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Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the

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Federalist and your experience ship on today's quest for Knowledge.

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As always, you can email the show at radio at

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the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST,

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make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and

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of course to the premium version of our website as well.

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Our guest today is John Birsch, director of Appellate Advocacy

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for Alliance Defending Freedom. We discuss the upcoming Supreme Court term.

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The US Supreme Court term a lot of interesting things

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on the way, is expected to take up several hot

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button issues, including state bans on the participation by male

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athletes insisting they are females on women's and girls sports teams,

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voting rights cases coming up, more on religion, our first

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Fundamental Freedoms, campaign, finance laws, and the death penalty, among

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many others. Before adjourning for their summer recess, the Justices

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had granted review of thirty two cases. More to come

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certainly in John, thank you so much for joining us

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on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour and giving

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us a little insight, a little perspective on what's to come.

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Speaker 2: My pleasure. I'm delighted to be here.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. As I said, we say this every term. I

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think we've been saying with more insistency and urgency over

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the last few years, because there really have been some

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remarkable landmark cases. What do you think, in your estimation

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is I don't want to say the most important, because

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cases vary in importance for different people, for different perspectives,

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but as it relates to fundamental principal founding principles, I

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should say, what do you think are the most important

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cases facing this court in this next term?

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Speaker 3: Well, I may be a little biased on this because

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I'm going to point to three of ours, two of

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which involved the same issue. The first pair of cases

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that the Court will hear in January, Heecox and BPJ,

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from Idaho and West Virginia, involve state efforts to ensure

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that women's sports remain for female athletes, and this is

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an issue that has rocked the country over the last

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several years, with famously a man who identifies as a

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woman participating in and winning an NCAA swimming championship and

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beating two former Olympian women swimmers in the process. Twenty

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seven state have passed laws similar to the ones that

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we have in West Virginia and Idaho, and the Trump

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administration has taken that same position. The NCAA and international

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I'm sorry, American US Olympic Committee have done the same.

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So that's a big one. But there's another one that

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I think that's also important culturally and legally, both because

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of the breath of the impact that I'll have and

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also the free speech implications, and that's Chiles versus Salazar,

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which is a case that will be heard in October

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on October seventh, involving a Colorado law, which, like twenty

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two other states and one hundred local jurisdictions around the country,

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says to a professional counselor that if you want to

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help a minor become trands, you're welcome to do that.

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Speaker 2: You've got our blessing.

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Speaker 3: But if the miner and his or her parents want

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to grow comfortable with their body and not start down

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the process of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery,

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if the counselor assists in that process, they can lose

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their professional license. So I would put my thing an

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those cases and then maybe back up one moment too.

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And you know you've said that in the last several

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terms have been so many big cases. Why is it

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do we have such a huge volume of culture defining cases.

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Speaker 2: Up at the court right now?

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Speaker 3: And that may be because we're not seeing much from

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Congress over that period of time. If Congress had simply

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legislated the sports issue or made clear that counselors could

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have free conversations with their clients without local or state interference,

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you know, then maybe we don't end up with these

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observed cases where the federal circuits say that that states

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can't protect women sports under the Eqal Protection claus or

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Title nine. So I think that the more we continue

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to see Congress not acting and the only really you know,

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legislation put that in quotes that come out of Washington

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are from the President's pen and executive orders, the more

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contentious litigation will find its way to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, in my humble opinion, Congress as absolutely

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abdicated its responsibility, its duty to legislate, and it has

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done so because there isn't a good deal of courage

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in Congress. And I don't care what side of the

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aisle you are on, and certainly if you are a conservative,

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there hasn't been a good deal of courage on the

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right side of the isle. And I put this in

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contemporary context, in tragic, horrifying context. If members of Congress

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on the right had anywhere near the kind of courage

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that Turning Point founder Charlie Kirk had, yes, they would

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probably face some more threats to their life and property,

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but these sorts of things would not have to be

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battled out in the court of last resort. What do

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you think of.

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Speaker 3: That, amen, is what I say to that. I think

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that's exactly right. And this really crystallized for me after

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the Dobs ruling. You sticking with the Republican conservative side

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of the aisle, because that's what you noted. You know,

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for years they talked boldly about protecting innocent on more

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in life, how the dignity of all life has to

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be upheld. But then where did they go when Dobs

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came around and all of a sudden there was an

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opportunity for legislators at the state level, for people in

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Congress to actually do something about that and put their

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money where their mouth was.

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Speaker 2: They were happy to talk the talk.

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Speaker 3: But not walk the walk, and whether it's in the

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pro life space, whether it's in the gender ideology space,

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whether it's in many many other areas of the law

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that we could be talking about.

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Speaker 2: It takes courage to stand up and do the right thing.

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Speaker 3: But if we want a democracy to flourish and not

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watch our country devolve into the rule of one person

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and then nine elected justices thumbing up or thumbing down

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each executive order, Congress needs to do more.

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Speaker 2: There's no question about.

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Speaker 1: That, Agris, and I think we know Trump administration. The

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President has done the heavy lifting on all of these

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different areas.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh yes, I mean on this gender ideology.

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Speaker 3: As you get right out of the gate declaring with

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an executive order that there are only two sexes, male

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and female. Well, we shouldn't need an executive order to

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establish that. That should be common sense. But to the

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extent that that common sense is going to be rejected

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by a minority of the country, which it has been,

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then Congress needs to step in and act and make

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that clear.

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Speaker 1: The executive orders. As you well know, as the Supreme

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Court knows, the subject to change. Obviously, there were a

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lot of members on the left who didn't think Joe

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Biden's executive orders should be reversed or removed. But there

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are a lot of people on the right in two

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thousand and early twenty twenty one who didn't believe that

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Donald Trump's executive orders should be reversed or removed. But

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that is the reality, and that is the absolute true

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power of the executive branch to change executive orders, to

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get rid of executive orders, amplify them, or remove them altogether.

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That's what we're dealing with. And so the Supreme Court

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ultimately has to deal with these sorts of things back

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to the Charlie Kirk issue, but just for one moment. Courage,

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of course, as I alluded to before, requires people to

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stand up during very hostile times. These are indeed very

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hostile times. It is clear, and I talked to you

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at the Alliance Defending Freedom because you're on the forefront

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of this. It is what we have seen and what

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we know so far from the assassination of Charlie Kirk

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is that he died not only for urging and encouraging

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and using First Amendment rights. He died because he was

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a Christian who talked about Christian principles. You do a

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lot of work in this area, but that's got to

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be scary for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole news of the assassination really hit Alliance

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Defending Freedom Herd as an organization because Charlie and Turning

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Point USA our clients of ADF We've defended them on

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various campuses where campus officials refused to let them speak,

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refuse to allow them to have big venues, shutted them

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off to small, insignificant venues where fewer students could attend,

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demanded exorbitant security fees so that those types of events

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can go forward, and even prevented students from forming Turning

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Point USA groups because they thought that they were too controversial,

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even though other groups on the other side of the

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polit spectrum we're freely allowed to not only form, but

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take student fee money to put on their programming and

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things like that. So we have a very close relationship

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with the organization and a lot of what Charlie was doing,

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especially in recent years as he leaned into his Christianity

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and his faith in Jesus Christ. And that's what we

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do at Alliance Defending Freedom. We are not apologetic. We

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are a Christian legal organization our mission is to keep

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the doors open for the.

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Speaker 2: Spread of the Gospel.

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Speaker 3: And although we don't typically engage in the type of

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debate format that Charlie did.

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Speaker 2: If we do a debate, it's usually one.

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Speaker 3: On one with a professor or a professional, And when

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we do a lot of other speaking to large crowds,

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that doesn't involve debate at all.

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Speaker 2: Although we're happy to take questions and things like.

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Speaker 1: That as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's right in the.

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Speaker 3: Court system too, but even on campuses talking about the

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exact same issues that Charlie.

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Speaker 2: Is talking about.

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Speaker 3: That our bodies are sex male and female. God made

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them intentionally. That's something that needs to be respected because

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you can't separate the person from the body. We are

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integrated bodies and souls. That there's a certain plan for

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treating the body, whether that be in the gender identity

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context or the sexuality context. Certain things that are good

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for human flourishing and certain things that will harm human beings,

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and so we talk openly and freely about all those things.

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And so we feel like we're in the crosshairs and

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so we're looking at more security and things like that,

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but at the same time, we're not going to stop

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speaking those messages that Charlie was speaking, because it's too

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important to the people in the United States, both individually

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and collectively, to hear the truth on the most important.

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Speaker 2: Cultural issues of the day.

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Speaker 3: And so we'll boldly walk into the wind, and we'll

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lean on our faith in Jesus Christ and continue doing

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that work.

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Speaker 1: Ay Man, God bless you for that very important mission.

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I want to ask you about Alliance Defending Freedom. I've

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written a lot of late First Amendment issues. Now we

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take for granted the First Amendment because we know countries

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around the world don't have a First Amendment. Western nations

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have freedom of speech built into their constitutions or laws.

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But we've seen this, particularly from Alliance Defending Freedom International.

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You have been on the front lines of the battle

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closing down free speech in places like the United Kingdom,

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where it is getting egregious. Now heard, that is what

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we've heard from the left over the last several days is, oh,

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my goodness, teachers are being teachers, and airline pilots and

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even a member of the US Secret Service. Their First

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Amendment rights are being closed down. They're being cut off

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because simply because they cheered on the assassination of a

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conservative leader on their Facebook page or their Instagram page,

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whatever social media they're using. What did you think about

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that argument that they're trying to make an essence, as

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I see it, they're trying to make the argument that

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cheering on assassination, political assassination murder equates to free speech

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and there shouldn't be any consequences in their lives, particularly

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on the employment side.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's pretty rich that they're making this

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argument after ten years since Obergefel was decided back in

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twenty fifteen. Anytime that any Christian or Conservative talked in

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a loving way about God's plan for marriage and about

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the human body and how those teachings lead to human flourishing,

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they've been shouted down and told that that was hate

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speech and that they had no place in the public square,

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no matter how lovingly those messages were expressed, including many

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of the messages that Charlie Kirk expressed on campuses. And

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now here they are cheering on and actually inciting violence,

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which we know is not First Amendment protected, and now

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they're claiming that they're the ones whose First Amendment rights

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are being violated. I just think that's rich and hypocritical.

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I think anybody should be free to speak their views

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in a nonviolent way, and that's certainly the goal that

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we pursue.

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Speaker 2: It's what we protect in the courts.

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Speaker 3: That anybody is free to it to speak their views.

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And I will protect the right of anyone to say

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whatever they want, even if I disagree with it. If

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they do it in a civil way, that's actually constructive

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to dialogue. But when you're inciting and celebrating violence, you've

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crossed a line. No one should be allowed to do that,

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And if there are consequences when people engage in that

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type of bad behavior, then those are consequences that they

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should be ready to accept.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about the media's role in say

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to say that, corporate media in general. It's been headline

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after headline in the Washington Post, the New York Times,

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the Guardian, the leftist news organization in the aforementioned United Kingdom.

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They're painting this narrative that free speech is somehow being

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quashed through these disciplinary actions and firings of people who

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are once again praising and celebrating the assassination of a

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thirty one year old conservative civil rights leader.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we need to recognize that those corporate

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media organizations are in the pocket of the progressive left,

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and they have been for a long time. And when

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Charlie was alive, and he would speak the truth about

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the human body, for example, saying that you can't change

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your sex as man or woman, that that's a gift

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that should be embraced, and that the medical science around

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the world demonstrates that encouraging some one to try to

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change their body to align with how they feel instead

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of to adjust their feelings with the reality of their

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body is harmful to them and that the medical consequences

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can be catastrophic. So for years the media said, well,

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that was hate speech, that that speech itself was violent

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and it must be shut down. And now that he's

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been assassinated and people are celebrating that they're upset. The

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media are upset when people are castigating those who are

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celebrating and cheering on assassination. So I don't think we

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can take those media outlets seriously because they take inconsistent

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positions and they always cheer for the same side.

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Speaker 2: If they took a pre.

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Speaker 3: England where people are being arrested not even for speaking

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out loud, but for simply praying silently on public sidewalks

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outside pregnancy, I'm sorry, outside of abortion clinics, like some

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of ADF's clients. That tells you everything you need to

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know about the state of free speech in the UK

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and the fact that the media doesn't see anything.

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Speaker 2: Wrong with that.

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Speaker 3: It tells you how perverted their morals have gotten over

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the years, and that they're no longer institutions that can

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be trusted. That's why podcasts and websites and blogs and

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substacks and other things that speak the truth on these

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issues have become so popular and mainstream media has fallen

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out of such disfavor. They can't be trusted to just

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be journalists.

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Speaker 4: Are young people really going into debt to impress?

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Speaker 5: The watch Dot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski

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every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and

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the economy and how it affects your wallet.

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Speaker 4: Apparently the ticket to attention for young people is going

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into debt to impress others by things like clothes and

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shoes two and five gen zers admid to going into

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debt to impress. That'll get you into some trouble.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street.

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It's affecting you financially.

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Speaker 5: Be informed. Check out the watch Dot on Wall Street

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podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you

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get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right. I wish only wish that

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people voters would remember that fact. I think more of

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them are paying more attention today than they ever did.

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So many simply are not. They're getting their information from

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these sources, media outlets, as you say, in the pockets

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of the leftist movement, the Democratic Party in this country.

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Our guest today is John Birch, director of appellate Advocacy

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for Alliance Defending Freedom. ADF has a number of cases,

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very important cases coming up as we talk about the

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upcoming term of the Supreme Court of the United States.

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Let's drill into West Virginia versus. The official case name

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is West Virginia versus bp J. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: That is correct?

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Speaker 3: And then the companion case in Idaho is Little versus

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Heacock's that's right.

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Speaker 1: And really what this comes down to is a case

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that involves a fourteen year old. Again, let's put this

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in perspective, a teenager who has had begun to receive

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puberty blockers and hormone therapy and all of the usual

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mutilation of the teenage body sort of stuff that is

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being practiced in the name of healthy medicine and science.

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That individual is seeking to be able to compete on

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a girls' sports team or girls sports teams at the

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middle school level. The US Court of Appeals for the

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Fourth Circuit ruled, I believe it was last year that

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West Virginia's ban violates Title nine, and that ban in

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West Virginia is a ban on males participating in email sports.

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Title nine, of course, a federal law prohibiting sex discrimination

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and educational programs and activities that receive federal funding. Because

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the argument from those on the trans movement side is

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that it discriminates against the student based on sex. Americans

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are clearly on the side of no, we don't want men,

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we don't want boys participating in women's and girls' sports,

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and West Virginia passed a law on this. Where do

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you see this case ultimately going. You'll be making your

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arguments soon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the pair of cases will be heard in January.

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Speaker 3: And just to be perfectly clear about this, the Heacocks

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case involves very similar issues involving the equal protection clause.

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Idaho has a nearly identical law on Idaho and West

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Virginia are two of twenty seven states that passed versions

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of Alliance Defending Freedom's Model Save Women's Sports bill. But

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in the Idaho case, it's a male athlete who is

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already in college, well passed puberty, never took puberty blocking drugs.

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And the ACLU is pushing both of these cases. And

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so you might see in some of the media reports, oh,

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you know, this is just about pre puberty students who

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want to compete in middle school and what's best for them.

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Well that's not the case at all. The ACLU wants

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nothing less than to totally revolutionize sports so that any

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boy or man, no matter what age they are, has

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the ability to opt in to women's sports. And all

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you have to do is look at the fourth Circuit

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and ninth Circuits reasoning to see just how any common

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sense kind of falls away from these things. As you mentioned,

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Title nine has been in place for about half a century,

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and we all understand that its express purpose was to

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create more opportunities for women in sports. It was to

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allow for women only sports teams so that females would

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not have to compete against males who, on average are

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generally bigger, stronger, faster, more agile, you know, et cetera.

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It's not a fair competition. Everybody knows that. And so

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what the Fourth Circuit said in BPJ is that preserving

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women's sports for females is actually sex discrimination under Title nine.

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Because BPJ, although his you know, this is the Fourth

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Circuits words, his sex was assigned male at birth, has

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now taken puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and so

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functionally that that makes him athletically comparable to a female athlete,

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and it's sex discrimination to treat a trans woman differently.

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Speaker 2: Than as cis woman.

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Speaker 3: That's just a complete turning of Title nine on its head,

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because you go from protecting women and making sure that

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only female are participating in women's sports to allowing any

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male who can show that they're comparable in some way.

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And the ruling wouldn't be limited to someone who is

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on puberty blockers. What if they were taking another medication

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that slightly diminished their athletic abilities. What if they were

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a boy who was less athletically gifted on average.

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Speaker 2: Than other boys.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a million reasons why you could say

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that any individual boy might have some comparability to a girl,

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but that still doesn't make them female.

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Speaker 2: And so in the.

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Speaker 1: Foot that's all, that's all part of the false equivalency

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on the left with this issue in many others, is

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it not?

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Speaker 2: It is absolutely that's the false equivalency.

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Speaker 3: And so the bottom line of the Fourth Circuit ruling

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is that in the Fourth Circuit you can only assign

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sports teams based on someone's self professed gender identity, they're hipwith,

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and their fat distribution. And you can imagine how many

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girls are going to be excited about showing up for

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basketball tryouts and being asked for their hit measurements and

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where their.

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Speaker 2: Fat is distributed.

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Speaker 1: Lordy.

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Speaker 3: But the Fourth Circuit says that's what Title nine requires,

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not just that a state can do that, but a

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state must do that. They can't have a women's team

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that's reserved solely for female athletes. And the Ninth Circuit

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decision in Heacocks is just as bizarre.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 2: They say it's all.

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Speaker 3: About circulating testosterone, and of course even people who suppress

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their testosterone very frequently aren't able to do it. Three

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quarters of them won't be able to diminish their testosterone

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very much. Of the males you try to do that,

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a quarter of them won't be able to do it

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at all. And even when circulating testosterone is suppressed after puberty,

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the male advantages from going through puberty, stronger bones, taller,

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you know, different kinds of muscles and things like that,

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those all prevail. The Ninth Circuit says that the Equal

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Protection I'm sorry, yeah, the Eco Protection Clause, enacted in

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eighteen sixty eight, requires schools to assign teams based on

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circulating testosterone instead of sex.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I know that. The post Civil War Congress,

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what they were most concerned about was the version and

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trans movement of eighteen sixty seven, and they saw that

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as the pressling civil rights movement of their time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, of course, I jest.

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Speaker 1: But that's the ridiculousness of the ninth and fourth that

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you're talking about here.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly.

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Speaker 3: And then one last practical point that I want to

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make about BPJ, because he is now a high school freshman,

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and you know, the contention from the beginning again was

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that well, because he was on puberty blockers and then

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later cross sex hormones, somehow that makes him comparable to

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the female athletes, and so he should be able to

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compete as a girl or as a woman. Well, the

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reality was that even through middle school, BPJ, even while

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on puberty blockers, had a male body that was starting

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to grow and develop that pushed his athletic abilities much

435
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faster than any of the other girls. And so in

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these field events, like the throwing events, where strength is

437
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really important, he quickly displaced teammates. And so you know,

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there was one female teammate and she was supposed to

439
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go to the conference meet, but she was knocked out

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of her spot because BPJ, a boy, took it instead,

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and he displaced hundreds of girls in competitions, and as

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a freshman in high school finished top three in the

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state in these field events, even though he was competing

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against much older girls seniors and juniors in high school,

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and beat many many others. And so you go back

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and you look at the science, and it's clear that

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even pre puberty boys have a modest advantage over girls

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when it comes to these various athletic traits, and having

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puberty blockers or suppressing testosterone does not fully compensate for

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the differences between male and female bodies.

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Speaker 2: It just doesn't.

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Speaker 3: And tragically, on top of all this, that same teammate,

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her initials are AC, who in middle school was displaced

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from a state or a conference opportunity to participate by BPJ,

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has also been sexually harassed by BPJ in some of

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the most despicable words that you can imagine in middle

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school are ever saying something that I will not repeat

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here on this podcast. And so to suggest that somehow

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Title nine requires all this, the diminuition, the exclusion, the

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displacement of women and girls in sports is ludicrous.

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Speaker 1: And again, how is that equality? Which is a movement,

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of course, that had its roots other than the Marxist

463
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trying to glom onto it for political empower uses. Equality

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had its roots in you know, Christian principles, in Judeo

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Christian faith. How is that equality? It is absolutely the

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left's version, perverse version of equity, that's for sure. But

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I remember taking all kinds of heat for writing an

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investigative piece. This was years ago, about some women who

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were involved in the sort of mountain biking, off road

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racing on mountain bicycles, and all of a sudden they

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were experiencing trans people men who you know, thought they

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were women allowed to compete in their sports. And in

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one particular incident, you had a man who is masquerading

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as a woman in this sport who all of a sudden,

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who you know, who competed toward the back of success

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on the male side of things, was on the podium

477
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in the women's side of things, and they were under

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the women who were competing that the real women who

479
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were competing this, we were understandably upset. So I looked

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into this, investigated it was a real problem, and I

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just kept hearing from people, well, that's you know, that's

482
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,759
a big that's transphobic, and all of these sorts of things.

483
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,240
But the America can people have watched this, They've watched

484
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,559
this on their own children's teams over and over again.

485
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,359
This is an eighty twenty issue which has nothing. Ultimately,

486
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,599
I shouldn't say nothing, but an popular issue doesn't impact

487
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,400
the law. The law is the law, and that's what

488
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,400
you're arguing here is the law is on the side

489
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,079
of West Virginia and Idaho.

490
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 3: Law correct absolutely, and it recognizes the common sense principle

491
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,200
that states under Title nin and the Equal Protection Clause.

492
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,799
Speaker 2: Have the ability to preserve.

493
00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: Fairness and competition as well as safety in women's sports

494
00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:47,720
for female athletes alone. And you mentioned that the off

495
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:51,759
road biking. You can give example after example of this.

496
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:53,920
I'm just looking now at the opening brief that we

497
00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:55,039
just filed on Friday.

498
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:56,079
Speaker 2: In the Heacock's case.

499
00:29:57,079 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: In Washington State, a male high school track athlete who

500
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,079
identify as a girl went back to back state titles

501
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,480
in the four hundred meter dash. In Oregon, a male

502
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,440
high school athlete who identified as a girl took first

503
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,039
place in the two hundred meter and four hundred meter

504
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,319
races at the Portland Interscholastic League Championship, eight seconds ahead

505
00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:17,640
of female competitors in the four hundred meters. In New Hampshire,

506
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,839
a male high school track athlete who identified as a

507
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,960
girl won two state high jump championships and a state

508
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:26,319
championship for girls indoor track. In Canada, there's a male

509
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,200
high school triple jump participant who identified as a girl

510
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,400
won the Ontario Relays invitation by eight feet over the

511
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,160
female competitors. And I can go on and on and

512
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,680
on with these examples. What they show is exactly what

513
00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:44,519
common sense would predict that when you allow people to

514
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:49,240
participate in athletics based on their self professed subjective identity

515
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,359
rather than limiting them to male and female teams based

516
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,880
on sex. The girls are going to lose.

517
00:30:55,799 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: All the time.

518
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that should be again self evident, as our

519
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:07,440
rights should be self evident. But they are perpetually under

520
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:10,160
threat as we have seen this again. This is a

521
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,599
big case that we're talking about, but it's certainly not

522
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,920
the only case that you in particular are dealing with.

523
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:22,440
It's going to be a very robust docket coming up,

524
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,759
but you know, you're dealing with, you know, all kinds

525
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:31,920
of issues, particularly faith issues. Let's talk a little bit

526
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,359
more about that. And not to say that this whole

527
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:39,480
you know battle in West Virginia and Idaho aren't involved

528
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,240
in faith issues, but oh sure there are there are

529
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:46,920
some some you know, faith issues on the line once

530
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,039
again this session.

531
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about Kayleie Child.

532
00:31:50,519 --> 00:31:53,839
Speaker 3: She's the counselor in Colorado who brought the reinforcement lawsuit

533
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,559
to challenge the counseling censorship that's happening in Colorado and

534
00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:01,880
so many other states. And her counseling is motivated by

535
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,160
her Christian beliefs and she wants to help clients who

536
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:10,200
predominantly are a Christian because they seek her out precisely

537
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:13,799
because she provides the counseling that they want, which is

538
00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:17,160
going to be based in biblical principles and what God's

539
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,519
plan is for flourishing of the human body. And the

540
00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:25,759
sad reality is that in Colorado and these many other

541
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:29,519
states and local jurisdictions, if you have a young person

542
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,279
and they've transitioned to another gender and now they want

543
00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:36,160
to de transition, they cannot get professional help to make

544
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,680
that change because counselors will lose their professional license. If

545
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,680
you have a minor child who's experiencing genderdice for you

546
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,640
and they desperately want to get comfortable with their body

547
00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:52,000
rather than pursue medical intervention, which again the science overwhelmingly

548
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:54,279
supports that that's the best way to do it is

549
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:57,279
to have counseling and change the mind and the feelings,

550
00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:00,680
not to change the body they in their parents can't

551
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,519
go to a counselor and get that counseling because the

552
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:08,160
councilor could lose their license. It's just an abomination and

553
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:09,559
it's so one sided.

554
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely is. And as you say it, is

555
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:19,920
a battle in Colorado which over the family members who

556
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,720
will tell you that over the last couple of decades

557
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,240
plus it has gone from at the very least a

558
00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:31,880
libertarian state into a far leftist bash you although people

559
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,559
are fighting back, but this isn't just Colorado. This is

560
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:40,960
happening in states and local jurisdictions all over the country.

561
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:47,279
So ultimately, if you folks win this case, this isn't

562
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:51,400
just a matter for Colorado, correct, this is a matter.

563
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, this will change twenty three states and one hundred

564
00:33:55,160 --> 00:34:00,759
local jurisdictions policies overnight, and it will also re establish

565
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:05,200
an important free speech principle that no matter the context,

566
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:07,920
you know, even in a context like this one where

567
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,599
it involves counseling, the government is not allowed to step

568
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,840
in and in not only content based but viewpoint based

569
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,679
ways insist that only its viewpoint can be expressed to

570
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,159
the exclusion of all others. Just to use an example

571
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,000
that the left should appreciate, you could have had the

572
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:32,880
same dialogue thirty years ago if states had prohibited counselors

573
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,400
from talking to minors about having same sex attractions and

574
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,880
having same sex relationships, those could have been banned. Well,

575
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:45,400
we don't allow professionals to have their free speech impacted

576
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,360
that way by government officials, because these are private, voluntary,

577
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,519
free conversations that are happening between these counseling patients and

578
00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:58,400
their counselors with their parents' permission and approval and blessing.

579
00:34:58,719 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: And the last thing we want.

580
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 3: Are government bureaucrats picking their sides of any particular issue

581
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,400
and putting themselves in that same room and saying, Nope,

582
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,320
you can't say that. Nope, you can't say that. Oh

583
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,599
you can say that, I like that, say more of that. Oh, Nope,

584
00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:13,760
you can't say that. That's exactly what Colorado and these

585
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,519
other states are doing when they try to enforce these

586
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:17,960
counseling censorship laws.

587
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:21,559
Speaker 1: How does the left and the government square what you

588
00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:24,599
just said, You could not do this on the other

589
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,079
side of this issue, if you will, You could not

590
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:34,920
block a counselor from talking to someone about his or

591
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,239
her homosexuality or whatever the case may be. How do

592
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,320
they square this on the other side.

593
00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:44,519
Speaker 2: They have not squared that point. The primary.

594
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 3: Move that they've made is to say, look, this is

595
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,559
part of medical treatment, medical practice. States get to heavily

596
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,360
regulate medical practice. Look at what the Supreme Court just

597
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,880
said last term in Scremetti, and this type of counseling

598
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,599
is dangerous and therefore we want to prohibit it. They

599
00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:07,760
call it conversion therapy, which is to scare people into

600
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,440
thinking about, you know, shock treatment and other things that

601
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,480
may have happened decades ago when someone was trying to

602
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:17,119
avoid same sex attractions that no one anywhere is advocating for.

603
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,119
And it's not happening anywhere that I'm aware of in

604
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:21,159
the United States. If that was happening, I'm sure they

605
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:24,199
would be pointing to it. But even on the science,

606
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,800
they're absolutely wrong on this. The studies show that anywhere

607
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,480
between eighty to ninety five percent of young people who

608
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:35,159
experience gender dysphor you will naturally desist if they're not

609
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,039
affirmed in their gender identity. And to say that that

610
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:41,679
eighty five to ninety or eighty to ninety five percent

611
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,039
of the minor population shouldn't be allowed to get counseling

612
00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:47,639
to help them achieve that very positive outcome that they

613
00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:50,119
can live comfortably with their bodies, that they won't have

614
00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:52,360
to have surgery, that they won't be on drugs the

615
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,880
rest of their life, that they won't lose their fertility,

616
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,559
that they won't lose their capacity to engage in sexual relations,

617
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,760
that they can't even get that unseling is just a

618
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,400
horrible message to send to parents and kids, to families everywhere.

619
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:08,480
And then, you know what we know from the science

620
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:11,159
that was presented in SCURMETI. We know that the long

621
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,320
term outcomes for the kids who end up on these

622
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,400
drugs and have the surgeries are not good, that they're

623
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,719
not helping people. And yet in Colorado and these other states,

624
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,239
it's only a one way road. You have to be

625
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,800
trans you can't get comfortable with your body, and we're

626
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,920
not going to allow any counselor to try to encourage

627
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,440
you to do that.

628
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,119
Speaker 1: That's not only illegal, it's immoral. I mean sad.

629
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,199
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it shows a total lack of compassion for

630
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,400
families who are absolutely suffering from this difficult issue. You know,

631
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:49,280
there are a lot of reasons that the rate of

632
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,679
depression and anxiety among our young people has skyrocketed. The

633
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,360
way that the government handled COVID is a big part

634
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,159
of that. All the school shootings and things like the

635
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,880
Charlie kirkist that's part of it. The demise of churches

636
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,199
and families is all a part of that, but certainly

637
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,239
the government stepping in and constantly driving families towards solutions

638
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,079
that harm them instead of help them, that force kids

639
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:21,119
to be trans that force you know, the abortion issue,

640
00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:25,440
on students in schools even without parental permission, These secret

641
00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:30,559
transition cases where public school officials are socially transitioning kids

642
00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:34,400
at school without their parents consenting to that or even

643
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,320
being made aware of it, often keeping it hidden from them.

644
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,039
These are all things that are just absolutely killing our kids.

645
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:43,679
And you know, to say that it's immoral is one

646
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,760
hundred percent true, but really isn't even a strong enough

647
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,119
word to describe how diabolical these types of laws and

648
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:51,960
policies are.

649
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:59,639
Speaker 1: What does the Court's decision in Scurmeti portend for these

650
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:00,920
cases we're talking about.

651
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,639
Speaker 3: I think it portends well for all three of these

652
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:08,239
cases that we've been focused on. In the case of

653
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,119
the athletes, the key point there is just because a

654
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:16,360
law talks about something in terms of sex, which was

655
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,000
necessary in the Billin Scrimmetti, is necessary in these save

656
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:23,920
women's sports bills, doesn't mean that it's sex discrimination. That

657
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,519
you can make distinctions based on biology, which is what

658
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:30,960
the Scrimetti bill did. It's what the bills in Idaho

659
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,440
and West Virginia do that don't even require heightened scrutiny

660
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,199
as a sex differentiator. You keep in mind that BPJ

661
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,480
and Hcock's the plainff athletes in both those cases, they're

662
00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:47,159
not actually seeking the end of sports teams assigned based

663
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:49,880
on sex. They don't want to eliminate boys and girls teams.

664
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:54,880
What they want to do is redefine what female or

665
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,079
women's sports means by including certain boys.

666
00:39:58,760 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 2: Who fit their character.

667
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: And if you follow the Scrimeti template, that's the kind

668
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,360
of regulation that should receive rational basis review, not even

669
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,400
heightened scrutiny, much less strict scrutiny, and so then the

670
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:17,000
law easily passes. In the case of Kayley, the Scurmeti

671
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,000
decision doesn't have as direct an impact because, after all,

672
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,440
this is a free speech case, not an equal protection case.

673
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:26,519
But the science that was presented by Tennessee and Alabama,

674
00:40:26,559 --> 00:40:28,880
and it's ANIKI brief, and many of the doctors and

675
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,159
MEIKI briefs, it was so compelling about the need for

676
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:35,239
this type of counseling, about the benefits that it can

677
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,639
provide to young people about the dangers of encouraging child

678
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,079
to transition and then take drugs and then have the

679
00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:44,960
surgery that I think the optics around the free speech

680
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,239
issue look even stronger. And it's notable that Colorado and

681
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,320
coming forward with its best evidence, has not been able

682
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,039
to point to a single study, not one that merely

683
00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:58,119
talking to a counselor about these issues as a minor

684
00:40:58,360 --> 00:40:59,199
causes any harm.

685
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: Final question for you as it relates to all of this,

686
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:06,719
and I ask this in the context of Charlie Kirk.

687
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,920
I asked this in the context of the threats against

688
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:17,239
Justice Kavanaugh and others. Are you concerned that another term

689
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:24,639
brings the potential for more violence against Supreme Corps members,

690
00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:27,280
particularly conservatives who hold the majority.

691
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, of course I'm concerned about that.

692
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: You know, all we have to do is look at

693
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:36,599
the last twenty four months or so of these types

694
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:40,000
of events taking place, and I think it's easy to

695
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:42,760
predict that there could be more attempts, whether that's on justices,

696
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,760
on lawyers, on public advocates like Charlie, on the president,

697
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,559
on members of Congress, you know, And that's what's scary

698
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:55,880
because when violence rears its head like that. In a

699
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,719
free culture like ours, where you can be punished simply

700
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,639
for expressing ideas or being on the wrong side of

701
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:05,360
a political or legal question, the natural thing for people

702
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,000
to do is to be fearful and get out of

703
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:09,800
the public square.

704
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: And I will not blame a single person who does that.

705
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: You know, Anybody who's married, has children, has grandchildren like

706
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:20,199
I do, should take seriously their safety because they've got

707
00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:23,320
commitments to their family and God wants them to keep those.

708
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,400
At the same time, if all people of goodwill, with

709
00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:30,960
truthful messages that will help our culture and individuals flourish,

710
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,679
step out of the public square and stop advocating because

711
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,840
of fear, then things will get much worse and much

712
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,360
more quickly than if they stay in the fight. And

713
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,920
so I hope people do that. And you know, as

714
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,800
another example of that, I'm going to point to another

715
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,280
adf case that we've got coming up just very quickly,

716
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,880
first Choice, and this involves network of pregnancy resource centers

717
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,840
in New Jersey who are being persecuted by the New

718
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,960
Jersey Attorney General, you know, and this is a perfect

719
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,079
example of an organization. A CEO who stood up in

720
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:05,880
the face of all kinds of threats. We know pregnancy

721
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,559
resource centers are being firebombed and graffitied and attacked all

722
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:12,000
across the country, and she had the courage to stand

723
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:14,639
up to the Attorney General who has the temerity to

724
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,320
demand all of their top donors and their contact information,

725
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,639
which we know is unconstitutional under Americans for Prosperity.

726
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: We know that's unconstitutional as well from what the ku

727
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,639
Klux Klan was doing to the black civil rights movement

728
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:31,039
in this world.

729
00:43:31,199 --> 00:43:31,679
Speaker 2: Exactly.

730
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, AAFP built on the NAACP case. So he's demanding

731
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,960
these under the pretense that people who give to pro

732
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,440
life pregnancy centers may have been fooled into thinking that

733
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,440
they provided abortions when they really don't.

734
00:43:46,159 --> 00:43:47,159
Speaker 2: No one thinks that.

735
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: And his goal has been to keep this matter in

736
00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:53,960
state court. And why would he care about that? Well,

737
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,039
because in New Jersey, like in some states, all of

738
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,440
the judges, the state court judges in New Jersey are

739
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,039
appointed by the pro choice governor's supported by the pro

740
00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:08,880
choice Attorney General in advancing this persecution against pregnancy centers.

741
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,199
The Attorney General openly admitted that he's collaborating with Planned

742
00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:17,840
Parenthood to affect this. So the whole Supreme Court battle

743
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,639
there is whether the federal courts should be deciding the

744
00:44:21,639 --> 00:44:25,239
constitutional rights of the pregnancy centers vis a vis these

745
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,199
investigative subpoenas that have been served for all their donor

746
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,320
information and lots of other documents and nonsense. And the

747
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:36,760
federal courts below lacked courage to say, yes, these are

748
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,320
federal constitutional issues.

749
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: They're ripe. There's clearly standing.

750
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 3: This is not an issue where the danger is unpredictable

751
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,920
and far off in the future. It's imminent, it's present,

752
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,400
it's happening right now. They've already chilled their speech, but

753
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,039
they didn't have the courage to say, no, we're going

754
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:55,039
to take this issue and we're going to apply cases

755
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:59,840
like the NAACP and Americans for Prosperity to save these

756
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,159
ignancy resource centers from this persecution.

757
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,639
Speaker 2: We're just going to let it work out in the

758
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:04,519
state courts and then.

759
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll see if there's anything left at the end

760
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,320
of it that's not covered by race Jutakata.

761
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: You know, just.

762
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: In miniature, it shows the political persecution, It shows the

763
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,639
courage and conviction of someone standing up, and it shows

764
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,440
how the legal system is being twisted to try to

765
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,519
obtain outcomes that clearly violate the Constitution.

766
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: Well beyond all of that, I hope that New Jersey

767
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,880
voters have the courage to release the new Jersey Attorney

768
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,920
General from the job. You would certainly hope, So I

769
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,119
hope voters do that up and down the line, for

770
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,880
a lot of elected officials in that state, vote them

771
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,760
out of office. That that is the kind of courage

772
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,199
I want to see across this country. We shall see.

773
00:45:57,199 --> 00:45:59,880
The midterms will be here before you know it. But

774
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,320
we know this by the history of this exceptional republic.

775
00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:09,280
Defining times or very often dangerous times, and these are

776
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,440
the times in which we live. Thanks to my guest today,

777
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:18,840
John Birsch, director of Appellate Advocacy for Alliance Defending Freedom,

778
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,000
you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.

779
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,199
I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll

780
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,440
be back soon with more. Until then, stay, lovers of

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00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,880
freedom and anxious for the frame.

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00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: Heard the famevoice a reason they