WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:08.599 There were sightings and the story spread. People gathered around 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.640 the lake to search for the monster. Newspapers carry the 4 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:15.199 story around the world. A fifty thousand dollars prize was 5 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:18.239 offered to anyone who could kill or capture the beast. 6 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:21.280 And all of this a half century before NeSSI would 7 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:23.280 have become the world's most famous lake monster right here 8 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.039 in America. The Story of Champ. 9 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:31.280 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 10 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:34.920 A giant, hairy creature. 11 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:36.880 Part eight party masts. 12 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:41.119 In Luckness, a twenty four mile long, bottomless lake in 13 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:42.280 the Highlands of Scotland. 14 00:00:42.600 --> 00:01:07.959 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. MONSTERTA. 15 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:12.439 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 16 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.879 Blake Smith and in this episode Ben Radford and I 17 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.480 will talk with sociologist and author Robert Bartholomew about his 18 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.599 new book, The Untold Story of Champ. You may think 19 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:24.040 you know all about Champ, but I learned several interesting 20 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:26.640 bits of information in this episode, and hopefully you will too. 21 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:29.640 Robert takes us on a very thorough journey through the 22 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.000 history of Champ. Sightings on that through modern times and 23 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:36.000 draw some interesting conclusions about what's driving these sightings in 24 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.400 Lake Champlain. A quick note, Will you be in the 25 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:43.959 Atlanta area on Saturday, March sixteenth, twenty thirteen. If so, 26 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.640 please join us at Manuel's Tavern for an Atlanta Skepticamp fundraiser. 27 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.079 The entertainment will include John Snyder of American Free Thought, 28 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:56.280 Derek Colandano of Skepticality, and myself in a role I 29 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.640 was born to play, that of Blake Smith, the mischievous podcaster. 30 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:02.599 If you make it to the fundraiser and listen to 31 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:04.239 the show, be sure and stop by and say hello. 32 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.959 I love to meet you folks in real life. 33 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:07.200 Moremstertle. 34 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:10.879 Today we're going talking to Robert Bartholomew, who is a 35 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.039 sociologist teaching at Botany College in South Auckland, New Zealand. 36 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:17.039 He's author or co author of many books that would 37 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.240 be of interest to Monster Talk listeners, covering such topics 38 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.800 as mass hysteria, UFOs, extraterrestrial encounters, and pertinent to this interview, 39 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.080 the Untold Story of Champ, a social history of America's lockness. 40 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:29.840 Monster Welcome, Bob. 41 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:30.879 Well, thank you. 42 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:33.680 I'll try to speak loudly as I'm here in New Zealand, 43 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:35.199 thousands of miles away. 44 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.039 That's right, You're coming through very well. 45 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:40.960 He said Champ of the Lake Monster. I think we'll 46 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.400 be familiar to most of our listeners, but I doubt 47 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:45.280 they've gone as deep with Champ as you have. Can 48 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:46.759 you tell us a little bit about your book and 49 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:47.520 why you wrote it? 50 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.479 Sure, this is one of the great untold stories of 51 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:57.039 American history. During the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, the 52 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.240 Champlain Monster, or Sea Serpent as it was no at 53 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.400 the time, was the equivalent of the Lochness Monster. It 54 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:09.759 was a household name across the United States. The reason 55 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.759 I wrote the book is to separate fact from fiction 56 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.159 from speculation, because when you look in the media and 57 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:20.439 at the various claims out there, it's hard to know 58 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.080 what to believe. There are all kinds of claims out there. 59 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:24.680 There's a woman who claims to be able to hear 60 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:30.120 chant making sounds under the water. The famous Mansie photo, 61 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.719 supposedly the greatest lake monster photo ever taken near Saint Albans, Vermont. 62 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.360 Supposedly there are some strange things about that photo. And 63 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:40.800 when I look back the other major book that's been 64 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.360 written on Champ was by Joe Zarzinski, who wrote a 65 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.960 book called Chant Beyond the Legend back in nineteen eighty four, 66 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:49.639 and I knew Joe very well, and having read that 67 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:54.280 book as a child, and I did some research on Champ. 68 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.199 What I realized was that there was a lot of 69 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.520 information that was not in that book, like the entire 70 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:04.159 history of Champ prior to nineteen fifty. Virtually all of 71 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.479 that information is maybe fifteen hundred words in his book, 72 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.680 about thirty thousand in my book. 73 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:10.159 I felt it's. 74 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:16.120 Very important to thoroughly document the early history and sightings 75 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.199 of Champ up until about nineteen fifty, and then there's 76 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:21.560 a lot more information from nineteen fifty to president I 77 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:23.639 also put in information about that as well. But this 78 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.800 is a legitimate part of American history. It needs to 79 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.720 be preserved and people have a right to have the 80 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:34.160 full information about Champ. For example, I had access to 81 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:39.319 a lot of correspondence with Josarzinsky with doctor Phil Rains 82 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:41.680 at State University of New York at Plattsburg, who was 83 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.360 a monster hunter in the nineteen sixties and seventies looking 84 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.199 for Champ. And when I looked at those documents and letters, 85 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.800 I realized that Josarzinski had left a lot of information 86 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.800 out of his book, and some of that information wasn't 87 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.839 exactly complementary toward Champ, so we kind of skewed it. 88 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.319 Yeah, it's I thought the same thing again. I've I've 89 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.319 read I've read your book The Untold Story of Champ, 90 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:11.079 having done some research on my own, and and just 91 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.480 being interested of course in Lake monsters and Chants specifically. 92 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:17.800 It was it was just really nice to see a 93 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.000 much fuller treatment. As you pointed out, I mean I'd 94 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.199 read Joe's book years and years ago, and and you're 95 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.160 exactly right. I mean he sort of gives very short 96 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.560 shrift to anything before really the nineteen seventy seven Sandramancy 97 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.879 photo published in eighty one. He's sort of that sort 98 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:36.639 of that to him is sort of the main starting point. 99 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.240 And I think I think you did a great job 100 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.439 in terms of putting the historical context of Champ in 101 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:45.560 these claims, and so it was it was really cool 102 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.800 for me to sort of see somebody taking a scholarly 103 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:50.639 approach to sort of filling in the gaps, and I 104 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:51.720 think you did that really well. 105 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:53.639 Well. Thank you. Very much. 106 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:58.199 To be able to make advancements and sciences and the humanities, 107 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:00.720 you have to stand on the shoulders of giants and 108 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.240 what's come before you. And one of those books was 109 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.040 your book with Joe Nicol Lake Monster Mysteries, that was 110 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:10.519 very helpful. Now, in that book you had different chapters 111 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.160 on different lake monsters, and one of those was Champ. 112 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.079 And the research that you had done was very helpful 113 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.279 and enlightening for me because it helped me to formulate 114 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:24.079 more specific questions as I was delving into this. Most 115 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.839 books on Champ claim that Champ is some sort of dinosaur, 116 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:32.720 either a zugliodon or a plesiosaur, a former primitive whale 117 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:35.439 being a zuguliodon, a plesiosaur being this kind of stout 118 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:38.600 creature with flippers and a long neck. But as I 119 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:44.920 looked into this, those possibilities to me became less and 120 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:49.839 less realistic because these are mammals and they have to 121 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:53.040 come up for air, and hypothetically you would be seeing 122 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:55.439 a lot more sightings than you are now. And then 123 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.560 there's the whole problem of how Champ would be breathing 124 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:04.839 in the wintertime, And people say, well, maybe Champs adopted 125 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:09.199 to be an air breather and it can stay under 126 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.480 water for a lot longer. And well, yes, but Lake 127 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.160 Champlain has only been there for about ten to twelve 128 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:15.839 thousand years. 129 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:16.839 It's a glacial lake. 130 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.480 People come up with all sorts of speculation, like, you know, 131 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.759 what if George Washington had an electric blender at Valley Forge, 132 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:26.399 would we have won the war quicker or something. I mean, 133 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.319 it's all kinds of speculation, and you can speculate about anything. 134 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.199 I mean, champ is part of this world where like 135 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:42.920 Bigfoot and UFOs or other cryptozoological creatures, you have sightings, 136 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.920 you seem to have some physical evidence at times, but 137 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.519 then nobody has any concrete evidence to take into a 138 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.319 laboratory and say, yep, that's the Champlain Monster or the 139 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:54.680 Lochnest monster, or that's a Bigfoot. We all know about 140 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.800 Bigfoot and how people have those claims and it never 141 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.800 seems to pan out well in the one sense. I mean, 142 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.279 there are people out there saying, well, maybe the Lake 143 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.959 Champlain monster is like Bigfoot and it's some type of 144 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.839 paranormal creature that has the you know, goes into another 145 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.959 dimension or something. And as a scientist, oh, that's interesting 146 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.240 and you can speculate about just about anything. You know, 147 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.319 maybe there's interdimensional creatures out there. 148 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:22.160 But to me, the much more plausible. 149 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:26.040 Explanation is that the human mind is very fallible and 150 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.439 subject to error. The human mind does not take an 151 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.240 information like a video cassette recorder. It interprets information as 152 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.039 it takes it in. All you have to do is 153 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.440 watch the Super Bowl and a couple of calls there 154 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.000 could have met that San Francisco forty nine ers would 155 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.720 have won. It's very You have referees and umpires who 156 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.440 are trained observers, They have excellent eyesight, they know the rules, 157 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.360 at least now they know the rules the pre pre 158 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.360 season umpires, and I'm not sure if these are the rules. 159 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.559 But and yet they continue, and they practice all the 160 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.120 time to continue to make mistakes and get it wrong. 161 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.960 And even sometimes tis the video replays, they make mistakes, 162 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:06.399 like that famous game there before they hire the quote 163 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:10.639 unquote real referees back. It's just the nature of the 164 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.720 way human beings are in the way we function. I mean, 165 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.639 I can remember as a child looking out on Lake 166 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:19.200 Champlain and thinking, gee, maybe I'll swim to the other side. 167 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.919 It looked about a football field long, but you start 168 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:27.600 swimming out there and it's two or three miles long. 169 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000 Because especially on water and when you're looking on oceans 170 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.000 and lakes, it's very easy to misidentify things and it's 171 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.799 very easy to get a differing perspective there. And it's 172 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.000 also important for people to realize that I keep an 173 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.480 open mind, and it certainly is possible. I think, Ben, 174 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.600 you've done research on the Champlain Sea Serpent, the Champlain Monster, 175 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.360 and you have said that you know, you're open minded 176 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:56.320 if the evidence is. 177 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.600 There, sure, sure, absolutely, And. 178 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.399 What people have to realize is not every light in 179 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.039 the sky is a UFO, you know, Not every rustling 180 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:11.639 in the woods is a Bigfoot. Not every temperature spike 181 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.639 or energy spike on some electronic device in a so 182 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:17.399 called haunted house is proof that there's a ghost there. 183 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.559 And not every object spotted on Lake Champlain or Lockness 184 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.720 is the Locknest Monster or Champ. And so we have 185 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:27.399 to kind of keep it in perspective. I would say 186 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.559 that ninety percent of the people that see Champ or 187 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.799 the Locknest Monster or Bigfoot or honest sincere people, that 188 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:43.159 few people are hoaxing. And by the same token, Lauren 189 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:47.759 Coleman has suggested that perhaps ten percent of witnesses to 190 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.600 something that they can't fully explain, like a bigfoot or 191 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:56.639 a lake monster, ten percent of those witnesses actually actually 192 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.360 come forward, and the other ninety percent stay quiet because 193 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:03.080 of ridicule or they just don't care. So you have 194 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.679 a phenomena here that you got a human aspect to 195 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.320 it as well. Like if you go back in the 196 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.399 early European sightings and there aren't many up until all 197 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:17.399 the mid eighteen hundreds, why is that. Well, the Europeans 198 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:20.879 around Lake Champlain at the time were dodging Indians, they 199 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.240 were having problems with smallpox, the influenza outbreaks that would occur. 200 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:27.240 I mean, you get. 201 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:30.159 Influenza today, you go to the dock, usually not always, 202 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.960 but usually you'll recover. Back then, I mean that was 203 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:38.559 extremely dangerous, still dangerous today, but even more so back then. 204 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:40.960 And then you have people that can't get to a 205 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.919 nearby town maybe once a month, so they can't pick 206 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:46.399 up the phone and say, yeah, I just saw a 207 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.159 sea serpent on Lake Champlain. So you have all these 208 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.159 factors that enter into it. And then you have to 209 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.440 assume that the nearby town has a newspaper as well, 210 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:57.960 and then you're going to tell somebody who's going to 211 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.000 actually report it in the paper. So there are all 212 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.919 these factors that enter into it as to why you 213 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.759 have the sightings when you do have the sidings, Because 214 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:09.440 of course, the main flap and I know you know 215 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.480 this bend in eighteen seventy three, that was when the 216 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:17.320 first major wave of sightings occurred on Lake Champlain. And 217 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:22.440 that's really an interesting motif that starts to develop here 218 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.639 because you get flaps. The history of sightings on Lake Champlain, 219 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.240 like on Lockness, is the history of sighting flaps And 220 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.000 why is it? And I'd like to know what you 221 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:35.840 think about this as well. Why is it that you 222 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.519 have dozens and dozens of sidings in eighteen seventy three 223 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:42.919 and then say, in eighteen seventy six is virtually nothing 224 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.240 and then all of a sudden you get a whole 225 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:46.960 flare up of sightings Again. 226 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.960 Yeah, I don't know, that's that's you know, exactly as 227 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.480 you pointed out, you know, with with UFOs, of course 228 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.080 they have you know, that's that's usually where people think 229 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.639 of flaps. But but you know, there are these things 230 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.000 go in sois and certainly. 231 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:01.679 Uh. 232 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.799 It is fascinating when you look at the different flaps 233 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.080 cycles of of lake Monster sidings, whether it's og Pogo 234 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:12.799 and Lake Okanagan or Champion Champlain. You know when I 235 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.159 was when I was doing the research there with with 236 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.240 with Joe uh in Burlington in Port Henry, New York 237 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.159 as well. You know, they have a big champ board 238 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.639 up there and it lists the sidings and and what's 239 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:28.960 really interesting is that I've gotten off the top of 240 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:31.159 my head, but I think that about half of the 241 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.279 sidings that are listed on that board were clustered around 242 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.120 two or three specific dates and and and not specific dates, 243 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.159 but certainly a few years. And so you you don't 244 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:45.320 have what you might expect to see, which is, uh, 245 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.320 you know, if there, if there is a population of 246 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.159 these creatures living in the lake, you would expect them 247 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.399 to be more or less evenly distributed. I mean that is, 248 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.600 you know, animals don't don't only appear in July and December. 249 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.279 I mean they they have have to eat and move 250 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.159 around and things like that, and so you would expect, 251 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.919 obviously with some variation, but you would expect them more 252 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:10.080 or less, you know, more evenly distributed whereas in fact, 253 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.120 what you find, as you just pointed out, is a 254 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.240 much more of a clustering flap effect. And in my 255 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.200 best guest, frankly, is that is that you sort of 256 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.159 have one sighting that spurs other ones, and so you 257 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:26.080 have sort of a social contagion aspect. 258 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.679 Yeah, I think definitely you have a media aspect here 259 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.639 in terms of reporting. The other question is is this 260 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.360 some type of phenomena that is related to the creature 261 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.519 if it exists itself in terms of the sightings and 262 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.879 why they would cluster as they do. It's interesting and 263 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.919 that was very insightful when you were talking about the 264 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.360 sightings board at Port Henry, when I read that in 265 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.159 your book that most of those sightings were clustered around 266 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:57.799 the time when the famous Mansi photo came out. And 267 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:03.360 what's interesting there is a nineteen seventy historian Marjor Reporter 268 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.360 wrote an article in Vermont Life magazine, very well known 269 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.200 in the region, and she claimed in that article that 270 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.759 in sixteen oh nine, Samuel D. Champlain wrote in his 271 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.879 ship's log that he saw a snakelike creature about twenty 272 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:22.279 feet long with a head like a horse. Now, this 273 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.039 story has been repeated in books, on TV, documentaries and 274 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.320 magazine articles for years and years now, checking back and 275 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.320 looking for the original log, it's not there. The log 276 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.279 is there, but that information that sighting is not there. 277 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.480 He did not see Champ. What he described seeing was 278 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.120 a big fish, and it's a textbook description of a 279 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:49.720 garb pipe. But here's what's interesting. Prior to nineteen seventy 280 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.919 in that Vermont Life article, there were zero sightings of 281 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.960 Champ with a horse like head, not a single report. 282 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:01.519 After that article, everybody was seeing Champ with a horse 283 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.240 like head. It's a form of mass psychology. But then 284 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:08.519 you ask yourself at the same time, why is it 285 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:14.000 then that the village of Port Henry has that sighting 286 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.960 board and still has because it's common knowledge up there 287 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.399 that Samuel d. Champlain saw gar pike, that it wasn't Champ, right, 288 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.360 So why is it they still have Samuel de Champlain 289 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.960 as being the first sighting of Champ on that sighting's board. 290 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:35.519 And why are newspaper reporters in that region still talking 291 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.360 about new sightings of Champ or the annual Champ Day 292 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.399 festival that they have every year when that article comes 293 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.679 out they discuss it in terms of Samuel de Champlain, 294 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:49.279 of course, was the first European to cite the creature 295 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.559 on the lake. And I keep coming up with an 296 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.000 answer that's green and it's trying to promote tourism. 297 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.360 It's not objective journalism. 298 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:01.200 Now, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, that's an 299 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.200 you know, part of it. I think it's just laziness. 300 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.200 You know, people people don't want to know the truth. 301 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.880 It's not it's not interesting or sexy to realize that no, 302 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.640 Champlain did not actually see champ and so, you know, 303 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:14.519 I think I think you're right. Part of it is 304 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.039 is tourism and you might as well flog the story 305 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:18.759 for all it's worth. And the other part is just 306 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.000 people not They don't give a shit. They don't they 307 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:24.119 don't care if it makes a good story, they're run 308 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.440 with it doesn't matter what the facts are. 309 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.160 The clustering of the sightings, have you looked to see 310 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:31.119 if they correspond to any time period where there were 311 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.799 being increased activity on the lake or or do they 312 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:35.480 seem to just be all over the place. 313 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:37.960 Well, no, h if you look. 314 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.559 And in the book, I talk about Gary Manchacopra's research, 315 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:46.839 a biologist in Connecticut, and Gary has plotted out all 316 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.079 known sightings of champ up until a certain date, and 317 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.680 I think it was in the middle of the night, 318 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.640 in the middle of January or February. You're least likely 319 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.920 to see the Champlain Monster because of course the lake's 320 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:01.559 rolls over and not a whole huck of a lot 321 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:02.759 of people are going to be out in the lake 322 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.400 at that time. And then it's a certain day of 323 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.759 the week in the middle of summer, in the evening, 324 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.839 you're much more likely or most likely to have a 325 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.640 sighting of a champ. Now, earlier, Ben mentioned the word 326 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:19.519 you know, it's not too sexy to have a sighting 327 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.720 and stuff like that. Well, speaking of sex, I thought 328 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:23.799 i'd slipped that in there. 329 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.400 Gary, that's going to help our ratings. 330 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:29.440 Well, you just doubled five. 331 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.640 Gary suggests that maybe the creature is some type of 332 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.440 asexual creature can reproduce on its own. I would know 333 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.960 about that myself. But what's what's interesting is, I think 334 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:43.640 to have a creature, you don't. 335 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:45.839 Have one old monster in the lake. 336 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:51.319 What you have is if it's there a breeding community 337 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.599 of between say fifteen and thirty five or forty creatures 338 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.039 in the lake, and then that begs the question, well, 339 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.680 how come you don't see you you have the smoking gun? Well, here, 340 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.359 where's the floating body? But then again, there are sturgeon 341 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.319 in the lake that are over one hundred years old, 342 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:13.400 that can grow up to at least a couple of 343 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:17.920 hundred pounds in terms of weight, and very very few 344 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.160 people ever see a body of a sturgeon as well, 345 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.079 or other fish floating on lakes. Just the whole thing 346 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.319 with people looking for bigfoot saying, well, how many times 347 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.240 have you seen a dead beer in the woods, or 348 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.920 how many times have you seen dead deer in the woods? 349 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:32.359 And that's true. 350 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.279 I mean, on the other hand, you think throughout the 351 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:40.480 entire history of humankind that someone would have gotten the 352 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:42.880 creature and then you'd have the remnants of it there. 353 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.519 But just doesn't seem to have happened. Yet. 354 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:50.240 It did sound like, for what you said, that you 355 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.359 wouldn't see them in the winter time. But on a 356 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.680 nice summer evening, when you're sitting out by the lake 357 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:56.880 and it's cool and you're looking out and your vision's 358 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.559 obscure because it's partially dark, that's a much better time 359 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.240 to see something like this. But let's back up just 360 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.079 a little bit, because what you're gonna end up doing 361 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:06.680 is making me want to stop talking to you and 362 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.359 go research. That's which this is a horrible habit I have. 363 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.839 What I'd like to do is you're uniquely positioned, I think, 364 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.640 to set a scene that's rarely talked about, which is 365 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.519 you can talk about what it was like in New 366 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:25.839 York and Vermont during the heyday of this first champ flap. 367 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.039 What was going on? I mean, were there people out 368 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.400 of the lake with harpoons or or was everybody just 369 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.319 watching or what happened? 370 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:32.519 Then? 371 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.400 Well, I wasn't there back in eighteen seventy three, but 372 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.559 my relatives were, and I can remember stories being told 373 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:43.519 by my grandmother of her mother and sightings out on 374 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:49.599 Lake Champlain. It was an extraordinary moment and time. It 375 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:50.759 was really remarkable. 376 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:51.440 And then P. T. 377 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.599 Barnum came in after they had these initial sightings on 378 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.160 the southern end of the lake, and he offered a 379 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:02.279 fifty thousand dollars reward for capture the creature or its carcass, 380 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.839 which set off a frenzy of people looking for the creature. 381 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.079 And what's interesting is, I think at that point you 382 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:16.759 have people then scrutinizing the lake, and I think it 383 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.559 sets the scene. Not to twist the question around here, 384 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:25.319 but to me, it's a recipe. There's a certain recipe 385 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.759 for lake monster flaps. And you have, as Ben had 386 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:32.240 alluded to, you have this initial sensational case. And there 387 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:37.000 was a case of railroad workers up in Dresden who 388 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.519 had a spectacular report of this large snakelike creature in 389 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.759 the lake and historically it's between fifteen and forty feet long. 390 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.759 Fit that bill, very snakelike that got reported in the 391 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.759 local paper, the Whitehall Times, and I think this prompted 392 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.400 more local residents to go out onto the lake and 393 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:02.480 scrutinize their surroundings for evidence of this creature, and they 394 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.960 start redefining things that ordinarily they wouldn't think was chanp. 395 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.400 Maybe it's a large turtle. 396 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:07.599 In the lake. 397 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:12.519 And then you get what I call retrospective interpretation. Two 398 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.079 months earlier, somebody had seen something, they didn't think too 399 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.200 much of it, and then now that becomes a champ. 400 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.599 They start redefining those events that happened in the past. 401 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:32.079