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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom

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<v Speaker 1>in the past between primary secondary of worlds. I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Snyder, and I am always grateful for your company.

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<v Speaker 1>I had originally planned to host the interview tonight, but

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<v Speaker 1>we had to cancel last minute because his family's sake,

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<v Speaker 1>and honestly I get that. In fact, I previously had

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<v Speaker 1>to cancel with him for the same reason. The reality

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<v Speaker 1>is that this is a fairly regular occurrence when you

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<v Speaker 1>have young kids, and so instead, I want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>to you a bit about something that's been on my

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<v Speaker 1>mind lately, and then at the end I'll provide some recommendations.

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<v Speaker 1>You may have noticed that I recently dropped my ending

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<v Speaker 1>line that I used to close to the show for

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<v Speaker 1>most of us run up to this point. I used

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<v Speaker 1>to finish out by saying something like, may you have

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<v Speaker 1>many meaningful roads ahead. It sounded kind of good, but

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<v Speaker 1>I started to realize that it feels an awful lot

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<v Speaker 1>like empty postmodern drivel. I mean, it doesn't sound good, right.

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<v Speaker 1>We all want to walk on meaningful roads. We want

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<v Speaker 1>to engage in things that are meaningful. We want to

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<v Speaker 1>make meaningful choices, we want to have meaningful jobs. We

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<v Speaker 1>talk a lot these days about doing what is meaningful,

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<v Speaker 1>but even if we may have some ideas what we

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<v Speaker 1>mean by that, the language of meaning these days tends

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<v Speaker 1>to be terribly vague. I think that if we're honest

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<v Speaker 1>when we say that people should live meaningful lives, we

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<v Speaker 1>often mean that people should do the things that make

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<v Speaker 1>them feel satisfied. But that's a really dangerous path to walk.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we really just want lives that make us feel

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<v Speaker 1>satisfied or do we want to be satisfied because those

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<v Speaker 1>are not necessarily the same thing. Gerekr talks about this

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, that a number of people may feel really

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<v Speaker 1>happy in some kind of external, superficial sense, while there

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<v Speaker 1>is a deep despair abiding in the center of their

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<v Speaker 1>soul and that they're out of harmony with who it

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<v Speaker 1>is that they're meant to be and together. Maybe it

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<v Speaker 1>propped up by a time for circumstance, But circumstance is

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<v Speaker 1>going to do what it does, It's going to change,

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<v Speaker 1>and then where are you? And so don't just ask

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<v Speaker 1>the question am I happy right now? But if the

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<v Speaker 1>earthly thing that I value the most, career, family, whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>the things that are like near and dear to us

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we should cherish and that we should

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<v Speaker 1>celebrate and be grateful for while we have them. If

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<v Speaker 1>something went terribly wrong in the realm of circumstance, would

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<v Speaker 1>we still be happy. That's the kind of happiness that

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<v Speaker 1>the ancients were seeking. That's the you'nemonia of Aristotle. It's

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that we want to be so constituted within

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<v Speaker 1>our human nature that no matter what circumstance turns our way,

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<v Speaker 1>we are still free. We are still ourselves, we are

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<v Speaker 1>still human, we are stable even when the world around

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<v Speaker 1>us is given over to change. That's the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>happiness the ancient world sought. That's the kind of happiness

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<v Speaker 1>that we find in the likes of Boethius, who is

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<v Speaker 1>asking just that question, when fortune turns against me, who

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<v Speaker 1>am I? Where am I? Where do I anchor myself?

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<v Speaker 1>That's the kind of good that we need to be seeking,

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<v Speaker 1>not just what feels good, but what actually is good.

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<v Speaker 1>I think how Aristotle in book two of the Nikomaki

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<v Speaker 1>and Ethics, when he's dealing with virtue, he makes the

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<v Speaker 1>point that we don't want to do what some people

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<v Speaker 1>do and make our focus on study to the point

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<v Speaker 1>where we know virtue. We don't just want to know

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<v Speaker 1>what virtue is. We want to be good. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>Aristotle says, and so too. I think that that is

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<v Speaker 1>what we need to be pursuing, because like, I can

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<v Speaker 1>eat a fast food cheeseburger and feel satisfied. But am

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<v Speaker 1>I really satisfying what is good for me? Am I

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<v Speaker 1>engaging in real, genuine human flourishing? Am I being the

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<v Speaker 1>best andrew that I can be simply because I feel satisfied?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the reality is that a number of things

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<v Speaker 1>seem good to us. A number of things feel good

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<v Speaker 1>to us. They sound good to us. That we have

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<v Speaker 1>a number of things pulling on our hearts that feel

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<v Speaker 1>like home the way that we ought to go. But

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's helpful to consider the Greek idea of

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<v Speaker 1>muses and the sirens here, and that the muses are

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<v Speaker 1>that the daughters of zoos who inspire truth and beauty

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<v Speaker 1>in the poets and the craftsmen and the artisans. Right

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<v Speaker 1>these this is what it means to muse on something.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like you're being drawn up in its beauty, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's designed the way that things ought to be. And

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<v Speaker 1>so beauty is not something that exists in the eye

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<v Speaker 1>of the beholder for the ancient world for the most part.

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<v Speaker 1>But real beauty is like an objective force in the

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<v Speaker 1>world that pulls on you, that summons you up toward

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<v Speaker 1>what is true, what is good, what is beautiful, and

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<v Speaker 1>what is life giving. Well, we can contrast that with

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<v Speaker 1>the apparent beauty of the sirens, the sirens who cast

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<v Speaker 1>out their apparently beautiful song across the waters to unsuspecting

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<v Speaker 1>sailors who then hear these songs and it fills them

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<v Speaker 1>with euphoria and visions of delight to the point where

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<v Speaker 1>they are drawn in because the music sounds, it feels satisfying,

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<v Speaker 1>it sounds apparently beautiful, and so then the sailors are

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<v Speaker 1>drawn into its source, and they don't find what is true,

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<v Speaker 1>what is good, what is life giving, but they find

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<v Speaker 1>what is seductive. They find what is life consuming. And

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<v Speaker 1>so we get this contrast between beauty and seduction, both

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<v Speaker 1>of which seem very good at the moment, but have

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<v Speaker 1>very different results. And so what you need to learn

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<v Speaker 1>is discernment. You need to learn where beauty is anchored,

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<v Speaker 1>so that we are able to recognize the domain of

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<v Speaker 1>beauty when you encounter it, and so too with seduction.

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<v Speaker 1>Find very similar theme in the proverbs with the contrast

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<v Speaker 1>between Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly, same basic idea that

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<v Speaker 1>they both call out with very similar kinds of calls,

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<v Speaker 1>but with very different results. So we don't need to

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<v Speaker 1>just ask what feels meaningful, what feels satisfying, We need

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<v Speaker 1>to ask what actually is rooted in genuine meaning, what

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<v Speaker 1>actually satisfies my deepest longings, in harmony with my design

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<v Speaker 1>and what it is that I am for. I C. S.

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis said, I didn't go to religion to make me happy.

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<v Speaker 1>I always knew that a bottle of port would do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Or It's like an interaction that I had with a

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<v Speaker 1>student last semester. I would not one of my students,

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<v Speaker 1>but I was on campus between classes and a psych

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<v Speaker 1>student was doing a survey for a class project, and

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<v Speaker 1>it came up to me, surely not recognizing that I

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<v Speaker 1>was a philosophy professor. He asked me to rate my

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<v Speaker 1>happiness on a scale from one to ten. He obviously

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<v Speaker 1>wanted me to just give him a numbers that way

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<v Speaker 1>he could jot it down and go about his survey.

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<v Speaker 1>But I wasn't going to have that he wasn't going

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<v Speaker 1>to get away that easily, and so naturally I asked

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<v Speaker 1>him what he meant by happiness? What is it that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm quantifying here? And he fumbled around and then said, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean like how positive you feel. And this then

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<v Speaker 1>leads to the question of what do you mean by positive?

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<v Speaker 1>And of course this is why they killed Socrates for

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<v Speaker 1>asking these kinds of questions. But this is a major

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<v Speaker 1>problem with pseudo psychology in general, that there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of talk about meaning, There's a lot of talk about happiness,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of talk about mental health, but no

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<v Speaker 1>one is asking the question of what it even means

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<v Speaker 1>to be human? What is our standard for what health

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<v Speaker 1>looks like in being human? When we're at the same

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<v Speaker 1>time we're denying that there is any kind of real

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<v Speaker 1>essence too humanity, I mean psychology suit que lagos literally

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<v Speaker 1>means or etymologically, it means something like the articulated reason

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<v Speaker 1>of the soul? What does it mean to be human?

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<v Speaker 1>How can we possibly address something like psychological well being

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<v Speaker 1>if we cannot answer this fundamental question of what we

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<v Speaker 1>even are Until we have an answer to this question,

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<v Speaker 1>the question of human essence or te loss or goal,

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<v Speaker 1>or what it is that we are meant for, all

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<v Speaker 1>questions regarding a life of meaning become hyper subjectivized nonsense.

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<v Speaker 1>We're speaking too a void, and mental health inevitably becomes

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<v Speaker 1>relegated to a vague sense of feeling good, some arbitrary,

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<v Speaker 1>meaningless sense of happiness. And we can see the disastrous

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<v Speaker 1>consequences of this irrationalism in our obvious mental health crisis

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<v Speaker 1>that is especially rampant amongst the youth. The thing is

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<v Speaker 1>that without reckon that there is such a thing as

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<v Speaker 1>human nature, that that comes along with a way that

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<v Speaker 1>we ought to be oriented in the world, a way

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<v Speaker 1>we ought to be put together, that we have a

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<v Speaker 1>design to fulfill. Well, without that, all we have is

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<v Speaker 1>empty opinion. All we have is superficial feelings and senses

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<v Speaker 1>of satisfaction, senses of meaning, senses happiness. When someone tells

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<v Speaker 1>us then that we ought to live a meaningful life,

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<v Speaker 1>but at the same time that meaning can mean something

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<v Speaker 1>different to everybody, and that all different ideas of meaning

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<v Speaker 1>are totally subjective and all come down to opinion. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that point, the words themselves lose their meaning because we

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<v Speaker 1>don't have any common ground in which to base our vocabulary.

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<v Speaker 1>Our words themselves lose the value of communication, but they

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<v Speaker 1>sound good because we do genuinely yearn for real meaning.

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<v Speaker 1>We are part of a real world that is anchored

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<v Speaker 1>in real meaning that finds its way up to the top.

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<v Speaker 1>But we've denied ourselves of any means of actually achieving

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of meaning, of recognizing this kind of meaning,

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<v Speaker 1>And so in our pursuit of meaning in a meaningless world,

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<v Speaker 1>we just look for that superficial kind of happiness that

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<v Speaker 1>was being asked of me to quantify. And if we

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<v Speaker 1>think that we find meaning while we are at the

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<v Speaker 1>same time denying anything like human essence, and we're denying

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<v Speaker 1>that there is a broader reality in which we are nested.

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<v Speaker 1>Well at that point that in our very pursuit of meaning,

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<v Speaker 1>our pursuit of our vision of paradise, we end up

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<v Speaker 1>in the kind of hell that C. S. Lewis gives us,

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<v Speaker 1>in the Great Divorce, in which everyone is increasingly isolated

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<v Speaker 1>from each other, and the very houses in which people

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<v Speaker 1>live are nothing more than projections of their own delusions. Hey, everyone,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, I have a passion for pursuing wisdom

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<v Speaker 1>through literature and enjoining as many others as I can

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<v Speaker 1>in that venture, and so with that in mind, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to make sure that you know about some of

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<v Speaker 1>my studies that are currently available for enrollment. First, there

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<v Speaker 1>is the Fiction and Philosophy of C. S. Lewis, which

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<v Speaker 1>is a twelve week study of most of Lewis's works

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<v Speaker 1>of fiction, including the Ransom series, So Out of the

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<v Speaker 1>Silent Planet, Perilandra, and That Hideous Strength, as well as

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<v Speaker 1>the Screwtape Letters Till We Have Faces, the Great Divorce,

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<v Speaker 1>all of the Chronicles of Narnia, and a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>on the Dark Tower, which was his first attempt at

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<v Speaker 1>a sequel to Out of the Silent Planet. Each of

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<v Speaker 1>these weekly modules include suggested secondary reading, often with PDFs

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<v Speaker 1>attached when I was able to do that, a shorter

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<v Speaker 1>video that introduces the text or discusses a related essay

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<v Speaker 1>or nonfiction text, a longer video that covers the main

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<v Speaker 1>story we're working with, and a recording of our zoom

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<v Speaker 1>calls from the live run. There's a lot that's crammed

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<v Speaker 1>into this course over these twelve weeks, but the good

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<v Speaker 1>news is that it's no longer live, and so you

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<v Speaker 1>can work for the material at your own pace. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>We've just recently finished an eight week study on life, death,

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<v Speaker 1>and Meaning with Beowulf and Boethius, which follows the same

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<v Speaker 1>format of the Lewis course, with recommended reading, main videos

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<v Speaker 1>on the main text, and shorter videos that cover related

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<v Speaker 1>myths or philosophy or scholarship. Bawel from Boethius both provide

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<v Speaker 1>incredible texts that help us to gain stability and courage

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<v Speaker 1>in a world that is constantly changing. Lastly, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>really excited about this, I have a course coming up

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<v Speaker 1>in early twenty twenty five called The Wisdom of Middle

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<v Speaker 1>Earth The Lord of the Rings. I intend for this

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<v Speaker 1>to be the first of a series on talking stories.

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<v Speaker 1>As we read The Lord of the Rings together, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's your first time or your eleveny first time, as

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<v Speaker 1>we dig into the wisdom embedded in this incredible story.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you enroll in multiple courses, there is a

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<v Speaker 1>bundled discount to go with that. The prices for all

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<v Speaker 1>of these courses are currently lower than they have ever

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<v Speaker 1>been before this point, so sign up now, as they

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<v Speaker 1>may not always stay exactly where they are at this moment.

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<v Speaker 1>You can find all these courses at Andrew Snyder dot

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<v Speaker 1>Potty dot com or click the link in the show

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<v Speaker 1>notes and now back to the show. And while that

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<v Speaker 1>book does have some bearing on eschatology or final things

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<v Speaker 1>the afterlife, it needs to be principally understood not as

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<v Speaker 1>a book about what happens when people die, but as

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<v Speaker 1>first and foremost it is a commentary on the way

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<v Speaker 1>people are living right now in the modern era, and

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis explicitly says as much within the book. His version

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<v Speaker 1>of Hell is simply the demonstration of the modern era

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<v Speaker 1>of radical isolation that results from severing ourselves from the

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<v Speaker 1>reality of the shared reality in which we find ourselves now.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a subjective element to our pursuit of the

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<v Speaker 1>real meaning that is implicit in a created existence? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, of course there is, and that we each

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<v Speaker 1>have a responsibility to pay particular attention to the ray

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<v Speaker 1>of light, the color that shines down upon us, recognizing

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<v Speaker 1>that there's an entire spectrum of light that finds its

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<v Speaker 1>unity in the white light on the other side of

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<v Speaker 1>the prism. And so we may naturally be drawn to

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<v Speaker 1>different goods, but we should all be moving toward the good,

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<v Speaker 1>toward God. Even the pagans of the ancient era of

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<v Speaker 1>philosophy recognize us. For example, in Plato's dialogue the Euthiphro,

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<v Speaker 1>Socrates is going to the court when he encounters his

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<v Speaker 1>buddy Uthaphro. He asks what Euthyphro is doing there, and

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<v Speaker 1>Socrates finds out that he's prosecuting his own father for murder,

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<v Speaker 1>for killing one of their servants. Well, it's a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>big deal. So Socrates says that Euthyphro is clearly an

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<v Speaker 1>expert on piety if he has the authority to charge

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<v Speaker 1>his own father with murder. And of course, whenever Socrates

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<v Speaker 1>compliment someone like that, it's obviously a setup. Well, Socrates

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<v Speaker 1>ask Euthiphro to educate him on the nature of piety,

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<v Speaker 1>and Euthyphro says that piety is what he's currently doing

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<v Speaker 1>and prosecuting his father for murder. Well, Socrates says that

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<v Speaker 1>surely there are other pious actions as well, and together

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<v Speaker 1>they list off some other good things to do. But

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<v Speaker 1>it still doesn't really answer the question what Socrates wants

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<v Speaker 1>to know, and early what Plato wants to know is

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<v Speaker 1>what makes good things good? We all know, regardless of

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<v Speaker 1>the skeptical or radically subjective philosophy. We may espouse. We

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<v Speaker 1>all know that some manners of life are better than others,

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<v Speaker 1>that it's better to engage in charity than mass murder.

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<v Speaker 1>I engage in exercises like this with my college students

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<v Speaker 1>all the time, most of whom will say that there

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<v Speaker 1>is no such thing as real truth or real goodness.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you give them a stark moral scenario, then

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly they acquire a taste for justice. Or I'll ask them,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, how many of them intend to vote in

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<v Speaker 1>the upcoming election, and most of them raise their hand,

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<v Speaker 1>and I ask them why they intend to vote, and

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<v Speaker 1>then they'll tell me something about why one candidate offers

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<v Speaker 1>a better vision than the other, despite the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>they just told me that all opinions about everything are

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<v Speaker 1>equally made up. If you're at all in tune with

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<v Speaker 1>your basic human experience, then you know that some things

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<v Speaker 1>are better than other things. Well, this brings us back

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<v Speaker 1>to the question of what makes good things good. If

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<v Speaker 1>we refuse to deal with this, then we become lost

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<v Speaker 1>to delusion, We lose ourselves to postmodern despair. Well, this

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<v Speaker 1>is not, by any means the last thing that I

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<v Speaker 1>had to say on this, And at some point I

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<v Speaker 1>want to do some more carecguard here and to get

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<v Speaker 1>back to where I started with this podcast. But for now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to conclude with the final words of

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<v Speaker 1>Boethius in the Constellation of Philosophy, which very much echoes

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<v Speaker 1>from what we get in Ecclesiastes. He says, avoid vice, therefore,

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<v Speaker 1>and cultivate virtue. Lift up your mind to the right

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<v Speaker 1>kind of hope, and put forth humble prayers on high.

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<v Speaker 1>A great necessity is laid upon you if you'll be

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<v Speaker 1>honest with yourself, A great necessity to be good, since

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<v Speaker 1>you live in the site of a judge who sees

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<v Speaker 1>all things. I want to take a moment to thank

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<v Speaker 1>all my patrons, because I really couldn't keep this up

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<v Speaker 1>without you. I have a lot of exciting things in

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<v Speaker 1>my plate, including a book that I've started drafting, some

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<v Speaker 1>more public facing courses that I'm starting to put together,

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<v Speaker 1>and some other currently secret projects. If you'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>help me to keep going with all of these things,

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<v Speaker 1>then I would greatly appreciate your assistance through Patreon, and

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<v Speaker 1>many thanks to all of my current patrons, and by name,

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<v Speaker 1>all of my Tier two patrons and higher. That's smart

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<v Speaker 1>Cliff Aaron Paul William, Aaron Andrew Brandon, Christopher E. And Emmy, Jeremiah, Joscelyn,

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<v Speaker 1>Joshua Landon, Matthew and Steele, and of course thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>all of my Tier one patrons as well. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>interested in joining the Mythic Mind Fellowship, then you should

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<v Speaker 1>know that there's never been so much content, especially at

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<v Speaker 1>the higher levels, than there is right now. Starting at

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<v Speaker 1>tier three, I've been releasing content from my courses, and

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<v Speaker 1>I've almost finished uploading everything from the Fiction and Philosophy

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<v Speaker 1>of CS Lewis course, which covers nearly all of his

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<v Speaker 1>major works of fiction and beyond. This level of patronage

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<v Speaker 1>gives you access to the videos as well as the

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<v Speaker 1>audio delivered through the patron podcast feed, and of course

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<v Speaker 1>you'll also get all of the other Mythic Mind content

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<v Speaker 1>as well at that tier. And so head over to

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<v Speaker 1>patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind to join the fellowship. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so now a recommendation. With the Advent season coming up

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<v Speaker 1>in the not two discent future, is time for my

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<v Speaker 1>annual reading of Saint Athanasius's classic on the Incarnation. If

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<v Speaker 1>you aren't familiar with Athenasius, he was active following the

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<v Speaker 1>Council of Nicea in three twenty five, which provided agreement

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<v Speaker 1>regarding the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity as Father, Son,

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<v Speaker 1>and Holy Spirit three persons in one God, and that

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<v Speaker 1>creed would get expanded a bit more with the Council

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<v Speaker 1>of Constantinople in three eighty one. Well following the Council

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<v Speaker 1>of Nicea, things were hardly settled on a political level.

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<v Speaker 1>Nicia declared that the Son is of the same substance

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<v Speaker 1>as the Father, the Greek word there being homousius. The

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<v Speaker 1>heretic Areas, however, said that the Son is of similar

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<v Speaker 1>substance to the Father, that is homoi ussius, and so

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<v Speaker 1>i literally may in iota of difference. As Arias believe

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<v Speaker 1>that the Sun is the highest creation of the Father.

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<v Speaker 1>He is as like the Father as a created being

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<v Speaker 1>can be, but that he is indeed a created being. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>following Nicia, the Roman Empire went back and forth on

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<v Speaker 1>this issue between Arianism and Nicene Orthodoxy, which really just

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<v Speaker 1>became a mess. That's faithful defenders of Orthodoxy such as

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<v Speaker 1>Athanacious kept getting banished when politics swung toward the Arians,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they could come back, and then they could

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<v Speaker 1>banish again and not just a mess. And the temporarily

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<v Speaker 1>Aryan Roman Empire set missionaries amongst the barbarians, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>these arian barbarians that would later occupy nice Rome, and

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<v Speaker 1>so it's really just kind of a mess. Well, in

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<v Speaker 1>any case, Athanasius was an ardent defender of orthodox Trinitarian theology,

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<v Speaker 1>and one of his iconic texts is on the Incarnation,

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<v Speaker 1>which makes for a great read as we approach the

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<v Speaker 1>Advent and Christmas season. And so I recommend that they

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<v Speaker 1>pick it up and joined me this year. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think this is fairly commonplace now with the addition that

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<v Speaker 1>you'll find by just typing in on Amazon. But make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that you do pick up an addition that has

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<v Speaker 1>the introduction by C. S. Lewis. This is a great

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<v Speaker 1>essay that makes the purchase worthwhile all by itself. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's it for now. Depending on how the schedule shakes out,

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<v Speaker 1>I should have one or another conversation for the next episode,

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<v Speaker 1>and also make sure that you check out the Mythic

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<v Speaker 1>Mind Fellowship podcast as well. The Mythic Mind patrons and

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<v Speaker 1>I have been reading through the Poetic Eda. We started

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<v Speaker 1>publishing some of our conversations over there, so make sure

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<v Speaker 1>you go and subscribe to the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>or you can always become a patron yourself and hop

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<v Speaker 1>into those conversations. But that's it for now and until

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<v Speaker 1>next time, god speed, a good