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That's Shumback 45 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:03.239 Casino dot com. 46 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.840 You'll be necessary deever by lost in terms conditions eighteen plus. 47 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:19.199 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 48 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.319 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:28.479 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker DTK. 50 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:33.199 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 51 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:37.400 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 52 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:52.439 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening, The 53 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.520 creep among Us, The true story of the next chapter, 54 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.639 investigations and research which entails some of what we know 55 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.039 little more than five months into solving who the East 56 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:08.319 Area rapist, Original night Stalker, Golden State Killer is. The 57 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.960 story continues after the arrest of Joseph James DiAngelo on 58 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:16.639 April twenty four, twenty eighteen, in Sacramento, California. The trial, 59 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:20.560 estimated to begin in about four years, will be unprecedented 60 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.360 as several jurisdictions will try DiAngelo and Sacramento at the 61 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.520 same time. There have been multitudes of articles and information 62 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:31.599 that have come out in the five months since the arrest. 63 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.960 Di Angelo was found from DNA left at the scenes 64 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.520 of as many rapes and then murders over a ten 65 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:42.680 year span nineteen seventy six to nineteen eighty six. A 66 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:47.599 profile downloaded to ged match, as well as experts who 67 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.919 trace his profile to his family tree, were instrumental in 68 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:53.719 the final arrest of a man whose DNA matched the 69 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:57.680 suspect with one hundred percent match. An pen is just 70 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.400 one of hundreds of people involved in the story who 71 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:05.240 needed to investigate the details. He truly was the creep 72 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.639 hiding among us, the creepiest thing of all. He was 73 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.759 living among his victims in his favorite attack areas in 74 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:15.000 the East Sacramento area of Citrus Heights for most of 75 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:18.160 the last forty two years. We shall see how the 76 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:22.439 investigators connect all of the dots. Miss Penn was compelled 77 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:26.439 to follow this story through to justice. Her investigations into 78 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.040 the details of who this perpetrator is and how we 79 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.399 missed him in nineteen seventy five nineteen seventy nine are 80 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:36.519 something she had to ask questions about. Larry Crompton has 81 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.680 written his thoughts after the arrest, and they are included. 82 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.319 Mark Smith discusses the ballistics involved in some of the murders. 83 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:46.920 Many ran the idea that the criminal was in law 84 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.279 enforcement throughout the many years mister Smith discusses how we 85 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:54.040 could have and should have determined that this man was 86 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:54.480 a cop. 87 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.480 The book they were featuring this evening is the Creep 88 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:59.879 among Us Golden State Killer After the Arrest, with my 89 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:03.800 special guest journalist and author and Penn. Welcome back to 90 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:05.879 the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to 91 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.240 this interview. And Penn, thank. 92 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:10.519 You so much. Dale appreciate it. 93 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.920 Thank you so much for providing us with the most 94 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.360 important and up to date information regarding this case that 95 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:24.439 will and still continues to captivate many and many many 96 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.360 people in the true crime world and outside that world, 97 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.319 and we haven't seen anything yet when all of that 98 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:35.120 media comes to rest on this story when he does 99 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:41.519 go eventually to trial, finally to trial. Congratulations on this book. 100 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:47.720 Let's start with, as you do in this book, what 101 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:53.240 you found out about his connection. And we talked about 102 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:57.199 Visalia Ransacker, so people that know this case know that 103 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:01.120 that connection was made quite a while ago with DNA, 104 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:06.319 many years ago. But you've opened the book talking about 105 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:11.839 his connection to Visalia as a police officer at Exeter 106 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:16.319 Police Department. So tell us as you do about what 107 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.720 you found out about his assignment with the police and 108 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.199 how that contributed to the Visilia ransacking. Tell us what 109 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.120 you write in the beginning of the book about the 110 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:30.519 burglaries and the composite drawing and everything that they knew 111 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.920 at that time from those ransacking crimes. 112 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:36.759 Well, of course there's a lot of detail in every 113 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.279 aspect of each series that Vysealia Roundsacker is where they 114 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:45.120 believe he began. But as research is done into the crimes, 115 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.839 I'm sure they'll find that there were probably something going 116 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:53.879 on prior to that. When he went to Exeter as 117 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:58.360 a police officer, he worked there for about three years 118 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:02.160 and he was about a ten minute drive away from Ilia, 119 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.839 so when they hired him on, he lived there with 120 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:12.439 his wife and ended up working in that whole area, 121 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:15.759 you know, a lot of rural area. And what I've 122 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.360 found out was that what he knows and what he 123 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.560 you know, educated himself to know, was the process and 124 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.720 the procedures of the police. And of course when he 125 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:28.959 was an Exeter he was in part of the burglary 126 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:34.720 task force and he possibly investigated some of his own crimes. 127 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:39.360 As of Ylia Runsacker. They didn't I had to find 128 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.800 out for myself. You know, there's a lot of information, 129 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:44.439 a lot of interviews, a lot of people that people 130 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.920 talked to, and I had to find out for myself. 131 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.079 I really wanted to know how this guy was missed 132 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.439 or if there was any red flags or anything going 133 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.279 on in Exeter, And a lot of people have asked 134 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.399 that question, and a lot of information is out there 135 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.519 to answer that. But for me, I had to talked 136 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.600 to Exeter myself, and I did speak to one of 137 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:09.160 his coworkers, a really nice guy, Farah Ward. He basically 138 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.680 just said that he knew how long it would take 139 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:17.720 for investigators to show up if he was involved in 140 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.480 a burglary. He knew it would take anywhere from fifteen 141 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.480 minutes to thirty minutes to get somebody out to the scene, 142 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:26.959 so he had plenty of time to get away. Always 143 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.360 they had to either catch him in the act or 144 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.000 be nearby or whatever. But it was such a rural 145 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.000 place that it was pretty easy for if by Sally 146 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.039 Ransacker to get away with all the crimes, and they 147 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.919 never suspected Joseph DiAngelo at all. 148 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:47.200 Now you also, and I'm sorry if I jump ahead 149 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:50.080 for those people that know this case much better, like yourself. 150 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.519 But since this time, there has been some developments. And 151 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:57.840 while we're in talking about this, let's talk about the 152 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:04.559 August two thousand and eighteen first degree murder charges. At least, 153 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.399 let's talk about Claude Snelling and the murder of nineteen 154 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.879 seventy five and the new development based after this arrest. 155 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.559 Well, of course, you know, it was interesting he was 156 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:21.320 charged first in the Maggiori murders and then also the 157 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.000 Smith murders and Ventura. But it took a while as 158 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.039 each murder charge was added to you know, all the 159 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:32.720 different other victims like the Domingos and Offerman, Manning and 160 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:35.799 so on, all the different victims that they charged him with, 161 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.120 all the murders, the very last one that they came 162 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.759 to was charging him with the Cloud Snelling murder in 163 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.919 Visalia from nineteen seventy five. And I think probably besides 164 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.240 the fact that they of course have to make sure 165 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.200 that they're going to file charges and they have a 166 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.840 really good case, they didn't have any DNA in that case, 167 00:09:56.120 --> 00:10:00.799 and that was probably why thirteenth murder added to the charges. 168 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.919 Right, Can you tell us about the particulars of the 169 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:09.120 Snelling murder in nineteen seventy. 170 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.639 Five, Well, you know, most people who do follow the 171 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:17.399 case know that the perpetrator, known as by Jelly Ransacker, 172 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.840 he was believed to be the same guy who went 173 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:25.320 into the Snelling home tried to drag Beth Snelling Elizabeth 174 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.039 Snelling out of the home. She was sixteen at the 175 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:32.960 time if I'm correct, and I thought maybe sixteen seventeen. 176 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.960 She you know, was woke up to the guy over 177 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:40.200 her and he tried to drag her out of the house. 178 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:44.440 Her father heard the commotion and came to try to 179 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.879 stop him and was shot twice in the doorway. And 180 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:53.840 the perpetrator kicked death in the face and left and 181 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:57.480 Cloud Snelling passed away on the way to the hospital. 182 00:10:59.240 --> 00:10:59.960 Yeah, incredible. 183 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:04.200 Yeah, So Vycelia set up a sting to try to 184 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:10.000 catch the guy and did not, unfortunately catch him, but 185 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:12.440 they did get to see his face enough to do 186 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:14.279 a composite And that. 187 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:19.279 Was in December when he shot at an Officer McGowan. 188 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.279 Tell us a little bit about this. The fortunate luck 189 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.840 of officer McGowan. 190 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:28.639 Well, I mean he did, you know, he did run 191 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:30.720 into him, and he did run into him with a 192 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:35.240 mask on. They set up a sting and he was there. 193 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:39.759 He was and officer McGowan went out there and confronted him, 194 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:45.120 and by Cella Ransucker pretended like he was going to 195 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:49.759 possibly surrender, pulled his mask off of his head and 196 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:53.840 said something sort of distracting in a high pitched voice, 197 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:58.120 and ended up shooting at McCallan. He had a gun, 198 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.679 so he hit the flashlight. Flashlight shattered and glass went 199 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:06.399 into the officer's eyes and he ended up getting. 200 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:11.120 Away as a result. Though they thought they might have 201 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.600 a pretty good he said, he got a pretty good 202 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.720 look at him. So the composite and now what we 203 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.519 know in retrospect, how good was that composite. 204 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:23.720 Well, my opinion, and I probably said that in my book, 205 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:26.200 is that that was probably one of the best compositive 206 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:29.240 course that they had done. And it really did look 207 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.399 the most like him, and it should have so. Unfortunately, 208 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:41.440 when after these murders, D'Angelo left, he applied for a 209 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:46.279 position in Auburn, and I asked the officer down there 210 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.639 in Exeter whether or not he seemed to be in 211 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.000 a hurry, and he said no, he just applied for 212 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.360 the transfer, and when it came through, he gave us 213 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.000 two weeks notice and he was on his way. But 214 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.720 there was no red flag, no reason for them to 215 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:04.200 think anything of it. But of course after the Snelling murder, 216 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.720 there wasn't much more activity from the Viselliu Mansacker. 217 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.440 You say that six months later was the first reported 218 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.879 rape in Sacramento, June eighteenth, nineteen seventy six. 219 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:21.399 Right, that's correct. 220 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.240 He tell us a little bit about as you do. 221 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.000 Tell us a little bit about Chief Deputy Sheriff Fred Reese. 222 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.600 He's got very very interesting statements for him to be 223 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:38.679 attributed to in this. 224 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.360 Are you talking about the there's a lot of detectives involved, 225 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:44.759 So are you talking about the one who made comments 226 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:46.080 about his frenzy? 227 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:53.000 Yes, his psychological assessment there back in the day, Yeah, and. 228 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:54.919 I think it probably, like I said in my book, 229 00:13:55.080 --> 00:14:02.200 enraged the Angelo And yeah, yeah, I didn't agree with 230 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:03.720 what he had said at the time. But if you 231 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.720 think about it, back in the seventies, there wasn't a 232 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.679 lot of psychological profiling. There wasn't a lot of information 233 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.600 about what drove a serial killer. There wasn't even the 234 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.720 term serial killer until I think it was in the seventies. 235 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.559 They were called mass murderers at the time. Serial killer 236 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:24.320 was a new term coined in the seventies, so he 237 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.720 didn't know much about what he was trying to say. 238 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:29.960 Well, what he did say is that he said, this 239 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.840 individual is probably in a homosexual panic caused by his 240 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:35.240 inadequate endowment. 241 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:39.759 Right, So it's an assumption on the detective's part, I think. 242 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.559 But yeah, nobody would maybe agree with releasing a statement 243 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.480 quite like that unless they could say there was some 244 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.120 going to be good effect from it, a good result 245 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.639 or reaction from it. Right. 246 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:57.919 No, And back in the day, like I said, back 247 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.960 in the seventies, it was a completely different animal when 248 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.399 it came to what they did and how they did it, 249 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.519 and who said what to the media, and whether they 250 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:08.960 even let us know anything was going on for a while. 251 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.039 So there's a whole different thing than today. 252 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:21.559 M Now you've just mentioned in this too, is that 253 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:27.480 we went fast forward to twenty seventeen, twenty fifteen. FBI 254 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:32.519 criminologist or criminalist Paul Holes he never believed there was 255 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:38.799 a connection between Visalia and Sacramento, but Richard Shelby and Hunting, 256 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.720 a psychopath, asserted that it was very adamant about that, 257 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:44.679 wasn't he right? 258 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.000 And I think what you know, everybody had their own opinion. 259 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.360 A lot of people didn't see a connection at all 260 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:55.799 between the two. The comments that mister Holes had said 261 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.480 over time that he didn't really see the connection. You know, 262 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.799 everybody had their opinion about it. Maybe people were hopeful 263 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.000 it wasn't the same guy, because it's horrendous that he 264 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.600 got away with over one hundred and twenty five break 265 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.840 ins and prowlings and all the stuff that he did 266 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:15.320 prior to even showing up in Sacramento. But yeah, now, 267 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.639 of course mister Hole says that he is one hundred 268 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.000 percent sure that it was him, and that's you know, 269 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.759 that's everybody had an opinion. I always thought that it 270 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:28.679 made sense that it was him practicing to become, you know, 271 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.279 better at what he was doing. He is definitely a burglar. 272 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.039 Leslie di Ambrosia said that people who attacking homes are 273 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:40.879 typically really good cat burglars, and she was absolutely right, 274 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:44.200 And that's what he did, and so he practiced and 275 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.840 he got very good at it, and he continued on. 276 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:53.120 So you talk about his background, starting that he he 277 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.399 was a Navy officer, and we're talking about Vietnam time. 278 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:01.039 So tell me, as you do, who was writing in 279 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.920 your book where he went to school and for what 280 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.279 what was he studying? 281 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:13.519 Interestingly, well, of course criminology. He went to Sierra College, 282 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.359 which was not far from Auburn. Actually he knew all 283 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.920 the rural roads back that direction. The college he ended 284 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.400 up in was second State College, and got a bachelor's 285 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:30.799 degree in criminal justice. So he was training himself to 286 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.160 see what he became, which was a criminal. 287 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.839 Sure you say that too, Het. He met a woman 288 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.960 as well, and his wife, and she became his wife. 289 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.400 What was she studying to become? And became a lawyer. 290 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.720 She became a lawyer in family law and successfully practiced 291 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.440 that until right after the arrests. Her office was closed 292 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.279 about four days after the arrest. Maybe his was a 293 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:01.640 week May fourth. 294 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.920 Right, You write that they lived in Exeter from seventy 295 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:09.319 three to seventy six, but they didn't start a family 296 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.319 till nineteen eighty. 297 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:14.240 One. 298 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.960 In nineteen eighty one, okay, pardon me, now, you also 299 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.920 in this book, you're also looking at the other books 300 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.079 that you have written Murder on his Mind about the 301 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.839 Easter AIA rapist, and your journey and your investigation and 302 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:35.279 your personal connection to your uncle and your aunt Lyman 303 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:40.480 Smith and Charlene Smith, and you are through this throughout 304 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:45.160 this book, looking and commenting at what you predicted early 305 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.039 on in terms of who he might be and where 306 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:52.559 he might be, and other things that you again analyze 307 00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.880 against what the the con of the the knowledge at 308 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.799 the time was, and then you compare what your predictions were, 309 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:09.119 and then your comments now tell us about some of those, 310 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:15.519 including this Auburn Fulsome Road or Fulsome Road, and Citrus Heights, 311 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.359 and the proximity to as we alluded to in the introduction, 312 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.519 a lot of the attacks. 313 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.480 Well, what's interesting, I never thought that he actually lived 314 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:33.119 in his attack. I thought he lived outside that area. Originally, 315 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.000 I had started to think maybe he came from my 316 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.200 neck of the woods, which was south Sacramento, and I 317 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.559 believe that was the city, not the county. But as 318 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.440 time went on and I got more involved in investigating it, 319 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.240 and I never stopped doing that. As I put out 320 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:50.599 the second edition, I was still investigating and I still 321 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:57.400 actually am collecting information. But what happened is I just 322 00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.839 didn't think he was in the area. I thought he 323 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:02.759 you know, Paul Hols and I talked about at one 324 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:04.839 point that he was dropping off the highway and He's 325 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.319 told that in many, many interviews that he dropped off 326 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.920 Highway eighty and so I started thinking, well, you know, probably, 327 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.599 I mean, the frontage roads were a great way to 328 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.920 get around back then. There's a lot of rural frontage roads, 329 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.039 and it was obvious that DeAngelo knew his way around 330 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.400 intimately everywhere. And he had been at Sech State and 331 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.559 not far from there. You know the Fulsome areas there, 332 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:35.759 there's it's really very small area geographically if you travel 333 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:41.640 it by road by car. And what he did was 334 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:47.119 he would take the Auburn Fulsome road. This is my belief. 335 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.440 I don't have any one hundred percent proof, of course, 336 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.240 but this is this makes the most sense. When you're 337 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.640 in Auburn and he worked there and he lived there, 338 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.759 you travel the Auburn Fulsom Road, you can go through 339 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.880 the rural areas to the attacks easily in twenty minutes, 340 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.920 and then you can return back to Auburn and go 341 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.880 to bed and get up the next day and go 342 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.160 to work on time. And that's what I believe he did. 343 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:12.119 It makes the most sense. And that's what I talk 344 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.440 about in my book about the chapter on Auburn, because 345 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.119 what he did and what he managed to get away with. 346 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.799 I also say this in my book is that it 347 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.079 was absolutely the perfect scenario for him to do what 348 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.200 he did, to travel that road at night. Let's say 349 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.720 he worked at eleven o'clock at night, got off, drove 350 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.240 down the Auburn Fulsom for twenty minutes, did his attacking, 351 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.440 his recon did whatever he needed to do, and he 352 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.319 could go home and get to work the next day 353 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:48.359 on time. So it was absolutely perfect to nobody was 354 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.160 looking for him there because he was in Plaster County. 355 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:54.559 Plaster County is a twenty minute drive to Sacramento County. 356 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.079 You also win this in this book. You spoke to 357 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.960 Nick Willock, former police chief of Auburn, and he had 358 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:09.880 worked under D'Angelo for about four months. 359 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.400 No Angelo worked for him about four months. 360 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.480 Okay, pardon me now, tell us a little bit about 361 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.720 his observations and his thoughts about D'Angelo, his experience with them. 362 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.000 Well, I had to also chat with him because I 363 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.960 wanted to. I just really wanted to know and to 364 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.400 try to feel settled with how they missed him in 365 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.359 nineteen seventy nine and how they didn't see anything weird 366 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.039 about the guy. And you know, just hear for myself 367 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.119 what they had to say, and mister Willick was kind 368 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.000 enough to chat with me. And when I walked away 369 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:50.279 from both of these discussions about the guy and people 370 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.839 who knew him then and worked with him, then I 371 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:55.640 really was struck with the fact that it really was 372 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.960 nothing that they saw. There was no red flag, There 373 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.480 was no reason for them to have figured out that 374 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.559 this was him. And I felt a lot more at 375 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.079 peace with that after I spoke to them, and they 376 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.200 were very kind to talk to me, because I really 377 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.599 couldn't fathom at first. I was like, why, you know, 378 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:15.680 why didn't why weren't there red flag? Why didn't they 379 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.400 see it? Well, I can understand now from talking to 380 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.279 them that there was nothing he did. There was nothing 381 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:24.839 very weird. There was no he wasn't late to work, 382 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.920 He showed up on time. He you know, they said. 383 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.079 Mister Willick said he wasn't a great cop. He got 384 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.559 too close to people, physically close. He made people uncomfortable. 385 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:39.799 There were complaints filed against him, but nobody really thought 386 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:40.720 anything more than that. 387 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.880 You talk about the red flag, but what we're talking 388 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.960 about is that he was fired for shoplifting. And you 389 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.720 said that was given, given, given, given, the particulars. Tell 390 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.559 us the particulars so that we know what you were 391 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:57.200 referring to. 392 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.160 Well, the thing that I still have tried to reconcile, 393 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.880 and I talk about it a little bit in the 394 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.000 book too, is that even if they missed him in 395 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:09.759 Exeter and they missed him in Auburn, and I understand 396 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:10.920 now why they did. 397 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:12.720 That. 398 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.440 When he was arrested in nineteen seventy nine, he was 399 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.759 right in the middle of the attack zone. He was 400 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.839 off green Back in Citrus Heights, in a store right 401 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.599