WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:04.440 Oh hello, this is the start of Spooktober, and we're 2 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:07.599 kind of like rolling in with a sweet, sweet, cute 3 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.839 creature and a place you're probably afraid of. So here's Jill. 4 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:14.039 I've been actually in New York all week and I 5 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:17.399 was working with the Wildlife Justice Commission, and I was 6 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:20.280 also there for the wedding of your favorite diabetologist, doctor 7 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.480 Mike Natter and his new. 8 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:22.199 Bride, Alice. 9 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:24.879 And while I was there, I saw a few rats 10 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:27.399 and I thought about them fondly, and you will understand 11 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.440 why when you listen to this episode. 12 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:31.480 So I took the week off. 13 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:33.759 To enjoy New York and to go record some episodes 14 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.560 that you're going to hear very soon. So enjoy this 15 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:40.399 encore with honestly one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. 16 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:41.880 I think about this and I want to cry. You'll 17 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.960 find out why, Okay, Oh hey, it's that guy who's 18 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:47.920 asleep upright on the bus and doesn't know that you're 19 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:50.000 staring at him, waiting to see if he'll wake up. 20 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:53.679 Alli Ward back with an episode that's just like musical 21 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:56.960 to our years. If you are following the recent release 22 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:01.240 of the fan created TikTok redditituoy musical. But even if 23 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.879 literally none of those words in succession made any sense 24 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.000 to you, that's okay. This ology is one that is 25 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:13.560 of dark intrigue and cuddles and appalled curiosity. So better 26 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:16.719 to arm yourself with facts in trivia about the. 27 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:17.840 Critters that you curse. 28 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:22.200 Rats, but not just any rats, city rats, sewer rodents, 29 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.719 pizza rats, chappote like goblins, the outdoor pets that none 30 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:29.760 of us own. Let's learn to love them. Okay, but first, 31 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:32.439 some love for you. Thank you to the patrons, Thanks 32 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:34.680 to the folks who take a second to subscribe and 33 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.400 rate it really matters so much, And the ones who 34 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:40.079 take a minute or two to leave a review of 35 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:43.239 which I read all while I clutch my heart, and 36 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:45.680 then I read one aloud, such as this week from 37 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:47.799 Kristin G who says hooked. 38 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.239 Absolutely love this podcast. 39 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.640 It comes with a dad, and I feel like we 40 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.040 have a healthy and inquisitive relationship. 41 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:54.799 Join the fam. 42 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.159 You will be suckered into eating Tim TAM's, huffing trees 43 00:01:58.239 --> 00:01:59.159 and cutting banks. 44 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:00.719 Also, Aaron loves turtles. 45 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.920 You named a cat after me, and no it's not weird, 46 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.319 it's great. Okay, So Rodentology comes from the Latin word rondere, 47 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:11.280 meaning to gnaw at or eat away. 48 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:12.120 Which is very sexy. 49 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:16.159 And the word rodent covers thousands of species that we 50 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:20.240 could not possibly encapsulate in one interview. But for this episode, 51 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:24.080 we're talking rats because this urban rodentologist is. 52 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:26.000 The expert on sewer rats. 53 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:28.080 That's right, there's a guy for that, and he has 54 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:29.840 the Twitter handle rodentologist. 55 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:30.680 He's got it. 56 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.759 So he is cited in hundreds of articles about the 57 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.319 outside animals that maybe you are not looking for as 58 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.919 a roommate. Now, if there is an avocado being nibbled 59 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.000 on at midnight or a slice dragged down a stairwell, 60 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.840 his phone is a jingle for quotes and insight. And 61 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.960 so when he returned an email saying sound super about 62 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.240 doing this interview, I honestly think I gasped, And during 63 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:00.800 the interview itself, I enjoyed this chat so. 64 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.840 So so much. 65 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:03.479 I remember having a thought I had the best job 66 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:06.960 on earth. He's that sweet and honest and endearing and 67 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.759 curious and wonderfilled of a rodentologist. 68 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.360 You gonna love him. 69 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:12.560 I'm so excited for you. 70 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:16.599 Okay, So he got his PhD at Purdue University in rodentology, 71 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.879 studying rodent control technology for pig barns and chicken facilities, 72 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.000 and was a longtime research scientist for the New York 73 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:27.439 Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. And he's taught rat 74 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.919 Academy to city planners, and he's known all over the 75 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:34.319 world for his knowledge and compassion and detective work and 76 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.439 helping humans and rats coexist. So he owns RMC Pest 77 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.919 Management Consulting and is regularly called on by the press. 78 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:43.319 So we hopped on a call. 79 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:44.280 It was truly one of. 80 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.840 My greatest professional joys. And I think I love rats now. 81 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.599 So grab a snack from the garbage and learn all 82 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:57.080 about everything from their superpower teeth to their scaly naked tail, 83 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:02.479 their cute pink little hands, relationship, their preferred food dialects, 84 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.919 how they communicate, where they sleep, how big they really 85 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.680 get the best real estate for rats, how history books 86 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:13.759 gave them the shaft, how many rats one couple can have, 87 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.199 and of course, how to deal humanely if they ever 88 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.439 become an unwelcome HouseGuest with likely one of the world's 89 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:25.839 most beloved rodentologists, doctor Robert Corrigan. 90 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:48.800 Yes, my name is Robert Carrigan and you go by 91 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.040 Bobby too, correct, I go by Bobby or doctor Corgan. 92 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.759 I usually just go buy Bobby Carrigan. 93 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.879 And it's key or him too write. Yes, okay, great, 94 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:05.240 I'm so excited to talk to you. You have no idea. 95 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.920 I have been screencapping every article that you've been quoted 96 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:11.079 in for like the last year or two. 97 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.639 This is like holy Grail of rodentology. 98 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:15.879 Thank you, thank you. 99 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:17.800 Can you tell me a. 100 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:24.279 Little bit about what got you interested in rodents, particularly 101 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:26.759 urban rodents. Where about are you based and have you 102 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:28.399 always been based in an urban environment? 103 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.839 Well, I'm based just north of New York City, in 104 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:37.360 along the Hudson River, and I was born in Brooklyn, 105 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:41.519 raised on Long Island, and I took a two year 106 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.879 course at a state university on Long Island, State University 107 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:52.920 of Farmingdale, and I met an entomologist, urban entomologist who 108 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.079 was teaching a course and it was him, doctor Frishman, 109 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.120 that inspired me to study the animals that share our 110 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:07.439 urban environment. And from there I graduated, took a job 111 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.360 to save money for the rest of my college, and 112 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.319 I took a job as a pest control guy in 113 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:15.399 New York City, and from there I ended up in 114 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.519 the sewers. You know, new guy gets the crazy job. 115 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.560 So they put me into sewers to bait for rats, 116 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:28.519 and which sounds pretty gross, but I'm a nature nerd, 117 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.560 so I just thought this is so cool, even though 118 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:34.439 I had to crawl in and out of sewers for 119 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.480 several months before they promoted me and kind of allowed 120 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:41.079 me above ground. But that's where it all started. And 121 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:44.560 then when I went back to college at Purdue University 122 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:47.279 in graduate school, I went on and said I want 123 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:50.240 to study rodents, and they said, okay, so that was 124 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:50.720 the path. 125 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:53.199 When you say I want to study rodents, do you 126 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:57.160 get to select the type of rodents or do you 127 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.279 have to learn about every single rota under this sign 128 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.079 and then go take a job working with, say, urban rats. 129 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.519 Yeah, it's a great question, you know. At first, and 130 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:13.079 I was very lucky with the scientists that predue. They said, 131 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.360 as long as it's you know, going to take you 132 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.959 through this scientific process, and you know, it doesn't almost 133 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.040 doesn't matter what you want to study. In that program. 134 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:26.279 You could have studied earthworms, and which I thought were 135 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.639 pretty cool just that in itself. But I said, well, 136 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.279 you know, I remember my days in the sewers of 137 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.279 New York City, and I didn't know what I was 138 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.439 looking at, quite honestly, but I thought it was pretty cool. 139 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.800 It was pretty complex, and that's what I asked to do, 140 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:47.759 and they said, go for it. So I asked specifically 141 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:52.079 for just urban rodents, which is only three species. It's 142 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:56.560 the house mouse, it's noy rats, and it's the roof rat. 143 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.959 Just those three and that's enough for one hundred career 144 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.759 right there. Yeah, I am these days. 145 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:05.759 What were the sewers like? 146 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:08.120 What was your first day like in the sewers? 147 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:10.319 What kind of things do you see down there? 148 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:11.360 What does it smell like? 149 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:12.319 Is it scary? 150 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.120 Is it fun? Well? You know, I have to tell 151 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:18.160 you that when I first climbed down a ladder into 152 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.639 a sort of New York City, my heart was pounding 153 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.759 in my chest because, I mean, you don't know what 154 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.439 you're going into, right, even though someone had to show me, 155 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.560 you know, take me down and show me what to do, 156 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:33.799 what not to do, and these kinds of things. But 157 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:37.440 it's it's pretty intimidating, to be honest with you. It's 158 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.120 and it's not much to it, so it's not exciting. 159 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:43.639 It's just a tunnel, and right below your feet is 160 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.919 a low stream of you know, effluent that goes by. 161 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:53.600 And because it's enough air exchange alley, a lot of 162 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.600 people they go, I must smell horrible and stuff, but 163 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.159 it actually does not. And I mean you don't want to. 164 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:02.480 You don't really want to stand there and stare at 165 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.320 what goes by. To be honest with you, you can imagine so, 166 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.799 but at the same time, it's just a tunnel. The 167 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.840 tunnels I were in were the old tunnels. That's where 168 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.399 the rats like to go, and they're made out of brick. 169 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:19.799 And there's not hordes of rats either. Everyone thinks it's 170 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:25.000 these you know, monster populations of rats. It's like five 171 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.360 rats here and there, scurry about. Then you don't see 172 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.200 any for fifty sixty feet, then another three, then so 173 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.919 forth and so on. You know, mammal's a mammal, whether 174 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:35.879 it's a whale or a rat and a sewer or 175 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:38.720 the whale in the ocean. It's me being a nature nerd. 176 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.200 I just said, holy cow, there's these animals that live 177 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.960 in the pitch black down here completely, but yet they 178 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.960 know they're way around. They communicate. I see them muzzling 179 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.679 each other and so forth. So it was all to 180 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:53.720 me super cool. 181 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:57.159 It's it's so interesting to think, too, when you're bustling 182 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:02.159 around Manhattan that there's just an entire different world, an 183 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:04.320 ecosystem under your feet all the time. 184 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:09.519 Exactly. That's exactly it. So it couldn't set it any better. 185 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:16.960 And how did these these cosmopolitan New York rats? How 186 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.840 did they get down there from you know, Norway or 187 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.480 was it China? Did they come over on boats? How 188 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:25.519 did North America get this population? 189 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:31.080 Well, you know, the history seems to say that they 190 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.559 originated in Central Asia. You know, there's some debate there 191 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.879 exactly where, but for the most part, you know, it's 192 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:44.799 probably just slightly west of Turkmenistan, and over time, with 193 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.919 the trade routes, you know, grain spices, silk road, this 194 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.720 kind of thing, they made their way into Europe, and 195 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.440 once into Europe, of course, especially with early trade with 196 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:01.080 North America and explorers over they came with the ships. 197 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.279 Probably the first rats was the black rat, arrived in Jamestown, 198 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.320 Virginia's the best history we have on that, and the 199 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:15.200 rats from there, if not from ships directly in Philadelphia 200 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.480 and New York City, all the ports of the East Coast. 201 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:21.960 You know, there were thousands of ships. If you look 202 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.159 at some of the paintings of the late seventeen hundreds 203 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.919 and early eighteen hundreds, you know, the harbors were packed 204 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:32.200 like traffic jams with ships from all over the world 205 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.600 trying to you know, colonize and bring trade and so forth. 206 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.120 Okay, side note, what happened to all those ships? Well, 207 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:43.600 over time they crumble, they crash, they sink, But don't worry. 208 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:47.240 We have an episode about maritime archaeology. 209 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:46.919 I e. 210 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:47.759 Shipwrecks. 211 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.039 But for now, rats just packing their backs full of 212 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:53.200 cheese and boarding cruises. 213 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:59.279 Rats love ships there by the water. So we were 214 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:04.360 probably in pockets and rats every single day from different 215 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:08.759 parts of Europe and Asia. And from there they found, 216 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.600 especially in New York Alley they found you know, it's 217 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.559 an island. Manhattan's an island. There's streams everywhere, there's lots 218 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:21.840 of earth everywhere. People were populating and putting out their refuse, 219 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.559 and so the rats probably said, Wow, this North America 220 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:31.799 deal is fabulous New world from the New World. 221 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.200 And how do they do so well in the light? 222 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.879 Because I imagine too, if they're in the cargo hole 223 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.240 of an old creaky ship hundreds of years ago. It's 224 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.200 got to be low levels of light, not a lot 225 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.399 of vegetation too. 226 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.440 How do they do so well in that environment. 227 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.840 Well, you know that's a credit to these species. You know, 228 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:59.399 they're so innovative, they're so adaptable. They're very creative in 229 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.240 the way they can find food and what they will eat, 230 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.360 and if need be, they will eat the same thing 231 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.799 day after day after day. But in those creaky holes 232 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.639 of the ship, as you put it, you know, they 233 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.919 were a lot of times stealing, stealing the food of 234 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.759 people on board. They would all eat sailors, you know, 235 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.960 they would get up to get to their own food, 236 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.159 and they'd see that the rats and the mice had 237 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.879 gotten into it already. In fact, that's why, you know, 238 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:31.600 there's a word a scientist who rodentology used for these animals. 239 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:37.039 It's called the klepto parasites, meaning they parasitize us by 240 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.000 stealing from us more than anything. So that's how they 241 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:43.840 got over the ocean is by stealing from from these sailors. 242 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:49.519 And now they're stealing avocados, they're stealing slices of pizza. 243 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:51.720 They seem to have good taste. 244 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.600 They sure do. They have the same taste as we do. 245 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:57.759 They love pizza, as everyone knows. But it's got to 246 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:02.840 be New York pizza. It's something in the water, Yeah, exactly. 247 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.639 Pizza rat side note made its glorious debut in twenty 248 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:09.919 fifteen when a man named Matt Little bore witness to 249 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:14.399 one blessed rodent dragging a New York slice. Now eleven 250 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:18.639 point six million people have watched this fourteen second clip, 251 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:21.159 and also side note, nobody knows if it's really the 252 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.879 water that makes New York pizza so legendary. Some theorize 253 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.519 it's the decades old krusty ovens, or it's the rush 254 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.679 of churning out so many slices in a day that 255 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.679 leads to hastily made but better pies. Others say it's 256 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.360 just straight up scale. Either way, rats, No, it's good. 257 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.480 And now people have been asking you a lot. With 258 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:45.279 twenty twenty, with coronavirus and the pandemic, the streets look 259 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.519 a lot different than they did a year ago, And 260 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:55.320 so how are urban rodents adapting to our social structure 261 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:56.159 changing so much? 262 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:59.519 It's the biggest question on the docket right now as 263 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.960 to what's going on. And of course nobody was ready 264 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.799 for this, right, so nobody had an experiment set up 265 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:10.440 in design to start taking data. But all the road 266 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:13.960 intoligence around the country, we have been paying close attention 267 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:16.960 here in New York and it's similar to other cities. 268 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.440 They've been that opportunist. Every night the garbage gets put 269 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.480 out on the street for collection. And in New York 270 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.120 alone we have thousands, something like twenty two thousand restaurants, 271 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:31.960 so the rats have had it easy for decades. And 272 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.320 every night all they had to do is leave their 273 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:38.080 comfortable little nest and come out to the curb and 274 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:43.840 waste human waste, human foods, just in bags and cans. 275 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.600 And so all of a sudden, as you know, that 276 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:51.960 disappeared that overnight, that was gone when the city shut down, 277 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.559 where did everybody go? So what we saw initially, what 278 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.600 I saw initially is you know, they came out the 279 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.799 very first night, March eighteenth was when we shut down, 280 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.480 and there was no food on the curve. 281 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.399 Okay, if you're trying to envision this, just picture like 282 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.320 fifteen to twenty whiskery rodents darting up and down a 283 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.440 trash can or maybe coily peeking out from behind a 284 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.320 car tire. And size wise, they're around sixteen to twenty 285 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:22.960 inches long total. But imagine the rat's body from about 286 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.759 the tip of your middle finger to your wrist. The 287 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.720 tail is kind of like from your wrist almost to 288 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:32.720 your elbow or somebody else's elbow. Picture this is somebody 289 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.240 else's arm, or don't picture a person at all. I 290 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.399 should just erase this aside. 291 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.080 We study rats because they're like us. So picture yourself 292 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.320 if all of a sudden, no dinner, no breakfast, next day, 293 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:47.320 no dinner again, no breakfast for three days in a row. 294 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.399 You're going to be stressed. Obviously, you're a mammal. You 295 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:55.200 need food. And so these rats they're stressed. And when 296 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.000 they came out in March, the end of March, it 297 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:01.200 was for them very serious. There was night after night 298 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:05.519 there was no food. So two things happened ALLEI. One 299 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.519 is they started fighting among themselves, which is what we 300 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:15.200 would do. To start fighting bickering. The strongest rats started 301 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.200 killing the weaker rats to consume them. That's the way 302 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:24.359 nature works with almost all animals. And second to that 303 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.200 is some of the rats, especially the weaker ones, said well, 304 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.880 maybe there's food elsewhere further down the road. Maybe there's 305 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.039 food at a long distance. And you know, they're capable 306 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.200 mammals of traveling pretty good distances in a short period 307 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:45.519 of time. So those two things, they started fighting, killing, cannibalizing, 308 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:50.240 and then dispersing looking for well, where is the food. 309 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.960 And then they also started saying, well, maybe it's during 310 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.599 the day. So people started calling and saying, we're seeing 311 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.720 rats the middle of the day. They're very brazing. They 312 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.880 look you look brave, and like they're going to attack 313 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:08.559 my ankles or something. I tell everyone, look, these are disoriented, stressed, out, 314 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:14.039 hungry mammals. Whether it's cats or rats, or whales or humans, 315 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.640 we're all going to have this similar behavior when you 316 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.400 are threatened with death because of hunger. 317 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.160 And yes, there are plenty of documented cases of this 318 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:27.440 behavior in the human species, which is way more disgusting 319 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:32.039 than learning about cute, pink footed, smart, scrappy little rascals 320 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.079 whose evolutionary strategy is simply you're. 321 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.720 Going to eat that. Are you thinking. 322 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.480 That once the pandemic is over, knock on. 323 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.359 Wood, I'll just keep knocking. 324 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.440 That things will return to normal fairly quickly because they're 325 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.759 so adaptable, or do you think this has forever changed 326 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.720 the way that rats are living in urban environments. 327 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.640 I think they're going to return to normal fairly quickly. 328 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:01.240 And you know, part of the reason again so successful 329 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:06.920 and have colonized almost the entire planet Earth is you know, 330 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:12.200 they have an incredible ability to reproduce, as everyone knows. 331 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.480 And in fact, if you want to impact a rat 332 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:20.759 population alley, you have to remove about ninety six percent 333 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.079 of their older individuals. Ninety six percent. Oh my god, 334 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.000 that's exactly right. So if you have let's just say, 335 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:32.839 for the sake of argument, a thousand rats occupying you know, 336 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.359 some city street, Los Angeles or New York or wherever, 337 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:39.839 to get rid of ninety six percent of one thousand rats, 338 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.559 that takes a lot, that takes tramac. That's almost like 339 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.000 a complete disease wipeout or this kind of thing. So 340 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.799 there's going to be plenty of rats that survive this pandemic, 341 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:57.160 even though we don't have any measurements. Sixty seventy, we 342 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.640 don't know thirty eight. I don't know how many percent 343 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:03.880 are going to be eliminated, but it's not going to 344 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.799 be ninety six percent. If it's summertime, when you knock 345 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:12.519 them down to let's say ninety four percent, in six months, 346 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:18.119 they're back to the original population six months. Oh, I know, 347 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.400 it's an amazing, amazing mammal. 348 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.440 Yeah, they can make so many babies. And you mentioned 349 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.720 something about how they came out of their nests looking 350 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:31.599 for food, and I guess I had never thought about it. 351 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:36.319 But where are they kicking it when they're not guming 352 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.039 up on a slice on the sidewalk, Like. 353 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.400 Are they nocturnal? 354 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.680 Are they sleeping in comfy little cozy beds that they've 355 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.319 made out of leaves, or where are they hanging out? 356 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:48.039 Where do they sleep? 357 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:54.279 Well, they're very adaptable. So a city rat, if they 358 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.240 could talk to us, they'd say, look, we're from Mongolia area, 359 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:03.720 we're from Asia. We are burrowing mammals. We construct our 360 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:08.319 nest in the ground. Their brain is what's called the 361 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:13.359 geophilic orientation. That means they go into the earth. They're 362 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:18.599 attracted by going down into the earth geophilic And so 363 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.519 even in the city, their brain says, if I can 364 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.880 I like to dig into the earth of this city. 365 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:32.319 So the number one natural place to go is if 366 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.599 there's any kind of what we call available earth in 367 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.920 space in a city, like a tree pit or a 368 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:44.720 park or somebody's guarden that's undisturbed, they will construct a burrow. 369 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.440 They dig down about anywhere from twelve to eighteen inches 370 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:54.799 on a gradual slope, and about three feet into that tunnel, 371 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.079 they create a nest, a bedroom, and they line that 372 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.920 with eaves and straw. And in cities they love plastic. 373 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.039 I find plastic is their beds many times. And then 374 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.400 they construct a back door to that bedroom another three yeah, 375 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:16.400 another three feet out in two different directions. They have 376 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.200 back doors in case somebody comes in the front door 377 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.200 like a snake or rain, you know, flood, they have 378 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.920 a way out. And they disguise those two back doors. 379 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.960 By the way. So when now I'm forging about to 380 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.640 your question, they're they're down in those very well constructed 381 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:35.279 nests with escape holes built into them. 382 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:35.960 Ah. 383 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.839 And they don't even have to worry about rent control, 384 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.640 having to watch the obituary to see when something opens 385 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.440 up build. 386 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.680 Their own exactly. Gosh. 387 00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:51.680 Okay, so obviously rats are smart. They're smarter than we 388 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:52.440 give them credit for. 389 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.839 I imagine, right, Well, the research keeps coming in and 390 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.599 you know, we've learned just in the past three or 391 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.599 four years, if you follow the journal publications from good 392 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:08.759 referee journals, we are learning so much that these animals, 393 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:13.200 we've underestimated them forever in their intelligence. We always said 394 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:16.839 all rats are smart, but if you do a dive 395 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.039 on this, you'll find that now we know they can 396 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.359 use tools. We thought that was we thought that was 397 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:27.039 reserved for the higher quote mammals like genzes road and 398 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:27.839 choose tools. 399 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.400 What kind of tools like a spork or a gun 400 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:32.400 or what do they have? 401 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.200