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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about him. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening, Sarge is a fascinating memoir by the late
Speaker 7: Chicago Police detective Sergeant John A. DiMaggio, one of the
Speaker 7: most decorated officers on the force during a career that
Speaker 7: spanned the years nineteen fifty seven to nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 7: Among his awards are two Superintendentwards of Valor, Mayor Richard J.
Speaker 7: Dai's Praiseworthy Acknowledgment Plaque for Exceptional Act of Bravery and
Speaker 7: involving risk of life, a Presidential Citation of Appreciation, the
Speaker 7: Illinois Police Association Award of Valor, and many more. Upon
Speaker 7: his retirement in nineteen ninety one, DiMaggio wrote a fascinating
Speaker 7: account of his work as a cop. The manuscript languished
Speaker 7: among his personal effects until after his death in two
Speaker 7: thousand and eight, after which his family decided to resurrect it,
Speaker 7: spruce it up, and submit it for publication. It turns
Speaker 7: out that he was an excellent word craftsman and storyteller.
Speaker 7: In fact, he was no stranger to writing. For many
Speaker 7: years he wrote the Ask Sarge column for the Mystery
Speaker 7: Writers of America Midwest Chapter newsletter. Told in a conversational,
Speaker 7: regular guy voice. In episodic fashion, Sarge reveals to the
Speaker 7: reader what really was like to be a cop. The manuscript,
Speaker 7: in many ways, takes the form of a prose treatment
Speaker 7: of a weekly television police drama. A large selection of
Speaker 7: photos is included. Demaggio takes the reader back to the
Speaker 7: decades such as the turbulent sixties, when the police department
Speaker 7: was making a painful transition from old school to modernization.
Speaker 7: The author describes firsthand the legendary riots that occurred in
Speaker 7: Chicago after the assassination of marthlur Luther King Junior. He
Speaker 7: illustrates the integration of minorities into the department and how
Speaker 7: that played out. He also goes into famous cases of
Speaker 7: corruption and the politics of navigating such a large department.
Speaker 7: One of the set pieces of the book is the
Speaker 7: story of how DiMaggio, as part of the Three Musketeers,
Speaker 7: a trio that included two detectives who were close friends,
Speaker 7: investigated a series of terrifying slasher attacks on women that
Speaker 7: occurred in the city in the mid seventies. The case
Speaker 7: became one of the police departments most memorable. Among the
Speaker 7: other cases detailed in the book include how DiMaggio found
Speaker 7: himself entering the home of a crazed young man holding
Speaker 7: hostages with a shit shotgun, the investigation of the discovery
Speaker 7: of a headless corpse, the takedown of the Chicago mad mommer,
Speaker 7: how an anonymous audio tape provided clues to the identities
Speaker 7: of arm robbers, and the man hunt or a cop killer.
Speaker 7: The book that we're featuring this evening is Sarge Cases
Speaker 7: of a Chicago Police detective Sergeant in the nineteen sixties, seventies,
Speaker 7: and eighties, with my special guest, attorney Deborah DiMaggio. Welcome
Speaker 7: to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 7: Deborah DiMaggio, Thank you, Dan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much. I forgot to introduce to the
Speaker 7: audience your collaboration in this book as collaborator and executive
Speaker 7: producer and publisher. Let's start off immediately with the genesis
Speaker 7: of this published book by your father. When was it written.
Speaker 7: When did he retire? Tell us about some of the
Speaker 7: details and the genesis of this book, Sarge.
Speaker 5: He retired in February of ninety one. His retirement party
Speaker 5: was a month or two later, and we saw so
Speaker 5: many people show up up to honor him. And then
Speaker 5: my parents went to Las Vegas, where many Chicago police
Speaker 5: retire and they find security jobs in the casinos. So
Speaker 5: I think my dad worked at a golf course for
Speaker 5: a little bit and he had some security jobs part time.
Speaker 5: He was writing this book and it was a memoir,
Speaker 5: and it started out simply focus on the Dominique Slasher case,
Speaker 5: and he visited the prison and obtained an interview, and
Speaker 5: in the book he quote unquote said he was fascinated
Speaker 5: by the criminal mind, and this case got to him,
Speaker 5: and I think he wanted to understand the reason for
Speaker 5: those crimes and perhaps humanize the perpetrator on some level,
Speaker 5: not thinking or saying he should be released, but to
Speaker 5: simply understand him the why. So after my father's death
Speaker 5: in two thousand and eight, my brother shipped all of
Speaker 5: the manuscrit to me, and being the lawyer in the family,
Speaker 5: they thought I might have some contacts, so I would
Speaker 5: mention it here and there, and organically I met an
Speaker 5: entertainment lawyer, I met a screenwriter, and interestingly enough, the
Speaker 5: screenwriter his career. He went into making horror films because
Speaker 5: of the book Three Boys Missing, which was another crime
Speaker 5: on the Northwest Side and it was very highly unusual
Speaker 5: for crime in that area. And then we met down
Speaker 5: the line Raymond Benson, who is an acclaimed author with
Speaker 5: more than forty books and was hired by Ian Fleming
Speaker 5: for the Bond series to author a book some of
Speaker 5: their novels. And I know that my dad had some
Speaker 5: help from Wayne claff so he should be given some credit.
Speaker 5: So we wound up getting Crossroad Press. They were interested.
Speaker 5: I got a message the day after my birthday, We'd
Speaker 5: be honored to publish your dad's book. And here we are.
Speaker 3: Now when was this book launched?
Speaker 5: October of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 7: Now, before we start, we're going to talk about the
Speaker 7: Robert Dominique case, and we're going to talk about another
Speaker 7: case of the Valerie Percy murder. Let's talk about the
Speaker 7: book launch and who shows up the book launch.
Speaker 5: We had the book launch, and I stayed in touch
Speaker 5: with one of the victims, who will remain anonymous, and
Speaker 5: my dad used anonymous a fake name in the book,
Speaker 5: and I asked their permission to have the book published,
Speaker 5: and they said that your dad was our hero, and
Speaker 5: anything he wanted, we want. And I don't think they
Speaker 5: ever listened to the tape. I'm not sure if they
Speaker 5: read the book, but they attended the book launch and
Speaker 5: remained anonymous to the crowd that showed up, family and friends.
Speaker 3: You right that you always knew your follow was a cop.
Speaker 7: But in the writing and well the publishing of this
Speaker 7: book and the collaboration and getting it all together for publication,
Speaker 7: did you learn in that regard?
Speaker 5: I learned what he was doing each day, and why
Speaker 5: he had so much fear, and why he was so strict.
Speaker 5: And we didn't know anything about the day to day
Speaker 5: goings on his police work when we were kids, and
Speaker 5: it wasn't until college law school those years that we
Speaker 5: learn about the cases, but not in the detail where
Speaker 5: his life was in danger or how brave he really was.
Speaker 5: We saw the camaraderie and the brotherhood of his friends
Speaker 5: and fellow police officers. They were so tight, tighter than
Speaker 5: any other industry. And I learned about his integrity and
Speaker 5: how honorable he was. I certainly knew that as his daughter,
Speaker 5: but it was really made evident. We knew about his
Speaker 5: work ethic, We knew it was honorable, We knew it
Speaker 5: was just worthy. We knew he was honest, but we
Speaker 5: didn't really realize the time and what a rear breed
Speaker 5: these police officers are in our society.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, you say, this book is filled, and this book
Speaker 7: is filled with stories of your father's bravery and other
Speaker 7: police officers, his unique brand of integrity that sometimes went
Speaker 7: against the brass, his intuition, his intellect in trying to
Speaker 7: solve crimes, and his great passion for the badge itself
Speaker 7: and justice, and his energy that he put forth in
Speaker 7: this relentless pursuit of justice that he had basically from
Speaker 7: his own volition. You talk about one of the stories
Speaker 7: in this book, and this book is filled with stories
Speaker 7: of burglary, robbery, murder, and the sixties riots Martin, Luther
Speaker 7: King and beyond. Let's talk about a case that your
Speaker 7: father was instrumental in solving, and a particularly interesting case
Speaker 7: of a woman named Valerie Percy, her father Charles Percy,
Speaker 7: running for the Senate in nineteen sixty six, tell us
Speaker 7: about Percy tell us about Charles Percy and his family
Speaker 7: and this campaign that he was involved with in nineteen
Speaker 7: sixty six, and what happens September eighteenth, nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 5: Well, it's fascinating because the murder occurred into Kenilworth and
Speaker 5: it's a very wealthy suburb of Chicago, and crimes just
Speaker 5: don't occur, and maybe littering or a speeding ticket, but
Speaker 5: not murder. And he was a celebrity. He was the
Speaker 5: chairman of Ellen Howell, who was a state senator and
Speaker 5: more than likely was going to run for president. This murderer.
Speaker 5: And I asked my father and he said, this criminal,
Speaker 5: the man that he believed committed this murder likely climbed
Speaker 5: a tree that faced their windows and spied on this
Speaker 5: family for weeks to know their patterns, and he was prepared.
Speaker 5: And it came down to looking at them and criminal
Speaker 5: scaff patterns. And it was based on this pattern that
Speaker 5: I believe my father figured out who did it, and
Speaker 5: he was convinced. It remains a cold case today. But
Speaker 5: I heard through people who knew Senator Percy, that Senator
Speaker 5: Percy knew about the young detective assigned from Chicago who
Speaker 5: told Senator Percy, who he believed killed his daughter. And
Speaker 5: then you had the twin Sharon, who was engaged to
Speaker 5: John D. Rockefeller the third And I think they didn't
Speaker 5: want any more publicity once they knew that this career
Speaker 5: criminal died in jail escaping from jail, or trying to
Speaker 5: escape from jail and dove into what he thought was
Speaker 5: a river, but it was really a creak. That was
Speaker 5: the end for the family, But on the books it
Speaker 5: remained the cold case.
Speaker 7: Your father brings this horrifying story, horrifying for the family
Speaker 7: and of course for Valerie. On September eighteenth, nineteen sixty six,
Speaker 7: he writes that an intruder cut through the patio screen
Speaker 7: and glass section of the French doors of the Percy
Speaker 7: seventeen room mansion, and this is in the exclusive suburb
Speaker 7: of Kenilworth. The mother, Lorraine, is awoken by the sound
Speaker 7: of broken glass and she goes to investigate her daughter's
Speaker 7: room and she finds a shadowy figure standing over her
Speaker 7: daughter about five eight, one hundred and sixty pounds, and
Speaker 7: she awakes her husband, but this person gets away. And
Speaker 7: what you talked about this how your father had solved
Speaker 7: this was right away in the autop she she had
Speaker 7: been hit with a heavy instrument that left peculiar pine
Speaker 7: cone shaped dense in her skull. So your father being
Speaker 7: astute and following this investigation, and this book is also
Speaker 7: filled with so many fateful events where it seemed to
Speaker 7: be divine intervention to assist people like your father in
Speaker 7: these investigations that were so important to him and of
Speaker 7: course to the victims and their families. But in the
Speaker 7: course of his investigation, and doggedly he pursues this, he
Speaker 7: does find that peculiar cone shaped weapon or the weapon
Speaker 7: that produced those cone shaped type wounds on this person's
Speaker 7: on valeries had didn't it right?
Speaker 5: In the autopsy room there was a case of weapons
Speaker 5: and the handle of a certain old fashioned gun had
Speaker 5: that triangular part to it, and he asked them to
Speaker 5: take it out of the case. And I think that
Speaker 5: was the turning point. And not only that, the history
Speaker 5: of the criminal he had a contempt for the wealthy,
Speaker 5: and he would put himself on even par by taking
Speaker 5: over their house, by taking their possessions, by robbing, by
Speaker 5: in this case murdering, and in one case he defecated
Speaker 5: on the floor and then wiped himself and left a
Speaker 5: silk scarf there. Another one, he killed the cat and
Speaker 5: placed the pett the dead pet, next to the sleeping
Speaker 5: woman in the house. In another case, he ejaculated into
Speaker 5: a condom, tied the condom, and then put it in
Speaker 5: the woman's purse before he left after robbing the house.
Speaker 5: So this was one truly extraordinarily sick individual.
Speaker 7: These stories are filled with the connection that he has
Speaker 7: with other police officers, the trust that he has in
Speaker 7: his partners, and he has, as in the Dominique case,
Speaker 7: an opportunity to hand pick his partners and his team.
Speaker 7: It's very interesting in this Percy case that he was
Speaker 7: given information through another detective who had an informant, and
Speaker 7: that detective got information from that format, but as he writes,
Speaker 7: he could not get that information verified. So he went
Speaker 7: to your father, and then your father was able to
Speaker 7: go ahead and verify some of this information. Again, these
Speaker 7: stories are all filled with a combination of your father's integrity,
Speaker 7: is keen intuition, and then just some faithful turn of
Speaker 7: events that end up being a lucky thing, like him
Speaker 7: stumbling into or not stumbling but walking into the crime
Speaker 7: lab and just having a look after he had spoke
Speaker 7: with Johnson, Chief Johnson. So this is the kind of
Speaker 7: things that this book is filled with the stories of
Speaker 7: bravery where your father runs out of a runs into
Speaker 7: a building where a woman is screaming, doesn't wait for
Speaker 7: the fire department, sometimes doing foolish things, and sometimes bucking
Speaker 7: the system that he's working in the police department that
Speaker 7: he's working for, and being temporarily demoted for his insubordination.
Speaker 7: But yet he regrets none of it because he was
Speaker 7: part of his character and part of his need to
Speaker 7: do what he felt was necessary, sometimes often refusing some
Speaker 7: direct orders to be able to pursue what he felt
Speaker 7: was necessary.
Speaker 5: Right, he had a little bit of dirty Harry, and
Speaker 5: I definitely found that out. And part of it was luck,
Speaker 5: but part of it was talent. And he was very
Speaker 5: competent and trustworthy. So the superintendent knew that he could
Speaker 5: assign the two man team and trust my father, and
Speaker 5: he was dedicated. I saw a lot of perseverance. He
Speaker 5: was thorough, perfectionist, high iq disciplined, and work ethic, and
Speaker 5: those are traits that he taught us. So he told
Speaker 5: me he didn't give a lot of advice, and I
Speaker 5: think he was really happy that I became a lawyer,
Speaker 5: because he wanted to become a lawyer. But my mother
Speaker 5: got pregnant and he went on the police force and
Speaker 5: dashed that hope. But he told me, you get one
Speaker 5: reputation in life, you don't get a second chance.
Speaker 3: You say that.
Speaker 7: He also didn't talk about his work being as a father.
Speaker 7: He did not bring that home, did not at all.
Speaker 5: We would see him on television here and there when
Speaker 5: he made a big bus or big pinch they call it,
Speaker 5: but or see in the newspaper, but we didn't know
Speaker 5: the danger he was in. He was a police officer,
Speaker 5: he also remarked, and it was interesting how he also
Speaker 5: talked about it in the book. The public association with
Speaker 5: the police department is usually traffic stuff, and that's their
Speaker 5: only connection or what they see or their only interaction
Speaker 5: with the police. And he said it's really a shame
Speaker 5: because they don't see the detectives, the sergeants, the commanders,
Speaker 5: and all the work that goes into working a homicide
Speaker 5: case or a robbery, or seeing how the victims and
Speaker 5: their families are so appreciative of the hard work and
Speaker 5: the dedication of those officers and the patrolmen are certainly
Speaker 5: any traffic stoff could wind up being their last, and
Speaker 5: they are certainly working hard. But he did comment it's
Speaker 5: unfortunate that the public doesn't see the other work that
Speaker 5: the police officers are doing to selve crimes.
Speaker 7: He writes about many of the cases that he was
Speaker 7: involved with and talks about the kinds of things that
Speaker 7: police officers see sometimes on a daily basis, working in robbery,
Speaker 7: working in a big city, working when murder.
Speaker 3: Rates were very, very high, and crime rates were.
Speaker 7: At their highest, without the police having almost any semblance
Speaker 7: of technology in order to assist them. He talks about
Speaker 7: employing that camaraderie between police officers and how they cope
Speaker 7: with some of the trauma, like some of the things
Speaker 7: seeing a person blown his face, blown off, his body, headless, corpse.
Speaker 7: And this book is filled with those kinds of thing
Speaker 7: things that a police officer, whether a veteran or a novice,
Speaker 7: would have to experience those things and then after decompress
Speaker 7: and recover from that. And your father talked about the
Speaker 7: ways police officers did do that.
Speaker 5: Yes, they had each other, and only that's when he said,
Speaker 5: only a cop can understand another cop. That tightened the
Speaker 5: bond between them, and most of his friends were fellow
Speaker 5: police officers, detectives that work for him, worked with him,
Speaker 5: and he really had a team approach. He didn't act
Speaker 5: like a boss. He and he really taught us that
Speaker 5: they were a team. And once when he had back
Speaker 5: surgery and he was on pain killers, I decided to
Speaker 5: venture and ask him a question. What was the toughest
Speaker 5: case you had to solve? And he said, oh, that's
Speaker 5: easy to answer. No head, no hands, no feet, And
Speaker 5: that was the case. You mentioned the tru Anna hotel.
Speaker 5: And I don't think correct me if I'm wrong. I
Speaker 5: don't think it's mentioned in the book. And maybe he was.
Speaker 5: Maybe he was trying to protect somebody from making a
Speaker 5: mistake on the crime scene. But first they found out
Speaker 5: who the murdered person was by locating his car that
Speaker 5: was left parked on the street. Okay, but how did
Speaker 5: they catch the murderer. There were wine glasses, so the
Speaker 5: woman wooed the murderer into the hotel room and the
Speaker 5: boyfriend or colleague, her colleague was there waiting to murder him.
Speaker 5: And I think it had to do with drugs, And
Speaker 5: there were wine glasses and from the prince on the
Speaker 5: wine glasses and I don't think that was in the book.
Speaker 5: They picked up and it led to the murderer, the arrest.
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Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 7: When we last left off, we were talking about the
Speaker 7: cases that really struck your father as extraordinary, and those
Speaker 7: are the ones that are included in this incredible book,
Speaker 7: Serget Cases of a Chicago Police Detective Sergeant nineteen sixty
Speaker 7: to nineteen eighty one of the cases that affected him
Speaker 7: the most, and it is testament by the coverage that
Speaker 7: he does, the amount of detail that he goes into,
Speaker 7: and this particular story titled the Three Musketeers. First tell
Speaker 7: us who these three musketeers are. At least tell us
Speaker 7: about the three Musketeers before we start.
Speaker 5: They were detectives that my father respected and enjoyed working
Speaker 5: with because they were intelligent, dedicated, loyal, hard working, honorable,
Speaker 5: and they had the same traits that he had. And
Speaker 5: another trait that I left out. I think that police
Speaker 5: officers are pretty non judgmental because they see they see
Speaker 5: the fabric of the life where these people are situated,
Speaker 5: and he saw both sides. He saw criminals who are
Speaker 5: kind of good guys, and he saw some cops who
Speaker 5: kind of worked with guys. So it just leaves you
Speaker 5: non judgmental. It's very, very similar to handling divorce cases
Speaker 5: like I do. Just you're non judgmental. You just take
Speaker 5: it where these people are at and you go forward
Speaker 5: with it. So I have the pleasure of meeting mister
Speaker 5: Nolan and mister Rochel, who were part of the Three Musketeers.
Speaker 5: I was probably much too young, and I know that
Speaker 5: we lost mister Nolan at a very early age.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 7: Your dad writes that A long nightmare began half an
Speaker 7: hour before dawn on Saturday, November eighth, nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 7: with nineteen year old Carrie Barnes.
Speaker 3: She was out at a bar.
Speaker 7: She bumped into an acquaintance of hers, Mike Butch Brooks.
Speaker 7: She left this bar and noticed a strange looking man
Speaker 7: behind her and thought she was being followed. Had that feeling,
Speaker 7: but then when she got right up to her home
Speaker 7: there was a man with something in a paper bag
Speaker 7: and he was asking for directions. She thought maybe he
Speaker 7: was drunk, but then he said, hey, you want to
Speaker 7: be nice to me, how about a blowjob? So she
Speaker 7: was angered and said why don't you go to Howard
Speaker 7: Street and look for it? And then he said I
Speaker 7: want to blow jab. He got aggressive and said he
Speaker 7: want to have sex, and she said, if you don't leave,
Speaker 7: I'll call the police.
Speaker 3: Regardless they he.
Speaker 7: Pulled a blue handle that was protruding from the bag
Speaker 7: and said he was going to kill her, and then
Speaker 7: he drew it. What this was was a hatchet from
Speaker 7: the bag. She panicked and ran and then he attacked
Speaker 7: her in this hallway, took the light, took the light
Speaker 7: bulb bout so it was dark to assist him, and
Speaker 7: hacked her with this hatchet.
Speaker 3: Right, tell us a little more.
Speaker 5: He was merciless. He went for her face and there
Speaker 5: were thirteen glows ultimately with this axe, and then left
Speaker 5: her for dead and raped her. And somehow she was
Speaker 5: able to push a button and get her mother's attention
Speaker 5: or her sister. Her eye was out of her socket.
Speaker 5: It was It was brutal, absolutely brutal.
Speaker 3: She tells police.
Speaker 7: Because police asked if she knows who were an attacker is,
Speaker 7: and she says, who what does she tell police attacker.
Speaker 5: The boy she was at the bar with, but it
Speaker 5: wasn't him, and later on she didn't even remember saying that,
Speaker 5: which when my dad interviewed Butch, in his heart of hearts,
Speaker 5: he didn't think this guy was the guy who did
Speaker 5: it and no reason to attack her like he did.
Speaker 5: And that's what and that really sparked my dad into
Speaker 5: action because what he believed was this innocent man in jail,
Speaker 5: there was someone out there was committing these crimes and
Speaker 5: who was going to do it again. Andy did so. Again,
Speaker 5: my dad looked for them. And it wasn't just like
Speaker 5: in the other case, just like in Percy when the
Speaker 5: informer or the police officer who had the informer. They
Speaker 5: trusted my dad and that's earned over many years. And
Speaker 5: then here we are back to reputation that he could
Speaker 5: handle it, he could take it to the next level,
Speaker 5: he could solve the crime. Andy did so.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you write that he took it to this Lieutenant Gallot,
Speaker 7: and Gallot listened to him in earnest to what he
Speaker 7: had to say regarding Brooks's innocence and also that there
Speaker 7: was someone else responsible completely and this looked like he
Speaker 7: had said like the beginning of something like a series
Speaker 7: of things. Again, the serial killer, the even the word
Speaker 7: series associated with serial crimes was not coined as of yet,
Speaker 7: was it right? Kerry had been struck eight times on
Speaker 7: the top of her head sixty of and five times
Speaker 7: in the face. She would recover but remain disfigured for life,
Speaker 7: and she was in a coma for several days, and
Speaker 7: they asked her if she wanted her dead eye to
Speaker 7: be placed in the socket or an artificial one put in.
Speaker 7: So with this the confidence of Lieutenant Gallot, and there
Speaker 7: is a felony review system. What happens in terms of
Speaker 7: persuading and getting enough evidence to be able to be
Speaker 7: able to caller this person.
Speaker 5: Well, thankfully, Lieutenant Yella just in my father and allowed
Speaker 5: the investigation to continue, and they drove around the area
Speaker 5: knowing that this could happen again, and when they got
Speaker 5: the call. The next attack was five days later, on
Speaker 5: November thirteen, but this time it was a stabbing with
Speaker 5: a hunting knife, and everyone else around my dad said
Speaker 5: it wasn't an ax. It's not the same, and my
Speaker 5: dad matched the viciousness, and that was the connection between
Speaker 5: these crimes and also the mention of a blowjob, and
Speaker 5: that they were attacks on young women and the weapon
Speaker 5: was with a blade, and the attack on the face,
Speaker 5: the focus on the face. And then they cross checked
Speaker 5: when they got closer to catching him, and they got
Speaker 5: the logs from the diner he was working, as at is,
Speaker 5: a short order cook, and sure enough he was off
Speaker 5: on the dates of both attacks, and he.
Speaker 7: Attacked another woman, as you mentioned, Maggie Flynn, and as
Speaker 7: you say, very even though it was a knife, there
Speaker 7: was similarities that your father recognized right away. But to
Speaker 7: his credit, even his own team of two other officers
Speaker 7: didn't necessarily.
Speaker 3: Agree with them, did they.
Speaker 7: That's right, but Lieutenant Gallat said persevere and continue with
Speaker 7: this investigation. He had that kind of confidence in your father,
Speaker 7: didn't he.
Speaker 5: That's right. And then Maggie ultimately gave the artist rendering,
Speaker 5: and they both everyone said he had these dead, glassy eyes.
Speaker 5: And if you take a look at that artist rendering
Speaker 5: and take a look at his directional picture or it's
Speaker 5: the penitentiary intake photo, yes, the correctional corrections photo, yeah,
Speaker 5: you can notice notice what they described. And ultimately that
Speaker 5: helped and again my father saw the pattern and these
Speaker 5: career criminals looked up were their sex offenses. They have
Speaker 5: a history, and when he was let out of jail
Speaker 5: or on probation, and they figured it out. And there
Speaker 5: was another attack with a knife November sixth, where Dominique
Speaker 5: took her purse, but it was listed as a robbery
Speaker 5: and that's why they didn't know about it. So this
Speaker 5: actually started before the November eighth attack.
Speaker 7: You're right of another attack with the Christine Peacher. She's
Speaker 7: a twenty three year old traveling on a train and
Speaker 7: she was followed from that station again this perpetrator. This
Speaker 7: perpetrator carried a black attache case and no words were spoken,
Speaker 7: and then when she tried to go inside, he pulled
Speaker 7: a small axe from under his jacket and lunged at her,
Speaker 7: and she tried to fight him off, and he flashed
Speaker 7: her head. She grabbed the hatchet, but he had done
Speaker 7: incredible damage and then he calmly put that hatchet in
Speaker 7: his briefcase and left the lobby, calmly and slowly.
Speaker 3: Incredibly, Christine survived.
Speaker 5: Incredibly, All these brave girls survived strength their will. There
Speaker 5: was another attack where you know they're part of it
Speaker 5: was he was drinking beer taking the CTA thirty minutes
Speaker 5: after he attacked Maggie Flynn and the CTA patrol stopped
Speaker 5: him and found that knife, and I think that was
Speaker 5: one of the clues where they really were onto him
Speaker 5: as a result of that.
Speaker 3: It's a man hunting.
Speaker 7: Your father chronicles every move that he and his team
Speaker 7: make and they finally find out that from a parole officer.
Speaker 7: That's not corrupt, he says, many are. He says he
Speaker 7: found out the address or the former address. Then he
Speaker 7: ends up at a flophouse and they're prepared for a
Speaker 7: dangerous individual from the viciousness of the attacks, but they
Speaker 7: bang on the door and to his surprise, how does
Speaker 7: Robert Dominique answer the door?
Speaker 3: What's his attire?
Speaker 5: He opens the door and he's in frilly girls underwear
Speaker 5: and lingerie.
Speaker 7: So he's not so dangerous, it seems by his appearance.
Speaker 7: Your father talks to him, questions him, is he cooperative?
Speaker 5: Very? And it wound up being his birthday. He said things.
Speaker 5: Everything bad happens to him on his birthday. He may
Speaker 5: have been relieved that he was caught.
Speaker 7: He asked he wanted to talk about his problem. He
Speaker 7: has to talk to your father and the others about
Speaker 7: his problem.
Speaker 3: What did he say? His problem primarily was he was
Speaker 3: abandoned and he was cast away.
Speaker 5: He was institutionalized when he was thirteen. He hated his
Speaker 5: mother and all the attacks on women. He pictured and
Speaker 5: visualized his mother and wanted to just hit their face
Speaker 5: and destroy them like he thought she destroyed him. And
Speaker 5: yet in other moments he would say she was the
Speaker 5: only one that protected him from his aunt who was mean,
Speaker 5: and his stepfather who rejected him.
Speaker 7: Let's just say, as an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 7: second for these messages.
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Speaker 7: You talk about his abandonment, your father writes about his
Speaker 7: abuse that he claims and that he hated his mother.
Speaker 7: His mother put him in an institution when he was thirteen,
Speaker 7: and he said, I don't know how much you can believe,
Speaker 7: but like your father had said, he believed it is
Speaker 7: that they said, we're not putting you an institution, we're
Speaker 7: getting rid of you. So he stayed in that institution,
Speaker 7: he says, and was abused and learned to sexual favors
Speaker 7: for money, he said, in that seven years in that institution, Yes, and.
Speaker 5: Then there was an incident at age sixteen where he
Speaker 5: was raped and they denied it. He was drugged, he
Speaker 5: was anally raped and required ditches in his anus, and
Speaker 5: yet they continue to deny he was raped.
Speaker 3: Dominique.
Speaker 7: When he was talking to your father and the other officers,
Speaker 7: some point asked, because he seemed to figure out that
Speaker 7: women did he attack weren't dead, and he was surprised,
Speaker 7: wasn't he?
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 7: The thing that fascinated your father greatly was the idea
Speaker 7: that this was such a vicious killer. But he was
Speaker 7: such a polite and seemingly calm, polite individual. Again I
Speaker 7: say polite, but he was very confused with this dichotomy
Speaker 7: between the two characters, the viciousness and this contrite and
Speaker 7: polite criminal polite.
Speaker 5: Yet he never showed he remorse.
Speaker 7: No, your father worked on this case, and at some
Speaker 7: point sixteen years later I believe, he writes he was
Speaker 7: interested in interviewing Robert Dominique.
Speaker 3: Again, why was that? And tell us more about this interview.
Speaker 5: I think this case haunted my dad. He and like
Speaker 5: you pointed out, he couldn't understand that dichotomy. And like
Speaker 5: you said before, he was fascinated by the criminal mind.
Speaker 5: And now he had the time, the wherewithal and by
Speaker 5: writing the book, wanted to understand all of it a
Speaker 5: little better. How did this man come to being to
Speaker 5: be able to act like that? What happened to him?
Speaker 5: And he was very calm and thorough in the interview,
Speaker 5: and just like a deposition, you'd get more bees with honey.
Speaker 5: And even though my dad didn't go to law school,
Speaker 5: after hearing that interview, and of course I heard it
Speaker 5: after he passed away, I was very proud of him.
Speaker 5: He conducted himself like a lawyer, and he didn't put
Speaker 5: an answer into the question. He asked an open ended
Speaker 5: question and let the answer be the truth and whatever
Speaker 5: the answer really was, and it really is a fascinating interview.
Speaker 5: I hope that you'll listen to it.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, he was only sentenced for the attack back of
Speaker 7: Maggie Flynn, but yet he was given deservedly one hundred
Speaker 7: to two hundred years in prison. So by the time
Speaker 7: your father went to interview him, but there was no
Speaker 7: animosity whatsoever for putting him behind bars, was there none
Speaker 7: at all?
Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, my dad mentioned he was
Speaker 5: his first visitor in sixteen years now, one wow, person
Speaker 5: in his life had visited him.
Speaker 7: You're right too that his friend, one of the Musketeers
Speaker 7: three Musketeers, Paul Rappel was had volunteered to go with
Speaker 7: your father as well to the interview. Again, just just
Speaker 7: curious and another dedicated cop. Yeah, it's something you can't
Speaker 7: walk into alone. Tell us more about this interview and
Speaker 7: what your father learned. Dominique had helped police go to
Speaker 7: all the crime scenes and gave all the.
Speaker 3: Details of his attacks, very very cooperative.
Speaker 7: As you had mentioned, what if anything did your father
Speaker 7: learn from this interview in terms of any kind of
Speaker 7: evidentiary value whatsoever.
Speaker 5: Well, backing up in the book, my dad mentioned that
Speaker 5: the ax wasn't in his apartment, and he said he
Speaker 5: went hunting for another woman, didn't found find her. Didn't
Speaker 5: you have the right urge wrapped the axe up and
Speaker 5: put it in a dumpster. And when they were driving
Speaker 5: around the scenes where he had committed these acts of
Speaker 5: violence and attacked women, he brought them to the dumpster
Speaker 5: and sure enough there was the ax. So they had
Speaker 5: the weapon that he used. And like you said, it
Speaker 5: was very cooperative and during the interview at Staysfill prison
Speaker 5: he was very forthcoming. I don't think I remember a
Speaker 5: question that he said, I don't want to answer that.
Speaker 5: Anything my dad asked, he answered and gave Lura details.
Speaker 5: And when he was I think seven years old, there
Speaker 5: was a neighbor down the street who was I guess
Speaker 5: you'd say, a pervert who would have him give him
Speaker 5: oral sex. And then he would give the boy of
Speaker 5: seven oral sex and gave him women's clothes to wear,
Speaker 5: and then when he went home, he'd wear his mom's
Speaker 5: clothes and if the mom caught him, then she would
Speaker 5: beat him for doing that. So it was he gave
Speaker 5: the details of his life that he was cast away,
Speaker 5: his father left, or they were divorced at a very
Speaker 5: early age. The stepfather resented him. He had a blind
Speaker 5: younger brother brother, I think, and after being institutionalized, that
Speaker 5: became his life at age thirteen, and it was very
Speaker 5: sexual from a very young age. And I remember at
Speaker 5: age eleven he tried to have his first act of sex.
Speaker 7: He talks about the rage when all of the age
Speaker 7: was released. He'd the wall would come back, he'd say,
Speaker 7: and he'd feel relaxed. So he talks about as you
Speaker 7: as you mentioned this urge, he just he said to
Speaker 7: your father in closing, when he was walking out of
Speaker 7: the facility after the interview, he called out to your
Speaker 7: father and said, the maggio, if you write a book,
Speaker 7: make sure you tell everyone there are a lot of
Speaker 7: lucky women out there, because I looked at a lot
Speaker 7: of them, but I just didn't have the urge. I
Speaker 7: know when that urge is coming. And your father wrote
Speaker 7: at that time in this book he says if he
Speaker 7: was ever paroled, he'd strike again.
Speaker 5: No doubt, a good reason for him to stand jail.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, it's fascinating that he was so cooperative. Again, each
Speaker 7: serial killer seems to have these shared characteristics. But as
Speaker 7: your father writes in this book, and shows and demonstrates
Speaker 7: that this is a very unique killer. And thankfully he
Speaker 7: was met with your father and was cooperative and gave
Speaker 7: up the details. As we write, he only was convicted
Speaker 7: of one attack, even though there was four women that
Speaker 7: brutally attacked and disfigured and traumatized for life.
Speaker 5: And I don't understand that, but perhaps it had to
Speaker 5: do with some of the women weren't stable enough or
Speaker 5: willing to testify, because it seemed like the trials back
Speaker 5: then happened much more quickly than they do.
Speaker 7: And I think too that if you look at the sentence,
Speaker 7: which was one hundred years to two hundred years, it
Speaker 7: looks like with that one conviction that one and I'm
Speaker 7: not sure if there was multiple likely there were multiple
Speaker 7: charges attached to this, including attempted murder to get the
Speaker 7: one hundred to two hundred years, but I think prosecutors often,
Speaker 7: it seems my experience, that they tried to focus on
Speaker 7: the most provable and winnable case, and with a kind
Speaker 7: of sentence like this, it really doesn't matter. I know
Speaker 7: it will matter to the victims' families and the victims themselves,
Speaker 7: but in judicial terms, it won't really matter. Since he
Speaker 7: will have an effect of a life sentence and will
Speaker 7: die in prison.
Speaker 5: Right, I was trying to think of it. It's called
Speaker 5: the correctional profile and it's one hundred and ninety nine
Speaker 5: year sentence.
Speaker 7: I want to thank you so much Deborah DiMaggio for
Speaker 7: coming on and talking about Sarge cases of a Chicago
Speaker 7: police detective sergeant in the sixties, seventies, and eighties, or
Speaker 7: people that might want to take a look at this.
Speaker 7: I know this book has been released in twenty eighteen
Speaker 7: and it's all over Amazon.
Speaker 3: That's where I found it.
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about the Facebook page that
Speaker 7: will be up for Sarge.
Speaker 5: There's also an audio version, and we won the Audio
Speaker 5: Book Award for Memoir category. And we have a company
Speaker 5: called Come Together Entertainment, LLC. It's listed under that, and
Speaker 5: there will be a Sarge Facebook page, but it's definitely
Speaker 5: on Amazon. I have to do is Google Sarge. And
Speaker 5: I'm pretty proud of the cover art. Matt Devine, the
Speaker 5: lead singer of Kill Hannah, designed it. It's one of
Speaker 5: my best friends and he did this in one take.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 5: The only change was this is my dad's original star
Speaker 5: and we put the original on there.
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
Speaker 7: There's also interesting note the Dennis Farina of Law and
Speaker 7: Order and Goodfellow's fame. There's a couple of photos where
Speaker 7: they share and embrace Dennis Farina and your father. A
Speaker 7: very interesting collection of photos as well, including your father
Speaker 7: and many other his colleagues from the time a service
Speaker 7: with the Chicago Police Department. I want to thank you
Speaker 7: so much, Deborah Dimagio, for coming on and talking about
Speaker 7: your father's incredible book, Sarge Cases of a Chicago Police
Speaker 7: Detective Sergeant in the sixties, seventies.
Speaker 3: And eighties. Thank you, thank so much for this interview,
Speaker 3: and you have a great evening, and good night, good night.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Dan, thank you.