 There were two other hidden budgets and and the you 751 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,719 know that senators were not aware of it. Congress was 752 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,000 not aware of it, and the Vice President of the 753 00:59:48,119 --> 00:59:55,360 United States had not been briefed. So people need to 754 00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,519 understand that there are secrets at that level that led intimately. 755 01:00:00,679 --> 01:00:02,760 That's why, you know, I don't want to go too 756 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:07,880 much about the best project and all that, because I'm 757 01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:11,320 there are some things I know, some things I've participated in. 758 01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:16,639 I have my own conclusions about UFOs, but you know, 759 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:21,800 I'm going to work within the structure. I respect the structure. 760 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,320 I just think that mistakes are being made because it's 761 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:30,079 not one secret. You know, there are people around saying, well, 762 01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:34,360 you know, my classification is such that I have access 763 01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:38,119 to certain things people don't know. Well, you know, it's 764 01:00:38,159 --> 01:00:42,079 good for you. What about the other six things? You know, 765 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:48,480 because it's going to involve religion, it's going to involve 766 01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:53,960 our relationship with certain countries that we need to talk 767 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,760 to if we want to solve this, because their files 768 01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,960 are at least that's good, if not better than our. 769 01:01:01,159 --> 01:01:05,719 I think there are indications that the Russians have progressed 770 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:11,519 in terms of understanding the problem, have progressed much further 771 01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:16,639 than we have at the government. Okay, those are indications 772 01:01:16,639 --> 01:01:24,119 from reading their literature, not their political stuff, reading the 773 01:01:24,159 --> 01:01:34,079 sum islat. So those are powerful, important, dangerous things, and 774 01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:36,679 they are getting more and more dangerous from more we 775 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:38,360 keep them locked up. 776 01:01:38,679 --> 01:01:41,199 Speaker 1: So I became, you know, kind of new to the 777 01:01:41,239 --> 01:01:44,880 whole UFO topic that I actually became interested in it 778 01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:47,920 when I saw Close Encounters of the Third kind. I 779 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,159 think I was probably eight or nine years old, and 780 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,039 I would love to know how you got involved with 781 01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:57,760 the movie and what your thoughts are on being portrayed 782 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,920 in the movie by actor and saw true far probably 783 01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,519 butchering the French there. 784 01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:10,400 Speaker 2: But you know, Steven Spielberg was was very young at 785 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:17,559 the time, so was I. We I met him who 786 01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:24,880 a Hollywood journalist, the woman who had followed the development 787 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:29,159 of the movie in Hollywood, and and she invited both 788 01:02:29,199 --> 01:02:32,039 of us for lunch. So it was a very informal 789 01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:35,199 thing and it was it was actually a lot of fun. 790 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:43,159 And Spielberg said that, uh, you know, initially that that 791 01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,960 character was based I think on a cloak poor air 792 01:02:47,599 --> 01:02:52,320 in France who had been very close to doctor Heinek 793 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:58,079 and and so and uh. Then as as the script, 794 01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:02,280 the script wasn't finished. There were big holes in the 795 01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,480 script which were you know, a problem for Spielberg, and 796 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,480 he said he just came from JPL, and he said, 797 01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:14,840 they're all walking around with lots of gadgets and and 798 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,920 it was all very confusing, and he didn't get a 799 01:03:18,079 --> 01:03:23,000 clear idea for the movie from being at the Jet 800 01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:27,159 Propelsion Lab. So he was still looking for for things. 801 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:32,679 And the character evolved and became someone who where he 802 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:37,400 was in the United States working with the team, and 803 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,719 and that's when when he said the new character was 804 01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,440 based on me. So it's it's probably a mixture of 805 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,519 Claude Pohre, who is still a good friend of mine 806 01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:56,480 and myself. So we we had an enjoyable couple of lunches, actually, 807 01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:01,960 and he said that one of the and I gave 808 01:04:02,039 --> 01:04:06,840 him some some of the actual incidents that I had researched. 809 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,559 And there is one where the witness saw a UFO 810 01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:15,760 at a crossroad and there was a panel, a road 811 01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:21,239 panel there that started vibrating when the object was above. 812 01:04:21,719 --> 01:04:23,920 And that's one of the scenes that made it into 813 01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:27,880 into the movie, showing the physical effect of the force 814 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:34,639 from from whatever is coming. And then one of the 815 01:04:34,679 --> 01:04:38,280 big hole in the movie he told us at lunch, 816 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:44,760 was that how to discover the place where it's actually 817 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,360 going to happen, because they want to meet, of course, 818 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:54,599 to meet the craft. And I said, well, you know, 819 01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:57,800 maybe a simple thing would be to have people with 820 01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:04,079 theodolites and the little telescopes that would point to the 821 01:05:04,119 --> 01:05:08,239 place where the signal comes from and then you triangulate 822 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,679 and and he said, yeah, that would work, but there 823 01:05:11,679 --> 01:05:15,239 are two problems with your idea. Number one, it's too 824 01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,679 long to explain, and number two, it's not funny. So 825 01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:29,039 then then I felt about something that photograph that was 826 01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:35,000 on the desk of doctor Heinek at Northwestern University, and 827 01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:40,599 that photograph showed a big globe, you know, scree meter diameter, 828 01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:46,480 and three people, including one who was Heinek, climbing on 829 01:05:46,599 --> 01:05:50,679 top of the globe on a ladder with a piece 830 01:05:50,719 --> 01:05:53,760 of string and the others were trying to fit the 831 01:05:54,800 --> 01:06:00,199 string across the globe. And I asked alan An. I 832 01:06:00,239 --> 01:06:05,079 told that story to Spielbert and I had asked doctor Heinek, 833 01:06:05,199 --> 01:06:09,639 you know what's what happened there? And he said he laughed, 834 01:06:10,159 --> 01:06:13,840 and he said, you know, the night of Sputnik one, 835 01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:20,599 October nineteen fifty seven, nobody expected this to happen. The 836 01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:26,039 New York Times calls the director of Harvard Observatory at 837 01:06:26,079 --> 01:06:30,000 three o'clock in the morning, wakes him up and says, 838 01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,920 can we have a comment about the Russian satellite? He said, 839 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,119 what Russian satellite? There? There isn't a Russian satellite. They said, oh, yes, 840 01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:44,400 there is, and they gave him the whole story. So 841 01:06:44,519 --> 01:06:48,320 he gets dressed. He calls Heinek, he calls another astronomer 842 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:55,639 and they meet indoorn Abby at Harvard where there's this 843 01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:00,719 big globe and they try to fit a strain. They 844 01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:05,000 don't have a computer program that can compute the satellite orbit. 845 01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,079 They think they have another couple of years to do that, 846 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,039 and of course it's going to be an American satellite. 847 01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:15,199 Well it isn't an can satellite. It's a Russian satellite, 848 01:07:15,559 --> 01:07:18,360 and they have no way of computing the orbit. So 849 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:24,960 that that photograph is very funny, and Spielberg says, you know, 850 01:07:25,199 --> 01:07:29,000 that's it. They say that. The general who is in 851 01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:39,639 charge of the whole expedition says the translator for the 852 01:07:40,119 --> 01:07:44,960 French guy says, you know, I used to be a geographer. 853 01:07:45,079 --> 01:07:48,800 In these numbers that they are sending us that looks 854 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:53,199 like coordinates longitude and latitude, and the general says, well, 855 01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:56,519 you know where is it? And nobody has a map, 856 01:07:56,679 --> 01:07:59,719 and it seems to be in Wyoming and they break 857 01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:04,320 in to the museum next door. They okay, there happens 858 01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,599 to be a museum next door, and they steal the 859 01:08:08,719 --> 01:08:12,920 big globe and they bring the globe overhead, you know, 860 01:08:13,159 --> 01:08:17,920 all the way and they find, you know, the the 861 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,439 place in Wyoming with the big rock tower, and that's 862 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,760 far the thing is going to be. So that scene 863 01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,520 I never I was never paid as a consultant for that, 864 01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,199 but that scene came from from our meeting and that 865 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,319 was That was great. That was just a lot of fun. 866 01:08:36,039 --> 01:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I know that there. I know that Steven Spielberg is 867 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,319 working on another UFO movie that I'm not sure when 868 01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:44,560 it comes out. So so I have to ask, are 869 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,760 you involved with that project at all? 870 01:08:47,239 --> 01:08:52,079 Speaker 2: I am not. I am not. I think we're maybe 871 01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:56,560 doctor Nolan is you know that's our next the next generation, 872 01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:01,560 UH is going to be I'm going to be put 873 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:02,000 to work. 874 01:09:02,079 --> 01:09:04,119 Speaker 1: Well, Jacques, thank you very much for joining us. It 875 01:09:04,159 --> 01:09:06,880 was a pleasure having you on and UH look forward 876 01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:07,720 to meeting you in person. 877 01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,199 Speaker 2: Thank you. So it's been great pleasure. 878 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, all right, Jacques Beallet, Ladies and gentlemen,