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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Puck What You Whisper on the

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Parallel UK radio network.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, thanks for watching. I am super excited about

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my guests today. This is a subject that's near and

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dear to my heart. So hank tight and I will

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be right back with Stevie from the Truther Demon's podcast.

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Hey Stevie, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, How are you good?

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Speaker 2: Good? I'm super excited, Like I said, to talk about

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this today. It's one of my favorite things to kind

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of rant about.

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Speaker 1: Yep, same, yep.

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Speaker 2: So my introduction to the Warrens was in middle school.

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My best friend's mother took us to a lecture and

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then I read The Demonlogist, and my twelve year old

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brain said, Wow, this guy is so sure about everything.

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He must know something I don't because he's seen things.

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And then as you get older, you realize he was

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just saying what he wanted to say, yep, and he

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was contradicting him yep, yep exactly. So what was your

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introduction and how did you get interested in the Warrens?

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Speaker 1: So my first ever I think my first ever knowledge

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of the Warrens came from TV. And I want to

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say either like Daytime TV or that show, that show

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Paranormal State with Ryan Buhle, because I saw The Rain

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a lot on TV. I didn't see ed so much

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on TV when I was younger. I didn't start seeing Lorraine,

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I guess until we got really into ghost TV, like

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anything on TV that was paranormal. And my family's already

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always it's been interested in the paranormal, like ghost movies,

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anything based on a true story, we're super into. And

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then when like the Conjuring films came out, that's when

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I really deeped over the warrants because I'd heard about

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them from probably age eight, but I didn't really know

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anything until those movies came out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I know you've mentioned going on like investigations

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and ghost tours with your mom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that is amazing. That is so cute. Do

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you think she Yeah, did we see an influence on

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you in that aspect?

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent, because I remember seeing Lorraine on TV

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and I myself, I think I was between probably thirteen

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or sixteen somewhere in there when I first saw her

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and my mind said, oh my gosh, a real psychic,

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and my mom said, oh, I really don't like her

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and I look at her and I'm like, why she goes,

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I don't think she's a real psychic. She comes off

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as a phony to me. And my mom's saying that,

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and me having so much no trust in stock and

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what my mom says, I was like, Oh, that's really interesting.

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So when the movies came out, I remembered that, and

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that's what really sparked my curiosity and like need to

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know things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had kind of the opposite where I had

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that friend's mom who was like, oh no, this is

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like the real deal, and I was like, okay, okay cool.

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And then so I'm in Connecticut. I live about an

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hour from where the Warrens did. There are a lot

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of people here that have, you know, personal stories or

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you know, people that have worked for Nesper that have

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started talking recently, like Eric Vitale, for one.

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Speaker 1: I love Eric's got a lot to say, and I

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fully support him. He's been through a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the things that I've kind of

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had a little bit of difficulty with is separating what

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is Tony Spira BS and what is Warren BS. Yes,

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have you experienced the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've act I've absolutely noticed that being a thing

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because when I first started, it was Warren BS that

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I was after debunking and after correcting and after proving

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even and because I didn't want to. My goal wasn't

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just to disprove. My goal was to find the truth,

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regardless of what it was. And then that's when I

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ran into the Tonybs. Because Tony is woven into everything

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from the eighties, Like he had the seekers of the

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Supernatural show on the Public Broadcast Network and then moved

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it to YouTube of course, so you see it there

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and a lot of the times you see him now

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on the documentaries, so you'll know what you know or

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what you've heard about the Warrens and what they've done.

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And then you'll see on the documentaries Tony comes in

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and occasionally flips things around or changes the stories or

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doesn't tell them exactly right. I've noticed, So.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I understand and getting details wrong or misremembering things.

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But it's like a constant thing with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he really if to me my personal opinion,

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it really feels like he's trying to create his own limelight,

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like he's tired of the Warrens, like living in that

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one and he really wants his own that he could

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have his own platform.

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Speaker 2: For Yeah, definitely, And it seems like that's what he

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was trying to do with the uh what was it named,

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Joe King saga there.

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Speaker 1: The Linley Street story. Yeah, and I have a lot

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of opinions about that in general, like him trying to

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make it his story. It wasn't the Warren story. They

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screwed it up and got fired from it. They were

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sent away, so they didn't get to write a book.

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They didn't get to, you know, have any claim to

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any books that were written. They do get mentioned in

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the book, but that book wasn't written until years later

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when someone felt the need to tell the story, and

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they're included because they're part of the story. So I

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think that Tony going after this, this mission of making

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Linley Street his story so he could you know, redo

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it and redraw attention to it and be the star

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of it with this joking person. I think that was

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his main goal. I don't think he cared about much else.

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He just wanted to write the book and be in

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the limelight for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean to me, I think about Judy

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Spira a lot, because Tony comes off a lot like

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Ed to me, who I don't think was the best

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example of what you would want in a romantic partner

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to his daughter. And I worry very much that she's okay.

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I you know, you hear that she is, but she'd

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you know, she doesn't want to be involved, which I understand,

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but yeah, I just it doesn't seemed like she had

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a great childhood. And I think maybe you know, they

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say that you like you date people that are like

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your dad. I think it's more like you your dad

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sets the tone for what you expect men to treat

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women like. And I know I remember hearing you hear

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that like Cutesy's story about how Ed and Lorraine when

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they first get married used to drive up to a

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house and do a painting and then go knock on

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the door. But I've also heard that Ed used to

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because Lorraine was shy, he would lock her out of

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the car until she went up to the door.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That is just despicable to me. And you know, of course,

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the the Judith what it was her last name, Piney, Penny, Penny. Yeah,

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it's just so gross, all of it.

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Speaker 1: Completely. When I first heard that thing about him locking

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her out of the car and making her be the

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one to go knock on the door and convince the

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homeowners to let them in. He it really really rubbed

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me wrong. It really the way it sounded didn't sit

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right with me. But the way he says it sounds

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so like he's trying to be Oh, it was innocent,

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it was nothing. She didn't care, she was fine with it.

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And it's that's such a domineering male thing that you

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saw a lot in relationships like that where he didn't

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really see her discomfort or her you know, unwillingness to

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be that person. He just did what he wanted to.

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Speaker 2: Do, right. Yeah, And I think I don't know if

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I believe the whole story about the rain, like seeing

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the tree growing and all of that's but I do think,

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you know, she had a legitimate belief in the paranormal,

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and I wonder if she would have gone in a

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different direction if it weren't for Ed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder that too. Actually, and there's she has

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one or actually I heard another story recently. So there

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was two stories originally about how she discovered she had

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her gift. The one was the tree. She saw the

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tree mature in front of her eyes as they planted it.

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And then another one was she saw mother superiors lights

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were brighter than a different sister and she was reprimanded

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for that. And then I was recently having a conversation

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with someone and they said they thought they remembered her

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saying on Paranormal State that she passed out or something

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happened where she was out for a few minutes and

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then when she came to she was psychic. I had

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I'd not remembered that from the show, but I want

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to go and like rewatch it and see if I

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see it, because that's really interesting if that's another telling

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of that that story.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, their stories changed so much. Even like Ed

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when he talks about his father, it doesn't add up

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because you know, first he's a security guard on a census,

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then he's saying he's a cop, and then at some

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point he says he's a State Trooper.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And I thought that was so funny because

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I'm a big Super Troopers fan, and you know, if

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you watch that movie, those two are not the same.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, if your dad was a State Trooper, you

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would never ever in your life call him a cop,

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exactly right, And.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't confuse those two so easily if he were

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one or the other. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that is kind of a

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question for me is, so Ed Warren isn't his real name, right,

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It's Warren Mine.

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Speaker 1: I believe Warren Edward Mine. Yep. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Did he ever address why he changed his name at all?

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Speaker 1: I haven't found any public record of that. He's never

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mentioned it on any interviews I've seen. I've never heard

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Tony speak on it. I've never heard Judy speak on it.

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Like a lot of people I have talked to throughout

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my podcast journey didn't even know that was his real name.

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And I know it because I decided to do you

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know the history of the Warrens in my first episode,

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and of course it led me to excuse me the

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genealogy records and stuff like that, which showed like marriage

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certificates and everything, and on every one of them it

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was Warren instead of Ed, you know. And so I

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wonder if it was a stage name situation where they

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thought it would be protection from, you know, for their

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private lives. And then another part of me wonders if

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it's because he had the smallest little criminal history. And

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I don't know if it was just that or if

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that's the only one that's documented.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where my mind went with it too, Like generally,

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like there are legitimate reasons not to use your real name.

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But at the time he was doing it, it was

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pre internet, right, I don't think people were as conscious

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as much about like protecting their identity as they were now.

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So I had kind of, you know, speculated that he

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didn't want to be associated with something from his past

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at least I.

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Speaker 1: Agree, and also the obvious speculation of his desire for fame.

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He really did want to be in the public eye.

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He wanted people at his house all the time. I

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don't think there was much thought of protecting their private life.

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Speaker 2: I always thought it was weird that the museum was

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in their house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that until I started doing the research.

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I always thought it was a separate entity. I had

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no clue. And then someone said it was in their basement,

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and then someone said it was attached to the house,

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and I was like, oh, my goodness. One and then

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when I looked it up, of course it's like sort

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of a basement but also attached to the house because

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you can get in it from an outside entrance. Like

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there's a door directly to it. Yep.

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Speaker 2: I did actually have the opportunity to go to the museum.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's and it was.

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Speaker 2: It was right before Ed died. I believe it was

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very strange. I didn't realize it was in their house

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when we went. So you get there and you're like,

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it's is this am I in the right place? And

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then you go down and it's very cheesy, like Halloween

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decorations up and just kind of like random junk everywhere.

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It was like, it was so awkward.

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Speaker 1: I could see that. I've heard it's very cramped.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yep. Yeah, it's literally like being in someone's basement

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full of weird junk, like you know, your Halloween decorations

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that you didn't put away yet or something, is what

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it felt like.

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Speaker 1: I always found that a little odd too, that he

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made it so kitchy and so like a haunted house,

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as in like a haunted attraction versus real paranormal things.

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I always found that off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. And lots of crucifixes and things like that,

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of course, and that was always one of the things

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that bothered me about them. From the time we went

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to that lecture. It was very Catholic coded, which I'm

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not comfortable with personally, so I'm a bit sensitive to it.

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But I remember thinking, like, he's so sure about himself?

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Am I wrong?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Are my spiritual beliefs incorrect? Because this man is like

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saying things with such you know, authority that you just

255
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when someone speaks like that, you want to believe them,

256
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like they're so sure about themselves and that. Yeah. Absolutely,

257
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And looking back on it, that was absolutely, especially like

258
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when you're a kid too, your naive and gullible, but

259
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just you know, seeing this man that was an expert

260
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talk so confidently about things, and they do use it,

261
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like I feel, as a way to kind of manipulate

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people into joining their religion. But there's also stories I've

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heard from people in the area where they were turned

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away because they weren't Catholic.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, there's no point in us helping

267
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you because you're damned anyway.

268
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Speaker 1: It's kind of what it was, Yeah, And I wonder

269
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also if that has anything to do with their mission,

270
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because initially it was ghosts and then somewhere there was

271
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a switch and then everything was demonic. So I wonder

272
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if if you're not Catholic of course you're not going

273
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to accept a demon as the cause of your issues

274
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as easily as a Catholic would, So I wonder if

275
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that had anything to.

276
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Speaker 2: Do with it too. Yeah, scary stuff sells, like we

277
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see it today. Everything has to be sensationalized and scared,

278
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Like I do a lot of stuff with cryptids, and

279
00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:06,480
right now it's dog men because they're terrifying. That's a

280
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popular thing. It just feels like, you know, it's scary

281
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cells and people know that, so they're gonna, you know,

282
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go for the scary version of things, right, and also.

283
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Speaker 1: The familiar, Like you said, the dog man thing is

284
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a big thing that's in every culture, so that's easy

285
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to get people to latch onto as a possibility.

286
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.

287
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Speaker 1: And so EDS was demons first ghosts, and then you know,

288
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the Extorsist came out and everyone's afraid of demons now,

289
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,879
so that's the real easy thing to latch onto. Yeah.

290
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Speaker 2: One of the things I thought was interesting was they

291
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went around saying, you know, demons aren't inhuman, they've never

292
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been human. And then you get to beth Sheba Sherman, Yeah,

293
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who they basically said was like a ghost, a witch,

294
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and a demon and all of this stuff like that

295
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,360
went against everything else that they said.

296
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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah, that is a very good point. That

297
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,400
was very contradictory because edw was he was real adamant

298
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that she was an inhuman spirit. But she did They

299
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,200
did say she did live here, she did kill herself here,

300
00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:14,759
she did kill a baby here. Like Okay, well, you

301
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,640
could argue the fact that she was demonically possessed herself

302
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,359
in her life which led to her demon being the culprit,

303
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,559
but that's a little far fetched in my opinion. So

304
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,559
we're going to recycle demons, like she's possessed and she

305
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,920
kills herself and then one hundred whatever years later, she's

306
00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:34,799
back to possess the next person.

307
00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, she just needed a break for one hundred years

308
00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:43,920
or so, I guess. Yeah, yeah, So what is I know?

309
00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:49,480
Even though you know, we criticize or you know, look

310
00:17:49,599 --> 00:17:55,279
into kind of debunking things, we all have our favorite

311
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,359
cases for sentimental reasons anyway, which one is yours.

312
00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:03,279
Speaker 1: That's really tough for me since I really didn't know

313
00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:06,880
much about the individual cases until I started the research.

314
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,039
But so I'm gonna have to say the Seneteker one

315
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,599
because I loved that case before I knew it was

316
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,400
a Warren's case. And then on top of it being

317
00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:20,400
related to the Warrens, even though that movie The Hunting

318
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,559
in Connecticut didn't include the Warrens, That's why I didn't

319
00:18:23,559 --> 00:18:26,400
know until later, but the fact that they have this

320
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:31,559
relation to them. And then also, my all time favorite

321
00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:34,960
scary movie based on a true story is The Entity

322
00:18:35,559 --> 00:18:39,400
and the Seneneker Family. I believe took a lot of

323
00:18:39,559 --> 00:18:42,880
influence from that film, and they even mentioned it a

324
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,119
couple times in interviews, and I think ED also took

325
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,480
a lot of influence from that film. So I have

326
00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:54,119
to say that case just because it basically built itself

327
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,440
around one of my favorite movies and stories.

328
00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:05,039
Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely mine is Arnie Johnson, just because I like,

329
00:19:05,559 --> 00:19:07,640
I really would like to see I'd go into a

330
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,599
court and try to talk about demons. That would have

331
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,440
been great if the judge had allowed it.

332
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,519
Speaker 1: I agree. I am disappointed it wasn't allowed because the

333
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,519
amount of conversations we could have based around it, I

334
00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,039
know would be amazing. But I think about that a

335
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:27,880
lot because Ed's main argument to be able to do

336
00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:31,720
that was one, if you're going to swear to God,

337
00:19:31,759 --> 00:19:33,559
you're going to tell the truth, how come you can't

338
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,200
include the rest of that stuff that would be you know,

339
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,960
like demonic would be in that same genre. So that

340
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,640
was one of his arguments. But another one was he

341
00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:45,880
actually told reporters and then anyone that would listen that

342
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,319
in England they had gone over to England and they

343
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,720
said in England two cases had had the defense of

344
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:57,160
demonic possession and one in their cases. He said that,

345
00:19:57,319 --> 00:19:59,839
Ed said that. So then you have these news reports

346
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,640
happening in front of the courtroom as the trial is

347
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,119
about to begin, and the news reporter is saying they

348
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,079
had these trials in the UK and they won on

349
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,759
the demonic defense. That is not true. They did go

350
00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,359
try to go to trial with demonic defenses in two

351
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,359
different cases in Europe, but neither one of them made

352
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,039
it to trial as far as that being the defense.

353
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:25,400
So it was a lie. And Ed he knew no

354
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:26,799
one could look it up at the time, and so

355
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,119
he ran with it and got people to believe it.

356
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,799
And he really think, I really think he thought that

357
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,319
if he could get enough people in support of it

358
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,319
already being happening, you know, already have happened somewhere else

359
00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:40,960
they would let him do it in America and he

360
00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:44,319
could be this legend because he was the first to

361
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:47,519
you know, defend a case with demonic possession and be

362
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,839
the lead of it. Yeah.

363
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,839
Speaker 2: I think that's a lot of the story is them

364
00:20:54,799 --> 00:21:00,839
like not anticipating people's future access to information. Yeah, and

365
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,079
I think even today, like Tony still doesn't expect people

366
00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:10,240
to like fact check him. Yeah, Like I bet like

367
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,839
he's probably one of those guys that like can't confert

368
00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:17,240
a PDF file or anything like that. He's just not

369
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:24,960
technologically inclined probably and probably like and it makes no

370
00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:26,960
sense because he used to be a cop.

371
00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:35,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like to do a cop on his team currently, Yes, yep.

372
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:39,599
Speaker 2: So I mean, and I think it would be great

373
00:21:39,759 --> 00:21:46,400
for like someone with an investigator like trained background to

374
00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:51,240
do paranormal investigations and you know, take the approach from

375
00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:54,880
that lens. But he doesn't seem to do that, and

376
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:55,880
it's frustrating.

377
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's also very religious public religious base. He bases

378
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,079
all of the discussions around demons and we've got rid

379
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,319
Like he even did a thing where he said, like

380
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:10,640
I did a whole video where he was trying to

381
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,720
introduce his story. He was going to tell with this

382
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:16,559
joking person about Lindley Street where he talked about like

383
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,160
twenty five percent of the world is or under a

384
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:24,440
demonic attack or something.

385
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:26,599
Speaker 2: And like it was, so, where do you do that?

386
00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:31,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has all these statistics. Everything is demonic. He

387
00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:36,359
he loves to post on Facebook that anyone who's opposing him,

388
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,599
like me or Eric or anyone in the community who

389
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:46,440
is against the ridiculousness that is nesper he comes and says, Oh,

390
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,079
it's just because demons are taking over and demons will

391
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,640
turn on you and make your friends and family turn

392
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,839
on you. And he just says all this wild stuff

393
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,559
about why it's a demon's fault.

394
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's probably telling people like your possessed.

395
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. I had a comment I'm not sure

396
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,319
who was from, but someone said, I think you're the

397
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,079
demon in this and so yeah, that's me. I'm the demon.

398
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 2: Well, twenty five percent is one out of four people,

399
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,240
so like everyone just take a quick look around you

400
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,119
figure out which one has the demon.

401
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's how you get exercised, because anybody can

402
00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:22,079
do that for you.

403
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: Is that is has the narrative change to.

404
00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:30,279
Speaker 1: That It seems like it to me, they're constantly pushing

405
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,880
how you need to get the church's permission, and they

406
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,960
have to do it through the Catholic Church and the

407
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,960
and the Vatican has to approve it, like that's always

408
00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:43,079
been the baseline. But then if you read the books

409
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,200
and you read the stories and you watch the movies,

410
00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:49,680
everybody's performing exorcisms at any time. Arnie was exercised into

411
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,960
church by well, some people say it was exercised in

412
00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:54,720
the rocking chair, which is why it's on it. And

413
00:23:54,759 --> 00:23:57,279
then some people say, like the book, the book says

414
00:23:57,319 --> 00:24:00,119
he was taken to a church and the rights of

415
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,119
something we're performed there. And they always specify that it's

416
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,599
not a full blown exorcism, it's the rights of one

417
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,200
thing or another, and then but they'll still throw in

418
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:13,079
the word exorcism. So it's actually really confusing for me.

419
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,559
And I really really want to do an episode where

420
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,920
I break that down because all the different things that

421
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,559
are said, I want to know what correlates to what,

422
00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:27,440
and like whose permission comes from where. It's so confusing

423
00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:29,759
and they just if to me, it feels like they

424
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,319
just do whatever they feel like doing.

425
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in the Conjuring House, they said you're not Catholic,

426
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,799
so we can't do an exorcism, so let's do a seance.

427
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,319
Like you already have this demon or whatever, so you're

428
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,240
going to do a seance instead of an exorcism, Like,

429
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,079
what is the point of that? Wou didn't they think

430
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,440
that would be opening more things up? And from what

431
00:24:56,599 --> 00:24:59,559
they've said in the past, because you know, if you

432
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,079
touch a board, are going to get a demon. Yeah,

433
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,279
it's kind of the mentality. So I just I didn't understand, like,

434
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,359
we can't do an exorcism, so we're going to do

435
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,440
a seance. That never made sense to me.

436
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and if you so, there was a

437
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,680
time where somebody addressed that and the answer was I

438
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,640
can't remember who said it or where it was, but

439
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:24,440
the answer was, we have to do the seance to

440
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,920
call in the spirit or whatever to bring them forward

441
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,720
to banish them. So the whole goal was to banish her,

442
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,759
and if they couldn't do it through an exorcism, ed was,

443
00:25:38,319 --> 00:25:40,920
I guess one hundred percent sure he had the ability

444
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,359
to or Lorraine even I think was part of the

445
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,000
plan was to psychically ban her once she was present

446
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,960
or something like that. But I know Andrea said. Andrew

447
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:55,480
Parrin said that she didn't understand why they came in

448
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,359
wanting to banish everything. That didn't make sense to her.

449
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,319
They just automatically want to ban it whatever's happening without

450
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,720
looking into what it actually is.

451
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's not. It's not gonna sell books if

452
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,519
there's a friendly ghost, right, so you have to get

453
00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:14,880
rid of it.

454
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: Yep.

455
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: And interesting, like you might think this is. So, there

456
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,200
is an Enfield in Connecticut and there is a house

457
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,839
there they call the Enfield Demon House, and my friend's

458
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:36,079
team investigated there. Somebody actually got I guess you would

459
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,400
call it like psychically strangled by this demon there supposedly,

460
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,039
And they went into the house and said, you know,

461
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,920
do you want us to do like a cleansing get

462
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,640
rid of it? And they're like, no, no, we want

463
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,720
to go on TV. Don't get rid of it.

464
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean. So that's the thing about these

465
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:02,519
places that claim to be haunted. It's so interesting to

466
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,200
me how they make money this way, How the draw

467
00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:10,839
you're scared of what's in your house, but you want

468
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,039
people to come and investigate it. Like it's such a

469
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,720
weird dynamic because the way we were like brought up

470
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:21,400
around this situation. If there's something in your house, you

471
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,039
want it to be gone, you don't want it anymore.

472
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:25,319
You're calling in the investigators to help get rid of it.

473
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:29,200
Now we're calling in the investigators to just prove it's

474
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:31,640
there and make money off of it. So you have

475
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,799
all these locations. I don't know the history of the

476
00:27:35,519 --> 00:27:40,359
Infield demon House per specifically, but I know that other locations.

477
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,799
I know there's some places in California. I know there

478
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,400
are some other places in New York. And there's just

479
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,319
these attractions and they don't have the history they claim

480
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,359
to have. It's this big sham on like the Bell

481
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,240
Witch is one that has a lot of controversy around it.

482
00:27:57,319 --> 00:28:02,480
It's near me and there's no proof they say there is,

483
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,799
but if you actually look into it, it's wrong, or

484
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,240
it's inaccurate, or it's not even there. And I read

485
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:11,440
once that the whole reason it was started was for tourism,

486
00:28:12,599 --> 00:28:16,680
So it all comes back to making money on it. Yeah.

487
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,079
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know people will make money off of

488
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,160
very strange things, like you know, houses where people were

489
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,119
murdered in I live. My dad is from Fall River

490
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,920
where the Lizzie Borden House is okay, and I've stayed there.

491
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,799
You know, I gave them my money too, because you know,

492
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:38,480
I'm same.

493
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: To be honest.

494
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know if this is right or not,

495
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,680
but I feel like the more time has elapsed between

496
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,599
a horrible event and now like the last icky it

497
00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:52,960
is to do that kind of thing, Like I'm not

498
00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:57,519
gonna rent an Airbnb that someone was murdered in last year.

499
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:00,119
That's gross to me. I don't know if that's the

500
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,279
right way of thinking about it or not, but no,

501
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:03,559
I can definitely.

502
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,759
Speaker 1: Agree with that. It feels less tangible being so far

503
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:09,400
in the past.

504
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I actually thought it was weird that that

505
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,839
place is supposed to be so haunted and the Warrens

506
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,079
never touched that and it's pretty close.

507
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: And it probably had something to do with the fact

508
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,559
that they ran into a lot of no's, Like a

509
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,480
lot of people were like, no, we don't want to

510
00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:32,000
have anything to do with that kind of thing you're after,

511
00:29:32,119 --> 00:29:35,160
because apparently Ed would lead with a lot of the time,

512
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,880
we can make you a lot of money. There is

513
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,440
a whole rumor going around what was a rumor going

514
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,799
around in the seventies about the Linley House about how

515
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:47,480
the family intended to make a million dollars. And I

516
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:51,119
personally feel like that came from Ed's influence, because he

517
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:54,480
did approach people with the whole I can make you money,

518
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:56,200
let me write a book, let me make a movie

519
00:29:56,319 --> 00:29:59,279
kind of situation. I mean, you have guyline Playfair who

520
00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:01,319
said he came to directly to him over the Infield

521
00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,440
House in England saying I can make us a lot

522
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,079
of money if you join me, and he's like, no,

523
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,240
I don't want any part of that.

524
00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:10,759
Speaker 2: In Lindley Street, didn't they get fired from calling the press?

525
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,839
Speaker 1: Yes, So they were invited by the neighbor who happened

526
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:18,559
to be Mary Pascarella, and she had was part of

527
00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:21,359
the psychic stuff and she had just gone to a lecture,

528
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,839
so she knew who the Warrens were because she just

529
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,240
attended a lecture. So she was like, oh, these are

530
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:29,839
the people for this problem, goes and gets them, brings them.

531
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:34,200
All they care about is calling everybody. They charged up

532
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:37,680
long distance calls to the press on the Good's phone.

533
00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:41,160
And there's a lawyer later that served the Warrens to

534
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:43,880
make them pay for those long distance calls. And they

535
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,440
were sent away because they brought a circus. It was

536
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:51,359
a sideshow. There were people selling like stuff at the

537
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,200
location while people were hanging out hoping to see a demon.

538
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think if the family had been the

539
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,240
ones that were in it for the money, they would

540
00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:05,359
not have been so quick to put a stop to that.

541
00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:08,759
Speaker 1: I agree completely. I think that's a very valid and

542
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,319
important point that people don't really talk about.

543
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: And they also had I can't think of his name,

544
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,000
but there was a priest that said, like, can you

545
00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:20,759
please stop saying my name and talking about me and

546
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,720
leave me out of this. I don't want anything to

547
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:24,039
do with you. Stop calling me.

548
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,119
Speaker 1: Oh wow. I hadn't heard that or found that yet,

549
00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:29,400
but that's really interesting. All I know of is they

550
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,880
worked with Father Enoch, and Father Enoch actually did like

551
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,559
his own stuff later where he continued to say that, yes,

552
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000
this aunting really did happen. I was there, so I

553
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:43,279
mean he didn't. He was new to working with the Warrens.

554
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,480
They had just met him when they were called to

555
00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:49,559
this case, and they took him with so I don't

556
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:52,880
think he was so influenced by ed as some of

557
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:53,960
the other people might have been.

558
00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:59,519
Speaker 2: Have you looked into father Enoch at all. His name

559
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,960
is kind of a red flag for me, but I

560
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,200
haven't kind of deep dived him at all.

561
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,319
Speaker 1: I agree completely insane. I haven't had a chance to

562
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,039
look into him. I did watch one video he made

563
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:15,920
very recently, not very very recently, but within like the

564
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,359
early two thousands, and he was still in the mindset

565
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,839
that there was a haunting there. So I would like

566
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,759
to look into him because he is mentioned a lot

567
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:27,480
in the book and the fact that he was new

568
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:31,000
to the Warrens has me wondering where his ideas and

569
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:34,119
stuff really like, what he really his real opinions on

570
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,240
it and stuff were, So I do want to look

571
00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:37,839
into him. Yeah.

572
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: I think it was Eric Vitali or someone in his

573
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,880
Facebook group that had posted something. I think it was

574
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,039
a priest that had worked with Nesper and not ed

575
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,559
and Lorraine directly. Possibly, But he has a website now

576
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:56,079
that has a test you can take to see if

577
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,119
you have demons.

578
00:32:57,559 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

579
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:04,359
Speaker 2: Some of the questions like we would both definitely have

580
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:06,519
demons for sure. I think that's kind of like the

581
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,039
point of it is, everyone has a demon. But the

582
00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:12,759
questions are like, are you ever sad? Are you ever

583
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,799
angry like who isn't are you human? Right? And then

584
00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:23,039
it got like homophobic for a while. So I did

585
00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:26,079
this sas just for fun, and I'm pretty like if

586
00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:28,400
there were so many questions, but I got annoyed like

587
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,400
part way through. But I'm like almost positive it would

588
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,240
try to sell you an exorcism at the end, that's

589
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:35,079
where it was heaving.

590
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: That would not surprise me one bit.

591
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. And I think that Ed and the Rain

592
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:50,880
really influenced the kind of mentality. You know, they were

593
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,440
around during like you know, peak Satanic panic time. Yeah,

594
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,960
and I'm not saying that they caused Satanic panic or anything.

595
00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: But they definitely took advantage.

596
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,039
Speaker 2: They took advantage. They definitely influenced a lot of people,

597
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:07,839
even me as a kid. You know, I'm sitting there

598
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,079
like questioning my belief system because this man sounds so

599
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,000
sure of himself.

600
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally get that. And as a child, you're

601
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,800
you expect the adults in your life to be telling

602
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,639
the truth. You don't know at a young age that

603
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,119
people are capable of those kind of lies, and you

604
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,800
never go into thinking that. You never have the little

605
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,039
voice saying, oh wait, you should maybe check this so

606
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,840
that it bothers me that Ed spoke to kids too,

607
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,199
because he did a lecture in the nineties at a

608
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,760
summer camp with kids ranging from thirteen to fifteen. I

609
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,800
was told I interviewed a guy that was present for it.

610
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,880
He was fourteen or fifteen, he said, and he said

611
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,840
that one of Ed's points that he made. So he

612
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,960
told me that they brought in Ed and Lorraine as

613
00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:02,000
like one the guests because the summer camp was full

614
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:03,840
of all these things that they got to do and learn,

615
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,280
and they thought, I guess the wares would be a

616
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,239
fun addition. So they bring in Ed and Lorrain and

617
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,679
they proceed to talk about ghosts and hauntings and demons.

618
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,639
And then apparently Ed decides it's a good idea to

619
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,159
tell all these children that if they don't listen to

620
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,599
their parents say their prayers, they will be victims of

621
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,280
incuby and sucuby. And then he explained what incuby and

622
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,280
suckuby are to these children. And the man I interviewed said,

623
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,480
you know, I didn't think about it until I was older,

624
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,800
but how many of those kids in that audience were

625
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,079
suffering actual sexual abuse at home? Like how many of

626
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,480
these kids are now so in fear for their lives

627
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:51,039
that they don't think they're safe anywhere. That it just

628
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:53,559
blew my mind that he felt like it was okay

629
00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,679
to say those things to these children. And apparently it

630
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,239
got cut off like immediately after this was out, and

631
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,480
the counselors and guides were like, uh, we didn't know

632
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:04,719
this was going to happen. We're sorry, that's the end

633
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,280
of it. But he said, yeah, it was, he said,

634
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,079
thinking back on it, it was a really uncomfortable moment.

635
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: So my mom would have been so mad if I

636
00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:15,639
came home from camp and told her about.

637
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: That, right, I said the same thing. I was like,

638
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,960
did you go home and tell your mom? Did your

639
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,239
mom like lose her mind? And he was like, well,

640
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,000
I was a fifteen year old boy. I don't know

641
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:24,760
if I really cared to tell her. I don't remember

642
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,039
if I told her. I was like, I'd have gone

643
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:28,920
home immediately and told my mom what I just learned,

644
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,360
because I would have been so scared. I'd be like, Mom,

645
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,039
this was just told to me. Is this true? Do

646
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:35,119
I have to worry about this? And then my mom

647
00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:36,159
would have lost her mind.

648
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I would if my son's about turn sixteen,

649
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,199
if he came home and told me that he would

650
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,000
like he knows enough from me being his mom that

651
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:49,800
it wouldn't have affected him, but he would have been like,

652
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:52,760
you'll never guess what happened exactly.

653
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:53,679
Speaker 1: Yep.

654
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: But if you if you're raised in a more I'm

655
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:00,920
going to say Catholic, but you know other religions too,

656
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,480
and then you hear something like that, it might have

657
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:07,360
more of an impact on you too.

658
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree completely. And it's such a that is

659
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,639
such a scary thing in the physical world. Imagine knowing

660
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,599
you can't do anything about it. Like the fear of

661
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:21,639
it in the physical world is so real every day

662
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:27,519
for especially for women that you carry weapons, you're prepared

663
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,119
to defend yourself. But if it's a spirit that you

664
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,320
can't physically see or touch, it can only touch you,

665
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,320
that's utterly terrifying. It's it's no wrong for him to

666
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:41,840
plant in the minds of children.

667
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was very victim blamey, which is ironic because

668
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,199
you know, allegedly, allegedly he was a predator himself.

669
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:54,159
Speaker 1: Yep.

670
00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:59,639
Speaker 2: So very interesting that he would victim blame when.

671
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree completely and I think that that

672
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:08,159
comes up more than people realize the the personality traits

673
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:11,719
and the behavior traits of people who are predators. It

674
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,480
shows in their day to day and if you don't

675
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,920
know what to look for, you'd never notice. Yeah.

676
00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially you know you're a fifteen year old girl,

677
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,360
you know. I you know, I think even you know,

678
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:29,920
into my early twenties, I wouldn't have been able to

679
00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:32,719
pick out certain behavior that I would be able to now.

680
00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: Same. Yeah, I think back all the time, like people say,

681
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,280
would you ever go back to being a kid or

682
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,679
would you ever go back to high school? And absolutely

683
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,480
not unless I could take the knowledge I have now.

684
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,719
I would never put myself through that willingly again unless

685
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,639
I knew what to be prepared for. Yeah.

686
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

687
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:50,119
Speaker 1: Yeah.

688
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:53,159
Speaker 2: You think back on things that happened at certain points

689
00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:55,920
in your life, Like I looked like I was twelve

690
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,079
until I was about thirty, and I'll see an old

691
00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:01,719
picture of myself and I'll be like, oh my god,

692
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,840
and I will judge every man whoever dated me until

693
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,280
I was about thirty, when it started to look like

694
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,719
grown up finally, and it like you just get those

695
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:19,880
like cringe moments looking back and Judith I'll call her

696
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,599
to a differentiate her from Judy Spira. I mean, it

697
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:31,840
was a different time then, I get that, but it

698
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,960
was also wasn't it like forty years or something like.

699
00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: That that she That's what they claim, they claim, So

700
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:43,840
depending on the source you access for the information, she

701
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,800
was either fifteen when she moved in or eighteen when

702
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:53,199
she moved in and the Warrens and I guess, I

703
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,599
guess Judy and Tony said this in retort to the

704
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,159
article that came out after the movie, said that they

705
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,639
took her in because she had nowhere else to go,

706
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,960
so they made it sound like they were saving her basically.

707
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:15,639
But if you look at Judith's behavior now in today's time,

708
00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:19,880
the woman is absolutely obsessed with it. She is madly

709
00:40:20,199 --> 00:40:23,920
in love with him, and to me, that translates to

710
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,239
she was also madly in love with him when she

711
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,679
met him, and that it wasn't a situation of her

712
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,840
needing help, It was a situation of her wanting to

713
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,960
be there, and she would let anything happen to make

714
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:41,360
that happen, if that makes sense. And I'm not victim blaming,

715
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,679
so please no one please think that I'm just based

716
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,360
on what I know about Judith today. That's how I feel,

717
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,920
and I don't like it. I don't like to think

718
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:52,360
of her being okay with that happening to her. But

719
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:57,119
that's how it seems. I don't think she understands or

720
00:40:57,159 --> 00:40:59,840
even feels like she is a victim in any way.

721
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the part of that that doesn't add up

722
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,280
to me is how are you gonna, you know, rescue

723
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:11,679
this child when your own child is being raised by

724
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:12,239
your parents?

725
00:41:12,639 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: Yes, who is never home with you? Who says I didn't?

726
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,519
I wasn't raised by my parents. I was raised by

727
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,920
my grandparents. That's a quote from Judy, And yeah, you're right.

728
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:26,199
And for they, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but

729
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,960
I think Judith and Judy are close to the same age,

730
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,559
so for them to bring Judith in it was very odd.

731
00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:38,079
And then also I've heard people from Connecticut who were

732
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:43,000
around in the time where Judith was living there she

733
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,960
was being utilized as like a secretary, and people would

734
00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:50,119
say that they were told she was a niece or

735
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,519
a cousin, and then also that she was helping out

736
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:55,599
with the Wares while they were away on trips. She'd

737
00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:58,920
answer the phones, she'd take messages, she'd relay information that

738
00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:02,079
kind of thing. People never saw that for what it

739
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,440
was because they were told so many different things.

740
00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely the stories. I mean, you must have to

741
00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:14,840
keep like notebooks and spreadsheets to keep like all of

742
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,079
these stories straight that are constantly changing.

743
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I have so many notes, and I get so

744
00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:23,920
lost in what I wrote where because like my memory

745
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,159
is terrible. So if I have to remember who said

746
00:42:26,199 --> 00:42:27,920
what off the top of my head, that's it's so

747
00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:32,000
hard because everybody said something different at the same time.

748
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: So yep. So one of the most kind of egregious stories,

749
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:48,119
in my opinion is Annabelle. There is the most There's

750
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,800
just no nothing about that that you can substantiate at all, really.

751
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:59,039
And also there's no rumors going around that Tony is

752
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,800
selling the Anna the Bell doll and then buying a

753
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,599
new one and then selling that one.

754
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: I have heard that rumor. I've heard it. It's been

755
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,920
sold at least twice.

756
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the whole taking it on a plane

757
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:20,079
and Zach Baggan's got involved, and Zach yes, yep, and

758
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,360
he is I'm not gonna say he's fine, but he's

759
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,159
as fine as he ever was.

760
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:26,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

761
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: Where in the timeline was that one of their earlier

762
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,360
cases Annabelle.

763
00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:41,559
Speaker 1: So yeah, they so some say it was their first case,

764
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,079
stuff like that. It is in the book The Demonologist,

765
00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:47,400
and it is chapter three is where they start to

766
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,840
talk about it. In that book, they say they were

767
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,960
called in nineteen seventy Ed has said nineteen seventy one,

768
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,280
so I would assume. I've also seen nineteen sixty eight,

769
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:01,320
so I would assume within those three or four years

770
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:06,000
that's when that happened. But I don't believe it happened

771
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,760
as they say. I do believe that there were people

772
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:15,360
involved that initially this story was built around. I can't

773
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,079
say whether or not they were telling the truth, but

774
00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:23,119
I did confirm they existed, So there is that. But

775
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,679
I just don't think because of like things like the

776
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,760
Twilight Zone episode and just the different things we've been

777
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,440
able to debunk, like you can't touch her and you'll survive,

778
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:37,039
the motorcycle accident didn't happen, that kind of thing. But

779
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,400
knowing that there were people involved initially that can confirm

780
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:42,800
is really interesting.

781
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. And another thing that bothers me is the keeper

782
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,400
in a glass case and they wear those dumb oven

783
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,480
myths and they have to mover. Yeah, there is a

784
00:44:56,599 --> 00:45:00,880
lot of you know, historical lore that glass is a

785
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,199
barrier for spirits. But the case isn't all glass, just

786
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:12,039
the front is, right, So if I had an evil

787
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:15,599
possessed doll, I would want glass on all sides of

788
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,360
the case, you know, just going off of like the

789
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:20,719
historical lore.

790
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: No, that would make more sense if you were really

791
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:30,519
worried about it. So called power. Yeah, and they say

792
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:35,000
it's blessed or whatever, but I mean, okay.

793
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,119
Speaker 2: Right, just get rid of the demon if anything.

794
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what's really interesting is that if Annabel is

795
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:54,639
just a vessel, what stopped whatever stopped her from leaving

796
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,119
that vessel when not in the case, right, because if

797
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:01,679
you go by what they say, the case would keep

798
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,719
the demon in the doll. So all the time she's

799
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,000
been moved, even though she's being handled with care, she

800
00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:13,480
is still exposed to the world as far as she's open.

801
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:17,000
And I don't understand how the vessel is trapping her.

802
00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:19,280
I don't see the logic there.

803
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: And they must have blessed the oven mits they hold

804
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:25,719
her with too, Oh yeah.

805
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: They did. And they put religious what are they called

806
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,079
little charms, little religious charms are sewn into them.

807
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a fun, fun fantasy world to live in,

808
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,880
I guess, but I do think like there are if

809
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,480
you really believe in some things. I do think it

810
00:46:49,519 --> 00:46:52,239
puts a bit of power in it. I just don't

811
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,000
think that Tony or anyone actually believe in them and

812
00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:56,840
it's all for show.

813
00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: I agree completely. And I've heard people say, like, of course,

814
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:03,719
a lot of my a lot of that is hearsay,

815
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,159
a lot of it is rumor, a lot of it

816
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,719
is just he said, she said, But enough people say

817
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,079
it it leads you to think it might be true.

818
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,679
And I've heard enough people say that Tony's not It's

819
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,639
just a show to him. He's just trying to make

820
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:19,480
money off it. That's the only goal, The only goal

821
00:47:19,559 --> 00:47:22,079
at all is to make money and make sure the

822
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:24,159
story stays alive so it can make money.

823
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't. I mean, you look at a lot

824
00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:32,199
of other people that have had a lot of experiences

825
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,079
in the paranormal, and you know, there are a lot

826
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:41,920
of people's views of things tend to evolve and progress

827
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:47,320
and change over time. As they experience more and people

828
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:54,519
have they become very i'll say softened and sensitive. You

829
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:58,039
know when they've had these experiences. He does not come

830
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:03,079
across the way I'm used to somebody that's had that

831
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,159
many paranormal experiences come across. He comes off like a cop.

832
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,639
Speaker 1: You're right, you're right. Yeah. And to further that, it

833
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,440
just popped into my head as you were saying that.

834
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,440
I don't think Tony himself has ever said he has

835
00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:24,400
had an experience on any investigation, like an investigator would

836
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,239
have had an experience at some point. And he claims

837
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,000
to be an investigator and to be helping people. And

838
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:34,559
I know that Dan is his lead investigator now and

839
00:48:34,679 --> 00:48:38,079
probably takes care of everything because Tony is older and

840
00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:41,800
he probably wouldn't go on as many investigations as he aged,

841
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,920
but he would still have some stories under his belt.

842
00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:50,800
And it doesn't seem like he cares to reiterate any

843
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,880
experiences of anybody else, Like if you help someone, why

844
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:55,960
don't you have a story about it?

845
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: Right exactly? And you know exactly remember the story about

846
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,840
how he meant Judy. But I do remember he had

847
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,079
gone to war in lectures and was like knew about

848
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,920
them and they were very well known and famous at

849
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,079
the time. Yeah, it seems a little bit calculated.

850
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: To me, I agree with that, and I've had other

851
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,199
people point that out to me, because Tony's story is

852
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,480
he was parked in his patrol car one day and

853
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:29,280
he saw her go into a store or leave a store,

854
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,360
and at some point decided to engage in conversation with her.

855
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,119
And I guess at first she didn't want any part

856
00:49:36,159 --> 00:49:39,280
of him, and he just kept being persistent in a

857
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,840
I don't know, a flattering way. I'm not really sure

858
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,519
he tells the story, but like you said, it seems calculated.

859
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,880
Like if he was going to lectures and he was

860
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,639
aware of what they were doing, I feel like you

861
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:57,519
would know they have a daughter she was grown. Yeah,

862
00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:02,079
it feels like he maybe organize that so it would

863
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:04,159
happen the way it did. I can definitely see that,

864
00:50:04,199 --> 00:50:05,880
and people have pointed it out to me before, So

865
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,880
it's not just you and me agreeing on that idea.

866
00:50:09,119 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 2: So, yeah, he just gives creeper vibes, is the best

867
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:18,239
way I can put it.

868
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to agree, And because of that, I

869
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,800
have lots of people that come to me and they're like,

870
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,599
did you know this about Tony? Did you know this?

871
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:30,800
And there's a lot of public information about Tony from

872
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,360
when he was a cop. That is, it makes you

873
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:39,159
question Tony as a person, as to question his morals.

874
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:44,760
The articles are interesting. If you look up Anthony Spira

875
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,360
or Antonio I'm sorry Antonio Spira in the newspaper on

876
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,559
any archive, you'll find all about his time as a

877
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:53,800
cop and what happened.

878
00:50:53,960 --> 00:51:03,599
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and and then Joe King came up. Yeah,

879
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:14,119
I I wasn't sadly, I wasn't really surprised, disappointed, not surprised,

880
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:20,039
But what kind of emotions were running through your head

881
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,880
when you were stumbling across this information about Joe King.

882
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:25,400
This is so.

883
00:51:25,519 --> 00:51:29,519
Speaker 1: Interesting to me how it all happened because I wasn't

884
00:51:29,559 --> 00:51:32,960
really following their podcast. I know it was started in

885
00:51:33,119 --> 00:51:35,280
sort of a retaliation everything that was going on on

886
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,239
social media, me partly my show, the things people were

887
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,639
slinging back and forth with memes and such. They got

888
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,440
really upset and decided the podcast would be a good idea.

889
00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:48,119
I wasn't paying attention. I had a lot going on

890
00:51:48,199 --> 00:51:50,960
at the time date my day job was insanely busy,

891
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,039
and they had done I think two episodes and then

892
00:51:55,119 --> 00:51:58,440
announced they were going to have a special guest done,

893
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,800
and they were going to talk about the famous Street case.

894
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,199
And one of the people who helps me do research

895
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,199
knows a lot about that case and was instantly like,

896
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,159
read flag about it, because who on earth could they

897
00:52:10,199 --> 00:52:13,119
be bringing up now when pretty much everyone has passed away.

898
00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:15,679
So she sends me the link. She's like, you gotta

899
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,199
watch this. I watched the little like advertisement for the

900
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,760
episode and he talks about how they're going to have

901
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,719
their special guests, and so I made sure I watched it.

902
00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:27,079
The live came on, I pulled it up, and I'm

903
00:52:27,119 --> 00:52:30,559
watching this joking person tell his story and he's saying

904
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,079
that he was there, he was seven years old, and

905
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,519
he alongside Marcilla, the little girl who actually experienced the hunting,

906
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:43,119
experienced it with her. And I knew the story already.

907
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:45,519
I've read the book. I've read the book several times

908
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:49,079
because when I'm writing an episode on a story, I

909
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:52,320
read the book like a million times just to make

910
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,000
sure I get everything straight, everything comes out right, because

911
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:56,559
I get confused to easy and that kind of thing.

912
00:52:57,079 --> 00:52:59,559
So I know I pretty much know this story by heart,

913
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:03,119
and everything he's saying, like every time he brings up Marcia,

914
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,639
it feels like my gut is just like freaking out,

915
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,360
and I'm like, why is he talking about her like this?

916
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,840
Why is he throwing her under the bus for everything?

917
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,400
She was abusive, She tormented him, She made his life hard.

918
00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:17,440
He was just a poor kid from a bad home

919
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,599
and Laura was just trying to take care of him,

920
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,239
and anytime the Goods would give him attention, she would

921
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,960
punish him for it. And he's just saying so much

922
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:28,679
negative about Marcia. It was driving me crazy, and that's

923
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,119
what got me so fired up. I didn't know anything

924
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:33,559
about this man. I didn't know anything. I didn't even

925
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:36,400
have his real name because obviously Tony changed his name,

926
00:53:36,519 --> 00:53:39,639
he says at the beginning of the episode. Some names

927
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,920
may be changed for the privacy and protection of people involved,

928
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,639
and it struck me because the only name that was

929
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,920
changed was Joe's. They used everyone else's real name. So

930
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,960
about halfway through, I was committed to finding this man

931
00:53:55,039 --> 00:53:57,159
and figuring out who he was so I could prove

932
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,159
he was lying. That was my main goal because I

933
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:00,960
knew he was lying. I knew he was flat out

934
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,119
telling the biggest lie, and so I didn't have his name.

935
00:54:06,159 --> 00:54:08,360
All I had was his face, and I used his

936
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:13,880
face in several search engines, and each one of them immediately,

937
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:19,199
like within seconds, showed me his criminal record. And that

938
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,719
was not a thought for me. I did not expect to.

939
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,760
I mean, I wasn't surprised, to be honest, that that

940
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,599
was what popped up first, but it wasn't my first thought.

941
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:31,760
And then, of course, when I saw what the criminal

942
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,000
record was for. We all have a past, we all

943
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:37,519
do stupid things in our youth, we all have things

944
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:40,840
that were not proud of, but this particular record was

945
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:46,920
something no one should ever defend, be proud of anything

946
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:50,440
like that. He is a child sex offender and he

947
00:54:50,559 --> 00:54:53,880
committed sexual assault and battery on a child under fourteen.

948
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,719
And when I saw that, I just so many things,

949
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,280
like so many emotions. First of all, Tony, did you know,

950
00:55:01,679 --> 00:55:03,400
if you didn't know, what were you thinking, If you

951
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,000
didn't know what were you thinking? Like if you just

952
00:55:06,119 --> 00:55:09,840
looked into his story, if you just verified, simply verified

953
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,079
that this man did live in Connecticut in nineteen seventy four,

954
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:17,559
the records would have been right there just like as

955
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:20,360
instantly as I got them with just his face. So

956
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,280
it bothers me that Tony either didn't do any any

957
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:30,079
research whatsoever none, or he knew and he didn't care

958
00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:31,400
and thought he could just get away with it.

959
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think, like I said before, I don't

960
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:43,360
think Tony realizes that people are going to google things now. Yes,

961
00:55:44,159 --> 00:55:49,800
not everyone as naive as they used to be. And

962
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,599
there are ways to get this information now that there

963
00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:54,360
didn't used to be.

964
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,599
Speaker 1: Yes. And when it comes to criminal records like that,

965
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,920
those are very republic for reason, like they're very accessible,

966
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,559
they're very easy to find. They'll spell it out for

967
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,840
you in detail everything you need to know because you

968
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,719
need to know about these people so you can keep

969
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,079
your kids safe. That is the whole point of it.

970
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,599
So to overlook it or to not ever even see

971
00:56:18,639 --> 00:56:21,760
it bothers me so much because they were only interested

972
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,559
in making money, that was the bottom line.

973
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 2: Yep. And he had a failure to register too, right.

974
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And somebody brought up to me that, So a

975
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,039
failure to register looks bad for many many reasons, Like

976
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,480
you could be hiding, you could have been after a

977
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:39,280
minded about it, which you shouldn't be, because it's a

978
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,360
very serious thing, like especially if you're trying to exonerate

979
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,639
yourself which is what I'm being told I have been

980
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,400
told by Joe himself and someone else that is in

981
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,719
supportive Joe that has been trolling my YouTube channel, telling

982
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,599
me that Joe is in the process of exonerating himself.

983
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,199
I'm gonna be sorry for all the lies that I've

984
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,760
told and and all of that. So if that was

985
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,159
the true, if it were true, just for a second,

986
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,000
let's pretend the Joe is trying to exonerate himself. Why

987
00:57:09,039 --> 00:57:12,239
would you failure to register in your new state? That

988
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,360
looks so bad for you, Like if your goal is

989
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,400
to get this fixed and removed from your history because

990
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,159
it didn't happen or for whatever, that is really bad,

991
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,840
that's such a red flag to me to anyone else,

992
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,440
Like failure to register means you don't want people to

993
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:30,360
know about you and what you did. So yes, I

994
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,719
can see how you don't want people to know because

995
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:34,960
you're trying to fix it. But if you're really trying

996
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,400
to fix it by the law, by the book, you

997
00:57:37,519 --> 00:57:40,360
gotta do what you're supposed to do law wise. So

998
00:57:41,079 --> 00:57:43,199
that I don't believe that for a second that he's

999
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,519
in the process of getting it removed. I believe it happened.

1000
00:57:47,599 --> 00:57:52,800
I believe he also has umptying domestic violence charges, so

1001
00:57:53,239 --> 00:57:56,000
he's clearly a violent person. And he has an assault

1002
00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:57,960
on a cop too, on a police officer.

1003
00:57:58,519 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, And the thing that bothered me the most,

1004
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,119
I mean, it's just bad enough that those people exist,

1005
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:12,320
but then you have these, you know, quote unquote normal

1006
00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:19,440
people that are nesper fanatics that are defending him. And

1007
00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:25,159
there's no like celebrity or anyone that I care enough

1008
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:31,480
about where if they were accused of that or associated

1009
00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:34,039
with that, that I wouldn't just say, I don't know

1010
00:58:34,119 --> 00:58:38,840
if it's true or not, but I'm done. It was

1011
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:49,239
so bizarre to see so many people defending a child's abuser.

1012
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: You know, people said, where's your proof? Immediately after I

1013
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,039
showed the proof, and I'm like, why are why is

1014
00:58:57,119 --> 00:59:00,800
this you know, something you would defend? I don't understand,

1015
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,840
Like are you not processing what's like? I feel like

1016
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,840
you're not grasping it, like you didn't you heard it,

1017
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,039
but you didn't hear it. So I feel like it's

1018
00:59:10,119 --> 00:59:12,519
kind of I hate to say this, but it's kind

1019
00:59:12,559 --> 00:59:16,000
of like a cult situation where the people are so

1020
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:20,039
blindly following no matter what you tell them no matter

1021
00:59:20,119 --> 00:59:22,320
what you say, it's not going to get through to

1022
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,519
them because they believe so strongly in their following. And

1023
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,480
Tony has that kind of following. I think it's got

1024
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,199
a few thousand on their YouTube channel, and they're all

1025
00:59:33,519 --> 00:59:37,480
like old school followers. They've been around for a very

1026
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:40,800
long time. They've been in support of Tony and Nesper

1027
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,679
and the Warrens for a very long time. One of

1028
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:46,400
the trolls that attacked me and said, where's your proof,

1029
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,360
she's part of the Warrens Foundation in the Southern States.

1030
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:55,159
I believe and these people, I get that they support

1031
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,719
the Warrens and that it's so ingrained in them to

1032
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:03,119
like that these are their people. But common sense and

1033
01:00:03,239 --> 01:00:05,280
logic need to step in at some point for you

1034
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:09,760
to understand that people got hurt, A child got hurt.

1035
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:11,880
Why is that okay with you?

1036
01:00:13,599 --> 01:00:16,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's hard to get a conviction for

1037
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:21,400
something like that. It's hard to get someone to report

1038
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,840
it to begin with. And you know what what was

1039
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,880
going on. I don't know the you know, I don't know,

1040
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,239
and I don't really want to know the details of

1041
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:36,320
what happened, but you know it there's so many that

1042
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,440
go unreported, Like how many times did it happen before

1043
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:40,519
he got convicted of it?

1044
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,719
Speaker 1: Is where Ione mentioned that to either how many times

1045
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:49,199
before or even after? Like I don't believe for a

1046
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,199
second in any sense that someone who does stuff like

1047
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,320
this stops cold turkey.

1048
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,199
Speaker 2: Right, yep? And you know, depending on you know, what

1049
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,719
the situation was, that might have been normalized for Tony

1050
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,400
because of Ed and Judith. Yeah, like if he got

1051
01:01:07,639 --> 01:01:13,039
kind of indoctrinated and thinking that was okay at some point,

1052
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,400
he might not have thought twice about it.

1053
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:23,119
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that could also lead to so say Tony

1054
01:01:23,239 --> 01:01:28,800
did know about Joe's charges, but maybe Joe being a

1055
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,280
good talker or a good liar, maybe he's fun it

1056
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,320
in a way that made it acceptable to Tony. Maybe

1057
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,000
he told him, hey, it happen this way, I'm trying

1058
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:40,840
to get it removed, even though it was thirty years ago,

1059
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:45,559
and that makes no sense. Maybe Tony just you know,

1060
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:47,519
went with it because he really did just see the

1061
01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:51,440
dollar signs. And if someone's telling you, you know, hey,

1062
01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:53,360
I didn't do the things I'm accused of, and you

1063
01:01:53,559 --> 01:01:56,800
want to believe them, I guess that's your prerogative.

1064
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it could have been like, oh, I was

1065
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:03,719
I was twenty, she was thirteen. You know that was

1066
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,239
normal at the time it was. It's still gross, like

1067
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:13,480
I don't care, you know, different times. Seven years or

1068
01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:16,000
something like that is one thing when you're an adult,

1069
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:21,079
but when you're a child, it's not acceptable. So we

1070
01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:25,199
know that they're under fourteen, and you know, no way

1071
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,880
is that okay at that age. There's really no way

1072
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:33,480
justify it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely disgusting.

1073
01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: Agreed.

1074
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've gotten a fair amount of backlash from that, correct, Yes,

1075
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:47,519
it's been fun. Yeah, I've seen I'm not saying that

1076
01:02:47,599 --> 01:02:50,400
a man wouldn't get backlash, but I have seen women

1077
01:02:50,519 --> 01:02:53,719
get backlash in the paranormal community that men would not.

1078
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I and I find the backlash interesting and very

1079
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:03,320
telling since as because I'm sure these people are supporters

1080
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:08,679
of either nesper and or Joe, And it's like, if

1081
01:03:08,719 --> 01:03:11,719
you're supporting these kind of people, what kind of person

1082
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,639
are you? You're coming at me? Someone who is very

1083
01:03:16,039 --> 01:03:19,360
tries to be very transparent. I forget things a lot

1084
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,400
and confuse myself all the time, but I try very

1085
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:26,320
hard to be very transparent, very upfront, and tell the truth.

1086
01:03:26,519 --> 01:03:28,920
My whole goal is to find the truths and tell

1087
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,440
them and along the way, I have to expose the

1088
01:03:31,519 --> 01:03:35,320
lies because that's part of it. So for you to

1089
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:40,199
be a person that so blindly defends someone that hurts

1090
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:44,360
someone else, like regardless of the child being hurt, that

1091
01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:47,320
is the number one issue. But he has hurt other people,

1092
01:03:48,119 --> 01:03:52,519
not just one person. So you're supporting someone who has

1093
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:57,000
a habit of hurting people, who doesn't care about other people.

1094
01:03:57,079 --> 01:03:59,880
Why do you care so much about them? Right?

1095
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:06,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's all the whole situation, everything about it

1096
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:13,239
beginning to end, from Ed and Lorraine's first trips selling

1097
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,639
paintings to what's going on now, all of it is

1098
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,239
so just gross.

1099
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,079
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, it's got a very uncomfortable undertone.

1100
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:30,239
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah, And I want to just kind

1101
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,679
of I guess, you know, it's a little bit late

1102
01:04:33,719 --> 01:04:37,360
for a disclaimer, but I want to say, like there's

1103
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:41,559
a difference between, you know, wanting to get the truth

1104
01:04:41,639 --> 01:04:44,880
out and enjoying a movie. And I know a lot

1105
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,519
of people around here are like, like they almost feel

1106
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:53,440
guilty for liking the conjuring. Yeah, so I just want

1107
01:04:53,519 --> 01:04:56,760
to say, like I still like the movies when I

1108
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:57,719
say that all the time.

1109
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the movies. The directors brilliant,

1110
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:05,440
the casting was brilliant. The story as a story is good,

1111
01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:09,400
it's entertaining, it's scary. I enjoy the movies. I just

1112
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,960
separate them from like I love to imagine these characters

1113
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,639
that play Ed and Lorraine, like, I love to imagine

1114
01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:19,880
them as a separate thing, like they're their own, separate

1115
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:24,239
characters of different universe that happens to have the same names.

1116
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:26,760
And then I can enjoy it. I don't feel bad

1117
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,639
about it. And because I want to support the artists involved,

1118
01:05:29,679 --> 01:05:32,719
because they're not aware of any of this. The actors,

1119
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,199
the writers, the everyone involved in making a film, aside

1120
01:05:36,239 --> 01:05:40,199
from Warner Brothers, I think, but everyone who makes the magic,

1121
01:05:40,679 --> 01:05:44,239
they're just making art. They're not trying to sway you

1122
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,679
one way or the other. They do put the whole

1123
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:49,199
disclaimer about it being true, but you know that's for

1124
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,960
shock value. You know that's to sell tickets. And the

1125
01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:55,760
people that don't know will eventually learn or they won't.

1126
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,440
It's fine. It's just the people in the paranormal community

1127
01:06:00,159 --> 01:06:03,800
are worried about like being bamboozled and being lied to

1128
01:06:04,119 --> 01:06:06,519
we care. We want the truth, and that's who I

1129
01:06:06,599 --> 01:06:08,360
do it for. So yeah, so if you do like

1130
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,519
the movies, no shame for me. I love the movies.

1131
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, just don't deface an innocent woman's grave because of

1132
01:06:16,159 --> 01:06:18,400
something in a movie. Right, I've heard of that.

1133
01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:20,559
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up, because I was just

1134
01:06:20,679 --> 01:06:23,360
told this morning that her headstone, her new one that

1135
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,960
they raised money for, has been finished and it will

1136
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:27,159
be going up very soon.

1137
01:06:28,039 --> 01:06:31,559
Speaker 2: That is amazing. I've been like checking Google every once

1138
01:06:31,599 --> 01:06:33,679
in a while to see because I know it was

1139
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:35,719
like supposed to go in last fall, and then it

1140
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,400
was March and it kept getting delayed. That's exciting.

1141
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I'm sure that Jamie will send me pictures.

1142
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,840
Jamie Rubio, I've been in contact with her and working

1143
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,000
with her, and she was part of the team that

1144
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:48,199
helped raise the money for it. So I'm sure she'll

1145
01:06:48,199 --> 01:06:50,000
send me pictures and I'll definitely send them to you.

1146
01:06:50,679 --> 01:06:53,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with them driving a sense, so I might just.

1147
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,679
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure. I went when I was up

1148
01:06:55,719 --> 01:06:57,559
there in Salem, and I was really glad I got

1149
01:06:57,599 --> 01:06:59,559
to go. We went and did, like I paid money

1150
01:06:59,599 --> 01:07:00,920
to go to the house. I had to see it

1151
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,559
for myself, like, and I had to hear the whole

1152
01:07:03,599 --> 01:07:06,119
story that they give and like it was for research,

1153
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,719
but it was awesome for me. But it was really fun.

1154
01:07:09,199 --> 01:07:11,639
And I looked up the cemetery and it was just

1155
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:14,639
down the road, so we just ran over there really quick.

1156
01:07:14,679 --> 01:07:17,360
I took some pictures. I paid my respects, and I

1157
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,000
plan to, you know, do a little fun episode about it.

1158
01:07:20,159 --> 01:07:21,960
Make sure I get to pay her some more respects,

1159
01:07:22,039 --> 01:07:24,000
make sure people know that she is getting the new

1160
01:07:24,039 --> 01:07:26,519
headstone and the wrongs are being righted.

1161
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,239
Speaker 2: Definitely. I am so glad that's finally happening, and no

1162
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:32,800
one batter messed this one up.

1163
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:35,199
Speaker 1: That's all I have to say, right, Yeah, Like, there

1164
01:07:35,239 --> 01:07:37,960
are a lot of people that will come for you. Yeah.

1165
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:42,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if people want to learn more about anything

1166
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:45,119
we talked about or follow you, where can they find you?

1167
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: You can find me on any podcast platform just search

1168
01:07:49,039 --> 01:07:52,159
Truth or Demons podcast. And I'm also on YouTube. Now

1169
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,840
I am slower at putting the episodes up on YouTube,

1170
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,000
but there are several up there. If you run out

1171
01:07:57,039 --> 01:07:59,280
on YouTube, you can always head over to Spotify or

1172
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,599
Apple podcast through anywhere. I even read recently, I'm on Audible,

1173
01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:05,119
which is really cool, so anywhere you get podcasts you

1174
01:08:05,159 --> 01:08:08,440
can find it. And then, of course my main social

1175
01:08:08,519 --> 01:08:11,679
media is our Instagram and Facebook. You search, you can

1176
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,960
just search Truth or Demons podcast and you'll find me there.

1177
01:08:15,119 --> 01:08:17,319
And then I am on TikTok. I'm just really bad

1178
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:19,600
at keeping up with the TikTok. I plan to get better.

1179
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,600
So if you do want to follow the TikTok, just

1180
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,119
search Truth or Demons podcast.

1181
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Speaker 2: Excellent, Stevie, thank you again for joining me. This was

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both a blast and horrible at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And again thank you having me on to talk about

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all that stuff because I know it's it's a tough

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one for people to address.

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Speaker 2: And as much information as we can get out the better.

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And again, don't trust me, don't trust you. Go out

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and formulate your own opinion. I don't want to say

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do your own research, because now that's a yucky charm.

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Speaker 1: Are gonna do your own research? At least do enough

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to compare so you have at least you know some

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ideas of what's all out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone just needs to remember critical thinking, I think. Again,

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thank you very much and have a good day. Thanks everyone,

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for watching,