Speaker 1: Hi am, Welcome to the NBA Podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Morton Jensen, and first and foremost, I
would like to apologize.
Speaker 1: For my absence.
Speaker 2: I moved across the country, so I haven't had a
hell of a lot of time to podcast these last
couple of weeks. So forgive, forgive my my my moving around,
and I'm glad to be back. And of course when
I'm back like this, I have to bring on someone special.
That's stanfa Valley off the Hardwood Nooks Knocks podcast, and
today we are going to be discussing the most confusing
teams in the NBA, because like that's the thing with
Dan and I. We figure out things where we can
just list a bunch of players and teams and we
can just go to town on them. That came out wrong,
but you know what I mean. Welcome to the show,
Dan fa Valley, how.
Speaker 3: Are you doing more? Thank you for having me. As always,
I'm doing well. Man.
Speaker 2: Like obviously, moving sucks because it always sucks, like the
whole process. It's nice to get to where you want
to go, but like the whole thing and packing up
one house and packing out and like it's just such
a hassle because you know, you just know you can
have this vision of like, oh, after two weeks of
having moved in, there are not gonna be any boxes left.
You just know you're lying to yourself. You're gonna have
boxes for the first six months. Like there's always gonna
be like that one or two that's gonna be left
in like some corner. Like you don't want to touch it,
your spouse doesn't want to touch it, because none of
you know where the hell things are going, and it's
just gonna stand there and it's gonna test your marriage.
Speaker 1: You just know that's how it's gonna work out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for you specifically. The past two times I've moved,
it's been within a half an hour of where I
was living previously. Moving across the country, I have to
imagine is fucking wild. So I do not envy use.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that that's and it's like that's the thing
because now you also have to like school change, like
job change, there's a whole bunch of things going in
with this, so huge, but like also super excited to
start on something new. Honestly, just like I I've lived
in Copenhagen all my life, so trying something else is
gonna be exciting, Like I I can't front like basically
just having this idea of you've always been in the
same place that bores me.
Speaker 1: It really ports me, and I'm coming up.
Speaker 2: I'm pushing on forty Dan, like come on, I had
to try something new before.
Speaker 3: Forty Yeah, and what better time than to move across
the country during the smack dab in the middle of
the NBA regular season.
Speaker 1: Huh right that was so smart on my behalf. So smart. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you've been in the business, lawel. I planned
my wedding around the NBA schedule, Like that's how, that's
how it works. We don't. I don't deserve kudos for it.
That's just matter of I'm sure other people do that
with whatever their jobs are. But you plan a move
in the middle, in the middle of the NBA Cup
to what I mean more to yeah, I know the
one thing the NBA Playoffs, Like, yeah, move during that.
We've been there, seeing that we're going about the NBA
Cup more.
Speaker 2: Look, I honestly, I was just trying to avoid free agency.
That's that's like, that's my busy time, like.
Speaker 3: The draft and free agency, which is interesting because it
sucks now free agency is always busy in the lead up,
and then everyone's left sort of bag holding when they
thought there was gonna be all this content and all
these big moves to react to, and there's just there's
not anymore, at least not on the same frequency scale.
Speaker 2: No, And honestly, the one thing that I really miss
in the free agency game, you know, it's it's the surprises.
Like the last time I was genuinely surprised that was
when Voge came with the whole DeMarcus Cousins has signed
with the Golden State Warriors tweet that was that's for
some reason, that's the one that sticks out like that
was the last time where I was like, oh, this
is crazy, this is like free agency Flaanapalooza, and everything
else since then has just gone down.
Speaker 3: I don't know when the last time I was really
floored by, oh this player signed for that or ended
up there was, But I will say most recently the
Karl Anthony Towns trade. The timing shocked me. I did
not like that was not so you understood the name,
the destination like that stuff had been in the ether,
but the actual timing of it all it shook me.
I was like, what the hell, what the hell's happening here?
Especially I was I had taken an edible at the time,
and I was just praying that I wasn't gonna be
one of the people called in to do like immediate
reactions for it. I couldn't even do an immediate reaction
Pod Grant and I waited. I was like, dance high,
he is what was going on right now?
Speaker 1: No, I will agree with that.
Speaker 2: I think for me, I was just basically expecting Raindall
to get traded because there was no way I could
see that whole you know, lineup makes sense.
Speaker 3: Doing it right as you're going into training camp knowing
that whatever you're gonna do is not gonna like it's
gonna disrupt your trade. Like the timing really just it
seems like the NBA is good for at least one
of those WTF transactions. For whatever reason the WTFNS exists,
it does seel like we get at least one of
those every mid season and every summer.
Speaker 2: Still, Yeah, we just need a very entertaining trade deadline
to make up for the fact that we don't have
free agency really anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I really do believe based off things that
have just been said off the record that teams still
don't really know how to navigate the collective bargaining agreement
right now. And I think the trade parameters specifically coupled
with trying to figure out like, well, how punitive are
these aprons actually and worrying about frozen draft picks and
figuring out those rules, I really do believe I'm normally
I want to make it clear, I'm normally an optimist
when it comes to the trade deadline. I always predict chaos.
I think there's gonna be more behind the scenes chaos
than actual just people thought last year's trade deadline was
going to be a let down. I'll be happy if
we get as active a trade deadline this year.
Speaker 2: I have to be, you know, the sour puss every
single day when you know, Danish listeners and Danish NBA
fans sent me like fourteen trades.
Speaker 1: Like hey, Mark, how about this?
Speaker 2: And it includes like six all stars and I'm just like, oh, honey,
I don't.
Speaker 1: Even know where to begin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh honey, baby, sweetie pumpkin, this is I'm so sorry.
Like and some of them are even like really well
thought out, like it's not they're not bad traits. It's
like it solves like four teams, So like there's some
person that's been sitting there for like a couple hours,
like coming up with a great, great trade, and I'm
just like, you know, two of those teams probably don't
even understand like the predicament and financially, like it's just
not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3: Look, I reached the point for years and years. I
have my own spreadsheet of like do these trades work?
This CBA shot that entire thing to hell, and it's
thank god the spo track trade machine exists right at
tip Pete Smith because even I've done trade stuff for
Bleacher Report lately. I think one even published where like
I just didn't I included an extra player and a
team that couldn't aggregate, and this was over the off season.
And now it's just I've even seen on sites where
it's like x trades that could totally happen right now
and then they're just illegal in the actual So go
to this po Track NBA trade machine. It is a lifeline,
whether you're just I'm not talking about just for us,
Like if you wanna the basis of any trade would
be Hey, can this actually happen even if you're just
hypothesizing it? And thank God for this pow track trade
machine right now, that's all I have to say.
Speaker 2: I'm super glad you're calling its bo track because I
did so too, and I learned that it's actually spot rack, which.
Speaker 3: Is Keith corrects me every time I had him on
the show, and I feel terrible that I forget after
every time he corrects me.
Speaker 2: I just ignore Keith on that one, because I think
spow track sounds better.
Speaker 3: A spot rack just doesn't roll off the tongue, is fun. Right,
Maybe I'm addicted to saying spo too. That might be it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they should just add coach spo track. There we go.
Speaker 1: That'd be awesome.
Speaker 2: By the way, we're talking about trades, and that's actually
a little bit of a teaser for the next episode.
Like we're doing these double episodes. We've done them a
couple of months in a row. We're probably gonna keep
doing them for a while, just so everyone is kind
of clued into the fact that we're doing this. So
the next episode we're gonna do is about teams that
are more.
Speaker 1: Or less dictate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we're gonna dictate the trade deadline hopefully, hopefully,
so we get some action and that's gonna be in
both our feeds too. But that's where you're gonna play
the host. That's how we're doing things right now.
Speaker 3: I love you doing a terrible job playing the host
for your own subject matter. Then by what's going on?
Speaker 1: I know, I know.
Speaker 2: Well, then let's get back on track. Most confusing teams,
and Dan, we broke it down. So I had the West,
you had the East, and we're basically looking at teams
that we have a hard time, you know, getting a
real idea about, despite the fact that we're like twenty
five games into the season. Like we we watch these
teams on a regular basis, and even though we do,
we look at them and we kind of go.
Speaker 1: What are they are?
Speaker 2: We sure we know who they are? So Dan, your
first up who we're going with here?
Speaker 3: Mort I'm gonna start with a team that was not
confusing me in the slightest until they got so injured
that I'm just fascinated to see what their direction ends
up being. That's the Orlando Magic one. They're confusing as
hell team because both of their star players, Palo Bancaro
and Franza Wagner, Which is the last time I will
say it like that. You told me to try it.
I gave it a shot. Ye, the bleaque injuries and
then I don't remember who tweeted this, but I said
or skied in it. I saw that the last NBA
player to deal with an oblique injury was Cole Anthony
of the Orlando Magic. Something. First of all, that's confusing
the hell out of me. We got it. There needs
to be an investigation done even to what's happening to
the core of these players' bodies by being on the Magic.
But now I look at them as a team and
theoretically they've condn't used me a few times over because
as soon as Palo went down at the time, he
was probably in my top five MVP ballot. We're talking
about four games or whatever. It is so not a
big deal, and I was just like, they're done, it's over.
Then Franz comes out. He's playing exceptionally well, averaging like
twenty seven points offices per one hundred possessions to his
teammates without Palo, just absurd. Above average offense when he's
playing without Palo also absurd. Yeah, yeah, Now, he goes down.
And it's just initially before they lost Palo and then
it took I thought, all right, they're done, they need
to make a trade. Oh, they don't need to make
a trade, but they're gonna be good enough with or
without Palo to then still go kind of make a
trade at the deadline. They felt the quintessential one player
away team or left alone? Were they the third best
team in the Eastern Conference squad, whereas you have the
Celtics and the Cavs and there's still teams that are
vying for that position. Now I'm just again, I understand
the identity of this team, what they were doing before
these injuries, and to their credit, they have taken more
threes as a share of their shots this year. They
just aren't going in. I don't know what to expect
from their offense moving forward. Also right down to the
fact that what do they do, mister Moore after their
with their first game without Palo and Franz. They win.
That's the other thing too. This team is gritty as hell,
They're fascinating as hell. The defense is absolutely hell fire,
just to continue using the hell word. But I also
and maybe I'm overthinking this Pallo. As we're recording this,
the latest update was there's still no timetable for his return.
So he'd been out this long without a timetable. What
does that mean for Franz? And then if you're the Magic,
how do you juggle the weight of immediacy when you
know that you might only have one or none of
your star players for more than half the year At
that point, I don't because I look at this team,
I look at their assets, I look at their timeline. Yeah,
they can do nothing and view this as we'll be
scrappy as hell, we'll see if we can make some
noise in the playoffs and everybody gets healthy. But it's
also all right, You've now paid two of these dudes
in Suggs and Wagner. Their deals are going to kick
in next year. Palo's coming right down the pipeline, and
you know what you need. The way they lost in
the playoffs last year, it was predictable. Their struggles this
year without Palo also predictable. And now it's just, well,
does it ring hollow to say this team should still
consider itself a serious threat when again, it's not just
the fact that both Palo and Fronds are down is
that we really just don't have a hold on even
when one of them is going to come back.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, so in a way we can say
they're confusing because we don't know who they are going
to be without them, But at the same time, I
think their situation necessary I don't think their situation.
Speaker 1: Necessarily is confusing.
Speaker 2: It's like your two best players like just went down
with the same injury, and like the leap from you know,
Paolo and Franz to Jalen Sucks at least from an
offensive perspective, is significant.
Speaker 3: Like would you say that a leap Would you say
that a leap to jug.
Speaker 2: I would say that is that is that is quite
the leap to the point where I'm like, I don't
really know who's going to be the focal point at
the offense moving forward here, because like I actually really
like Jalen Suggs, but even though he shot like thirty
nine percent from three last year, I wasn't necessarily sold
on that being you know, a a a sign of
what's to come, Like I always want a couple more
years to buy into a player shooting.
Speaker 1: We've seen this year that shooting has.
Speaker 2: Gone down from the outside Now granted, some of that
is also Paolo going out after five games, So you
don't have that guy who just draws every single double
team that he can, meaning, yeah, who's the ball guy
on this right exactly and right now there isn't anyone
like I think go.
Speaker 3: Goo Batadze would beg to differ, but please carry out. Yeah,
what did he have like in the twenty one I
think the other night and some threes? Good for him?
In that game he was I think four of ten.
Speaker 2: But I honestly think you kind of said it. I
would lean into let's see what happens. But this is
where I'm still a little upset at the KCP signing
because I just don't think they spent their money wisely.
They had Jet Howards, who they drafted eleventh overall, just
kind of winning in the wings, and like, here is
a thirty one year old you're kind of just signing to,
you know, cock block his minutes where I'm like, Wow,
why wouldn't you want to give him a chance when
you drafted him in the lottery? Right, So I was like,
that didn't make a lot of sense to me. At
the same time, I still think they could use a
real point guard. I know that that's a drum that
Magic fans are tired of hearing, and I apologize, but
I just because Magic fans are tired of hearing that criticism,
I don't think it's less important. I don't think it
makes it less true. They do need someone who can
run the show. I Jalen Sucks is at best a compo.
Anthony Black is a project that's like a project with
you know, some upside at the very least, but like
they don't have that guy who you can give the
ball to, who can handle the offense and say, look,
I'm gonna make a play, I'm gonna make a decision.
I'm constantly going to break down defenses and make sure
we get to that point where we need to go.
Speaker 1: That guy isn't there.
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be fascinating as well to see who
comes out of this. As you know, the best player
moving forward is that is Gogopizatse. Then good on him,
and then we're gonna probably have to ask, you know,
some major questions about Wendell Carter Junior's future.
Speaker 3: There does the calculus for them though, change it all
when because I've kind of pushed back it does feel
like they still need an offensive organizer excuse me in
a vacuum. But if you're gonna have one of paloer Fronds,
does it make your trade scope more particular in the
sense or even if you don't want to view it
through the prism of a trade just saying this is
what we need, but it's more particular to where you
want someone who is closer to a combo guard because
you don't want to take the ball out of Franz
or Palo's hands too much, and so rather than I've
seen a lot of people link them to will look
at dearon Fox's situation in Sacramento. Is that someone whose
name could pop up, he'd be a great fit in Orlando.
I don't have a doubt he'd be a good fit,
But like I also think that someone along the lines
of a Anthony Simons is a name that gets thrown
around a lot. Can you rescue whatever's happening with Terry
Rozier in Miami? They could even be an interesting Tyler
hero team if Miami ever decided to sell It feels
like they could go after a player in that vein
who kind of okay. It helps alleviate the burden our
offense is facing in the interim without one or both
of Franz and Palo. But then this isn't going to
necessarily disrupt too much of what's happening when we have
both of those available. In fact, it should better optimize
our offense for the playoffs in the aggregate. However you
would like to frame it, well.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, so the situation they should be looking
more is basically the situation that the Spurs have right
now with Chris Paul right. Like, Chris obviously is their
point guard, but if you watch them play, you'll notice
that he's not necessarily the guy handling the ball. Eighty
eighty five percent of the time right that the ball
goes through their hands of Wemby, it goes through Stefan Castle,
it goes through Devin Mussalva, and he's healthy like and
he's sort of this break last in case of emergency
point guard. Now where hey, look, if we are in
a slump, if we need something, if we if we
need you know, the your high caliber of point guard experience,
we can go to you.
Speaker 1: You are an option.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the type of player they need,
not you know, everyone needs a Chris Paul, Like I'm
not saying Chris Paul specifically, but someone who can play
off of those two without necessarily dominating the ball. But
if you go into an offensive, then you can hand
the ball to that guy and he could just say, hey, yeah,
I got this. Like a guy who I think would
fit that bill. Unfortunately he's you know, he's not gonna
be available. That's Tyas Jones, Like Tyas Jones's gonna be
that guy for them.
Speaker 3: Do you know this guy might not be available either.
But the actual perfect acquisition for Orlando I still think
is Kobe White is love it. Yeah, that's the trade
where it's okay, it's gonna cost you assets, but he
makes a small not it's not gonna cost you at
nearly everything. And oh he comes in full strength, half strength,
where every roster's at. You got to take the magic
way more seriously than you are in this moment.
Speaker 1: Hell, there's another bulls guard that would make sense there, and.
Speaker 3: That's that money.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 3: Oh I thought you were gonna say Zach Lavin, who
would also make sense in Orlando.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, If we're talking about a guy
who can come in and handle the ball and make
place as well, like I would assume it would make
sense there like a big guard. Defensively, he's he's very solid,
has been since he came into the league.
Speaker 1: You know, the three point shooting is.
Speaker 2: A little bit up and down, but we can see
the same amount ecacle magically right.
Speaker 3: Now right, And that's sort of the other thing is
I think anyone who they get on the ball off
the ball, like you need to know that they're a
capslock shooter. And so I couldn't throw a Dessulu in there,
even Fox when he has like the step back going
and can score from the mid range. I want someone
who i'd rather if you're gonna make the ultra home
run trade, which I think that would be a weird
route to go objectively for the magic you have to
figure out a way to straddle the in between now
post injuries, LaMelo ball would be like the home run
absolute home run name rather than someone who's gonna be
an up and down shooter.
Speaker 2: To me anyway, Oh see, that's the perfect situation because
I'm not as high on LaMelo as a lot of people.
But didn't that him in that situation specifically where he
wouldn't have you know, carte blanche to just go out
and jack up forty foot threes whenever he wants to.
Where there's like a higher key that's going to have
to be established, where he will have to streamline his
own shop profile.
Speaker 1: I would love that.
Speaker 2: That's a great call, Like would you have to you
would have to give up something, of course.
Speaker 3: So to wrap on them, I just want to make
it clear. I wanted to talk about the Frond's injury
because I had him. We did our quarter season awards.
He was fourth on my MVP ballot more and I
think he deserved to be there. And I separate value
from like all MBA because it's like value, I think
you speak to more of them. Well where would this
team be without them? Type deal? But regardless, huge loss,
and I still find the magic more compelling than I
thought I was going to following the Palo Bank Caro
injuries specifically, but now it's I think they have a
lot of I don't know if they're tough for just
interesting decisions to make or calls to make or things
to explore now that your two best players are absent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree they because of all the things
outlined absolutely confusing. Yeah, I have one that and it's
weird to call them confusion confusing when they're sixteen and
eight in the West. The Houston Rockets are confusing to me, ooh,
because here's the thing. Oh yeah, no, so here's the thing.
They are winning off of bench defense, right I'm in
Thompson Tari Easton that have won them a ton of games.
Like It's to the point where I'm asking myself, what
about that starting lineup? How much how much juice does
that really have? Because you have Fred van Leet van Leads,
who's you know, a sub forty percent shooter from the field,
not just from range, from like from the field. The
same with Jalen Green, and both of them are in
like the forty two percent range from three.
Speaker 1: So, like the.
Speaker 2: Efficiency from either it's just not there. I think that's
fair to say Dylan Brooks as well, like forty two
percent from from the field not necessarily a high efficiency player.
So you have your starting Rimmer trio are not necessarily
major offensive boosters in terms of like maximizing your offensive efficiency.
If you can't really count on those guys to produce
at the at the level that they'll need to, what
exactly is the ceiling of this team into you know,
going into the rest of the season. I do have
some questions about that. Like, don't get me wrong, I
love the fact that Tar Easton and Amen Thompson you know,
are killing it from the bench and winning them games
because of their play.
Speaker 1: But I do think there are legitimate.
Speaker 2: Question marks about you know, their their starting lineup and
how they're they're shooting, and how they're producing. Like hell,
we can even throw Jabarie Smith in there also not
necessarily a high efficiency score.
Speaker 1: They have some issues despite their.
Speaker 3: Record, they're yeah, they have issues, but also like that's
starting lineup I think is like a plus eight per
one hundred on the season, and to your point, they're
getting it all done with defense. I'm curious everyone seems
to view them. I mean, by the way, they could
just pull this lever. I don't know if this does
the rest of their rotation, but you insert Amen and
Thompson for Jail and Green and that resulting lineup. Yeah,
even though spatially it feels like it should be worse.
They're just steamrolling opponents right now. I think that's the
that's something that people are already calling for, and I
don't think that's gonna be quieted. I do think because
of the assets they have, because some of their young guys,
I mean, shang Gud and Jail and Green already got extended,
and you're gonna have to talk about Tari Easton and
Jabari Smith Junior leading into this summer. I think people
have pegged them rightfuly so as a big time trade candidate,
I've kind of looked at that and said, the extensions
for Shang Gun and Jail and Green specifically proved to me.
Any decisions happening over the offseason if it's gonna be major,
So I'm I want to know your opinion. My thought
for them has been, if you can judge technically because
you have read Shepherd, the answer long term might already
be on the roster. But what if it I ve
bee one of their biggest offensive problems I would say
as not having the floor open enough to wear. Okay,
these guys are missing shots. They're not necessarily getting the
highest quality of perimeter looks. And for someone like Green
or van Fleet or even look at the space with
which Jabari Smith Junior and al Pray Shangun have to
work with, what if you could just open the floor
with someone who's gonna fly around or at least stretch
defenses and so rather than people and I'm not looping
you into this saying they need to go get another
type of point guard or just they need to consolidate
and get a mega offensive upgrade if you added and
just to shoot. Like I've mentioned his name a few times,
Rockets fans don't love it if you just turn two
of your I think Landale and excuse me, there's Jeff Green,
There's Landale. Who's the other whatever contract? Oh they have,
but they have these whatever contracts. You can just trade
two of them for Duncan Robinson. And if you kind
of insert him into some of these lineups, I think
the floor opens up for everybody else inside the arc.
And that could, I would argue, optimize or further weaponize
an offense that look even to date like they're eleventh
in points per possession. This is not You look at
a bunch of other teams and what do we say,
rank in the top ten of offense and defense. They're
second in defense, eleventh in offense. They have their their
case to just leave it alone. It's fine, but I
recognize I have had the same questions as you have
in the sense of even looking at their net rating
against top ten top ten teams this year, I think
they ranked fifth in net rating against top ten teams.
That's great, but over the course of a playoff series,
I will say, it does feel like their offense seems
a bit solvable, right, No.
Speaker 2: It does, and I think some of that that's got
lost in all this is the fact that we're talking
about like Amen Thompson and Tarry Easan as defenders coming
off the bench, as I you know outlined earlier, but
both of them are also scoring like eleven twelve points
per game. They're getting an offensive boost from those guys.
That matters, Like you need to have those offensive producers.
But if you don't have the floor spacing, if you
don't have the high efficiency player rolling around out there,
I think your call is right on. Like Duncan Robinson
would be so fun to watch there because the way
that he moves off the ball. I don't think a
lot of people really appreciate just how much effort he
puts in to making himself open, Like he forces defenses
out of whack constantly, like constantly. That would open a
lot of fun driving lanes a lot of fun like
backdoor opportunities, like I'm in Thompson would feast next to
a guy like Robinson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the contract I was forgetting is like you have
Tate and Landale and they're basically expiring. So if the
Heat want to get off Robinson his money for whatever reason,
like do you attach them seconds? I like that deal,
but I will I think when you're looking at the playoffs,
because that's look, the Rockets are good, they're contending for
one of the top spots in the West. You have
to look at Okay, what's the playoff liability of what
they're doing at both ends of the floor. The defense
eleven of ten. No, No, it's like zero questions. The
offense you're doing a lot of your stuff is like
predicated on getting in transition, and a lot of that
against select opponents will go away in the playoffs. And
so they're twenty fourth and half court offense and they're
gonna be even worse. Like when you get to that position,
they're still I think they're first in offensive rebounding in
the half court. So like if you're gonna have to
filter that stuff out of the equation, like their first
shot offense is just not very very good relatively. I
think you could argue that it's bordering on tragic statistically.
And that's something that I think. I don't I don't
say they need to go out and get the player
who improves their like needs to be I guess, a
primary option for their first shot offense, but I would
like to see them get someone who opens up all
their other options for that first shot half court offense.
Speaker 2: No, and look, that's not a heart cell for me either,
like you said earlier, in terms of like you're not
looping me in with you know, going out and consolidating.
I've been against consolidating for a while for these guys
because the names they were bringing up were guys in
like their mid thirties. I don't think that's the way
to go about this. Like you have to somewhat stay
true to the timeline to a certain extent. I know
that it's not always like you can get guys who
are you know, between twenty four and twenty five, I guess,
and then continue that route. But going after Jimmy Butler,
for example, at age forty five going on forty six
next year, like that.
Speaker 3: There's no there's like two players over the age of
thirty five. I would listen to a case for and
it's Steph Curry and Kevin Durant just because of what
those two are on offense, and beyond that, it's and
it seems like they are thinking along the same lines
because more all the picks that they've I mean one,
they've decided we're just going to co opt Phoenix's future,
which I believe is smart. But they have all these
distant first it's very much optionality where they they're gonna
have to make some decisions because they can't fit all
these guys in the roster moving forward. But I don't
even think they were Maybe we'll see some movement this summer,
but like the way they've structured themselves with assets, this
was never a team that I thought viewed itself as well.
We have to consolidate right now.
Speaker 2: It's super interesting, though, because I understand the appeal, Like
you're looking at a guy like Cam Witmore as well,
who hasn't played a whole lot this year, but he
was super intriguing last year. You want to get some
of those guys more minutes, like Reach Sheppard is also
only playing like eleven minutes per game, Like I understand
why why fans and pundits are like, hey, don't you
want to see more of insert player X here? But
like if you're six and Nate, you also have to
say somewhat true to the current core I guess, but
like I'm still confused though, Like that's what I was.
I like watching them, watching them play, like I do
think they have some Jews, but it feels like they're
very Orlando magic Is from last year, where if they
make make it to the playoffs, it's gonna take like
what a game two at most if they're up against
a very competent team to.
Speaker 1: Just figure out their offense in its entirety.
Speaker 3: But you did outline another problem, which might be why
they're confusing. I haven't considered them confusing because I just
I think they're great. But you've sold me effectively, is
who are you getting? You're mentioning these are guys that
are not getting a ton of minutes and read Shepherd
and cam whitmore. Who are you Like you're saying stay
true to the current corpus, Like, well, then who do
you trade for that would also be good enough to
deserve minutes? And then you're eventually gonna rip those away
from who. I mean, these answer are just like yelling green,
let's let's just strip those minutes down, baby. But like
that's also a complication here where it's okay, yeah, you
want to stay true to what you're doing, but whoever
you train for, if you're giving up players who aren't
really playing or aren't integral, you got five minutes from somewhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. That is true, And ultimately that's what
I think makes them confusing. Like, don't get me wrong,
Like Rockets fans should not take this as a point
of criticism because they have been fun to watch and
they're winning and they're playing an exciting brand of ball.
Speaker 1: But it's tough to me to look.
Speaker 2: At this roster and go, oh yeah, like Western Conference finals.
Speaker 1: Baby, I'm not there.
Speaker 2: I don't think they're gonna make like, you know, a
Trey Young Hawks run in twenty twenty one anytime soon.
Speaker 1: Okay, Dan, So who is next on your list of
most confusing teams in the NBA.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go with a team that doesn't seem
to understand the plot of this season, and that is
the Chicago Bulls, who are sitting tenth as we record
this in the Eastern Conference. They won entirely too many
games for where they should be headed, more games than
I think people would be expected. They have the gall
to be way more watchable than I was ever predicting
this season. They play fast, they play free. Zach Lavine
has been an absolute joy this season. Nikola Vucevich is
not making any sense because he's hitting all these shots.
Kobe White remains a delight. Josh Getty's first team all
empty calories numbers. That's really fun to see. I look
the Bulls have been. They've been way more entertain Their
defense sucks. It's also been cool to see Lonzo Ball
actually on the court. Their defense sucks. I don't understand,
like what is going on here because this might spill
into some of the trade talk will eventually do, so
I don't want to harp too much on the trade
stuff of it all. The organization apparently like is not
getting a ton of good offers for zach, Lavine and
Vouch at this point, and that kind of underscores what
we already knew that the offers for these guys were
never gonna get a lot better, and so why are
they still on this team, or why are they still
playing so many minutes? What is your direction? And again
this is not oh, you don't watch the Bulls if
you think they suck. I don't think they suck. And
that's the problem. This team needs to suck like it
needs it doesn't. Their direction sucks. It's incoherent, and they
continue to confuse me because if you look at the
way they've played this year and right, these are all
good harbingers. But because you have guys on the contracts,
you do unless you were looking to move Kobe White,
which I could argue that still should be in consideration
just because of the contract he's on. Do you want
to pay him Megan dollars when you're not gonna be
good enough? But I'm throwing that out of the equation.
Like the zach Lavine and Kolovucevic I for off, they
don't play another second this season, their trade value to
me isn't really gonna change, and so it's time to
really lean into this skin rather than are you gonna
continue to chase spots nine through twelve in the East.
And I do think what's happening too is they're sacrificing
some like valuable time here because they're just Eastern Conference
teams and teams in the NBA that are so much
worse when you look at Washington specifically in the East.
New Orleans has been a disaster this year. The Jazz
are determined not to win any basketball games. This team
should be in contention for just like a bottom five record,
flat out, and yes, that is still possible. But at
the same time, it's all right, you're we're getting to
a point where trade season's about the kickoff. Do you
understand what the plot of this season is supposed to
be from them? And I say, this is just I
also would argue I didn't expect them to be in
this predicament. If they didn't make you could have given
me this exact rotational pattern that they have right now,
and I would have predicted that the Bulls are far
worse than they actually are. And so that is a
credit to the players, to the coaching staff for sure. Again,
they've been pretty entertaining on the offensive end this year,
but I also feel like what they're doing right now
is potentially problematic for their long term future.
Speaker 2: You basically just spoil the entire article that I wrote
about them over at jahou a couple months ago, because
that was basically it. You just summed it up in
like two three minute blurb. That's exactly the point they
I commend them for actually changing their shot profile, because
I don't want to be one of those people I've
been harping on this for years that they had one
of the league's worst shot profiles. Then when they go
out and actually change it, I do think it deserves
some level of note of compliment, really because finally you
do something that's that's the right thing to do, but
the timing of which is so utterly confusing, so weird,
which is just the perfect way, Like this should really
be just the Chicago Bulls episode because it makes no sense.
Nothing makes sense here, Like this is the year they
should bottom out for Cooper Flag, they refuse to bottom
out for Wemby and like it.
Speaker 1: It just it.
Speaker 2: It's almost bewildering at this point why they persist in
this idea that hey, look, trying to make it in
to the PL tournament beats going out and actually getting
a chance at a real time superstar, Like I know
there are no assurances in the draft. Don't get me wrong,
I'm not saying that you know, you know you're gonna
win number one. But like the twenty twenty five draft,
let's just be real about this. Everyone worth listening to
her saying, oh, yeah, the draft is back, baby, this
is going to be a sick, thick year, Like it's
going to be a lot of All stars in this draft.
Speaker 1: And the Bulls are like.
Speaker 2: Nope, and they even, oh, this year's pick to the
Spurs at least if it falls outside the top ten.
So like, could you imagine that they get the eleventh
and they have to fork that thing over and the
Spurs just gets an All Star at that point, like
it's so and then like they should have learned their
lesson because remember when they traded for Booch ultimately that
the Magic get for him Franz Wagner like the Jet
Howard too.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's they just don't learn from their mistakes.
Speaker 3: You know. What is also confusing is what do you
think that they're doing wrong specifically when you look at
who like the roster as because we could say trade
like the zach Lavine if you have an offer for
zack Lavine that doesn't entail ruining your books or costing
you picks. Ditto, for vouch, just do it because that
feels like or stop playing them. That will be politically
disastrous and I can't imagine either be happy about it. Right,
that almost feels like because they've done like we know
a lot more about Maybe it took them too long
to get to Modus buzzellis this year, like who didn't
play that much during the first fifteen games or whatever,
but now we have more information on him I've had.
I never would have guessed that I had Julian Phillips
moments that were actually encouraging this season. So they are like,
we've seen stuff from a team that is somewhat acting
like it's in this interim period, but not enough. And
I don't know who to I mean like, you're playing
like Josh Giddy and Patrick Williams play and they're statistically
yes they can. Josh Getty specifically will have good numbers,
but his on court time, like that's been damaging to
wins and that's good. Didn't play Patrick Williams more up
that offensive usage, baby, let's see I want to see
more Patrick Williams ISOs. Let's time this guy operate over
ball screens, running pick and rolls. But that's Also what
makes them confusing to me is do you think that
moving or like, because I guess what I'm getting at
is it feels like the most effective way for them
to get where we believe they need to be is
to make the call that we know they're not ready
to make and say, well, it's not just a matter
of moving Zachlvine and Vooch, it's Kobe White. It's time
to capitalize on that. Like it's That's what I'm waiting for.
Is the tough decision of because even when it got
to Caruso and DeRozan, it was just, well, DeRozan's a
free agent, that's a sign and trade. The decision was
almost kind of made for you, but not really, and
Cruso was very anti climactic the way that ended. He
didn't get any picks for get out in front of
Now you've had you have zach Levine and Voots to
points where I would say they have definitely been degraded
as trade assets on their current contracts, regardless of how
well they're playing, and don't get to that point with
someone else where it's Kobe White. I don't think his
trade value is ever going to be higher than it
is now. Honestly, it's probably been lower since the summer,
just because he has less time left on one of
the biggest deals in the one of the best deals,
excuse me, in the league. And I understand that he's
young enough to be part of the next phase of
their plan. You got to map out what the next
phase of that plan is for me before you sell
me on keeping this player, who I think is more
valuable to you and where you should be going as
a trade asset. And I think that is probably the
most unpopular Bulls opinion I would have relative to Chicago fans,
And I think that's fine, But like I just yet
to see this team make decisions that point toward a singular,
coherent vision for beyond the moment, and they're still right
now there Again, maybe they were expecting to be worse.
We saw this with the Jazz a couple of years ago,
two straight seasons of just being better than they expected.
I get it, But like the Bulls' margin for error
isn't what the Jazz have because they didn't get here
by trading a bunch of big names and getting a
ton of draft picks the way that the Jazz.
Speaker 1: Right fully agree.
Speaker 2: I wrote about this in September, because, like you, I've
been I've been voicing the Kobe Kobe White thing for
a while now, much to the frustration of Bulls fans,
which I get.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be the person that's your team
needs to trade all of their good players. Yeah, but
like the Bulls who kind of put themselves in maybe
it's just all right, don't trade Kobe White, but like,
let's you really need to steer into this skid somehow,
and it's Zach Levine and vouch are kind of used
as the two biggest billboards for where they are, and
they've been two of their three best players this season.
But like, I don't even know, maybe that will do
enough damage if it's just hey, not really playing those
guys or moving them. Okay, do that and then see
where to still be here where? And it's I guess
it would be different even too if it well, those
guys really aren't playing a ton of minutes. Zach Colvine's
at thirty three plus for the season, Nicole Vucevic is
at Granted they don't just have bigs at all, but
he's almost at thirty two minutes per game, so it
doesn't feel like this team understands what it I won't
even say it has a plan and it's backfired. I
don't think they even understand what they're supposed to be
doing at the moment. Right.
Speaker 2: No, And so that is basically the consensus as well,
which is like a tourist Carnishovis and Mark Eversley that
they have some serious shortcomings in understanding how to take
advantage of certain situations. The Kobe White thing. Like again
I wrote about this in September. I understand their predicament
because of the one hundred and forty percent extension limit,
and to some extent, I also sympathize with the Bulls because,
let's be real, the one hundred and forty percent extension limit,
which which raised from one to twenty in the recent CPA,
is penalizing teams for Nick cootiating. Well, like that's the
one thing the Bulls have done extremely well, Like they
got you know, Kobe White back. What was that deal?
Three years forty six That's yeah, that's exceptional value. I
would assum of three years twenty one million also exceptional value.
Like even the Jalen Smith contract this year, what which
was I think three years twenty eight right now?
Speaker 1: Was it twenty eight? Somewhere along those lines.
Speaker 3: It was three twenty seven, I think, although to be fair,
that apped them and then made the entire DeMar to
Rosen of it all more difficult though.
Speaker 2: Right, But even even though I'm just talking about like
the value, they know how to get bang for the
buck in terms of like contractual assets. So it is
hard to like point the finger at the bulls and say, well, look,
you're dumb because you've got Kobe White back on a
great deal, Like the league shouldn't penalize teams for getting
guys back on good deals, Like it's a dumb thing.
And I asked Mark Tatum this somewhat recently, and he
was like, well, we're we haven't had that conversation yet,
but we're gonna We're gonna review it and we'll see
down the line about the one hundred and forty percent rule.
But like the fact of the matter remains, the one
hundred and forty percent limit is in place.
Speaker 1: You can't extend Kobe.
Speaker 2: White because why would he ever agree to that. You
haven't made yourself attractive enough for Kobe to sit there
in free agency in twenty twenty six and go, oh
my god, I love the Bulls. You're so competitive. You
really I can really win here. No, he's gonna fucking leave.
That's gonna happen. Listen real about it.
Speaker 3: You have to, I would argue, yes, But also, if
they're willing to pay him, we might just stay. They're
gonna the free agency market.
Speaker 2: Yes, this that there is that. I know that they
can pay him. But here's the thing, You're still risking
him going into unrestricted free agency. That's kind of your point. Yeah,
like you can't necessarily bang on the fact that you
are that you're able to contain him. That's the thing.
You have to risk it. And if he then leaves,
you get nothing in return for him. You just you
don't get Jack in return. So the trait that I
came up with, I don't know if I ever mentioned
this to you, I probably have. It's a Spurs trade.
I'm sending both him and Io to the Spurs. Did
I ever?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think No.
Speaker 2: All right, Sat Collins and Malchi Brandam goes back. That's
just the contractual stuff. Okay, the Bulls get their full
control of their pick back twenty twenty five this year,
So like they have it, even if they finish eleventh
or twelve, it's theirs, and then they get the unprotected
Hawks pick in twenty twenty seven via the Spurs.
Speaker 3: I wonder if that's enough, just because you can.
Speaker 1: Ask for more.
Speaker 2: Like Jason patt Say said the same thing to me
when I when I pitched him this, like he said,
you can you can probably ask for more.
Speaker 1: That's fine. But like as a raw parameter, I don't
hate that construct.
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't hate it either. I think
you would probably because the thing about getting control back
of your own pick this year is that if you are,
if you're trading Kobe White, like, you don't have to
worry about that pick conveying. So I don't know what
type of and if you don't want it to convey,
let's be honest, you can make sure it doesn't convey
without regaining control of it. So, and I guess what
is it?
Speaker 1: You can worry about it. If Nikola Vusovich keeps shooting
fifty from the.
Speaker 3: Field, come on, you can control that though by not
playing him or playing him less or treating him so.
But yeah, I mean Kobe White or San Antonio Orlando,
you can get a bunch of teams where he makes
a ton of sense. I just don't know if the
Bulls are thinking in those terms. I don't even know
if they're thinking in those terms. Enough with Zach Lavine
and Nikolovuvich, which probably good time to get to your
next team, but that really just spotlights the problem here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, we can we can go so long
on this team because I think we can also agree
like Dan, that this has to be the most confusing
team in the NBA, Like of all the teams that
we're talking about, they have to be a top.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that they're They're close to it. I
think you could probably make some like confusing cases for
good teams where it's kind of like, well why are
the Clippers this good? Like be pleasantly confused, but in
terms of just like just immeasurable confusion, Yeah, they're They're
definitely topping the charts there.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that segue. I really appreciate it
because we are going to Los Angeles Clippers that that
actually was the next team on my list, So thank
you for that. I look, I'm just confused at how
they keep winning.
Speaker 1: I'm impressed.
Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, I'm very impressed, but I'm also confused,
and I'm wondering if the clock is ticking on this
because they are fourteen and eleven in the Western Conference,
with James Harden shooting under or heating under thirty eight
percent of his shots this year, which is like, if
I told you that before the season, just knowing well
that Kawhi wasn't gonna play and James Harden was going
to hit like thirty seven point nine percent of his
his shots twenty four games into the season, you would
have told me that they would have been right in
the line for Cooper flag. We're not there, man, We're not.
They're winning. I mean I saw them at the Intuit
Dome come back and pete the Spurs after being down
forty to fourteen in the first quarter. Like they have
some fight, They have some gusto. Like I'm still confused
about their ceiling, but I'm also just confused, is how
do they keep getting away with this?
Speaker 3: The look we kind of just discussed when we were
doing awards because we were talking about Chris Dunn for
all Defense sort of relitigated their decision to let Paul
George walk, and then the machinations that allowed you Primarily
you brought back Nick Patoom, you bring in Chris Dunn,
you bring in Derek Jones Junior. The defense of this
team is just ferocious, and I think you probably could
have predicted most of that. The things that stand out
there for me specifically would be, Okay, how are they
this small? They have one guy who's taller than six
' eight who's a heavy used rotation player, that's if
he's a zoobots and yet they're what first in defense
of rebounding despite so they're second now behind Golden State,
So that's something that stood out. And then offensively, Norman
Powell just looking like a viable number two option, upping
his self creation, getting downhill more. Still not facilitating a time.
That's fine, but his efficiency is intact beside the excuse me,
in spite of this just demonstrative, demonstrable excuse me, uptick.
I can't talk while I'm sick, apparently uptick in volume.
So they have confused me as well. But you know
where the confusion kind of stems from now is that
you thought they were kind of just trapped in no
man's land because you mentioned they should be first in
line for Cooper flag. Doesn't fucking matter. Oklahoma City would
be first in mine for Cooper flag.
Speaker 2: If the Clippers that's true, that you know, that is
very for a point, but you know what I meant though,
like I was just.
Speaker 1: In the league.
Speaker 3: But that that makes them, This makes them more confusing
because it's it seems like they were kind of just
gonna eat their medicine and either tear it down anyway
or just hover near the bottom of the middle of
the league. And now it's, well, they haven't had Kawhi
play yet, and if you come back, if he's even
playing twenty minutes a game, that is huge for your offense,
the load that it takes off James Harden's shoulders. But
then they're also confusing because did you ever expect me
to ask you this question? More is should the twenty
twenty five Los Angeles Clippers view themselves as aggressive buyers
at the deadline because they are, like they're still in
this window, like they have Kawhi and a roster. You
don't own your picks anyway, You're good enough to hover
without Kawhi Leonard, without a good offense around the fringes
of the Western Conference playoff discussion, shouldn't you hashtag go
for it? Whatever that looks like. But then you could
also make the case of, well, how much better who's
the best player they can acquire by putting a twenty
thirty or twenty thirty one first round pick on the table.
They answer that question is I don't fucking know, but
this team is good enough at this point for us
to consider the possibility.
Speaker 2: He said, like, what do you use as a trade
chip in the salar matchup chip?
Speaker 3: Though you have PJ Tucker flow around in there, you
can't trade Zubos and.
Speaker 2: No, but like PJ is like eleven and a half million,
I'm talking about like a big name, like if we're
talking about Cyclobean or someone of that ILK.
Speaker 3: So they can't do that trade anymore unless you're gonna
get rid of Norman Powell, who I just has turned
has gone from I think people were kind of net
negative on his contract, and now it looks like, oh, no,
you can't. You can't move that guy. Why would you ever? Uh?
I mean, they can consolidate, which helps their case. So
I mean I thought I proposed this. I don't mean
to like harp on Kobe White, Kenny Beacham of Kenny
for Real, who was a Bulls fan, hated it, Kobe
White and like that twenty thirty one first, and then
you include a swap in twenty thirty Does that get
you Kobe White? Use PJ. Tucker and small salary X
for that? That's probably My guess is that's not enough
because you can even include Terrence Man instead of PJ. Tucker.
But my guess is Chicago's.
Speaker 1: Front office on Terrence Man? How dare you well?
Speaker 3: The problem with what the situation the Clippers are in, though,
is any primary trade appeal that they send out will
not convey for approximately eternity. And if you're a front
office unless you're OKC or maybe Houston at this point
where you just have unflappable job stability, it's tough to
sell that to ownership to your fan base of we're
taking back salary filler in a twenty thirty one or
twenty thirty first round pick to give up this guy
who's good, but like they could get could they get
Dennis Shrewder without having to give up a first round pick? Outright?
Like can you get the money to work there? Maybe not?
But like those are imagine making that type of an upgrade.
It doesn't have to be a fringe star type. If
you put Dennis Schreuder on this team, their offense is
gonna hum more for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't see why you could. And he's
a free agent after this summer, but.
Speaker 3: I'm sure Brooklyn might you know, if the offer is
I probably would give up Man for Dennis Shrud. I'm
not gonna lie. So maybe Brooklyn looks at Man as
just more monitor that contract move forward. You could still
defend really well when he's healthy. But like if you
could do Man in seconds for and I don't know
what the money is on that one, you might have
include another small salary maybe, But like could Brooklyn say, well,
we're gonna get better seconds from someone else because the
Clippers aren't exactually flush with like draft picks in general.
Speaker 2: No, like the draft capital is always going to be
limiting to them because they just gave up everything for
a while there. I don't know the answer to that.
It's a really good one though, Like if they want
to be buyers, I guess I guess the question for
me is, even if they were buyers, one, what type
of player can they bring in that truly moves the needle. Secondarily,
you know what would their ceiling be?
Speaker 1: Like? Genuinely it's tough.
Speaker 3: Well, it's tough without seeing what Kawhi looks like or
even we kind of we've seen this movie too many
times before. Yeah, but like that that would be a
reason for them to be hesitant or to wait. Is
that it sounds like Kawhi is supposed to come back
before Christmas, So can you get a sample with him
and then you'll have a better idea of well, what
do we need most and then how much will that
do for us? But it's also tough. Kawhi could be
playing right now, look like an All NBA player. Again,
it's still tough to make that call because can you
count on his body holding up into the playoffs? We
just have this recurring track record, whether he's load managed,
whether he's just playing more that he is not going
to remain healthy for that long And so I think
that adds another dimension of confusion to this situation.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like here's the thing when I hear something
like that with with Kawhi, where people are like, oh,
he's gonna be back at you know, a B and
C kind of date. My next follow up is, sure,
that's great, when is he gonna go out again? That
that's where we are, and that's that's tough, and it's
it's harsh to like ask that question, but that's that
has to be the assumption. Look, I'm also at that
point with Philly, for example, where I just cannot recently,
you know, I can't have reasonable expectation with them in
a playoff context. With Empat because he's just never healthy
for the playoffs. I'm at this point now where I
can't go in as an optimist anymore. So that their situation,
like they'll have to prove to me and everyone else
that yeah, we actually can stay healthy in the playoffs,
Like they'll have to show me once at least once
for me to buy into that idea once more. And
for Kawhy now it's just like he's so good, he's
so good when he's fully healthy, Like I'm not gonna
stit here and act like he's not. But even if
he does come back, we're one we're not sure that
he can stay healthy too. We're absolutely not sure if
he can stay healthy for the playoffs, which is an
entirely different beast and so much deeper into the season.
Speaker 1: It's just.
Speaker 2: I don't want to go as far as saying maybe
the contract, the contract that you could ship out is
ka why, because like, come on, he's he's your seiling
racer after all, right, Like yeah, yeah, I just can't
rely on I mean at this point, like even if
I go out and act like a buyer, I can't
bank on him coming back and giving me the production
and the minutes that I need to.
Speaker 1: I just can.
Speaker 3: I think the plus there though, is that they're a
more pleasant degree of confusing than we ever would have
expected them.
Speaker 2: That's a good way of bracing it, all right, Dan,
we have a couple of teams on the list still,
So who are you going with?
Speaker 1: And you're still in the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to now because I have too many picks
for my final two teams, but I am pretty dead
set on We need to talk about the Atlanta Hawks,
who this season they've dealt with some injuries. Trey Young
has not been the best version of himself as a scorer.
He's still a transcendent passer twelve point two assist per
game or whatever. He is that this year, What is
going on in Atlanta where the defense has outperformed the
offense for over their last fourteen games, which is so
ever since they beat the Celtics, they are eleventh in
points allowed per possession. They're actually getting burned from three
during that stretch. Though you look at it and you
understand some of it, where Clin Cappella is still just
really he's a really solid rim protector. Everyone wants them
to get rid of him and usher in the onyaka
conglu era, and there might be an argument for that
with Capella going a free agency. He helps you end possessions,
he still helps you protect the paint. Those have been
vital to both to their defense. The fact that you
have a Dyson Daniels now who's just the consummate disruptor
and the things that he can do. This team can
generate turnovers now in ways that it could not before
with the previous personnel. You've also had this trickle down
effect with the way you're structuring your rotation where if
he plays in enough games, DeAndre Hunter might just win
six Man of the Year at this point. So I
look at them and they're another team where it's not
similar to the Clippers, but like their draft pick is
going to San Antonio this year, and yet we all
kind of had them build for they're gonna win, Like
if they really try, like thirty three to thirty seven games,
is it time more to recalibrate how good Atlanta can be?
And if so, is that another team where it's well,
could they do something that's spicier than we would have
thought around the true because the offense for this team
has been disappointing, But when you consider the time that
DeAndre Hunter missed, how many shots that Trey Young has missed,
how much time bog Dog Bodanovic has missed, you kind
of look at it and say, all right, maybe we
are waiting for the defensive performance to change a little bit,
but this team isn't gonna hover around the bottom ten
of offense forever. And like kind of looming in the
backdrop the Trey Young list, like when he's not on
the floor, there's still a disaster. Overall, they're like minus
five point five net rating, but like when Jalen Johnson's
on the court during that time, there are more comfortable
minus two point three and the offense is still overall
dog shit. But just like he's given you enough. I
never thought he was gonna be this player. I want
to make that clear. He's given you what I call
and maybe other people call it like more dead stop
playmaking than where it's not. No, this guy needs to
get the ball in movement like he will just set
up shit. Now, I am the word I used I
was asked to when I was describing every NBA team
in one word at bleacher Report. I used mysterious for
them because I still can't figure out what they're ceiling
or even the purpose of this season needs to be
for them. And then finally, just because I want to
mention him, I think Zacharysiche when you look at his
usage offense, can be all over the place. He moves
well off the ball gets out in transition. We've seen
some games and even like extended stretches where if the
three ball is falling, I think he's already like he
kind of gets it on defense too. Right now, I've
been mostly impressed with what I've seen from him, even
you're probably expecting more from a number one overall pick
on balance, but relative to that draft class, like I
think he's like they're not closing games with him, They're
more inclined to do that with DeAndre Hunter. This seems
like kind of deep. They could still use another backup
playmaker because that's not really Kobe Buffkins thing. And yet
you have Dyson Daniels, you have Jalen Johnson, you have Bogdanovic.
They're mysterious, they're fascinating, they're confusing the whole nine more.
Speaker 2: Yep, It's it's super interesting in terms of whether or
not they should be buyers as well, because that's that's
been one of the things that the Hawks fan base
has talked about a ton Because Jalen Johnsonish who you
brought up. His extension is going to kick in next year,
so like he's gonna earn twenty five and a half
million more on his year to year salary than he
does this year. So if you go out and like
shop Larry Nance or a Klint coppelis expiring contract, sure
you could do that. And if you get long term
contracts in for those guys, their bill is going to
be pretty hefty already next year. And if they're just
lulling around, you know, five hundred, can you really justify
making that type of buying move at this deadline? This
to me feel like they're more of a let's make
a big move in this summer type of team.
Speaker 3: But can I ask you a question? You know why?
They also confused me because I think even with the Clippers,
with all these other teams we talked about me in Chicago,
it was just stripped this motherfucker down already. But what
is it that you want the Hawks to trade for?
I don't know that you can isolate. I think you
get to an uncomfortable situation where it you have to
upgrade on what is already kind of a rock solid
infrastructure in place where it's well there, we want to
upgrade the big man spot and at like the minutes
and it's well, good luck from a Kungo and Capella
and Larry NaNs Junior floating there, and then Jalen Johnson
of course is up front. I'm talking more about the
center position, or it's you're not going to go all
in on a backup playmaker, like when you asked tra Young,
that's not gonna be something you do.
Speaker 1: You're right.
Speaker 2: It was the center position, if anything, right Because as
much as I love on Yakou Kolobo and I've been
banging that drum too that he should start, I will
say this brat Rowland, who does locked on Hawks. He
did convince me that, look, Yek is great, but he's
just too damn short.
Speaker 1: Like the league.
Speaker 2: The size advantage in the league now is just size
is coming back. It's made a comeback on y k
is six ' eight, Like he's so good at what
he does, he's just not a starting center because of
that size. Like I've really had to come to Jesus
moment with him because i've for two years I was like,
start him. I don't care start him because he's too
good not to. But I'm getting it down, Like I'm
getting why that's not happening. So it would have to
be the center position. Like you said, who do you
go for there? Who's available? Who is one legitimate upgrade
for the long term, who fits the timeline, like who
can build something sustainable with his team?
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 2: Two even if you do identify the right player, is
that player one available and two at what price point?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: It's I don't think we should factor in the fact
anymore that they don't have their own pick because it's
a sun cost like we I think optics they will
be shitty regardless, Like if if the Spurs win Cooper
Flag with Atlanta's pick, yeah, it's gonna suck.
Speaker 1: But like there's they have no control over that situation.
Speaker 2: So eventually we just have to focus on them and
their process. And I don't know whether they should just
lean into the youth for the rest of the year
and just say, look, screw it, we're just gonna play
the young guys, develop them a ton, and then going
to next year more ready to compete, or if you
should prioritize winning.
Speaker 3: I don't. Here's my thing is who are they not playing?
Of the I think like you're zacharyche is playing over
twenty five minutes a game, Dyson Daniels is playing over
thirty four minutes a game. Jalen Johnson leads them in
minutes per game. They're I think they're the way they're
doling out minutes, like they're basically have this like perfect
split between Capella and a Kungu up front. I think
that's why they're confusing to me, is that I I
understand you have to use that pick as at something costs,
and I guess you could just say we're gonna stand
pat make sure that we're not sending them a great pick,
but I would have told you before the season and
clearly incorrectly, that they are more likely to tear it
down than be in the conversation of is this a
team that should be making upgrades? And I know that
they just got waxed by Denver, But like I'm kind
of in the latter camp of they either need to
do nothing or can they make it? Doesn't have to
be a huge upgrade. But do you reunite with Dennis
Shrewder as a backup point card? I you can figure
out the way to make the math work there without
giving up a ton of draft equity? Does that help you?
That's why they've confused me, and I'm wondering. I also,
I of course want to know if the defense is
stuff is sustainable. I know that Trey Young has been
trying harder for two years. He's still bad, Like that's
just you talk about size. He's small and slight, like
that's just the inherent downside to him. But this team
is They're another one who I find pleasantly confusing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And DeAndre Hunter. I haven't
spoken enough about him on this pod this year. He's
been He's been so much better. It seems like he's
figuring stuff out. Like I know it's only a fourteen
game of sample size, but like he's cut out the
fat of his shot profile. He's far more assertive this
year than he's ever been before. He feels like he's
gotten the green light to an extent he's never had before.
And he's like, Okay, fine, I love that, Like, give
give it to me. I if there's you know this
Harrison Barnes pivot, that's the player I compared into. And
just in terms of this shot profile, that's interesting moving
forward to like that that's not something we should just
kind of dismiss.
Speaker 3: That's interesting. I feel like there's still room for him
to kind of like trim fat out of his shot profile,
Like yeah.
Speaker 1: Still no, no, no, but he's on the right way,
Like he's on the right path.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the look. I can't argue with anything
he's done offensively this year. So I think it's it's
definitely a positive indicator that when you kind of look
at it does feel like he's making even if you're
gonna see him take mid range jumpers, it just feels
objectively like those decisions and shots are coming off quicker,
so he is I think once he plays in more games,
unless they decide that, hey, this is someone who needs
to be a starter, which I mean, he's been good
enough to have that conversation. He'll be in the sixth
Man of the Year running for sure. But they've been
they I did not look and I say, we need
to couch all this with the fact that it's not
like they're fifteen games over five hundred. They're thirteen and twelve.
But this is a team that I thought was like,
they're seventh in the East, which I guess is maybe
where it's weird because they're probably where you would expect
them to be. You would have said, the Hawks are
gonna finish anywhere between seven and thirteen, right or seven
and ten, seven and eleven, And yet they're here, and
they're not here in the same way I would have
expected them to get here.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: No, I agree, it's it's been it's been an odd
year for them. But I do think pleasantly surprised. That's
probably the category I fall into. GET can also, like
you and I did the league pass rankings, as we
do every single year, they've funked their fun to watch
that counts as a plus my book, like Jalen Johnson
objectively is one of my Like he's just he's so
fun to watch and I can't I don't think I've
seen a single person so far a go oh yeah,
I'm not entertained by watching him play like six ' nine,
super long innitiate. The offense has decided to take a
little bit more shots this year, which is like, yes,
love it, Like more of that, please, secondary playmaker. I
don't think he's done either in developing at all. I
think there could be another leap coming next year. Like
I I am interested to see where this team goes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there there. I guess this is like a combination
of fascinating and confusing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, another team that's I think confusing at least to
some extent.
Speaker 1: No, that's the Denver Nuggets.
Speaker 2: Nikola Jokich is playing MVP caliber basketball, and it feels
like we're watching a man like single handedly going up
against an opponent every single night, Like I'm just not
counting in everyone else around him, like Jamal Murray is.
That situation is getting concerning. In all caps, I'm super
impressed by Michael Porter Junior, Like he's played all twenty
two games this year. He played eighty one out of
eighty two last year. Is he durable all of a sudden,
because that kind of changes the math on this team.
Speaker 3: As well, not on defense. Hele apparent, right right, That's
that's part of the conversation too.
Speaker 2: I love what Christian Brown has done. Like I wrote
an article about him early in the season where he
was hitting those fifty seven percent from the field. I
was like, well, surely this is not sustainable. And now
we're twenty two games since the season, he's still hitting
fifty seven percent of his shot. So he's basically saying, hey,
shut up moret you know, don't don't write that kind of.
Speaker 1: Bullshit about me.
Speaker 2: He's he's doing well, Like there are a lot of
these components that are doing so well. And despite those elements,
you're looking at Jokich and you're just sensing the drop
off between him and the next man up is so stark.
You never feel as though the guys that I just
mentioned are anything but like bystanders, it's I don't understand
what's going on, Like when Jokicic doesn't play, I don't
have the numbers in front of me, but basically they
turn into the Leak's worst offense when he is on
the court is the league's best. It's I even think
it's the net rating two. It's such a preposterous season.
I just don't know what to make of it. Are
they Are they good enough to the point where if
they just get into the playoffs? Nope, Yo Kicic can
just Jokich his way to like at Western Conference final spot.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing. And so just to back up you,
because this is a number that everybody should be tracking
right now. But I'll get their thirty one point two
points better per one hundred possession with Nicole Jokicic than
that is second in the league only to Christian Brown,
who plays a good amount of minutes with Nikola Jokic,
and that kind of helps. This team does confuse me
because I think when even you point to here's why
they're confusing, is that there's probably no one we like to,
especially when you cover the entire league, is to try
and boil things down, distill them down to these one
or two factors. And I don't know that you could
do that with Denver Nuggets, because it feels like a
series of bad decisions that have led them here, and
it's forget about the Bruce Brown stuff from a couple
of years ago. They couldn't keep him, but by losing
both him and Kentavius called well, Pope, your fit across
the roster is less intuitive. This isn't about anymore that, oh,
can Peyton Watson and Christian Brown be good? It's about
are you getting the same two way squeeze from a
team environment out of all of your guys And the
answer is no, and then you've also wasted if you
wanted to go like let's use KCP as an example.
He has not been good in Orlando offensively. Yes, here's
the thing about him though, compared to Christian Brown and
Peyton Watson, he can blend two different offensive roles. And
I know that Christian Brown's done a little bit more
ball handling this year. But what is Peyton Watson If
he's not going to be in transition, they're probably using
him more as a stationary shooter. What is Christian Brown
in the half court If he doesn't have the ball,
he's going to cut. KCP did all that stuff while
also scoring jumpers or taking jumpers in motion. So you
now you're losing just these elements there and the resources
which were few to their credit, that you had to
improve your team. You have whiffed on them in ways
that it's not just that you whift it's the predictability
behind said whiffs. Who thought signing Reggie Jackson with the
mini mid level and giving him a player option was
a good idea at the time. Literally nobody who thought
the same thing about doing that with Dario Sharan, who
you probably could have gotten for the minimum. Nobody thought
that Russell WESTBKH.
Speaker 2: I have to own up to that one. I believed
in that. I believed in that acquisition, I really did,
and I am. I am paying for it right now.
Speaker 3: Here's the other thing, though, is that you then what
you also did though, and this just speaks to I
think it makes it harder to build your rotations when
the talent is less of an intuitive fit together or
checks as many boxes as it can. Because even put simply,
we're not their six in offense, that's not technically the problem,
but their shot profile is just No one's beginning to
replace the three point volume or threat level you got
from KCP. But what you also did you exacerbated that
issue by bringing in both Russell Westbrook and Dario sarch
So even if both of those names look good in
a nutshell, you created a circumstance where, well, if they're
gonna play together, that's not gonna look great. And then okay,
we could stagger them, but that's going to have a
direct influence on how you build out the rest of
your rotation. And so then you combine that with whatever
is going on with Jamal Murray, who I think the
terrible way to put it is he is one of
the most turbulent roller coasters in the NBA. But like,
this is just someone what is the last fifteen games,
some thirty two percent from three, Like that's supposed to
be that should probably be your best three point Michael
Porter Junior, of course, but like your second best floor
spacer right now. No, like your second best floor spacer
is Nikoliokic because he decided to up his own volume
from three. Although that's come down a little bit, I
think since he's returned from a three game absence.
Speaker 2: Right he's only he's only at a measly fifty point
six percent from three this year.
Speaker 3: Now, what are his attempts up to? Though I haven't
even look he was at like over five at point yeah, so.
Speaker 2: Four point four, and now he's he's become a little
bit more modest taking them.
Speaker 3: And who cares, that's not his job. So they've I
think that's where they've really missed the mark is that
I think you could say, let's just say you had
kept KCP and it's just that makes your rotation easier
to build out, your staggering patterns easier to build out.
Now you've created this problem where nikoliokicch is logging more
minutes than ever, more dependent on him than ever. And
yes he's an iron man. But this is why I
said a quick no, I was being like a snarky
a hole, but it's true. It's not just get into
the playoffs this team, because to just get into the
playoffs is going to run Nikola Jokic into the ground.
It looks like, and that is like, that's not great.
And so I don't know, they're confusing because so many
of their mistakes they were just seen in real time.
Letting let's do this in a vacuum, let's throw everything
else out. That really wasn't a choice. Or you could say, well,
at least they used the miniml e all these other teams.
Didn't you let KCP walk for nothing? That was one
of your six most important players last season and you
let him go for nothing. That is bad asset management.
It is terrible. We're now seeing reporting that they weren't
open to sign and trade scenarios and then they kind
of were it at the last minute, but weren't really. And
so I don't know if Calvin Booth has been hand
cuffed at all by ownership because of what they're willing
to pay for this team. But it's there's not one problem.
Everyone wants to distill down to the one problem.
Speaker 1: This is like a.
Speaker 3: Two year degradation of what looked like a very sustainable
championship corps and it's disappointing as hell because they have
one of the ten best basketball players of all time
on their roster in his prime right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't think personally the KCP was worth
the contract, but I do agree with you that they
should have gotten something out of it at the very
least of losing him for nothing, because you can't go
back to back years of loosing essential wings in the
manners that they did after winning a championship and then
expect Oh yeah, we're fine.
Speaker 1: So I agree with that perspective.
Speaker 2: Now I do think this, I think internally this is
this is my thesist, Like I could be wrong. I
think the way that they're looking at it is one
step back this that being this year, two steps forward
next year, because you're kind of Forcingian Brown, Peyton watching
Julian Strawther into these fairly big roles and for them
to come back significantly better next year. What makes that
peel so hard to swallow, and this is where I
empathize and sympathize with Nuggets fans, is that you're spending
arguably the best, you know season of Yo Kids twenty
nine season that's always like one of you know, the
best superstar seasons you have out there. You're wasting that
on a hey, let's take one step back season. I
don't think you can allow yourself to do that with you.
Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't and isn't that especially true when this
one step back because you look at the guys they're
quote unquote doing this for By the way, I don't
think Christian Brown and Peyton Watson are the issue. Yeah,
where there's nights what was the game that they dropped
was that to before the Atlanta Hawks went, I was
already trolling it. Why am I forgetting it? But like
you watched back with the Wizards game, just deciding not
to really play defense and putting up zero resistant there,
like that's weird, But those aren't the problems. It's and
this one maybe it was tougher to predict. But you
can't play this sustainability card or you know, two years,
because really, I mean last year they were fine, So
it's one year, take a step back to take take
two steps forward. Can you guarantee you're taking two steps
forward when none of this is in service of finding
the second best player on a title team.
Speaker 1: That's a good question.
Speaker 3: So is the miscalculation that they thought Jamal Murray was
and could continue to be that player. And that's a
little bit more understandable just because, yes, Jamal Murray's always
been a roller coaster, but he has hit some of it,
not just in Nugget's history, He's had some of the
biggest playoff performances in NBA history.
Speaker 2: I think it was already pretty clear when he had
the ACL tear that there were skepticisms about how like
he was already balld top before that, and then you
know how many players have we not seen come back
from ACL tears or Achilles tears and and have these
while you know, varying outputs and games. So I think
that was always a fear for them to actually win
the championship after the ACL snare was always something that
was like CW, like a big you know, at least
they got one kind of moment. I do have a
question to you about that though, just in the Jamal
Murray specifically, if he wasn't playing with yo Kisch, if
he was signing elsewhere instead of signing that extension, Like,
what would that have looked like right now?
Speaker 3: I don't I don't know, because look, we have a
years long we have a career long track record of
the minutes he plays without Nakole Yoaku's mostly sucking. Yeah,
And I just like it's that's a tough question. I
don't think they could have made any other decision other
than to extend him, just because what are you going
to do? You got into that situation, So it's just yeah,
it's so that's such a tough question. I don't know
what he would be independent. I think you could make
that names for almost anyone on this roster, but they've
definitely been less built to withstand even like the slightest
like the Aaron Gordon injury or Aaron Gordon not being
on defense what he was last year. Basically, uh, it's
it's really tough for them to try to figure all
this out. And my fob up question here would be
cause I don't know, Like, there's no they don't have
second round picks to trade right now. There's also what
is like DeAndre Jordan just still gets minutes over Zeke Nagy.
How I defended the Zeke nag extension where it was
signed by saying, having a mid level contract that you
can flip will have value. But now you've just reached
the point where you're gonna need to include assets to
get that deal off, and like just you can't even
see the floor over age eighty seven? DeAndre Jordan? What
is going on here? How bad would the and they're
over five hundred. They're in the top half of the
league of both offense and defense sixth and offense fourteenth.
The defense is there at any point? Could do you
think they'll be bad enough to where Nicole Jokic's MVP
case becomes compromised, Like what is the Someone asked me
this the other day and I didn't have a good answer.
I said, if they're ever not sixth in the West,
that feels kind of arbitrary. But that just like the
benchmark where if they're going to tumble past that, that
would really hurt his MVP case. I don't I don't
have a good answer though.
Speaker 2: I don't think I have a good answer, but like
I do have an answer, and that is yes, absolutely, Look,
here's the thing we've seen.
Speaker 1: We've seen so many valid.
Speaker 2: MVP candidates down you know, in history not win it
because of win loss records. So like, yeah, absolutely that
that's always been historically tied to the award, probably minus
Westbrook because like the Oscar Robertson thing with him in
the triple double. So and like even though Yoke himself
is averaging a triple double right now, it's more of
a you know, it's it's it's not that impressive anymore
because Rust did like four years uh so, so he's
not gonna get that same you know, the same luxury,
so to speak. But yeah, I absolutely think that's gonna happen.
Effect I would be shocked if it didn't, even though
he is the best player in basketball.
Speaker 1: But that's again, that is.
Speaker 2: That the NBA loves this, Dan, you know this like
this is gonna have fans debating this for a year
or thumblin if you stop winning it. So the NBA
is like, yes, we love this. Now that the award
is going to go to someone else, and I I
have no idea who's even like the front runner if
it's not Jokic, is Anthony Davis.
Speaker 3: But they probably Shaye or Tatum I would think would
slide into spot.
Speaker 1: Oh she okay, but like Ta that's oh, that's.
Speaker 3: Not I think that's unfair. I think that's unfair.
Speaker 1: Such a stretch you think.
Speaker 3: So, I will say, disturbing.
Speaker 2: About such a big level below Yokic, though, like such
a big level.
Speaker 3: Below that's the most disturbing part about this team is
I'm al racing people proposing trades. I don't think moving
Michael Porter Junior ain't gonna solve anything for this team,
is my point. And I don't even think you could
if you want to step out of your way with
contracts using some of the young guys. That's not it's
not a one player thing. This is a year's This
is a two I think it's it's more than two
offseasons worth because we got to go back to the
Zignaugi extension. But this is a multiple year's worth of
missteps to end at this point, and they treated this.
I understand the desire to want to be sustainable rather
than maximize a very finite window. You missed like you didn't.
You didn't extend anything. You're not threatening to close it
before And this again, they don't suck, they're just not
as good as a team with the best player in
basketball on the heart of his prime should be.
Speaker 2: I will say this, if there's a Michael Porter junior
trade out there along with Sigdashi, it's Saclabee Levine next
to Yokich would be just perverse.
Speaker 1: It would be perverse.
Speaker 3: I just don't know, like and then the Jamal Murray
of it all, I guess at that point it's because
you're not like, you're already sixth in offense, what is that?
Speaker 2: And then you move up you you probably move up
substantially because he's such a good score. He is so
and he's so dangerous off the ball. He gives you
the three point shooting that they sorely need the sort
of gives you the slashing. He gives you, he gets
you to the pre pro line.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there, he's an upgrade, but like at that point,
you're substituting Michael Porter Junior is giving you three point volume,
so you're kind of almost like maybe getting a little
bit more out of Zach Lvine. And there's the off
the dribble element for sure in the fall Drone. I
totally get it, but like that's all the ship Jamal Murray.
Speaker 1: Is supposed to be, do you. I know, but he's
not doing it, and like I know, look I get it.
Speaker 2: And and if I'm the Nuggets, I'm not saying that
the Syclovine trade is like gonna catapult myself into the championship.
But I do think if there's, if there is a
trade out there that would be intriguing, that's probably the one.
Speaker 3: It was the only move because you're not gonna I mean,
you just extended. You have the Aaron Gordon Jamal Murray extension,
so you can't move them. I don't think they didn't.
And then after that it's okay, these other guys have value,
Brown Watson, but they make nothing, So it's not gonna
be fixed via trade. I think the Nuggets, it's really
the Jamal Murray played better button like that? And does
that button exist anymore? Is the question? Did I oversimplify it?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I think you needed to simplify it like that because
you're right, and and I guess the broader question really is,
what the hell does this team look like?
Speaker 1: If Jamal was back to Jamal? Are like? Are they
competing for number one in the in the West? Like?
What are we? I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 3: They probably would be, which is scary. I mean, you
still have the whole bench of it all thing. It
would still be an.
Speaker 1: Issue, right man, No, it's tough.
Speaker 2: Might say, they are definitely confusing, all right, Dan, we
need to wrap up with the last two teams.
Speaker 1: So who you got?
Speaker 3: I would you knew? I was billowing in the wind
on my selection here to the point where I changed
it again. I was thinking about the Bucks. But I
think that we're kind of starting to understand that, No,
they weren't as bad as they were, and if the
offense is gonna catch up, can some of the defense
have proven to be sustainable. I'm more hopeful for them,
And I also feel like, I don't know if you're
the same. I've talked about them way too much because
of what happened in the early part of the season.
It was between the Pacers or Miami, and I'm starting
to just realize there's something going on with Indiana. But
it's also when you look at that team, you probably
could have sussed this out that, Okay, if Tyre's Haliburt
wasn't gonna be Tyre's Haliburton, if they were gonna gravitate
so far away from Tyre's Haliburt and being the center
of everything, they might always just look not so great,
and that the defense would continue to be not so great,
and that if Miles Turner regressed, the defense would be
even worse than not so great. So I'm going to
Miami here more. I'm honestly asking you, what are the
Miami Heat. I was ready to pencil them in for dead,
and look, you can still look. You could still convince
me that that's the route to go. But they're another
team where they pick up that win over I think
it was Minnesota on November tenth, and since then they're
nine to five. They have a top ten offense and
defense and just like Terry Rozier still isn't playing all
that well. But okay, Bamada Bayo, we know what he
is on defense, and the offense feels like it's starting
to tick up a little bit for him. And Tyler
hero has been mostly magnificent and we're seeing, okay, not
vintage Jimmy Butler, but you knock Jimmy Butler down like
he's still figuring it out when he's going to be available.
I don't and like and then yet you look at
this stretch moret and the only player with like the
main players with positive point differentials per game during this
stretch are bam Ada Baio just barely and then Hayward Heismith.
It's like kind of their main guys. Otherwise you're getting
into the Duncan Robinson, the Alec Burks of it all.
I don't know what to make of Miami other than
I don't trust them to do anything but date right everything.
Speaker 1: I say.
Speaker 2: So, if we agree that the Bulls were the most
confusing teams from like a direction perspective, the heat has
to be they have to be the most confusing team
from like an on court perspective. I think this year
I can't get a proper read on them at all. Like, again,
it's one of those situations like if you told me
before the season that Bam and Aebayo would be shooting,
you know, the way that he's shooting over the course
of the full season.
Speaker 1: I know he's been better of late, but like if you.
Speaker 2: Told me twenty two games into the season he'd be,
you know, sup forty five percent from the field, you know,
he wouldn't be all that efficient.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, oh, like they're in trouble.
Speaker 2: Jimmy is Jimmy. He'll figure stuff out. Like he's just
pacing himself through the regular seas done.
Speaker 3: I do think, to his credit, there was a point
where he was like kind of only flipping the fourth
quarter switch to start the year, and I think he's
starting to understand that it's not going to fly as much.
Speaker 2: But I feel like I say that every year though.
I feel like that's the thing that we well, if not,
if not every year, every other year, I feel like
we say that where it's like, Jimmy, come on, you
can't wait, like you have to play over the course
of the full game, like you have to participate again,
this is this is Miami being Miami. I'm not going
to lean into the whole, you know, heat culture thing
because I think it's bs like every team works hard
living You're not the only team in the NBA that
works hard. That's stupid. But they just have I think
it's cohesion. It's the word I was looking for. I mean,
this roster has been together, these guys have been together
for a while. They kind of know their way around
each other, they know their games. Coach bo is still around,
he's been there forever and now I feel as still
they They're like one of the few teams that can
lean in on the experience level and roll off. You know,
a ton of gwins in a row where even though
they've come out and look really ports begin the year,
they sort of ramp themselves up in some level of
like a new baseline more or less, and saying, Okay,
we might have been below that baseline before, now we're here.
That's our new that's our new floor. And then we
start off like this. It's it's kind of impressive because
a lot of teams, when they have a rough start,
they kind of say, oh, okay, well we've seen our
worst and that's really bad. That heat can sort of
identify and like close chapters, I feel like and say, Okay,
we were shitty for like ten games. Now we've rolled
off a couple of games in a row where we've
been looking pretty good. That's our new starting point, Like
that's where that's our new I'm.
Speaker 3: Wondering how much helps to It feels like they've kind
of they've dispensed with and I know availability as part
of this, but it's okay. We're gonna start Kevin Lover
Nikole Yovitch next to bam Adebayo. We're gonna have Duncan
Robbinson with Haywood high Smith and Tyler hero On Jimmy Butler.
When we're all healthy. That lineup is killing opponents. And
it took them until like the second half of November
to get to that lineup, and so you definitely figure
out some stuff there they've gotten. I mean, look, I think, hey,
what Heigh Smith's been fine, pel Larson that he's injured
right now, but like that is not a name. I
was intrigued by him. We talked about him on the Miami.
He looked ahead like he's played real minutes for them,
not necessarily something that you would have ticketed him for
at the beginning of the year. I don't I think
what my issue is and I don't know. I haven't
seen enough personally progression from jim hawkas on the offensive end,
like counting on too much of that from him, I think,
And this is now becoming a repetitive point for me,
so I don't even want to say it. I think
I still am officially at the point though, even though
they have these better vitals and we're seeing some things
turn around for them. Do you agree with the thought
process behind it being if Miami wants to be where
Miami aspires to be in this moment, they need a
new best player, Like do you view Jimmy Butler or
bam Adebayo as capable of either one being the best
player player, not I don't even say a title winner,
but a contender. Or do you think that between them,
they like the sum of the parts between them amounts
to even a fringe contender, because yes, I'm yeah, you do, Okay,
I struggle to get there now.
Speaker 1: It's look, Jimmy Butler has.
Speaker 2: Proven us all wrong so many times that I feel
as though if I'm sitting here and saying I don't.
I don't think he can get there anymore. I'm just
setting myself up. I'm setting myself up. He's that good,
And like we know what you know Jimmy Butler can
be when.
Speaker 1: He is at his best.
Speaker 2: He is the absolute best ceiling racer in the league
when he's on, and nothing in his game to me
indicates that he can't get back to that level, like
unless his body fails him.
Speaker 1: But that those are things that I.
Speaker 2: Just I can't that, Like I'm not on the Heat's
medical staff. I'm not on there, Like I don't know,
I have no idea what his body looks like. But
what I do know is that he's out there. If
he's feeling good, if he's feeling healthy, he can step
up to that level. He's done it repeatedly over the
course of the last few years when.
Speaker 1: We counted him out.
Speaker 2: So why what argument do I even have to say, No,
he can't get there anymore, like.
Speaker 1: Age, I guess.
Speaker 2: But like we've said the same thing about Lebron before,
We've said the same thing about Kevin Durand before, and
we've been kicked in the mouth whenever we've set that.
So I'm just gonna basically say, no, I'm not gonna
question Jimmy Butler to be that guy.
Speaker 3: Then what is it? Quickly, what do you view it
as what this team needs? And I'm sure, look, the
Terry rezierve of it all has definitely complicated that, because
now you want someone who's supposed to be what Terry
Rozier was to you. But it still feels like, even then,
this roster seems one significant rotation player short. And again,
maybe I'm just waiting too much of what we saw
earlier in the season, whether it was all this awkwardness,
but I even look at the rotation and some of
the guys that've turned me around again, the players that
have been performing well for them, and it just feels
like there's something significant missing here and I can't pinpoint
it other than to say, like the route to go
would be well, they need like another kind of shot
creator with size who won't submarine the defense, which is
just like such a hot hand need.
Speaker 2: Well, they need speed too, that's the thing. Yeah, it's
an older team. It's a slow team. You know, it's
a seemed that loves to operate in the half court.
They're not running a lot, They're not a quick team.
I think I think they were hoping to change shot
with Harry Rosher because Roshir can't be a rocket. At
times he hasn't been. I wonder if that's part of
the issue is when when Roshir got traded there, he
kind of said, Okay, look, I'm going to try to
learn Miami Heat basketball instead of being you know, that
firecracker he used to be in Charlotte for example, Like
I've been just appointing to see him like scale back
and only take you know, nine or ten shots per
game or whatever the number is, Like he has to
take more. He has to like when he gets a
defensive rebound, he has to just fly down the floor,
and he's not. He's looking at Spoe half the time.
This team wants to play it a little bit too
slowly for my liking. Yeah, so they if it's I
don't know if it's an internal fix or if they
need external help to come in, like in terms of
like a trade or an acquisition, someone who can come
in and basically say, yeah, we need to rush this
thing through. But they need more speed, Like Tyler Hero
is the only one right now who I feel pushes
the buttons like just forces the issue on this team,
like even Jimmy, who, well Jimmy will do it occasionally,
but like also he's he's pacing himself.
Speaker 1: Let's just be real about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, you look at this and they're dead
last in average offensive possession time after grabbing a defensive rebound,
So there needs to be I don't know if they
have the personnel to that. I guess you mentioned Tyler hero,
there's bam Atebayo, the idea of Terry Roseier. I mean,
Butler's capable of pushing more, and don't I don't know
why you look at this personnel as Miami and you're
not playing faster. Not that I think they're clearly not
super duper athletic, but when you look at there are
spacing limitations. When Terry Rozier is shooting like this, when
bam is just not like he's never been a floor spacer.
But and when Jimmy Butler is not going to be
a willing three point shooter, why wouldn't there be more
of an urgency to go up against defenses that haven't
been set. So a good call out by you on
the speed thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's ironic the most athletic player isn't really playing.
Speaker 1: Llle aware.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but how I guess I did think
that they were going to play him next to bam
Aton at some point this year, so that might be
a slightly of a big deal. They're just a team
where yeah, they're kind of an asset no man's land too,
because now you're at a point where I think a
lot of people came to view Tyler Hero as filler salary.
I never quite got there, but now he's become He's
been indispensable this year. We could just say it. Where
would they be without Tyler Hero right now?
Speaker 2: I had never bought into the fact that he was
filler's salary either. I do think there was a point
in time where it was fair to wonder what was
the ultimate potential in him? And now he's showing us
that we shouldn't have doubted him, which they loved that,
by the way.
Speaker 1: I always love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, Cooper Morehead had pointed this out too.
I think even the bigger term of events was when
he was kind of going through that rough patch and
his shot profile still wasn't reverting back to where it was.
That was a big deal because Tyler Hero's shot profile.
It's a stark change. It's not something that's got here gradually.
It's almost like we talk about Jimmy flipping a switch.
He just flipped the shot profile switch this year. And
the fact that it's holding, I think is a really
big deal. And I think that's why I got harder
to envision this is who do we view as sort
of the poster child for incremental improvement, Probably a Jalen
Brown or someone along those lines. Tyler Heroes. God just
like just got here, like just reworked his shot profile.
All the credit in the world to him, I just
don't know. I think it means a ton to this team.
I'm just when you don't have a ton of trade assets,
because you now, like what if Terrors you're worth on
the trade market? Not much, and you gave up a
pick to get him. You don't have a ton of
first rounders to trade. And we also can't really pinpoint
a specific of all the players that are gonna become
available on the trade market. Yeah, Kobe White might look
good here, like how are you getting Like, what are
you do? You have enough assets to go out and
get him? And they are just players who are gonna
wind up giving up at this point is their most
expendable salary filler. I do believe people will probably assume
it's Duncan Robinson. Has it become Terror's here just because
of the emergence of this new version of Tyler Hero.
Speaker 1: How much is guaranteed on his steal next year?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's I'm sorry, it's not partially guaranteed. It's
like fully guaranteed. It's basically ninety of the contract or
some weird number me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, see I see it here. Well, okay, so basically
it's a two year contract or a year and a
half roughly. I mean see, that's always the tricky part,
right like in a filler contract if you have another year,
because if this is the version of Terao Sheer you're
going to get, are you really willing to pay him,
you know, twenty six point five whatever million next year?
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure about that.
Speaker 2: But again, it does feel like Miami does have a
tendency to handcuff certain players who they get in.
Speaker 1: I wonder why that is.
Speaker 2: It's remember when I'm gonna take you way back and
I'm going to show my age here. But remember when
Richard Jefferson was playing for the Spurs. He basically said.
Speaker 3: I'm so young. I don't even know who that player is.
Speaker 2: He basically said, it's gonna take a year, if not
to to adjust to Pop in the Spurs system.
Speaker 1: It feels like that has.
Speaker 2: Become like the Heat story now, where it just takes
guys so long if they're coming from outside organizations where
they've been for a while, to like get acclimated to
how they're playing here. I'm not saying you should change
head coach because Spoe's brilliant. I don't want to go
that route, but I do think they need to look
themselves in the mirror and figure out how can we
streamline this process a little bit better for a guy
that we trade for. Because if we are going out
there and fork over draft picks for guys who we
want to help us win right now, and we torpedo
their own value, we torpedo their own productivity, what the
hell are we even achieving? I think that's a legitimate
question they have to ask themselves. All right, Dan, let's
close it up with the Sacramento Kings. From my perspective,
I think they're confusing.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's such a sophistic Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So there's I want to break it into
two tiers because there's the obvious concern that DeMar came
in takes a lot of like mid rain shots that
hurt their spacing. Like that's one of the obvious things
that we knew about. What we what we probably didn't
foresee was keik and Murray hitting twenty nine percent of
shots from from deep to per overall, sitting at just
twelve points per game, and seeing him take this back
seat to like dMar tod'aron Fox as the bonus. Like
I think all of us kind of assumed that DeMar
would not be perhaps as trigger happy as he's been
in Sacramento, and that Keigan would find ways more than
he's done so far to get himself involved offensively. Before
I give you the word, I will say this reddit
to Keigan Murray for becoming their best defender, also improving
his rebounding to the extent that he does that he did.
I really love to see that improvement on his side.
But like the offense, for him, that was always his
number one skill and it's probably going to be his
number one skill for the rest of his career. But
at some point the Kings have to lean into it.
Like they let him play this sort of complimentary role
for two damn long, It's time for them to empower
Egan Murray.
Speaker 3: I just how do you do that with the Because
I'm I agree with you that I'm still I'm not
shocked that he's been marginalized to some extent on offense,
but you definitely didn't expect him to shoot this poorly
to start the year. I don't like, how are you
supposed to unlock Keegan Murray with the current infrastructure that
you have. It's not just you have him the League
Monk two in addition to Marta Rosen and Domas Bonis
and Daron Fox. And another thing that's happening here which
I do think does speak to the importance of Keegan
Murray is that Sacramento is losing the three point value
by essentially three makes per one hundred possessions, which I
think given how poorly Keegan Murray and Kevin Herder have
both shot to start the year, coupled with the shots
you know Demarta Rosen wants to take and the shots
you know that Domantobonis does not take in super high volume,
A minus nine per one hundred possessions is not nothing,
but I would expect it to have been worse if
you laid out this criteria for me. I like, I
they're confusing as well to me because I don't necessary
really know what your solve is going to be. You
could definitely tell with the way that Mike Brown is
rolling out some of his lineups that even he's trying
to figure some of it out. But when you get
into if you're trying to spotlight problems, like this team
is seventh on offense, their thirteenth on defense, they have
like the biggest discrepancy between their win differential and then
their actual point differential. And that'll come back to all right, well,
look at how much time this team is spent in
the clutch, and it's it's the most, it's the second
most in the NBA behind the Charlotte Hornets. And now
they are now five and nine in those situations. And
so I found myself thinking, are they kind of just well,
his performance is for maybe not Herder normalizes because he's
actually been pretty bad ever since the twenty twenty three playoffs,
at least not the Kevin Herder that you thought you
were getting but as Keig and Murray's performance normalizes, maybe
you string together for more availability, Like we know DeMar
had missed some time. Is it's just a matter of
if other possessions had gone the Kings his way that
we're talking about, like they're not even on this list
for us. Or do you view this as more of
a wholesale issue where it's, oh, no, this team, this
team belongs here and it's not. You know, I've done
a lot about in terms of how can I upgrade
the secondary front court rotation, like get me Larry Nance
Junior on this team, or get me Dorian Phinney Smith
on this team. Do you think that the issues are
bleaker than that?
Speaker 1: I will say this.
Speaker 2: I think their issues are they tried to split the
difference and tried to be better defensively while sacrificing some
offense instead of leaning into one side of the ball.
We saw two years ago how dynamic they were when
they chose a direction. Then they started saying, oh, okay,
look we didn't you know, we had a tough seven
game series loss to go stayed in the playoffs.
Speaker 1: Let's build on this.
Speaker 2: They went from the number one offense in the league
to the thirteenth best offense in the league because they
kind of said, oh, we also want to compete defensively,
they gave up their edge.
Speaker 1: Dan. That was the problem for me. You sometimes just
have to lean into who you are are. This team
is trying to have it both ways when they don't
have the roster to do so. It's the same problem
the Lakers are facing with having a bunch of one
way guys on their roster. You cannot, as.
Speaker 2: An NBA organization, if you found your niche, pivot away
from that and just assume things are going to fall
into place. And I think that's what the Kings did.
They are talking about defense way more than they've done
in the recent years, where I'm like, guys, at best,
you're gonna make a modest defensive improvement and it's going
to cost you potentially the number one offense in the league,
which could win you more games. That's where I see
the biggest challenge being here. It's like an internal direction
and an internal compass, if you will, that's just been
out of whack. So we can sit here and talk
about whether this necessitates moves, whether there are greater issues
at hand. I think this is an organizational change that
should not have happened. Lean into the number, lean into
the offense. This was who you were.
Speaker 3: They're seven, though, like what I know they're they're in
transition less compared to last season. I think they're twenty
second in transition frequency, which I mean just any team
that has the Aaron Fox and is in the bottom
ten of transition frequency is just gonna feel super weird
to me. But like it's not when you look at
like sort of the actual frequency with which they're spinning
in it hasn't dropped off a ton. So I mean,
as of right now when we're recording this on Monday night,
in advance of games that are going to be happening,
fourteen point four percent of their plays come in transition.
That's down from sixteen percent last year. So it's the
difference between wing excuse me, ranking fifth and twenty second,
But it's not like this huge decline. And that's why
I'm sort of wondering. And I still think that this
makes your point that I find them intensely confusing, is
that it feels like this isn't a oh they need
to make a big trade. I don't know if necessarily
if you want to get into schematically like, have they
skewed too far towards trying to play both ends of
the floor. I think that's fair, But I keep coming
back to you, I don't necessarily want to be a
purveyor of optimism for a team that's this confusing, But like,
it just feels as if they get a couple of
different breaks, they're gonna be a much better team. And
we're having a different discussion. I think the mega concern
to me personally would come from, are they one not
going to do anything to deepen their rotation at the deadline.
I'm talking about like finding a seventh eighth man whatever,
they absolutely need to do that, and names I mentioned
like thrown out already should be on the radar. Or
do you think that this is just Keegan Murray in
this larger, offensive, hierarchical system. Is this now his default,
because then that is a problem.
Speaker 1: Right, that's a major issue if that's this is his default.
Speaker 2: And by the way, they're going to get better when
Devin Carter comes back.
Speaker 1: I know he's a.
Speaker 3: Rookie, he's not playing. There's just even if it comes back,
they're not relying on a rookie. I would be I saw.
I know a lot of fans were kind of thought
that he could play. I just I don't see it
me personally.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll we'll find out, Like if he's not gonna
play this year, the next year, they're gonna have an
automatic upgrade right there, because I do think that he
could be another rotation piece that you alluded to. But no, look,
we can boil this down to Keithan Murray. I think
that is fair. They have not been able to utilize
him the right way. I will also say this isn't
exclusively at the feet of Mike Brown and the coaching staff.
Keigan himself has had a little bit too much Patrick
Williams in him this year when just it comes to
like that sounded wrong, Oh my god, not what I meant.
Speaker 3: It's sounding wrong on a bunch of different levels.
Speaker 1: Actually, so it really did.
Speaker 2: But you know what I mean though, the passiveness, the
fact that he's standing there, he's really he's basically passing
up on open shots occasionally like he has to be
more aggressive.
Speaker 1: He here's the thing. He is a six.
Speaker 2: Eight two twenty five forward, who's nimble, who's got on
ball skills, who's got off ball skills. He should be
your best pluck and play player on the entire team,
Yet he is not being utilized. You're forcing the ball
through guys who you have to structure the offense around
and a very odd way to optimize their own capabilities.
Whereas the guy who's the most seamless fit of them
all and the guy you should be basically seeking out
shots for, is getting broadly ignored. That's not great. That's
on him, it's on the coaching staff, it's on everyone.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what's also been I would say an
unintended consequence of the way that they're set up, because
I think in the half court, defenses are just going
to be inherently less concerned about certain guys or if
you're gonna be okay, you have tacticians from the mid range,
awesome teams will mostly live with. That is how much
harder it seems like Keegan worry Keegan Murray needs to
work for his shots to war like there's no when
you look at what this roster needs and just relative
to the personnel, why is he taking fewer three pointers
per one hundred posessions than he was last season? There
is no explainable reason. But when you watch, it's, well,
he's not gonna beat like, this can't be someone who's
just getting catch and shoot opportunities because the way that
the Kings are built in the half court. Yeah, in transition,
different story for sure. But he's out in transition a
little bit more this season than he was last season,
as the Kings' overall transition frequency declines, and so in
the half court he almost has to work harder for
his shots because he doesn't have the same room with
which to work that he did when they have fewer
stars or just a different type of offensive setup. But
it also just feels weird to say this about a
team at ranked sixth in points scored per possession? Is
I think this relays back to why they're probably confusing though.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, because I honestly I don't give two
shits about their current offensive ranking of seventh, because when
you look at the three point shot, for example, like
they're twenty first inefficiency, they're twenty fourth in attempts. Their
affective field coal percentage, they're twelfth in the league. Like,
it's just there's so many avenues that can improve upon
where there is a pathway here for them to actually
have the best freaking offense in the league. It's right there.
It's just a matter of making the parts work. Maybe
we're looking at and make.
Speaker 3: The parts work though with the parts that are there,
because it sounds like to me what you're saying, and
please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Damar Derosen
should not be on this team then, because I don't
know how you're gonna fundamentally rework your offense unless you're saying, no,
they need to stagger the hell out of their stars.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, Okay, yes, that is absolutely what I'm saying. Well,
I'm saying two things. I'm saying that for sure, stagger
is the best way forward too. I also think about communication.
One thing we know about DeMar though, is he's not
a guy who is unwilling to listen to coaches and
listen to input. I think that this is a question of,
you know, wires being crossed in terms of expectation level,
Like you have to sit Tamar down. Perhaps it's the
All Star break, preferably sooner, but like and ask him, look,
would you be willing to take a step back for
the betterment of the team, Like you're thirty five, We're
still gonna feature you. You're still gonna play at the
end of games because we know you're a tough shot maker.
We still want you to facilitate. You're still gonna have
the ball in your hands a ton, but we're not
looking for you to take you know, those off angle,
turn around sixteen foot shots. Like He's a phenomenal playmaker,
and it feels like he hasn't really been able to
explore that a whole lot during his stay here in Sacramento.
Speaker 1: Perhaps they could sell him.
Speaker 2: Look, KEI can is the key here for you to
make a significant playoff run? Like, Lord knows he didn't
have that in Chicago. Perhaps that is.
Speaker 1: The play I almost wonder.
Speaker 3: I guess I just haven't noticed the same playmaking Stough.
There's obviously a drop and assists per minute, but you
would almost expect that. But do you have to play
him fewer minutes because Dak give you more optionality on
who you can play away from the ball, whereas Damar, like,
you can't really do a ton of that and have
him be most effective. So I that's interesting. So the
conversation could almost be you're playing fewer minutes will probably
still have you close, but like you need to lean
into more of just these more intuitive lineups than when
there's some lineups that are gonna have more talent, but
they can also be redundant on the offensive end at times.
Right that that team's confusing as hell.
Speaker 2: You're not gonna catch fight for me, right, super confusing.
I'm not really sure how you fix it. I will
say this, and credit to everyone who's been saying this,
they got the wrong bull over the course of the
of the summer. It wasn't Demard Rosa that they should
have gone for.
Speaker 3: They wanted Caruso. That's the one that you want to.
Speaker 2: See get well, then they would have lean into defense
that we couldn't have that. No, obviously, Levin Levine instead
of Demard Rosan on this team would have been.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess if you were gonna go the look
can you could do Tomorrow and Malik Munk for Aclavie there, Oh.
Speaker 1: My god, poor Tomorrow. That would be awful.
Speaker 3: Man, thank you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, that was a trip. That was the trip?
All right?
Speaker 2: So wait am I just yeah, well, let's just.
Speaker 3: Just wrap this up, right, Yeah, you could close whatever
I'm going.
Speaker 1: To close, Dan for Valley.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me on this, you know,
the the most confusing teams in the NBA tour that
we've just been on. Uh you know you' and I
be back for another episode where we're looking at a
lot of trades. We'll be recording that in the coming days,
but this is out first. You're obviously the co host
along with Grand Hughes at the Heartwood Knocks.
Speaker 1: Tell the good people listening in where they can find
your works.
Speaker 3: You already said it hard one knocks well exactly as
it sounds. Come check us out, great man.
Speaker 1: Everyone who listened in, thank you for doing so. And
until we talk again, stay safe and enjoy yourself.
Speaker 2: Want