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Speaker 1: In that way.

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Speaker 2: In human relationship with man or woman, or between a

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neighbor and so on, the image making is the process

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of registration, right. That is, when a wife says something ugly,

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to listen to it and end it, not to register it,

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you'd see. Or when the husband says something ugly, listen

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to it catholic edit, not carry it on. Then you

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will find that there is no image making at all,

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because if there is no image between the man and

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the woman, then relationship.

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Speaker 3: Are quite different, entirely different.

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Speaker 2: But when there is an image between the two, the

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relationship is between one thought opposed to one other. Right,

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And that we called relationship, which actually is not. It's

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just an idea that I am, that you're my wife

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or my girlfriend, just an idea. Do you get all this.

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Speaker 1: A merty, don't be playing man, ladies and gentlemen. The

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voice of reason has returned to the scene of the conversation.

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I am rejuvenated, back in the building, ready to cook,

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got a barn burner of a topic. Here's the thing,

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And of course this topic is coming from a bunch

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of conversations that I've had recently. And whether it's an

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intimate relationship or a friendship or family member. Man, you

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gotta translate who you really are so their perception of

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you can align with your translation of you. Nah, I'm

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not doing it. I'm gonna let you be confused as

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to who you think I am. Do you understand like

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when I was younger, I was with the smoke. I

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want to argue, I want to I want to do

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it all day. I wanna clown. I don't want to

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do that no more. It's a waste of time for me.

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Do you you feel what I'm saying, like I gotta

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be doing something else. When I was younger, I was

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with it. Yeah, let's let's let's get to it. You're confused,

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and this is why, because nobody knows me better than me.

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Do you understand I am the experience of me internally?

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You are the experience of me externally. You don't understand

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what the inner workings under the hood. I can translate

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myself to you, but I can't rewrite myself for you.

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A deeper investigation into weather intimacy. This is gonna be

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a hard topic, and I know a lot of people

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want to talk about it too. Listen, nonjudgmental space, you

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can call in. I want to hear your thoughts one

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eight hundred and nine twenty fifteen eighty Do you find

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yourself stuck in a way trying to explain and interpret

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and help your partner understand you have to learn the

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language of their perception in order for them to understand

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man and vice versa. I would say that's a vice

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versa thing. A deeper investigation into whether intimate mastery requires

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learning the language of your partner's perception without rewriting your

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own interior to make their interpretation of you true? Are

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you loving me? Or your interpretation of me?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: My god? True intimacy asks each partner to become fluent

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enough in the other person's perceptual world to understand how

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meaning gets made there. That fluency carries an obligation towards translation,

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not surrender. I may need to learn why my silence

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registers as rejection to you, why my directness lands as hostility,

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Why why are you angry? Why you start turned up?

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Because I'm being misunderstood, because I'm being marginalized. My point

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is being thrown away as if it's as if nothing

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has been said. And then if, if if I intensify

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all of a sudden, I'm not who I am, right,

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I'm somebody else. Do you see?

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Speaker 5: So?

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Speaker 1: I may need to learn why my silence registers as

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rejection to you, why my directness comes across as hostility,

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why my need for space awakens fear, or why an

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action I experienced as neutral right acquired an entirely different

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meaning inside of you. Perceptual bilingualism gives love that range.

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It allows two people to cross the distance between separate

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intent without requiring either person to abandon their own point

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of origin. Yes, I said perceptual bilingualism. No, it's not

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a clinical term. But I need to understand the vocabulary

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of your perception and you need to understand the vocabulary

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of mine, or we're gonna run aground. We're not gonna

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understand each other clearly, Do you understand? The deeper conflict

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begins when understanding another person's perception becomes a demand to

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reinterpret yourself through their perception. I won't do it. Have

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you ever had somebody or been with somebody and they

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loved everything about you until there was conflict and then

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everything about you is wrong? Wait, I'm a genius when

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it's all good, but then I'm an a hole when

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we got conflict and somebody saying, well, maybe you're an

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a hole when there's conflict. Yeah, perception, I want to know.

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Your experience of me deserves consideration. Your interpretation of me

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deserves examination. Many people can't stomach the examination of their

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interpretation of another person. They think my interpretation of you

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is the actual truth of who you really are. Well,

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let's go back to Alfred Korzibski. The map is not

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the territory. Your perception of me is a map of me,

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it's not the actual reality of me. And that perception

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could go through some filters, whatever broken relationship construct that

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raised you. Right, you're looking at that person through those filters.

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Your experience of me deserves consideration. Your interpretation of me

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deserves examination. Right neither automatically possesses the final authority over

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who I am, what I intend, or what exists inside

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of me. The same limitation applies to me. I cannot

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use self knowledge as immunity from what you observe. You

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cannot use impact as proof that you possess complete knowledge

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of my interior. Have you ever been truly sorry that

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there was a miscommunication and maybe you said something that

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you wish you didn't say. And you apologize for it,

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and you genuinely say, hey, I apologize for that. That

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was not my intention. I did not mean it, and

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a person turned around and says, yes, you did, totally

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throwing out your sincere apology and your sincere acknowledgement of

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something that you may have done. They throw it out

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as if it's not real. Intimacy requires enough humility for

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both forms of information to remain in the room, to

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remain in the environment right. This makes revisibility indispensable. A

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perception capable of love must remain capable of learning new

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behavior must have some power to disturb old conclusions. Clarification

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must remain eligible right to change meaning. Here's the clarify.

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I'm trying to clarify what I meant, and if you

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truly care about me, you would consider the clarification. If

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I matter, if I have meaning right, the living person

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must retain the right to contradict the image already formed

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of them. If you love me, I should be able

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to contradict the image you have of me. And I'm

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not talking about if I'm abusive or anything like that.

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I'm simply saying, if I said something that wasn't an

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alignment with your image. First off, you shouldn't take your

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image of me as the real mean anyway. Man, do

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you know how many people I've dated that said you

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the voice of reason? You should have the answer for that. Wait,

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you're gonna you're gonna bring up the radio. You the voice.

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So at no point in my life can I be

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confused about anything. I gotta have an answer on deck

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all the But wait a minute. When I do have answers,

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typically you rebuff those. I don't want your answers. Don't

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this ain't the radio. Don't come in here trying to

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I'm not on your cow. I don't hey what, don't

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try to teach me. But then you, the voice of reason,

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the irony again, the perception capable of love, must remain

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capable of learning new behavior, must have some power to

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disturb old conclusions. When we come forward the voice of reason,

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I'm going to open up the phone lines. Let's get started.

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Let's talk about tonight's conversation. Question is what is dialogue?

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Speaker 6: So dialogue is basically a new way of talking, and

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it's broken down into three parts mirroring, validating, and empathizing.

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And the mirroring is an experience where you listen to

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another person and you get what they're saying and don't

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deflect it. Validating is when you see the logic and

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what they're saying and you don't have to agree with it,

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but you see it and you honor it. And empathy

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is when you experience the emotions they have with what

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they're saying and you really understand that that's the experience. Well,

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the biggest impact that dialogue has owned couples is that

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it transforms the relationship. Incrementally makes it better, but it

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actually transforms the relationship because couples partners begin to see

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each other in a new way, and they begin to

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relate to each other in a new way. What happens

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when you do this dialogue process is that you create

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a place of emotional safety, and in the place of

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emotional safety, people who are there begin to fuel themselves,

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expressing themselves in a new and different way. They become

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vulnerable to each other. And the reason they become vulnerable

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is that in a safe place, there's no judgment. You're

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holding each other's reality, without judgment, without criticism, without any

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kind of blame or disagreement, even of it's simply them

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being themselves and when you hold people in that space,

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the otherness of each other begins to emerge with great

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delineation and clarity. You see the other as not you,

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and they see you as not them. And when that

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otherness emerges, then what can happen is connection at a

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very deep level. And we think that also what happens

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here is that love can be born, because love is,

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in fact, two people who are an other to each other,

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caring for each other's welfare and being an advocate of

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each other's potential, the fascinating part of the.

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Speaker 1: Other to each other. I love that. That was great?

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Who was that? Andy? He was cooking with the rarest Grease,

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Harville Hendricks ba bah bah bah he was cooking with

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the rares Grease. You know already know who these people are.

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I just love to ask Andy, Andy be keeping me

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on point here. Ish. Tonight's topic is one of those topics.

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Have you ever felt misunderstood by your partner over and

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over again? You feel like you're having the same conver

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or even your friends where sometimes their strength and just

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not responding. Oh, you going out of your way to

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misinterpret me. You making what I said align with what

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you think I meant. You don't want to know what

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I meant. You have no care for what I actually meant,

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because if you did, you would have did some investigation

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in your communication. You would have said, wait a minute,

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what do you mean by that? Can you expound before

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I give you my final evaluation? All right, let me

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say it again. A perception capable of love must remain

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capable of learning. If you're in a conversation with your friend,

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your lover, your family members, and you're not trying to

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learn from them, you're not communicating like I really want

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to know where you're coming from. I'm not trying to

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learn the language of your perception. I'm trying to impose

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my perception of who I think you are onto you.

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How many people have you dealt with that are like that?

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Twenty fifteen eighty listen to one of my new behaviors.

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Must have some power to disturb old conclusions. I've always

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thought that about you. Wait a minute, and then when

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they do something different, they now you're surprised. I never

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thought you would do that, of course, because you're leaning

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on old conclusions. Clarification must remain eligible to change meaning.

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In other words, if I bring clarity clarification for what

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is going on. You should be able to recontextualize that image.

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The living person must retain the right to contradict the

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image already formed of them. Once perception becomes impossible to revise,

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communication changes function. Explanation no longer carries new information. It

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becomes evidence possessed by a verdict already reached. When I

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come forward the voice of reason, we're going to continue

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cooking up this few right now.

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Speaker 7: So with that conceptual background, I'd like to attempt a

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description of empathy which would seem satisfactory to me today.

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I would no longer be termining it a state of empathy,

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which was in my earlier definition, because I believe it

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to be a process rather than a state, And perhaps

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I can capture that quality the way of being with

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another person, which is termed empathic as several facets. It

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means entering the private, perceptual world of the other and

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becoming thoroughly at home in it.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 7: It involves having sensitive, being sensitive moment to moment to

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the changing felt meanings.

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Speaker 1: Nah positives, hold on, hold on, is that my homeboy, Marshall? Wait?

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Who is that? That's positive? Unconditional positive regard Carl Rogers.

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Hold on, he said. Empathy is entering the perceptual world

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of another. I'm gonna let it. We're gonna start him over.

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But have you ever been grieving? Maybe you lost a job,

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you lost a girlfriend, you lost a boyfriend, uh, you

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lost a family member. And people will say I I'm

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gonna give you some time, and then they determine how

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much time you need. Then they come back talking crazy,

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as if you weren't grieving when they said they was

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gonna get So do you understand what I'm saying? People

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are so selfish Sometimes they want you to show up

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the way they need you when they need you. So

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in one moment, is I okay, I'm oh you you grieving?

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Oh this is heavy. Okay, I'm gonna give you a

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little time. Say a week go by, you should be good.

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Now we should have had a conversation. I've been trying

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to have. Wait, what so you gonna put a time

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limit on When it's been a week, you should be

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good and will come back talking to you as crazy

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as they did before. See, I done got to the

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point in my life when I stop talking to you.

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That's all the indication you need from me. I don't

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stop talking, man, play Carl Rogers man unconditional positive regard.

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Speaker 7: So with that conceptual background, I'd like to attempt a

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description of empathy which would seem satisfactory to me today.

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I would no longer be termining it a state of empathy,

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which was in my earlier definition, because I believe it

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to be a process rather than a state, and perhaps

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I can capture that quality. The way of being with

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another person, which is termed empathic as several facets. It

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means entering the private, perceptual world of the other and

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becoming thoroughly at home in it. It involves having sensed it,

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being said sensitive moment to moment, to the changing felt

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meanings which flow in this other person, to the fear

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or rage or tenderness or confusion or whatever that he

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or she is experiencing. It means temporarily living in his life,

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moving about in it.

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Speaker 1: Pause. Do you hear what he explained? Andy's shaking his head.

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Andy in here like damn, Because that's the real He's

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explaining the real reality of what it is to be

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in relationship with somebody and be in their perceptual reality

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from an empathetic lens. That's what it is Man, do

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you know how many people don't know how to be

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with another human being as their raw human selves? Carl

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Rogers is explaining it right there, Bring it back twenty

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seconds because he's on complete fire.

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Speaker 7: Being sensitive moment to moment, do the changing felt meanings

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which flow in this other person to the fear or

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rage or tenderness or confusion or whatever that he or

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she is experiencing. It means temporarily living in his life,

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moving about in it delicately without making judgments, sensing meanings

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of which he is scarcely aware, but not trying to

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uncover feelings of which he is totally unaware.

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Speaker 1: Pause without making judgments. Man, if you going through something

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and you say something crazy to me, it's up and

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it's stuck. Am I lying? Andy? I'm not even here

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to understand what you're going through. Can't you see I'm

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trying to help you. So because you care about me,

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that means you get to disrespect me all in the

283
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name of care. Right let him finish, Andy, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 7: It includes communicating your sensings of his world as you

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look with fresh and unfrightened eyes at elements of which

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he is fearful. It means frequently checking with him as

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to the accuracy of your sensings and being guided by

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his responses. You are a confident companion to him in

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his world by pinting to the possible meanings in the

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flow of his or herds.

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Speaker 1: Wait, wait, bring it back, Andy, at least thirty more seconds.

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He's just dropping too much, he said. You a companion

293
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in his world. You're not in control. You're walking with

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his process. Do you understand being in that perceptual world? No,

295
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don't nobody communicate like that. What's wrong with you? You got

296
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to get right so I can be good again with you.

297
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Speaker 7: Go ahead andie this world as you look with fresh

298
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and unfrightened eyes at elements of which he is fearful.

299
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It means frequently checking with him as to the accuracy

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of your sensings and being guided by his responses. You

301
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are a confident companion to him in his world. By

302
00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:35,200
pinting to the possible meanings in the flow of his

303
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or her experiencing, you help him to focus on this

304
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:45,200
useful type of reference, to experience his meanings more fully,

305
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and to move forward in his or her experiencing.

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Speaker 1: Nah, this is too good to be true. Andy. People

307
00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:59,640
don't do that. People only care about their time, their

308
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co attribution, and their energy to another person, and ultimately

309
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,279
they want to pay off from that. They could care

310
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,000
less about the person they're dealing with. Listen what I

311
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Once perception becomes impossible to revise, Communication changes function, Explanation

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00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:24,079
no longer carries new information. It becomes evidence possessed by

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a verdict already reached. The more one partner explains, the

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more they may find themselves editing the source rather than

315
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:40,240
improving the translations. DC That marks the threshold. I can

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translate my experience into language you can receive. I can

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reconsider myself when your perception reveals something I have failed

318
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,920
to see. But I cannot rewrite my interior merely to

319
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:59,759
make your interpretation of me correct. There are so many

320
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,359
people who just don't want to know what's going on

321
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with you. They just want the end result that they

322
00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:10,079
showed up to receive from you. Listen, when we come forward,

323
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,200
the voice of reason is going to keep this fire lit.

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Speaker 4: I was working with twenty three psychiatrists in one community,

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00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:26,559
and I was giving them an exercise on empathic connection,

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and I asked them to write down what they would

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say to people to empathically connect with them who expressed

328
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:42,480
certain things. So one of the things that I've said,

329
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in the role of a patient that came to see

330
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,279
them was, I'm feeling so depressed. I don't know that

331
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I want to keep alive. I think the world would

332
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be better off without me. And I asked each of

333
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,440
them to write down what would be an imp ethic

334
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:07,039
reaction to this person's statement. I would then ask them

335
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:12,400
to hand in these responses they made, and then I said,

336
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I'm going to read each of these out loud, and

337
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,279
I'd like you to raise your hand. If you were

338
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,680
that person expressing this pain, that you would really feel

339
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,799
an empathic connection, an understanding of what you were feeling

340
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and needing hands.

341
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Speaker 1: Who is this Andy? I think I know? Is is

342
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:38,240
this Marshall? That Rosenberg?

343
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Speaker 4: Right?

344
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I'm gonna go back to them, but hold tight.

345
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:50,119
You can't be empathic if you're holding a grudge. That's

346
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,599
why most of y'all misinterpret what your person is saying.

347
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,400
They have offended the image you've held in your mine

348
00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:06,960
about them, and once they've offended that image, you start

349
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:14,640
building a case file, a dossier. This is what it

350
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,519
is when the image is defiled. Now you can defile

351
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,759
the person. It could be a person you once respected.

352
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,359
And why is it that, in your misinterpretation or your

353
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,880
declaration of what you think the person is, you get

354
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,920
to be nasty, disrespectful, condescending, and then wrap it all

355
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000
up as the truth. Oh, I'm just telling the truth.

356
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:54,680
What I can't translate myself to fit your perception of me.

357
00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:01,880
I'm no longer going listen when I'm explaining something to you.

358
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,319
That's me caring enough to do so. Right, I'm saying, Hey,

359
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,640
how you see it is not exactly the way it is.

360
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:17,079
Let me give you some context, let me expound and

361
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:27,119
share with you what's going on. If you right, or

362
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,759
if you are like inflexible and you don't want to

363
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:37,440
change your perspective after I've given you context, then that

364
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:42,119
means you've already passed the verdict before you got the information.

365
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,720
You see, I can't. I'm at a point now where

366
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:58,000
there's power in skipping the translation. I can translate my

367
00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:05,920
experience into language you might be able to receive. I

368
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:14,200
can also reconsider myself when your perception reveals something I

369
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,440
may have failed to see some blind spots that I

370
00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:24,240
didn't see. I can also rewrite well before I even

371
00:30:24,279 --> 00:30:27,680
go there, let me stop, let me say it again.

372
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:33,440
I can reconsider myself when your perception reveals something I

373
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,400
have failed to see. So when you're talking to your

374
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:39,759
partner and they point out something that you may have missed,

375
00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:42,279
and then you come back and say, you know what,

376
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,119
You're right, I did miss that. Thank you for that clarification.

377
00:30:50,039 --> 00:30:57,920
Let me reorganize my perception around the blind spots you revealed.

378
00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:04,279
And then they act like they're superior to you because

379
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:08,839
they showed you something. And first off, it is a

380
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,000
gift to be acknowledged, and that goes both ways. When

381
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:16,680
you acknowledge, like if your partner actually shows you a

382
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,200
blind spot, thank you, that's gratitude, thank you so much

383
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,039
for showing me that. I didn't see that. But they

384
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,400
act like they're superior to you because they did that,

385
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,880
and that reinforces their sense of rightness. You remember the

386
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,880
last time I showed you something you missed? Do you

387
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:47,039
understand what I'm saying? Here's the central question. Can two

388
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:51,920
people learn each other's perceptual language deeply enough to understand

389
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:57,839
one another while remaining free enough to revise what they believe,

390
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,720
disagree without erasing each other, and allow the person they

391
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:10,039
love to remain larger than the interpretation they have formed

392
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:20,920
of them. It's I don't seen it. People can go

393
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,480
It's almost like they going through something. Oh, this person

394
00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:27,319
is going through something. They're experiencing grief. I'm gonna wait

395
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,200
for the grief to subside before I continue my war

396
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,519
with them, the war of who I think they are

397
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:45,039
versus who they really are, and that a deeper I

398
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:49,519
can translate myself to you, I can't rewrite myself for you.

399
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,559
A deeper investigation into whether healthy relationship communication ends and

400
00:32:55,839 --> 00:33:00,720
self abandonment begins when your partner's perception demands a different

401
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,200
version of you Gosh one eight hundred nine twenty fifteen

402
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:15,720
eighty translation versus alteration? Geesh, are you loving me or

403
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,640
your interpretation of me? What happens to emotional intimacy when

404
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,799
your image of your partner becomes more powerful than the

405
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:30,839
person standing in front of you? Gosh, I can't become

406
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:36,039
your version of me? How about that? I simply can't

407
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:42,279
become your version of me. A deeper investigation and intriguing

408
00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:47,680
investigation into whether understanding your partner requires learning their perspective

409
00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:58,759
without surrendering your identity to their interpretation. When your perception

410
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:06,920
of me becomes when I come forward, I'm gonna give

411
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,000
you to rest it out. When this is on fire tonight,

412
00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:11,159
we got callers calling it. We're about to take it

413
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:11,920
over the top.

414
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 8: So let's start with what I heard. Men have used

415
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,400
you as a sex object. Okay. There's a lot of

416
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:31,760
women here and men who can identify with that. Okay,

417
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:34,559
so let's hear what you've written.

418
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,559
Speaker 9: I am angry and saddened by I could put so

419
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:48,000
many names in here, but I just wrote men.

420
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:56,079
Speaker 8: Because they win my trust and then they betray me. Okay,

421
00:34:56,159 --> 00:35:01,480
So what's an example of Okay, turn that around. Let's

422
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,599
turn it around that I win my trust and then

423
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:09,480
I betray myself. I win their trust and then I

424
00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:10,159
betray them.

425
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 2: I win their trust and then I betray them.

426
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,599
Speaker 8: And how do you do that? By not telling them

427
00:35:18,679 --> 00:35:24,199
how I really feel? Yes? Yes, by not telling them

428
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,679
how she really feels.

429
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:29,559
Speaker 7: Because I'm afraid to show my pain to them.

430
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 8: And because you don't let them know, they just keep

431
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,880
doing what they're doing. Thinking you both agree on it, right, Yeah.

432
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: But I can't find that voice, honey, I mean.

433
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 7: I want to find it.

434
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:49,079
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm afraid to say it. Yeah. If I want

435
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,440
something from my husband, I can do all kinds of

436
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:56,679
lies about around it. I can be his sex goddess.

437
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,880
I can cook him as great meal. I can do

438
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,599
all this stuff so he'll give me what I want,

439
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,559
you see. Or I can just say, you know, honey,

440
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:09,519
I'm going to do all of this and then will

441
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:11,719
you do this? Well, first I'll ask him, will you

442
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,800
just do this? And if he says no, I say, well,

443
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,760
what about this barter system?

444
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:17,159
Speaker 3: You know?

445
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 8: What if I cook for you? What if I love you?

446
00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:23,400
What if I you know? Or at least pretend you

447
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,199
know all of this because you do or you don't?

448
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,760
You do, you do, you don't? You know, depending on

449
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:39,519
what you get or what you want. So I can

450
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:41,960
be honest with him, But you see, what it could

451
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:47,880
cost me is what I want. So I delude myself.

452
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,440
I'm his sex goddess, I'm the great cook. I sacrifice

453
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,800
my whole life and he still doesn't give me what

454
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,280
I want. So I'm angry at him. I think he's psychic,

455
00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:05,480
you know, And it turns out he's not. He's not.

456
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:08,840
So now I just ask but I don't try to

457
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,679
buy it with my body, or am I cooking? See now,

458
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,440
I have honest sex and I cook honestly. I do

459
00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:19,920
it for me.

460
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, looking too, Ladies and gentlemen. Who the Voice of

461
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:36,280
Reason is on complete fire tonight? Andy? Who is that Byron? Katie?

462
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,559
Got got got got got got out here cooking with

463
00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:42,199
the rares Grease? Tonight's topic is a deep one man.

464
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,440
We got callers on the line. I want to get

465
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,280
to him, our number two, the Voice of Reason, non

466
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,199
judgmental zone. If you want to join the conversation, all

467
00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:54,320
you have to do is call us at one eight

468
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,960
hundred and nine twenty fifteen eighty. When your perception of

469
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:04,800
me becomes more real to you than I am. How projection,

470
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,960
relationship history, and fixed interpretations can make two people stop

471
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:16,960
encountering each other in the present. Is your relationship experiencing that?

472
00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:21,840
How long do I have to keep explaining who I

473
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:29,480
am to you? Hey? An intriguing look into when relationship

474
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:36,760
communications stop creating understanding and start becoming an endless trial

475
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:47,440
against your partner's perception. I'm exhausted explaining who I am. See,

476
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,360
here's the thing I have to explain who I am

477
00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:56,760
because you've never accepted who I am. You're only on

478
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,480
board and at the table for negotiation with the version

479
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:08,559
of me that you accept that you want. Huh one

480
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,719
fifteen eighty You heard my words? But did you hear me?

481
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,119
Why couples can communicate constantly yet remain strangers to the

482
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:27,079
meaning behind each other's words? Yikes? Let me ask it

483
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:30,199
another question another way, because I'm tired of playing with y'all.

484
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:38,039
Are you fluent in the person you love? Are you

485
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:42,079
fluent in them? Because your damn show? Fluent in you?

486
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:51,519
Because whenever there's a conflict, you're understanding Trump's theirs, don't don't,

487
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,559
don't act brand new tonight because I'm calling it out?

488
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:03,559
Are you fluent in the person you love? Fascinating investigation

489
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:13,480
exploration into perceptual bilingualism, partner understanding and whether two people

490
00:40:13,559 --> 00:40:19,440
can learn each other's language without losing fluency in their own?

491
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:24,239
Do you really know me? Are you concerned about what

492
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:31,400
I'm concerned about? Stop making me prove I'm not who

493
00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:38,559
you decided I am. What happens when every explanation, apology, emotion,

494
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:44,159
and silence gets used to confirm your partner's existing story

495
00:40:44,199 --> 00:40:48,840
about you fifteen eighty. We got callers on the line.

496
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,840
I'm gonna get him in here right now. Who's been

497
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,360
on the longest, Denver, Colorado CALLI from Denver, Colorado. What

498
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,920
are your thoughts on tonight's topic.

499
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 10: I'm triggered and I don't do it.

500
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: You should be triggered.

501
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:21,599
Speaker 10: Yes, I definitely appreciate the topic as I was. I've

502
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:26,719
experienced this recently with the companion of mine where it

503
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,360
was communicating. They sent a message and I just sent

504
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:35,480
what I thought in the moment that would be funny back.

505
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:40,880
And I did did contemplate before I sent what I

506
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,280
sent to ask for clarification, but I pushed it. I

507
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,800
plowed straight past that thought and just went to straight

508
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:58,239
to what I thought. And Yeah, again, I definitely appreciate

509
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,320
the topic tonight because I'm like, totally confirms that I

510
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,159
should spend more time doing some investigative work when I'm

511
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,440
unclear about something that someone is saying, because that's how

512
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:16,679
so how mess becomes mess in relationships and resentments become resentments.

513
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 1: Well, let's go even deeper. You said investigative work, Well,

514
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,199
what kind of investigative work. Let's play the word game.

515
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:29,800
Investigative work is one way? What's some other ways?

516
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,199
Speaker 10: I would just say, asking a simple question in the

517
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:36,480
moment to get clarity.

518
00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: That's investigative. I like that. That's investigative. Let's see it.

519
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,079
Are there other ways?

520
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 11: Silence?

521
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:58,159
Speaker 1: Oh? Mindfulness? Wow? How novel of an idea? Mindfulness? How

522
00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:03,840
about sit down? Just be still? Ain't that what big

523
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,119
Mama say? Here's a piece of candy? Be still? So

524
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,519
that's the mindfulness? What else?

525
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 10: I think empathy too.

526
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: Goes along with yes, yes, now we're cooking. You've given

527
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,159
them a blueprint. You said investigate. So is the investigation

528
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,199
an inward investigation like self inquiry, like I'm looking inside

529
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,039
in crey? Right?

530
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,519
Speaker 10: I think there is that, and then there's also, you know,

531
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:40,440
with your loved one as well with whoever you're doing

532
00:43:40,519 --> 00:43:41,920
with this outside of you.

533
00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

534
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:48,039
Speaker 1: So you gave the investigative piece, you gave the mindfulness piece. Uh,

535
00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:52,360
then you gave an empathy piece trying to understand where

536
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,119
they're coming from. Right? Do you think the lack of

537
00:43:56,159 --> 00:44:02,519
those three things is what actually creates this kind of intransient,

538
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:11,599
kind of intractable, you know, unforgiveness energy that many people experience.

539
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, because if you have many moments like that. It

540
00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:19,280
just piles up and piles up and piles up, or

541
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,639
packs down and packs down and packs down until somebody explodes.

542
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,039
And then maybe something that is in a moment not

543
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,079
necessarily a big deal. It's like, whoa, you're blown up

544
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:34,599
about that, right, And it's like, nah, it was two

545
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:37,639
months worth of stuff for two years, or you know whatever.

546
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:41,760
How many other times I suppressed my thoughts or went

547
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,920
too deep into my thoughts and fun out, went down

548
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:52,039
the rabbit hole of my own deceptive illusions, started painting

549
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:54,039
a picture of this person that wasn't true.

550
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: Wow, I love it. I love it. This is good stuff. Cally's.

551
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:03,840
So you're on the smooth Sounds of Zoe Williams's Voice

552
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,199
of Reason live on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. I just

553
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,400
have one question to ask you, young lady. Guess what

554
00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:11,480
you just did.

555
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 10: Brought Denver into the building.

556
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:17,119
Speaker 1: Denver, Colorado is in the building. If you want to

557
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:19,239
bring your city in the building to join this non

558
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,039
judgmental conversation, all you gotta do is call us at

559
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:24,599
one eight hundred nine twenty fifteen eighty. Listen, we got

560
00:45:24,639 --> 00:45:27,719
more callers on the line. Let's get them in here.

561
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,679
You already know what it is. We got the legendary

562
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,960
Deaconess Nicki from the SIP is in the building, Nicki.

563
00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:38,440
What are your thoughts on tonight's topic?

564
00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:46,519
Speaker 10: So the fam Hey, Hey, food for thought.

565
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: Food for thought. Here we go.

566
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 11: Isn't it interesting? Particularly in family relationships around grieving, that

567
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:03,719
experience brings forward this word perception, which has to do

568
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:11,079
with experiencing people who you say you love through your

569
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:19,239
senses see here touch tastemau. I find often in familial

570
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:25,039
relationships where perception is concerned, the people who you have

571
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:29,679
the most trouble with understand that perception is their reality.

572
00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:40,519
They're not necessarily in tune with the deeper, particularly if

573
00:46:40,559 --> 00:46:44,519
you're a person who is showing up real as yourself

574
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:51,480
to people who don't operate in real self realms. They

575
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:57,800
only stay in perceived realms. That's why it's easy for

576
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,480
them to say, there's a times on how long you

577
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:03,840
get to be grieving before I come back to you

578
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:16,480
with whatever that it is, because in reality, one cannot

579
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,159
put a time stamp on another person's grief. You can

580
00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:25,639
observe their behavior to determine where they are in it,

581
00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:29,440
but not if you operate in the realm of perception.

582
00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:42,079
Then you asked earlier what happened when in relationships there

583
00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:46,039
is a breakdown in the translation. Well, particularly if you've

584
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:48,920
had an opportunity to be exposed to the real me

585
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:54,440
and you still operate in perception, what happens is you

586
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,280
get to experience the absence of me.

587
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:05,079
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, hold on, don't go nowhere, Nikki, Nikki out here?

588
00:48:05,199 --> 00:48:10,599
Why now you get to experience the void when we

589
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,559
come forward? More from Niki from the sill.

590
00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: This is UH the practice of the fourth mindful extraining, loving, peace,

591
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:30,960
loving speech, and deep listening. H A bodhisa is someone

592
00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:35,800
who can talk. He can speak with a kind of

593
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:47,000
language called gentle loving speech. Is someone who can listen

594
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:53,079
with compassion. And if you can for three days, you

595
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,679
might become able and you might talk to him or

596
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,920
to her with that kind of langue wish and you

597
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:05,280
might listen to him to her with that kind of compassion.

598
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,920
You don't have to stractice ten years in order to

599
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:19,480
do that. A few days maybe enough. Father that I

600
00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:26,840
know you have suffered so much in the past many years,

601
00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:31,800
I was not able to help you to suffer less. Instead,

602
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:39,800
I have reacted angrily in such a way that makes

603
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,920
the situation worse. That they is not my intention to

604
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,519
make you suffer. That's only because I did not see

605
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:52,000
the suffering in you. I did not understand the suffering

606
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:55,559
in you. So please that they tell me what is

607
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:59,880
in your heart. Tell me what is in the difficulties,

608
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:07,559
no despair, the conflict in your heart. Please help me

609
00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:11,880
so that I will understand. If I understand, I will

610
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,760
not act like the way I have in the past.

611
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,039
Please help me. If you don't have me, who will help.

612
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,039
That is the kind of loving speech, kind speech that

613
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,039
you can you can do, you can heuse.

614
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:35,119
Speaker 1: That's the homie teach not Han rest in peace. Born

615
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:38,880
in nineteen twenty six, passed away in nineteen twenty two.

616
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,800
He was speaking of the energy of a bodies satphah.

617
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,880
Just being in the very presence of a bodies satfah

618
00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:50,840
uh induces some type of self realization. And he was saying,

619
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:56,559
you only need two days in their presence, not years.

620
00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:02,320
That was very interesting and I'm a big believer in that.

621
00:51:03,679 --> 00:51:09,639
I believe the mask creates perception, right, and we have

622
00:51:09,679 --> 00:51:12,360
a perception of ourselves, which is the mask. We want

623
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,519
people to accept that perception. We try to project it

624
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:18,920
out onto others, and then we have a perception of

625
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:24,559
others and we want them to accept our perception of them.

626
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,360
I'm gonna tell you right now, I don't give a

627
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,920
damn who you think I am. Whatever you think of

628
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:38,440
me can't be true because it's coming from you. It

629
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:43,480
can't be true because I'm me. Now. You might be

630
00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:46,400
able to experience me in a certain way. You might

631
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:52,440
be able to ascertain from your perspective through your lens,

632
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:57,760
maybe a fractal right of the totality of who I

633
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,280
am as a being, But your definition of that fractal

634
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:10,760
means absolutely nothing to me. Stop making me prove I'm

635
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,119
not who you decided I am. And many people in

636
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:21,119
relationships are dating the image, are loving on the image right,

637
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,679
and this is why they never make contact with the

638
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:32,360
real person. Nikki from the sip, stay with me. I'm

639
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,400
gonna carry you to the other side because I want

640
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,760
you to have time to land your plane and then

641
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,039
we're going to go to OKAC. When we come forward,

642
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,000
the callers are still coming in. Let's get it today.

643
00:52:43,039 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 12: I'll talk about consciousness and the interface theory of perception.

644
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,840
One third of your brain's cortex is engaged in vision.

645
00:52:51,639 --> 00:52:55,840
When you simply open your eyes and look around, you're

646
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:00,360
using billions of neurons and trillions of synapses just to

647
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:05,559
see the world in this room. This might be a

648
00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:09,519
bit surprising to most of us because to the extent

649
00:53:09,559 --> 00:53:11,000
that we think about vision at all, we think of

650
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:14,079
it as like a camera. Vision is just a process

651
00:53:14,159 --> 00:53:17,159
of taking a snapshot of a world that exists out there,

652
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:20,599
that has objects, colors, shapes, and motions. So there is

653
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:23,039
a part of vision that is like a camera, and

654
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:26,440
that is the eye. The eye has a lens which

655
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,360
focuses an image on the back of the eye, where

656
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,320
there's a piece of tissue called the retina, about one

657
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,719
hundred and twenty million photoreceptors and two hundred million inter

658
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,920
neurons that do sophisticated processing, a very very sophisticated piece

659
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,920
of computational hardware. It's also an example of unintelligent design.

660
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,400
The light goes through the lens and it has to

661
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,159
go through all the inter neurons and blood vessels before

662
00:53:56,199 --> 00:53:59,800
it reaches the photoreceptors which are behind. That's really bad.

663
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,760
That's true of vertebrate eyes, thought eyes. They have it right.

664
00:54:07,159 --> 00:54:09,440
The photo receptors are in front, the interneurons and the

665
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,639
blood vessels are behind. We got the B model, So

666
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,599
why all this horsepower in the brain just to look.

667
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,360
The idea from cognitive neuroscience is that perception vision is

668
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,280
really a reality engine. In real time, you're creating all

669
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:33,559
the depths, colors, motions, shapes, textures and objects that you see.

670
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,280
So you are creating the reality that you experience right now.

671
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,519
You're not just taking a snapshot of a world that

672
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:45,719
was already there. So, for example, just a couple concrete examples,

673
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,400
this table and that table have exactly the same shape

674
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,559
of the tabletop. One might look low, gosh.

675
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:59,679
Speaker 1: Who was that, Andy Donald Hoffman? I let your reality down.

676
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,360
I didn't let you down. You had a reality of

677
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,639
me that I let down. Gosh, this is why you

678
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:11,960
can't see me as another human being that's flawed like you.

679
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,079
I let your reality of me down. The name of

680
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:20,159
sweet baby raised barbecue sauce. Let me get Nikki in

681
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,719
here to finish her final thought. Then we're going to Okay,

682
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:29,199
see Nikki, please land your plain sweetheart the song. If

683
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,400
you don't know me by now ooh, simply read.

684
00:55:34,599 --> 00:55:43,119
Speaker 13: Okay, Now, it is not a coincidence that that song resonates,

685
00:55:43,159 --> 00:55:47,000
particularly as it rates to this topic, because that song

686
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:51,440
isn't talking about a perception. It's talking it's not talking

687
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,239
about a performer person. It is talking about the real you,

688
00:55:56,599 --> 00:56:03,599
whoever you are. And when people are sincere in knowing

689
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:09,440
the reallyion, we don't have to talk about translating you

690
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:15,840
over and over and over again. So if you need

691
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:22,199
that translation, particularly after significant exposure passed the three days,

692
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:28,239
for example, then perhaps you will understand better with the

693
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:39,519
absence of me. People generally get clearer when their absence, when.

694
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:49,079
Speaker 1: They got just themselves. Hey, Nikki, I love you to death.

695
00:56:49,159 --> 00:56:52,079
You already know that, right? You know that? Right, Nikki?

696
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: You know.

697
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,599
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Guess what you just did about to sip.

698
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 13: In the building and I still love it.

699
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,679
Speaker 1: We love you. Mississippi is in the building because of

700
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,639
Nikki from the sip. But hey, is this our first

701
00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:13,519
call from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma is in the building, Duke?

702
00:57:13,639 --> 00:57:16,400
What up? What are your thoughts on tonight's topic? And

703
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,119
because this is your first call? I gotta tell you

704
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:21,159
no profanity talk to us?

705
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 5: What else with you? Thoe?

706
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: What's up?

707
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:24,559
Speaker 9: Good?

708
00:57:24,559 --> 00:57:27,199
Speaker 1: Brother man.

709
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,119
Speaker 5: I mean, uh, I thought you I thought you was

710
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:32,199
going in and I want to comment on the specifically

711
00:57:32,239 --> 00:57:34,400
two points that you made as far as and I

712
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,119
got my phone on speaker. If I need to take

713
00:57:36,159 --> 00:57:37,559
it off, I can if its.

714
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: You sound pretty good right now? Yeah, you sound pretty good.

715
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:43,079
Just no profanity and we good. What are your thoughts

716
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:43,719
on the topic?

717
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 5: So, yeah, you were speaking about you know, can you

718
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,440
speak your the person? And you're in you're in a

719
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,480
relationship with can you speak the language? And the other

720
00:57:54,599 --> 00:57:57,840
topic is living up to other people's expectations. I do

721
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,840
think these things are parallel, kind the one and the same.

722
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,559
They kind of butchets off of each other. And I

723
00:58:02,599 --> 00:58:06,880
will say that I can speak my significant other language,

724
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,679
but do I want to know? Because I'll end up

725
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,039
play I'll end up play caten and compromising on ship

726
00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:18,840
on things. Excuse excuse me, I apologize, end up compromising

727
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,280
on things that I don't want to and that and

728
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,239
that goes into the living up to other people's expectations.

729
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 7: Right.

730
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:29,559
Speaker 5: I think men are coming into themselves and realizing that

731
00:58:29,719 --> 00:58:32,880
we don't have to live up into up to nobody's expectations,

732
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:33,360
but our.

733
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: Own hold on Now you can't say in one breath

734
00:58:41,519 --> 00:58:44,880
you don't want to speak their language because you wind up,

735
00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:49,360
you know, play Caten. Then I'm gonna say, is that

736
00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:55,760
their problem or your problem?

737
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 5: I'm gonna say it's a relationship issue.

738
00:58:59,239 --> 00:59:03,599
Speaker 1: Nah, it's it's a strength issue. It's an internal strength issue.

739
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,480
If you play Caten, who they didn't make you play Kate?

740
00:59:08,719 --> 00:59:12,719
You did, so why would you blame them for play Kating.

741
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 5: I'm not blaming anybody for play Caden. What I'm saying

742
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:25,639
is society has these rules already in place. For example,

743
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,320
monogamy is the norm. What if I don't want to

744
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:36,880
deal with monogamy with it exactly. But what I'm saying

745
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,039
to you as a young man, it was hard for

746
00:59:39,079 --> 00:59:41,360
me to say that. Now that I'm in my mere forties,

747
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,159
I'm coming into myself and I don't have to play

748
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:46,960
k right. I don't have to live up to these

749
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,639
expectations that the world put on me, or that you're

750
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:51,519
trying to put on me. I can say, get with

751
00:59:51,559 --> 00:59:56,599
this program, right, I'm accepting. I'm accepting. I'm accepting responsibility

752
00:59:56,639 --> 00:59:59,760
because I think that in my younger years I did

753
01:00:00,079 --> 01:00:03,280
try to conform to what the world around me said

754
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,119
I should be, and I don't want to live up

755
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:08,360
to those expectations. I'm a man.

756
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,559
Speaker 1: You were young, and I have my home. Yeah, you

757
01:00:10,639 --> 01:00:13,000
were young, and that's okay. It sounds like you found

758
01:00:13,079 --> 01:00:17,239
your strength. But again, be comfortable with saying when I

759
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,639
was young, I was weak and now I'm stronger and

760
01:00:20,679 --> 01:00:24,079
I can stand on my own. Oftentimes men are so

761
01:00:24,239 --> 01:00:27,960
afraid of the word weakness that they can't be honest

762
01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:32,440
about the time when they were weak. I'm simply listening

763
01:00:32,519 --> 01:00:36,440
to you talk and you're talking about play caton. That's

764
01:00:36,519 --> 01:00:39,760
weakness you talking about. You understand what I'm saying. Just

765
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,760
be honest and say, you know what, I was weak

766
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,760
at that moment. I'm not weak like that no more.

767
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,320
Now I can stand on the truth of who I am.

768
01:00:47,639 --> 01:00:48,480
Does that make sense?

769
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 5: No, that makes absolutely sense. And I want to take

770
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,000
it a bit further because I think that also you know,

771
01:00:56,039 --> 01:00:58,679
and you probably won't agree with me on this, but

772
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,960
I would even throw religion into the mix too. I

773
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,000
don't want to. I don't want I don't want to

774
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,559
agree to those terms. You feel me and you won't

775
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:09,480
you won't take it that far. But also, these are

776
01:01:09,559 --> 01:01:12,039
terms and conditions that other people are projecting on meat

777
01:01:12,039 --> 01:01:14,199
that are not my own, and I don't have to

778
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,440
accept as a.

779
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,599
Speaker 1: Man hundred percent. Wait, that's a hundred perent. I agree

780
01:01:18,639 --> 01:01:20,559
with that one hundred percent. But let me ask you this.

781
01:01:21,239 --> 01:01:21,719
How old are you?

782
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 13: Brother?

783
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: You said you're in your forties, right, forty three? Forty three?

784
01:01:26,039 --> 01:01:28,519
Come on, grown man. I love it. I love what

785
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:34,159
you're doing here. But do you speak Aramaic, Hebrew, Aderbic, Greek?

786
01:01:34,599 --> 01:01:35,039
Speaker 5: I don't.

787
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,679
Speaker 1: Then, don't back off of religion until you study it

788
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,360
all the way to the bone to the bone marrow. See,

789
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:47,199
it's easy to quit something before you learned it. See,

790
01:01:47,239 --> 01:01:50,960
I've studied it, so I am qualified to go. No,

791
01:01:51,239 --> 01:01:55,039
I'm good. I see how you change the translation? The

792
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:58,840
translation in twenty twenty six, it's different than the translation

793
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,960
in nineteen ninety six, which is different than the translation

794
01:02:02,039 --> 01:02:06,159
in nineteen fifty six. See, I've studied. Oh, I see

795
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:08,840
you trying to hide that word there? Oh? Why are you?

796
01:02:09,039 --> 01:02:13,400
Why is this word still transliterated? What's the difference between

797
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:19,880
translation and transliteration? See, if you don't know, don't back out.

798
01:02:20,519 --> 01:02:22,480
Figure do you understand? What do you understand?

799
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,239
Speaker 5: What I'm saying that's fair and.

800
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: Stay right there. Don't go nowhere. No, don't go nowhere.

801
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,559
I need you stay right there, don't go nowhere. Okay,

802
01:02:30,559 --> 01:02:33,519
se is on the line, he cooking. When we come forward,

803
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:34,719
more heat.

804
01:02:34,519 --> 01:02:35,599
Speaker 2: From the v O R.

805
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: We need the black version that simply read did not

806
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:45,880
create this song. Simply read version is a remake. I

807
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,639
need the soul and grit's version I need, we need

808
01:02:51,559 --> 01:02:53,840
something was missing. Did y'all you see the way he

809
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,400
came in and the grit wasn't there. I need the

810
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,480
grit where Uncle Tony at Tony said we need black

811
01:03:00,519 --> 01:03:05,039
people on the show. Here we go see this that

812
01:03:05,079 --> 01:03:09,199
black church, right, I gotta understand this, that break up

813
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,159
church music. Now, baby, I know the difference. Come on,

814
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:15,320
that's wheat right at wrong.

815
01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 14: My, my, my, I ain't gonna do nothing, so up

816
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:26,719
said I have that.

817
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:36,039
Speaker 9: My question is how can we maintain our own entailor

818
01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:39,679
to your identity and a relationship, especially a close one,

819
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,199
without compromising me in take other.

820
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:49,079
Speaker 1: Strock listen, I wanted I wanted to cook because that

821
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,400
was a new Ramdas clip and he was gonna cook.

822
01:03:52,639 --> 01:03:56,840
But my caller, Duke from OKAC is on the line,

823
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:58,480
and I want him to have a little bit more

824
01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:00,880
time to say what he needs to say, but he

825
01:04:01,039 --> 01:04:06,519
must not use profanity. Duke from OKC, get back in

826
01:04:06,639 --> 01:04:09,679
here your thoughts, man, Come on, share with me.

827
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,639
Speaker 5: You were cooking, man, You was cooking too, And I

828
01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:15,880
appreciate you for letting me go. And I apologize for

829
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,960
you know, talking out of bounds. But like we were saying,

830
01:04:20,039 --> 01:04:22,760
you made the point as far as just like maybe

831
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,480
I haven't studied enough. Right, well, then the owners, Well,

832
01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:28,719
the onus is on you, then, sir, because I would

833
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,800
challenge you to tell me and your audience something profound

834
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,280
that you learned in another language that I didn't in English,

835
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,400
that you may have to make make me look in

836
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:38,199
a different manner.

837
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,119
Speaker 1: Nope, the onus is not on me. You came here

838
01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:45,519
with your own purpose. The onness is not on me.

839
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:50,239
It's on you to discover. But you found me, nonetheless,

840
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,880
right indeed, all right then, so it's not on me

841
01:04:56,559 --> 01:04:59,800
to point you in the right direction. You found the

842
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:05,559
which is why you're here right now. But again, if

843
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:08,079
you understand what you're saying, you're saying, I'm not going

844
01:05:08,159 --> 01:05:12,280
to be beholden to any concept or construct, right your

845
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:17,800
perception of me, the book's perception of me, the religion's

846
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:22,599
perception of that's what you're saying, correct.

847
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,159
Speaker 5: I'm saying that I am entitled to create my.

848
01:05:25,199 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: Own one hundred percent. So look, we walking the same path,

849
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:34,639
so I'm not beholden. Then if we're on the same path,

850
01:05:34,679 --> 01:05:35,639
we're learning together.

851
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 7: So I.

852
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 5: I agree. I agree to a certain extent because my brother,

853
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,440
I still think you have hurdles, and that is the

854
01:05:46,519 --> 01:05:50,039
religious hurdles, because like you're telling me that, maybe I

855
01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:53,119
don't know enough. But I'm thinking that because I don't

856
01:05:53,159 --> 01:05:57,280
know the language. I have read translations and transliterations, and

857
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,320
I read a lot. Also, I got a nice little

858
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,800
library myself, nice right, and I have not. I have

859
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,880
not come to the same conclusion that you have. And

860
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,280
maybe you may be more well studied, and maybe we

861
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,000
can have this conversation about religion and maybe you can

862
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:15,559
enlighten me on things because I come from a I

863
01:06:15,599 --> 01:06:18,360
have an agnostic point of view right then that I

864
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,840
don't know and I haven't. I haven't been I haven't

865
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,880
seen substantial enough evidence to make me, you know, just certain, right,

866
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,119
I would love to be certain. I think the other

867
01:06:29,199 --> 01:06:32,159
side is beautiful. I think that that. If that is true,

868
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,000
then it's great, But I'm just not convinced.

869
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,599
Speaker 1: Then you can't say you're agnostic if you would love

870
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:42,000
it to be the opposite. Agnostic. It's a Greek word,

871
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,480
and whenever you see a Greek word, just know when

872
01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:48,679
there's an A in front of a Greek word, that

873
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:54,639
a means against. So when you see atheist, a thought

874
01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:03,639
us against God. When you see agnostic, a gnosis against knowledge?

875
01:07:06,159 --> 01:07:07,840
D you see did you know that?

876
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:10,639
Speaker 5: Uh?

877
01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: Well, that may be how the word No, No, no, that's

878
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,519
not that's not what I asked you. I asked you,

879
01:07:15,599 --> 01:07:21,000
did you know that? No, then don't claim it. Do

880
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:21,519
you understand?

881
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,079
Speaker 5: Hold on? But no, I hear exactly what you're saying,

882
01:07:25,159 --> 01:07:28,400
But the definition doesn't say that you hear me.

883
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: I know, I'm just listen. I'm trying to give you

884
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:32,239
the game.

885
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,559
Speaker 5: Can break down hold on, hold on, You can break

886
01:07:35,599 --> 01:07:40,000
down a word at the etymologically speaking, when you did

887
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,880
this word means this, this word means that. But when

888
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,119
you put these words two words together, it's a. It's a.

889
01:07:46,199 --> 01:07:49,559
It's a definition for the new word, right, So you

890
01:07:49,719 --> 01:07:52,559
are correcting what those words mean. Separate When when you

891
01:07:52,599 --> 01:07:55,519
put those two words again, there's a concept behind it,

892
01:07:55,599 --> 01:07:59,719
and agnostic means that you know, you don't know if

893
01:07:59,719 --> 01:08:02,119
they're is a god or there isn't a god, but

894
01:08:02,159 --> 01:08:04,599
he hasn't made himself known. And you don't have no,

895
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:12,280
Uh you don't. You don't have enough evidence to substantiate. Now, look, let.

896
01:08:12,239 --> 01:08:16,079
Speaker 1: Me just ask, I mean, pull up, pull up the definition. No, No,

897
01:08:16,119 --> 01:08:18,399
I don't have to. I already know the definition. It's cool,

898
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,920
Uh that that that's not the point that I'm trying

899
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:25,880
to make. When people say there's no evidence of God,

900
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:34,960
I always take you're a proponent of science, aren't you. Uh, yes,

901
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:41,119
if you're an agnostic, come on, quantum mechanics.

902
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,159
Speaker 5: Against But I'm not. I'm not against the other side

903
01:08:44,159 --> 01:08:47,239
because I know, like when you say anti, right, that's

904
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:50,119
the literal. But I'm saying that I'm just not convinced.

905
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,119
Speaker 1: You know, I'm so you're open.

906
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:54,279
Speaker 5: It's not that I'm against exactly.

907
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:59,119
Speaker 1: I'm good. That's a good place to be. Being open

908
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:02,520
is the greatest place to be because that's where the

909
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:07,399
information comes in unfiltered. But open also means unconditioned, so

910
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:11,560
you can't come from the perspective of I'm agnostic, which

911
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,079
is your You said that, you said I'm more of

912
01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:19,439
an agnostic, so and I'm saying, don't claim that. Right.

913
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:23,039
If you're open, then you're in the gate. That's where

914
01:09:23,079 --> 01:09:27,600
all the probabilities are superposition. You should be there right.

915
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:34,119
Speaker 5: Yes, in a way, but in a way let me okay, yeah,

916
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:37,920
because so So this is why I say that agnostic

917
01:09:38,039 --> 01:09:41,760
is a person who believes that nothing is known or

918
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,319
can be known about the existence or nature of God.

919
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,159
So whenever you say that, I'm in that position because

920
01:09:50,199 --> 01:09:54,159
whenever I ask, though, I say, how do you know

921
01:09:54,399 --> 01:09:59,680
about God? You can only reference scriptures and the feeling

922
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,640
that you that you've had. But to me, it don't

923
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:03,239
mean shit.

924
01:10:04,079 --> 01:10:08,359
Speaker 1: There you go again. See gosh, we was having a

925
01:10:08,399 --> 01:10:17,800
great conversation and then you start cussing. Oh goodness, Andy,

926
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:21,760
you called it, didn't you? Andy said if he cursed

927
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:29,119
one more time, I'm gonna drop him in the name

928
01:10:29,159 --> 01:10:32,479
of sweet baby raised barbecue sauce. Well, listen, we got

929
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:37,600
Monday off to a bang. Guess what. I'm gonna be

930
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:41,720
back here tomorrow with another slapper. It's gonna be great.

931
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,720
I'm Zoe Williams, the Voice of Reason, I'll see y

932
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,199
all tomorrow with another Eater, Douce