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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
Speaker 2: The Nightstalker, Bck.
Speaker 3: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 3: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 3: your host journalist and author.
Speaker 2: Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 7: In an incredible six year investigation, true crime writer and
Speaker 7: investigative journalist David mclath tells the unbelievable story of one
Speaker 7: of the most prolific predators in American history. Wayne Chapman,
Speaker 7: admitted to abusing one hundred children over an eight year
Speaker 7: span from sixty seven to seventy six. What the world
Speaker 7: could never have known is that Chapman did not act alone.
Speaker 7: He worked in concert with other serial predators. Unbeknownst to
Speaker 7: parents and law enforcement, Chapman was suspected in multiple child
Speaker 7: murders and was a completely fixated abuser. McGrath lives a
Speaker 7: veil on Wayne Chapman and a child sex ring that
Speaker 7: operated in the area at the time. In this incredible
Speaker 7: true story. The book that were featuring this evening is
Speaker 7: Monster The Life and Crimes of Wayne Chapman, with my
Speaker 7: special guest journalist and author David McGrath. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 7: and thank you for this interview. David McGrath.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Dan, Thank you for giving me
Speaker 4: the opportunity to shed some light on a story that's
Speaker 4: outside of our painful people, incredibly underreported social Thank you.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much. This is in an extraordinary tale,
Speaker 7: extraordinary investigation. Let's get to how you came to this.
Speaker 7: You write that one night you were rough watching TV
Speaker 7: and you saw a documentary on HBO entitled Have You
Speaker 7: Seen Andy? By Melanie Perkins mcgloblin. Tell us what this
Speaker 7: documentary did for you, what it triggered, and what was
Speaker 7: its content? Tell us about this event.
Speaker 4: Sure, I had grown up in the Boston area, and
Speaker 4: I had always been interested in books and going to
Speaker 4: the library every day, and that was sort of my
Speaker 4: seven and you know, a sort of abusive household, which
Speaker 4: is not uncommon for the time. And I always wanted
Speaker 4: to do a book, and like most authors, my my
Speaker 4: main problem was what was what suffect would I do
Speaker 4: it on?
Speaker 7: You know?
Speaker 4: And I saw this documentary late at night during the
Speaker 4: night when I was battling a brutal head cold, one
Speaker 4: of those you know, head and advice can't sleep kind
Speaker 4: of night. My wife was pregnant, so she was having
Speaker 4: a rough time getting asleep, and we were both just
Speaker 4: kind of await And you know, I saw the documentary
Speaker 4: that Melanie Perkins had made about her friend Andy, and
Speaker 4: you know, this young boy disappeared from a pool and Laurens, Massachusetts,
Speaker 4: which was, you know, twenty five thirty minutes from where
Speaker 4: I grew up. You know, this man who was the
Speaker 4: main suspect in the case had also been the main
Speaker 4: suspect and some other disappearances that were a little closer
Speaker 4: to home for me, and you know, I was just
Speaker 4: struck down by this man's you know, it was really
Speaker 4: his booking photo. I couldn't get past the fact of
Speaker 4: his vacant sort of look, just the the out or
Speaker 4: lack of humanity in this man's face. And I couldn't
Speaker 4: get over it. You know, I fell asleep around four
Speaker 4: thirty five that morning. I was up, you know, very
Speaker 4: early googling, uh, you know, pictures of this man. And
Speaker 4: you know, at first day, I just said to myself,
Speaker 4: you know, find out everything that you can know that's
Speaker 4: to be known about this man. And you know that
Speaker 4: sort of set off that very day too. And I
Speaker 4: had no idea that I would ever put a word,
Speaker 4: you know, on paper about anything to do with Wayne Chapman.
Speaker 4: But I knew that any human beings whoever interacted with
Speaker 4: him had any sort of insight into him. You know,
Speaker 4: I needed to know. And I you know, these are
Speaker 4: while your show is so popular and true crime shows,
Speaker 4: they're often you know, the most popular podcasts, you know,
Speaker 4: on Apple or wherever is really because people need to
Speaker 4: know why. I think that's assassination with kids like this,
Speaker 4: just because they just need to know why. And I'm
Speaker 4: no different. I just needed to know why and how
Speaker 4: and how Wayne Chapman came to be. And you know,
Speaker 4: that was twenty thirteen, and here we are, you know,
Speaker 4: in late twenty twenty one, and you know, the book's
Speaker 4: ready to be to come out and I still't feel like,
Speaker 4: damn this, There is so much more to know. But
Speaker 4: that's the genesis of this book.
Speaker 7: You write that once you knew you had to write
Speaker 7: this book, once you felt compelled, you had to start
Speaker 7: at the very beginning, and you started in Jamestown, New York,
Speaker 7: and visited Wayne Chapman's childhood home. What did you find
Speaker 7: out about Wayne Chapman and his childhood Tell.
Speaker 2: Us what you found well.
Speaker 4: I initially took off to Jamestown in late twenty thirteen
Speaker 4: and worked with a woman at the Historical Society named
Speaker 4: Afley Centrik, who was incredibly helpful pointing me in the
Speaker 4: right direction. And you know, when I got there, I
Speaker 4: had grown up in the city, you know, and housing
Speaker 4: projects not far in Sunray Park in Boston. I had
Speaker 4: never really been to upstate New north and I found
Speaker 4: it to be a town that, you know, nothing really
Speaker 4: happened in, you know. I would ask people on the street,
Speaker 4: you know, what happens here in Jamestown, and the most
Speaker 4: prevailing news it was nothing. It's just a random town that,
Speaker 4: you know, even the people who live here, it's completely forgettable.
Speaker 4: But you know, I had the preconceived notion that Chapman
Speaker 4: would come from some sort of you know, incestuous, you know,
Speaker 4: Texas Temsaw massacre type family, you know, and that really
Speaker 4: wasn't the case. Much like myself, his father was a
Speaker 4: military man who had been injured in Guadalcanal and had
Speaker 4: fought valiantly and been recognized for that by in the
Speaker 4: United States and Marine Corps. His father was a member
Speaker 4: of the First Marine Division, which my father was a
Speaker 4: member of, So you know, there was nothing in his
Speaker 4: background with his parents that would indicate that he was
Speaker 4: ever sexually abused. Wayne Chapman was the first born son
Speaker 4: to our her and Elizabeth's Chapman. Elizabeth was a church
Speaker 4: going lady who came from a good family who were
Speaker 4: well known in town. Both the parents did have some issues.
Speaker 7: With alcohol and drugs.
Speaker 4: The mother was into chills sleeping kills specifically, and the
Speaker 4: brothers would talk about that later as her being sort
Speaker 4: of disengaged from the family and ours. There was a
Speaker 4: drinker who spent a lot of his days at the
Speaker 4: local VSW post around other veterans from World War Two.
Speaker 4: Would often make his boys, you know, sit in the
Speaker 4: car and wait while he got drunk all day. But
Speaker 4: there were again, there was nothing I could find, and
Speaker 4: other people you know, who I respect in this investigation
Speaker 4: believe that Wayne Chapman was absolutely sexually abused. And while
Speaker 4: I don't discount that, I could never coroborate that, so
Speaker 4: I didn't put that in the book. What I did
Speaker 4: find is that Wayne was born in nineteen forty seven.
Speaker 4: His parents were married not too soon after, so it
Speaker 4: was sort of a shotgun wedding. And you know, Wayne
Speaker 4: started defending really young. I mean four or five years old.
Speaker 4: He's already touching little boys in the classroom. He's already
Speaker 4: sort of getting little boys into the woods and doing
Speaker 4: his best to seduce other young children. He's you know,
Speaker 4: asking kids about their bodies. He's getting involved in pornography,
Speaker 4: finding his father's playboys and hustler magazines and showing them
Speaker 4: around the neighborhood to neighbors. Sort Of right off the bat,
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman is already thinking down the lines of sexual
Speaker 4: sort of behavior that you know, most children, you know,
Speaker 4: ninety nine point nine defended children have no idea what
Speaker 4: that's even about, you know. So he was exposed to
Speaker 4: that very young, and he would often state that some
Speaker 4: classmates of his had sort of got him in the
Speaker 4: woods and made him undressed, and that sort of got
Speaker 4: him thinking along that track. But I could never cooperate
Speaker 4: that ever either. You know, he came from his relatively
Speaker 4: normal family. His father was you know, he organized neighborhood
Speaker 4: watches He was a big member of the veteran community
Speaker 4: in Jamestown. He was very active in the church. His
Speaker 4: father was the president of the congregation up there. At
Speaker 4: one point, Wayne was an Authar boy. He was named
Speaker 4: the Youth of the Year in nineteen sixty four by
Speaker 4: his pastor. He was a perfect attendance and Sunday school
Speaker 4: type of guy. But what Waye could have never known
Speaker 4: was that his parents did have some concerns over his
Speaker 4: behavior as it related to sexual relations with his classmates.
Speaker 4: He was taking animals into the woods and starving cats,
Speaker 4: hanging them from trees. He was wetting the bed, and
Speaker 4: his father was getting, you know, extremely angry that when
Speaker 4: he was home off the road from his job as
Speaker 4: a long haul trucker, Wayne would often be up at
Speaker 4: night because he pied the bed, didn't you know. He's
Speaker 4: pointed to a specific situation later on where his father
Speaker 4: threw him out in the snow, And anybody who knows
Speaker 4: anything about that state of New York knows that, you know,
Speaker 4: it snows out there in July. I mean it's brutal
Speaker 4: up there.
Speaker 5: And.
Speaker 4: His father would make him stand in snowpiles in the
Speaker 4: middle of the winter naked you know. And again, you know,
Speaker 4: my preconceived notion was that I was going to find
Speaker 4: that Wayne Chaplin was nurtured to be one of the
Speaker 4: worst pedophiles in American history, and I could just never
Speaker 4: cooperate that Dan, And in my opinion, you know, Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman was a born pedophile. It was a sexual preference
Speaker 4: for young children, and that started at a very young age.
Speaker 4: And it was like a snowball as it is, it
Speaker 4: just starts to manifesting the fantasy's happened. He acts out
Speaker 4: on them, and they just get worse and mores. His
Speaker 4: time goes on.
Speaker 7: Dan tell us about so his high school life, like
Speaker 7: what was it characterized by? What was his Was he
Speaker 7: an intelligent guy? Was he a sociable guy. Did he
Speaker 7: have a lot of friends? Was he the athletic?
Speaker 4: What was his short So Chapman had absolutely no friends.
Speaker 4: In fact, he paid no attention to his personal hygiene,
Speaker 4: which was manifest lator in life with losing jobs and
Speaker 4: actually people, you know, being able to iv him through
Speaker 4: his poor hygiene. But the classmates that I could speak
Speaker 4: to from the late nineteen sixties who were still around,
Speaker 4: nobody remembered Wayne Chapman. They knew that they had a
Speaker 4: man who came from their high school, from their town
Speaker 4: who was a suspect in multiple child murderers, and it
Speaker 4: was with a child molester. But nobody could tell me
Speaker 4: anything about Wayne Chapman. Nobody knew him because brothers. It
Speaker 4: was a little different, and he could have three brothers
Speaker 4: that came along who you know, grew up in the
Speaker 4: same household, same father, same parents, didn't go on to
Speaker 4: molest children. So Waene Chapman was, you know, he was
Speaker 4: somebody who was completely forgettable outside of the bad hygiene
Speaker 4: and the sort of vacant look that he had that
Speaker 4: people remembered forever and ever. The most common thread with
Speaker 4: anybody who's ever met Wayne Chapman that I was able
Speaker 4: to speak to for this book, whether it be detectives,
Speaker 4: other offenders, medical staff at statemental hospitals, or people who
Speaker 4: knew him in Jamestown, would tell you that the guy
Speaker 4: just was not there. He was a black hole. He
Speaker 4: was completely vacant in his eyes. He was completely sick
Speaker 4: faded from a very young age and one thing which
Speaker 4: was stocking and getting children isolated so he'd commit sexual assault.
Speaker 4: And that was he was a pre programmed machine. Often
Speaker 4: most pedophiles are, you know, they're circumstantial pedophiles where if
Speaker 4: they have the opportunity to do it. You know, Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman was a precedential pedophile and from a young age
Speaker 4: that manifested and he had no social life. He was
Speaker 4: not involved in sports. His father was the big car guy.
Speaker 4: He would often, you know, bring his vehicle out into
Speaker 4: the parking lot and sort of do car shows. Outside
Speaker 4: of these I was in Jamestown and one would have
Speaker 4: where they grew up, which was a quiet street, very
Speaker 4: close neighbors. He would be tinkering with that car all day.
Speaker 4: Wayne never had any interest in working with his father,
Speaker 4: and like most boys do, and and you know, by
Speaker 4: fifteen sixteen, Wayne was already crossing into the Canadian border
Speaker 4: to indulge in CD sect shops and child pornography. He
Speaker 4: was already very big into the pornography trade that was
Speaker 4: sort of underground in Buffalo, in Toronto. And you know,
Speaker 4: I was able to collaborate a little bit of that
Speaker 4: with people up in Jamestown. You know, I had a
Speaker 4: journal and a journalism professor once who told me, you know,
Speaker 4: it's the best way to get information is to go
Speaker 4: out there and talk to people on the street. If
Speaker 4: it's a one on one conversation, people are apt to
Speaker 4: tell you much more. Emails have pay per trails, text
Speaker 4: messages have pay per trails. The conversation that you have
Speaker 4: with people on the street is only known to the
Speaker 4: people who were there, And that turned out to be
Speaker 4: extremely fruitful for me because people talked to me a
Speaker 4: lot about the general vibe of that area in the
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties is that he could really indulge in child
Speaker 4: pornography over the border in Canada, and Chapman later in
Speaker 4: life would absolutely collaborate that and say he was part
Speaker 4: at that burdening, you know, child pornography consumption and production,
Speaker 4: very early in life in Canada, very close to where
Speaker 4: he grew up. So that's already where he was sixty
Speaker 4: eight at Dan When.
Speaker 7: Does he run a foul of a law? You say,
Speaker 7: we quit school when he was sixteen, and then you
Speaker 7: say he's crossing over the border. He's he's at the
Speaker 7: very lower rung of this pornography child pornography distribution. When
Speaker 7: does he run a flower over law? What happens when
Speaker 7: he's eighteen, So nineteen.
Speaker 4: Sixty seven, he's in Pennsylvania. And initially in this investigation, Dan,
Speaker 4: I thought that this guy would wake up in the
Speaker 4: morning and just say a dive date and his head there.
Speaker 4: But you know, as I've learned later on, as the
Speaker 4: year has gone by into my work with Chapman, is
Speaker 4: that nothing was by accident. And I hope your audience
Speaker 4: and the fans out if they read the book and
Speaker 4: listen to this, that nothing that happens here is by accident.
Speaker 4: Chapman must have known somebody in Pennsylvania. He must have
Speaker 4: he must have had some sort of connection to the
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania area in Oil City specifically, because his first offense
Speaker 4: happens in nineteen sixty seven, and he met a boy
Speaker 4: the day prior, and he's already beginning to begin with
Speaker 4: his ruses, you know, the lost God, the promising of work.
Speaker 4: And you know, for whatever reason, he doesn't actually assault
Speaker 4: the boy the day that he meets him. My suspicion
Speaker 4: is that he was stalking him. He Chapman would pick
Speaker 4: out a victim, none of these victims or by accident,
Speaker 4: and he would sixth date on that victim, and he
Speaker 4: would figure out a way to isolate that boy away
Speaker 4: from his friend group. He tells a little boy that
Speaker 4: in August, the sixties out, and he tells a little boy, hey, listen,
Speaker 4: meet me here tomorrow. I have a paper out, you know,
Speaker 4: and you'll get your work and so you can make
Speaker 4: some money. So Chatman stayed there overnight. He actually sleeps
Speaker 4: very close to where he ends up s actually stopping
Speaker 4: the boy in the woods in real city. And August night,
Speaker 4: you know, Wayne Chatman is sleeping in his van overnight
Speaker 4: with no ac so he's can rape a boy in
Speaker 4: the morning anyways, So he keeps the boy into the woods.
Speaker 4: You know, he's asking from pointed sexual questions. At some point,
Speaker 4: you know, this boy realizes, you know, there's no job.
Speaker 4: You know, it's gonna be no job interview. Chapman ends
Speaker 4: up he asked the little boys and pointed sexual questions
Speaker 4: and that's enough to get him a corruption charge on
Speaker 4: the madels of minors, and the boy ends up running
Speaker 4: away contacting police. Chaman doesn't even make an attempt to
Speaker 4: declaim that he didn't do anything. At that point in
Speaker 4: his life, he was very open with police. And you know,
Speaker 4: I don't know because then and you know, had an
Speaker 4: IQ sometimes with the top out at around eighty if
Speaker 4: he just couldn't grasp the seriousness of the crimes, because
Speaker 4: in sixty seven, you know, he ends up skating on that.
Speaker 4: In nineteen seventy one, he's back in Pennsylvania, and this
Speaker 4: time he has a teen little boy in Smithport, which
Speaker 4: is not too far away. It's less than an hour
Speaker 4: away from Monos City. You know, again, I don't think
Speaker 4: it's by accident that he ends up in Smith's Port,
Speaker 4: and he had to have had some connection that area
Speaker 4: and seen the boy at a certain point. This time,
Speaker 4: he took the boy out to the wooded area and
Speaker 4: he has his camera with him. So I think at
Speaker 4: this point in nineteen seventy one, not only is Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman molesting little boys, but he's also a low level
Speaker 4: child pornography producer. Because with now the camera comes into
Speaker 4: it where he's treating peaches of boys, boys are making
Speaker 4: statements to police. You know, he gets sexual to assault
Speaker 4: me and he was taking pitchs is at the same time,
Speaker 4: and aneteen seventy one assault, he ends up actually going
Speaker 4: all the way with this assault, and you know, the
Speaker 4: little boy ends up contacting police and describing the vehicle
Speaker 4: that Wayne Chapman was in again. Wayne Fatman is is
Speaker 4: very open with police, and he ends up getting there
Speaker 4: one two year sentence and he ends up doing one
Speaker 4: year and five months in the workhouse. Chapman's worked with
Speaker 4: death in that workhouse. He's the only sex offender in
Speaker 4: the book. I have a picture of the handwritten register
Speaker 4: when Wayne Chatman entered the workhouse. In He's in there
Speaker 4: with people who, you know, assaulting batteries, you know, people
Speaker 4: who have not paid their child support. Of all the
Speaker 4: pages that I could find, Wayne Chatman was the only
Speaker 4: person who's the good of sex then. So it didn't
Speaker 4: go well for him in there, and he had tactic
Speaker 4: guys and they told him let him go out just straight,
Speaker 4: you know, Scott messing around with little kids, you know,
Speaker 4: get married, show the world that you can live like
Speaker 4: a normal person, because this isn't working for you. Chapman's
Speaker 4: called a lot of names in the work house. He's
Speaker 4: you know, old schools sort of movie like prison where
Speaker 4: you're printing license plates and moving rocks. And he doesn't
Speaker 4: like it. And you know, for him, you know, somebody
Speaker 4: as weak as him in prison is not a good
Speaker 4: place for him. In late nineteen sixties. They didn't have
Speaker 4: a special management in the name. You know, you were
Speaker 4: in there and you were in the general population, and
Speaker 4: it is going to be hard for you even then
Speaker 4: as a sex offender can.
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Speaker 7: Now I was in the workhouse. He realizes now that
Speaker 7: this is the kind of place he doesn't want to be.
Speaker 7: He gets out. Does he take this guard's advice? And
Speaker 7: if he does, what happens? Yeah?
Speaker 4: So he does, and he gets married to a woman
Speaker 4: named Alice who is forty three years allt bit the time,
Speaker 4: and they end up in Florida for a very short
Speaker 4: period of time. And of course, Wayne Chapman, you know,
Speaker 4: had no inferterent hunter sexual relationships with women. He was
Speaker 4: a six vated pedophile who is homosexual. And you know,
Speaker 4: the main selling point with Alice is that she has
Speaker 4: two sons eleven and fourteen years old, who Wayne Chapman
Speaker 4: wanted to test himself to see if he could live
Speaker 4: amongst children, while you know, I'm not committing the senses,
Speaker 4: and I'm not sure that Alice any idea Jeff Truce
Speaker 4: who was inviting into her house, because it wasn't long
Speaker 4: before Wayne sexually assaulted both boys. The boys didn't obviously
Speaker 4: like Wayne. They didn't believe that, you know, this guy
Speaker 4: was a good role model or good stepfather, as you
Speaker 4: would imagine. And things don't really go well for Wayne
Speaker 4: down in Florida, and the boys never came forward. There
Speaker 4: was no police reports ever filed. There was no police
Speaker 4: report ever filed by the mother. Wayne Choman himself admitted
Speaker 4: later on to molesting both of the boys, and incredibly enough,
Speaker 4: Dan you know his late as twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,
Speaker 4: Alice still kept in touch with Wayne and it's one
Speaker 4: of those things that's a convoluted story with a million
Speaker 4: convoluted sci fi stories in it here. And I could
Speaker 4: never quite figure out why Alice continued to support Wayne
Speaker 4: you through, you know, five decades after he had admitted
Speaker 4: readily that he molested her to sons. It's just one
Speaker 4: of those things in the story where I just I'll
Speaker 4: never quite get a grasp on on just what was
Speaker 4: going on there, and as far as I could find,
Speaker 4: and I worked hard, you know, to find more victims
Speaker 4: in Florida, I couldn't find any missing boys during that
Speaker 4: time reign and any other victims outside of the two boys.
Speaker 4: So his small short time in Florida comes to an
Speaker 4: end and he's back up in early nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 4: He's he's back the King's count and thinking about his
Speaker 4: next move. But even mains matters throughout his life. Gueen
Speaker 4: Chapman's never doctorvorced and he was considered on paper anyway
Speaker 4: to the Massachusetts Department of Corrections as as a married
Speaker 4: man did.
Speaker 7: Now in your book, you talk about Providence and you
Speaker 7: talk about some crimes starting in Labor Day weekend nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy five. Is what are some of these crimes, and
Speaker 7: what is it about these crimes that you've included them here?
Speaker 7: And their connection to Wayne Chapman.
Speaker 4: Sure, well, the thing was Wayne Chapman. There's two things
Speaker 4: that I really needed to figure out in this book.
Speaker 4: Was just how a man from upstate New York Dan
Speaker 4: with no connection to Rhode Island, which is, you know,
Speaker 4: five hundred miles away, how he ends up there. You know,
Speaker 4: at first I thought maybe this was you know, again
Speaker 4: he's throwing you know, he's thrown dots.
Speaker 7: At the map.
Speaker 4: But Wayne Chapman had some connection to Providence, Rhode Island
Speaker 4: in the New England area. Then I believe the connection
Speaker 4: was is that Providence was a hub DAN for the
Speaker 4: production of child pornogracy. And in fact, to this very day,
Speaker 4: if you walk around the city of Providence, you will
Speaker 4: find the most ce sort of sets ups that exist
Speaker 4: on almost every street corner. And it all ties back
Speaker 4: to a man who is part of a mob in
Speaker 4: those days called Ken Guarino, and he's stopp a company
Speaker 4: in the late seventies called Capital Video, and that was
Speaker 4: sort of the early beginnings of CD steck shops in
Speaker 4: the city of Providence that had existed only in the
Speaker 4: gay underground at the time, so I believe that was
Speaker 4: really where Chapman got connected to the city of Providence
Speaker 4: and why he ended up living some five minutes from
Speaker 4: where I sit right now. Anyways, there's some crimes when
Speaker 4: Chapman got here, I believe in late nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 4: although he was quite quiet for a long time, the
Speaker 4: missing boys began almost immediately, and the connection to somebody
Speaker 4: like the nineteen seventy five crime was Wayne Chapman had
Speaker 4: good friends in the state of Meed, which is a
Speaker 4: northern state closer to you, but still part of the
Speaker 4: New England sort of cluster here, and a boy went
Speaker 4: missing in nineteen seventy five named Kurt Newton. And Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman had taught to Albert Mintz, who was a very
Speaker 4: very he in this book, with very clear memories of
Speaker 4: everything that had happened decades ago. And he had told
Speaker 4: me about a time when Wayne Chapman explained to him
Speaker 4: by a boy that he took in name, and he
Speaker 4: explained the waterfall that he took the boy at, and
Speaker 4: the boy was at a campground, and just like every
Speaker 4: other part of this book, Dan I went up there
Speaker 4: and I needed to walk the streets and see the
Speaker 4: areas and where Wayne Chapman described he took this little
Speaker 4: boy with a waterfall that was some three hundred yards
Speaker 4: from the campground where Can't Kurt new and disappeared and
Speaker 4: they never found his body, They never found the shred
Speaker 4: of him stay just this tricycle. It remains unsolved to
Speaker 4: this day. And it just struck me. Dan I put
Speaker 4: it in the book, had I not gone there and
Speaker 4: seen the.
Speaker 7: Sight.
Speaker 4: And Chapman he lived these crimes forever and ever, and
Speaker 4: he remembered every last bit of every place that he
Speaker 4: took a boy, and that would become important as time
Speaker 4: went on. And it just struck me, as I wrote
Speaker 4: in booked in that when I went to that area,
Speaker 4: I mean, it was just from the police report to
Speaker 4: what my eyes were seeing was just absolutely perfect in
Speaker 4: the level of detail. And Chapman was not in the
Speaker 4: business of admitting to crimes that he didn't do. He
Speaker 4: was not a bright man. Eighty was where his IQ
Speaker 4: talked out. He was not a master criminal. He was
Speaker 4: not the type of guy who was going to admit
Speaker 4: to crimes to throw police off. He didn't have that
Speaker 4: type of mental capability. So I think that the Kurt
Speaker 4: Newton disappearance, Wayne Chatman very well may have confessed to that,
Speaker 4: and much like the other cases, incredibly enough, it's just
Speaker 4: not enough evidence to ever tie him to physically.
Speaker 7: You talk about the same for Douglas Chapman from Alfred
Speaker 7: Game as well, and you get to Alee Savoy, a
Speaker 7: ten year old in Lavie, Massachusetts, and again Levere location
Speaker 7: as well, isn't.
Speaker 4: It yeple Savoy disappears in April of nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 4: victimology of a man like Wayne Chapman and Nathaniel bar Jona,
Speaker 4: very closely dark features, olive skin. Lisa Voy sharing suits
Speaker 4: at the racetrack Suffolk Downs, which exists in Revere, two
Speaker 4: miles away from where the Massachusetts State Police and the
Speaker 4: FBI busted incredibly large sex ring where boys between the
Speaker 4: ages of eight and seventeen were being sold to sex
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy seven. The police reports that they believe
Speaker 4: that the sex ring had been going on since the
Speaker 4: late nineteen sixties. So you're talking about a ring that's
Speaker 4: maybe ten years old, and you know the Savoy story,
Speaker 4: much like Lewisman, it's just not a story that is
Speaker 4: ever covered anywhere in any depths, and nothing of this
Speaker 4: boy was never found, not a shoe, not a not
Speaker 4: a shirt, anything. And you know, the public outcry for
Speaker 4: this case is just I mean, it's just buried. You know,
Speaker 4: it's nowhere. And I included this Savoy disappearance in the
Speaker 4: book because I think it's an important snapshot of the time.
Speaker 4: This is what was happening in the nineteen seventies in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: Boys were disappearing at an incredible rate, and you had
Speaker 4: men like Miss Daniel Barjona, Wayne Chapman, Charles Pearce is
Speaker 4: a Necroceliac carnival worker who was in and out of
Speaker 4: town all the time we had grown up here. They
Speaker 4: were acting together, and then you have this sex ring
Speaker 4: that's operating two point four miles away somewhere least avoid
Speaker 4: disappears off the face of the earth forever. And I
Speaker 4: think it's an interesting snapshot of the time. But I
Speaker 4: could never find any evidence to link Li Savoy to
Speaker 4: the Revere of deck Spring or make Dayne Statman or Barjona.
Speaker 4: I think it's interesting to note that this is what
Speaker 4: was happening in the town in just a month earlier, Dan,
Speaker 4: at Suffolk Downs, a little boy was sexually assaulted right
Speaker 4: on the right on the grounds of the racetrack. He
Speaker 4: was pulled into a bathroom hand over his mouth, and
Speaker 4: they tried, they tried to take that child and abduct
Speaker 4: that child, but he was able to get away. So
Speaker 4: it was happening all the time, Dan, And it's just
Speaker 4: it's just interesting how it's lost to history now and
Speaker 4: it's lost just the people who lived through it.
Speaker 7: You mentioned Nathaniel Barjona, and that's not his real name.
Speaker 7: Tell us his real name, and then tell us about
Speaker 7: Nathaniel Barjona.
Speaker 4: Barjonah was different than Chapman because he was a completely
Speaker 4: sadistic who got off on terrorizing his victims. Frankly, and
Speaker 4: it was different than Chapman. This guy was smart. He
Speaker 4: was a master psychopath who could I mean some of
Speaker 4: the feasts that he pulled off, manipulating children and many
Speaker 4: creating victims. It was just incredible.
Speaker 2: Dan.
Speaker 4: He was born David Brown in nineteen fifty seven Worcester,
Speaker 4: which is a western part of the state. Barjona was
Speaker 4: seven years old. He choked to class me twelve years old.
Speaker 4: He tried to kill two little boys in a cemetery
Speaker 4: who had been picking on him in the neighborhood. He
Speaker 4: was known as sort of their neighborhood weird kid. Came
Speaker 4: from a decent family, you know. His father and his
Speaker 4: mother voted on him as his father would eventually become
Speaker 4: a big distance but his mother, until the day she died,
Speaker 4: really enabled him. His brother and his sister went on
Speaker 4: to be defense contractors who owned multiple properties in different states.
Speaker 4: They were very successful people. They often thought that miss
Speaker 4: Aniel Barjona David Brown was switched at birth. They really
Speaker 4: didn't believe that he was their brother. He began a
Speaker 4: sending set a young man just like Wayne Chapman and
Speaker 4: those two. You know, listen this the way these two
Speaker 4: connected with each other is up for discussion. I know
Speaker 4: that a PhD named John Asby who I don't in
Speaker 4: any way. She performed discount his writing. He wrote the
Speaker 4: Definitive series on Barjona, and it was always his assertion
Speaker 4: that Barjona and Wayne Chapman met Stocking Kids together sometime
Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies. I could never collaborate satisfact, you know,
Speaker 4: I looking for a picture or some sort of writing
Speaker 4: between the two which could collaborate that so I could
Speaker 4: put it in the book, but I just could never
Speaker 4: find that Dan. But what I could find was Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman had admitted to committing crimes in miss Andrew Barjona's
Speaker 4: town of Webstern, Massachusetts. They both used the same mo
Speaker 4: which was they just as police officers. And those two
Speaker 4: had been writing letters back and forth well before Bridgewater.
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm gonna we're jumping ahead here, and
Speaker 4: they actually stayed contact with each other. When Barjona was
Speaker 4: released from Bridgewater in nineteen ninety one and went to
Speaker 4: Great Falls in Montana, they still too, stayed in contact
Speaker 4: with each other right up until the end of Barjona's
Speaker 4: life in two thousand and eight. And I do believe
Speaker 4: that there was a major connection between the two before prison,
Speaker 4: and they operated together.
Speaker 7: Let's let's get to what happens to Barjona and his
Speaker 7: sentence and a sexually dangerous designation, and you can explain
Speaker 7: that that's it's a unique Massachusetts edict.
Speaker 4: So nineteen seventy seven, Barjoni had his kids coming out
Speaker 4: of a movie theater and shoes by the Massachusetts he
Speaker 4: meets the boys nearly to death. It was to death,
Speaker 4: and he dumped one one body test another body in
Speaker 4: the trunk of the vehicle, which was his mother's vehicle.
Speaker 4: The little boy who we dunked came back to and
Speaker 4: called the police and was able to get an accurate
Speaker 4: description of the vehicle. Bar Jonah was already known to police.
Speaker 4: Just a week after graduating high school, Dan he drives
Speaker 4: up to Connecticut shakes a little girl who he believed
Speaker 4: to be a little boy who had a short haircut.
Speaker 4: Once he realized that he had a little boy, he
Speaker 4: beat that little girl so bad that she desiccated. She
Speaker 4: urinated all over his mother's car. That little girl, even
Speaker 4: five decades later, Dan I was able to get in
Speaker 4: touch with her, and she couldn't even speak Barjona's name.
Speaker 4: I mean, you just wouldn't believe the damage this man
Speaker 4: did to that little girl. And so he didn't get
Speaker 4: any time for the Assaulophone who was eighteen right after
Speaker 4: high school. Just a couple of years later, he's in Shrewsbury.
Speaker 4: He dumps the little boy's body. He contacts police and
Speaker 4: gives an accurate description of the vehicle. Barzona is caught
Speaker 4: a very short time later. He's given an eighteen to
Speaker 4: twenty years sentence in nineteen seventy seven, and he actually
Speaker 4: goes to Walpole Prison first, he goes to Big Boy
Speaker 4: Prison and he finds it to be a terrible experience.
Speaker 4: In that time frame, Dan he's writing letters to Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman and he's already in Bridgewater and Chapman is telling him,
Speaker 4: You've got to figure out a way to get over here.
Speaker 4: It's much better. There's other people here who we know
Speaker 4: from the outside. It's obviously a much safer place. You're
Speaker 4: amongst sort of your tribe. And Barjonah does get that
Speaker 4: sexually dangerous designation, which is a Massachusetts edict that you know,
Speaker 4: in the layest terms possible I can put it is,
Speaker 4: if you have no time left on your sentence, but
Speaker 4: you're designated as a sexually dangerous person from the state
Speaker 4: of Massachusetts, you can essentially be committed to a state
Speaker 4: hospital for the rest of your life, and you're allowed
Speaker 4: to petition every year to get out, which Wayne Chapman
Speaker 4: and Blad Jonah did and were denied many, many, many times,
Speaker 4: but of course eventually got out. But you know, in
Speaker 4: the layest terms possible I can put it is, they
Speaker 4: can keep you before basically as long as you have
Speaker 4: that designation. And you know at the time by Jonah
Speaker 4: and Chapman wanted that designation so they could get out
Speaker 4: of Big Boy Prison. But as time went on, Dan,
Speaker 4: they worked really hard to shed that so they could
Speaker 4: get out.
Speaker 7: Wayne Chapman is convicted of you say, just not the
Speaker 7: mince worst but lesser charges than Barjona. How does he
Speaker 7: get this again? How does he get the sexually dangerous designation?
Speaker 7: And how does he end up in Bridgewater? And then
Speaker 7: when does Jonas? When is Barjona? And how was he
Speaker 7: able to get into Bridgewater?
Speaker 4: Well, I guess if we're your first part of your question,
Speaker 4: we'd have to back up a little bit. You know,
Speaker 4: Chapman is very active. In nineteen seventy four and seventy five,
Speaker 4: he takes two boys in Seaconk, Massachusetts, which is a
Speaker 4: south coast town of Boston, and he rates them, gets
Speaker 4: away with that. The boys report it, they can never
Speaker 4: find a suspect. It's a crime that is unsolved. Then
Speaker 4: he is in Lawrence, Massachusetts, another town that I believe
Speaker 4: that he had connections, and that is a very tough
Speaker 4: neighborhood where the Project kids and you do not go
Speaker 4: into that neighborhood and just walk around and look for victims.
Speaker 4: You could be beaten back with the little ease. And
Speaker 4: I believe Wayne Chapman had major connections to Laurence See
Speaker 4: takes two boys in nineteen seventy five in the summer
Speaker 4: and isolates them in the woods, and you know, a
Speaker 4: really heroic point of the story here, Dan is that
Speaker 4: he actually fixated on one of the boys and tried
Speaker 4: to isolate one of them apart from each other. And
Speaker 4: they wouldn't leave each other because they knew that had
Speaker 4: they been left alone, Wayne Chapman might kill them. And
Speaker 4: one boy actually got raped, you know, so he couldn't
Speaker 4: so he wouldn't leave his friend. It was an incredibly emotional,
Speaker 4: heroic part of the story to write, frankly, and you know,
Speaker 4: around that time, I believe is the first time I
Speaker 4: actually shelled the book and just said I couldn't do this.
Speaker 4: But anyway, that's just a sidebar. In seventy five, he
Speaker 4: commits those two rapes, and then the very next year,
Speaker 4: in August in nineteen seventy six, Andy Puuklesy disappears. Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman has spotted at the pool that day by multiple witnesses.
Speaker 4: Once they have Wayne Chapman's booking photo and he's a
Speaker 4: suspect in the Pucolice's disappearance. A detective in Lawrence remembers
Speaker 4: the prior summer and says, I have two rapes that
Speaker 4: are unsolved. Maybe I should show these boys Wayne Chapman's
Speaker 4: bookings photo, and once he does that, they pick him
Speaker 4: out of the lineup right away. So Wayne Chapman ultimately
Speaker 4: ends up in Bridgewater for the rapes of both boys
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy seven in all excuse me, seventy five
Speaker 4: August and lawns. And that's how he gets is sexually
Speaker 4: dangerous designation. And that's how she's playing Bridgewater for the
Speaker 4: fence of fifteen to thirty years and then civilly committed
Speaker 4: for one day to life, which is how they always
Speaker 4: do it. I suggest the second part of your question, Dan,
Speaker 4: But that's how Chapman gets the sexually dangus designation.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 7: So now these you contend, and this speak contends that
Speaker 7: Barjona and Wayne Chapman knew each other previously to their
Speaker 7: stay in Bridgewater. Uh, tell us about Bridgewater and who
Speaker 7: else joins these two in Bridgewater. Sure.
Speaker 4: Well. I try to intertwine some personal stories in the book,
Speaker 4: and Bridgewater is sort of a personal story for me.
Speaker 4: It's a place where, you know, when my father was
Speaker 4: in the picture, when I was a kid, we would
Speaker 4: always fish behind the prison there in Bridgewater, and I
Speaker 4: would always, you know, I would always sit there in
Speaker 4: Marvel as a young kid, at the big towers and
Speaker 4: the gates and the and there's a it's on a
Speaker 4: sort of a large wooded area which is well known
Speaker 4: for the paranormal activity. It's what I called the Bridgewater Triangle,
Speaker 4: which is quite famous in paranormal circles. I feel like
Speaker 4: every time I go by there, there's filming something out
Speaker 4: there from pose under book or movie. But yeah, so
Speaker 4: I would always be back there, and I remember, quite succinctly,
Speaker 4: as I write in the book, my father told me,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, it's creepy out here, but the
Speaker 4: real creeps are in there, man. So and I always
Speaker 4: became I was always pretty fascinated with that area because
Speaker 4: you have, you know, a sub you have a correctional facility,
Speaker 4: and then you have the Bridgewater treatment centers that sexually.
Speaker 2: Dangerous and.
Speaker 4: Eventually U bar Jonah and Wayne Chapman or behind the
Speaker 4: wall together. They're joined by another man named Charles Pearce,
Speaker 4: who I contend as well was quite active with Barjona
Speaker 4: and Chapman in the outside world before Bridgewater, and the
Speaker 4: place has a very sordid history. Dan It was a
Speaker 4: subject of a documentary in the late nineteen sixties that
Speaker 4: documented some really rough treatment of inmates in a place
Speaker 4: that needed to be cleaned up and reformed. Massachusetts filed
Speaker 4: an injunction making sure that that documentary was actually never released.
Speaker 4: It wasn't even released until the nineteen nineties. And the
Speaker 4: deplorable conditions that people had to live under in the
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties and seventies there was. It's quite galling when
Speaker 4: you see it.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 4: The place has been cleaned up, very state of the art,
Speaker 4: but at the time dan it was a place that
Speaker 4: wasn't really focused rehabilitation. There were furloughs, there was staff,
Speaker 4: you know, there was rumors of staff sort of hooking
Speaker 4: up then made. There was family days that they would
Speaker 4: have at the sex offender treatment center, where you know,
Speaker 4: there'd be rides and sex offenders, you know, working those
Speaker 4: rides with people's families. I mean, there's so many bizarre
Speaker 4: stories that came out of there, and it's sort of
Speaker 4: a central part of the book is that instead of
Speaker 4: getting treatment and maybe trying to get these guys right,
Speaker 4: what they were really doing was getting their PhDs and
Speaker 4: how to be cases. You know, Bargona, Pierce, Wayne Chapman,
Speaker 4: Richard Paluzzo, who was the organizer of the nineteen seventy
Speaker 4: seven Revere ring was there. Frank Gamiano, who was a
Speaker 4: and I realize I'm throwing characters at you fast. I apologize,
Speaker 4: but there's just so many of them. Who is a
Speaker 4: prolific hell pornographer who was a major part of the
Speaker 4: sex rings in there. You had Thomas Tripp who was
Speaker 4: a serial rapist from this area. I mean, it was
Speaker 4: really a who's who of creditors behind those walls. And
Speaker 4: Charles Pearce would school Nathaniel Bartona and Wayne Chapman to
Speaker 4: make sure that if they ever got a chance to
Speaker 4: get outside the walls again, but they weren't open with
Speaker 4: police and they denied everything and make sure that there's
Speaker 4: no body. And those guys really took that to Hyppan,
Speaker 4: I mean, for the rest of their lives. After nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy seven, Wayne Chapman never admitted again to another crime.
Speaker 4: This is a man who was open with police about
Speaker 4: just about everything that he had done. And for that
Speaker 4: from that day on, he had never been to Lauren,
Speaker 4: He had never committed a crime. He went completely radio silent.
Speaker 4: And it was that PhD that he got that really
Speaker 4: kind of stopped us from making any headway into any
Speaker 4: more of these cases. And when Barjona eventually got out,
Speaker 4: he took all of that to heart because he made
Speaker 4: sure that when he committed another crime, there was nobody.
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Speaker 7: about Charles Pierce scolding Barjona and Wayne Chapman and giving
Speaker 7: them the kind of advice that there's no body, there's
Speaker 7: no crime and no crime, no time. So what happens
Speaker 7: outside of the prison one day the protest all about,
Speaker 7: and what's the connection to those three amigos in the
Speaker 7: treatment center.
Speaker 4: So after the Revere sex case had really blown up
Speaker 4: nationally in nineteen seventy seven, twenty four men were indicted
Speaker 4: and very few got prison time, and I'm sure we'll
Speaker 4: talk about it, but the sort of the local gay
Speaker 4: underground newspapers had really taken up the case. There was
Speaker 4: a writer named David Brill, who was a fantastic writer
Speaker 4: who you know, I disagree with, and I think I
Speaker 4: say this in the book. I disagree with just about
Speaker 4: every bit of his assertions, but he had really taken
Speaker 4: up the cases for the Revere sex ring and basically
Speaker 4: stated that it was a witch hunt against gay men,
Speaker 4: that the men really didn't know each other. And that's
Speaker 4: all complete and utter misinformation, Dans. These men knew each
Speaker 4: other quite well. All of these boys that were involved
Speaker 4: in the sex ring where kids just like myself. They
Speaker 4: were underprivileged kids that didn't have fathers. Some of them
Speaker 4: have came right from steek custody. I mean, these guys
Speaker 4: were doing, you know, some of the most despicable things
Speaker 4: that you get or think of, and for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: the local sort of gay underground in New England had
Speaker 4: taken up for them. And wrote a series of articles
Speaker 4: about how it was just essentially a hit job on
Speaker 4: the gay community, and the men who were involved, you know,
Speaker 4: sort of on the periphery, were starting to organize a
Speaker 4: little bit, and you know, in nineteen eighty three, protest
Speaker 4: erupted outside of Bridgewater because a lot of the men
Speaker 4: who were involved in that Revere sex case behind those walls,
Speaker 4: like Richard Paluzzo, who was really the main perpetrator and
Speaker 4: mastermind behind it, and bar Jona and Chapman had actually
Speaker 4: watched that protest from the day room there in Bridgewater,
Speaker 4: and it was sort of the early beginnings of you know,
Speaker 4: what we would know as Man Block. The National American
Speaker 4: lam Boy Love Association NAMBLUFFS started because of the sort
Speaker 4: of thought that gay men were being you know, targeted
Speaker 4: for criminal cases that weren't really there. And that's really
Speaker 4: where the formation of MAMBLA began. And there was a
Speaker 4: man there who claimed to have been there, who would
Speaker 4: show up someday in the nineteen nineties in Great Falls, Montana,
Speaker 4: you know, a man named Keith Bowman, who you know
Speaker 4: was known to Massachusetts at that time and was really
Speaker 4: starting to organize people, you know, against law enforcement and
Speaker 4: starting to sort of galvanize the gay community into you know, hey,
Speaker 4: you know we're being uncerely targeted by law enforcement and
Speaker 4: we need to sort of gather together and fight back.
Speaker 7: Right, So what happens from this obviously what happens from
Speaker 7: this protest, but more about the connection with Nambla and
Speaker 7: these two people, these three people in Ridgewater and all
Speaker 7: of the fenders in Bridgewater.
Speaker 4: Sure, so these men were highly connected to and I
Speaker 4: sort of draw the connection between these men and an
Speaker 4: area in Boston called the Combat Zone, which is a
Speaker 4: ceedy sort of district of Boston that still exists to
Speaker 4: this day. That was a haven for navy sailors from
Speaker 4: the local Childtown Navy Yard that need shift through World
Speaker 4: War Two. And this was a haven for adult theaters
Speaker 4: and you know, adult bookstores where gay men would congregate.
Speaker 4: And I spent a tremendous amount of time being in
Speaker 4: the Combat Zone in the research for this book. And
Speaker 4: you know, through all of the times I was interviewing people,
Speaker 4: and I never knew if I was talking to people
Speaker 4: who were directly involved, if I was talking to people
Speaker 4: who were actually you know, friends with these people and
Speaker 4: might have even party and some of this stuff, and
Speaker 4: so I had to be very careful on how I
Speaker 4: talked to them. And really the beginnings of this ring
Speaker 4: was sort of fortified right there. And those uh and
Speaker 4: those adult cinemas and sex shops and where gay men
Speaker 4: would congregate and and and you know, do sexual activities
Speaker 4: with each other. And it was really a haven for
Speaker 4: the trade of cild pornography. It's where they would get
Speaker 4: together and trade pictures, talk about how they produced it,
Speaker 4: and you know, ask each other to get them certain
Speaker 4: types of pictures. And it's it's really an incredible, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, snapshot of the time. And you know, there
Speaker 4: was a priest, a man who would eventually become the
Speaker 4: figurehead for the Boston Elope spotlight investigation, which became a
Speaker 4: national news story on the Catholic church. And this man
Speaker 4: was Paul Stanley, and he was very well known to
Speaker 4: the combat zone. He would often be outside bars cinema
Speaker 4: as preaching about, you know, how men and boys should
Speaker 4: be able to you know, partake in that specific type
Speaker 4: of love with each other. And he really galvanized the
Speaker 4: gay community to you know, think that this was somehow
Speaker 4: a righteous thing. And and Shanley would end up going
Speaker 4: away for a very long time for lots of molestation
Speaker 4: cases against young boys. But he was heavily involved in
Speaker 4: those days. And these protesters were you know, more often
Speaker 4: more likely than not, you know, they had known by
Speaker 4: Jonah and Chapman and and Paluzzo and the like outside
Speaker 4: of those walls, and the connection between them is, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's hard to overlook, Dan, it's hard to overlook
Speaker 4: the fact that these these guys activities in existence might
Speaker 4: have you know, created that group that would go on
Speaker 4: to you know, destroy a lot more lives in really
Speaker 4: sort of their legacy would live on outside of those
Speaker 4: prison walls in the manifestation of other boys being abused.
Speaker 4: And it was right there, Dan, it was right there
Speaker 4: in Bridgewater at that protest where the Namblot group decided
Speaker 4: to form. And it's just an incredible offshoot to the story.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 7: Let's get back to one of the real big characters
Speaker 7: in this book and heroic figures, is this Albert Mintz
Speaker 7: and also the case of we because this is a
Speaker 7: central part of the book, as well as the Andy
Speaker 7: Bugluci case itself. And you talk about later in the
Speaker 7: book about a traffic stop in Waterloo with this mints
Speaker 7: and the evidence that's gathered at that time. So go
Speaker 7: back and let's talk about Lawrence and Andy gid loosely
Speaker 7: the climb and then this mince, the confession and the
Speaker 7: traffic stop.
Speaker 4: Sure, so Plici goes missing on twenty on August nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy six, his girlfriend, his little sort of childhood girlfriend,
Speaker 4: a woman named Melanie Kirk, and ends up going home.
Speaker 4: Andy says he wants to stay at the pool around
Speaker 4: five point thirty, between five thirty and five forty five pm.
Speaker 4: The last person to see him was a lifeguard, and
Speaker 4: eventually the lifeguard fingered Wayne Chapman as the man who
Speaker 4: was the last person to be seen with Andy Perglisi.
Speaker 4: Now Beclisis had been being stocked at that pool for
Speaker 4: you know, God knows how long. Chapman had been there
Speaker 4: the year prior and was convicted eventually have two rapes
Speaker 4: the year prior so, and Charlie Pierce was a worked
Speaker 4: at a Woolworth store with his in town. So Charles
Speaker 4: Pearce is well known to the area. He knew the
Speaker 4: pool quite well, and I believe Charles Pearce was with
Speaker 4: him on that day and might have helped him move
Speaker 4: that body, because again, you know, Wayne Chatman was not
Speaker 4: a smart criminal. So the last person to be seen
Speaker 4: with Andy Paglici is Charles Pearce excuse me, as Wayne Chapman.
Speaker 4: The Andy has taken out into the woods with Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman and his four year old friend. So Andy had
Speaker 4: a four year old boy with him at the time,
Speaker 4: and the four year old boy would come in years
Speaker 4: later and talk of the experience that he saw. Last
Speaker 4: saw Andy as he was running away, because Andy of
Speaker 4: course told him get out of here. You know, I
Speaker 4: think Andy was starting to understand that this was not
Speaker 4: you know, somebody who was looking for a lost dog
Speaker 4: who needed help, because that was the guys that he used.
Speaker 4: You know, this man has been all over the pool
Speaker 4: that day asking little kids to help him look for
Speaker 4: a lost dog, and everybody said no, but Andy Piblici.
Speaker 4: The little boy had started to run, and when he
Speaker 4: turned back after cresting a hill, he saw Andy under
Speaker 4: a large rock with two other men standing over him.
Speaker 4: And I believe that other man with Charles Pears because
Speaker 4: by Joan as he had been there. As I write
Speaker 4: in the book, he's a totally recognizable figure, he's three
Speaker 4: hundred pounds, he has a straggling beard, he has a
Speaker 4: different colored eyes, which is completely noticeable. Damn, anybody would
Speaker 4: have been able to pick him out had he been there.
Speaker 4: And anybody who googles a pitchle of bar Jonah will
Speaker 4: certainly understand that right away that he's incredibly recognizable. Charles
Speaker 4: Pears and Chapman are really not that recognizable. And Chapman
Speaker 4: walked with a little bit of a limp. He had
Speaker 4: a scar over his right eye, he didn't pay a
Speaker 4: lot of attention in his hygiene. He had sort of
Speaker 4: greasy hair. But these guys were just sort of running
Speaker 4: the mill guys. So the last person to see Andy
Speaker 4: Perglissi alive was his four year old friend. Now, of course,
Speaker 4: they mobilized the full breath of Larren's police dependent once
Speaker 4: they realized that Andy's missing, and I mean green Berets
Speaker 4: came in on the ten Special Forces Group, which was
Speaker 4: located at Fort Devons. They mobilized their entire unit. This
Speaker 4: unit had just been fighting in Vietnam, they'd just done
Speaker 4: multiple deployments to Salt East Asia, and here they are out.
Speaker 4: They don't look into the little boy Unfortunately, Andy's body
Speaker 4: was never found and the only good suspect they had
Speaker 4: in the case was Wayne Sadman and Laurence police had
Speaker 4: focused a little bit, in my opinion, and that suspect
Speaker 4: a little bit too much on the family, including his
Speaker 4: mother face. She was going through a little bit of
Speaker 4: drama with her boyfriend at the time. His father lived
Speaker 4: outside of the home, and it was a typical case
Speaker 4: in my opinion of the granger of Dutch in retrospect.
Speaker 4: And you know, forty years later, sixty years later, here
Speaker 4: we are still know a sign of Andy Paglici. So
Speaker 4: what happens is Chapman leaves that day and Andy had
Speaker 4: been wearing a pair of socks that were like the
Speaker 4: high female stocks from one of his sisters. Chapman actually
Speaker 4: had it in the van. What happened how Albert Mins
Speaker 4: gets involved, is that Chapman is driving days later back
Speaker 4: to Waterloo, New York and presumably heading home, you know,
Speaker 4: towards Jamestown, and he's pulled over. Sergeant Tony Dadder the
Speaker 4: New York City Police remembers the license plate from a
Speaker 4: bolo that very morning that maybe the play had been stolen.
Speaker 4: So when they kept Chapman. He's got hundreds of pitches
Speaker 4: of little boys strewn across his dashboard. And I write
Speaker 4: this in the book that you know, this is the
Speaker 4: way Wayne Chapman existed. I mean, he couldn't take a
Speaker 4: drive without having pictures of children strewn across his dashboard.
Speaker 4: So when the police finally there, of course struck by
Speaker 4: the pictures of little boys, and they asked him to
Speaker 4: exit the vehicle, and he has a starter pistol, and
Speaker 4: eventually he's taken just on that starter pistol was a
Speaker 4: weapons violations in the state of New York, even though
Speaker 4: it wasn't a real done. When they inventoried the vehicle,
Speaker 4: they find thousands of dollars of state of the art
Speaker 4: camera equipment. You know, this is a man who worked
Speaker 4: as a janitor. You know, the median pay was around
Speaker 4: three fifty an hour at the time. Dan he had
Speaker 4: a state of the movie reels, all of which depicted
Speaker 4: young boys in pornographic head of a homosexual activity. He
Speaker 4: had hundreds upon hundreds of magazines depicting young boys. I mean,
Speaker 4: he had a mobile child pornography, you know, a shop
Speaker 4: right there. And once they realized that he had a
Speaker 4: Provident address, and they started trying to identify boys who
Speaker 4: were in these pictures. Albert Mintz was a sex crime
Speaker 4: at detect did with the Providence Police Department who had
Speaker 4: not known of Chapman. He received a teletype with the
Speaker 4: pictures of the boys saying, this man has a address
Speaker 4: in Rhode Island. We're wondering if you know who this
Speaker 4: is and who any of these boys are. And Mince
Speaker 4: is immediately struck by the background in the pictures of
Speaker 4: the boys. He recognizes it as a major state park
Speaker 4: here in Rhode Island, Roger Williams State Park, which is
Speaker 4: a very popular attraction for people in the summer. And
Speaker 4: he immediately grabs the picture and says, well, I know
Speaker 4: where this is, and I know this is in my town,
Speaker 4: so I better figure it out. And he immediately gets
Speaker 4: the name and the address of Wayne Chapman and goes
Speaker 4: over to his apartment and he looks around and he
Speaker 4: pulls the trash out and gives a general look over
Speaker 4: the air that he finds receipts and realized that Chapman's
Speaker 4: really mobile. He finds the seats in Brockton and Lawrence
Speaker 4: and Webster Haver Hill. You know other states, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: And he notices a lot of kids out there talking
Speaker 4: and playing, and he just asked them, you know, if
Speaker 4: they know anything about Wayne. And immediately the boys got
Speaker 4: confessing that Wayne Chapman has had them up to the apartment.
Speaker 4: And immediately he realizes that he's got a case on
Speaker 4: his hands of a man who's molesting a lot of boys.
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Speaker 7: So how does Mints proceed with this information?
Speaker 4: Immediately he has Wayne Chatman extradited back to Massachusetts. But
Speaker 4: before he does that, before the extradition comes in, he
Speaker 4: goes to his boss and says, can I just go
Speaker 4: up and visit this guy in New York now? Because
Speaker 4: Mins now has boys piling into the police station in
Speaker 4: Providence telling stories about how Wayne Chapman got him up
Speaker 4: to the third floor apartment at one twenty nine would
Speaker 4: have in Providence, and you know he's the boys tell
Speaker 4: him that he has a dark room up there he's
Speaker 4: developing film and Albert Steiner believe that he has a
Speaker 4: major sex predator here with a multitude of victims. And
Speaker 4: once he starts looking at the receipt. He's realizing that
Speaker 4: just a week ago, this boy was in this man
Speaker 4: was in Lawrence. We have a missing boy at Lawrence,
Speaker 4: we have a missing boy in Brockton. He's aware of
Speaker 4: all these cases, so he wants to check and make sure,
Speaker 4: you know that Wayne Chapman doesn't know anything about these
Speaker 4: other missing boy cases. So he brings the pictures along
Speaker 4: with him. He does get clearance to go up to
Speaker 4: New York, and he goes up to Upstate New York
Speaker 4: and Waterloo and has the first series of interviews with
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman where the crime has sort of come into
Speaker 4: better focus. He tells him, you know that he had
Speaker 4: talked to a lot of the boys Providence, and a
Speaker 4: lot of them were Italian kids. And you have to
Speaker 4: understand Dan that growing up in this area, in Rhode Island,
Speaker 4: in Boston area, nothing happened, no commerce happened without the
Speaker 4: mob being involved. And in Boston you had the Irish
Speaker 4: mob of games Lady Bulger. In Providence you had the
Speaker 4: Nicolsonosta you know, Raymond Patriota mob. And even more than
Speaker 4: the police, they had power, you know, more than anybody.
Speaker 4: They ran every enterprise there was played off that with Chapman.
Speaker 4: He tells them, listen, you have sexual assault on a
Speaker 4: bunch of Italian boys. How do you think this is
Speaker 4: going to play in prison? And he made Kallayne Chapman
Speaker 4: was petrified of going to prison because he's had bad
Speaker 4: experiences in the past. He's probably going to go away
Speaker 4: for a long time. So Vince tells him just be
Speaker 4: honest with me and I can see what I can
Speaker 4: do for you, because I think you belong in the
Speaker 4: hospital and not in prison. And obviously Cadman is thinking,
Speaker 4: you know, if I can just get to a hospital,
Speaker 4: things are probably gonna be a little bit better for him.
Speaker 4: Met so they talk. He shows them pictures of David
Speaker 4: Lewis and a five year old boy from Brockton who
Speaker 4: is missing, and Japman immediately starts to confess that that's
Speaker 4: the boy that he took behind the cemetery Melrose Cemetery
Speaker 4: in Brockton. Each would have been about two point eight
Speaker 4: miles away from where David Lewison went missing. He shows
Speaker 4: them the policey picture and he says, you know, that
Speaker 4: looks like the boy that I took with another boy.
Speaker 4: And at the time Dan, the police did not know
Speaker 4: that another boy was involved when he took policy. That
Speaker 4: boy had not come forward until six years later. The
Speaker 4: only people who could have known that were the people
Speaker 4: who were there. And he explains and described the salt
Speaker 4: pits in Laurence where the abduction took place. In Hell.
Speaker 4: I mean, even decades later, Dan telling me, you know,
Speaker 4: the minute I actually viewed the scene in lines. After
Speaker 4: the conversation, I knew that Wayne Chapman had killed the
Speaker 4: greasy because he said it was just to a t
Speaker 4: how perfect it was. And obviously now it looks a
Speaker 4: lot different, so it's very hard for me to have reference.
Speaker 4: But at that point, Wayne Chapman had confessed to victims
Speaker 4: in Fall River, Massachusetts, Sea Conk, Connecticut. He had talked
Speaker 4: about his crimes in Virginia in nineteen sixty eight when
Speaker 4: he had went, you know, quiet for a long time,
Speaker 4: where he tied a boy to a tree who bit
Speaker 4: him and lit the boy on fire, and he thought
Speaker 4: that the boy had died. And that was one thing
Speaker 4: that I chased down in the story. For years and years,
Speaker 4: Dan was trying to locate a missing boy in Virginia
Speaker 4: between nineteen sixty eight and seventies who might have been
Speaker 4: found tied to a tree, and I just you know,
Speaker 4: I'd chase that story forever, but I've never been able
Speaker 4: to verify it. But if Wayne Chadman, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: of the mind that if Chapman, you know, confessed to it,
Speaker 4: then it happened because he was not, again in the
Speaker 4: business of trying to throw police off the send. He's
Speaker 4: just simply not a smart enough man to play games
Speaker 4: of police. So it was during those first rounds of interviews, Dan,
Speaker 4: that al Mins was able to get the Quadi concessions
Speaker 4: on the Lewison Pergleasy case. All the rapes and providence
Speaker 4: and the surrounding areas and mints was starting to get
Speaker 4: some sort of focus on just how many victims this
Speaker 4: man had.
Speaker 7: You talk about a crucial interview and the skill that
Speaker 7: you Wow, you've just described somewhat. It's a skillful interview
Speaker 7: to be able to persuade this person to give up
Speaker 7: information that other people would have a hard time listening
Speaker 7: from him. What happens with the evidence, the clear evidence
Speaker 7: from this concession, what can happen to him?
Speaker 4: I think you know this was the end of the story,
Speaker 4: right Dan, that you know, the bad guy confesses and
Speaker 4: leads people to the bodies and the family gets some
Speaker 4: sort of yeah, I don't know how if you could
Speaker 4: call it closure, I don't know what he could call it,
Speaker 4: but uh, but it's not. I mean, Wayne Chapman describes
Speaker 4: these crimes in great detail. Albert Mints does an incredible job,
Speaker 4: in my opinion, of pulling it out of him. And
Speaker 4: you know, at one point he even blurts out, when
Speaker 4: Mince is putting some pressure on him, you know, I
Speaker 4: killed the kid. Okay, I killed him. You know, he
Speaker 4: says that about Andy Puglici, And just as you know,
Speaker 4: Albert is starting to make some headway, you know. And
Speaker 4: I didn't put this in the page to disparage anybody,
Speaker 4: but Albert Mince is absolutely livid at his partner who
Speaker 4: came down with him from Providence because he believes that
Speaker 4: he cost him the entire case. At that point, this
Speaker 4: is not Albert Vince's case. He is not a liar
Speaker 4: police detectives. He's not a detective from Brockton. He is
Speaker 4: investigating Providence crimes. But he is trying to get a
Speaker 4: soul broth of what Wayne Chapman has done while living
Speaker 4: in Providence, and he has him on the hood for
Speaker 4: maybe a full scale concession to two missing boys who
Speaker 4: have haunted the region for years. In one case, his
Speaker 4: partner sort of entered Jackson says, hey, you know, fine,
Speaker 4: we killed him. Let's get a full scale confession and
Speaker 4: tell us about it. And at that point Wayne Chapman
Speaker 4: shuts down and says, hey, you got me believe in
Speaker 4: my own lives and an ailments, you know, to his
Speaker 4: eternal credit, you know, to this day, you know, as
Speaker 4: he sits in Sonning Jacksonville, Florida, where he lives now, says,
Speaker 4: you know, that was the worst. You know, that was
Speaker 4: the defining moment in our in our cases, because we
Speaker 4: lost Wayne Chapman right there. Then he never ever again
Speaker 4: admitted to a crime. I mean, as from that point on,
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman had completely set down and all have been
Speaker 4: thought of coming who you know, did the best he
Speaker 4: could with you know, trying to play on his uh,
Speaker 4: you know, the sort of what his life would be
Speaker 4: like in prison and he'd better be honest. But I
Speaker 4: think something clicked in his mind where if I made
Speaker 4: the full scale confession, I could potentially, you know, maybe
Speaker 4: be looking at you know, life in prison. You know,
Speaker 4: and Walpole, which was a notoriously tough prison here, Dan,
Speaker 4: he could not get the death penalty and we did
Speaker 4: that here. So I don't know what happened. I'll never know,
Speaker 4: you know, in his psyche. But at that point, Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman shut down and the evidence now had to be
Speaker 4: you know, detective now had to focus on getting physical
Speaker 4: evidence in tying Wayne Chatman to the crimes, and that
Speaker 4: it was just never available because the bodies were never fallen.
Speaker 4: And you know, there was just no physical evidence ever
Speaker 4: linking Wayne Chapman to David Lewison or Andy Polsi. It
Speaker 4: just died right there, Dan.
Speaker 7: Let's get back to bridge Water and Charles Pearce counseling
Speaker 7: these guys. No body, no crime, no time. Barjonah has
Speaker 7: a brother who has some money, and very much like
Speaker 7: Wayne Chapman, these guys of course find Christianity in prison.
Speaker 7: Tell us what happens with Barjona in the sexually Dangerous designation?
Speaker 4: Well, Barjona, Barjona's dead. Bob Brown would often state that
Speaker 4: he believed his brother would switched to first was really
Speaker 4: one of his ultimate enablers. Dance and or you'll understand
Speaker 4: it even more. But you know, basically, Barjona was looking
Speaker 4: at getting out of prison very shortly on his prison time.
Speaker 4: He had only gotten eighteen to twenty years with the
Speaker 4: Massachusetts Parle system. I mean, he could have seen himself out,
Speaker 4: you know, by nineteen eighty seven. And he was trying
Speaker 4: to shed that sexually dangerous designition that he fought so
Speaker 4: hard to get. And he wanted his brother to find
Speaker 4: him some Christian psychologists, and he found them. He wrote
Speaker 4: a five thousand dollars check to basically pay to get
Speaker 4: his brother out of prison. And these two men, Eric
Speaker 4: Schweitzer and Richard Ober came in and totally disregarded every
Speaker 4: you know, the staff at Bridgewater has been evaluating Barjona
Speaker 4: all along, and they considered him to be one of
Speaker 4: the most dangerous predators that they ever had behind those walls.
Speaker 4: They had recommended that Nathaniel Barjona never ever see the
Speaker 4: light of day. This was a man who would openly
Speaker 4: speak about, you know, just to give you a snapshot
Speaker 4: of his prison, you know, his Bridgewater time. This was
Speaker 4: a man who would carry pictures of kids in his
Speaker 4: Bible and they'd fall and drop out. He did not
Speaker 4: participate in sex Defender treatment at all. There's no interest
Speaker 4: in trying to you know, you know, figure out why
Speaker 4: he committed crimes. He had often talked to psychologists about
Speaker 4: his you know, his sort of curiosity about what it
Speaker 4: would be like the peace human flesh. I mean, he
Speaker 4: was openly opening about his interest in becoming a cannibal.
Speaker 4: And these two men came in evaluated Barjona basically in
Speaker 4: a nutshell, testified in front of the judge in early
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety that, hey, listen, you know, this guy has
Speaker 4: found Christianity. He has a plan to move to Montana.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: He had started an antique business, you know, from prison.
Speaker 4: I don't know how they do that, but that's great,
Speaker 4: you know. And board games. He had patented a couple
Speaker 4: of board games that he was trying to get sold,
Speaker 4: and the judge bought it. I mean, the judge didn't
Speaker 4: blink an eye. And Nathaniel Barjona was the door was open,
Speaker 4: and his mother was waiting for him in you know,
Speaker 4: August of nineteen ninety one. He was a free man
Speaker 4: on the recommendations of a man like Richard over which
Speaker 4: you know I write in the book Dan. You know,
Speaker 4: this was a guy who you know, was a who
Speaker 4: had taught school children in Danang Province in Vietnam. He
Speaker 4: was a man who was a well respected member of
Speaker 4: the church. His practice, his private practice was literally located
Speaker 4: a stone's throw from where I live on the south
Speaker 4: coast of Massachusetts. I would often run by there on
Speaker 4: my running route almost every day. And there was so
Speaker 4: many times, as I write in a book, where I
Speaker 4: wanted to just talk to him, and I would see
Speaker 4: him getting out of his vehicle and heading into his practice,
Speaker 4: and you know, I would just didn't tell you how
Speaker 4: many times, Dan I wanted to just stop him, and
Speaker 4: you know, obviously respectfully and just say could we please,
Speaker 4: you know, understanding what we know now about what Bardona
Speaker 4: did after he got out of prison, I'm just not
Speaker 4: sure how this man fleet that night, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: not sure. And you know, in nineteen ninety one, Barjona
Speaker 4: is a free man completely, no parole, no prison, no probation.
Speaker 4: He is absolute let go from Bridgewater just months after
Speaker 4: opining about the fact that he has some interest in
Speaker 4: the teeth of human flesh. It's it's an incredible story.
Speaker 4: It's unreal, it's almost too unreal to be true. But
Speaker 4: you know, I've read the court documents, then it's absolutely true.
Speaker 4: That's how he got out.
Speaker 2: What does he do?
Speaker 7: You talk, You just mentioned that he he offends almost immediately.
Speaker 2: What does he do? What?
Speaker 7: What crimes does he commit?
Speaker 4: Twenty three days later, he's in a town of Oxford, Massachusetts, Boxford,
Speaker 4: excuse me, and he sees a little boy in the
Speaker 4: backseat of a vehicle and his mother is heading into
Speaker 4: the post office and it's in a rainstorm. He's out
Speaker 4: on one of his many walks. Very key steamings with
Speaker 4: Barziona was to get out and walk around the streets
Speaker 4: and you know, spy little kids take pictures. That was
Speaker 4: one of his big things. And you know, the mom
Speaker 4: had left the kid in the backseat of the pa
Speaker 4: seven year old boy. Barjona opened the door and proceeded
Speaker 4: to jump up and down on the boy's chest. And
Speaker 4: now at this point, Barjona was pushing three hundred and
Speaker 4: twenty five pounds, this boy was three foot eight in
Speaker 4: around thirty five pounds, and he stomped on the boy's
Speaker 4: past and just furiously acted out and which was absolutely
Speaker 4: his memo. I mean, he was sadistic and he got
Speaker 4: off with other people's pain. And thank god the mother
Speaker 4: thar it in time and was able to come outside
Speaker 4: and grab Barjona out of there, who, of course was
Speaker 4: just simply saying, you know, I wanted to get out
Speaker 4: of the rain. He made a million excuses. He homes
Speaker 4: around buns off. The mom is able to get him
Speaker 4: after a description to the police, and of course Barjona
Speaker 4: is so well known. Even all these years later, police
Speaker 4: remembered the description of the man from nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 4: the true to abductions that took place. So they end
Speaker 4: up over at barjo in his mother's house that day.
Speaker 4: They take him in and you know, incredibly damned it's
Speaker 4: just it happened time and time again in the story.
Speaker 2: He gets off.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's nothing really, he's not touting prison that night.
Speaker 4: He's basically referred to probation and he's out within iurs
Speaker 4: And that very night he books up the victim's name
Speaker 4: from the police report. You know back then it was
Speaker 4: you know, yellow pages all over, and he takes a
Speaker 4: cab to the victim's house. That's very night, and they
Speaker 4: see him pulling up the driveway. They shut all the
Speaker 4: light off. He tells the cab drive away right here.
Speaker 4: He stands outside the house and just peers them so
Speaker 4: everybody can see him, and then just turns around and
Speaker 4: walks off. And but the message was Sundan. You know,
Speaker 4: this was a guy who absolutely everything that you know, pedophile, absolutely,
Speaker 4: you know his name's doing this. I think his victims.
Speaker 4: He got off on the power. And that very night,
Speaker 4: after doing you know, fifteen years in Bridgewater, he's right
Speaker 4: back to terrorize and withstoms. He just couldn't stop himself
Speaker 4: and he left that night. He ended up having a
Speaker 4: court appearance in the preceding weeks, and they were, you know,
Speaker 4: they he'd done signed a different judge, and they were
Speaker 4: they were ready to throw him back in there for life.
Speaker 4: I mean, they didn't know what to do with this guy.
Speaker 4: You know, he was a guy who you know, was
Speaker 4: cunning enough to help them. Listen, you know, I'm getting
Speaker 4: ready to leave the state. I'm heading to Montana with
Speaker 4: my parents. His brother, Bob had already been a defense
Speaker 4: contractor who owned a lot of property in the Montana area,
Speaker 4: so he was milling and Massachusett authorities, for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: agreed to do that. And they said, listen, you know,
Speaker 4: two conditions and Montana's got to take you, so you've
Speaker 4: got to get in contact with them, and b you
Speaker 4: need to have a psychological psychological exam to day and
Speaker 4: bar Jonah walked out of the court that day, never
Speaker 4: went down to site, and also never contacted authorities in Montana.
Speaker 4: He was heading to Montana, you know, just mere week later.
Speaker 4: So Montana had no idea that he was coming, and
Speaker 4: Massachusetts had no idea that he's never contacted them. So
Speaker 4: it was a major misstep and major discommunication that was,
Speaker 4: you know, eventually, you know, allegedly cost a boy's life.
Speaker 7: Let's stop for a second for these messages you talk
Speaker 7: about who costs a boy his life while he's out.
Speaker 7: Of course, his friend Wayne Chapman is jealous. What does
Speaker 7: he do to join his friend on the outside and
Speaker 7: continue their crimes on the outside.
Speaker 4: To be clear, excuse me, Wayne Chapman had two fifteen
Speaker 4: to thirty years sentences too to serve, So he had
Speaker 4: about at least thirty years at the very least to serve.
Speaker 4: But we were starting to see the end of his
Speaker 4: time too. I'm not sure who paid for it.
Speaker 7: Dan.
Speaker 4: You know, these are not real psychologists. These are just
Speaker 4: simply hired guns who will do whatever you tell them
Speaker 4: to do for the right price. But Chapman was able
Speaker 4: to get Ober and Sweitzer too. He had essentially the
Speaker 4: same stopped going to treatment, he had stopped doing anything
Speaker 4: to sort of better himself. He would never talk about
Speaker 4: his crimes. I had talked to tons of people who
Speaker 4: were staff at that time, and Wayne Chamon was just
Speaker 4: shut down. I mean, he would never ever talk about
Speaker 4: anything as related to his crimes. He never took responsibility.
Speaker 4: He didn't have the capability to understand, you know, what
Speaker 4: he had done. And Ober and Schweitzer eventually testify to
Speaker 4: the fact that Wayne Chapman is himself no longer sexually dangerous.
Speaker 4: And you look at the totality of Wayne Chaman's crimes.
Speaker 4: You know, one hundred victims that he admits to, how
Speaker 4: many more you know, the missing boys, And you know
Speaker 4: the fact that somebody would good conscience testify that this
Speaker 4: man may not be a threat to society. It's just
Speaker 4: it's unfathomable for me. And if you read this book,
Speaker 4: you're you know, you're there's not really, you know, many
Speaker 4: happy endings there. There's not a lot of stuff that's
Speaker 4: redeemable here. And this is one of those instances. It's
Speaker 4: just it's maddening, but it does shed. They do shed
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman of its sexually dangerous designation, and he gets
Speaker 4: sent from Bridgewater's Gardner, which is another sort of low,
Speaker 4: uh medium prison in Massachusetts. And at the time he's
Speaker 4: he's in contact with Barjona through snail mail, and you know,
Speaker 4: he's talking about the outside and how he and how
Speaker 4: you know, Wayne, what Wayne Chapman can do to get
Speaker 4: out of there and fay Maine, and pretty consistent contact
Speaker 4: all the way through the nineteen nineties and right up
Speaker 4: until bar Jona's death. I know we're jumping ahead, but
Speaker 4: those two, you know, had often talked about many, many things,
Speaker 4: including you know, sort of some cryptic messages back and
Speaker 4: forth that nobody's ever really been able to understand what
Speaker 4: exactly they're talking about. But those two were the best
Speaker 4: of friends, and line Chapman was incredibly jealous that all
Speaker 4: his fights were able to get him out of there.
Speaker 4: But you know, his sentence was a lot lighter because
Speaker 4: he just didn't have the totality of crimes that Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman did.
Speaker 7: You talk about you write about nineteen ninety six and
Speaker 7: a character named Doc Bowman and bar Jonah tell us
Speaker 7: who Doc Bowman is and what happens in nineteen ninety
Speaker 7: six regarding a ten year old boy, Zach Ramsey.
Speaker 4: There's so many rabbit holes in this case, Dan, you
Speaker 4: know it's and Doc Bowman is a rabbit hole that
Speaker 4: I fell down, you know, for years. And you know,
Speaker 4: the thing that really got me on Bouman is that
Speaker 4: he was known to Massachusetts in the nineteenth seventies. And
Speaker 4: this is a man who had been committing sexual assaults
Speaker 4: against the children for decades. He was a legitimate doctor,
Speaker 4: He had a PhD from Houston. He was a piano
Speaker 4: teacher in the nineteen sixties in Colorado who would put
Speaker 4: out ads in the paper for lessons for specialty donsters.
Speaker 4: And this man had been committing crimes in Colorado throughout
Speaker 4: the entire nineteen sixties and eventually was you know, most
Speaker 4: most pedophiles. He was ran out of town and the
Speaker 4: details are incredibly unclear, but he ends up allegedly in
Speaker 4: Massachusetts in the nineteen seventies. He had stated many times
Speaker 4: that he was a member of the original thirty two,
Speaker 4: which is what the original thirty two members of Namblock
Speaker 4: called themselves. I was never able to collaborate that he
Speaker 4: had no address history in Massachusetts, no known associates, But
Speaker 4: I believe, you know, this was a place Dan that
Speaker 4: he was a pedophiles haven in the nineteen seventies. I
Speaker 4: mean people were coming in from all over the country, Atlanta, California,
Speaker 4: you know, Midwest, you know, to patronize a sex ring
Speaker 4: and then sort of, you know, get with like minded
Speaker 4: people and ninety nine percent of the public is repulsed
Speaker 4: by what these people have inside them. They look for validation,
Speaker 4: and somehow he ends up in Great Falls, Montana, which
Speaker 4: is you know again you know those details in Murphy too.
Speaker 4: But I would not be surprised. And I talked about
Speaker 4: in the book that Barjona and Doc Bauman didn't know
Speaker 4: each other ahead the time, and maybe some intelligence came
Speaker 4: through back channels that this is a safe place to be.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: There was another pedophile from Massachusetts that I talked about
Speaker 4: the Bookkeece Donaldson, who lived very close to Barjona, and
Speaker 4: he was a sex offender against little boys and that
Speaker 4: was his main thing as little boys, and he had
Speaker 4: been convicted on sexual assaults and he ends up in
Speaker 4: Great Falls of Montana, never living more than a mile
Speaker 4: away from Barjona. This is a Massachusetts guy all the
Speaker 4: way who had been there. So it's just bizarre. It's
Speaker 4: from the you know, I just take it from the
Speaker 4: basis of there are no coincidences in the story, because
Speaker 4: it isn't. There's always a reason behind why these people
Speaker 4: are where they are and who they victim of. So
Speaker 4: Jack Diamon ends up meeting Barjona in nineteen three in Montana.
Speaker 4: He's got a long history of sex crimes against Kilden.
Speaker 4: He's a Korean War vet which saw a good bit
Speaker 4: of combat as a medic, and at that point in
Speaker 4: his life he's in his late sixties and he's sort
Speaker 4: of hing Barjona, sort of band together and much like
Speaker 4: Chapman and Barjona good years prior, and they stock children together.
Speaker 4: They they you know, walk the streets of Great Falls
Speaker 4: together and take pictures, you know, over by the schools
Speaker 4: and the malls, and those two were basically inspectable all
Speaker 4: the way up until Barjona. Dac Ramsey goes missing. And
Speaker 4: you know the thing with the Ramsey disappearance is this
Speaker 4: is just before Ramsey disappeared. Doc Bauman had a plan
Speaker 4: to take him away to Canada. These these three were
Speaker 4: in sort of a lover's quarrel together. Doc Bauman had fallen,
Speaker 4: you know, completely in love with this ten year old boy,
Speaker 4: and Barjona was incredibly jealous that he was spending less
Speaker 4: time with Dak and he was with Bauman more So.
Speaker 4: I believe that was the genesis of Barjona's anger towards
Speaker 4: Dak Ramsey, and I believe that's what ultimately led to
Speaker 4: his disapparents.
Speaker 7: Dan, mm hmm, you're right. In nineteen ninety nine, bar
Speaker 7: Jona is arrested. He's given one hundred and thirty years
Speaker 7: for molesting neighbors. The detectives read his correspondence between himself
Speaker 7: and Wayne Chapman, and so they you say that Montana
Speaker 7: authorities believe that Barjona and Wayne Chapman may have killed
Speaker 7: kids four years together. So this other team up. So
Speaker 7: let's talk about nineteen ninety nineteen ninety nine. But also
Speaker 7: Charles Pierce. We mentioned him already. What does he say
Speaker 7: on his deathbed regarding Andy Blueglisi.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Charles Pearce ends up with prostate cancer and he's
Speaker 4: really near the end in nineteen ninety nine, and he
Speaker 4: starts he had confessed prior to murder. Charles Pearce made
Speaker 4: it a habit dan of confessing to murders all the
Speaker 4: way throughout his criminal career. Now, this is a man
Speaker 4: who was a carnival worker who had been living all
Speaker 4: over the country, but he was born in Massachusetts, and
Speaker 4: he would he caught a case in Florida in nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy nine where he molested two boys, and he immediately
Speaker 4: he immediately confessed to the murder of a young girl
Speaker 4: named Janice Pocket in Connecticut in nineteen seventy nine, which
Speaker 4: I write about in the book. And I sort of,
Speaker 4: you know, asked the question of you know, Connecticut authorities
Speaker 4: don't believe that Charles Pearce did that murder. They believe
Speaker 4: that he could simply confess that murder. Who he could
Speaker 4: get to Massachusetts to be behind the wall of the
Speaker 4: Bridgewater with his friends, which you know, Flauta prisonism is
Speaker 4: notoriously tough, and it's definitely not easy for a pedophile.
Speaker 4: So I could see that, you know, there's alternate theories there.
Speaker 4: But on his guest ben in ninety nine, he's starts
Speaker 4: admitting that he you know that he committed these murders,
Speaker 4: and Lawrence that he, you know, buried the body of
Speaker 4: Andy Puglici, and you know, and and then he pulls
Speaker 4: back and then he and then he then he does
Speaker 4: it again. I mean, he goes back and forth. But
Speaker 4: you know, I do believe, you know, Dan, like I said,
Speaker 4: I believe when Wayne Chapman took Andy Peglssi on that
Speaker 4: day in seventy six, he intended to do what he
Speaker 4: always did, which was raped the boy and take pictures
Speaker 4: so he could produce his child pornography and get it
Speaker 4: out to his customers. He was a low level child
Speaker 4: pornographer who was at the bottom rung of a massive apparatus.
Speaker 4: And it's really the apparatus that killed these boys. That
Speaker 4: being said, I think things got out of hand and
Speaker 4: Antiperglici was somehow killed in the in the commission of
Speaker 4: those crimes. And once he realized that he had a
Speaker 4: dead boy on his hands, that's when men like Charles
Speaker 4: Pierce get involved. And Charles Pearce was made to be
Speaker 4: known in those circles that if a body needed to
Speaker 4: go away, he could make it go away. Now, whether
Speaker 4: they took that body and buried it somewhere in Lawrence
Speaker 4: that we have yet to find yet. I truly hope
Speaker 4: that's the case. And some day his Romanians did returned
Speaker 4: to his family, and his family have a place to
Speaker 4: you know, lay flowers or visit their fun It's you know,
Speaker 4: the opinion of some authorities in Providence in my opinion
Speaker 4: as well, that somehow those two got back to Providence
Speaker 4: where where Chapman was employed at Miriam Hospital, where he
Speaker 4: had the key of the incinerator. There was an unauthorized
Speaker 4: man that during next day God at work when he
Speaker 4: wasn't supposed to be. And I believe that's what they
Speaker 4: did in any body. And I believe the reason why
Speaker 4: a guy like Pierce would admit to a crime like
Speaker 4: that on his deathbed was simply just to run misdirection
Speaker 4: for his friend. He's about to die. Chapman had years
Speaker 4: left and you know, if he could screw with the
Speaker 4: police one last time, then then great. And and that's
Speaker 4: what I truly believe that was. And I don't think
Speaker 4: that he he is the one who you know, killed Peglici,
Speaker 4: but I do believe that he had a lot of
Speaker 4: involved and what happened afterwards, and witnesses had stated in
Speaker 4: the years that have gone pass now that they saw
Speaker 4: a van that looked just like Charles Pears's idling near
Speaker 4: the pool that day. And I believe Pierce was there
Speaker 4: that day. They worked in pandem and whether it was
Speaker 4: you know, Wayne Chapman committing the crime and Charlie Pierce
Speaker 4: taking the pictures or what have you. I believe Charles
Speaker 4: Pearce was there that day and had some sort of
Speaker 4: involvement in the crime. And the concession is layered in
Speaker 4: some truth, but not all the way true.
Speaker 7: There you write that in twenty and eighteen, Wayne Chapman
Speaker 7: was released living outside of a school in a nursing
Speaker 7: home in Rocky Hill, Connecticut, and you had a brief
Speaker 7: confrontation with him in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Tell us about that.
Speaker 4: You know, I heard a.
Speaker 2: Youth renter.
Speaker 8: He was.
Speaker 4: I heard him on a podcast, you know, maybe two
Speaker 4: three years ago talking about how he had a favorite
Speaker 4: suspect in a case that he had been obsessed with
Speaker 4: for years, but the disappearance of a girl named Amy
Speaker 4: Howe that he had something. He had gone down to
Speaker 4: Florida and he basically was going to call the man's
Speaker 4: bluff and say hey, I have this information and see
Speaker 4: how he reacted. And and I sort of stole a
Speaker 4: pat from his book. If I ever had the opportunity,
Speaker 4: I told myself to talk to Wayne Chapman. I was
Speaker 4: going to tell him that I had the information that
Speaker 4: I know that he committed an unauthorized burn the very
Speaker 4: next day after Andy Paglici's disappearance, and I wanted to
Speaker 4: see his reaction. And I don't have that information, but
Speaker 4: I wanted to see his reaction. Although it is the
Speaker 4: opinion of the of the detectives in Providence that that's
Speaker 4: what happened, and I think that's a good theory. I
Speaker 4: think that's a theory that makes a lot of sense,
Speaker 4: But I don't know either way. I saw our news
Speaker 4: report that Wayne Tratman is going to be released to
Speaker 4: a homeless shelter that was close to the Boston area
Speaker 4: that I recognized, and I knew that Tratman would probably
Speaker 4: enter and exit in certain directions, and I was going
Speaker 4: to go down there and talk to him, and you know,
Speaker 4: I grabbed him, and he was in his wheelchair at
Speaker 4: that time, and I said, you know way, and I
Speaker 4: know that you know I have information that Andrew Perplice's
Speaker 4: DNA was found in the incinerator, and what do you
Speaker 4: think of that? And you know, he just told me
Speaker 4: that he had never been to Lawrence and he didn't
Speaker 4: know anything about him, and he denied until it was
Speaker 4: a meeting that was completely fruitless. But I'll tell you, Dan,
Speaker 4: I've been in front of Caliban terrorists in Afghanistan, that
Speaker 4: I'd been in front of Boco Haram terrorists in the
Speaker 4: Middle East, and I've been in front of the worst
Speaker 4: people that you could possibly produce in this world. And
Speaker 4: I've never had the feeling that I had when I
Speaker 4: was face to face a Wayne Chapman. He could just
Speaker 4: be definite definition of pure evil and an unfinished soul.
Speaker 4: You know, at least he doesn't have the capacity to
Speaker 4: feel the feelings at me and you feel and I
Speaker 4: took at least that away from the meeting.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I want to thank you David McGrath for coming
Speaker 7: on and talking about Monster the Life and Crimes of
Speaker 7: Wayne Chapman. There is so much more to discover for
Speaker 7: people to read in this book.
Speaker 2: It's we've just.
Speaker 7: Touched on it in this ninety minutes. For those that
Speaker 7: might want to take a look at this, tell us
Speaker 7: when this release date is, and is there a Facebook
Speaker 7: page or anywhere where people might take a look at
Speaker 7: this more, and how what if anything else that they
Speaker 7: might be able to find you on.
Speaker 2: Social media.
Speaker 4: You can certainly find me on Twitter at David McGrath
Speaker 4: eleven b Dan If I could, I would like to
Speaker 4: last my email addresses David in the Grass, eleven Bisimbravo
Speaker 4: at email dot com. Anybody who listens to this, who Tiger,
Speaker 4: who has been a victim of sexual assault or please,
Speaker 4: you know, feel free to email me. I'm always here
Speaker 4: to listen.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: This book is because of my own sexual abuse, and
Speaker 4: these stories cannot be lost the time. And there's great
Speaker 4: people who do work on most like Melanie Perkins and
Speaker 4: I'm sort of picking up the mantle a little bit too,
Speaker 4: But the bottom line is we can't let these things
Speaker 4: get lost to history. Statistically, Wayne Chapman exists in your
Speaker 4: neighborhood right now, and for whatever reason, it's just these
Speaker 4: are kids that don't talk about in public, and I
Speaker 4: hope that we can this book can do a little
Speaker 4: bit to change that. And if there's somebody out there
Speaker 4: who's dealing with fallout from their own sexual assault. Then
Speaker 4: please email me, get in contact with me. I'm always
Speaker 4: here and I'd like to make that point above all them.
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you, Thank you so much, David McGrath. Monster
Speaker 7: The Life and Crimes of Wayne Chapman, released November eleventh.
Speaker 7: So thank you so much. You have a great evening,
Speaker 7: and thank you so much for this interview. Thank Jim.
Speaker 2: Good night,