WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.799 A Boundless Authenticity podcast. 2 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:09.400 Thanks for tuning in to the Boundless Authenticity Podcast Today, 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.519 I'm joined by David J. Roberts, who became a parent 4 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.199 who experienced the death of a child when his daughter 5 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.280 Janine died of cancer on March first, two thousand and three, 6 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:24.280 at the age of eighteen. He is a retired addiction 7 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.480 professional and an adjunct professor in the Psychology Child Life 8 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:29.760 Department at. 9 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.039 Utica University in Utica, New York. 10 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.399 Dave also teaches psychology classes at Pratt Munson's School of 11 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.320 Art and Design. He is the host of the Teaching 12 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:43.439 Journey's podcast, which can be found on most podcast platforms. 13 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:48.039 Dave has presented workshops at national conferences of the Compassionate 14 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:51.439 Friends as well as for the Bereaved Parents of the USA. 15 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.799 He was also a keynote speaker at the twenty eleven 16 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.920 and twenty fifteen national gatherings of the Bereaved Parents of 17 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:03.679 the USA. Dave also co presented a workshop titled Helping 18 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.200 Faculty after Traumatic Loss for the Parkland, Florida community in 19 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:10.879 May of twenty eighteen, in the aftermath of the mass 20 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:12.599 shootings at Stoneman. 21 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:13.439 Douglas High School. 22 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:16.680 Dave has been a past huff Post contributor and has 23 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:21.480 contributed articles to medium, Open to Hope Foundation, Mindfulness and Grief, 24 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:24.760 Thrive Global, and the Recovering the Self Journal. He has 25 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.480 also appeared on numerous podcasts as well as Open to 26 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:31.719 Hope Television. He co authored a book with Reverend Patti 27 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:36.680 Farino titled When the Psychology Professor Met the Minister, which 28 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.760 was published on March first, twenty twenty one. So I'm 29 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:41.760 going to start today's podcast with a quote that I 30 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.159 found on Dave's website and it goes like this sorrow 31 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.879 makes us all children again, destroys all differences of intellect. 32 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:55.439 The wisest know nothing. Ralph Waldo Emerson, Dave, how's it going. 33 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:58.760 Johannah's going very well. That's a pleasure to be on 34 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.000 your podcast. Have a look forward to to our conversation 35 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:03.319 for some time now. 36 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.599 Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. 37 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.560 This would be the third time that we're talking, and 38 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.000 I have to say I've really taken a liking to you, Dave. 39 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:15.639 So you might be a permanent fixture here on the podcast. 40 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.199 That's not a bad thing, particularly as I get older. 41 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.360 The more permanent fixtures I can be anywhere the better 42 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.919 off I am. So I'm grateful for any type of 43 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.919 permitive fixture offering. I can beat anybody at this point. 44 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:30.919 So great. 45 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.919 So, Dave, if you could just expand on some of 46 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.000 the things that we read about you in your biography, 47 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:39.120 that would be good. 48 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:42.479 Well, there's a couple of couple of things that I 49 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.400 can I can expand on. First of all, the life 50 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:48.840 that I am leading now. The path that I am 51 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.240 walking now now is never a path I ever thought 52 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:55.960 i'd be walking. No parent, I think, ever comes on 53 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:58.400 earth and anticipating that they're going to bury one of 54 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:02.520 their children. We all always believe that our children are 55 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.599 going to carry our legacy, as opposed us carrying our 56 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:11.319 children's legacy. But my life started out very literally, very predictably. 57 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.919 I graduated from Mutich University in nineteen seventy seven, had 58 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:20.800 a couple of different jobs, and then found my calling 59 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:26.280 in the addictions field. In nineteen eighty six, I was 60 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.240 hired at the McPike Addiction Treatment Center, a state run 61 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:33.919 facility in Utica, New York. I was there for twenty 62 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:41.120 seven years, and I retired in twenty twelve, about sixteen, 63 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.759 about seventeen years into my career as an addictions professional. 64 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.080 I was hired as an adjunct at the time at 65 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.520 adjunct lucture of Yutika University, and I'm now an adjunct 66 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.159 professor and I've been there for twenty one years. But 67 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:01.879 in between all of that came. So I'm very, you know, 68 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:04.400 very dark times in my life. And I want to 69 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:09.159 give Johan you and your listeners three specific dates that 70 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.240 are sort of the center centerpiece of my story and 71 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.879 how I've embraced the path that I'm on, and also 72 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.560 to to show you how life can kind of just 73 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:24.279 turn out a dime. May second, my daughter, Janine's first 74 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:27.959 and only daughter, Brianna, was born May second, two thousand 75 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.800 and two. Brian is now twenty two years old and 76 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:32.720 she has two children of her own, so I am 77 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:37.279 now a great grandfather. On May nineteenth, a twenty five 78 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.199 year journey to obtain my master's and social work degree 79 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:47.480 ended when I officially got conferred my degree on May nineteenth, 80 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.600 two thousand and two, from the State University of York 81 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:54.560 in Abany. And on May twenty sixth my daughter was 82 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:00.879 diagnosed with a malignant tumor. Malignant tumor and foot cancer's 83 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:05.720 tumor in her foot. That diagnosis was confirmed June second 84 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:11.839 by the Data Farber Research Hospital, Research Center and Hospital 85 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.759 in Boston, where I was told that she had a 86 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:19.240 rare form of cancer called a velia rabdomiosarcoma, which was 87 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:23.360 a connective muscle tissue cancer, that the primary site was 88 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:25.759 her right foot that she had injured in a freak 89 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:34.160 action during pregnancy. Traditional interventions to deal with the swollen 90 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:38.720 foot did not work. Every one of us and our 91 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.240 family thought that it was her swalt foot was simply 92 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.720 some complications from pregnancy, but it turned out that that 93 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.879 injury activated some dormant cancer cells and pregnancy massed to 94 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:55.519 diagnosis and she was diagnosed with a stage four tumor. 95 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.879 We were told in Boston that with bone marrow, lipno involvement, 96 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:04.240 and we were told that her cancer was incurable. That 97 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:06.879 the only cure we were going to have, or chances 98 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:08.920 we're going to have for a cure, is if her 99 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.759 cancer is put into remission until a cure could be found. 100 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.240 So what my herd and my daughter heard, and I 101 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.519 think in her significant other and my wife, Sherry heard 102 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.839 was that unless there's a miracle, your daughter's going to die. 103 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.920 So I went from the exhilaration of being your grandfather, 104 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:32.279 to the contentment of attaining an educational goal twenty five 105 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:37.120 years in the making, to now being an unwitting participant 106 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.399 and a caregiver to a daughter who was now terminally 107 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:43.680 ill and an all likelihood was going to die. And 108 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:47.800 ten months after she was diagnosed, even after six rounds 109 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:51.560 of chemotherapy, which did not put her cancer in total remission, 110 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.839 she died, or as I now call it, transition from 111 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.000 the physical world to the spiritual world. And that sent 112 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.439 me off on a path that at all that, all 113 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.120 the training in the world, all the therapy that I did 114 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.399 with clients who had their own trauma is due to 115 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:12.560 addiction and not due to addiction, none of that began 116 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.519 to even prepare me for the path that I was 117 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.319 about to walk. I was a forty seven year old 118 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.199 man who is now living in a world that was 119 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:25.160 totally alien and very terrifying, you know, trying to think 120 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.560 moving forward, how am I going to live in a 121 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.360 world where my only daughter is now at present? And 122 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:37.000 I do have two other other sons, one older than 123 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:40.800 my daughter, Jeanine, and one younger, and I'm both very 124 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.879 very proud of them. They're great kids, they're great young men. 125 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.439 They've got their own families, they've got their own careers, 126 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:53.639 and they've been very successful in their own right. But 127 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.360 my world stopped. My world stopped when my daughter transitioned. 128 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.319 So that kind of gives you and the listeners some 129 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.959 additional context to what's going on. 130 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.720 Yeah, that gives a tremendous amount of context. Do you 131 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:15.560 think that there is anything that could have happened that 132 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.680 would ever have been able to prepare you for that 133 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:19.839 kind of loss? 134 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:26.120 No? No, I never even jahad allowed myself to even 135 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.759 go go there. I never allowed myself to even visualize 136 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:32.360 what it would be like without one of my children 137 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.399 physically present. And I was what a friend of mine 138 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.559 would call one of those fortunate others. I would read 139 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.080 accounts of parents who had lost a child in my 140 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.480 heart would go out to them, but simultaneously I was 141 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:49.879 glad it wasn't me. But then it became me, and 142 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.399 my whole perspective shifted. Every time now that I saw 143 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.720 a parent, I brought about a parent a paper's child 144 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.000 had died. The amount of empathy and compare ashion and 145 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.039 shared pain that I had for a person that I 146 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.360 did not even know, but yeah, we were bound together 147 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:10.600 by the unthinkable changed. And I think one of the 148 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:14.519 things that's happened over the twenty one years is that 149 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.559 my compassion has grown not only the people that I know, 150 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.080 not only to my students or to other people that 151 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.200 are in my life, but to people that I don't 152 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:29.159 even know who've experienced life altering loss, and particularly that 153 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.639 involving the death of a child. Because I can say 154 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:37.639 I know what it's like. Unfortunately I can say I 155 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:38.279 know what it's like. 156 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:44.200 Let's get into understanding a bit about grief. Could you 157 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:50.360 explain what grief is and how it can manifest differently 158 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:50.840 in people. 159 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.600 Well, first of all, with any loss, there are consistent 160 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:01.080 changes that occur physically, psychologically, cognitively, and socially. And I 161 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:06.440 have found that to be consistent with those individuals that 162 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:12.240 I have companioned after loss, things like inability to sleep, 163 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:21.759 fatigue beyond fatigue, compromised immune systems due to the excessive 164 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.519 stress of grief. You know, you talk about release a cortisol, 165 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:29.320 which is a stress hormone, and inability to sleep probably 166 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:38.440 six months after the death of a child, disorientation, disorganization, confusion, 167 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.080 obsessive rumination, which is playing over over and over the 168 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.600 last day of that person's life, regardless of cause of death. 169 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:53.480 And it isn't obsessive. Rumination isn't indicative of a mental illness. 170 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:58.159 It's our mind, it's our bodies and our soul's desire 171 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:01.279 to make sense out of what happened. So we replay 172 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.000 that story over and over and over again until we 173 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.320 can come to terms with it and accept what has happened. 174 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:13.480 Acceptance does not mean closure. Acceptance means that I can 175 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.320 accept that I am now living in a world where 176 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.759 my loved ones are not physically present. But I am 177 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.399 committed to service. I am committed to re engaging in 178 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:29.279 life with purpose, with passion in spite of what's happened. Socially, 179 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:32.600 relationships change, and I tell people expect that they're going 180 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:34.519 to change. The people that you thought were going to 181 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.240 step up, don't step up. The people that you never 182 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:42.320 expected to step up do step up. But when a 183 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:44.320 lot of times in early grief and then I can 184 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:48.000 speak for myself, and I've also talked to others. When 185 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.159 we ruminate over are the people that aren't there when 186 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:54.360 we should be, When we need to be grateful for 187 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:59.559 the people that are many individuals I have discovered did 188 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.679 not know how to how to handle my grief. They 189 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.879 did not know how to approach me. They were afraid 190 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:10.519 that if they mentioned my daughter's name, you know, they 191 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.519 were going to upset me. Little did they know that 192 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:15.759 I was already upset and mentioning her name would have 193 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:21.840 been of great comfort to me. And there are other things. Physically, 194 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.960 we are under a tremendous amount of stress, particularly within 195 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:29.240 that first twenty four hours to a week, where we're 196 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:35.120 susceptible to heart attack, We're susceptible to stroke, you know, 197 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.399 just you know, just because of the elevated levels of stress, 198 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:45.480 but we're particularly susceptible within that time period. So and 199 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:54.240 those those those conditions, those characteristics of grief will happen 200 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.360 with every loss. Just because I've come to it, to 201 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.799 accept and come to peace with the terms of my dog, 202 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:06.200 my daughter's loss doesn't mean that I can take that 203 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:10.080 bank that and automatically apply that on any other losses 204 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.879 that I have and will experience. I need to go through. 205 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.200 I will go through that same process with each and 206 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.559 every loss. And it's a process that needs to be 207 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.639 gone through. It's a process that needs to be expected, 208 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:25.320 and more so it's a process that needs to be honored. 209 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.639 What are some things that someone can do to overcome 210 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.320 the obsessive rumination? 211 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:38.600 I think one particularly the obsessive rumination is going to occur, 212 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.000 you know, I think throughout particularly early grief, but particularly 213 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.279 becomes more prominent as we get closer to specific milestone 214 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.159 dates such as the data that person's not their transition 215 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:58.000 or passing birthdays, any other significant milestone events that could 216 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.320 have involved that individual, like what of a friend, a 217 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.519 wedding of another setbling in that family. So what I 218 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:10.039 encourage individuals to do is one prepare for that, understand 219 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:15.320 that the obsessive rumination is going to probably become more talent. 220 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.840 And it's at that moment that to find some support 221 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:25.279 with individuals who are willing to hear where you're at, 222 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:28.919 to hear your particularly particular story, which is going to 223 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.080 continue to evolve each year that you grieve, and it 224 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.039 is going to be willing the hold space for whatever 225 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.480 you need to you need to talk about and you 226 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.480 need to come to terms with, particularly in that the 227 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.120 last moments or the last day of that person's life. 228 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:48.799 So it's about finding support. I think it's also about 229 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.080 trying to read as much literature as you can on 230 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:56.919 grief and memoirs of individuals who have experienced the same 231 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.480 type of loss to find out what they did to 232 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:03.159 get through at how they handled the obsessive rumination, how 233 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.720 they handled the anticipation leading up to specific milestone dates. 234 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.759 I found all of that to be specifically helpful for me, 235 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.559 as well as finding a really good support group that 236 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:16.840 could align with the specific loss that I had. 237 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.120 What are some common misconceptions about grief that maybe you 238 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.200 experienced or you know that other people have experienced. 239 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.000 Well, one is that one of our common misconceptions is 240 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.720 grief is linear and that it's time limited. And I 241 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.759 think Jahan this all started when Kubel A. Ross came 242 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.320 out I think of nineteen sixty nine with the Stages 243 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.840 of Grief. Elizabeth Koopbler Ross came out with the Stages 244 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.440 of Grief to give individuals who were dying an end 245 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:52.879 of life vocabulary to conceptualizer end of life chapter. But 246 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.519 in what happened, I think many in Western society said, oh, great, 247 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.759 this is how we grieve in general. So the expectation 248 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:05.960 began that we would start out with denial. What's progressed 249 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.240 to anger, with progress to bargain, and all of this 250 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.519 would go in a linear fashion for a six month 251 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.399 to one year period of time, which after that time 252 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.200 we would bury our grief in a little box, put 253 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.840 it aside, and move on as if nothing has happened. 254 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.600 The reality is that grief is very circular. The row 255 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.919 pain of grief can come up at any time, depending 256 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.399 on what's going on at that particular moment. I'll give 257 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.960 you an example in my own journey. Janine was eighteen 258 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:43.159 years old when she transitioned. In the seventeenth year of 259 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:49.279 her physical absence, I was beginning to experience grief as 260 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.240 if it was like day one. I couldn't you know. 261 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.799 I was having some physical pain. I was lethargic, I 262 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.000 was irritated. And then as I sat back and ref 263 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.119 and I also talked to another fellow travel around on 264 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:10.480 a path that we never thought we'd be embracing, she said, 265 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:14.400 you know, you're coming up on the eighteenth year. That 266 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.960 means your daughter will have been in spirit as long 267 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.880 as she was alive. And that was a milestone that 268 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.960 a lot of veteran grievers have gone through. And I 269 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.599 hadn't understood that until I experienced that. So that's the 270 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.519 example of circularity. It just come up at any time. 271 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.920 It's something. As I've gotten older in grief, I've learned 272 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.920 to expect. I've learned to look at that as just 273 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:42.960 another part of the deal. And you know, that's uh, 274 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.720 that that's so that's one of the that's again. So 275 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.680 that's one of the misconceptions grief is. Grief is not linear. 276 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:55.119 It's very circular. The other thing is, you know, the 277 00:17:55.160 --> 00:18:00.200 other misconceptions I think about grief is that we are 278 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.319 going to upset those individuals if we bring up that 279 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.799 person's loved one, you know, and in reality, where it's 280 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.079 the greatest gift when you've remembered and you want to 281 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.680 talk about that loved one and you acknowledge their presence, 282 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.000 you acknowledge that they have lived, that's the greatest gift 283 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.880 to somebody. And the the other thing with then we're 284 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:25.319 going to get to some gender specific stuff with with 285 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.359 men and with women. The other conception is that men 286 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:36.400 don't feel their grief. What is true is that men 287 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.720 feel grief. Most men feel grief. We just deal with 288 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:46.960 grief differently. We feel feelings as intensely as our female counterparts. 289 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:49.640 We're just can We've just been conditioned to deal with 290 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.720 it differently. Women it's been reinforced. And it's that they 291 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.240 can emote, they can seek support. Men have a great 292 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.160 deal of difficulty seeking and directly emoting their their emotions. 293 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.440 But what men tend to do is work through their emotions. 294 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.480 They tend to be active with that. If we're feeling 295 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.079 we're feeling upset, we distract ourselves from our emotions through 296 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:23.279 doing activity. And the misconception is that men men don't 297 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.839 have feelings like we do. We just we just express those, 298 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.279 we just deal with them differently. And I think what 299 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:32.000 I've told women in the past who have asked me, 300 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.920 why is them I mean can't express emotions well? Expressing 301 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.960 emotions for men have with it some great risks, the 302 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.079 risk of vulnerability, the risk of being seen is weak. 303 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.119 And this is not for all men. Maybe seventy five 304 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.319 percent of the cases you might you might find this. 305 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.799 But and the other thing is with men is that 306 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.319 you know that men are do not like it when 307 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:01.240 they're Women in their lives cry okay, there was a 308 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.839 woman's tears represent symbolically what a man couldn't do, and 309 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.720 that was protect their family. Every Time I saw my 310 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:15.559 wife crying, every time I saw my two sons in despair, 311 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.000 it reminded me that at that time I failed as 312 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.640 my job as a father's and I couldn't protect my daughter. 313 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.079 I couldn't protect my family from what had happened, and 314 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.079 that was there was a tremendous burden for me to 315 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.519 carry until I with the help with the help of 316 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.440 a lot of very supportive individuals, I realized that I 317 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.559 had no control over a disease that was incurable. I 318 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.960 had the illusion of control that I didn't have control, 319 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.160 and I was realizing that I did the best that 320 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.720 I could given the circumstances that were dealt to me, 321 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.720 and given the hand the cards that were dealt to me. 322 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.319 And the other thing is that you know, with all 323 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:55.559 the questions I asked in the world, it was very 324 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.799 simply in Sacred Law was my daughter's time to go? 325 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.039 Years was enough for her soul to to learn the 326 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.640 lessons that you needed to learn in her physical body 327 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.079 and then go after a new existence and the human 328 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.240 lae eighteen law Eighteen years wasn't enough, and it took 329 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:16.119 me quite a while until I met Reverend Patty Farino, 330 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:17.960 it took me quite a while to know the difference 331 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.480 between human law and sacred law as it relates to 332 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.359 an individual, to individual's death, and the answers are questions 333 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.079 surrounding that. 334 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:32.000 Okay, yeah, I totally get that. So with that, what 335 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:37.319 could be some healthy coping mechanisms that you could recommend? 336 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:43.039 Wow, First of all, I like journaling. I think whether 337 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.559 it's an audio journal that you keep where a written journal. 338 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.000 I like journaling, particularly in the early phases. You can 339 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:54.599 get all your feelings out uncensored, and it also gives 340 00:21:54.640 --> 00:22:00.759 you a written a written record of your progress as 341 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:05.039 you continue to journal. I encourage individuals journaling when they 342 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.240 feel a nudge to journal and to really keep it, 343 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.240 to keep it going, and then take a look at 344 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.880 the progress that you've made. And even you know, even 345 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:17.880 if you take two steps forward to one step back, 346 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.119 or just still one step back, and you still make progress, 347 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.440 but celebrate the progress that you've made. Journaling in a 348 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.759 written record of that or an audio record of that 349 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.039 that you can listen to or or read can be 350 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:35.240 very powerful. The second thing, even in kind of the 351 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.599 worst days of our lives, there's usually something good that 352 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.839 will happen to us, and I can encourage individuals to 353 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.960 try to keep a gratitude journal in terms of just 354 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.599 you know, just write down one thing a day that 355 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:53.200 happened that you could be grateful for. So that's the 356 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.200 other part of the other thing is support support in 357 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.920 a community that will will uplift to you, that will 358 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.480 validate your grief. So, for example, if it's an individual 359 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:09.559 who has lost a husband or a wife, espousal support 360 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.720 group would be ideal, or even a general grief support 361 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:17.279 group with a variety of different losses could work. Death 362 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:23.160 of a child, I would find a parent support group, 363 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.240 either through the Compassionate Friends with the Brief Parents of 364 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.000 the USA or through your local community. A lot of 365 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:34.839 times funeral homes will sponsor those types of meetings. Read 366 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.480 as much as you can, as much as you're capable of. 367 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.880 The Open to Hope Foundation has some very good brief 368 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.920 five hundred to one thousand word articles that for individuals 369 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.200 and early grief that may be all they can process. 370 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.759 The ability to concentrate increases, they can begin to read 371 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.440 more and more specifically memoirs of individuals who have transcended 372 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:00.920 grief or other challenges. The other thing that I have 373 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.799 I have found very helpful. And again this is what 374 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.680 the assistance of you know, the conversations I had with 375 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.920 you know, Reverend Patty far Reno was transforming the relationship 376 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:19.640 with my daughter by forming continuing bonds with her. The 377 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.160 best parts of who my daughter are now integrated into 378 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.839 who I am. So when you get me, you're going 379 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.319 to give me and you're going to get my daughter 380 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.279 as well too. We have become a packaged deal. And 381 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.440 symbolically I've integrated my grief. I have carried my grief 382 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.160 and I've carried her with me, and that has that 383 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:43.880 has given me, That has given me peace. And don't 384 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.880 get me wrong, there are days that I yearned for 385 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.240 her physical presence, but those yearnings are temporary. I also 386 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:55.920 understand that that's part of my permanent existence now. I happiness, 387 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:03.599 joy sadness, confus usual, anger, all of that are going 388 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:05.759 to be a part of my existence, and in reality, 389 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.599 it's a part of all of our existence, regardless of 390 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.400 whether we've experienced laws or not. I don't know if 391 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.160 I think I may have told you this in other 392 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:15.799 and other conversations we've had. I don't hang around with 393 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.920 happy people anymore. And I would encourage individuals in grief 394 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.240 to hang around with genuine people, people who are going 395 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.480 to be receptive to When they ask you how you're 396 00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:30.359 doing and you tell them, boy, today really sucks, they're 397 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.200 going to sit and create space for that. And I 398 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.240 also tell individuals don't ask a grieving person how they're 399 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:39.200 doing unless you're prepared to spend some time with them, 400 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.720 because they may need to talk. And this isn't just 401 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.279