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<v Speaker 1>Coming to you from the dining room table at East

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<v Speaker 1>Barbary Lane. Welcome to another episode of Full Circle the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr. And today I

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<v Speaker 1>am delighted to be sitting with our guest, Tony Keith Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>Tony is a wonderful poet, spoken word artist, hip hop

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<v Speaker 1>educational leader from Washington, d C. So you know we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to have an interesting conversation today. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about Tony's collection of poems called Knucklehead, and

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<v Speaker 1>I would really love to get into this. Tony Keith Junior,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Full Circle Table.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Thank you so much, y'all.

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<v Speaker 1>Glad to be here, Glad to have you here. First

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<v Speaker 1>of all, I love I love your writing style.

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<v Speaker 2>I do.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I can hear I couldn't hear your voice because

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<v Speaker 1>I ain't at you yet, but I could definitely hear

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<v Speaker 1>the warmth of the author's voice in the poems.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so curious, did you find yourself speaking some of

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<v Speaker 2>the poems.

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<v Speaker 1>Out loud a little bit, or if not speaking like

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<v Speaker 1>kind of moving with it?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, you were moving with it. Okay. I love getting

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<v Speaker 2>this reaction because even my mom called me yesterday. She's

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<v Speaker 2>a son. You know, I'm reading through your book and

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<v Speaker 2>I just came across one of my favorite poems that

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard you, you know, perform in public. And she goes,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what you say, and she goes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was saying it out loud. I had to keep

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<v Speaker 2>myself quiet because she was like in an office environment

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<v Speaker 2>or something. And so just the fact that the collection

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of evoking these like reactions from people to

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<v Speaker 2>either say them out loud or to move their body

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<v Speaker 2>to me like that just brings me a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>joy because there's a hip hop connection there.

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<v Speaker 1>So oh, okay, which makes complete sense.

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<v Speaker 2>If it ain't if it ain't something, ain'tap your foot,

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<v Speaker 2>ain't tapping your head, not bobbing, it's not hippie.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that's right, So talk to me a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, the title knucklehead, Where does that come from?

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<v Speaker 2>Title knucklehead comes from? I believe two places. One is

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<v Speaker 2>just I really am just sort of attached to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of really cool book titles, and I thought knucklehead just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of sounds great, But then also realized that subconsciously

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<v Speaker 2>that was just sort of me advancing language that I

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<v Speaker 2>had heard since I was a little kid. I was

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<v Speaker 2>always known as a little knucklehead. Which the way that

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<v Speaker 2>I understood that, I mean, it was a couple of ways.

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<v Speaker 2>In my community. It meant a very It was like

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<v Speaker 2>a term of endearment. It was affectionate, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>joyful thing, like your a little knucklehead. Yeah, you might

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<v Speaker 2>have a little bit of an attitude problem, but you are sweet.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you're unlovable as opposed to the traditional you

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<v Speaker 2>know narrative that you know knuckleheads or black boys, even

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<v Speaker 2>girls who are like misunderstood or unheard, or they're stereotyped

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<v Speaker 2>or they're judge. I was like, we gotta have another

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<v Speaker 2>way of thinking of us, and then knucklehead actually write

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I say something about you know, their knucklehead.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't all call ourselves we know that we're not blasphemous, ignorant,

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<v Speaker 2>or dangerous, although we don't call ourselves intelligent, ambitious, or courageous. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of this idea, like I wanted us knuckleheads

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<v Speaker 2>to just think about ourselves in loving ways.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that it definitely comes as a term of endearment. Yeah, No,

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<v Speaker 1>like came here a little knucklehead, let me tell you

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<v Speaker 1>about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, And again I thank you for that,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think that what I'm realizing is I'm feeling

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more affirmed lately because I was so concerned

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<v Speaker 2>that the term knucklehead might be completely misinterpreted. And so

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of readers, and you can just people in general,

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<v Speaker 2>especially black and brown folks, are like, I know what

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<v Speaker 2>a knucklehead is. I'm gonna get this book to a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of knuckleheads that I know, and I'm like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>this language makes sense. These are the communities that I

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<v Speaker 2>care about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, this is what I wanted right right, right, So

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to me like you talk to different kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of knuckleheads in these poems, like talk to me about

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<v Speaker 1>that a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when I started, well, I mean, there's so much

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<v Speaker 2>more to the story. But the first nucklehead that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>writing to is myself, And so the world just probably

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<v Speaker 2>needs to know that Knucklehead is a collection of poems

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<v Speaker 2>where most of them are poems that I've been writing

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<v Speaker 2>to myself over the last thirty years, right, and just

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with my world as a black gay man in

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<v Speaker 2>America and in my very first book, How the Boogeyman

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<v Speaker 2>Became a Poet, I sort of tell this story about

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<v Speaker 2>how I discovered writing poetry as a way to just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of protect and preserve myself and my sanity touring

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<v Speaker 2>times of stress and anger and confusion, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and I still practice that. And so the poems in

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<v Speaker 2>that book are essentially poems that I was writing to myself,

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<v Speaker 2>just dealing with my world, but also reflecting on the

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<v Speaker 2>different contexts in which I've seen black masculinity show up.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I write about jails and prisons. I write

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<v Speaker 2>about playgrounds. I write about what it's like to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of play sports. I write about what it's like to

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<v Speaker 2>fall in love. I write about education, I write about

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<v Speaker 2>police brutality, but all these different sort of places in

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<v Speaker 2>which I've experienced myself in my world as a black

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<v Speaker 2>gay man in America. And then add the additional layer

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm also gay, right, So like there's this an

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<v Speaker 2>additional thing to it, and so that collection is me

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<v Speaker 2>really just kind of how I wrestle with it. And

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<v Speaker 2>then the very last part is just their you know poems,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, about being in pursuit of your passion, you

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<v Speaker 2>know about you know, I talked in the book, I

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<v Speaker 2>use this metaphor of the very first letter is, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Darren Knucklehead, you know, have you ever had a planet

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<v Speaker 2>lodged in your belly? And for me, the planet represents purpose, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so part of it is just sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>that book is also like have you ever just felt like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the world is misunderstanding you, but you know

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<v Speaker 2>you got a purpose and you might be gay? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>It's sort of like what it was like those things.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what I was aiming for with this collection,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think I probably answered way too many questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean things in that answer, but anyway, there.

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<v Speaker 1>Is no such thing as too many. I want it all. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you, Yeah, I love I love your use of language.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, I felt like this was coming from

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<v Speaker 1>someone I knew, you know, because you know, hopefully when

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<v Speaker 1>we are young, coming up, gay people, gay black people,

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully we have a few figures in our life that

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<v Speaker 1>are there to like help bring us up and show

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<v Speaker 1>us the way. And and your voice called to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I really appreciate that, because Charles, something that I

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<v Speaker 2>think so much about is if only I had a

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<v Speaker 2>book like this when I was a kid, Oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>how seen? You know, I would have like felt and

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<v Speaker 2>although I was reading this is what's interesting is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was reading Lens and Hughes as a kid, but

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<v Speaker 2>nobody was talking to me about Lens and Hughes and

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<v Speaker 2>his sexuality or his masculine like I was. No one

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<v Speaker 2>was saying to me that, Tony, you're reading the works

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<v Speaker 2>of queer writers gay like I didn't know then, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And then of course, you know, I grew up in

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<v Speaker 2>the era where I was reading, at least in college

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<v Speaker 2>literary works by Elan Harris, you know, and so right,

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<v Speaker 2>so I remember, like literature got me through you. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm thinking about like I remember sort of discovering

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<v Speaker 2>black gay court authors, I guess sort of in my twenties,

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<v Speaker 2>but like what about my like teens in middle school years?

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<v Speaker 2>Like where were they? And all I keep thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>is like right now, in this moment, I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 2>really want these young black boys, whether they're queer, gay

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<v Speaker 2>or not, are questioning or whoever, to like to know

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<v Speaker 2>that they exist, like right now, like here's a book

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<v Speaker 2>for young adults, Like here's something written for you specifically

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<v Speaker 2>for you. Yeah, I really, yeah, I really wanted that.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, this is the book that I needed.

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<v Speaker 2>The poems that would have been like, oh, this makes.

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<v Speaker 1>Sense, right, yeah, because you know, there's so many stereotypes

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<v Speaker 1>that are put on us as when we're young, when

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<v Speaker 1>we're black, when we're queer, not to mention putting all

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<v Speaker 1>that together, and you know we also grow up with

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<v Speaker 1>again hopefully our family telling us you can do and

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<v Speaker 1>be whatever you want to be if you put your

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<v Speaker 1>mind to it. But at the same time, the world

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<v Speaker 1>is telling you the opposite, yes, if you make it, Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, this is the thing. I love that you said that,

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<v Speaker 2>because this is what I continue to get more clarity about.

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<v Speaker 2>I go to poetry for clarity. You know, someone said

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<v Speaker 2>the other day Tony, a lot of your poems about

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<v Speaker 2>you know, being between things, like you know, between this

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<v Speaker 2>thing and that thing, darkness and light and sadness and

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<v Speaker 2>joy and all this other kind of stuff. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think so much about like how for me, like poetry

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<v Speaker 2>is trying to kind of feel that space in between.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, yo, I'm hearing all of these narratives

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<v Speaker 2>in the mainstream world that I am not lovable, right,

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<v Speaker 2>legislation is thank you and I'm not lovable. Policy is

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<v Speaker 2>saying I'm not lovable. There's certain you know, I'm just

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<v Speaker 2>like that. There's narratives that exist within religious places that

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<v Speaker 2>say that I'm not lovable. And then there are the

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<v Speaker 2>people in the world who I don't know, who do

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<v Speaker 2>love me, who are like, nah, you are lovable, you

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<v Speaker 2>are a wonderful person, you do have a person. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm thinking about, like, how do we filter out

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<v Speaker 2>that noise? Like how do we completely turn off the

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<v Speaker 2>mess that we've been hearing? And so I think so

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<v Speaker 2>much about like I'll be forty four years old this year,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, I've got forty four years old noise

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm still filtering through. And I'm like, oh, if

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<v Speaker 2>I can create better noise for a kid who's fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>right now or thirteen, or maybe the questioning adult whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>But I think like now is the time to insert

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<v Speaker 2>more positive affirmations, like now's the time. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate what you to say, because I'm like, yeah, we

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<v Speaker 2>keep hearing all this stuff about us that we're unlovable,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet we know that we really are because people.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us exactly it's like, And how do we find

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<v Speaker 1>joy and optimism when essentially the world is basically saying,

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<v Speaker 1>why are you still here?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yes, and you probably see I wrestle with that

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<v Speaker 2>even and knucklehead, because you know, in this book also

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<v Speaker 2>write about poem, I mean their poem. There's a poem

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<v Speaker 2>in there that I wrote when I was fifteen years

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<v Speaker 2>old that I slightly edited a little bit. And then

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<v Speaker 2>there are poems that I wrote, like when I was forty, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and being married to my husband and writing about love

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<v Speaker 2>and conflict and you know, all this stuff because I

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<v Speaker 2>just think there's I was going somewhere with some point.

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<v Speaker 2>What was it? I get so lost in my thoughts.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh got it? Yeah. But the idea that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when we are absorbing this as gay queer men, we

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<v Speaker 2>are absorbing these negative narratives, and then we meet love.

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<v Speaker 2>We fall in love, romantic love, and you're in romantic

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<v Speaker 2>love with someone who's also been hearing the same mess

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<v Speaker 2>right that they're unlovable, and then the two of you

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<v Speaker 2>get together and y'all trying to figure out what love like,

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<v Speaker 2>what really loving each other looks like when the world

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<v Speaker 2>was telling you that you can't right, so like even

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out what love looks like between two

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<v Speaker 2>gay married men is something that I also wrestled within

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<v Speaker 2>this book because I'm like, I want I didn't. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I didn't have any books like this. I

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<v Speaker 2>had no All I had was my imagination, and honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't until Robert Jones Junior wrote the Prophets. It's

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<v Speaker 2>an incredible novel. If people don't know essentially it's it's fiction,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, but it's about essentially gay enslaved men. And

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<v Speaker 2>I thought to myself, like, what a wonderful story to

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<v Speaker 2>tell because we only can rely on our imagination because

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<v Speaker 2>there were no documented stories of this at least that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, written like what that experience was like, but

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<v Speaker 2>of course that were gay and queer enslaved Africa, like

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<v Speaker 2>of course. And so for me when I write, when

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<v Speaker 2>I'm writing my books, I'm like, if anything, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to awaken the imagination of the questioning of the little

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<v Speaker 2>black boys who might be like, yah, I wonder what

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<v Speaker 2>it's like to be in love with another man. I

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<v Speaker 2>wonder what it's like to get married. I wonder just

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<v Speaker 2>so they can wonder, you know, mm hmmmm hmm.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's fascinating because yeah, there's examples of drag and

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<v Speaker 1>elements of ball culture in enslaved times. So yeah, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>they try to act like, you know, this shit just

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<v Speaker 1>came out fifteen years.

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<v Speaker 2>Ago, yes, but now we have literally been around forever.

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<v Speaker 1>Since, been since been, yeah, forever.

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<v Speaker 2>And actually, you know, relatedly, I even write about in

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<v Speaker 2>my first book, how the Boogeyman Become a poet I

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<v Speaker 2>reflect on.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that title, by the way.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh thanks, Oh I could even probably talk about that

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<v Speaker 2>too if there's time. But because, yeah, because how the

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<v Speaker 2>Boogeyman Became a poet. So, first of all, to listeners

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<v Speaker 2>and readers, it is a young adult memoir and it's

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<v Speaker 2>all written in verse, so every page is sort of

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<v Speaker 2>structured like poems and formatted with stanzas and a literation

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<v Speaker 2>and rhyme and fun stuff. Anyway, but it's about three things.

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<v Speaker 2>It's how did I become the first person in my

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<v Speaker 2>family to go to college, how did I start coming

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<v Speaker 2>out the closet is gay? And how I discovered poetry

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<v Speaker 2>sort of is this thing that I continue doing well

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<v Speaker 2>into my adulthood, right, And so inside this book, it's

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<v Speaker 2>really cool because there are hand copies of I mean

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<v Speaker 2>copies of the actual handwritten poems I wrote as a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>I kept them, and so some of them are in

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<v Speaker 2>that book. But anyway, but I tell this story about

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<v Speaker 2>how I remember growing up as a kid in the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, late eighties and early nineties, hearing about an uncle.

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<v Speaker 2>I have an uncle. He passed away. In the book,

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<v Speaker 2>I call him ut he passed away in the early nineties.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just remember, I say in the book, how

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<v Speaker 2>I remember him being, you know, soft, I just remember

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<v Speaker 2>him being a little soft, a little just a little

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, light on his feet. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how to describe it other than that. And then little sweet,

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<v Speaker 2>a little sweet. And then you know, he dies of

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<v Speaker 2>complications of AIDS and like the mid nineties, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is it probably is, you know, at the time, well

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<v Speaker 2>the height of the narrative and the epidemic that this

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<v Speaker 2>is a gay disease. And I'm processing his death in

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting way because I'm like, well, I don't understand

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<v Speaker 2>how he got this thing, because he wasn't gay. He's

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<v Speaker 2>got a son, you know, and I know that he

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<v Speaker 2>had a girlfriend. It's like, I know, look, there was

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<v Speaker 2>sort of this confusing anyway, So my point is later

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<v Speaker 2>on many many years, many many many years later, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the family begins to start discussing, and then later comes

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<v Speaker 2>out them uncle was indeed gay, or at least by

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<v Speaker 2>but certainly he was not straight. And I have a

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<v Speaker 2>there's a picture that I reflect on in the book

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<v Speaker 2>where it's in my grandmother's photo album, and it's a

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<v Speaker 2>picture of my uncle and he's literally kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>hugged up with like another man in this picture. And

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<v Speaker 2>I remember as a kid asking my family, I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>who is that man? And all they would say, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is gay queer people. Oh, that's your uncle's friend.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm doing hair quotes for people, that's your uncle's friend,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know what I mean. So I think so

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<v Speaker 2>much about, like how even the concept all we had

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<v Speaker 2>in our imagination was a friend, you know. And I'm like, nah,

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<v Speaker 2>we need something more concrete for people nowadays. But I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>that way, we don't. I'm not hiding, you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not my uncle, you know, But I'm like, oh, what

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<v Speaker 2>story he probably could have told me about what was

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<v Speaker 2>going on with me because I was so confused. Nobody

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<v Speaker 2>I knew was openly gay, Nobody in the nineties that

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<v Speaker 2>I knew was openly nobody.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean we hadn't met yet.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Literally, I knew at least that was at

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<v Speaker 2>least my age that was like a teenager.

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<v Speaker 1>Or yeah, because you said you're forty four. Yeah, yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so I got just five years on you.

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<v Speaker 2>But oh right now, hey look but.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like that's when I came out the nineties. Oh wowee,

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<v Speaker 1>so I was.

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<v Speaker 2>While you were in college. Yeah, I had the same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I waited until college. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And you know, there is that whole we're in

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<v Speaker 1>the height of. You know, AIDS is a very prevalent topic,

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<v Speaker 1>and it permeates everything you know, you have to It's

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<v Speaker 1>there when you're going out, it's there when you're meeting someone,

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<v Speaker 1>it's there when you you know what I'm saying. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's why I was grateful to have older people that

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<v Speaker 1>had been around that could tell me stories. Yes, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, think about yeah, so many people with so

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<v Speaker 1>many stories that never really got told because we the

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<v Speaker 1>people around them, didn't have the wherewithal or the courage

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<v Speaker 1>or the knowledge that they could have questions answered.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Something that I've been really I've been

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<v Speaker 2>reflecting on a lot lately, is I get invited to

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<v Speaker 2>do a lot of like youth book events and author

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<v Speaker 2>talks and really cool places. And I was just at

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<v Speaker 2>the North Texas Teen Book Conference and it's thirteen or

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<v Speaker 2>twelve thousand young people all from the state of Texas. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a wild was wild. And what I started

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<v Speaker 2>noticing was that even a lot of most like a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the white students is I'm going to say

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<v Speaker 2>this for a very particular reason, would come up to

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<v Speaker 2>me and show so much love, and I'd be confused

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<v Speaker 2>by sort of their reactions, right because and my point

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<v Speaker 2>is read I'm saying this is what I realized is

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so openly gay and free with who I am

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<v Speaker 2>that white kids come to me and tell me they're gay,

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<v Speaker 2>like they're coming out to this white kids and then

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<v Speaker 2>black kids too. I mean that's also it's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like there's this reaction from people and I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 2>sort this out. In what I realized is like, oh

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<v Speaker 2>my gosh, none of these kids have ever met and

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<v Speaker 2>openly gave black man before, you know what I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>they've let alone a poet, alone an author, you know

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<v Speaker 2>what I mean. Like they've never and so they come

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<v Speaker 2>up to me with sort of this like, wonder this

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<v Speaker 2>not fascination because I don't think it's like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the book, I write about romanticized voyeurism, like when

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<v Speaker 2>white people look at me, that's racial microaggressions. What we

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<v Speaker 2>could talk about later. But I think there's something we

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<v Speaker 2>said about, like you've just shown me something about yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And I even think about. Last thing I'll

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<v Speaker 2>say is because these thoughts will connect is last year,

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<v Speaker 2>my husband and I we had a kid, a little

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<v Speaker 2>black boy come to stay with us from the Child

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<v Speaker 2>Family Services, right who's placed with us? He needed to be.

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<v Speaker 2>That's I don't know. I can't get in too much

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<v Speaker 2>of the details, but we are sincely a kid from

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<v Speaker 2>foster care, six years old, and it's crystal clear that

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<v Speaker 2>he had never he didn't underst and that two black

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<v Speaker 2>gay men were sort of taking care of him. And

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<v Speaker 2>so the short story is one evening he goes, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>mister Tony, you know, where do you live? And I said,

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<v Speaker 2>do I live in this house?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>And he goes, oh, where do you sleep? And I say, why,

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<v Speaker 2>I sleep in the room with mister Harry. He goes, huh.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, well, yeah, He says why do you do that?

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, well, we're married. He goes, you're married.

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<v Speaker 2>You married to him? That's not right, and he's six,

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<v Speaker 2>and I said, yes it is. He says, oh okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and had no questions about that other than the next

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<v Speaker 2>day he said, mister Tony, you kissed mister Harry before

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<v Speaker 2>and I said yeah. He goes, oh okay. But you

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<v Speaker 2>saw the way his little mind was sort of figuring

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<v Speaker 2>something out. And I think so much about these kids

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<v Speaker 2>who I'm meeting at these conferences again, who they've just

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<v Speaker 2>said have never seen or understood a different narrative, so,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and so I don't know. I sort of

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<v Speaker 2>see myself in my book doing those kinds of things.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like awakening a little bit of a possibility in someone,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, and that is so necessary. It's always been necessary

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<v Speaker 1>to have examples of you know, different lives, different occupations,

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<v Speaker 1>different ways of being, especially now, like thank goodness you

385
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<v Speaker 1>are in the literary field because you know, yes, providing

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<v Speaker 1>anything in the written word is so vital now, Yes,

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00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.319
<v Speaker 1>and kids don't know what they don't know because so

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<v Speaker 1>much is being taken from them and hidden from them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, and you know what relatedly too, is and

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<v Speaker 2>I write about this in Knucklehead, is you know, my

391
00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.880
<v Speaker 2>enslaved African ancestors weren't given access to the rich and

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<v Speaker 2>word when you know, they needed this spoken word, Like

393
00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>that was literally how they figured out how to communicate

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<v Speaker 2>with each other across languages on a slave, you know,

395
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<v Speaker 2>like that's how they figured out how to decipher American

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00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Standard English. They needed the oral tradition. And so what

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<v Speaker 2>I want to offer to you know listeners also is

398
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.640
<v Speaker 2>that yo, I self narrated both audiobooks, the audiobook for

399
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.640
<v Speaker 2>How the Boogeyman Became a Poet and Knucklehead, so you

400
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.640
<v Speaker 2>can also listen to this book so you get it

401
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.559
<v Speaker 2>in the traditional oral tradition style because I speak it

402
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:13.279
<v Speaker 2>exactly how I speak. So for those of you who

403
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.960
<v Speaker 2>are interested in what my performances are, like, listen to

404
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.559
<v Speaker 2>these audio books and I just do a quick little

405
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>flex is How the Boogeyman Became a Poet recently won

406
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<v Speaker 2>an Odyssey Award from the American Library Association, which essentially

407
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<v Speaker 2>means I have one of the top audiobooks for young

408
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:31.680
<v Speaker 2>adults in the country right now. And so these audiobooks

409
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.359
<v Speaker 2>get busy, so you know. So we've got the written

410
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.359
<v Speaker 2>and the spoken. So yeah, you're right. I'm like for me,

411
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, now it's preserved. Now this is preserved. It's

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00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.160
<v Speaker 2>curated in the memory of the world. At this point,

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00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.400
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing no one can do. It's it's written and

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00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:46.559
<v Speaker 2>it's spoken. Done.

415
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:54.640
<v Speaker 1>Come on, grio. Okay, Well, since we're in that vein,

416
00:20:54.680 --> 00:21:00.000
<v Speaker 1>would you be so kind as to read a book

417
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.319
<v Speaker 1>of what is one of my favorite poems and poetry,

418
00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:05.440
<v Speaker 1>Coming to the Rescue.

419
00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.759
<v Speaker 2>I love poetry Coming to the Rescue.

420
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:13.079
<v Speaker 1>It spoke to me, as you know, for a couple

421
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:18.200
<v Speaker 1>decades and some change, I was a professional performer, choreographer

422
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:24.200
<v Speaker 1>and you know, essentially Hasla and this poem spoke to

423
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:25.119
<v Speaker 1>the soul of that.

424
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, oh thank you. This is one of my

425
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.200
<v Speaker 2>favorite poems. And the listeners should know that typically when

426
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I do have like a spoken or poetry feature, I

427
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.079
<v Speaker 2>usually open with this. It's usually like my opening poem.

428
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.359
<v Speaker 2>I wrote this though in two thousand and five or

429
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:42.319
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and six, And listeners should also know that

430
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>in this book are also illustrations. The illustrations were created

431
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:49.559
<v Speaker 2>by an artist, Julian Aiden Alexander, who read the book

432
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.119
<v Speaker 2>and created his illustrations on his own. So there's a

433
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.319
<v Speaker 2>picture in this book of a little poet superhero with

434
00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:57.039
<v Speaker 2>a cape.

435
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:58.480
<v Speaker 1>You got that love?

436
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.519
<v Speaker 2>I read some It says poetry comeing to the rescue.

437
00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.960
<v Speaker 2>You can save someone from drowning. And my daddy, who

438
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.039
<v Speaker 2>is a minister, says, son, if your sermon is good,

439
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.400
<v Speaker 2>you can save someone's soul. Well, I've never really been

440
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.799
<v Speaker 2>the kind of person to ask for help, but if

441
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.720
<v Speaker 2>I needed some saving, trust me, you would know. But

442
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be sending out an SOS message or interrupting

443
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.119
<v Speaker 2>your regularly scheduled programs. I wouldn't be sending it in

444
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:29.720
<v Speaker 2>an email, a text, a DM, or posting anything on Facebook, TikTok,

445
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Snapchat or Instagram. Instead, you'd find me on the stage,

446
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.039
<v Speaker 2>usually with a piece of paper in my left and

447
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.759
<v Speaker 2>a pin in my right. My mouth would be wide

448
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.559
<v Speaker 2>open and a vein poking out of my neck. My

449
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>eyes would be shut tight as I focus on every

450
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.640
<v Speaker 2>single breath, just to make sure that my lungs have

451
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.519
<v Speaker 2>enough capacity to create words that defy the laws of

452
00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.279
<v Speaker 2>gravity and that swirl up into a vortex of knowledge,

453
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:02.480
<v Speaker 2>causing supernatural catastrophes. And why my poem ain't no tragedy there.

454
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>This might be some casualties. If you're not prepared to

455
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.519
<v Speaker 2>battle me. You want me to keep going, oh I,

456
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.119
<v Speaker 2>But if you're feeling froggy, then jump. Because my poems

457
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.480
<v Speaker 2>are not for tricks, and they certainly aren't for chumps.

458
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.200
<v Speaker 2>I do this for a reason. I write this for

459
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.119
<v Speaker 2>those of you with terminal diseases. I write this for

460
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:20.839
<v Speaker 2>those of you who want to have sex, but your

461
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.319
<v Speaker 2>parents are preachers. I write this for those of you

462
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:25.480
<v Speaker 2>who want to learn, but you lack of loving mentors

463
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.039
<v Speaker 2>and teachers. I write this for those of you who

464
00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.240
<v Speaker 2>love your mama, but all she does is scream at you.

465
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:33.119
<v Speaker 2>I write this for those of you who love your daddy,

466
00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 2>although his eyes have never seen you. I write this

467
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:38.400
<v Speaker 2>for those of you who miss getting a good night's sleep.

468
00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:40.359
<v Speaker 2>I have to hear in your grandma sing the sweet

469
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.680
<v Speaker 2>song to you. I write this for those of you

470
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.599
<v Speaker 2>with negative energy and so like a magnet, bullshit just

471
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.160
<v Speaker 2>clings to you. I write this for you. I write

472
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.400
<v Speaker 2>this for those of you whose sexuality is unacceptable until

473
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.079
<v Speaker 2>it's received some societal stamp of approval. I write this

474
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.960
<v Speaker 2>for those of you who work so hard to create change.

475
00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.680
<v Speaker 2>You get frustrated, but you still may. I write this

476
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>for those of you who don't have answers, yet one

477
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.240
<v Speaker 2>is always being forced from you. I've learned that sometimes

478
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:10.000
<v Speaker 2>saying I don't know is a lie, and that's sometimes

479
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.599
<v Speaker 2>saying I don't know is the truth. I write this

480
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.559
<v Speaker 2>for those of you who want to earn love but

481
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know that it's already been given to you. I

482
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.400
<v Speaker 2>write this for you've been battling poetry into my ink

483
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.319
<v Speaker 2>bleeds black and blue. I'm just a superhero with a

484
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.039
<v Speaker 2>cape made of metaphors, trying to use my words to

485
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.200
<v Speaker 2>simply save you. And yes, some of the words and

486
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.240
<v Speaker 2>my poems do rhyme, but I've been doing it for

487
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.680
<v Speaker 2>a while, so it just happened sometimes. And yes, memorizing

488
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.680
<v Speaker 2>a poem would make any performance good. But if I could,

489
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I would pick up this book and read my words,

490
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.920
<v Speaker 2>just to make sure that my messages are never misunderstood.

491
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.680
<v Speaker 2>I do this for a reason, and this gift is

492
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.039
<v Speaker 2>not temporary. It's not changed with the seasons, which means

493
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>I can spit fire while the sky is hot, or

494
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.799
<v Speaker 2>I can cool it down while the water is freezing.

495
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.519
<v Speaker 2>And if words having power isn't something that you believe in.

496
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Then I can spit on my fingertips, reach my poems

497
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and turn these written words on pages into a spoken

498
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 2>altar call, and I can start saving all of you

499
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:09.279
<v Speaker 2>heathens because I care about your futures. I care about

500
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.039
<v Speaker 2>your destinies, I care about your legacies. And I want

501
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.119
<v Speaker 2>y'all to know my name. I want y'all to look

502
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.119
<v Speaker 2>up in the sky and scream out. And if this

503
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:17.839
<v Speaker 2>was an open mic, I say, is that a bird?

504
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:19.480
<v Speaker 2>And they would say, is that a bird? And I say,

505
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:22.599
<v Speaker 2>is that a plane? Is that a plane? And I'll

506
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.400
<v Speaker 2>be flying by shouting No. It is poetry. And I'm

507
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.240
<v Speaker 2>a poet, a social agent of change, piecing letters to words,

508
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 2>and words to sentences, and sentences to sounds. I can

509
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.079
<v Speaker 2>leap over metaphors with a single bound. I am powerful

510
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.119
<v Speaker 2>enough to spark protests for equality, and ghetto communities talk

511
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:45.160
<v Speaker 2>slicker than silly politicians, creating policies that grant rich folks immunities. See,

512
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.359
<v Speaker 2>I didn't choose to be saved by poetry. Poetry chose me.

513
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:51.759
<v Speaker 2>Poetry crept up inside my mama's wounb and poetry started

514
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:54.759
<v Speaker 2>tickling me, I've been speaking in rhythmic pattern since I

515
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.200
<v Speaker 2>was in grade three. I'll just continue till I'm through.

516
00:25:57.519 --> 00:25:59.839
<v Speaker 2>So who am I? Well, I'm just a simple souper

517
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 2>with a kate native metaphors, trying to use my words

518
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:09.200
<v Speaker 2>to save you. Oh yeah, thank you, thank you. Also

519
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:10.960
<v Speaker 2>a quick thing for listeners, y'all should also know I

520
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:12.920
<v Speaker 2>mentioned you know, I've been speaking in rhythm patters since

521
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.200
<v Speaker 2>I was in grade three. And how the Boogeyman became

522
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:17.160
<v Speaker 2>a poet? I write the story about how I wrote

523
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.119
<v Speaker 2>my first poem in third grade and emceeded at a

524
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.599
<v Speaker 2>school event. So since grade three. The two books are

525
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.960
<v Speaker 2>in conversation, the little nuggets that kind of go on both.

526
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.519
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, which answers my question. I was going to ask,

527
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:36.039
<v Speaker 1>how did you approach writing and being a writer since

528
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:36.680
<v Speaker 1>grade three?

529
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Since grade three? And I can and I don't

530
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:40.880
<v Speaker 2>know how much time we have, but I'd be happy

531
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.519
<v Speaker 2>to even sort of way that these books came about.

532
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a I'm trying to make it really really short,

533
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.640
<v Speaker 2>but I'm good, Okay, cool. So what happened was this

534
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>is the truth? Spring twenty nineteen, I get laid off

535
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.680
<v Speaker 2>from my full time You've developed a nonprofit job in Washington, DC,

536
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 2>doing work in DC High scho while also working on

537
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.920
<v Speaker 2>my dissertation. And my husband, who I had just gotten

538
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:07.960
<v Speaker 2>married to a year before, he had just got laid

539
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.039
<v Speaker 2>off from his job too, and this was like We're

540
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.440
<v Speaker 2>living in this tiny, little two bedroom apartment in northeast

541
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:16.240
<v Speaker 2>washingt DC. And the only way that I knew how

542
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>to make money was on the side. I was always

543
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.519
<v Speaker 2>performing poems or featuring someway or getting I was gigging,

544
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.160
<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense, and gigging and also doing some

545
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of consulting I do working. Like it's funny because

546
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I have to now say, well, I can't say DEI anymore.

547
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:31.799
<v Speaker 2>But that's kind of the world that I was in,

548
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.839
<v Speaker 2>and that anyway, it was in that world you can

549
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:35.839
<v Speaker 2>say whenever you want you right, Dan, Right, I was

550
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 2>in that world. I was in that belonging equity and

551
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.480
<v Speaker 2>shit in education, right, And so I'm in that space,

552
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.440
<v Speaker 2>and so like, I just kind of go heavy on

553
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.880
<v Speaker 2>doing that, and I start writing grants and fellowships and like,

554
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.039
<v Speaker 2>I just figured out a way to survive twenty nineteen

555
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>on just the poems, and thankfully my husband found a

556
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.519
<v Speaker 2>job later that fall, and I defended my dissertation successfully

557
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:58.160
<v Speaker 2>that fall. But I entered a job market in Washington,

558
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.839
<v Speaker 2>d C. And no one wants wanted to hire someone

559
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.000
<v Speaker 2>like me. My PhD is in education leadership, and I

560
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.680
<v Speaker 2>focus on hip hop and spoken word and poets who

561
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.160
<v Speaker 2>do work in education and anyway, there was just no

562
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.319
<v Speaker 2>place that was looking for someone with my particular kind

563
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.319
<v Speaker 2>of skill set. And so then so I'm like, well, whatever.

564
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:17.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm are you saying positive black people aren't marketable?

565
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Is that okay? You know? I'm just like academia is

566
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:23.680
<v Speaker 2>just like dude, like you move in a weird way.

567
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Because although my PhDs in education, the world should know,

568
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I've never been a traditional classroom teacher ever. I've never

569
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.920
<v Speaker 2>been taught in K through twelve. I've done college courses,

570
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:36.319
<v Speaker 2>but I've always been like nonprofit community spaces, after school programs.

571
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 2>I always moved in that space as an educational leader,

572
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:40.519
<v Speaker 2>and so I knew that I wasn't the only one.

573
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.640
<v Speaker 2>So that's what my dissertation is all about. So I

574
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.119
<v Speaker 2>entered this world with this PhD, and I don't want

575
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 2>to be a principal. I don't want to be a superintendent.

576
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:49.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be a chancellor of schools, like

577
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I want to run a bureaucrat, and like I don't

578
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:53.480
<v Speaker 2>want to do that, and so, and I also am

579
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:54.920
<v Speaker 2>not fully sure I want to be like a full

580
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.680
<v Speaker 2>time assistant professor. So anyway, so I go heavy with

581
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>applying for jobs, and right now poetry is paying the way.

582
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:04.000
<v Speaker 2>And so in February of twenty twenty, I'm at the

583
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.039
<v Speaker 2>University of South Carolina, Charlotte. I mean, I keep saying

584
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.799
<v Speaker 2>that I'm at the University of South Carolina in Columbia,

585
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>South Carolina, Okay, And I'm there for a writer's retreat

586
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.519
<v Speaker 2>for some young people with my friend and fellow author,

587
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:21.759
<v Speaker 2>Jason Reynolds. So the world would certainly know the name

588
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Jason Reynolds if you're into young adult literature. He is

589
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:26.119
<v Speaker 2>a beast to be working with, but also one of

590
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.039
<v Speaker 2>my very dear friends. Love him very much. Anyway, twenty twenty,

591
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:31.599
<v Speaker 2>and he's talking about his life as a young adult writer.

592
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:33.799
<v Speaker 2>So being someone who writes on the page, he's also

593
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:36.400
<v Speaker 2>a poet on the page, but I am a poet

594
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.480
<v Speaker 2>on the stage. I'm performing. So we're talking about our

595
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:41.119
<v Speaker 2>careers in that regard. And after every event, there was

596
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.680
<v Speaker 2>always a book signing for Jason and because he's got

597
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.359
<v Speaker 2>tons of books, and I'm used to sitting at this

598
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:47.759
<v Speaker 2>table with Jay because and he's my friend. So it's nothing.

599
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 2>And I'm in my phone just doing nothing, typing something,

600
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>and this little black boy gets out of one of

601
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Jason's get out of the Jason's line with this black

602
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.480
<v Speaker 2>woman and they walk right up to me. And this

603
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:02.359
<v Speaker 2>little boy says, mister Tony, where's your book? And I

604
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.559
<v Speaker 2>was like, book, I don't. I don't have a I

605
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:06.480
<v Speaker 2>don't have a book. And it is twenty nineteen. I don't.

606
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:08.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't have a twenty twenty. I mean like, I

607
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>don't have a book. I don't write. I don't write books,

608
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, I write academic papers I published on the page.

609
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.519
<v Speaker 2>I say something silly, and he sort of looked a

610
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.559
<v Speaker 2>little disappointed and was like okay. And I think that

611
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:20.279
<v Speaker 2>his mom or the lady he was with might have

612
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:22.200
<v Speaker 2>said something like, well, let us know when you write one.

613
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:24.880
<v Speaker 2>And I remember going back to my hotel room that night,

614
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.960
<v Speaker 2>like what up, you know, Like, what in the world

615
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:31.759
<v Speaker 2>are they talking about? And I decided in that moment,

616
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm going to write a young adult

617
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.799
<v Speaker 2>version of my dissertation. That's word. That's I was like that.

618
00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:41.799
<v Speaker 2>I was, I'm gonna translate this big old academic thing,

619
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm boom, I'm gonna write this thing. Yeah, And

620
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:46.839
<v Speaker 2>I get so excited about this, right. I put five

621
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:48.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred words down on the page that night, and I

622
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>go tell Jason the next morning, I'm, yo, Jay, I

623
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.559
<v Speaker 2>think I'm gonna write a book, bruh. And He's like, Okay,

624
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:55.799
<v Speaker 2>Tony sure, and I'm not serious. I think I'm write

625
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:58.400
<v Speaker 2>a book. So we fly back to Washington, DC, and

626
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:03.119
<v Speaker 2>then March twenty twenty hits and COVID boom. So education

627
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.119
<v Speaker 2>landscape changes, the art spaces changed, like everything changed. My

628
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.480
<v Speaker 2>economic reality changed significantly, right, I was like, oh my gosh.

629
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.000
<v Speaker 2>And so that's when I was like, Yo, the only

630
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:16.480
<v Speaker 2>thing that I know I might be able to do

631
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:18.359
<v Speaker 2>to get some money down the line is I gotta

632
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:21.279
<v Speaker 2>probably work on seriously publishing this book. So I'm writing

633
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 2>for more grants and I decide to write this book.

634
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.440
<v Speaker 2>So I write this manuscript that I think is a

635
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.079
<v Speaker 2>young adult version of my dissertation. And I learned that

636
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:31.319
<v Speaker 2>what I got to do is get a literary agent,

637
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.640
<v Speaker 2>and I learned how to query a literary agent, and

638
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.119
<v Speaker 2>I got an agent within like two months, which apparently

639
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:40.119
<v Speaker 2>is unheard of in the industry. I got a literary

640
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:42.240
<v Speaker 2>agent very very fast, and so I got someone willing

641
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:44.119
<v Speaker 2>to represent me. But she said, this is how I'm

642
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:47.160
<v Speaker 2>going to connect the dots, Tony. The thing that you

643
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.880
<v Speaker 2>are writing is not a young adult version of your dissertation.

644
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.640
<v Speaker 2>The thing that you are writing is there's something you

645
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>want to tell, a story about yourself, about you being

646
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.079
<v Speaker 2>this little gay black boy. Because apparently I didn't realize,

647
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.799
<v Speaker 2>but I had woven that narrative into what I thought

648
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>was my young adult book, like I was somehow embedding

649
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.960
<v Speaker 2>the story about me in the story about my dissertation.

650
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:11.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why, but my brain was doing that.

651
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>So she helped me tease all that stuff out. And

652
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.880
<v Speaker 2>what came out, of course, was how the Boogeyman became

653
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:19.440
<v Speaker 2>a poet. And so what happened was so anyway, So

654
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.160
<v Speaker 2>while I'm trying to figure out how to write how

655
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.240
<v Speaker 2>the Boogeyman became a poet, I'm also still writing poetry.

656
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>And so my agent, after about a year and a

657
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.119
<v Speaker 2>half of working with her, She was like, Tony, look,

658
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 2>it's been a while. It seems like you're still trying

659
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:34.519
<v Speaker 2>to figure out this memoir thing you want to write.

660
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Why don't we just go with the poetry collection. Publishers

661
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>in a young adult space don't really you know, buy

662
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 2>poetry collections, but you know, we can just get your

663
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 2>feet wet. We'll see. I say, okay, So I put

664
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.839
<v Speaker 2>together the collection Knucklehead. I was like, I got these

665
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.559
<v Speaker 2>poems that I've been writing to myself for the last

666
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.880
<v Speaker 2>couple of years. We can go with this. She goes, okay,

667
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.759
<v Speaker 2>But in my book proposal, I say, I'm also working

668
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 2>on this memoir and I think it's going to be

669
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.799
<v Speaker 2>a memoir written in verse called How the Boogeyman Became

670
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.240
<v Speaker 2>a Poet and I'll tell you by that title in

671
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:04.559
<v Speaker 2>a second. And so we send this out to publishers.

672
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Publishers then right back sort of quickly, and they're like,

673
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.240
<v Speaker 2>wait a minute, this Knucklehead collection is interesting, but what

674
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.480
<v Speaker 2>is this memoir thing? What is that? Right? And so

675
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:16.559
<v Speaker 2>my agent was like, Tony, yo, how fast can you

676
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:19.119
<v Speaker 2>try to put something together? And I think I locked

677
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:21.559
<v Speaker 2>myself in my office for three days straight and just

678
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.519
<v Speaker 2>wrote as much as I possibly could, and I think

679
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.359
<v Speaker 2>I got like the first thirty or forty pages or

680
00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:28.119
<v Speaker 2>something out of something that I thought would be the

681
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.000
<v Speaker 2>memoir How the Boogeyman Became a Poet, and HarperCollins bought

682
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.160
<v Speaker 2>both and they said, but Tony, the publishing world does

683
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.079
<v Speaker 2>not know you. Your memoir needs to come first first, yeah,

684
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:40.559
<v Speaker 2>and then your poetry collection. And I'm so glad it

685
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:42.240
<v Speaker 2>worked out that way, because after I wrote How the

686
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Boogeyman Became a Poet, I didn't realize how I wanted

687
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.359
<v Speaker 2>to format a Knucklehead. So listeners should know that Knucklehead

688
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:51.319
<v Speaker 2>is not a traditional poetry collection in the sense that

689
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.680
<v Speaker 2>there's not a table of contents, and it's not like

690
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:55.759
<v Speaker 2>there's like a themed section. It's not like, oh, I

691
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:57.839
<v Speaker 2>want to read the love poems, let me go to

692
00:33:57.960 --> 00:33:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it kind of is that way, but not really.

693
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>It's something that you are. It's not design for you

694
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.240
<v Speaker 2>to recover the cover. So the titles of the poems

695
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.159
<v Speaker 2>sort of are like transitions in the story of the poems,

696
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:11.920
<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense, and How the Boogeyman Became a

697
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Poet flows the same exact way the titles in the

698
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:18.039
<v Speaker 2>book flow as transitions throughout the entire book. And so

699
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 2>that's sort of like my writing style and the last

700
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:21.679
<v Speaker 2>thing I want to share because I think this is

701
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.480
<v Speaker 2>all important in this story, because this is how I

702
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.199
<v Speaker 2>knew I was gonna be a writer and how it's

703
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:29.400
<v Speaker 2>gonna be connected with the poem. It's also in twenty

704
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.199
<v Speaker 2>nineteen or twenty twenty, when all this turbulence is going on.

705
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm enrolled in therapy. Okay, here we go. I'm enrolled

706
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.519
<v Speaker 2>in therapy, and I am because I'm going through all

707
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:41.000
<v Speaker 2>kinds of things and I don't and I write about

708
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.280
<v Speaker 2>this and knucklehead, I'm fussing at my husband about stuff

709
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.480
<v Speaker 2>that I got none to do with him, and he's

710
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:47.840
<v Speaker 2>telling me like, look, I don't know what's going on

711
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.760
<v Speaker 2>with you, but you need to figure this figure this

712
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:51.880
<v Speaker 2>shit out, like you know what I mean. And this

713
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.880
<v Speaker 2>is okay because I don't know what it is, but

714
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.159
<v Speaker 2>it's not me that you whatever. And so I'm in

715
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:58.360
<v Speaker 2>therapy and my therapist is like, yo, Tony, and this

716
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:01.599
<v Speaker 2>is talk space, so I'm typing to someone right and

717
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:03.519
<v Speaker 2>my therapist is like, yo, Tony, it sounds to me

718
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>like you have a lot of repressed anger and sadness

719
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.679
<v Speaker 2>and confused like it, and you're projecting this. It seems

720
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.440
<v Speaker 2>to be probably on your partner, and so you need

721
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.480
<v Speaker 2>to figure out where this comes from. He says, didn't

722
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 2>you tell me you were a poet? I say yeah.

723
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.719
<v Speaker 2>He said, how long you've been writing poetry? I was like,

724
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:21.400
<v Speaker 2>since I was a kid. He's like, you got any

725
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.119
<v Speaker 2>kid poems? I'm like, yeah, I got tons of them.

726
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I kept them. And so what readers need to know

727
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.320
<v Speaker 2>and listeners need to know is I had a box

728
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.960
<v Speaker 2>of poems that I've been hoarding around since I was

729
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:32.280
<v Speaker 2>a kid, and I write about this and how the

730
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Boogeyman became a poet. It was blue and blah blah blah.

731
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.760
<v Speaker 2>But I took the lid off and I spent a

732
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 2>weekend reading through those poems I wrote myself as a kid.

733
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Some of them made me cry, some of them made

734
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.360
<v Speaker 2>me very angry. A couple of them I set on fire.

735
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:48.559
<v Speaker 2>But it became this spiritual practice because I realized that

736
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.679
<v Speaker 2>as a kid, I was using poetry to filter out

737
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.719
<v Speaker 2>the noise. I was writing stuff about what the world

738
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.920
<v Speaker 2>was telling me about myself. But then I was also

739
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.320
<v Speaker 2>writing positive things, and so what the world needs to

740
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.760
<v Speaker 2>know is that I those are the hand copies poems

741
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.719
<v Speaker 2>that are in how the Bookman became a poet, And

742
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.760
<v Speaker 2>so that same process that I was using as a

743
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:09.840
<v Speaker 2>kid is the same process that I use now as

744
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>an adult, which is how the poems and Knucklehead came

745
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.400
<v Speaker 2>to be. So that's how these things sort of flow together.

746
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:15.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's how I knew I was gonna be a writer.

747
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Was when I realized, like I was meant to be

748
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.559
<v Speaker 2>a poet. My planet in my belly is to be

749
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>a poet. This is the thing, and I'm gonna keep

750
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.280
<v Speaker 2>pushing with it, and readers should know. The last poem

751
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>in Knucklehead is about what it's like being someone who's

752
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.599
<v Speaker 2>sole living is on his poems. That's the only thing

753
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.119
<v Speaker 2>I've been doing for the last six years. I never

754
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.880
<v Speaker 2>got another full time job except for the one I've

755
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:38.760
<v Speaker 2>created for myself.

756
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.199
<v Speaker 1>Work. You were just you had no choice but to

757
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:42.760
<v Speaker 1>be an artist.

758
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I had no choice, and like, literally, I feel like

759
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:47.559
<v Speaker 2>the God or the universe squeeze it, like squeeze it

760
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:49.119
<v Speaker 2>out of me. It was like, look, here's your moment

761
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.039
<v Speaker 2>and matter. And the last thing I'll say is I'm

762
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.800
<v Speaker 2>even thinking about this right now because the company I

763
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.159
<v Speaker 2>wound up creating a company off of my dissertation, which

764
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.039
<v Speaker 2>wound up winning a lot of awards. It's called EDMC Academy,

765
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:01.159
<v Speaker 2>and we do education, tsulting, and a lot of us

766
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:04.679
<v Speaker 2>are poets, spoken word artists, rappers and MC's ed MC's

767
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.440
<v Speaker 2>educational MC's we move crowds and education YadA YadA, YadA, right,

768
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.840
<v Speaker 2>or as we say, master conditions for student Learning and Engagement. Well,

769
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:14.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our work was around DEI and so

770
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.840
<v Speaker 2>what's happening now is a lot of our contracts that

771
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:21.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm used to us getting have now been canceled right right,

772
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.280
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm sort of back in this position. Back

773
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:26.559
<v Speaker 2>in like twenty nineteen, it was like, well, brouh, what

774
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:28.199
<v Speaker 2>else you're gonna do? You know what I mean? And

775
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I got these books and so the world

776
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.199
<v Speaker 2>should know. Yeah, I'm thinking about writing another book.

777
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:33.639
<v Speaker 1>You know.

778
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, because I'm like, the universe is letting me know.

779
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:37.519
<v Speaker 2>Now is the time you got to squeeze another one

780
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:37.760
<v Speaker 2>out of you?

781
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Bro?

782
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.159
<v Speaker 2>This is one of those moments where you gotta there's

783
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.880
<v Speaker 2>something you gotta now is the is your window? And

784
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.639
<v Speaker 2>you know these conditions because I write a nup overhead

785
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:50.039
<v Speaker 2>about how difficult it could be sometimes it be in

786
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:51.800
<v Speaker 2>heavy pursuit of your purpose, and like there will be

787
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:55.239
<v Speaker 2>all these distractions to try to convince you otherwise, and

788
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.599
<v Speaker 2>it's like, nah, you, I'm like, I know this territory.

789
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:03.119
<v Speaker 2>I'd have been here before child Trump child okay, lost

790
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the contract child Like. I'm like, you know, someone called

791
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:08.639
<v Speaker 2>my husband a faggot not too long a child Like.

792
00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:12.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm just thinking to myself, like get out the way,

793
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:13.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, just moves to me.

794
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:19.239
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm right, and a phrase that I have taken

795
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:21.440
<v Speaker 1>the heart, especially now that I work in the field

796
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:27.079
<v Speaker 1>of recovery. Obstacles are just there to weed out the

797
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.559
<v Speaker 1>people who really mean it, who really want it, you know,

798
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:35.400
<v Speaker 1>like if you don't really want it, Oh, that's an obstacle,

799
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.440
<v Speaker 1>all right, I guess I have to stop now.

800
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I love them because I also write about in

801
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.440
<v Speaker 2>How the Boogeyman Become a Poet and in Knucklehead. My

802
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.239
<v Speaker 2>father dealt with addictions when I was a kid, and

803
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>so he was absent for the most part. He's fine now.

804
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.199
<v Speaker 2>My father's been sober for I think thirty years. I

805
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.320
<v Speaker 2>don't even know how long at this point. An amazing

806
00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:57.000
<v Speaker 2>man always gives me lots of positive affirmations. But I

807
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:58.719
<v Speaker 2>think so much about even how I had to write

808
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:02.079
<v Speaker 2>poetry to sort of be even understand his relationship with

809
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:06.480
<v Speaker 2>his addiction and his relationship with me. And so in Knucklehead,

810
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.599
<v Speaker 2>you know their poems and I write about my dad

811
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:09.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know all that kind of stuff. But I

812
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:13.239
<v Speaker 2>think so much about your point about just even like

813
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:18.559
<v Speaker 2>connecting health, mental health, your physical health, your spiritual health

814
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:20.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of with these positive nerrors that we need. And

815
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:24.039
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, but you mentioned, you know, sobriety addiction. I

816
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:25.719
<v Speaker 2>meanly thought about, like y'all write about that too.

817
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know you are what I like to refer

818
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:34.320
<v Speaker 1>to as an artivist. Oh wow, I received that, like

819
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:39.000
<v Speaker 1>just we we need what you're doing. And hearing you,

820
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:45.400
<v Speaker 1>hearing you read the one work, like you lapsed into

821
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:56.679
<v Speaker 1>this cadence that was giving me, like, if not specifically MLK, yeah,

822
00:39:56.719 --> 00:39:59.280
<v Speaker 1>like you're on a podium in front of a crowd.

823
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.039
<v Speaker 2>I really really dig this because even within Knucklehead, there's

824
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.960
<v Speaker 2>an illustration that is a picture of doctor King's head,

825
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 2>and there's a poement that I talk about you know,

826
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>being at a microphone sort of like screaming out poems,

827
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.840
<v Speaker 2>just trying to you know, awaken people, just to the

828
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.599
<v Speaker 2>idea that we've always been liberated, like we need to

829
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.039
<v Speaker 2>just literally wake up around how great and amazing we are.

830
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:24.679
<v Speaker 2>But I am a performer all day. And the other

831
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:26.679
<v Speaker 2>thing is, you know, because you mentioned like sort of

832
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.559
<v Speaker 2>being high up in Doctor King another doc that I

833
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.079
<v Speaker 2>want to connect this and I've said this in several interviews,

834
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:34.280
<v Speaker 2>but poetry I understand this, I really really do now,

835
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Like it is a it's a spiritual exercise. It really

836
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:41.440
<v Speaker 2>is like sometimes a download from ancestor sometimes it's a

837
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:44.480
<v Speaker 2>real thing that sort of happens, and with that download

838
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.440
<v Speaker 2>comes a rhythm sometimes. And this is why I tell

839
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.880
<v Speaker 2>people that I'm a poet, but I'm not a rapper.

840
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.440
<v Speaker 2>And don't be wrong, most rappers are poets, or at

841
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.599
<v Speaker 2>least should be, because rap ain't nothing but poetry spoken

842
00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:58.480
<v Speaker 2>over time beat that must rhyme, and a lot of

843
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.519
<v Speaker 2>rap know about poet anyway. But I'm like, yo, because

844
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.559
<v Speaker 2>for me, what comes first, Like if I'm feeling heavy

845
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:06.239
<v Speaker 2>about a thing that I just need to write something,

846
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:08.960
<v Speaker 2>what comes first for me of the words right, I'll

847
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.519
<v Speaker 2>just like write words down and then I'll read. I'll

848
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:13.360
<v Speaker 2>read what I've been writing, and then there's like a

849
00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>natural rhythm that just kind of happens. And so each

850
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:20.199
<v Speaker 2>poem and Knucklehead kind of has its own rhythm and cadence.

851
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 2>There's a someone was telling me the other day there's

852
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.760
<v Speaker 2>a musicality in my poems, almost like Langton Hughes and

853
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:27.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I think so much about like yeah,

854
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I don't know where it comes from, but

855
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.760
<v Speaker 2>there is a rhythm. And so when you said that,

856
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, yeah, when I read my work, this is

857
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:35.039
<v Speaker 2>this is what's new for me is so many poems

858
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:37.800
<v Speaker 2>in Knucklehead are ones that turned into spoken word poems.

859
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.360
<v Speaker 2>So I'm used to performing them and so holding the

860
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.079
<v Speaker 2>book while reading them, and even in the book they've

861
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.559
<v Speaker 2>been edited just for more clarity for the reader, you know.

862
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.000
<v Speaker 2>So even having to like read my book is now

863
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.639
<v Speaker 2>become a different kind of performance for me, you know.

864
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:54.239
<v Speaker 2>And so to hear that, you know, it's still resonating.

865
00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:56.039
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of a cool experience for me because I'm

866
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.480
<v Speaker 2>used to this no book on a mic, just going

867
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and so now to have something and then to read it.

868
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just a different way of experiencing the work.

869
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:07.679
<v Speaker 1>When you perform your work, do you ever, is there

870
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:09.719
<v Speaker 1>ever a musical component to it?

871
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:12.679
<v Speaker 2>Never a musical component. And it's actually a funny running

872
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.320
<v Speaker 2>joke in my close friends. So I have a lot

873
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.199
<v Speaker 2>of close friends who are singers here in the Washington,

874
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:19.199
<v Speaker 2>DC area, like fire singers, and I'm whenever there's like

875
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.159
<v Speaker 2>an event, I'm always like the one featured poet and

876
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:25.199
<v Speaker 2>sometimes well you know, we'll get on stage together or whatever.

877
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:27.920
<v Speaker 2>And so sometimes I've tried to perform with like a

878
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.039
<v Speaker 2>piano behind me or of like drums behind me, and

879
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:36.199
<v Speaker 2>it always throws me off. And so there was one

880
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>time my friends made a joke where I'd like literally

881
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:39.840
<v Speaker 2>turned around and told the band. I was like, can

882
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:40.840
<v Speaker 2>y'all just stop playing?

883
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 1>Like this is cute and all?

884
00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:47.679
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, because you know, because for me again, because

885
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.280
<v Speaker 2>it's so much about transcendence for me, I'm like, yo, y'all,

886
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:54.639
<v Speaker 2>reckon my flow. Let me let me do my thing. Now.

887
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:57.039
<v Speaker 2>What I will say is cool is when you I've

888
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.159
<v Speaker 2>not fully listened to it all the way yet. But

889
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:03.039
<v Speaker 2>because I sell narrated this audiobook and HarperCollins audio. They

890
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.480
<v Speaker 2>especially with How the Boogeyman became a poet. They add

891
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:10.599
<v Speaker 2>in production and stuff, and so how the Boogeyman became

892
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.719
<v Speaker 2>a poet by the way turned out, and I was

893
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:14.960
<v Speaker 2>so surprised by all the things that they did. And

894
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.000
<v Speaker 2>I've now been listening to Knucklehead and the way that

895
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>they've incorporated music in the background, the way that they've

896
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:28.360
<v Speaker 2>incorporated almost like typewriter sounds. They have somehow connected musicality

897
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think in a really really cool way, something

898
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that I would not have known that I would have

899
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.360
<v Speaker 2>been able to do. But yeah, yeah, yeah, you got

900
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:35.519
<v Speaker 2>to check out the audiobook.

901
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.800
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's already on my list. I still have

902
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.360
<v Speaker 1>a credit and audible, so.

903
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. And I got to say, you know, one

904
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:44.199
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons why I'm so slow to listen to it,

905
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:45.599
<v Speaker 2>and I was the same way with How the Boogeyman

906
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Became a poet is because it's just interesting to hear

907
00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:53.480
<v Speaker 2>myself read out loud to myself stuff about myself. Like

908
00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:57.679
<v Speaker 2>it's like a such a multi layered experience, you know,

909
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:00.639
<v Speaker 2>it's like, oh wow, like this is okay, Tony.

910
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Like how hard is it to not judge yourself?

911
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, because I definitely am like, oh I didn't

912
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:09.920
<v Speaker 2>say that part right, or that didn't go so well,

913
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Like I find my and sometimes I find myself like

914
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.159
<v Speaker 2>cringing it, like I can't believe I read this poem

915
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:17.239
<v Speaker 2>out loud, Like I can't believe myself, you know. So

916
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 2>there's this, and so I'm experiencing Knucklehead in a really

917
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.280
<v Speaker 2>interesting way where I'm like, ah, I'm too scared to

918
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:23.599
<v Speaker 2>finish listening to it.

919
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, But yeah, and it takes a while to learn

920
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:32.280
<v Speaker 1>to tolerate the sound of your own voice. Yeah, yeah,

921
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:37.159
<v Speaker 1>Like I'm so grateful to have a podcast with almost

922
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:39.800
<v Speaker 1>two hundred well not quite quite, but knocking on two

923
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:47.679
<v Speaker 1>hundred episodes, like okay, knocking on one hundred and fifty.

924
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:51.760
<v Speaker 1>But but yeah, it takes a while to like get

925
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:55.440
<v Speaker 1>past oh my god, that's mean to being able to

926
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:59.000
<v Speaker 1>hear yourself. And if you're like me, which I think

927
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:04.119
<v Speaker 1>you are, when you perform, you say and do things

928
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.480
<v Speaker 1>on stage that you.

929
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Would never do. Yes, yes, for sure. And there's because

930
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:12.679
<v Speaker 2>it's a performance for me. And so I'm like standing microphone.

931
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a I'm not the kind of poet that

932
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.480
<v Speaker 2>once like a stool it's a sit and you know,

933
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:20.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I am like high energy crazy and sometimes

934
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.119
<v Speaker 2>there's even an improvisation. And so that's the other thing

935
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:25.920
<v Speaker 2>that's really interesting with Knucklehead is, you know, I'm so

936
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:28.559
<v Speaker 2>used to us spoken like a live audience where there's

937
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:31.119
<v Speaker 2>call and response, right, And so for me, it was

938
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:33.039
<v Speaker 2>so cool listening to you just do it. M h

939
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:36.239
<v Speaker 2>m hmm, right, because I'm like, that's what I you know,

940
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm used to hearing that. But when this book gets

941
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:43.559
<v Speaker 2>in the hands of readers, I may never hear their response, right,

942
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:45.159
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so for me it's an interesting thing.

943
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.320
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just like, oh, I hope, if anything, I

944
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.639
<v Speaker 2>hope they hear my call, you know. I hope they

945
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:53.360
<v Speaker 2>hear my call, you know. And if anything, and hope

946
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.920
<v Speaker 2>they hope they know. I want to hear your response

947
00:45:56.840 --> 00:45:58.719
<v Speaker 2>right right, right right, you know, or I hope you're

948
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.840
<v Speaker 2>responding whatever that might mean, you know, writing in the

949
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:02.920
<v Speaker 2>margin or doing something you.

950
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Know, which I mean I did. So you have this

951
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:13.400
<v Speaker 1>passion for hip hop, Yeah, that filters through your work.

952
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:17.079
<v Speaker 1>Do you ever listen to music while you're writing?

953
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, great, way to discuss this. So for me,

954
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 2>whenever I think about hip hop. And I say this

955
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot to young people and learners and listeners in

956
00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>particular readers, is that I understand I only understand hip

957
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:34.159
<v Speaker 2>hop to be culture culture meaning attitudes, philosophies, beliefs, music, food, dance,

958
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:36.079
<v Speaker 2>all that kind of stuff. When I was a kid,

959
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.239
<v Speaker 2>I was wearing my hat to the back and rocking

960
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:41.480
<v Speaker 2>baggy jeans and same words like dope, fresh and fly.

961
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>I was absorbing culture. Hip hop. Culture's music is rap music, right,

962
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:49.079
<v Speaker 2>And so I like to make that distinction because I'm like, yo,

963
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:50.559
<v Speaker 2>Whenever I think about hip hop, I think about the

964
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:53.639
<v Speaker 2>culture of hip hop, and it's about peace, love, unity,

965
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.079
<v Speaker 2>having fun and joy. And when I was coming up,

966
00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.800
<v Speaker 2>it was about socially conscious music and knowing who you

967
00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:01.039
<v Speaker 2>are and the fifth and the hip hop is knowledge

968
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:03.159
<v Speaker 2>of self and all the way. So I do consider

969
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:06.159
<v Speaker 2>myself an MC meaning I can move a crowd, don't sleep.

970
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:08.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm just not a rapper. So for me, like when

971
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I think about hip hop, and I just want to

972
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:13.239
<v Speaker 2>say so to people, just to know that when I'm

973
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:15.000
<v Speaker 2>writing about hip hop and I'm talking about hip hop,

974
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:17.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about the philosophy of it, you know, beyond

975
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.519
<v Speaker 2>the music. But yes, but what I listened to is

976
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:26.519
<v Speaker 2>a hip hop instrumentals because I'm listening to other words,

977
00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:29.360
<v Speaker 2>it'll throw me off, but I do. I bob my

978
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 2>head while I'm writing. Yeah. Matter of fact, before I

979
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:33.960
<v Speaker 2>hopped his interview, I was working on something and I

980
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:38.039
<v Speaker 2>got my hip hop beats music instrumentals playing. But yeah, yeah,

981
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:40.559
<v Speaker 2>but I listened to a lot of non mainstream artists

982
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.199
<v Speaker 2>people probably wouldn't well, people do know about. But I

983
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.440
<v Speaker 2>listened to a lot of j I d or Jed.

984
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.960
<v Speaker 2>I listened to of course Doci. I listened to Lula Fiasco,

985
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:54.159
<v Speaker 2>Tyler the Creator, you know. I listened to sometimes Rico Nasty,

986
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:57.039
<v Speaker 2>I like Rhapsody. But a lot of artists I listened

987
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.159
<v Speaker 2>to most people probably wouldn't here on mainstream radio, and

988
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm okay with that. But I like, I'm into lyricists.

989
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I like good lyrics. I still listen to Lauren Hill

990
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:07.599
<v Speaker 2>and Missy Elliott mc queen Latifah. I'm still very much

991
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:09.000
<v Speaker 2>into nineties hip hop.

992
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:15.159
<v Speaker 1>Sweet quests, yeah, trual and my soul. Oh that's the thing.

993
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:18.679
<v Speaker 1>Like in the nineties with hip hop, like it was

994
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:23.280
<v Speaker 1>cool to be black and intelligent. Yes, and that's what

995
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:24.159
<v Speaker 1>I was steeped in.

996
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 2>I missed that shit, yes, And and then because of

997
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:28.760
<v Speaker 2>hip hop philosopher me, I can't help it, I'm like.

998
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:34.559
<v Speaker 2>And then, you know, mainstream broadcast channels and such media

999
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:38.079
<v Speaker 2>entertainment industry realizes how much money could be made when

1000
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:42.159
<v Speaker 2>people are promoting misogyny and violence and materialism, and so

1001
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:43.840
<v Speaker 2>let's just go ahead and sell that. And now we're

1002
00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:46.280
<v Speaker 2>going to sell this mainstream narrative that hip hop is

1003
00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:48.960
<v Speaker 2>about that, and it's not. Hip hop is not about that.

1004
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Hip hop is all about community and coming together. Hip

1005
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:55.239
<v Speaker 2>Hop culture was created because black and brown kids needed

1006
00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:58.880
<v Speaker 2>an outlet to deal with racism and oppression and poverty,

1007
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:02.280
<v Speaker 2>and you know, gay people needed to deal with you know, homophobia,

1008
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:04.599
<v Speaker 2>and trans folks deal with like these things were happening.

1009
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:07.280
<v Speaker 2>So they created poems and they performed those poems as

1010
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:08.800
<v Speaker 2>rap music. You know what I mean. I'm like, people

1011
00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:11.960
<v Speaker 2>understand where it came from. My enslaved African ancest has

1012
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:14.679
<v Speaker 2>already had rhythm and drum right where they were a slave.

1013
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.079
<v Speaker 2>Let's be clear, hip hop has always been about freedom

1014
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:21.079
<v Speaker 2>and black people's joy. It's never been about shoot them up.

1015
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:22.079
<v Speaker 2>It's never been about.

1016
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:24.519
<v Speaker 1>That, right you know. And and that's the thing because

1017
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 1>like you know, that genre started off as you know,

1018
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.199
<v Speaker 1>we are trapped in this environment and no one is

1019
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.360
<v Speaker 1>listening to us. So I'm going to put my story

1020
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:41.000
<v Speaker 1>to music. Yes, but all that was heard was gun

1021
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.800
<v Speaker 1>should kill.

1022
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that became let's that's the thing, let's do it,

1023
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.280
<v Speaker 2>let's grab it. You know. It's funny when I, you know,

1024
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:47.760
<v Speaker 2>listen to you you know, I go to schools and

1025
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.239
<v Speaker 2>I talk to young people. Now I have to explain

1026
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to them that I'm like, you know, about my consumption

1027
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:53.519
<v Speaker 2>of hip hop, because they always like, who's your favorite artist?

1028
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Or they want to, you know, want me to get

1029
00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:57.679
<v Speaker 2>into the debates about Kendrick and Drake, which I will engage.

1030
00:49:57.880 --> 00:49:59.800
<v Speaker 2>I love a good debate, right you know. But then

1031
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:01.440
<v Speaker 2>when and they ask me who's some my favorite artists

1032
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.159
<v Speaker 2>are the only ones that I know they recognize is

1033
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Laurence Hill. And sometimes I'm always wondering, you know, what

1034
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.440
<v Speaker 2>it is, but they specifically always know when I say

1035
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:10.519
<v Speaker 2>Lauren Hill. When I mentioned others, they don't, And I

1036
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.400
<v Speaker 2>tell them, I'm like, y'all gotta understand that doctor Keith

1037
00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:15.599
<v Speaker 2>is about to be forty four years old and I

1038
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 2>just don't listen to the same music y'all are listening

1039
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.039
<v Speaker 2>to right now. And I was like, I'm officially at

1040
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:21.599
<v Speaker 2>that age where I get to say, yeah, I say

1041
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:24.079
<v Speaker 2>things like I don't know what these little kids listen

1042
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.840
<v Speaker 2>to it to, you know, but I don't judge you,

1043
00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:27.880
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. I'm like, but I'm not

1044
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:30.280
<v Speaker 2>judging y'all. Hip hop is always going to be a

1045
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:33.000
<v Speaker 2>youth created culture, and so y'all are the ones moving

1046
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.119
<v Speaker 2>it forward. I just want to remind you. I'll let

1047
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 2>you know the history of the culture so that you

1048
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.480
<v Speaker 2>also can filter out some of the noise and maybe

1049
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.280
<v Speaker 2>create something that's counter you know what I mean. Just

1050
00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:45.119
<v Speaker 2>know that, you know. So I'm like, I'll never judge you,

1051
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.719
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know little YACHTI I don't know a

1052
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 2>little baby. I don't know.

1053
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.320
<v Speaker 1>All the babies and the young and can't.

1054
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Help them, like and I don't even feel bad about it.

1055
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:57.960
<v Speaker 2>I own it. I'm like, oh, no, I don't know, y'all,

1056
00:50:57.960 --> 00:50:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what you're listening to.

1057
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:01.639
<v Speaker 1>I got nothing out't the number of if I had

1058
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:03.119
<v Speaker 1>a nickel for every time I said it's just not

1059
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:03.440
<v Speaker 1>for me.

1060
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:05.199
<v Speaker 2>It's just not like I got nothing.

1061
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:07.800
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I love me a good ratchet anthem

1062
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 1>every now and again.

1063
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I just listen to Ranchet anthem if I

1064
00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:13.920
<v Speaker 2>need to hear something. He is definitely into, like he

1065
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.119
<v Speaker 2>definitely went the whole like city girls phase, and my

1066
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Harry is very much into all the hood rat ratchets,

1067
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:25.599
<v Speaker 2>you know what, Live your life baby Like.

1068
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:29.440
<v Speaker 1>When we do a quote unquote regular episode of the podcast,

1069
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.519
<v Speaker 1>we have a segment called the fifteen minute Fave, and

1070
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:34.599
<v Speaker 1>the fifteen minute Fave is something I started years ago.

1071
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 1>It's like, this song was my favorite song on the

1072
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.119
<v Speaker 1>planet for the fifteen minutes I was paying attention and

1073
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.079
<v Speaker 1>sometimes I preface it with now, this one's a low ratchet,

1074
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:47.800
<v Speaker 1>but it's so good.

1075
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.400
<v Speaker 2>We need you know what. But I think the beauty

1076
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.320
<v Speaker 2>about that though, is I think about this too, especially

1077
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:54.679
<v Speaker 2>within the context of hip hop culture and the music

1078
00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:56.400
<v Speaker 2>that we had and we were coming up, is there

1079
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.559
<v Speaker 2>was just more balance, right, And I'm there was just

1080
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:02.559
<v Speaker 2>slooping more balance because I was like, yo, don't sleep

1081
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:06.320
<v Speaker 2>when I heard don't you know pop that Doodle Brown? What?

1082
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:09.360
<v Speaker 2>But I'm like, yeah, like you know, I'm getting it. Popping.

1083
00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:12.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm also listening to you know, Tupac was also,

1084
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, someone who wrote from sort of multiple sides

1085
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:16.599
<v Speaker 2>of himself. So I'm thinking to myself, like, there was

1086
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:19.800
<v Speaker 2>at least some balance. You know, we could still party

1087
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:21.719
<v Speaker 2>and maybe shoot them up a little bit, be ratchet,

1088
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.199
<v Speaker 2>but there was also social consciousness. And I think that

1089
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.119
<v Speaker 2>for me, I'm like, I just missed the balance. I

1090
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:30.119
<v Speaker 2>just missed the balance. And I also I'm so curious

1091
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:33.840
<v Speaker 2>about the spaces in which black gay men find themselves

1092
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 2>within the context of hip hop. I think about this

1093
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.119
<v Speaker 2>quite a bit. Within hip hop, I wouldn't be loved musically,

1094
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:44.079
<v Speaker 2>but within the hip hop context of education, I'm loved greatly.

1095
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:49.039
<v Speaker 1>That's why I love like every now and again when

1096
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:52.679
<v Speaker 1>Bob and Drag Queen decides that she's a rapper and

1097
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:57.000
<v Speaker 1>that's not shade, like, well, we'll give a platform to

1098
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.360
<v Speaker 1>a handful of the queer rappers that out there, and

1099
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:02.800
<v Speaker 1>like the song I'm thinking about in particularly gay bars

1100
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:07.320
<v Speaker 1>like and that's how I discovered, you know, like all

1101
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.480
<v Speaker 1>the like Ocean Kelly, you know, and these folks that

1102
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:12.000
<v Speaker 1>are like, oh damn.

1103
00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and and who have bars, and that's the thing

1104
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:17.519
<v Speaker 2>who And that's the thing because I'm like, it's I

1105
00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:20.480
<v Speaker 2>always well, I don't want to like separate mcs from

1106
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:21.719
<v Speaker 2>rappers because I don't want to be one of those

1107
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:23.519
<v Speaker 2>people who like draws lines and saying about hip hop.

1108
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:26.880
<v Speaker 2>But I do believe there's people who can absolutely like

1109
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.519
<v Speaker 2>write raps and can probably wrap in a studio. And

1110
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:31.719
<v Speaker 2>then there are people who can you know, write raps

1111
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:35.039
<v Speaker 2>if they are writing their raps, who can like perform

1112
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:37.960
<v Speaker 2>live and like move a crowd, who can MC like

1113
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I think I think about I sort of always make

1114
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.000
<v Speaker 2>a bit of these distinctions, and so for me, I

1115
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.960
<v Speaker 2>would love to like be because I'm like, yo, gay people,

1116
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:46.639
<v Speaker 2>we some of the best mcs when you think about

1117
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:55.320
<v Speaker 2>ballroom culture is the one who's literally moving that entire crowd,

1118
00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:57.920
<v Speaker 2>right but with the rhythm and you know, I'm just

1119
00:53:58.199 --> 00:53:59.960
<v Speaker 2>have so many something.

1120
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.320
<v Speaker 1>He was a young black man I follow on social

1121
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:04.519
<v Speaker 1>media whose name is escaping right now, and I hate it,

1122
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:08.800
<v Speaker 1>but he's a ballroom commentator. But and he does videos

1123
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:13.400
<v Speaker 1>where like he'll take mainstream songs like Broadway songs or whatever,

1124
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:17.199
<v Speaker 1>and he'll like give it the ballroom chance, yes, and

1125
00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:20.679
<v Speaker 1>it's so feared. Yeah, yeah, and he did this like

1126
00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:24.360
<v Speaker 1>flow chart that took the elements of hip hop and

1127
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>the elements of ballroom and talked about how it's the

1128
00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:29.960
<v Speaker 1>same shit what I'm talking about. I'm gonna find it

1129
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:30.760
<v Speaker 1>and I'm gonna send it to you.

1130
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Please do, please do, because I'm like, I want to

1131
00:54:32.920 --> 00:54:35.840
<v Speaker 2>start consuming that kind of work because I'm just, I

1132
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:37.760
<v Speaker 2>just I have so many questions. I'm just And also

1133
00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:39.800
<v Speaker 2>I've actually never been to a ball I would love

1134
00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:41.199
<v Speaker 2>to go to a ball It's so funny to think

1135
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:43.119
<v Speaker 2>that I'm a gay black man America has never ever

1136
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:44.000
<v Speaker 2>ever been to a ball.

1137
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:49.639
<v Speaker 1>There was like five seconds like they were trying to

1138
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:53.239
<v Speaker 1>get me to to to walk for the House of Ebony,

1139
00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:57.760
<v Speaker 1>and I got scared. But at the same time, I

1140
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:01.920
<v Speaker 1>then became obsessed with ballroom. So it's like I know

1141
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:06.760
<v Speaker 1>it from peripherally, but never from the inside. It's it's amazing.

1142
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:10.480
<v Speaker 1>It's this whole culture and everything magical in the world

1143
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:14.039
<v Speaker 1>just comes from ballroom. Yes, and everyone will like try

1144
00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:15.800
<v Speaker 1>and fight tooth and nail and say that's not true.

1145
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. And relatedly, because I don't know how we

1146
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.519
<v Speaker 2>got into this wonderful well, no that you brought it

1147
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:23.239
<v Speaker 2>up but I'm thinking about hip hop culture because I'm like,

1148
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:25.880
<v Speaker 2>with a hip hop culture, we have ciphers. Right, you

1149
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:27.800
<v Speaker 2>get in you know, you get in a circle when

1150
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>you battle, and the best one wins. Right. This is

1151
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:33.360
<v Speaker 2>like that idea that we know what it's like to

1152
00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:35.920
<v Speaker 2>be in a battle. We know what it's like to battle.

1153
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:39.920
<v Speaker 2>You know. There's somebody's said about that that is triumphant

1154
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:40.679
<v Speaker 2>about us.

1155
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.199
<v Speaker 1>And one thing I love about gay rappers, gay male

1156
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:51.840
<v Speaker 1>rappers in particular, is when they rap about men the

1157
00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:54.800
<v Speaker 1>way their straight counterparts rap about women.

1158
00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:00.840
<v Speaker 2>The world uncomfortable. It makes the world. That's why it

1159
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:02.920
<v Speaker 2>makes the world so uncomfortable. You know. There's a poem

1160
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:07.199
<v Speaker 2>and Knucklehead where I tried to It's funny because I

1161
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:10.440
<v Speaker 2>do remember writing this poem. But I but once I

1162
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:12.280
<v Speaker 2>started writing Knucklehead, I knew that I wanted to play

1163
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:14.199
<v Speaker 2>on the imagery a little bit and the metaphor. But

1164
00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.199
<v Speaker 2>one of the last poems and Knucklehead is called we

1165
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:21.400
<v Speaker 2>made It colon Love so right, so it could be

1166
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 2>read as we made love. It could also be read

1167
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:26.760
<v Speaker 2>as well, we made it love. Like there's a bunch

1168
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:30.960
<v Speaker 2>of different things, and so within the imagery is you know,

1169
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:33.280
<v Speaker 2>two black men, Me and my husband were floating in

1170
00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:36.239
<v Speaker 2>the skies, and then all of a sudden there's you know,

1171
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:39.559
<v Speaker 2>things blowing in the breeze, and then there's a lifting

1172
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.000
<v Speaker 2>of public and private parts. And then I'll give you

1173
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.079
<v Speaker 2>this nugget because I think this is a wonderful Easter egg.

1174
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.599
<v Speaker 2>Because I'm a lyricist, I believe in embedding things and poems,

1175
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:51.719
<v Speaker 2>and so there's a stanza in that poem that's called

1176
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.599
<v Speaker 2>we Made It Love, and I know his thing. I

1177
00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:57.320
<v Speaker 2>know that honestly, like very few people will get this

1178
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.320
<v Speaker 2>unless I start saying this exists, or they might. But

1179
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:03.880
<v Speaker 2>in the one two I guess it'd be the third stanza.

1180
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:08.119
<v Speaker 2>And we made Love, I say, where our breath became

1181
00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:11.920
<v Speaker 2>versus written into the breeze, and so we hang glided

1182
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:15.880
<v Speaker 2>across the tops of tall trees, suspending ourselves high above

1183
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:18.559
<v Speaker 2>the bottom of sturdy bridges that were built on nothing

1184
00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:22.199
<v Speaker 2>but trust alone. In that stanza, I use verse top bottom.

1185
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.480
<v Speaker 1>I can't with you. Oh my god, I love that.

1186
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:33.519
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I just want to know who might

1187
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:35.760
<v Speaker 2>catch this. I'm just so kind of curious. And also

1188
00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:38.639
<v Speaker 2>in how the Bully Man became a poet, a lot

1189
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:41.199
<v Speaker 2>of the white teachers, the white women teachers. They're named

1190
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:43.599
<v Speaker 2>after the Golden Girls, So it's like miss Born.

1191
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:46.960
<v Speaker 1>And you're Golden Girls fan to see.

1192
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:48.639
<v Speaker 2>That's what I mean. Like that, I just wanted to

1193
00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:50.719
<v Speaker 2>make sure that, like, in addition to writing this, but

1194
00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, yo, there are these little things and i

1195
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.079
<v Speaker 2>just want to assert so that certain kind of readers

1196
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:55.519
<v Speaker 2>might be.

1197
00:57:55.400 --> 00:58:00.119
<v Speaker 1>Like, I love that. So you clever them.

1198
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Trying to make an engaging for the readers.

1199
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:08.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, well, doctor Tony, Yes, great, I could sit

1200
00:58:08.559 --> 00:58:09.800
<v Speaker 1>and talk to you forever.

1201
00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:12.519
<v Speaker 2>That means we have the more to converse about this.

1202
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Got exactly. Oh, I've already decided this is not the

1203
00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:16.679
<v Speaker 1>last time we're gonna sit and have a chitch.

1204
00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:17.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1205
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:21.039
<v Speaker 1>So where is the best place? What's your favorite place

1206
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:22.960
<v Speaker 1>for people to go and purchase your work?

1207
00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a really great question. I am a huge

1208
00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:28.039
<v Speaker 2>fan of indie bookstores. This is the truth. I love them,

1209
00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:30.119
<v Speaker 2>and so I would highly recommend that if you have

1210
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:33.079
<v Speaker 2>access to a local bookstore, feel free to stop. Buy

1211
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:35.840
<v Speaker 2>yours go to ww dot bookshop dot org. But if

1212
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:38.000
<v Speaker 2>you're just looking for general ways to buy my book,

1213
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:40.440
<v Speaker 2>go to my website. Go to Tony Keith Junior dot com.

1214
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:41.920
<v Speaker 2>You click on the link for my books and it

1215
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:45.000
<v Speaker 2>will take you to all your options for online retailers.

1216
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:47.360
<v Speaker 2>We can do Barns and Nobles of course as Amazon,

1217
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:49.880
<v Speaker 2>and you can also get it at your a lot

1218
00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:53.960
<v Speaker 2>of local public local like neighborhood public libraries. You can

1219
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 2>get it Enkindle. It's available in audiobook and yeah, so

1220
00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:00.400
<v Speaker 2>those are love it?

1221
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:02.079
<v Speaker 1>I love it? And where can we follow you?

1222
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:06.800
<v Speaker 2>You can follow me at Tony Keith Junior on all things. Actually,

1223
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm really only on Instagram my Twitter, I don wanna

1224
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.719
<v Speaker 2>use that. It's not even Twitter. Facebook is really only

1225
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:17.280
<v Speaker 2>for like my older family members. But anyway, but I'm

1226
00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:18.280
<v Speaker 2>Instagram for sure.

1227
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:21.639
<v Speaker 1>Definitely. We're gonna put all of that into the notes

1228
00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:25.079
<v Speaker 1>of this episode. Tony Keith Jr. Thank you so much

1229
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:26.119
<v Speaker 1>for sitting and sharing.

1230
00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I've had such a blast hanging out with you today.

1231
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:31.679
<v Speaker 2>I got nothing of you up next.

1232
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, all right, all right, thank you so much,

1233
00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Please take care. Full Circle is a Never

1234
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Skurreed Productions podcast hosted by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal,

1235
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:46.440
<v Speaker 1>produced and edited by Never Scured Executive Produced by Charles

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<v Speaker 1>Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal. Our theme in music is

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<v Speaker 1>by the jingle Berries. All names, pictures, music, audio, and

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<v Speaker 1>video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of their

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<v Speaker 1>respective copyright holders.