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Every 29 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.439 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:49.760 Good Evening. Law enforcement professionals and criminologists long have been 33 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.079 challenged to arrive at a consensus over the most accurate 34 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:58.480 ways to classify serial killers. With predators as diverse as 35 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.640 the lesser known William Zamasi to slick con artists such 36 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:06.239 as Ted Bundy, one description certainly does not fit all 37 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.560 when it comes to grouping the depraved minds that comprise 38 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:16.039 America's most prolific murderers. Veteran criminal profiler Steve Daniels takes 39 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.520 a detailed look into the behavioral inticracies that separate contract 40 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:26.840 killers from sexual deviance, highly organized planners from low functioning opportunists. 41 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:32.159 Daniels advances the notion that current classification models falls short 42 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.479 of the reality faced by law enforcement and prosecutors offering 43 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:40.400 an additional profiling tool in the battle against violent crime. 44 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:44.360 The book that we're featuring this evening is Gazing into 45 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:50.080 the Abyss serial killer William Zamastil, the victims and other killers, 46 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.840 with my special guests, former parole agent, author and researcher 47 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.599 Steve Daniels. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 48 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:02.240 much for this interview. Steve, thanks for having me. Thanks 49 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:05.919 for having me very much. Thank you very much. Let's 50 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.479 start off first with your background in law enforcement. Could 51 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:12.319 you give that to us for share. 52 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:15.719 I spent twenty seven years with the Wisconsin Department of Corrections. 53 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.439 The last nine years were as a high risk parole agent, 54 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:23.599 which means the people on my caseload were considered assaulted 55 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:27.280 and dangerous, and virtually every one of them had at 56 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.800 least one murder on their record. So I got to 57 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.319 know murders very intimately. I was in their homes, at 58 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:39.280 their workplaces, met their girlfriends, etc. I am the chairman 59 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.240 of a cole case team for the Wisconsin Association of 60 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.479 Homicide Investigators, and we just recently completed our twenty third 61 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:48.199 successful case review. 62 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:55.680 Congratulations, thank you. Let's talk about William zama Still and 63 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.800 you take us, as you do in your book, to 64 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.919 August first, nineteen seventy eight, and you talk about a 65 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.599 young man. We don't know who that is so far, 66 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.520 but because a young man promised to take his girlfriend 67 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:14.639 and her kids shopping, So take us to August first, 68 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:19.240 nineteen seventy eight. What essentially happens that day in nineteen 69 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:23.399 seventy eight with this man and these children. Take us 70 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:24.199 from there, please? 71 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.439 Okay? Well, the unnamed man I will mention later on, 72 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:32.560 but his girlfriend needed to go shopping, and he promised 73 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:35.920 to take them to a local mall, but he spent 74 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.199 much of the day drinking with a heavy consumption of alcohol, 75 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.240 fell asleep on the couch. The young woman was getting 76 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:48.120 extremely frustrated, so she woke him up, obviously still intoxicated, 77 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.480 very ornery. The man had a history of being very 78 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:56.000 volatile when drinking. They went to the CoP's department store, 79 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.399 which is now closed. On the way, they were driving 80 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.839 some back rowe. He opened up a suitcase, pulled out 81 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:05.000 a thirty eight caliber and a forty five caliber, ordered 82 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.360 her to drive those back roads, and then proceeded to 83 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:11.720 fire the guns out the passenger side window. Shell casings 84 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.680 were flying all over the place. The woman hollered at him, 85 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.319 imploring him to stop. He would not cease firing. Finally, 86 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:21.800 he complied. Just that they arrived at the department store. 87 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:26.519 She went in. He said that he would come back 88 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:31.079 and get her. He failed to return, but a young 89 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:35.120 woman named Mary Johnson who worked in a mall. She 90 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.319 was extremely vivacious, wonderful young lady. In a matter of fact, 91 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.079 she was getting ready to be married. She was planning 92 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:45.879 her wedding, which is going to happen August fifth, in 93 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:51.240 a small town in Wisconsin. Anyway, Zama still was waiting 94 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.759 in a car and confronted Mary. She was a stranger 95 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:57.839 to him. He had never met her before, and he 96 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.680 forced her into a car around five point fifteen pm, 97 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.759 when she had finished her shift. He was approached. He 98 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:10.319 produced a handgun. He made Mary move to the passenger 99 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.639 seat of the automobile. She was obviously being abducted, and 100 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:19.199 I'm sure she realized that. Drove around for about forty 101 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.639 to forty five minutes, took her to this absolutely beautiful 102 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.600 park in the southern part of the state, August w 103 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:30.600 Durleth Park, beautiful pristine wooded area. He took Mary back 104 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.800 into the woods, had the forty five handgun from this 105 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.680 suitcase in the back seat of the car, forced Mary 106 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.120 to walk down a path with him, told her to 107 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.000 get undressed. Basically, obviously you can hear her pleading. I'm 108 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:48.160 sure she was that she didn't care what you do, 109 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:50.879 what he does to her, but she just wants to live. 110 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:56.079 She's getting married. Well, told her to lie down, she complied. 111 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.240 He unzipped his pants, forced sex, excuse me, forced sex 112 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.839 on Mary, and then I'm sure she said, if you 113 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.680 let me go, I won't tell anyone. No one knows 114 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:10.800 what Mary said, but anyway, the gun was in plain sight. 115 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:14.600 She was laying on her stomach. He straddled her, jacked 116 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:17.959 around into the gun, and hearing the sound, Mary turned 117 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:21.120 to look at him and then probably put her head 118 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:25.120 down in defeat, and he killed her and got dressed 119 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:29.439 and left. In the process. He left his wallet at 120 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:32.120 the scene, and he thought he might go back and 121 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:34.680 get it, but then thought, no, no, we cannot do this. 122 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.639 I can't do this. So he called a deputy he 123 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:39.920 had worked with in the past, said I think I 124 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.160 did something really wrong. Met the deputy at a store 125 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:49.240 and took him into custody. The guy's name was William 126 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:53.279 Zama Still that was his last homicide in nineteen seventy eight. 127 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:58.160 Had a very very short killing career. But anyway, Mary 128 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:02.160 Johnson was buried the day she was scheduled to be married, 129 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:04.839 which makes it even twice as sad. 130 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:10.399 Yeah, incredible. Now you write that there wasn't much to 131 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.959 investigate in terms of this murder since he had this confession, 132 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.800 and he went on to confess to this murder and 133 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.720 directed him to the park, So they had that much, 134 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:25.959 but just looking at them, and of course they would 135 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:29.079 look at somebody like this was capable of this, and 136 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:32.519 looking at him for other murders. So how does that work? 137 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:36.600 And who is the person that's investigating and looking into 138 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.159 the possibility of other murders? 139 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.399 All right, William obviously gets convicted of first degree murder. 140 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.159 He goes into the Wisconsin prison system, and so many 141 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.639 of these killers they absolutely love to talk. I mean, 142 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.360 it's just unimaginable why you would tell anybody what you did. 143 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.519 But anyway, he befriended another inmate who was in for 144 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:04.600 murder murdering the stepdaughter of a police chief, and he 145 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.480 became friends. Excuse me, they shared a sell and Zama 146 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.399 still basically told this guy, well, they're looking at me 147 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.200 for other murders. I killed a CoP's son out West. 148 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.360 I killed some people in California. Well, this guy was 149 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.399 getting out, so he had no qualms about contacting the police, 150 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.720 so he contacted the police. Rick Leewell was an investigator 151 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:31.159 for the Wisconsin State Department of Justice and he was 152 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.960 a fantastic investigator. He was Homicide Investigator of the Year twice. 153 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:40.679 He had some extremely famous cases, very famous in Wisconsin 154 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:46.679 and probably beyond. And he retired and the Department of 155 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.320 Justice got a grant to bring some people back to 156 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:55.000 review cold cases. So Rick Leeuell comes back from retirement. 157 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.879 This guy wants to talk to somebody. Rick Lewell goes 158 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:04.559 to prison to see the anonymous tipster and the guy says, well, yeah, 159 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.320 I mean, he's told me about all these murders, and 160 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.440 he even talked about Christine Rothschild. And we can talk 161 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.960 about Christine a little later. She was a co ed 162 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.519 that was murdered on the Madison campus in nineteen sixty eight. 163 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:22.240 But he even admitted to killing Christine Rothschild. So everybody's 164 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:27.000 antenna went up. That's still a cold case. Rick Leewell 165 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.399 meets with Zama still on a number of occasions. They 166 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.399 come to some plea agreements, and Zama still says, you know, 167 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.240 for some of the things that I want, I want 168 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.759 to do my time in Wisconsin, I don't want the 169 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:46.159 death penalty, et cetera. He admits to killing Lisa Joe Sheener, 170 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:48.840 who was the daughter of an FBI agent, not the 171 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.679 son of a cop, and two individuals who were hitch 172 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:57.279 hiking in California, and he admitted to killing Christine Rothschild. Well, 173 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:04.120 here we go. Well the grant runs out, he leaves. 174 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:08.399 Another individual who's still an investigator comes into the scene, 175 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.360 meets with Zama still and gets everything in writing except 176 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.399 Christine Rothschild. He said, no, I'm not doing that anymore. 177 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.759 I'm not going there. So Christine Rothschild is still a 178 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.879 cold case, and the other murders are accounted for, and 179 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:26.799 Zama still goes to trial, and he's doing life in 180 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.679 Wisconsin as a detainer for a life sentence in Arizona 181 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.480 in the federal prison system, and a detainer for two 182 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:34.639 murders in California. 183 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:41.559 There is let's talk about the murders again. To take 184 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.559 a look at his character and the moo and his 185 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:49.559 signature at these murders. Lisa Joe Shaner May twenty ninth, 186 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:52.840 nineteen seventy three, and we talk about her. She resided 187 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:54.559 in Tucson, Arizona. 188 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.799 Right, Lisa Joel was the daughter of an FBI agent, 189 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:02.279 And she was to an airport, excuse me to pick 190 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:04.679 up her husband who is coming home from leave in 191 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.200 the military. So she goes to the airport. Her dad 192 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.240 kind of says, well, maybe I should go and get him. No, no, 193 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:13.360 I'll go get him. I'll go get him. So she 194 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.200 goes to pick him up and parks on the parking 195 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.799 ramp and no one hears from Lisa. And her husband 196 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.440 comes home. He's got his duffel bag and he's ready 197 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.639 to vacation for a while. No Lisa calls the dad. 198 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.279 Dad says, well, I saw her leave. She left, you know, 199 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.799 two and a half hours ago. So he comes to 200 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.000 the airport to find his daughter and finds her abandoned 201 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:40.399 car on the parking ramp. Basically, all that comes to 202 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:44.480 this whole thing is he abducted this woman, took her 203 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:49.360 out into the desert, sexually assaulted her, killed her, gave 204 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:51.399 her a shallow bargil, which is just kind of a 205 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:55.000 surface burial, and her body or remains of her body, 206 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.480 were found by two guys looking for Indian head arrows 207 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.320 on the Army Reserve. So it's just another type of 208 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:10.240 victim for Zamba. Still, he picks these women that are 209 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.799 not high risk. They're not living higher risk lifestyles. You know, 210 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.679 Mary Johnson was leaving work and Lisa Joe Shaner was 211 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:19.720 waiting to pick up her husband. I mean, you would 212 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.639 think there was nothing that would put them in danger, 213 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.279 but that's one of his that's one of his mos. 214 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.240 He gets people that are not high risk, at least 215 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:29.799 the ones that he's been convicted for. 216 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:39.679 He also admitted to the siblings Jacqueline and her brother. Yeah, 217 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.000 can you tell us about those murders that he admitted to. 218 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.919 Jacqueline and her brother were well they were kind of 219 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.200 wild child's wild children, and they were going to hitchhike 220 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.120 to another part of California. Well, mom says, I really 221 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:00.080 wish you wouldn't do that, but okay, we're going to 222 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.840 do it. So they get a ride to a gas 223 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:07.679 station and she calls her mom and says, you know, 224 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.279 what this really nice guy is going to pick us 225 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.720 up and give us a ride the rest of the way. Well, 226 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:17.360 Malcolm was seventeen, Jacqueline was eighteen. They were coming from 227 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:21.960 Canoga Park, California, and they wanted to see Jacqueline's boyfriend, 228 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.200 so they were heading to Las Vegas. Well, the Bradshaw 229 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.360 siblings left Puchillo and were intent on hitchhiking back to 230 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.200 their home. They were seen at a gas station in Barstall, California, 231 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:36.519 and then she called in said a white male with 232 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:40.120 sandy colored hair driving a small pickup with suitcases in 233 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:43.200 the back picked them up to give them a ride. Well, 234 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:46.679 obviously they didn't make it. They were a little more 235 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.720 high risk to individuals hitchhiking. However, you would think with 236 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:55.960 two of them it'd be a little safer. But Zamazil 237 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:03.200 sexually assaulted both of them, left their bodies posed, if 238 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:08.240 you will, shot him both and then was arrested because 239 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.519 when the cool Case team came into came into business, 240 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.039 he admitted to killing those two individuals too. 241 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.559 You say that there was some evidence that they were 242 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:25.080 both sexually assaulted, which is very yes, interesting and rare. 243 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:31.759 I would say, well, Zamasil's sister said that he is 244 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:38.480 bisexual and that he would if he needed something like 245 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.960 a place to stay or you know, a job or 246 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.759 whatever it needed to be, he would he would have 247 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.279 sex with males, so that the raping of the young boy, 248 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:51.600 the Bradshaw boy, is not out of character for him 249 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:57.320 at all. He worked at a hotel in la and 250 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.960 he was probably living with a homosexual there because the 251 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.080 guy had a room in Zamasfield didn't have any money 252 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.639 to pay for a room. So yes, there's evidence that 253 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:07.559 he was bisexual. 254 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:12.679 You talk about too in one of the murderers or 255 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.320 more I think two, where he stole the victim's car. 256 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.399 So again, not a very bright thing to do, but 257 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.080 something he did do well, high risk as well. 258 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:30.360 Yes, and his early criminality, early on before the murders 259 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.360 came to be known, he was a car thief, so 260 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.840 stealing cars was part of his pattern. And he also 261 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.639 stole suitcases from the people that he killed and you know, 262 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.440 left him in the backseat of a car. And that 263 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.639 was you know, one of the trophies or the tokens 264 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.159 that linked him to the crimes. It was a suitcase 265 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.080 from the Bradshaw girl. 266 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:57.720 Yeah, yeah, it was also interesting too, that the that 267 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:04.119 they went and looked and searched and found other evidence 268 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:09.160 in the woods when they did look after this crime, didn't. 269 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:13.599 They look with the Bradshaws or with Lisa. 270 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:17.119 In one of the cases? 271 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.400 Well they yeah, they found they only found Lisa's remains, 272 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:28.799 but they found the bodies of the Bradshaws posed semi nude. 273 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.000 And then there was some basic evidence. There was some footprints. 274 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.759 Xama still was always known to work cowboy boots. There 275 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.400 were footprints in the sand in the area that matched 276 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.079 his when they did casting. So, you know, the guy 277 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.240 is a very disorganized killer. I mean, I'm sure your 278 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.359 listeners know what that term is all about. But he's 279 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:52.880 just very disorganized. He he leaves his waallet at one 280 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:58.000 murder scene. You know, he steals cars, he steals tokens 281 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.839 and suitcases, and leaves his prints in the sand. I mean, 282 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.480 the guy's not real sharp, he's not the brightest. So 283 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.640 but he had a very short killing career. I mean, 284 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.200 I think I mentioned that before, but if his first 285 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:16.680 murder was Christine Rothschild in nineteen sixty eight and the 286 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.000 one he was captured for was Mary Johnson in nineteen 287 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.240 seventy eight. That's only a ten year killing career. That's 288 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.480 pretty short. And basically, what if he did kill Christine, 289 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.440 and I believe he did. If he did kill Christine, 290 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:40.559 he was probably a teenager eighteen seventeen, and he was 291 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.000 a chronic guy that ran away from home constantly, and 292 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:47.240 he didn't do well in school. So across the street 293 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:53.799 from the hall, the college room College Hall where Christine 294 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:58.440 was found was the University Hospital, and it was believed 295 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.079 he spent some time at Universe the hospital before they 296 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:04.599 tore it down. And Christine would walk every day on 297 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.720 campus and she was absolutely beautiful girl. She was a model, 298 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:13.519 and she was gregarious. She had a lot of friends, 299 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.440 but she would walk every day early and then she 300 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:20.480 stop and have a cigarette. Well at the time she 301 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.680 stopped at the hall where they found her body, and 302 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.119 she was buried, I'm not buried. She was in the bushes, 303 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:36.920 well posed. And Zama still basically said that she was 304 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.240 his first kill. And usually when you say this is 305 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.240 my first kill, you intimate that there's going to be 306 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:45.119 a second, and a third and a fourth that there 307 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.599 already wasn't one. So that led people to think that 308 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:53.000 Zama still certainly did kill Christine and Rick Luell, who 309 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.400 again who we mentioned before, was part of that investigation, 310 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.079 and he basically said he thought it was just a 311 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.680 teenage inexperience with sex, kind of poking and prodding, and 312 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.799 her gloves were found shoved in her throat, probably so 313 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.079 she wouldn't scream, and then she was murdered and left 314 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:17.240 posed behind the bushes. But anyway, he admitted to it. 315 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.599 I mean, other people think there was another serial killer 316 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:23.079 involved who was a doctor, a medical doctor on campus 317 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.799 and who wore camouflage to work, and he was almost 318 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.160 like a specter. He would just appear when people were 319 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.720 talking and then he'd be gone. And Christine had said 320 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.960 she felt someone was looking in her dorm windows and 321 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:42.039 kind of stalking her. And by the way, that's one 322 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:44.160 thing to look for on college campus, is if you're 323 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.680 having some issues our dorm burglaries and dorm peeping toms 324 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.400 and that sort of thing. But Christine really felt she 325 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:57.839 was being watched and this guy was kind of trying 326 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:02.799 to ingratiate himself with her. She was really leery of him. 327 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.400 He may have seen her sitting outside smoking and he 328 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:11.160 knew some of her habits. He was just a really 329 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.599 creepy guy. He had photos when he was in Africa. 330 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.920 He had photos of a couple of massacred families, massacred 331 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.480 with machetes, and they believe that he may in fact 332 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:27.440 have been the person that massacred the families. But he 333 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:32.160 never admitted to killing Christine. But the investigation, you know, 334 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:36.519 obviously turned around because you know, Zama still said, well, 335 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.400 I killed Christine Rockchild. Basically you said I killed a 336 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:46.640 young woman named Chrissy on campus. Well that was her. 337 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.640 You talk about that, there was an extradition from California 338 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.240 or to California, pardon me, and there was a you 339 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:01.160 talk about the prosecution, the DA dropping them. Can you 340 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:04.000 explain in what way they dropped the ball in terms 341 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.519 of this plea agreement? 342 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.680 Well, dropping the ball. What I meant was the guy 343 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.319 that picked up or Rick Leewell left off, didn't get 344 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:18.359 to sign confession on Christine. So Zama still got basically 345 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.960 everything he wanted. He's doing his time in California. I mean, 346 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:23.559 I'm sorry. In Wisconsin, he's got a life sentence, so 347 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.039 he's not going to get out, he's not going to 348 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.400 get the death penalty. He's going to be in federal 349 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.640 prison in Arizona, and then there's a destainterer after that 350 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:33.920 for California. So the guy's never going to see the 351 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.799 light of day, but he's in Wisconsin. That's what he wanted. 352 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.680 And they never got assigned confession on Christine because the 353 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.759 guy didn't push sama Still on it. That's that's what 354 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:44.920 I meant by dropping the ball. 355 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:51.960 M right, there was still as a result of Still 356 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.599 of this confession that he made, the and the and 357 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.440 the details that he gave the police to corroborate that 358 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:06.720 those confessions, there was still other victims that were potentially 359 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.640 he was suspected of in that case, in that investigation 360 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.960 and that assumption what was done and what cases were 361 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.480 investigated specifically, Well, there was. 362 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.319 A reporter out there that in that area that wrote 363 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:28.279 that the desert is the number one burial ground in 364 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:34.440 the country for murdered victims. That it's better than some 365 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.839 cemetery because you're never going to find them and there's 366 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.440 no grave markings. But he believes that there were a 367 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:46.000 number of victims attributed to Sama Stield, some of them unnamed. 368 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:47.960 You know, he got a fight with a guy and 369 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:51.240 the guy never appeared again. Nobody knows what the guy's 370 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:57.240 name was. But the reporter thinks that there may be 371 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.400 up to twenty or thirty victims, and like I mentioned, 372 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.400 most of them unnamed. It's just he was so transient. 373 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.839 I mean, he was a vagabond and he was living 374 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.319 in the trashy hotels, get a job where he'd get 375 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.720 a job, spend a lot of time in bars CD bars. 376 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:19.160 So you get in a fight, you meet somebody out 377 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.279 in the street, you kill him, you dump him someplace 378 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.480 nobody even knows who. Nobody even knows who did it 379 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.279 or who the guy really is. So a lot of 380 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.599 the victims for Zama still go unnamed. Obviously, there's Mary, 381 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.119 and then Christine, we think, and then the other ones 382 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:35.920 that we mentioned are the ones that are named. And 383 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.720 you know, that makes him a serial killer. He really 384 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:46.519 is and was an enigma. I mean the guy was 385 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.319 six feet four, about two and ninety pounds, flew totally 386 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.559 under the radar, totally matter of fact. When I started 387 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:58.839 doing this this book, I contacted some of the chroniclers 388 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:02.039 of serial killers, the ones that keep databases and files 389 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.039 and that sort of thing. Many of them never heard 390 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.359 his Zama still until I mentioned his name. So I 391 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.880 missed that this guy really really flew low under the radar, 392 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.279 And if it wouldn't have been for Mary Johnson and 393 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:17.440 leaving his wallet there, he may still be out and 394 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:18.160 still be killing. 395 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:24.640 He talked to the informant, the cell mate, and he 396 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.559 said that there was mining shafts that he would put 397 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.359 bodies down. And you write that he was a tow 398 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.680 truck driver. He talked about the desert. He was a 399 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.440 tow truck driver in the Mahama Desert. So he had 400 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.720 a lot of potential, didn't he. 401 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.119