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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. Law enforcement professionals and criminologists long have been
Speaker 4: challenged to arrive at a consensus over the most accurate
Speaker 4: ways to classify serial killers. With predators as diverse as
Speaker 4: the lesser known William Zamasi to slick con artists such
Speaker 4: as Ted Bundy, one description certainly does not fit all
Speaker 4: when it comes to grouping the depraved minds that comprise
Speaker 4: America's most prolific murderers. Veteran criminal profiler Steve Daniels takes
Speaker 4: a detailed look into the behavioral inticracies that separate contract
Speaker 4: killers from sexual deviance, highly organized planners from low functioning opportunists.
Speaker 4: Daniels advances the notion that current classification models falls short
Speaker 4: of the reality faced by law enforcement and prosecutors offering
Speaker 4: an additional profiling tool in the battle against violent crime.
Speaker 4: The book that we're featuring this evening is Gazing into
Speaker 4: the Abyss serial killer William Zamastil, the victims and other killers,
Speaker 4: with my special guests, former parole agent, author and researcher
Speaker 4: Steve Daniels. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 4: much for this interview. Steve, thanks for having me. Thanks
Speaker 4: for having me very much. Thank you very much. Let's
Speaker 4: start off first with your background in law enforcement. Could
Speaker 4: you give that to us for share.
Speaker 3: I spent twenty seven years with the Wisconsin Department of Corrections.
Speaker 3: The last nine years were as a high risk parole agent,
Speaker 3: which means the people on my caseload were considered assaulted
Speaker 3: and dangerous, and virtually every one of them had at
Speaker 3: least one murder on their record. So I got to
Speaker 3: know murders very intimately. I was in their homes, at
Speaker 3: their workplaces, met their girlfriends, etc. I am the chairman
Speaker 3: of a cole case team for the Wisconsin Association of
Speaker 3: Homicide Investigators, and we just recently completed our twenty third
Speaker 3: successful case review.
Speaker 4: Congratulations, thank you. Let's talk about William zama Still and
Speaker 4: you take us, as you do in your book, to
Speaker 4: August first, nineteen seventy eight, and you talk about a
Speaker 4: young man. We don't know who that is so far,
Speaker 4: but because a young man promised to take his girlfriend
Speaker 4: and her kids shopping, So take us to August first,
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy eight. What essentially happens that day in nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy eight with this man and these children. Take us
Speaker 4: from there, please?
Speaker 3: Okay? Well, the unnamed man I will mention later on,
Speaker 3: but his girlfriend needed to go shopping, and he promised
Speaker 3: to take them to a local mall, but he spent
Speaker 3: much of the day drinking with a heavy consumption of alcohol,
Speaker 3: fell asleep on the couch. The young woman was getting
Speaker 3: extremely frustrated, so she woke him up, obviously still intoxicated,
Speaker 3: very ornery. The man had a history of being very
Speaker 3: volatile when drinking. They went to the CoP's department store,
Speaker 3: which is now closed. On the way, they were driving
Speaker 3: some back rowe. He opened up a suitcase, pulled out
Speaker 3: a thirty eight caliber and a forty five caliber, ordered
Speaker 3: her to drive those back roads, and then proceeded to
Speaker 3: fire the guns out the passenger side window. Shell casings
Speaker 3: were flying all over the place. The woman hollered at him,
Speaker 3: imploring him to stop. He would not cease firing. Finally,
Speaker 3: he complied. Just that they arrived at the department store.
Speaker 3: She went in. He said that he would come back
Speaker 3: and get her. He failed to return, but a young
Speaker 3: woman named Mary Johnson who worked in a mall. She
Speaker 3: was extremely vivacious, wonderful young lady. In a matter of fact,
Speaker 3: she was getting ready to be married. She was planning
Speaker 3: her wedding, which is going to happen August fifth, in
Speaker 3: a small town in Wisconsin. Anyway, Zama still was waiting
Speaker 3: in a car and confronted Mary. She was a stranger
Speaker 3: to him. He had never met her before, and he
Speaker 3: forced her into a car around five point fifteen pm,
Speaker 3: when she had finished her shift. He was approached. He
Speaker 3: produced a handgun. He made Mary move to the passenger
Speaker 3: seat of the automobile. She was obviously being abducted, and
Speaker 3: I'm sure she realized that. Drove around for about forty
Speaker 3: to forty five minutes, took her to this absolutely beautiful
Speaker 3: park in the southern part of the state, August w
Speaker 3: Durleth Park, beautiful pristine wooded area. He took Mary back
Speaker 3: into the woods, had the forty five handgun from this
Speaker 3: suitcase in the back seat of the car, forced Mary
Speaker 3: to walk down a path with him, told her to
Speaker 3: get undressed. Basically, obviously you can hear her pleading. I'm
Speaker 3: sure she was that she didn't care what you do,
Speaker 3: what he does to her, but she just wants to live.
Speaker 3: She's getting married. Well, told her to lie down, she complied.
Speaker 3: He unzipped his pants, forced sex, excuse me, forced sex
Speaker 3: on Mary, and then I'm sure she said, if you
Speaker 3: let me go, I won't tell anyone. No one knows
Speaker 3: what Mary said, but anyway, the gun was in plain sight.
Speaker 3: She was laying on her stomach. He straddled her, jacked
Speaker 3: around into the gun, and hearing the sound, Mary turned
Speaker 3: to look at him and then probably put her head
Speaker 3: down in defeat, and he killed her and got dressed
Speaker 3: and left. In the process. He left his wallet at
Speaker 3: the scene, and he thought he might go back and
Speaker 3: get it, but then thought, no, no, we cannot do this.
Speaker 3: I can't do this. So he called a deputy he
Speaker 3: had worked with in the past, said I think I
Speaker 3: did something really wrong. Met the deputy at a store
Speaker 3: and took him into custody. The guy's name was William
Speaker 3: Zama Still that was his last homicide in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3: Had a very very short killing career. But anyway, Mary
Speaker 3: Johnson was buried the day she was scheduled to be married,
Speaker 3: which makes it even twice as sad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, incredible. Now you write that there wasn't much to
Speaker 4: investigate in terms of this murder since he had this confession,
Speaker 4: and he went on to confess to this murder and
Speaker 4: directed him to the park, So they had that much,
Speaker 4: but just looking at them, and of course they would
Speaker 4: look at somebody like this was capable of this, and
Speaker 4: looking at him for other murders. So how does that work?
Speaker 4: And who is the person that's investigating and looking into
Speaker 4: the possibility of other murders?
Speaker 3: All right, William obviously gets convicted of first degree murder.
Speaker 3: He goes into the Wisconsin prison system, and so many
Speaker 3: of these killers they absolutely love to talk. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just unimaginable why you would tell anybody what you did.
Speaker 3: But anyway, he befriended another inmate who was in for
Speaker 3: murder murdering the stepdaughter of a police chief, and he
Speaker 3: became friends. Excuse me, they shared a sell and Zama
Speaker 3: still basically told this guy, well, they're looking at me
Speaker 3: for other murders. I killed a CoP's son out West.
Speaker 3: I killed some people in California. Well, this guy was
Speaker 3: getting out, so he had no qualms about contacting the police,
Speaker 3: so he contacted the police. Rick Leewell was an investigator
Speaker 3: for the Wisconsin State Department of Justice and he was
Speaker 3: a fantastic investigator. He was Homicide Investigator of the Year twice.
Speaker 3: He had some extremely famous cases, very famous in Wisconsin
Speaker 3: and probably beyond. And he retired and the Department of
Speaker 3: Justice got a grant to bring some people back to
Speaker 3: review cold cases. So Rick Leeuell comes back from retirement.
Speaker 3: This guy wants to talk to somebody. Rick Lewell goes
Speaker 3: to prison to see the anonymous tipster and the guy says, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, he's told me about all these murders, and
Speaker 3: he even talked about Christine Rothschild. And we can talk
Speaker 3: about Christine a little later. She was a co ed
Speaker 3: that was murdered on the Madison campus in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 3: But he even admitted to killing Christine Rothschild. So everybody's
Speaker 3: antenna went up. That's still a cold case. Rick Leewell
Speaker 3: meets with Zama still on a number of occasions. They
Speaker 3: come to some plea agreements, and Zama still says, you know,
Speaker 3: for some of the things that I want, I want
Speaker 3: to do my time in Wisconsin, I don't want the
Speaker 3: death penalty, et cetera. He admits to killing Lisa Joe Sheener,
Speaker 3: who was the daughter of an FBI agent, not the
Speaker 3: son of a cop, and two individuals who were hitch
Speaker 3: hiking in California, and he admitted to killing Christine Rothschild. Well,
Speaker 3: here we go. Well the grant runs out, he leaves.
Speaker 3: Another individual who's still an investigator comes into the scene,
Speaker 3: meets with Zama still and gets everything in writing except
Speaker 3: Christine Rothschild. He said, no, I'm not doing that anymore.
Speaker 3: I'm not going there. So Christine Rothschild is still a
Speaker 3: cold case, and the other murders are accounted for, and
Speaker 3: Zama still goes to trial, and he's doing life in
Speaker 3: Wisconsin as a detainer for a life sentence in Arizona
Speaker 3: in the federal prison system, and a detainer for two
Speaker 3: murders in California.
Speaker 4: There is let's talk about the murders again. To take
Speaker 4: a look at his character and the moo and his
Speaker 4: signature at these murders. Lisa Joe Shaner May twenty ninth,
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy three, and we talk about her. She resided
Speaker 4: in Tucson, Arizona.
Speaker 3: Right, Lisa Joel was the daughter of an FBI agent,
Speaker 3: And she was to an airport, excuse me to pick
Speaker 3: up her husband who is coming home from leave in
Speaker 3: the military. So she goes to the airport. Her dad
Speaker 3: kind of says, well, maybe I should go and get him. No, no,
Speaker 3: I'll go get him. I'll go get him. So she
Speaker 3: goes to pick him up and parks on the parking
Speaker 3: ramp and no one hears from Lisa. And her husband
Speaker 3: comes home. He's got his duffel bag and he's ready
Speaker 3: to vacation for a while. No Lisa calls the dad.
Speaker 3: Dad says, well, I saw her leave. She left, you know,
Speaker 3: two and a half hours ago. So he comes to
Speaker 3: the airport to find his daughter and finds her abandoned
Speaker 3: car on the parking ramp. Basically, all that comes to
Speaker 3: this whole thing is he abducted this woman, took her
Speaker 3: out into the desert, sexually assaulted her, killed her, gave
Speaker 3: her a shallow bargil, which is just kind of a
Speaker 3: surface burial, and her body or remains of her body,
Speaker 3: were found by two guys looking for Indian head arrows
Speaker 3: on the Army Reserve. So it's just another type of
Speaker 3: victim for Zamba. Still, he picks these women that are
Speaker 3: not high risk. They're not living higher risk lifestyles. You know,
Speaker 3: Mary Johnson was leaving work and Lisa Joe Shaner was
Speaker 3: waiting to pick up her husband. I mean, you would
Speaker 3: think there was nothing that would put them in danger,
Speaker 3: but that's one of his that's one of his mos.
Speaker 3: He gets people that are not high risk, at least
Speaker 3: the ones that he's been convicted for.
Speaker 4: He also admitted to the siblings Jacqueline and her brother. Yeah,
Speaker 4: can you tell us about those murders that he admitted to.
Speaker 3: Jacqueline and her brother were well they were kind of
Speaker 3: wild child's wild children, and they were going to hitchhike
Speaker 3: to another part of California. Well, mom says, I really
Speaker 3: wish you wouldn't do that, but okay, we're going to
Speaker 3: do it. So they get a ride to a gas
Speaker 3: station and she calls her mom and says, you know,
Speaker 3: what this really nice guy is going to pick us
Speaker 3: up and give us a ride the rest of the way. Well,
Speaker 3: Malcolm was seventeen, Jacqueline was eighteen. They were coming from
Speaker 3: Canoga Park, California, and they wanted to see Jacqueline's boyfriend,
Speaker 3: so they were heading to Las Vegas. Well, the Bradshaw
Speaker 3: siblings left Puchillo and were intent on hitchhiking back to
Speaker 3: their home. They were seen at a gas station in Barstall, California,
Speaker 3: and then she called in said a white male with
Speaker 3: sandy colored hair driving a small pickup with suitcases in
Speaker 3: the back picked them up to give them a ride. Well,
Speaker 3: obviously they didn't make it. They were a little more
Speaker 3: high risk to individuals hitchhiking. However, you would think with
Speaker 3: two of them it'd be a little safer. But Zamazil
Speaker 3: sexually assaulted both of them, left their bodies posed, if
Speaker 3: you will, shot him both and then was arrested because
Speaker 3: when the cool Case team came into came into business,
Speaker 3: he admitted to killing those two individuals too.
Speaker 4: You say that there was some evidence that they were
Speaker 4: both sexually assaulted, which is very yes, interesting and rare.
Speaker 3: I would say, well, Zamasil's sister said that he is
Speaker 3: bisexual and that he would if he needed something like
Speaker 3: a place to stay or you know, a job or
Speaker 3: whatever it needed to be, he would he would have
Speaker 3: sex with males, so that the raping of the young boy,
Speaker 3: the Bradshaw boy, is not out of character for him
Speaker 3: at all. He worked at a hotel in la and
Speaker 3: he was probably living with a homosexual there because the
Speaker 3: guy had a room in Zamasfield didn't have any money
Speaker 3: to pay for a room. So yes, there's evidence that
Speaker 3: he was bisexual.
Speaker 4: You talk about too in one of the murderers or
Speaker 4: more I think two, where he stole the victim's car.
Speaker 4: So again, not a very bright thing to do, but
Speaker 4: something he did do well, high risk as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, and his early criminality, early on before the murders
Speaker 3: came to be known, he was a car thief, so
Speaker 3: stealing cars was part of his pattern. And he also
Speaker 3: stole suitcases from the people that he killed and you know,
Speaker 3: left him in the backseat of a car. And that
Speaker 3: was you know, one of the trophies or the tokens
Speaker 3: that linked him to the crimes. It was a suitcase
Speaker 3: from the Bradshaw girl.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was also interesting too, that the that
Speaker 4: they went and looked and searched and found other evidence
Speaker 4: in the woods when they did look after this crime, didn't.
Speaker 3: They look with the Bradshaws or with Lisa.
Speaker 4: In one of the cases?
Speaker 3: Well they yeah, they found they only found Lisa's remains,
Speaker 3: but they found the bodies of the Bradshaws posed semi nude.
Speaker 3: And then there was some basic evidence. There was some footprints.
Speaker 3: Xama still was always known to work cowboy boots. There
Speaker 3: were footprints in the sand in the area that matched
Speaker 3: his when they did casting. So, you know, the guy
Speaker 3: is a very disorganized killer. I mean, I'm sure your
Speaker 3: listeners know what that term is all about. But he's
Speaker 3: just very disorganized. He he leaves his waallet at one
Speaker 3: murder scene. You know, he steals cars, he steals tokens
Speaker 3: and suitcases, and leaves his prints in the sand. I mean,
Speaker 3: the guy's not real sharp, he's not the brightest. So
Speaker 3: but he had a very short killing career. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think I mentioned that before, but if his first
Speaker 3: murder was Christine Rothschild in nineteen sixty eight and the
Speaker 3: one he was captured for was Mary Johnson in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy eight. That's only a ten year killing career. That's
Speaker 3: pretty short. And basically, what if he did kill Christine,
Speaker 3: and I believe he did. If he did kill Christine,
Speaker 3: he was probably a teenager eighteen seventeen, and he was
Speaker 3: a chronic guy that ran away from home constantly, and
Speaker 3: he didn't do well in school. So across the street
Speaker 3: from the hall, the college room College Hall where Christine
Speaker 3: was found was the University Hospital, and it was believed
Speaker 3: he spent some time at Universe the hospital before they
Speaker 3: tore it down. And Christine would walk every day on
Speaker 3: campus and she was absolutely beautiful girl. She was a model,
Speaker 3: and she was gregarious. She had a lot of friends,
Speaker 3: but she would walk every day early and then she
Speaker 3: stop and have a cigarette. Well at the time she
Speaker 3: stopped at the hall where they found her body, and
Speaker 3: she was buried, I'm not buried. She was in the bushes,
Speaker 3: well posed. And Zama still basically said that she was
Speaker 3: his first kill. And usually when you say this is
Speaker 3: my first kill, you intimate that there's going to be
Speaker 3: a second, and a third and a fourth that there
Speaker 3: already wasn't one. So that led people to think that
Speaker 3: Zama still certainly did kill Christine and Rick Luell, who
Speaker 3: again who we mentioned before, was part of that investigation,
Speaker 3: and he basically said he thought it was just a
Speaker 3: teenage inexperience with sex, kind of poking and prodding, and
Speaker 3: her gloves were found shoved in her throat, probably so
Speaker 3: she wouldn't scream, and then she was murdered and left
Speaker 3: posed behind the bushes. But anyway, he admitted to it.
Speaker 3: I mean, other people think there was another serial killer
Speaker 3: involved who was a doctor, a medical doctor on campus
Speaker 3: and who wore camouflage to work, and he was almost
Speaker 3: like a specter. He would just appear when people were
Speaker 3: talking and then he'd be gone. And Christine had said
Speaker 3: she felt someone was looking in her dorm windows and
Speaker 3: kind of stalking her. And by the way, that's one
Speaker 3: thing to look for on college campus, is if you're
Speaker 3: having some issues our dorm burglaries and dorm peeping toms
Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. But Christine really felt she
Speaker 3: was being watched and this guy was kind of trying
Speaker 3: to ingratiate himself with her. She was really leery of him.
Speaker 3: He may have seen her sitting outside smoking and he
Speaker 3: knew some of her habits. He was just a really
Speaker 3: creepy guy. He had photos when he was in Africa.
Speaker 3: He had photos of a couple of massacred families, massacred
Speaker 3: with machetes, and they believe that he may in fact
Speaker 3: have been the person that massacred the families. But he
Speaker 3: never admitted to killing Christine. But the investigation, you know,
Speaker 3: obviously turned around because you know, Zama still said, well,
Speaker 3: I killed Christine Rockchild. Basically you said I killed a
Speaker 3: young woman named Chrissy on campus. Well that was her.
Speaker 4: You talk about that, there was an extradition from California
Speaker 4: or to California, pardon me, and there was a you
Speaker 4: talk about the prosecution, the DA dropping them. Can you
Speaker 4: explain in what way they dropped the ball in terms
Speaker 4: of this plea agreement?
Speaker 3: Well, dropping the ball. What I meant was the guy
Speaker 3: that picked up or Rick Leewell left off, didn't get
Speaker 3: to sign confession on Christine. So Zama still got basically
Speaker 3: everything he wanted. He's doing his time in California. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. In Wisconsin, he's got a life sentence, so
Speaker 3: he's not going to get out, he's not going to
Speaker 3: get the death penalty. He's going to be in federal
Speaker 3: prison in Arizona, and then there's a destainterer after that
Speaker 3: for California. So the guy's never going to see the
Speaker 3: light of day, but he's in Wisconsin. That's what he wanted.
Speaker 3: And they never got assigned confession on Christine because the
Speaker 3: guy didn't push sama Still on it. That's that's what
Speaker 3: I meant by dropping the ball.
Speaker 4: M right, there was still as a result of Still
Speaker 4: of this confession that he made, the and the and
Speaker 4: the details that he gave the police to corroborate that
Speaker 4: those confessions, there was still other victims that were potentially
Speaker 4: he was suspected of in that case, in that investigation
Speaker 4: and that assumption what was done and what cases were
Speaker 4: investigated specifically, Well, there was.
Speaker 3: A reporter out there that in that area that wrote
Speaker 3: that the desert is the number one burial ground in
Speaker 3: the country for murdered victims. That it's better than some
Speaker 3: cemetery because you're never going to find them and there's
Speaker 3: no grave markings. But he believes that there were a
Speaker 3: number of victims attributed to Sama Stield, some of them unnamed.
Speaker 3: You know, he got a fight with a guy and
Speaker 3: the guy never appeared again. Nobody knows what the guy's
Speaker 3: name was. But the reporter thinks that there may be
Speaker 3: up to twenty or thirty victims, and like I mentioned,
Speaker 3: most of them unnamed. It's just he was so transient.
Speaker 3: I mean, he was a vagabond and he was living
Speaker 3: in the trashy hotels, get a job where he'd get
Speaker 3: a job, spend a lot of time in bars CD bars.
Speaker 3: So you get in a fight, you meet somebody out
Speaker 3: in the street, you kill him, you dump him someplace
Speaker 3: nobody even knows who. Nobody even knows who did it
Speaker 3: or who the guy really is. So a lot of
Speaker 3: the victims for Zama still go unnamed. Obviously, there's Mary,
Speaker 3: and then Christine, we think, and then the other ones
Speaker 3: that we mentioned are the ones that are named. And
Speaker 3: you know, that makes him a serial killer. He really
Speaker 3: is and was an enigma. I mean the guy was
Speaker 3: six feet four, about two and ninety pounds, flew totally
Speaker 3: under the radar, totally matter of fact. When I started
Speaker 3: doing this this book, I contacted some of the chroniclers
Speaker 3: of serial killers, the ones that keep databases and files
Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. Many of them never heard
Speaker 3: his Zama still until I mentioned his name. So I
Speaker 3: missed that this guy really really flew low under the radar,
Speaker 3: And if it wouldn't have been for Mary Johnson and
Speaker 3: leaving his wallet there, he may still be out and
Speaker 3: still be killing.
Speaker 4: He talked to the informant, the cell mate, and he
Speaker 4: said that there was mining shafts that he would put
Speaker 4: bodies down. And you write that he was a tow
Speaker 4: truck driver. He talked about the desert. He was a
Speaker 4: tow truck driver in the Mahama Desert. So he had
Speaker 4: a lot of potential, didn't he.
Speaker 3: He had a lot of potential. And I would even
Speaker 3: wager as being a tow truck driver, there might have
Speaker 3: been some civilians and people broken down on the side
Speaker 3: of the road that he may have killed them too,
Speaker 3: and dumped them down the tunnels the caves. I mean,
Speaker 3: there's no counting how many victims he truly has, except
Speaker 3: the ones that he was convicted for.
Speaker 4: You talk to the guy, sorry, go ahead, go ahead,
Speaker 4: go ahead, No, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I forgot what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4: You talk about a military man, given that that he
Speaker 4: would assault someone. You talk about a military man that
Speaker 4: was heading home and pulled over to the side of
Speaker 4: the road and was bashed in the head with a
Speaker 4: rock and his vehicles stolen, just as an example of
Speaker 4: a potential crime that Zamosto could have easily perpetrated.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, you're exactly right. Yep, you know the guy.
Speaker 3: He's a chameleon. Often presents himself as a nice guy.
Speaker 3: He claims he has a criminal record in many states,
Speaker 3: which is obviously true if he had murders in other states.
Speaker 3: He used different kind of weapons. Most of his victims
Speaker 3: that we can tell obviously convicted for were women, but
Speaker 3: there was a man in there, the Bradshaw Boy. There
Speaker 3: are some men attributed to him unnamed, so his victim
Speaker 3: pool is not very select. It's victims of convenience. And
Speaker 3: how much more convenient can it be if you're driving
Speaker 3: a tow truck on the highway in the desert and
Speaker 3: somebody's pulled over. So yeah, he's His prison record is
Speaker 3: pretty interesting too. He's he's a bully. Some people call him,
Speaker 3: say he's a snitch when it benefits him. He was
Speaker 3: a member of what was called the European Culture Club,
Speaker 3: which is euphemism for the prison motorcycle Brotherhood, which is
Speaker 3: a gang, and they had a banquet and the PMBs
Speaker 3: got in the middle of the room and did a
Speaker 3: chant and you know, in their hand signs, and there
Speaker 3: were civilians there, family members coming to have a banquet
Speaker 3: with the European Culture Club, and they they left. They
Speaker 3: were frightened. He was violent in prison. He told people,
Speaker 3: if you knew what I did, you'd run from me.
Speaker 3: He got in some fights. She banged the guy's head
Speaker 3: in the bar between the cell. So yeah, his prison
Speaker 3: record is not good. But he has a very volatile temper,
Speaker 3: obviously when he's drinking, but not when he's drinking too.
Speaker 3: He's told people that he enjoyed the killing. So he's
Speaker 3: a hedonistic killer. If you go to Ron Holmes's profiles,
Speaker 3: he's a hedonistic killer. He enjoys killing. That's what it's
Speaker 3: all about for him. He says, if you like to hunt,
Speaker 3: that's the thrill of the hunt. He abducted his victims
Speaker 3: and populated places, which made it risky for him. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the guy, actually, he just he loves to kill. That's
Speaker 3: as simple as it is. He doesn't even enjoy the
Speaker 3: hunt all that much, just enjoys the killing. Always carried
Speaker 3: a knife, so he used different methods of killing. So
Speaker 3: he's hard guy to peg. I mean no, very disorganized,
Speaker 3: very hedonistic and very very mobile, almost a nomad.
Speaker 4: Interesting. Let's use as an opportunity Steve to stop for
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Speaker 4: murder to start your ritual today. Now, Steve, we were
Speaker 4: talking about William Zamastil, his personal behavior, some of the
Speaker 4: incredible things that he said to the informant in prison,
Speaker 4: some of the fascinating details, unique mo and signature of
Speaker 4: this killer. But you talk about in this book as well,
Speaker 4: a need for a new category of multiple murder, a
Speaker 4: new classification. Maybe you can explain the need for this
Speaker 4: new classification in your mind, and as you do, we
Speaker 4: will talk about soon after a case study that sort
Speaker 4: of explains this necessity in detail.
Speaker 3: Well, I've belonged to a couple of serial murder websites
Speaker 3: on Facebook, and then there is a lot of debate
Speaker 3: about are higher killers serial killers? Are gang members serial killers?
Speaker 3: I don't believe they are. There's six types of homicide.
Speaker 3: There's the single, the double, which is two victims in
Speaker 3: one place, the triple, three victims in one place, the
Speaker 3: spree two more or more victims in separate locations, as
Speaker 3: a continuing act mass murder four more victims in the
Speaker 3: one location. A hit man can do any of those. Okay,
Speaker 3: he can kill four people in one location. He can
Speaker 3: kill two people in one location. A gang executioner can
Speaker 3: do that. But a serial killer, the individual that I believe,
Speaker 3: is very sexually driven, very sexually. The fantasies are so
Speaker 3: brazen and so bizarre and so hateful and means spirited
Speaker 3: that the act can never live up to the fantasy.
Speaker 3: That's why they keep killing to get that fantasy. Yep. Okay,
Speaker 3: So hit men and gang executioners, etc. Are not driven
Speaker 3: by fantasy, and they usually don't take trophies. It's a
Speaker 3: matter of convenience, it's a matter of economics. It's a
Speaker 3: matter of fulfilling the leaders wishes. We need a category
Speaker 3: for that. Now you'll notice in the paper that I wrote,
Speaker 3: I don't have a name for it. I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't have a name for it. Compulsive economic killer or
Speaker 3: you know, I hope somebody comes up with a good
Speaker 3: name for it. But generally speaking, these types of killers,
Speaker 3: they can be, you know, member of an African American
Speaker 3: street gang. They can be a member of a Caucasian
Speaker 3: motorcycle gang and Asian gang, Mexican cartel. You know, it
Speaker 3: doesn't know any boundaries as far as ethnicity is concerned.
Speaker 3: But almost every one of those types of killings is
Speaker 3: for some type of expediency within the organization. Okay, it
Speaker 3: killed unproductive members, uncooperative drug dealers, snitches, people that talked
Speaker 3: to the police, informants, personal killings. I don't like this
Speaker 3: guy in the gang, so get rid of him. Okay.
Speaker 3: To me, that's not a serial killer. That is someone
Speaker 3: killing simply for to fulfill the wishes of another individual.
Speaker 3: And there's no cooling and the only cooling off period
Speaker 3: for these guys, if you want to call it, that
Speaker 3: is in between kills before someone suggests or orders or
Speaker 3: tells them to kill again. So, like I said, a
Speaker 3: hitman or a gang executioner can be any one of
Speaker 3: the five killing five types of murder. I just don't
Speaker 3: think he can be a serial killer.
Speaker 4: You talk about also sort of the talk of people
Speaker 4: that have the potential I know that the FBI has
Speaker 4: changed their definition to instead of three murders and the
Speaker 4: cooling off period two. But there is taught even among
Speaker 4: them about the classification of people that certainly have demonstrated
Speaker 4: through their crimes, the potential to be a serial killer.
Speaker 4: And you talk about the cases of the interrupted serial killer.
Speaker 4: So can you talk about that sure.
Speaker 3: When, for example, there's an individual who kidnaps a woman,
Speaker 3: this is hypothetical, kidnaps a woman, keeps her tied up
Speaker 3: for three weeks, rapes her, kills her, and dumps her body,
Speaker 3: and then he's interrupted. The police investigate, they find him,
Speaker 3: he goes to prison, he goes to a mental health facility.
Speaker 3: His career as a serial killer is interrupted, but he
Speaker 3: still has all the earmarkings of a serial killer who
Speaker 3: would go on to do it again if he wasn't caught.
Speaker 3: And I believe that there are plenty of the individuals
Speaker 3: out there, quite a number of them from our state
Speaker 3: of Wisconsin. And Enzo Yatsek, who is the with the
Speaker 3: Atypical Homicide Research Group, he goes to forrest so far
Speaker 3: as to say an attempted murder or just some of
Speaker 3: the things that you do as an individual, the researching
Speaker 3: you do on the website, the people you followed. You know,
Speaker 3: you can have that serial killer mindset, you know, habitual offender,
Speaker 3: habitual killer mindset without killing anybody. And there's a big
Speaker 3: debate about that. You know, how wide are we going
Speaker 3: to make these margins? You know, if you start talking
Speaker 3: about one killer instead of two, you know, where are
Speaker 3: we taking this? But I'm a firm believer that the
Speaker 3: interrupted serial killer is he's out there, he's dangerous, and
Speaker 3: it's a good thing we got him off the streets
Speaker 3: because the individuals that I talked to, they said they
Speaker 3: would do it again.
Speaker 4: In a link, you cite Lawrence Singleton and you you
Speaker 4: call him the epitome of an interrupted serial killer do
Speaker 4: to the voraciousness of his sexual desires. Again, just what
Speaker 4: we were talking about. This is September twenty ninth, nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy eight. Tell us what he does with the hitchhiker
Speaker 4: Mary Vincent, who's fifteen years old.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's hit Shriking's like she said, she's fifteen years old.
Speaker 3: She's in California. She thinks she's getting a ride from
Speaker 3: this guy. That's a good samaritan. He's kind of older.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if that was Singleton's first attack, but
Speaker 3: he was pretty old then to just be starting. So
Speaker 3: he picked Mary up, takes her to a secluded spot,
Speaker 3: repeatedly raped her, and then to complete whatever his fantasy
Speaker 3: is telling him in his twisted brain, is that he
Speaker 3: needs to cut her hands off. Okay, and not only
Speaker 3: does he cut her hands off about up to the elbow,
Speaker 3: he pitches her over a cliff and she's naked and
Speaker 3: she hits the ground and she still survives. That's crowd
Speaker 3: amazing to me. Yeah, and she climbs up and flags
Speaker 3: down a car. This is a real good samarit. And
Speaker 3: here's this naked teenager, blood everywhere, no arms, no hands,
Speaker 3: and gives her a ride to the hospital. Mary gets hooks,
Speaker 3: you know, she gets.
Speaker 4: Prosthetics. We were talking about Mary Vincent, and she had
Speaker 4: prosthetic arms by the time that he was convicted or
Speaker 4: arrested for this crime.
Speaker 3: She got the prosthetic arms very shortly after he was arrested.
Speaker 3: I believe when he went to trial, she already had
Speaker 3: the prosthetic arms. But he got eight years and no
Speaker 3: one wanted him on parole, so he finished his sentence
Speaker 3: in kind of like a mobile home on the grounds
Speaker 3: of sam Quentin until he discharged from parole. And when
Speaker 3: you discharge from parole, it means you don't have an agent,
Speaker 3: you don't report to anybody. You've completed your entire sentence. Okay.
Speaker 3: So he moves to Florida and gets involved in some
Speaker 3: I don't know, low level theft and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: But one day a neighbor, here's a phone the police.
Speaker 3: She heard a scream nineteen ninety seven, but Singleton was
Speaker 3: assaulting a woman in his apartment. The police go to
Speaker 3: the door. Singleton is standing there with a knife in
Speaker 3: his hand, covered in blood, and on the floor was
Speaker 3: Roxane Hayes, who'd been stabbed in multiple times in a
Speaker 3: murderous frenzy. So his career was interrupted with Mary Vincent.
Speaker 3: No more serial murder for him until he gets out
Speaker 3: and he starts again. I mean that is the epitome
Speaker 3: of an interrupted serial killer.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely. You talk about next. A killer named John Weber,
Speaker 4: Missus Trott was in the spring of eighty nine. You
Speaker 4: say that he looked like a crazed werewolf and wore
Speaker 4: a firm mask. You talk about this case.
Speaker 3: I spent about twelve to sixteen hours interviewing John. He's
Speaker 3: a very interesting young man, not so young anymore, but
Speaker 3: he had he looked like a werewolf, and his defense
Speaker 3: attorney wanted him to look like that because they were
Speaker 3: pushing a not guilty by a reason of insanity defense,
Speaker 3: So he came to court looking like he was crazed. Anyway,
Speaker 3: he picked up his knee. I'm sorry. His sister in law, Carla,
Speaker 3: took her for a ride on November eleventh and nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty six, and she didn't tell anybody worse who she
Speaker 3: was going with, so she never returned home. He murdered her,
Speaker 3: left her, buried her partially on a vacant lot that
Speaker 3: was near the family's property. He made an audio tape
Speaker 3: of that of what he did to Mary. I'm sorry
Speaker 3: to Carla to it was absolutely vile, disgusting, filthy. No
Speaker 3: person in their mind should have to listen to that,
Speaker 3: and I think the jury did, and I'm sure they
Speaker 3: were just traumatized by what they heard. But he tortured
Speaker 3: her and did many things to her, cut off some
Speaker 3: portions of her body, cannibalized her, etc. Okay, he makes
Speaker 3: this tape to scare his wife because he's going to
Speaker 3: kill his wife. So he takes his wife out and
Speaker 3: sexually assaults her, plays the tape for and beats her
Speaker 3: with a shovel, brings her to the hospital and says
Speaker 3: some men abducted her while she was out in the woods.
Speaker 3: And stuck to that story for quite a while until
Speaker 3: till they figured it, Wait a minute, John, come on,
Speaker 3: why don't we sit down and talk about this. And
Speaker 3: finally he said, you're right, I did it. I tried
Speaker 3: to kill her. They tried to put him with some
Speaker 3: other crimes. There was somebody missing in a state fair
Speaker 3: in Milwaukee, and they thought they saw Weber around that
Speaker 3: area at the time. He was in the military, and
Speaker 3: they tried to see if there were some murders when
Speaker 3: he was in the military. I'm not sure what became
Speaker 3: of that investigation, but when I interviewed John, he would
Speaker 3: tell me that I would say John, if you ever
Speaker 3: get out on parole, what does your agent need to
Speaker 3: know about you? And he said, well, number one, do
Speaker 3: not ever ever let me near high school sporting events
Speaker 3: where they're cheerleaders. I can't be in that kind of
Speaker 3: company because somebody is going to get hurt. His fantasy
Speaker 3: life was so intense, so intense that he would have
Speaker 3: to leave his workstation multiple times a day to go
Speaker 3: to the men's room to masturbate. You know. Wesley Dodd,
Speaker 3: the child killer, said that he could think of nothing else.
Speaker 3: He said, it's amazing I could hold a job because
Speaker 3: all I thought about was killing kids. Well, that's how
Speaker 3: John Webber was. All he could think about was his fantasies,
Speaker 3: and he just they overtook him. And I believe he
Speaker 3: still has them. They may be less, but they're not
Speaker 3: certainly not gone. I think maybe medication helps. I don't know.
Speaker 3: But one day, when I was wrapping up the interview,
Speaker 3: he had to go to eat. He said, can I
Speaker 3: tell you something? Sure, of course you can't. He said,
Speaker 3: when I was twelve years old, I would dream about
Speaker 3: eating my neighbor. He said, that's not normal, is it?
Speaker 3: I said, well, John, no, it's actually not normal. So
Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, that guy is definitely an
Speaker 3: interrupted serial killer and would still be killing today if
Speaker 3: he wasn't incarcerated for the rest of his life. So
Speaker 3: it's this, it's this, oh man, this thought process. This
Speaker 3: it's cyclical. It never goes away. The cooling off period
Speaker 3: is different lengths of time for different individuals. But once
Speaker 3: that cooling off period is done, you got to kill again.
Speaker 3: So and John would have killed again. So it's kind
Speaker 3: of interesting. His social worker in the prison I thought
Speaker 3: was very inappropriate. He went to the town where John
Speaker 3: was from Phillips, Wisconsin, and purchased a Phillips, Wisconsin sweatshirt
Speaker 3: to wear and ate at the diners that John ate at.
Speaker 3: And I thought that was quite inappropriate. And I was
Speaker 3: interviewing John, and we were continuing interviewing, and the social
Speaker 3: work convinced John that I was writing a book about him. Well,
Speaker 3: at the time, I had no intentions of writing a
Speaker 3: book about him, but John sent me a letter saying,
Speaker 3: I don't want to talk to you anymore. We're done,
Speaker 3: our conversations are over. So you know, this just happened
Speaker 3: to enter into my book. When we're talking about interrupted
Speaker 3: serial killers. But John was evil. He was evil on
Speaker 3: the streets.
Speaker 4: So you talk about the well Laurence Singleton was sentenced
Speaker 4: to a relatively light sentence I guess given just due
Speaker 4: to the difficulties at trial to prosecute him and give
Speaker 4: him assign him a more serious sentence. But he was
Speaker 4: out in eight years. And you talk about being a
Speaker 4: high profile parole officer. Was there not any mandatory parole
Speaker 4: that he was due after his incarceration? And what do
Speaker 4: you have to say about somebody that obviously somebody could
Speaker 4: see the potential. And of course with this woman on
Speaker 4: the floor, Rocks and Hayes certainly proved what he was capable.
Speaker 4: Well again, well, as.
Speaker 3: I mentioned with Singleton, he could not leave the prison grounds.
Speaker 3: So he got fourteen years. I did eight. So he
Speaker 3: had probably I don't know, five more years, possibly on
Speaker 3: parole supervision, maybe four depending if he had any good
Speaker 3: time coming. So he had to stay on the grounds
Speaker 3: of San Quentin in a mobile home. If he went anywhere,
Speaker 3: a correctional officer would have to take him. So he
Speaker 3: stayed there until he did discharge. And as I mentioned,
Speaker 3: discharge means that you have completed your entire sentence. You
Speaker 3: don't report to anybody, you don't have an agent, you
Speaker 3: don't do any urine screens, drug tests, you do nothing.
Speaker 3: You're freeman. And that's what Singleton did. So he wandered
Speaker 3: around the country, god knows what he did and ended
Speaker 3: up doing some petty crimes in Florida and then ended
Speaker 3: up murdering rox and As. So obviously the fantasies and
Speaker 3: the thrill didn't go away with him either.
Speaker 4: You sit and other go ahead. Sorry, I was gonna say.
Speaker 3: John Will John has a life sentence, and there is
Speaker 3: no mandatory release with a life sentence. Okay, there's a
Speaker 3: time when you get to see the parole word after
Speaker 3: so many years, but there's no mandatory release, which means
Speaker 3: they have to let you out and then you finish
Speaker 3: your sentence on parole. So John is never going to
Speaker 3: get out. I mean he is. He's going to die
Speaker 3: in prison, as are many of these individuals, simply because
Speaker 3: a it was first to be intentional homicide. Plus they
Speaker 3: attacked on so many other things with him, you know,
Speaker 3: sexual assault, kidnapping, in that, I think he's got life
Speaker 3: plus nine hundred and eighty years, So I don't No
Speaker 3: one has to worry about John getting out and killing
Speaker 3: anybody anymore. And that's where people say, why don't they
Speaker 3: kill in prison? I mean, what's different. Well, I'll tell
Speaker 3: you what I believe is different. In prison, their victim
Speaker 3: pool isn't there. Okay, there's no children for Wesley Dodd
Speaker 3: to kill. There's no young women for John Webber to kill.
Speaker 3: There's no hitchhikers for Zama Still to kill. There's you know,
Speaker 3: their victim pool is gone, totally gone, which takes them
Speaker 3: a little bit out of the game. Plus it's probably
Speaker 3: the healthiest they've been in their adult life. When Richard
Speaker 3: Ramirez was killing in his final frenzy, he was living
Speaker 3: on Coca cola, twinkies and cigarettes and cocaine. Henry Lucas
Speaker 3: was living on cigarettes, marijuana, coffee, and sugar and junk food.
Speaker 3: So do I think that that influences health, influences some
Speaker 3: of the actions. Yes, and their health is good in prison.
Speaker 3: They get three squares. It's probably the best they've slept
Speaker 3: in years. Yes, there's drugs available, but everybody doesn't take them.
Speaker 3: So they don't kill in prison because their high profile. Also,
Speaker 3: and I think correctional officers treat them different. They have
Speaker 3: a little bit of fame, a little bit of celebrity
Speaker 3: status to them. So you see some sterial killers kill
Speaker 3: in prison, but not very many of them.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and it's it's also not the same circumstance
Speaker 4: that they were excited about in their murderous career as well,
Speaker 4: and very very difficult to get away with murder in prison,
Speaker 4: very much more difficult. So correct different dynamics and a
Speaker 4: completely different type of murder for these kind of killers.
Speaker 3: There was an really interesting guy, do we have time
Speaker 3: sure for one more? The name is Joe Clark. He's
Speaker 3: from Wisconsin. Joe just a strange individual. He abducted, by
Speaker 3: the way, Just as an aside, I think kidnapping and
Speaker 3: abduction are two different things. I think when you kidnap someone,
Speaker 3: there is talk of a ransom and then you'll get
Speaker 3: the person back. When you abduct someone, I think it's
Speaker 3: for very nefarious purposes murder, sexual assault, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So I try to use abduct whenever I can, but
Speaker 3: sometimes I slip. Anyway, Police found a screen that cut
Speaker 3: for Christopher Steiner's bedroom and muddy footprints. He was found
Speaker 3: about a week later, his body line over a fallen
Speaker 3: tree in a sandbar. No noted injuries that they could find,
Speaker 3: but they were certain it was murder. Okay, On July
Speaker 3: twenty ninth, I think it was. In nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 3: another youth went missing. He found himself being carried and
Speaker 3: dragged and hoisted in order to run through the backwoods.
Speaker 3: And you're still half asleep, so he really didn't even
Speaker 3: know what was going on. Joe Clark took his victim
Speaker 3: to it. Oh, just filthy, abandoned hobble. And he loved,
Speaker 3: he loved. One of his fantasies was to hear bones break.
Speaker 3: He loved to grab and twist and yank and manipulate
Speaker 3: until an ankle broke or and then he went for
Speaker 3: the leg, just a sexual fantasy for the perpetrator. And
Speaker 3: then he would then he would buy in the wounds,
Speaker 3: kind of makeshift with sock like casts. And that's the
Speaker 3: other part of his fantasy. He loved white athletic socks,
Speaker 3: and he loved the smell of them. He u They finally,
Speaker 3: finally the victim got away and called I won one,
Speaker 3: And they did a ought, exhumed the body and found
Speaker 3: out you know what, Wait a minute, wait a minute,
Speaker 3: here there's way too many similarities. So Clark got one
Speaker 3: hundred years in prison, right, So yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 3: just think a kid, a teenager who likes to hear
Speaker 3: the bones break and snap, and likes athletic socks and
Speaker 3: to smell them. Those are pretty bizarre fantasies.
Speaker 4: When you talk about the youth. And you said another
Speaker 4: couple dramatic cases where young serial killers started at a
Speaker 4: young age, and then we get back to Christine Rothschild.
Speaker 4: Rothschild and the idea that he could Zamostil could have
Speaker 4: done this at fifteen or fifteen years of age. What
Speaker 4: was about the crime itself that indicated, for lack of
Speaker 4: better term, a lack of sophistication as a killer.
Speaker 3: With Christine, well, she was dumped behind some bushes at
Speaker 3: Sterling Hall. And if I can just mention this, Sterling
Speaker 3: Hall came to fame at the University of Wisconsin in
Speaker 3: the early nineteen seventies, Ragtag bunch of domestic terrorists which
Speaker 3: we didn't call him back then, blew up Sterling Hall.
Speaker 3: It was a math research center for the army, so
Speaker 3: they blew it up. And there was an individual, a
Speaker 3: researcher in there, and he died as a result of
Speaker 3: that explosion. But that's the same hall that Christine's body
Speaker 3: was found behind the bushes and basically the gloves. It
Speaker 3: was very unsophisticated, really unsophisticated. Like there was a lot
Speaker 3: of grabbing and tearing of clothes, and like I said,
Speaker 3: the gloves were shoved down her mouth to probably keep
Speaker 3: her from screaming. There was no completed sexual assault that
Speaker 3: I remember from her, and her clothes were ripped in
Speaker 3: her her raincoat was inside out. I mean to me
Speaker 3: that screams of Xama still very unsophisticated, and that lack
Speaker 3: of sophistication followed him through his adult killing career. You know,
Speaker 3: it took a guy to come and he was unlocking
Speaker 3: the door at Stirling home. He looked in the bushes
Speaker 3: and he thought it was a mannequin and he looks
Speaker 3: and you know, there's Christine, dirty, muddy, wet. It was raining,
Speaker 3: and you know, like rick Lewell said, he just thought
Speaker 3: this was something that ripped really wrong and a lot
Speaker 3: of a lot of sexual innuendo, but nothing completed, and
Speaker 3: you know, nothing well, just unsophisticated.
Speaker 4: You use the term in this book. Maybe I'm mispronouncing
Speaker 4: that berfurcated or bifurcated, bifurcated. Can you explain that I will.
Speaker 3: Some people, some researchers and professionals, are trying to get
Speaker 3: rid of the word spree killing because they believe it
Speaker 3: really is so hard to define. I don't think it is.
Speaker 3: But okay, so some people call it serial serial murder
Speaker 3: at warp speed. Some people call it a mobile mass murder.
Speaker 3: So what the bifurcated means in a lot of spree
Speaker 3: killings is the killing starts maybe in a private place
Speaker 3: at home, you kill your mom and your dad, and
Speaker 3: then you take it to someplace else and you kill
Speaker 3: three other people. Well, that's a bifurcated mass murder. It
Speaker 3: happens in two places. And they're trying to get rid
Speaker 3: of the term spree killer. I quite frankly like the
Speaker 3: term spree killer. And I think it's I think it
Speaker 3: hits the nail on the head. But you know that's
Speaker 3: above my pay range. So but there's some good work
Speaker 3: being done out there, some really good work in the
Speaker 3: area of some new new information is going to be
Speaker 3: coming out the Laura Brand. Laura Brand is a young
Speaker 3: woman who has interviewed fifty serial killers, and she is
Speaker 3: coming out with a study on that she designed herself.
Speaker 3: Plus she's doing a documentary and a book on the
Speaker 3: Toolbox killers Bittiger and Norris.
Speaker 4: You're familiar with them, absolutely, okay.
Speaker 3: And Anzoyatsik is doing some great work with the Atypical
Speaker 3: Homicide Research Group, Tom Hargrove Murder Accountability Projects. So there's
Speaker 3: some new new ideas coming and I think people that
Speaker 3: are into true crime will really kind of get an
Speaker 3: idea that this is not a stagnant subject. We're finding
Speaker 3: new killers every day and we're finding new ideas about them,
Speaker 3: and I think they'll be fleased.
Speaker 4: Interesting. Yeah, So you talked about Enzo Yasis, the serial
Speaker 4: killer expert and founder of the Serial Homicide Expertise and
Speaker 4: Information Sharing Collaborative. Yes, and he talks about potential killers
Speaker 4: we had mentioned as fledging or budding killers and homicidal
Speaker 4: homicidal ideation, just the process of thinking about murder. And
Speaker 4: we talked about some of those people in the terms
Speaker 4: of serial killers and sort of interest in serial killers,
Speaker 4: I would say, or attention to where does William Zama
Speaker 4: still stand in terms of people looking at serial killers,
Speaker 4: how do they look at him. I know he's not
Speaker 4: as well known, and you cite up a bunch of
Speaker 4: other not so well known Wisconsin serial killers, but you
Speaker 4: have decided to feature William Zama Still. What do others
Speaker 4: as a result feel about William Zama Still and his
Speaker 4: status as a serial killer on a scale of.
Speaker 3: Zero to ten two, he is so unknown, refuses to talk,
Speaker 3: so everything is you know, research, and nobody gets to
Speaker 3: meet him face to face because I've sent him letters
Speaker 3: and he doesn't even respond to him. I sent his
Speaker 3: family letters, they don't respond, So he is so he's
Speaker 3: not as famous as other Wisconsin ones. I mean you
Speaker 3: mentioned that yourself. Jeffrey Dahmer and ed Geen and you know,
Speaker 3: Edward Edwards, all those individuals, they're much more famous than
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer and they probably will. And if people don't
Speaker 3: read my book, and that's up to them, they'll never
Speaker 3: know who williams. Zama Still is because he's not out
Speaker 3: in the moor front.
Speaker 4: Yes, he was absolutely a fascinating serial killer. And what's
Speaker 4: in interesting too is that you cite a bunch of
Speaker 4: other ones and provide the details of the serial killer
Speaker 4: in their cases, and quite shocking to realize in Wisconsin alone,
Speaker 4: this many infamous serial killers that we know of when
Speaker 4: you mentioned already, but all of these other ones that
Speaker 4: certainly warrant notice by the true crime audience and obviously
Speaker 4: by investigators, and that's why they were convicted of multiple
Speaker 4: murder in many cases in Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, there's some very famous ones, and you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not proud of that, but there are some very
Speaker 3: famous ones. And there's some famous interrupted serial killers too,
Speaker 3: you know that I mentioned in the book. So yeah,
Speaker 3: you said you've done five hundred interviews.
Speaker 4: That this is will be about five hundred and ninety
Speaker 4: interviews over eleven year span of time on murder.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most of its serial killers.
Speaker 4: I would say not, I wouldn't. I don't know about most,
Speaker 4: but I don't know about most because there's certainly it's
Speaker 4: the most shocking killer, So it's certainly anybody that and
Speaker 4: many of these killers are one off killers, maybe convicted
Speaker 4: of one or two. They certainly don't are aren't classified
Speaker 4: as serial killers, but in terms of shocking killers, they
Speaker 4: certainly make the grade. So yeah, so this will be
Speaker 4: about five hundred and ninety episodes talking about gazing into
Speaker 4: the ABYSS Steve for those people that might want to
Speaker 4: take a look at this work and other work. I
Speaker 4: know you have a couple other books as well, or
Speaker 4: One on the Way and another book, So tell us
Speaker 4: about where we might find Gazing into the Abyss and
Speaker 4: your other work.
Speaker 3: Well. Gazing into the Abyss is from Amazon or Barnes
Speaker 3: and Noble. The other book called Harry, A Study of
Speaker 3: Teenage mass Murderers. This is a case in nineteen sixty
Speaker 3: three where a teenager murdered his whole family, probably the
Speaker 3: first progeny mass murder in recorded history in Wisconsin. It
Speaker 3: happened in Green Bay on a little side street. My
Speaker 3: father was the lead investigator on the case. And Harry
Speaker 3: has never talked to anyone either, absolutely, and he's been
Speaker 3: institutionalized since the day after the killings. He was arrested,
Speaker 3: went to jail, couldn't defend himself in court or couldn't
Speaker 3: assist in his defense, went to the state mental health
Speaker 3: facility till he could aid in his defense, came back
Speaker 3: to the jail, was convicted, and went to prison, and
Speaker 3: he's been there ever since. So then there's nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 3: and I talk about a couple other things in the
Speaker 3: book school shooters and some other mass murders in Wisconsin
Speaker 3: that I call Harry's legacy came after him. The book
Speaker 3: I'm working on now is two parts. It's a spree
Speaker 3: killing in the city of Warsaw where a young detective
Speaker 3: was murdered along with five other people. And the second
Speaker 3: part of the book is a sniper in a little
Speaker 3: county in northern Wisconsin where he shot and killed three
Speaker 3: teenagers that were swimming in a river and it was
Speaker 3: kind of militaristic. So that's the next book. I don't
Speaker 3: even have a title for it yet.
Speaker 4: Incredible. Well, we'll look forward to talking to you about
Speaker 4: both of those books, hopefully in the very very near future.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you so much Steve Daniels for
Speaker 4: coming on and talking about gazing into the Abyss serial killer,
Speaker 4: William Zamastell, the victims and other killers. Thank you so
Speaker 4: much for this interview and you have a great evening.
Speaker 4: Thank you, and good night.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Thank you, good night.