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You'll see all the ways that you can 13 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:24,959 support me there. And I just want to thank everyone. 14 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:27,480 It's because of you that I can put out the 15 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,879 amount of material that I do. I can do what 16 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,760 I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two hundred Years Together 17 00:01:34,359 --> 00:01:36,719 and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are 18 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:39,799 doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all because of you. 19 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:43,400 And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank 20 00:01:43,439 --> 00:01:48,120 you enough. So thank you. The pekan Yonashow dot com. 21 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:52,680 Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the 22 00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:57,200 Pekan Yona show. Thomas is back and we are going 23 00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:01,280 to conclude on the Thirty Years War. 24 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: So I'm going, well, thanks for hosting me. There's a 25 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,560 significance that I emphasize within the any study of the 26 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:18,639 conflict that may differ from what others might. I said 27 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,400 at the outset, I wasn't going to make this a 28 00:02:20,479 --> 00:02:28,560 deep treatment or discussion of Pike and Shot military methods 29 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:35,800 or of the early modern period generally first and foremost, 30 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:39,400 as I think any revisionist is. You know, I I'm 31 00:02:39,439 --> 00:02:43,520 a political theorist. I'm not a historian, so I always 32 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:50,479 fall on the conceptual side of things. There's a running discussion, 33 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,919 and obviously people in the continental tradition differ from people 34 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,960 in both the analytic tradition as well as people who 35 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,840 favor a more progressive view of historical processes. And only 36 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,000 progressives has been people who read the Washington Post and 37 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:18,759 you know can't pee correctly. I mean, you know, people 38 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,759 used to be considered in sort of the Whig historicist tradition. 39 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,719 You know, obviously if you fall on that side of things, 40 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,439 you're gonna view the conceptual lens that people came to 41 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:40,800 frame the conflict and subsequent political development. It's being a 42 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,319 sort of self fulfilling prophecy. People develop certain conceptual biases 43 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:50,919 owing to the nature of sectarian combat and then extrapolated 44 00:03:52,280 --> 00:04:01,159 those epistomic priors to all subsequent inflict iterations where the 45 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:06,080 primary diad was sectarian or what have you. I think 46 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,199 that's the wrong way to look at it. After the 47 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:17,800 collapse of the Roman Empire, there was this ongoing tension 48 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:30,519 within Christiandom between perspectives, one of which was primarily Latin, 49 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,040 then one of which was primarily Germanic and broad strokes. 50 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:41,720 I'm talking about the way things were conceptually devised within 51 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:48,879 respective cultural minds. I'm not talking racially or something. And 52 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:54,160 I believe this culminated on the continent. Sectarianism is a 53 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,480 bit different In Britain. This culminated on the continent with 54 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,959 the thirty years of War and the sectarian conflict diad generally, 55 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,319 and this wasn't really resolved, I don't think until Bismarck. 56 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:16,000 And I think it was largely by necessity, and it 57 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:22,879 was the fact of Europe becoming a Europe becoming a 58 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,800 true global power into itself that was on the cusp 59 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:33,639 of overcoming the warring States phase of its political development 60 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:41,399 and entering the world stage in a way that had 61 00:05:41,399 --> 00:05:49,199 been unthinkable in prior epochs. And obviously that power political 62 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:57,399 affairs within that truly global schema, within velt politique was 63 00:05:57,439 --> 00:06:02,040 existentially menacing in a way that was very binary, and 64 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,160 obviously that's what allowed the sectarian divide de finally to 65 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:13,560 overcome those kinds of existential realities. That's what always allows 66 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,319 for sectarian divisions if you overcome either one side annihilates 67 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:25,240 the other or as resolved. Okay, not to wing this off, 68 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:33,120 I know, a tangential discussion, but that's what's allowing the 69 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:35,920 sectarian rift to heal in Northern Ireland. I believe it 70 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,279 was the existential threat posed by the occupation regime that 71 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:46,680 they're trying to ethnically cleanse, you know, white Christians. You know, 72 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:56,319 you have you have an existential threat that subjugates all 73 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:04,439 other conflict paradigms to the critical imperatives emergent they're in. 74 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:13,759 And uh, this isn't just Monday morning quarterbacking as it were. 75 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:24,199 If you read you know, historical accounts from the era, 76 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,920 and the testimony had declares who where participants to the 77 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:37,800 events in the media aftermath of Westphalia. You can tell 78 00:07:37,839 --> 00:07:43,600 what's what's coded into their conceptual horizon culturally, is this 79 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:50,279 sort of post Roman understanding on one side or the 80 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:55,319 other of the nature of authority and where it derides. 81 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:00,560 I mean, and this isn't just a key a cherry 82 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:07,000 picking either, because I'm anticipating that they'll be. One of 83 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:15,000 the claims presented in Rebuttal. There was an all encompassing 84 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,879 intensity to the Thirty Years War that tended towards both 85 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:24,480 myth making in military and political terms, but also tended 86 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:31,480 to characterize discourse conceptually, just because how could it not. 87 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,600 There is a parallel between it and the Second World 88 00:08:36,639 --> 00:08:45,440 War and its destructiveness, but also its formative it's ontologically 89 00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:53,720 formative aspects, you know. And we talked I think the 90 00:08:53,960 --> 00:09:03,080 last time, and if memory serves, there was a this 91 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,440 These same considerations were on the minds of people in 92 00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:12,600 Britain also, I mean, don't get me wrong, there there 93 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:18,399 were English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish mercenaries who participated in the 94 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,919 conflict directly, even though the respected kingdoms from that they 95 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:30,480 go home weren't engaged as formal combatants. But it and 96 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:40,919 in terms of the reigning political horizon. This was as 97 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:48,240 much characteristic and essential capacities in Britain as it wasn't 98 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,639 the continent. And that's suggestive of a matter of apocal 99 00:09:53,799 --> 00:10:02,799 or historical significance, not just something derivative of, you know, 100 00:10:02,919 --> 00:10:10,200 the subjective impressions of accidental observers. This idea too, of 101 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:18,679 the need of a secular sovereign, not in the colloquial sense, 102 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,799 but in the conventional literal definition of it to act 103 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:36,559 as arbiter between ambitious factions and sectarian motivations. That didn't 104 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,960 somehow spontaneously emerge with Hobbes. I mean, the real genius 105 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:52,320 of Hobbes was some of his musings on the symbolic 106 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:59,279 psychological aspects of state craft and the relationship of man 107 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:05,960 as individual contra the sovereign, and how that relationship is 108 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:13,919 primarily psychological, it's not grounded in material quantities. I mean, 109 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,279 there's a hop stands it was an intellectual giant for 110 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:24,879 all kinds of reasons. I'm not suggesting otherwise, but this 111 00:11:25,039 --> 00:11:30,480 idea that he was the one man who understood that 112 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:36,759 there was a profound existential aspect to the new politics, 113 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:43,919 and that the military aspect of that was becoming unmanageable 114 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:52,799 unless some sort of Leviathan agent that enjoyed universal legitimacy 115 00:11:53,080 --> 00:12:01,679 could establish dominion over it with the requisite will to 116 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:09,120 brutality that would be so required. And I don't think 117 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:20,559 that's deniable, but there's obviously all these things shook people's 118 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:25,720 understandings of the well well of what constitutes the state's 119 00:12:25,759 --> 00:12:29,720 legitimacy and where where it derived from? What what is 120 00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:35,440 the ultimate source of authority and the way people talked 121 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:50,639 about that changed precipitously after Westphilium. It, but it also 122 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:58,360 the framing device of it, even though the concrete particulars 123 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,159 were different, and the way power was understood and its 124 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:14,000 potentialities were understood couldn't have been more extreme as it were, 125 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:22,200 or pronounced or severe, But the conception of people being 126 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,879 situated as regards state craft in what amounts to a 127 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:34,000 post Roman world and attempting to determine what the ideal 128 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,000 state is within realistic parameters, and more significantly, what its 129 00:13:38,039 --> 00:13:44,000 relationship is to ethical considerations and how it can reconcile 130 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:52,960 its own legitimacy contra you know, God's dominion and ultimate 131 00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:03,120 authority of God over man. That that's what that that 132 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,039 that oh do. What I mentioned that the onset of 133 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:17,759 this discussion was competing understandings of sovereign authority and the 134 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:25,559 pious man's the Christian man's relationship to these things. You know, 135 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,120 Christian Saint Paul's the Pauline view literally as authority comes 136 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,600 from God only and alone. But the authorities that hold 137 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:41,799 sway are of God's ordinance, even if they're even if 138 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:47,320 they're evil men. You know, a magistrate, whether it doesn't, 139 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,519 it's not as if he's acting outside of the purview 140 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,799 of God or outside of the authority of God, even 141 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:08,639 if he acts against Christian principles, you know, and man 142 00:15:08,679 --> 00:15:14,320 does have a duty to obey the laws of the polity, 143 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,519 so long as that polity itself is not patently illegitimate. 144 00:15:23,519 --> 00:15:29,120 There's a lot that's written on this extrinsic descripture. Obviously 145 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,200 that's something that's interesting contract Islam because obviously within the Quran, 146 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:41,879 there's a great deal written about what a pious Moslem 147 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,559 owes to secular authorities and what the discrete parameters are 148 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:56,440 within you know, the legitimacy of a secular office. Christianity 149 00:15:56,519 --> 00:16:01,960 is more complicated than Islam metaphysically, and otherwise I'm not 150 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:13,399 saying that pejoratively. It's just a fact. But nevertheless, you 151 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:19,000 know that the issue was far from settled. Even when 152 00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:26,919 Europe could properly be said to have been Christianized, which 153 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:32,960 I think people follow me of probably gleaned that I 154 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:42,080 essentially accept Spangler's timeline. We can talk about Christiandom existing 155 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:48,639 and approximately one thousand AD. I realized that as early 156 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:56,200 as the fourth century AD, European peoples were converting to 157 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:05,880 Christianity in substantial numbers. But even after the Roman Empire 158 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:11,920 was ashes or you think of as the majority of 159 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,640 civilized Europe, it still had a Latin stamp on it 160 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,200 in terms of the languages people spoke, in terms of 161 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,559 their cultural and wars, in terms of their leal codes, 162 00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:25,960 in terms of their habits, the foods they ate, and 163 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:31,880 most significantly our discussion, their view of government, and a 164 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:42,039 lot of people's, particularly in Europe Central and a disportionate 165 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:52,119 number of them Germanic, their commitment to Christiandom was probably nominal. 166 00:17:53,880 --> 00:18:01,000 The Niceen creed came about by necessity, okay, because the 167 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:06,480 arian heresy not ariyan arian ar i a n that 168 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:16,799 had become endemic because a lot of in part because 169 00:18:16,839 --> 00:18:19,440 a lot of missionaries were willing to accept the nominal 170 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:29,119 obedience or a sort of ceremonial acceptance of formal protocols 171 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,559 and things. And if these people remained basically pagan and 172 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,519 rejected the divinity of the Christ, so be it. That's 173 00:18:39,519 --> 00:18:44,279 why this came about. And this endured for centuries. People 174 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:53,640 forget that, you know, it was well into what we'd 175 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,680 think of as the Later Middle Ages. There were crusades 176 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:04,920 being waged against European Pagans. This didn't just go away. 177 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,559 But even among the pious Germanics, they had a very 178 00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:18,960 different concept of where authority comes from. This was exacerbated 179 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:28,279 by pagan influences, obviously, but that wasn't the essential aspect 180 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:36,119 of it, or the soul approximate cause. Even that the way, 181 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,559 the even the way these things are framed in the 182 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,279 some of the Pauline letters and the early Church Fathers 183 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,599 characterizing the Roman state as diabolical or demonic, I mean 184 00:19:51,640 --> 00:20:03,559 that that was true. But to some Germanic Yalemen, who 185 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:09,319 until a few generations back had been worshiping the tribal 186 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,000 gods and things, you know, in his mind, how how 187 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:21,599 could authority be diabolical. You know, authority comes from an 188 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:28,039 ascending source. It doesn't descend from the emperor. It's validated 189 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:36,000 by you know, bonds of blood and soil, and by 190 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:45,160 shared affinity for the same God. So to such a man, 191 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:55,839 these controversies would seem to be either totally irrational and incomprehensible, 192 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:01,880 or a sort of exercise in in in logic games 193 00:21:02,319 --> 00:21:11,839 almost like mathematics on a purely theoretical level. That doesn't 194 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:23,559 directly translate to either recognizing or rejecting a belief in 195 00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:33,000 the divine origin of political authority, but it does force 196 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:44,119 the question as to what possible obligation would a subject 197 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:50,559 people have to an emperor who doesn't speak their language, 198 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:59,880 who doesn't practice their ways, who claims nominally to worse 199 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:10,480 the same God, but whose iconography and liturgical aspects are 200 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,880 totally alien to the congregant in question. U this said, 201 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,559 a lot of this is the source of the schism 202 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,200 between Protestant sex and the Roman Church. At least if 203 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:33,720 we're talking about Lutherans, especially and Reformed there's probably a 204 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,599 more cultural aspect to the former and political conceptual aspect 205 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,200 that's paramount to the latter. But I don't think that 206 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:54,680 can be denied, you know. And I read, uh, there's 207 00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:00,880 this really interesting book. It's an it's I read it 208 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,039 my first year in law school, not because it was 209 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,640 a sign or anything. They don't they don't deal with 210 00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:11,960 complex legal theory in law school, at least not at 211 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,680 like a shit law school like I went to. But 212 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:23,839 I this was before you could download, you know, PDFs 213 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:28,400 for free and stuff. So I'd haunt the library and 214 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:32,960 the law library of John Marshall. We shared the library 215 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,559 with the Chicago Bar Associations, who was actually a really 216 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:40,200 good library. And I found an Oxford History of Western 217 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,440 Legal Theory. Now because it was written by an Oxford guy. 218 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,720 The first edition in the fifties or something, and the 219 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:54,279 body of it had substantially, at least in southern of terms, 220 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:59,240 you know, endured through seven subsequent editions or whatever. He 221 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:02,160 makes much of what he views as the sort of 222 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:10,359 civic mythology of the Federalist papers. I disagree with some 223 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,119 qualifications on that take. He objected to all kinds of things, 224 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,240 but a particular particular interest to me was the critique 225 00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:23,519 he levied against Hamilton and John Jay Because Tory types 226 00:24:23,559 --> 00:24:25,799 tend to be more favorable to Hamilton and j for 227 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,599 reasons that I think aren't mysterious. You know, Hamilton opposed 228 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:35,319 the kundification of a written constitution at all, and he 229 00:24:35,519 --> 00:24:43,079 essentially viewed he viewed constitutional government as some happy medium 230 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:50,079 between republican and monarchist tendencies. He viewed the president United 231 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,160 States is basically an elected monarch. For those that don't know, 232 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,720 I'm not trying to be pedantic. A lot of people 233 00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:59,680 don't know about the controversies of the founding Father. That 234 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,599 doesn't make you stupid or not educated or something. It's there. 235 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:10,240 It's it's very complicated. But Hamilton and j they both 236 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:20,880 wrote about the fact that the legitimacy crisis of the 237 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,640 King of England it largely derived from the fact they 238 00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:28,000 basically viewed it as emergent from the time of the 239 00:25:28,079 --> 00:25:36,519 Norman conquest because Germanic people were subjugated by Latin overlords 240 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:50,839 who were linguistically, culturally and culturally different and who practiced 241 00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:59,319 a totally different religion for all practical purposes, and the 242 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:07,000 American was angle Saxon m reclaiming their political rights as 243 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:15,839 a discreete folk and Germanic people elect their kings. You know, 244 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:25,160 the nobles decide who's the king, and you know, the 245 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,720 King of England in the in the handlet in JV 246 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:34,599 reading when the lines, has essentially made himself a pope 247 00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:40,799 and an emperor. And that's the stilled essence of tyranny. 248 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:47,480 And it's also uh a deep, a deeply heretical posture. 249 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:56,519 So the American Revolution was a Germanic revolt in substantial measure, 250 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:04,640 at least in political terms, I guess Latin oppression, and 251 00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:12,440 worse than that by a Latin, a Latinized king who 252 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,559 has also made himself a pupe. So there's two layers 253 00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:26,160 there of tyranny and illegitimacy. And I'm the first to 254 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,200 stipulate there's there's many Americas. You know, people recommend the 255 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,480 book a lot Albion's Seed in our quarters, at least 256 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,599 a lot of the southern guys do, and a lot 257 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:46,440 of the northern guys who have heritage American roots and things. 258 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,200 And it's not a bad book. And I agree in 259 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:59,640 the substantial measure with the basic anthropology that lays out culturally. 260 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,039 But it's complicated, I believe, and I intend to write 261 00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:10,799 on this moving forward. I believe that the war between 262 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:15,200 the States and the War three Kingdoms. There was a 263 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,480 cause of relationship there, and I think the War three 264 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:19,519 Kingdoms in the Thirty Years War there was a cause 265 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:25,160 of relationship there. And the American Revolution and the War 266 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,480 of in the States. There was a sectarian aspect of both, 267 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:41,279 and there is myriad nuances there. But I himil and 268 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:48,279 and j also weren't wrong, you know, And this was 269 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,079 this really endured until the twentieth century, even and it 270 00:28:54,119 --> 00:29:01,559 whether't the laws cause historians or something you'd have. You know, 271 00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:05,160 you have guys like Lothrop Stoddard talking about, you know, 272 00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:11,079 the Angle Saxon character of America. You had European progressives 273 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,240 on both sides. You had Marxists and national socialists talking 274 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,440 that way. This was a real thing, Okay. I mean 275 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:21,480 whether and at some point in these things are going 276 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:24,559 to self fulfilling prophecy. I mean, don't get me wrong. 277 00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:27,799 I don't think this was an imagined or confabulated identity 278 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,160 or phenomenon. But even if it was, well, if you're 279 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,319 building a new political culture that's based entirely on the 280 00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:44,079 rejection of the British crown, that's got certain implications. And E. 281 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,359 Michael Jones. I mean, doctor Jones is a good dude, 282 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:51,079 you know, and he was nice enough to come on 283 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,559 the Mind Phaser pod that we had a good talk 284 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,119 with on and off the record, you know, like we 285 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:02,960 were talking about. I mean, he overstates his case and 286 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,279 I love the guy, but I think he's got a 287 00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:08,319 persecution complex of a sort, like a lot of our 288 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,799 big city Irish friends do. But he's not wrong that 289 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,599 America is probably the most anti Catholic country it ever existed, 290 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,440 other than the UK. And that doesn't that that doesn't 291 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,440 come from nowhere, and it doesn't it doesn't just emerge 292 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,839 because we're all a bunch of crazy, you know, Holy 293 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,720 roller Taliban types who want to be mean to Catholics. 294 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,119 I mean, yeah, I'm sure to this day you find 295 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,599 some people who are just bigoted because they've got weird ideas. 296 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,359 But there's a deep, doc triantle and philosophical objection to 297 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,000 Roman Catholicism in this country, and it comes from exactly 298 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,240 what we're talking about. It's deeply audentitarian, you know. And 299 00:30:55,599 --> 00:30:59,960 if you want to parallel, I'm always making the point 300 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,759 because I think it's relevant. It's a director of buddle 301 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:08,359 to a postulate of court historians beginning with uh William 302 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,160 Shier and and and then during to the present, there's 303 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,519 this and it's not just crazy zion As who say this. 304 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,000 There's this mythology and this canard that well, you know, 305 00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:22,319 the National Socialist Party there was a bunch of Catholics 306 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,680 who are emulating Roman Catholic uh rights and rituals and 307 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,079 and trying to secularize the faith. And you know it 308 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,839 was they were a bunch of reactionaries who were angry 309 00:31:36,839 --> 00:31:40,480 at the modern world, and they were just cloaking the 310 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:46,000 cityology and the trappings of secular racialism. Okay, the the 311 00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:55,480 National Sources heartland was the Protestant, rural and semi rural north. Okay, 312 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:02,319 the uh I mean obviously Munich and Arenberg. They they 313 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,240 had a deep and sacred significance to the movement, and 314 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,680 they had a court. They had a hardcore of partisan, 315 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:14,039 pootable soldiers there. But in the electoral map, if you're 316 00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:16,960 talking about if you're talking about the National Socialist heartland, 317 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,240 you're you're talking about the Protestant and norrific Germany. And 318 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,279 that makes perfect sense, Okay. I mean, one of the 319 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,599 one of the reasons why Hitler was an unusual personage. 320 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:36,920 He was this Habsburg Catholic who identified in his within 321 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,759 within within his program, he identified the the New Germany 322 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:44,400 as the legacy of the Prussian state. And uh he 323 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,400 had the support of both a bunch of Catholic yunkers 324 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,039 and a bunch of Swabians and and and and Prussian officers. 325 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,839 And meanwhile there was this Protestant yaloemanry who were his 326 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,240 most dedicated followers. Like that shouldn't make sense, but that's 327 00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:06,359 why it worked in terms of an electoral coalition, and 328 00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:09,599 there literally was a Catholic Party and the Catholic Center 329 00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:13,519 Party at real clouds the story after people act like, 330 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,920 I don't want to spend this off in a discussion 331 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,599 of what's wrong with court history on the National sois 332 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,160 revolution and things. But there's also this claim that, oh, well, well, well, 333 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,400 first of all, they claim that that the Reichstag arson 334 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,240 was was a false flag, and that's ridiculous because it's 335 00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:41,960 I mean, it's it's it's preposterous beyondbelief, Okay, But the 336 00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:46,359 claim is also oh and then after that, you know, 337 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:51,519 the KPD was banned, so there was nobody to challenge 338 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160 National Socialists, the National sources plurality, which was now a 339 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,279 wrong majority in the Reichstag. That's totally a odds of 340 00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:04,400 the reality. And Hitler had to basically make concessions to 341 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:08,000 the Catholic Center Party because that's so much power they had, 342 00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:16,000 you know, I mean, it makes perfect sense, but I 343 00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:23,960 believe the German Pietus tradition and in Protestant isn't generally different. 344 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:29,159 As I'm the first to acknowledge and advocate for the 345 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,280 reality because I think a lot of Catholic partisans deliberately 346 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,679 ignore this. There's profound differences between pros and sex. There's 347 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,360 not this thing called Protestantism or or a Protestant church. 348 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:51,320 But one of the commonalities is the emphasis on the congregation, 349 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:59,719 not just in terms of ecclesiastical governance and function, but 350 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:04,840 congregation is the basis of communitarian life, and mumanitarian life 351 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:11,719 is the is the basis of you know, the the 352 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,239 the the congregation of Christ. You know, so without it 353 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:23,480 and without those communitarian aspects, you know, the christ uh 354 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:30,320 Church on Earth isn't realizable. That's why you know, Nimrod 355 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,960 was a was a was It was a very bad man. 356 00:35:33,639 --> 00:35:36,679 That's just because he you know, he was a tyrant. 357 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,239 But the whole, the whole story of the of the 358 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:43,239 Tower of Babel Nimrod. Not only did he say that 359 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,159 he could build a tower to the heavens, say he 360 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:50,400 could become a god himself, but he said that it 361 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,239 was incorrect for there to be discrete races and ethnicities 362 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,800 and languages. So he's gonna wipe all that away. I mean, 363 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,679 if he's if that's your posi, you're against God. You're 364 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,039 saying creation is incorrect. And the and the way that 365 00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:09,639 people are incorrect, you know, and that's lost in the shuffle. 366 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:13,800 I mean, people who lie about scripture lie with all 367 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,880 kinds of things, but that's that's one of their talking points. 368 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,519 That's one of the ways, you know, they don't actually 369 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:24,519 read scripture. Ever. You know, this idea that it's incorrect 370 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:29,000 for people to have a congregational affinity for their own kind, 371 00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:31,880 or to develop communitarian bonds or on a shared heritage, 372 00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:36,760 that's the essence of Christianity. But because it may and 373 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,880 don't get me wrong, obviously, the Romancaellen Church takes congregationalism 374 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,519 serious league. That's why liturgies are delivered in local languages 375 00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:49,880 and stuff. But it's a different thing. There's not even 376 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:55,400 within the same confession. You'll find Reformed churches that are very, 377 00:36:55,519 --> 00:36:58,119 very very different from each other. I mean that's the 378 00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:01,079 big criticism that Roman k like, so actually are thinking 379 00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:04,440 people have is you know, where so there there's got 380 00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:08,599 to be some sort of you know, final authority on doctrine. 381 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,320 And obviously to us, you know, I mean it's it's 382 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,519 it's so lessperature with uh you know, and and uh 383 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:20,280 institution of the Christian religion is uh, you know, there's 384 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:27,079 people's idea that Calvin is don't take extrinsic authorities. Seriously, 385 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:30,719 it's not true. Obviously you should read the early Church 386 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,440 Fathers and you know you should read Calvin. But uh, 387 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,000 you know that the point being that in uh, in 388 00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:44,280 the view of people and in the view of the 389 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,679 Roman Confession, the Roman Calic Confession, there's a built in 390 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:57,599 schism or schismatic tendency to you know, Lutheranism or Reformed theology. 391 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:05,639 But because it may the among Lutherans, this idea of 392 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,639 Pietism and the inner witness is the ultimate you know, 393 00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,039 the the inner witness brings you to Christ. And also 394 00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:22,880 that's the that's both the the arbiter of acts of 395 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:34,119 conscience and the source of pious impulses. But that also 396 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:42,480 is uh, you know, deeply personal in a way that's 397 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,599 historically coded. And I think, I don't I don't think 398 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:50,920 that's mysterious. And what I mean, you know, so this 399 00:38:51,079 --> 00:38:55,079 idea of this sort of pious commitment, this congregationalism, you know, 400 00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:58,239 a pious commitment to the inner witness and a sort 401 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:04,599 of shared understanding of the source of you know, moral 402 00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:10,400 learning being that inner witness among a community of uh, 403 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:20,360 you know, confessional agreement deriving from those aforementioned principles, you know. 404 00:39:20,599 --> 00:39:25,440 I Uh, that's inextricably bound up with a kind of 405 00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:38,679 very Germanic uh patriotism that's strongly racialized, potentially particularly under 406 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:51,960 conditions of existential conflict, actual or emergent. And that's uh, 407 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,800 you know, the the culter comp that that term doesn't origine. 408 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,960 People think that term originated in the Inner Warriors or something, 409 00:40:03,079 --> 00:40:09,239 or that it described the reaction against the gross immorality 410 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,440 of Weimar. It didn't. I mean, it's used in all 411 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,840 kinds of capacities, and it's not a malaprophism. I mean 412 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,280 it literally means culture struggle. But it came about owing 413 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:27,599 to Ah the you know, at post unification, it referred 414 00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:36,719 to the you know, tendency of the ruling house of 415 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:44,559 Holmes learned to pursue a policy of of of nkeadly sectarian, 416 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,800 how much an aity in government. You know. Like I said, 417 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,159 I don't know if this is true or not, but 418 00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:56,880 Wilhelm's supposing Wilhelm's wife wouldn't even let Catholics in our house, 419 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:07,159 you know. And these culture comp tendencies didn't come about 420 00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:21,039 because Prussians were so strongly sectarian that they just couldn't abide, 421 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:32,400 you know, anything suggesting a true power sharing arrangement with 422 00:41:32,519 --> 00:41:38,840 the Roman Catholics. It's because Prussianism and Pious Lutheranism is 423 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:49,360 so they're inextricably bound up. One can't be divorced from 424 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,239 the other. If you're talking about Prussianism, you're talking about 425 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:58,039 pious Lutheranism, and you know, and they were talking about 426 00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:05,920 national socialism, you're you're talking about uh a uh Prussian 427 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,199 ethos that was presided over again by a Habsburg Catholic 428 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:22,719 who uh was very uh it was very much uh 429 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,000 of that heritage. You know. People forget to Hitler was 430 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,519 I don't know exactly how it breaks down in Europe 431 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,760 in terms of the education system before, like in the 432 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,840 days the half for Empire and things. But what I 433 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,239 do know is that Hitler was raised by seminarians in 434 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,159 his education, you know, until he went to uh Into, 435 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,920 until he went to high school. Very equivalent, you know. 436 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,440 It is is his early teachers were all priests, and 437 00:42:54,599 --> 00:43:00,639 uh the church was the center of community in life. 438 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,519 What I'm getting is that Hitler wasn't just nominally Catholic. 439 00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:08,800 He was very Catholic, you know, culturally, if not in 440 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:20,599 terms of his interconfessional belief structure. But you know this ultimately, 441 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:30,159 I think this touches and concerns every aspect of conceptual 442 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:41,000 political life from I don't know, the murder Ringian era 443 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:50,480 until ninety forty five. This idea of concentrated authority within 444 00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:58,239 a ruling element or sovereign and the emerging complexity or 445 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,920 the shifting shifting of the verbial sands within the excellent 446 00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:08,039 paradigm causes that sovereign or that ruling element to have 447 00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:13,239 to divise away. There's a status legitimacy or assert its power, 448 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:24,880 and that's rationalized on grounds of descending authority ordained by 449 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:32,280 the Christian God. You know that that whole narrative is 450 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,280 inescapable and not just that, but I think it's just 451 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:44,079 positive and what developed and even in America, that's that's 452 00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:47,639 what informs this myth of the imperial executive and this 453 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:57,360 idea that the constant vigilance is required to preclude such 454 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:03,239 a thing from emerging, you know. And the Thirty Years 455 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:10,440 War was such a catastrophic culmination of these factors that 456 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:25,480 even if people rejected the you know, suggested the mutability 457 00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:30,039 of that paradigm that I'm describing, it became a self 458 00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:35,039 fulfilling prophecy regardless, you know. And that's the significance of 459 00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:38,159 the Thirty Years War. And that's the core essence of why. 460 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,719 I mean, it's such a huge topic, you know, and 461 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,280 I think it's imperative that this stuff be discussed. And 462 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,320 I did the best I could with this series, you know, 463 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,519 But I can only speak from my own base of 464 00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:59,079 knowledge and expertise. And I'm not I mean, I'm not. 465 00:45:59,119 --> 00:46:01,599 I'm not in military guy, I even look at me, obviously, 466 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,320 but I and I think I know something about I mean, 467 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,639 I know I know something about you know, modern warfare 468 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,519 and game theory and you know, the very the relevant 469 00:46:13,519 --> 00:46:19,760 inputs and variables, particularly as regards twentieth century conflict paradigms 470 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,800 and stuff. But I don't I'm not a military historian, 471 00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:29,679 and I'm not one of these people who I'm not 472 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,639 like a documentarian historian either, where I try and identify 473 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:39,039 every aspect of a historical phenomena or paradigm and then 474 00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:43,840 weave those discrete variables into a sort of pastiche that 475 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,920 can convey a true understanding of the epoch, you know, 476 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,239 ideal in concepts. I'm a playable theorist, so I'm always 477 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:58,079 gonna fall on the side of what's arguably you know 478 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:06,960 more we are an under emphasis on and more abstract 479 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:17,760 and symbolically psychological aspects of the subject matter. But that's 480 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,639 all I got in a thirty years war. I realized 481 00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:21,760 I haven't been going a full hour, But I, uh, 482 00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:25,719 I apologize for that. It is what it is. 483 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: Oh, it's all good, it's all good. We'll we'll get together, 484 00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:34,079 we'll get together over the next couple of days and 485 00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:36,679 figure out, well, we already know what the next series 486 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,039 is going to be, so we'll uh schedule that. 487 00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:43,320 Speaker 2: Out and yeah, that'd be great. Man, yep. 488 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,119 Speaker 1: And I'll remind people to go over to Thomas's substack 489 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,400 that's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com, 490 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,320 or to go to uh Thomas seven seven seven dot 491 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,119 com where the T is a seven. You can connect 492 00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,320 with them there, go support them on subs stack. And yeah, Thomas, 493 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:08,239 thank you. This was uh And I think I I 494 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,400 think one or two people asked for this series, but 495 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,320 it was definitely something I wanted to do. So, you know, 496 00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:18,079 I just want to thank you personally than you're welcome. 497 00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 2: Thank thanks for hosting me. And I want to think 498 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,039 of this so for their their feedback and their kind compliments. 499 00:48:25,079 --> 00:48:27,960 I really appreciate that. And I mean feedback is essential 500 00:48:28,639 --> 00:48:33,320 because I I mean, it really is, otherwise I don't 501 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,079 know if I'm doing my job. But and plus I 502 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,079 also want to I always want to cover things that 503 00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:43,320 people find interesting. You know that obviously, you know, I 504 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,320 mean it's a prerequisite that it's got to be something 505 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,679 that I know about and I can speak on I'm 506 00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:53,480 with some meaningful expertise, but no, and people have have 507 00:48:53,519 --> 00:48:57,320 been very nice and in praising this series, and I 508 00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,280 really appreciate that. 509 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:26,119 Speaker 1: All right, So it's staend a couple of days thank you,