Speaker 1: You're listening to the Puck What You Whisper on the
Parallel UK radio network.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, thanks for watching. I am super excited about
my guests today. This is a subject that's near and
dear to my heart. So hank tight and I will
be right back with Stevie from the Truther Demon's podcast.
Hey Stevie, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm great, How are you good?
Speaker 2: Good? I'm super excited, Like I said, to talk about
this today. It's one of my favorite things to kind
of rant about.
Speaker 1: Yep, same, yep.
Speaker 2: So my introduction to the Warrens was in middle school.
My best friend's mother took us to a lecture and
then I read The Demonlogist, and my twelve year old
brain said, Wow, this guy is so sure about everything.
He must know something I don't because he's seen things.
And then as you get older, you realize he was
just saying what he wanted to say, yep, and he
was contradicting him yep, yep exactly. So what was your
introduction and how did you get interested in the Warrens?
Speaker 1: So my first ever I think my first ever knowledge
of the Warrens came from TV. And I want to
say either like Daytime TV or that show, that show
Paranormal State with Ryan Buhle, because I saw The Rain
a lot on TV. I didn't see ed so much
on TV when I was younger. I didn't start seeing Lorraine,
I guess until we got really into ghost TV, like
anything on TV that was paranormal. And my family's already
always it's been interested in the paranormal, like ghost movies,
anything based on a true story, we're super into. And
then when like the Conjuring films came out, that's when
I really deeped over the warrants because I'd heard about
them from probably age eight, but I didn't really know
anything until those movies came out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I know you've mentioned going on like investigations
and ghost tours with your mom.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that is amazing. That is so cute. Do
you think she Yeah, did we see an influence on
you in that aspect?
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, because I remember seeing Lorraine on TV
and I myself, I think I was between probably thirteen
or sixteen somewhere in there when I first saw her
and my mind said, oh my gosh, a real psychic,
and my mom said, oh, I really don't like her
and I look at her and I'm like, why she goes,
I don't think she's a real psychic. She comes off
as a phony to me. And my mom's saying that,
and me having so much no trust in stock and
what my mom says, I was like, Oh, that's really interesting.
So when the movies came out, I remembered that, and
that's what really sparked my curiosity and like need to
know things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had kind of the opposite where I had
that friend's mom who was like, oh no, this is
like the real deal, and I was like, okay, okay cool.
And then so I'm in Connecticut. I live about an
hour from where the Warrens did. There are a lot
of people here that have, you know, personal stories or
you know, people that have worked for Nesper that have
started talking recently, like Eric Vitale, for one.
Speaker 1: I love Eric's got a lot to say, and I
fully support him. He's been through a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the things that I've kind of
had a little bit of difficulty with is separating what
is Tony Spira BS and what is Warren BS. Yes,
have you experienced the same thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've act I've absolutely noticed that being a thing
because when I first started, it was Warren BS that
I was after debunking and after correcting and after proving
even and because I didn't want to. My goal wasn't
just to disprove. My goal was to find the truth,
regardless of what it was. And then that's when I
ran into the Tonybs. Because Tony is woven into everything
from the eighties, Like he had the seekers of the
Supernatural show on the Public Broadcast Network and then moved
it to YouTube of course, so you see it there
and a lot of the times you see him now
on the documentaries, so you'll know what you know or
what you've heard about the Warrens and what they've done.
And then you'll see on the documentaries Tony comes in
and occasionally flips things around or changes the stories or
doesn't tell them exactly right. I've noticed, So.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I understand and getting details wrong or misremembering things.
But it's like a constant thing with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he really if to me my personal opinion,
it really feels like he's trying to create his own limelight,
like he's tired of the Warrens, like living in that
one and he really wants his own that he could
have his own platform.
Speaker 2: For Yeah, definitely, And it seems like that's what he
was trying to do with the uh what was it named,
Joe King saga there.
Speaker 1: The Linley Street story. Yeah, and I have a lot
of opinions about that in general, like him trying to
make it his story. It wasn't the Warren story. They
screwed it up and got fired from it. They were
sent away, so they didn't get to write a book.
They didn't get to, you know, have any claim to
any books that were written. They do get mentioned in
the book, but that book wasn't written until years later
when someone felt the need to tell the story, and
they're included because they're part of the story. So I
think that Tony going after this, this mission of making
Linley Street his story so he could you know, redo
it and redraw attention to it and be the star
of it with this joking person. I think that was
his main goal. I don't think he cared about much else.
He just wanted to write the book and be in
the limelight for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean to me, I think about Judy
Spira a lot, because Tony comes off a lot like
Ed to me, who I don't think was the best
example of what you would want in a romantic partner
to his daughter. And I worry very much that she's okay.
I you know, you hear that she is, but she'd
you know, she doesn't want to be involved, which I understand,
but yeah, I just it doesn't seemed like she had
a great childhood. And I think maybe you know, they
say that you like you date people that are like
your dad. I think it's more like you your dad
sets the tone for what you expect men to treat
women like. And I know I remember hearing you hear
that like Cutesy's story about how Ed and Lorraine when
they first get married used to drive up to a
house and do a painting and then go knock on
the door. But I've also heard that Ed used to
because Lorraine was shy, he would lock her out of
the car until she went up to the door.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That is just despicable to me. And you know, of course,
the the Judith what it was her last name, Piney, Penny, Penny. Yeah,
it's just so gross, all of it.
Speaker 1: Completely. When I first heard that thing about him locking
her out of the car and making her be the
one to go knock on the door and convince the
homeowners to let them in. He it really really rubbed
me wrong. It really the way it sounded didn't sit
right with me. But the way he says it sounds
so like he's trying to be Oh, it was innocent,
it was nothing. She didn't care, she was fine with it.
And it's that's such a domineering male thing that you
saw a lot in relationships like that where he didn't
really see her discomfort or her you know, unwillingness to
be that person. He just did what he wanted to.
Speaker 2: Do, right. Yeah, And I think I don't know if
I believe the whole story about the rain, like seeing
the tree growing and all of that's but I do think,
you know, she had a legitimate belief in the paranormal,
and I wonder if she would have gone in a
different direction if it weren't for Ed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder that too. Actually, and there's she has
one or actually I heard another story recently. So there
was two stories originally about how she discovered she had
her gift. The one was the tree. She saw the
tree mature in front of her eyes as they planted it.
And then another one was she saw mother superiors lights
were brighter than a different sister and she was reprimanded
for that. And then I was recently having a conversation
with someone and they said they thought they remembered her
saying on Paranormal State that she passed out or something
happened where she was out for a few minutes and
then when she came to she was psychic. I had
I'd not remembered that from the show, but I want
to go and like rewatch it and see if I
see it, because that's really interesting if that's another telling
of that that story.
Speaker 2: So yeah, their stories changed so much. Even like Ed
when he talks about his father, it doesn't add up
because you know, first he's a security guard on a census,
then he's saying he's a cop, and then at some
point he says he's a State Trooper.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And I thought that was so funny because
I'm a big Super Troopers fan, and you know, if
you watch that movie, those two are not the same.
Speaker 2: And yeah, if your dad was a State Trooper, you
would never ever in your life call him a cop,
exactly right, And.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't confuse those two so easily if he were
one or the other. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that is kind of a
question for me is, so Ed Warren isn't his real name, right,
It's Warren Mine.
Speaker 1: I believe Warren Edward Mine. Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did he ever address why he changed his name at all?
Speaker 1: I haven't found any public record of that. He's never
mentioned it on any interviews I've seen. I've never heard
Tony speak on it. I've never heard Judy speak on it.
Like a lot of people I have talked to throughout
my podcast journey didn't even know that was his real name.
And I know it because I decided to do you
know the history of the Warrens in my first episode,
and of course it led me to excuse me the
genealogy records and stuff like that, which showed like marriage
certificates and everything, and on every one of them it
was Warren instead of Ed, you know. And so I
wonder if it was a stage name situation where they
thought it would be protection from, you know, for their
private lives. And then another part of me wonders if
it's because he had the smallest little criminal history. And
I don't know if it was just that or if
that's the only one that's documented.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where my mind went with it too, Like generally,
like there are legitimate reasons not to use your real name.
But at the time he was doing it, it was
pre internet, right, I don't think people were as conscious
as much about like protecting their identity as they were now.
So I had kind of, you know, speculated that he
didn't want to be associated with something from his past
at least I.
Speaker 1: Agree, and also the obvious speculation of his desire for fame.
He really did want to be in the public eye.
He wanted people at his house all the time. I
don't think there was much thought of protecting their private life.
Speaker 2: I always thought it was weird that the museum was
in their house.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that until I started doing the research.
I always thought it was a separate entity. I had
no clue. And then someone said it was in their basement,
and then someone said it was attached to the house,
and I was like, oh, my goodness. One and then
when I looked it up, of course it's like sort
of a basement but also attached to the house because
you can get in it from an outside entrance. Like
there's a door directly to it. Yep.
Speaker 2: I did actually have the opportunity to go to the museum.
Speaker 1: Oh that's and it was.
Speaker 2: It was right before Ed died. I believe it was
very strange. I didn't realize it was in their house
when we went. So you get there and you're like,
it's is this am I in the right place? And
then you go down and it's very cheesy, like Halloween
decorations up and just kind of like random junk everywhere.
It was like, it was so awkward.
Speaker 1: I could see that. I've heard it's very cramped.
Speaker 2: Yes, yep. Yeah, it's literally like being in someone's basement
full of weird junk, like you know, your Halloween decorations
that you didn't put away yet or something, is what
it felt like.
Speaker 1: I always found that a little odd too, that he
made it so kitchy and so like a haunted house,
as in like a haunted attraction versus real paranormal things.
I always found that off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. And lots of crucifixes and things like that,
of course, and that was always one of the things
that bothered me about them. From the time we went
to that lecture. It was very Catholic coded, which I'm
not comfortable with personally, so I'm a bit sensitive to it.
But I remember thinking, like, he's so sure about himself?
Am I wrong?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Are my spiritual beliefs incorrect? Because this man is like
saying things with such you know, authority that you just
when someone speaks like that, you want to believe them,
like they're so sure about themselves and that. Yeah. Absolutely,
And looking back on it, that was absolutely, especially like
when you're a kid too, your naive and gullible, but
just you know, seeing this man that was an expert
talk so confidently about things, and they do use it,
like I feel, as a way to kind of manipulate
people into joining their religion. But there's also stories I've
heard from people in the area where they were turned
away because they weren't Catholic.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, there's no point in us helping
you because you're damned anyway.
Speaker 1: It's kind of what it was, Yeah, And I wonder
also if that has anything to do with their mission,
because initially it was ghosts and then somewhere there was
a switch and then everything was demonic. So I wonder
if if you're not Catholic of course you're not going
to accept a demon as the cause of your issues
as easily as a Catholic would, So I wonder if
that had anything to.
Speaker 2: Do with it too. Yeah, scary stuff sells, like we
see it today. Everything has to be sensationalized and scared,
Like I do a lot of stuff with cryptids, and
right now it's dog men because they're terrifying. That's a
popular thing. It just feels like, you know, it's scary
cells and people know that, so they're gonna, you know,
go for the scary version of things, right, and also.
Speaker 1: The familiar, Like you said, the dog man thing is
a big thing that's in every culture, so that's easy
to get people to latch onto as a possibility.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: And so EDS was demons first ghosts, and then you know,
the Extorsist came out and everyone's afraid of demons now,
so that's the real easy thing to latch onto. Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the things I thought was interesting was they
went around saying, you know, demons aren't inhuman, they've never
been human. And then you get to beth Sheba Sherman, Yeah,
who they basically said was like a ghost, a witch,
and a demon and all of this stuff like that
went against everything else that they said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah, that is a very good point. That
was very contradictory because edw was he was real adamant
that she was an inhuman spirit. But she did They
did say she did live here, she did kill herself here,
she did kill a baby here. Like Okay, well, you
could argue the fact that she was demonically possessed herself
in her life which led to her demon being the culprit,
but that's a little far fetched in my opinion. So
we're going to recycle demons, like she's possessed and she
kills herself and then one hundred whatever years later, she's
back to possess the next person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just needed a break for one hundred years
or so, I guess. Yeah, yeah, So what is I know?
Even though you know, we criticize or you know, look
into kind of debunking things, we all have our favorite
cases for sentimental reasons anyway, which one is yours.
Speaker 1: That's really tough for me since I really didn't know
much about the individual cases until I started the research.
But so I'm gonna have to say the Seneteker one
because I loved that case before I knew it was
a Warren's case. And then on top of it being
related to the Warrens, even though that movie The Hunting
in Connecticut didn't include the Warrens, That's why I didn't
know until later, but the fact that they have this
relation to them. And then also, my all time favorite
scary movie based on a true story is The Entity
and the Seneneker Family. I believe took a lot of
influence from that film, and they even mentioned it a
couple times in interviews, and I think ED also took
a lot of influence from that film. So I have
to say that case just because it basically built itself
around one of my favorite movies and stories.
Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely mine is Arnie Johnson, just because I like,
I really would like to see I'd go into a
court and try to talk about demons. That would have
been great if the judge had allowed it.
Speaker 1: I agree. I am disappointed it wasn't allowed because the
amount of conversations we could have based around it, I
know would be amazing. But I think about that a
lot because Ed's main argument to be able to do
that was one, if you're going to swear to God,
you're going to tell the truth, how come you can't
include the rest of that stuff that would be you know,
like demonic would be in that same genre. So that
was one of his arguments. But another one was he
actually told reporters and then anyone that would listen that
in England they had gone over to England and they
said in England two cases had had the defense of
demonic possession and one in their cases. He said that,
Ed said that. So then you have these news reports
happening in front of the courtroom as the trial is
about to begin, and the news reporter is saying they
had these trials in the UK and they won on
the demonic defense. That is not true. They did go
try to go to trial with demonic defenses in two
different cases in Europe, but neither one of them made
it to trial as far as that being the defense.
So it was a lie. And Ed he knew no
one could look it up at the time, and so
he ran with it and got people to believe it.
And he really think, I really think he thought that
if he could get enough people in support of it
already being happening, you know, already have happened somewhere else
they would let him do it in America and he
could be this legend because he was the first to
you know, defend a case with demonic possession and be
the lead of it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's a lot of the story is them
like not anticipating people's future access to information. Yeah, and
I think even today, like Tony still doesn't expect people
to like fact check him. Yeah, Like I bet like
he's probably one of those guys that like can't confert
a PDF file or anything like that. He's just not
technologically inclined probably and probably like and it makes no
sense because he used to be a cop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like to do a cop on his team currently, Yes, yep.
Speaker 2: So I mean, and I think it would be great
for like someone with an investigator like trained background to
do paranormal investigations and you know, take the approach from
that lens. But he doesn't seem to do that, and
it's frustrating.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's also very religious public religious base. He bases
all of the discussions around demons and we've got rid
Like he even did a thing where he said, like
I did a whole video where he was trying to
introduce his story. He was going to tell with this
joking person about Lindley Street where he talked about like
twenty five percent of the world is or under a
demonic attack or something.
Speaker 2: And like it was, so, where do you do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has all these statistics. Everything is demonic. He
he loves to post on Facebook that anyone who's opposing him,
like me or Eric or anyone in the community who
is against the ridiculousness that is nesper he comes and says, Oh,
it's just because demons are taking over and demons will
turn on you and make your friends and family turn
on you. And he just says all this wild stuff
about why it's a demon's fault.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's probably telling people like your possessed.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. I had a comment I'm not sure
who was from, but someone said, I think you're the
demon in this and so yeah, that's me. I'm the demon.
Speaker 2: Well, twenty five percent is one out of four people,
so like everyone just take a quick look around you
figure out which one has the demon.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's how you get exercised, because anybody can
do that for you.
Speaker 2: Is that is has the narrative change to.
Speaker 1: That It seems like it to me, they're constantly pushing
how you need to get the church's permission, and they
have to do it through the Catholic Church and the
and the Vatican has to approve it, like that's always
been the baseline. But then if you read the books
and you read the stories and you watch the movies,
everybody's performing exorcisms at any time. Arnie was exercised into
church by well, some people say it was exercised in
the rocking chair, which is why it's on it. And
then some people say, like the book, the book says
he was taken to a church and the rights of
something we're performed there. And they always specify that it's
not a full blown exorcism, it's the rights of one
thing or another, and then but they'll still throw in
the word exorcism. So it's actually really confusing for me.
And I really really want to do an episode where
I break that down because all the different things that
are said, I want to know what correlates to what,
and like whose permission comes from where. It's so confusing
and they just if to me, it feels like they
just do whatever they feel like doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in the Conjuring House, they said you're not Catholic,
so we can't do an exorcism, so let's do a seance.
Like you already have this demon or whatever, so you're
going to do a seance instead of an exorcism, Like,
what is the point of that? Wou didn't they think
that would be opening more things up? And from what
they've said in the past, because you know, if you
touch a board, are going to get a demon. Yeah,
it's kind of the mentality. So I just I didn't understand, like,
we can't do an exorcism, so we're going to do
a seance. That never made sense to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and if you so, there was a
time where somebody addressed that and the answer was I
can't remember who said it or where it was, but
the answer was, we have to do the seance to
call in the spirit or whatever to bring them forward
to banish them. So the whole goal was to banish her,
and if they couldn't do it through an exorcism, ed was,
I guess one hundred percent sure he had the ability
to or Lorraine even I think was part of the
plan was to psychically ban her once she was present
or something like that. But I know Andrea said. Andrew
Parrin said that she didn't understand why they came in
wanting to banish everything. That didn't make sense to her.
They just automatically want to ban it whatever's happening without
looking into what it actually is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's not. It's not gonna sell books if
there's a friendly ghost, right, so you have to get
rid of it.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And interesting, like you might think this is. So, there
is an Enfield in Connecticut and there is a house
there they call the Enfield Demon House, and my friend's
team investigated there. Somebody actually got I guess you would
call it like psychically strangled by this demon there supposedly,
And they went into the house and said, you know,
do you want us to do like a cleansing get
rid of it? And they're like, no, no, we want
to go on TV. Don't get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean. So that's the thing about these
places that claim to be haunted. It's so interesting to
me how they make money this way, How the draw
you're scared of what's in your house, but you want
people to come and investigate it. Like it's such a
weird dynamic because the way we were like brought up
around this situation. If there's something in your house, you
want it to be gone, you don't want it anymore.
You're calling in the investigators to help get rid of it.
Now we're calling in the investigators to just prove it's
there and make money off of it. So you have
all these locations. I don't know the history of the
Infield demon House per specifically, but I know that other locations.
I know there's some places in California. I know there
are some other places in New York. And there's just
these attractions and they don't have the history they claim
to have. It's this big sham on like the Bell
Witch is one that has a lot of controversy around it.
It's near me and there's no proof they say there is,
but if you actually look into it, it's wrong, or
it's inaccurate, or it's not even there. And I read
once that the whole reason it was started was for tourism,
So it all comes back to making money on it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know people will make money off of
very strange things, like you know, houses where people were
murdered in I live. My dad is from Fall River
where the Lizzie Borden House is okay, and I've stayed there.
You know, I gave them my money too, because you know,
I'm same.
Speaker 1: To be honest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know if this is right or not,
but I feel like the more time has elapsed between
a horrible event and now like the last icky it
is to do that kind of thing, Like I'm not
gonna rent an Airbnb that someone was murdered in last year.
That's gross to me. I don't know if that's the
right way of thinking about it or not, but no,
I can definitely.
Speaker 1: Agree with that. It feels less tangible being so far
in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I actually thought it was weird that that
place is supposed to be so haunted and the Warrens
never touched that and it's pretty close.
Speaker 1: And it probably had something to do with the fact
that they ran into a lot of no's, Like a
lot of people were like, no, we don't want to
have anything to do with that kind of thing you're after,
because apparently Ed would lead with a lot of the time,
we can make you a lot of money. There is
a whole rumor going around what was a rumor going
around in the seventies about the Linley House about how
the family intended to make a million dollars. And I
personally feel like that came from Ed's influence, because he
did approach people with the whole I can make you money,
let me write a book, let me make a movie
kind of situation. I mean, you have guyline Playfair who
said he came to directly to him over the Infield
House in England saying I can make us a lot
of money if you join me, and he's like, no,
I don't want any part of that.
Speaker 2: In Lindley Street, didn't they get fired from calling the press?
Speaker 1: Yes, So they were invited by the neighbor who happened
to be Mary Pascarella, and she had was part of
the psychic stuff and she had just gone to a lecture,
so she knew who the Warrens were because she just
attended a lecture. So she was like, oh, these are
the people for this problem, goes and gets them, brings them.
All they care about is calling everybody. They charged up
long distance calls to the press on the Good's phone.
And there's a lawyer later that served the Warrens to
make them pay for those long distance calls. And they
were sent away because they brought a circus. It was
a sideshow. There were people selling like stuff at the
location while people were hanging out hoping to see a demon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think if the family had been the
ones that were in it for the money, they would
not have been so quick to put a stop to that.
Speaker 1: I agree completely. I think that's a very valid and
important point that people don't really talk about.
Speaker 2: And they also had I can't think of his name,
but there was a priest that said, like, can you
please stop saying my name and talking about me and
leave me out of this. I don't want anything to
do with you. Stop calling me.
Speaker 1: Oh wow. I hadn't heard that or found that yet,
but that's really interesting. All I know of is they
worked with Father Enoch, and Father Enoch actually did like
his own stuff later where he continued to say that, yes,
this aunting really did happen. I was there, so I
mean he didn't. He was new to working with the Warrens.
They had just met him when they were called to
this case, and they took him with so I don't
think he was so influenced by ed as some of
the other people might have been.
Speaker 2: Have you looked into father Enoch at all. His name
is kind of a red flag for me, but I
haven't kind of deep dived him at all.
Speaker 1: I agree completely insane. I haven't had a chance to
look into him. I did watch one video he made
very recently, not very very recently, but within like the
early two thousands, and he was still in the mindset
that there was a haunting there. So I would like
to look into him because he is mentioned a lot
in the book and the fact that he was new
to the Warrens has me wondering where his ideas and
stuff really like, what he really his real opinions on
it and stuff were, So I do want to look
into him. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it was Eric Vitali or someone in his
Facebook group that had posted something. I think it was
a priest that had worked with Nesper and not ed
and Lorraine directly. Possibly, But he has a website now
that has a test you can take to see if
you have demons.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: Some of the questions like we would both definitely have
demons for sure. I think that's kind of like the
point of it is, everyone has a demon. But the
questions are like, are you ever sad? Are you ever
angry like who isn't are you human? Right? And then
it got like homophobic for a while. So I did
this sas just for fun, and I'm pretty like if
there were so many questions, but I got annoyed like
part way through. But I'm like almost positive it would
try to sell you an exorcism at the end, that's
where it was heaving.
Speaker 1: That would not surprise me one bit.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. And I think that Ed and the Rain
really influenced the kind of mentality. You know, they were
around during like you know, peak Satanic panic time. Yeah,
and I'm not saying that they caused Satanic panic or anything.
Speaker 1: But they definitely took advantage.
Speaker 2: They took advantage. They definitely influenced a lot of people,
even me as a kid. You know, I'm sitting there
like questioning my belief system because this man sounds so
sure of himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally get that. And as a child, you're
you expect the adults in your life to be telling
the truth. You don't know at a young age that
people are capable of those kind of lies, and you
never go into thinking that. You never have the little
voice saying, oh wait, you should maybe check this so
that it bothers me that Ed spoke to kids too,
because he did a lecture in the nineties at a
summer camp with kids ranging from thirteen to fifteen. I
was told I interviewed a guy that was present for it.
He was fourteen or fifteen, he said, and he said
that one of Ed's points that he made. So he
told me that they brought in Ed and Lorraine as
like one the guests because the summer camp was full
of all these things that they got to do and learn,
and they thought, I guess the wares would be a
fun addition. So they bring in Ed and Lorrain and
they proceed to talk about ghosts and hauntings and demons.
And then apparently Ed decides it's a good idea to
tell all these children that if they don't listen to
their parents say their prayers, they will be victims of
incuby and sucuby. And then he explained what incuby and
suckuby are to these children. And the man I interviewed said,
you know, I didn't think about it until I was older,
but how many of those kids in that audience were
suffering actual sexual abuse at home? Like how many of
these kids are now so in fear for their lives
that they don't think they're safe anywhere. That it just
blew my mind that he felt like it was okay
to say those things to these children. And apparently it
got cut off like immediately after this was out, and
the counselors and guides were like, uh, we didn't know
this was going to happen. We're sorry, that's the end
of it. But he said, yeah, it was, he said,
thinking back on it, it was a really uncomfortable moment.
Speaker 2: So my mom would have been so mad if I
came home from camp and told her about.
Speaker 1: That, right, I said the same thing. I was like,
did you go home and tell your mom? Did your
mom like lose her mind? And he was like, well,
I was a fifteen year old boy. I don't know
if I really cared to tell her. I don't remember
if I told her. I was like, I'd have gone
home immediately and told my mom what I just learned,
because I would have been so scared. I'd be like, Mom,
this was just told to me. Is this true? Do
I have to worry about this? And then my mom
would have lost her mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I would if my son's about turn sixteen,
if he came home and told me that he would
like he knows enough from me being his mom that
it wouldn't have affected him, but he would have been like,
you'll never guess what happened exactly.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: But if you if you're raised in a more I'm
going to say Catholic, but you know other religions too,
and then you hear something like that, it might have
more of an impact on you too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree completely. And it's such a that is
such a scary thing in the physical world. Imagine knowing
you can't do anything about it. Like the fear of
it in the physical world is so real every day
for especially for women that you carry weapons, you're prepared
to defend yourself. But if it's a spirit that you
can't physically see or touch, it can only touch you,
that's utterly terrifying. It's it's no wrong for him to
plant in the minds of children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was very victim blamey, which is ironic because
you know, allegedly, allegedly he was a predator himself.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So very interesting that he would victim blame when.
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree completely and I think that that
comes up more than people realize the the personality traits
and the behavior traits of people who are predators. It
shows in their day to day and if you don't
know what to look for, you'd never notice. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially you know you're a fifteen year old girl,
you know. I you know, I think even you know,
into my early twenties, I wouldn't have been able to
pick out certain behavior that I would be able to now.
Speaker 1: Same. Yeah, I think back all the time, like people say,
would you ever go back to being a kid or
would you ever go back to high school? And absolutely
not unless I could take the knowledge I have now.
I would never put myself through that willingly again unless
I knew what to be prepared for. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You think back on things that happened at certain points
in your life, Like I looked like I was twelve
until I was about thirty, and I'll see an old
picture of myself and I'll be like, oh my god,
and I will judge every man whoever dated me until
I was about thirty, when it started to look like
grown up finally, and it like you just get those
like cringe moments looking back and Judith I'll call her
to a differentiate her from Judy Spira. I mean, it
was a different time then, I get that, but it
was also wasn't it like forty years or something like.
Speaker 1: That that she That's what they claim, they claim, So
depending on the source you access for the information, she
was either fifteen when she moved in or eighteen when
she moved in and the Warrens and I guess, I
guess Judy and Tony said this in retort to the
article that came out after the movie, said that they
took her in because she had nowhere else to go,
so they made it sound like they were saving her basically.
But if you look at Judith's behavior now in today's time,
the woman is absolutely obsessed with it. She is madly
in love with him, and to me, that translates to
she was also madly in love with him when she
met him, and that it wasn't a situation of her
needing help, It was a situation of her wanting to
be there, and she would let anything happen to make
that happen, if that makes sense. And I'm not victim blaming,
so please no one please think that I'm just based
on what I know about Judith today. That's how I feel,
and I don't like it. I don't like to think
of her being okay with that happening to her. But
that's how it seems. I don't think she understands or
even feels like she is a victim in any way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the part of that that doesn't add up
to me is how are you gonna, you know, rescue
this child when your own child is being raised by
your parents?
Speaker 1: Yes, who is never home with you? Who says I didn't?
I wasn't raised by my parents. I was raised by
my grandparents. That's a quote from Judy, And yeah, you're right.
And for they, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but
I think Judith and Judy are close to the same age,
so for them to bring Judith in it was very odd.
And then also I've heard people from Connecticut who were
around in the time where Judith was living there she
was being utilized as like a secretary, and people would
say that they were told she was a niece or
a cousin, and then also that she was helping out
with the Wares while they were away on trips. She'd
answer the phones, she'd take messages, she'd relay information that
kind of thing. People never saw that for what it
was because they were told so many different things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely the stories. I mean, you must have to
keep like notebooks and spreadsheets to keep like all of
these stories straight that are constantly changing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I have so many notes, and I get so
lost in what I wrote where because like my memory
is terrible. So if I have to remember who said
what off the top of my head, that's it's so
hard because everybody said something different at the same time.
Speaker 2: So yep. So one of the most kind of egregious stories,
in my opinion is Annabelle. There is the most There's
just no nothing about that that you can substantiate at all, really.
And also there's no rumors going around that Tony is
selling the Anna the Bell doll and then buying a
new one and then selling that one.
Speaker 1: I have heard that rumor. I've heard it. It's been
sold at least twice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the whole taking it on a plane
and Zach Baggan's got involved, and Zach yes, yep, and
he is I'm not gonna say he's fine, but he's
as fine as he ever was.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Where in the timeline was that one of their earlier
cases Annabelle.
Speaker 1: So yeah, they so some say it was their first case,
stuff like that. It is in the book The Demonologist,
and it is chapter three is where they start to
talk about it. In that book, they say they were
called in nineteen seventy Ed has said nineteen seventy one,
so I would assume. I've also seen nineteen sixty eight,
so I would assume within those three or four years
that's when that happened. But I don't believe it happened
as they say. I do believe that there were people
involved that initially this story was built around. I can't
say whether or not they were telling the truth, but
I did confirm they existed, So there is that. But
I just don't think because of like things like the
Twilight Zone episode and just the different things we've been
able to debunk, like you can't touch her and you'll survive,
the motorcycle accident didn't happen, that kind of thing. But
knowing that there were people involved initially that can confirm
is really interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And another thing that bothers me is the keeper
in a glass case and they wear those dumb oven
myths and they have to mover. Yeah, there is a
lot of you know, historical lore that glass is a
barrier for spirits. But the case isn't all glass, just
the front is, right, So if I had an evil
possessed doll, I would want glass on all sides of
the case, you know, just going off of like the
historical lore.
Speaker 1: No, that would make more sense if you were really
worried about it. So called power. Yeah, and they say
it's blessed or whatever, but I mean, okay.
Speaker 2: Right, just get rid of the demon if anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what's really interesting is that if Annabel is
just a vessel, what stopped whatever stopped her from leaving
that vessel when not in the case, right, because if
you go by what they say, the case would keep
the demon in the doll. So all the time she's
been moved, even though she's being handled with care, she
is still exposed to the world as far as she's open.
And I don't understand how the vessel is trapping her.
I don't see the logic there.
Speaker 2: And they must have blessed the oven mits they hold
her with too, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: They did. And they put religious what are they called
little charms, little religious charms are sewn into them.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a fun, fun fantasy world to live in,
I guess, but I do think like there are if
you really believe in some things. I do think it
puts a bit of power in it. I just don't
think that Tony or anyone actually believe in them and
it's all for show.
Speaker 1: I agree completely. And I've heard people say, like, of course,
a lot of my a lot of that is hearsay,
a lot of it is rumor, a lot of it
is just he said, she said, But enough people say
it it leads you to think it might be true.
And I've heard enough people say that Tony's not It's
just a show to him. He's just trying to make
money off it. That's the only goal, The only goal
at all is to make money and make sure the
story stays alive so it can make money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't. I mean, you look at a lot
of other people that have had a lot of experiences
in the paranormal, and you know, there are a lot
of people's views of things tend to evolve and progress
and change over time. As they experience more and people
have they become very i'll say softened and sensitive. You
know when they've had these experiences. He does not come
across the way I'm used to somebody that's had that
many paranormal experiences come across. He comes off like a cop.
Speaker 1: You're right, you're right. Yeah. And to further that, it
just popped into my head as you were saying that.
I don't think Tony himself has ever said he has
had an experience on any investigation, like an investigator would
have had an experience at some point. And he claims
to be an investigator and to be helping people. And
I know that Dan is his lead investigator now and
probably takes care of everything because Tony is older and
he probably wouldn't go on as many investigations as he aged,
but he would still have some stories under his belt.
And it doesn't seem like he cares to reiterate any
experiences of anybody else, Like if you help someone, why
don't you have a story about it?
Speaker 2: Right exactly? And you know exactly remember the story about
how he meant Judy. But I do remember he had
gone to war in lectures and was like knew about
them and they were very well known and famous at
the time. Yeah, it seems a little bit calculated.
Speaker 1: To me, I agree with that, and I've had other
people point that out to me, because Tony's story is
he was parked in his patrol car one day and
he saw her go into a store or leave a store,
and at some point decided to engage in conversation with her.
And I guess at first she didn't want any part
of him, and he just kept being persistent in a
I don't know, a flattering way. I'm not really sure
he tells the story, but like you said, it seems calculated.
Like if he was going to lectures and he was
aware of what they were doing, I feel like you
would know they have a daughter she was grown. Yeah,
it feels like he maybe organize that so it would
happen the way it did. I can definitely see that,
and people have pointed it out to me before, So
it's not just you and me agreeing on that idea.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, he just gives creeper vibes, is the best
way I can put it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to agree, And because of that, I
have lots of people that come to me and they're like,
did you know this about Tony? Did you know this?
And there's a lot of public information about Tony from
when he was a cop. That is, it makes you
question Tony as a person, as to question his morals.
The articles are interesting. If you look up Anthony Spira
or Antonio I'm sorry Antonio Spira in the newspaper on
any archive, you'll find all about his time as a
cop and what happened.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and and then Joe King came up. Yeah,
I I wasn't sadly, I wasn't really surprised, disappointed, not surprised,
But what kind of emotions were running through your head
when you were stumbling across this information about Joe King.
This is so.
Speaker 1: Interesting to me how it all happened because I wasn't
really following their podcast. I know it was started in
sort of a retaliation everything that was going on on
social media, me partly my show, the things people were
slinging back and forth with memes and such. They got
really upset and decided the podcast would be a good idea.
I wasn't paying attention. I had a lot going on
at the time date my day job was insanely busy,
and they had done I think two episodes and then
announced they were going to have a special guest done,
and they were going to talk about the famous Street case.
And one of the people who helps me do research
knows a lot about that case and was instantly like,
read flag about it, because who on earth could they
be bringing up now when pretty much everyone has passed away.
So she sends me the link. She's like, you gotta
watch this. I watched the little like advertisement for the
episode and he talks about how they're going to have
their special guests, and so I made sure I watched it.
The live came on, I pulled it up, and I'm
watching this joking person tell his story and he's saying
that he was there, he was seven years old, and
he alongside Marcilla, the little girl who actually experienced the hunting,
experienced it with her. And I knew the story already.
I've read the book. I've read the book several times
because when I'm writing an episode on a story, I
read the book like a million times just to make
sure I get everything straight, everything comes out right, because
I get confused to easy and that kind of thing.
So I know I pretty much know this story by heart,
and everything he's saying, like every time he brings up Marcia,
it feels like my gut is just like freaking out,
and I'm like, why is he talking about her like this?
Why is he throwing her under the bus for everything?
She was abusive, She tormented him, She made his life hard.
He was just a poor kid from a bad home
and Laura was just trying to take care of him,
and anytime the Goods would give him attention, she would
punish him for it. And he's just saying so much
negative about Marcia. It was driving me crazy, and that's
what got me so fired up. I didn't know anything
about this man. I didn't know anything. I didn't even
have his real name because obviously Tony changed his name,
he says at the beginning of the episode. Some names
may be changed for the privacy and protection of people involved,
and it struck me because the only name that was
changed was Joe's. They used everyone else's real name. So
about halfway through, I was committed to finding this man
and figuring out who he was so I could prove
he was lying. That was my main goal because I
knew he was lying. I knew he was flat out
telling the biggest lie, and so I didn't have his name.
All I had was his face, and I used his
face in several search engines, and each one of them immediately,
like within seconds, showed me his criminal record. And that
was not a thought for me. I did not expect to.
I mean, I wasn't surprised, to be honest, that that
was what popped up first, but it wasn't my first thought.
And then, of course, when I saw what the criminal
record was for. We all have a past, we all
do stupid things in our youth, we all have things
that were not proud of, but this particular record was
something no one should ever defend, be proud of anything
like that. He is a child sex offender and he
committed sexual assault and battery on a child under fourteen.
And when I saw that, I just so many things,
like so many emotions. First of all, Tony, did you know,
if you didn't know, what were you thinking, If you
didn't know what were you thinking? Like if you just
looked into his story, if you just verified, simply verified
that this man did live in Connecticut in nineteen seventy four,
the records would have been right there just like as
instantly as I got them with just his face. So
it bothers me that Tony either didn't do any any
research whatsoever none, or he knew and he didn't care
and thought he could just get away with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think, like I said before, I don't
think Tony realizes that people are going to google things now. Yes,
not everyone as naive as they used to be. And
there are ways to get this information now that there
didn't used to be.
Speaker 1: Yes. And when it comes to criminal records like that,
those are very republic for reason, like they're very accessible,
they're very easy to find. They'll spell it out for
you in detail everything you need to know because you
need to know about these people so you can keep
your kids safe. That is the whole point of it.
So to overlook it or to not ever even see
it bothers me so much because they were only interested
in making money, that was the bottom line.
Speaker 2: Yep. And he had a failure to register too, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And somebody brought up to me that, So a
failure to register looks bad for many many reasons, Like
you could be hiding, you could have been after a
minded about it, which you shouldn't be, because it's a
very serious thing, like especially if you're trying to exonerate
yourself which is what I'm being told I have been
told by Joe himself and someone else that is in
supportive Joe that has been trolling my YouTube channel, telling
me that Joe is in the process of exonerating himself.
I'm gonna be sorry for all the lies that I've
told and and all of that. So if that was
the true, if it were true, just for a second,
let's pretend the Joe is trying to exonerate himself. Why
would you failure to register in your new state? That
looks so bad for you, Like if your goal is
to get this fixed and removed from your history because
it didn't happen or for whatever, that is really bad,
that's such a red flag to me to anyone else,
Like failure to register means you don't want people to
know about you and what you did. So yes, I
can see how you don't want people to know because
you're trying to fix it. But if you're really trying
to fix it by the law, by the book, you
gotta do what you're supposed to do law wise. So
that I don't believe that for a second that he's
in the process of getting it removed. I believe it happened.
I believe he also has umptying domestic violence charges, so
he's clearly a violent person. And he has an assault
on a cop too, on a police officer.
Speaker 2: So yeah, And the thing that bothered me the most,
I mean, it's just bad enough that those people exist,
but then you have these, you know, quote unquote normal
people that are nesper fanatics that are defending him. And
there's no like celebrity or anyone that I care enough
about where if they were accused of that or associated
with that, that I wouldn't just say, I don't know
if it's true or not, but I'm done. It was
so bizarre to see so many people defending a child's abuser.
Speaker 1: You know, people said, where's your proof? Immediately after I
showed the proof, and I'm like, why are why is
this you know, something you would defend? I don't understand,
Like are you not processing what's like? I feel like
you're not grasping it, like you didn't you heard it,
but you didn't hear it. So I feel like it's
kind of I hate to say this, but it's kind
of like a cult situation where the people are so
blindly following no matter what you tell them no matter
what you say, it's not going to get through to
them because they believe so strongly in their following. And
Tony has that kind of following. I think it's got
a few thousand on their YouTube channel, and they're all
like old school followers. They've been around for a very
long time. They've been in support of Tony and Nesper
and the Warrens for a very long time. One of
the trolls that attacked me and said, where's your proof,
she's part of the Warrens Foundation in the Southern States.
I believe and these people, I get that they support
the Warrens and that it's so ingrained in them to
like that these are their people. But common sense and
logic need to step in at some point for you
to understand that people got hurt, A child got hurt.
Why is that okay with you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's hard to get a conviction for
something like that. It's hard to get someone to report
it to begin with. And you know what what was
going on. I don't know the you know, I don't know,
and I don't really want to know the details of
what happened, but you know it there's so many that
go unreported, Like how many times did it happen before
he got convicted of it?
Speaker 1: Is where Ione mentioned that to either how many times
before or even after? Like I don't believe for a
second in any sense that someone who does stuff like
this stops cold turkey.
Speaker 2: Right, yep? And you know, depending on you know, what
the situation was, that might have been normalized for Tony
because of Ed and Judith. Yeah, like if he got
kind of indoctrinated and thinking that was okay at some point,
he might not have thought twice about it.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that could also lead to so say Tony
did know about Joe's charges, but maybe Joe being a
good talker or a good liar, maybe he's fun it
in a way that made it acceptable to Tony. Maybe
he told him, hey, it happen this way, I'm trying
to get it removed, even though it was thirty years ago,
and that makes no sense. Maybe Tony just you know,
went with it because he really did just see the
dollar signs. And if someone's telling you, you know, hey,
I didn't do the things I'm accused of, and you
want to believe them, I guess that's your prerogative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it could have been like, oh, I was
I was twenty, she was thirteen. You know that was
normal at the time it was. It's still gross, like
I don't care, you know, different times. Seven years or
something like that is one thing when you're an adult,
but when you're a child, it's not acceptable. So we
know that they're under fourteen, and you know, no way
is that okay at that age. There's really no way
justify it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely disgusting.
Speaker 1: Agreed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've gotten a fair amount of backlash from that, correct, Yes,
it's been fun. Yeah, I've seen I'm not saying that
a man wouldn't get backlash, but I have seen women
get backlash in the paranormal community that men would not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I and I find the backlash interesting and very
telling since as because I'm sure these people are supporters
of either nesper and or Joe, And it's like, if
you're supporting these kind of people, what kind of person
are you? You're coming at me? Someone who is very
tries to be very transparent. I forget things a lot
and confuse myself all the time, but I try very
hard to be very transparent, very upfront, and tell the truth.
My whole goal is to find the truths and tell
them and along the way, I have to expose the
lies because that's part of it. So for you to
be a person that so blindly defends someone that hurts
someone else, like regardless of the child being hurt, that
is the number one issue. But he has hurt other people,
not just one person. So you're supporting someone who has
a habit of hurting people, who doesn't care about other people.
Why do you care so much about them? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's all the whole situation, everything about it
beginning to end, from Ed and Lorraine's first trips selling
paintings to what's going on now, all of it is
so just gross.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, it's got a very uncomfortable undertone.
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah, And I want to just kind
of I guess, you know, it's a little bit late
for a disclaimer, but I want to say, like there's
a difference between, you know, wanting to get the truth
out and enjoying a movie. And I know a lot
of people around here are like, like they almost feel
guilty for liking the conjuring. Yeah, so I just want
to say, like I still like the movies when I
say that all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the movies. The directors brilliant,
the casting was brilliant. The story as a story is good,
it's entertaining, it's scary. I enjoy the movies. I just
separate them from like I love to imagine these characters
that play Ed and Lorraine, like, I love to imagine
them as a separate thing, like they're their own, separate
characters of different universe that happens to have the same names.
And then I can enjoy it. I don't feel bad
about it. And because I want to support the artists involved,
because they're not aware of any of this. The actors,
the writers, the everyone involved in making a film, aside
from Warner Brothers, I think, but everyone who makes the magic,
they're just making art. They're not trying to sway you
one way or the other. They do put the whole
disclaimer about it being true, but you know that's for
shock value. You know that's to sell tickets. And the
people that don't know will eventually learn or they won't.
It's fine. It's just the people in the paranormal community
are worried about like being bamboozled and being lied to
we care. We want the truth, and that's who I
do it for. So yeah, so if you do like
the movies, no shame for me. I love the movies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just don't deface an innocent woman's grave because of
something in a movie. Right, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up, because I was just
told this morning that her headstone, her new one that
they raised money for, has been finished and it will
be going up very soon.
Speaker 2: That is amazing. I've been like checking Google every once
in a while to see because I know it was
like supposed to go in last fall, and then it
was March and it kept getting delayed. That's exciting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I'm sure that Jamie will send me pictures.
Jamie Rubio, I've been in contact with her and working
with her, and she was part of the team that
helped raise the money for it. So I'm sure she'll
send me pictures and I'll definitely send them to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with them driving a sense, so I might just.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure. I went when I was up
there in Salem, and I was really glad I got
to go. We went and did, like I paid money
to go to the house. I had to see it
for myself, like, and I had to hear the whole
story that they give and like it was for research,
but it was awesome for me. But it was really fun.
And I looked up the cemetery and it was just
down the road, so we just ran over there really quick.
I took some pictures. I paid my respects, and I
plan to, you know, do a little fun episode about it.
Make sure I get to pay her some more respects,
make sure people know that she is getting the new
headstone and the wrongs are being righted.
Speaker 2: Definitely. I am so glad that's finally happening, and no
one batter messed this one up.
Speaker 1: That's all I have to say, right, Yeah, Like, there
are a lot of people that will come for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if people want to learn more about anything
we talked about or follow you, where can they find you?
Speaker 1: You can find me on any podcast platform just search
Truth or Demons podcast. And I'm also on YouTube. Now
I am slower at putting the episodes up on YouTube,
but there are several up there. If you run out
on YouTube, you can always head over to Spotify or
Apple podcast through anywhere. I even read recently, I'm on Audible,
which is really cool, so anywhere you get podcasts you
can find it. And then, of course my main social
media is our Instagram and Facebook. You search, you can
just search Truth or Demons podcast and you'll find me there.
And then I am on TikTok. I'm just really bad
at keeping up with the TikTok. I plan to get better.
So if you do want to follow the TikTok, just
search Truth or Demons podcast.
Speaker 2: Excellent, Stevie, thank you again for joining me. This was
both a blast and horrible at the same time.
Speaker 1: And again thank you having me on to talk about
all that stuff because I know it's it's a tough
one for people to address.
Speaker 2: And as much information as we can get out the better.
And again, don't trust me, don't trust you. Go out
and formulate your own opinion. I don't want to say
do your own research, because now that's a yucky charm.
Speaker 1: Are gonna do your own research? At least do enough
to compare so you have at least you know some
ideas of what's all out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone just needs to remember critical thinking, I think. Again,
thank you very much and have a good day. Thanks everyone,
for watching,