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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening, The
Speaker 5: creep among Us, The true story of the next chapter,
Speaker 5: investigations and research which entails some of what we know
Speaker 5: little more than five months into solving who the East
Speaker 5: Area rapist, Original night Stalker, Golden State Killer is. The
Speaker 5: story continues after the arrest of Joseph James DiAngelo on
Speaker 5: April twenty four, twenty eighteen, in Sacramento, California. The trial,
Speaker 5: estimated to begin in about four years, will be unprecedented
Speaker 5: as several jurisdictions will try DiAngelo and Sacramento at the
Speaker 5: same time. There have been multitudes of articles and information
Speaker 5: that have come out in the five months since the arrest.
Speaker 5: Di Angelo was found from DNA left at the scenes
Speaker 5: of as many rapes and then murders over a ten
Speaker 5: year span nineteen seventy six to nineteen eighty six. A
Speaker 5: profile downloaded to ged match, as well as experts who
Speaker 5: trace his profile to his family tree, were instrumental in
Speaker 5: the final arrest of a man whose DNA matched the
Speaker 5: suspect with one hundred percent match. An pen is just
Speaker 5: one of hundreds of people involved in the story who
Speaker 5: needed to investigate the details. He truly was the creep
Speaker 5: hiding among us, the creepiest thing of all. He was
Speaker 5: living among his victims in his favorite attack areas in
Speaker 5: the East Sacramento area of Citrus Heights for most of
Speaker 5: the last forty two years. We shall see how the
Speaker 5: investigators connect all of the dots. Miss Penn was compelled
Speaker 5: to follow this story through to justice. Her investigations into
Speaker 5: the details of who this perpetrator is and how we
Speaker 5: missed him in nineteen seventy five nineteen seventy nine are
Speaker 5: something she had to ask questions about. Larry Crompton has
Speaker 5: written his thoughts after the arrest, and they are included.
Speaker 5: Mark Smith discusses the ballistics involved in some of the murders.
Speaker 5: Many ran the idea that the criminal was in law
Speaker 5: enforcement throughout the many years mister Smith discusses how we
Speaker 5: could have and should have determined that this man was
Speaker 5: a cop.
Speaker 7: The book they were featuring this evening is the Creep
Speaker 7: among Us Golden State Killer After the Arrest, with my
Speaker 7: special guest journalist and author and Penn. Welcome back to
Speaker 7: the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to
Speaker 7: this interview. And Penn, thank.
Speaker 6: You so much. Dale appreciate it.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much for providing us with the most
Speaker 7: important and up to date information regarding this case that
Speaker 7: will and still continues to captivate many and many many
Speaker 7: people in the true crime world and outside that world,
Speaker 7: and we haven't seen anything yet when all of that
Speaker 7: media comes to rest on this story when he does
Speaker 7: go eventually to trial, finally to trial. Congratulations on this book.
Speaker 7: Let's start with, as you do in this book, what
Speaker 7: you found out about his connection. And we talked about
Speaker 7: Visalia Ransacker, so people that know this case know that
Speaker 7: that connection was made quite a while ago with DNA,
Speaker 7: many years ago. But you've opened the book talking about
Speaker 7: his connection to Visalia as a police officer at Exeter
Speaker 7: Police Department. So tell us as you do about what
Speaker 7: you found out about his assignment with the police and
Speaker 7: how that contributed to the Visilia ransacking. Tell us what
Speaker 7: you write in the beginning of the book about the
Speaker 7: burglaries and the composite drawing and everything that they knew
Speaker 7: at that time from those ransacking crimes.
Speaker 6: Well, of course there's a lot of detail in every
Speaker 6: aspect of each series that Vysealia Roundsacker is where they
Speaker 6: believe he began. But as research is done into the crimes,
Speaker 6: I'm sure they'll find that there were probably something going
Speaker 6: on prior to that. When he went to Exeter as
Speaker 6: a police officer, he worked there for about three years
Speaker 6: and he was about a ten minute drive away from Ilia,
Speaker 6: so when they hired him on, he lived there with
Speaker 6: his wife and ended up working in that whole area,
Speaker 6: you know, a lot of rural area. And what I've
Speaker 6: found out was that what he knows and what he
Speaker 6: you know, educated himself to know, was the process and
Speaker 6: the procedures of the police. And of course when he
Speaker 6: was an Exeter he was in part of the burglary
Speaker 6: task force and he possibly investigated some of his own crimes.
Speaker 6: As of Ylia Runsacker. They didn't I had to find
Speaker 6: out for myself. You know, there's a lot of information,
Speaker 6: a lot of interviews, a lot of people that people
Speaker 6: talked to, and I had to find out for myself.
Speaker 6: I really wanted to know how this guy was missed
Speaker 6: or if there was any red flags or anything going
Speaker 6: on in Exeter, And a lot of people have asked
Speaker 6: that question, and a lot of information is out there
Speaker 6: to answer that. But for me, I had to talked
Speaker 6: to Exeter myself, and I did speak to one of
Speaker 6: his coworkers, a really nice guy, Farah Ward. He basically
Speaker 6: just said that he knew how long it would take
Speaker 6: for investigators to show up if he was involved in
Speaker 6: a burglary. He knew it would take anywhere from fifteen
Speaker 6: minutes to thirty minutes to get somebody out to the scene,
Speaker 6: so he had plenty of time to get away. Always
Speaker 6: they had to either catch him in the act or
Speaker 6: be nearby or whatever. But it was such a rural
Speaker 6: place that it was pretty easy for if by Sally
Speaker 6: Ransacker to get away with all the crimes, and they
Speaker 6: never suspected Joseph DiAngelo at all.
Speaker 7: Now you also, and I'm sorry if I jump ahead
Speaker 7: for those people that know this case much better, like yourself.
Speaker 7: But since this time, there has been some developments. And
Speaker 7: while we're in talking about this, let's talk about the
Speaker 7: August two thousand and eighteen first degree murder charges. At least,
Speaker 7: let's talk about Claude Snelling and the murder of nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy five and the new development based after this arrest.
Speaker 6: Well, of course, you know, it was interesting he was
Speaker 6: charged first in the Maggiori murders and then also the
Speaker 6: Smith murders and Ventura. But it took a while as
Speaker 6: each murder charge was added to you know, all the
Speaker 6: different other victims like the Domingos and Offerman, Manning and
Speaker 6: so on, all the different victims that they charged him with,
Speaker 6: all the murders, the very last one that they came
Speaker 6: to was charging him with the Cloud Snelling murder in
Speaker 6: Visalia from nineteen seventy five. And I think probably besides
Speaker 6: the fact that they of course have to make sure
Speaker 6: that they're going to file charges and they have a
Speaker 6: really good case, they didn't have any DNA in that case,
Speaker 6: and that was probably why thirteenth murder added to the charges.
Speaker 7: Right, Can you tell us about the particulars of the
Speaker 7: Snelling murder in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 6: Five, Well, you know, most people who do follow the
Speaker 6: case know that the perpetrator, known as by Jelly Ransacker,
Speaker 6: he was believed to be the same guy who went
Speaker 6: into the Snelling home tried to drag Beth Snelling Elizabeth
Speaker 6: Snelling out of the home. She was sixteen at the
Speaker 6: time if I'm correct, and I thought maybe sixteen seventeen.
Speaker 6: She you know, was woke up to the guy over
Speaker 6: her and he tried to drag her out of the house.
Speaker 6: Her father heard the commotion and came to try to
Speaker 6: stop him and was shot twice in the doorway. And
Speaker 6: the perpetrator kicked death in the face and left and
Speaker 6: Cloud Snelling passed away on the way to the hospital.
Speaker 7: Yeah, incredible.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So Vycelia set up a sting to try to
Speaker 6: catch the guy and did not, unfortunately catch him, but
Speaker 6: they did get to see his face enough to do
Speaker 6: a composite And that.
Speaker 7: Was in December when he shot at an Officer McGowan.
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about this. The fortunate luck
Speaker 7: of officer McGowan.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean he did, you know, he did run
Speaker 6: into him, and he did run into him with a
Speaker 6: mask on. They set up a sting and he was there.
Speaker 6: He was and officer McGowan went out there and confronted him,
Speaker 6: and by Cella Ransucker pretended like he was going to
Speaker 6: possibly surrender, pulled his mask off of his head and
Speaker 6: said something sort of distracting in a high pitched voice,
Speaker 6: and ended up shooting at McCallan. He had a gun,
Speaker 6: so he hit the flashlight. Flashlight shattered and glass went
Speaker 6: into the officer's eyes and he ended up getting.
Speaker 7: Away as a result. Though they thought they might have
Speaker 7: a pretty good he said, he got a pretty good
Speaker 7: look at him. So the composite and now what we
Speaker 7: know in retrospect, how good was that composite.
Speaker 6: Well, my opinion, and I probably said that in my book,
Speaker 6: is that that was probably one of the best compositive
Speaker 6: course that they had done. And it really did look
Speaker 6: the most like him, and it should have so. Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: when after these murders, D'Angelo left, he applied for a
Speaker 6: position in Auburn, and I asked the officer down there
Speaker 6: in Exeter whether or not he seemed to be in
Speaker 6: a hurry, and he said no, he just applied for
Speaker 6: the transfer, and when it came through, he gave us
Speaker 6: two weeks notice and he was on his way. But
Speaker 6: there was no red flag, no reason for them to
Speaker 6: think anything of it. But of course after the Snelling murder,
Speaker 6: there wasn't much more activity from the Viselliu Mansacker.
Speaker 7: You say that six months later was the first reported
Speaker 7: rape in Sacramento, June eighteenth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 6: Right, that's correct.
Speaker 7: He tell us a little bit about as you do.
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about Chief Deputy Sheriff Fred Reese.
Speaker 7: He's got very very interesting statements for him to be
Speaker 7: attributed to in this.
Speaker 6: Are you talking about the there's a lot of detectives involved,
Speaker 6: So are you talking about the one who made comments
Speaker 6: about his frenzy?
Speaker 7: Yes, his psychological assessment there back in the day, Yeah, and.
Speaker 6: I think it probably, like I said in my book,
Speaker 6: enraged the Angelo And yeah, yeah, I didn't agree with
Speaker 6: what he had said at the time. But if you
Speaker 6: think about it, back in the seventies, there wasn't a
Speaker 6: lot of psychological profiling. There wasn't a lot of information
Speaker 6: about what drove a serial killer. There wasn't even the
Speaker 6: term serial killer until I think it was in the seventies.
Speaker 6: They were called mass murderers at the time. Serial killer
Speaker 6: was a new term coined in the seventies, so he
Speaker 6: didn't know much about what he was trying to say.
Speaker 7: Well, what he did say is that he said, this
Speaker 7: individual is probably in a homosexual panic caused by his
Speaker 7: inadequate endowment.
Speaker 6: Right, So it's an assumption on the detective's part, I think.
Speaker 7: But yeah, nobody would maybe agree with releasing a statement
Speaker 7: quite like that unless they could say there was some
Speaker 7: going to be good effect from it, a good result
Speaker 7: or reaction from it. Right.
Speaker 6: No, And back in the day, like I said, back
Speaker 6: in the seventies, it was a completely different animal when
Speaker 6: it came to what they did and how they did it,
Speaker 6: and who said what to the media, and whether they
Speaker 6: even let us know anything was going on for a while.
Speaker 6: So there's a whole different thing than today.
Speaker 7: M Now you've just mentioned in this too, is that
Speaker 7: we went fast forward to twenty seventeen, twenty fifteen. FBI
Speaker 7: criminologist or criminalist Paul Holes he never believed there was
Speaker 7: a connection between Visalia and Sacramento, but Richard Shelby and Hunting,
Speaker 7: a psychopath, asserted that it was very adamant about that,
Speaker 7: wasn't he right?
Speaker 6: And I think what you know, everybody had their own opinion.
Speaker 6: A lot of people didn't see a connection at all
Speaker 6: between the two. The comments that mister Holes had said
Speaker 6: over time that he didn't really see the connection. You know,
Speaker 6: everybody had their opinion about it. Maybe people were hopeful
Speaker 6: it wasn't the same guy, because it's horrendous that he
Speaker 6: got away with over one hundred and twenty five break
Speaker 6: ins and prowlings and all the stuff that he did
Speaker 6: prior to even showing up in Sacramento. But yeah, now,
Speaker 6: of course mister Hole says that he is one hundred
Speaker 6: percent sure that it was him, and that's you know,
Speaker 6: that's everybody had an opinion. I always thought that it
Speaker 6: made sense that it was him practicing to become, you know,
Speaker 6: better at what he was doing. He is definitely a burglar.
Speaker 6: Leslie di Ambrosia said that people who attacking homes are
Speaker 6: typically really good cat burglars, and she was absolutely right,
Speaker 6: And that's what he did, and so he practiced and
Speaker 6: he got very good at it, and he continued on.
Speaker 7: So you talk about his background, starting that he he
Speaker 7: was a Navy officer, and we're talking about Vietnam time.
Speaker 7: So tell me, as you do, who was writing in
Speaker 7: your book where he went to school and for what
Speaker 7: what was he studying?
Speaker 6: Interestingly, well, of course criminology. He went to Sierra College,
Speaker 6: which was not far from Auburn. Actually he knew all
Speaker 6: the rural roads back that direction. The college he ended
Speaker 6: up in was second State College, and got a bachelor's
Speaker 6: degree in criminal justice. So he was training himself to
Speaker 6: see what he became, which was a criminal.
Speaker 7: Sure you say that too, Het. He met a woman
Speaker 7: as well, and his wife, and she became his wife.
Speaker 7: What was she studying to become? And became a lawyer.
Speaker 6: She became a lawyer in family law and successfully practiced
Speaker 6: that until right after the arrests. Her office was closed
Speaker 6: about four days after the arrest. Maybe his was a
Speaker 6: week May fourth.
Speaker 7: Right, You write that they lived in Exeter from seventy
Speaker 7: three to seventy six, but they didn't start a family
Speaker 7: till nineteen eighty.
Speaker 6: One.
Speaker 7: In nineteen eighty one, okay, pardon me, now, you also
Speaker 7: in this book, you're also looking at the other books
Speaker 7: that you have written Murder on his Mind about the
Speaker 7: Easter AIA rapist, and your journey and your investigation and
Speaker 7: your personal connection to your uncle and your aunt Lyman
Speaker 7: Smith and Charlene Smith, and you are through this throughout
Speaker 7: this book, looking and commenting at what you predicted early
Speaker 7: on in terms of who he might be and where
Speaker 7: he might be, and other things that you again analyze
Speaker 7: against what the the con of the the knowledge at
Speaker 7: the time was, and then you compare what your predictions were,
Speaker 7: and then your comments now tell us about some of those,
Speaker 7: including this Auburn Fulsome Road or Fulsome Road, and Citrus Heights,
Speaker 7: and the proximity to as we alluded to in the introduction,
Speaker 7: a lot of the attacks.
Speaker 6: Well, what's interesting, I never thought that he actually lived
Speaker 6: in his attack. I thought he lived outside that area. Originally,
Speaker 6: I had started to think maybe he came from my
Speaker 6: neck of the woods, which was south Sacramento, and I
Speaker 6: believe that was the city, not the county. But as
Speaker 6: time went on and I got more involved in investigating it,
Speaker 6: and I never stopped doing that. As I put out
Speaker 6: the second edition, I was still investigating and I still
Speaker 6: actually am collecting information. But what happened is I just
Speaker 6: didn't think he was in the area. I thought he
Speaker 6: you know, Paul Hols and I talked about at one
Speaker 6: point that he was dropping off the highway and He's
Speaker 6: told that in many, many interviews that he dropped off
Speaker 6: Highway eighty and so I started thinking, well, you know, probably,
Speaker 6: I mean, the frontage roads were a great way to
Speaker 6: get around back then. There's a lot of rural frontage roads,
Speaker 6: and it was obvious that DeAngelo knew his way around
Speaker 6: intimately everywhere. And he had been at Sech State and
Speaker 6: not far from there. You know the Fulsome areas there,
Speaker 6: there's it's really very small area geographically if you travel
Speaker 6: it by road by car. And what he did was
Speaker 6: he would take the Auburn Fulsome road. This is my belief.
Speaker 6: I don't have any one hundred percent proof, of course,
Speaker 6: but this is this makes the most sense. When you're
Speaker 6: in Auburn and he worked there and he lived there,
Speaker 6: you travel the Auburn Fulsom Road, you can go through
Speaker 6: the rural areas to the attacks easily in twenty minutes,
Speaker 6: and then you can return back to Auburn and go
Speaker 6: to bed and get up the next day and go
Speaker 6: to work on time. And that's what I believe he did.
Speaker 6: It makes the most sense. And that's what I talk
Speaker 6: about in my book about the chapter on Auburn, because
Speaker 6: what he did and what he managed to get away with.
Speaker 6: I also say this in my book is that it
Speaker 6: was absolutely the perfect scenario for him to do what
Speaker 6: he did, to travel that road at night. Let's say
Speaker 6: he worked at eleven o'clock at night, got off, drove
Speaker 6: down the Auburn Fulsom for twenty minutes, did his attacking,
Speaker 6: his recon did whatever he needed to do, and he
Speaker 6: could go home and get to work the next day
Speaker 6: on time. So it was absolutely perfect to nobody was
Speaker 6: looking for him there because he was in Plaster County.
Speaker 6: Plaster County is a twenty minute drive to Sacramento County.
Speaker 7: You also win this in this book. You spoke to
Speaker 7: Nick Willock, former police chief of Auburn, and he had
Speaker 7: worked under D'Angelo for about four months.
Speaker 6: No Angelo worked for him about four months.
Speaker 7: Okay, pardon me now, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: his observations and his thoughts about D'Angelo, his experience with them.
Speaker 6: Well, I had to also chat with him because I
Speaker 6: wanted to. I just really wanted to know and to
Speaker 6: try to feel settled with how they missed him in
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy nine and how they didn't see anything weird
Speaker 6: about the guy. And you know, just hear for myself
Speaker 6: what they had to say, and mister Willick was kind
Speaker 6: enough to chat with me. And when I walked away
Speaker 6: from both of these discussions about the guy and people
Speaker 6: who knew him then and worked with him, then I
Speaker 6: really was struck with the fact that it really was
Speaker 6: nothing that they saw. There was no red flag, There
Speaker 6: was no reason for them to have figured out that
Speaker 6: this was him. And I felt a lot more at
Speaker 6: peace with that after I spoke to them, and they
Speaker 6: were very kind to talk to me, because I really
Speaker 6: couldn't fathom at first. I was like, why, you know,
Speaker 6: why didn't why weren't there red flag? Why didn't they
Speaker 6: see it? Well, I can understand now from talking to
Speaker 6: them that there was nothing he did. There was nothing
Speaker 6: very weird. There was no he wasn't late to work,
Speaker 6: He showed up on time. He you know, they said.
Speaker 6: Mister Willick said he wasn't a great cop. He got
Speaker 6: too close to people, physically close. He made people uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: There were complaints filed against him, but nobody really thought
Speaker 6: anything more than that.
Speaker 7: You talk about the red flag, but what we're talking
Speaker 7: about is that he was fired for shoplifting. And you
Speaker 7: said that was given, given, given, given, the particulars. Tell
Speaker 7: us the particulars so that we know what you were
Speaker 7: referring to.
Speaker 6: Well, the thing that I still have tried to reconcile,
Speaker 6: and I talk about it a little bit in the
Speaker 6: book too, is that even if they missed him in
Speaker 6: Exeter and they missed him in Auburn, and I understand
Speaker 6: now why they did.
Speaker 4: That.
Speaker 6: When he was arrested in nineteen seventy nine, he was
Speaker 6: right in the middle of the attack zone. He was
Speaker 6: off green Back in Citrus Heights, in a store right
Speaker 6: in Sacramento County, and he was arrested for shoplifting in
Speaker 6: their county. And so what I was concerned about, of course,
Speaker 6: is why weren't there red flags then? Because he fit
Speaker 6: the descriptions and he fit the profile. And how did
Speaker 6: they miss him there? Because that's where I traced it
Speaker 6: back to Sacramento, was like, who missed it? You know?
Speaker 6: Who did this? Who missed this guy? Because in seventy nine,
Speaker 6: if he was caught, of course, all the other awful
Speaker 6: things he did would not have happened. So they prosecuted
Speaker 6: him in Sacramento County or shoplifting. He lost his job
Speaker 6: there were articles in the newspaper about it, and I
Speaker 6: just couldn't figure out why they didn't put that together. So,
Speaker 6: you know, he did move on, and he did leave Auburn,
Speaker 6: bought a house in Citrus Heights in nineteen eighty maybe
Speaker 6: the end of seventy nine eighty, and then he sat
Speaker 6: there in that neck of the woods, in the attack
Speaker 6: zone for the next thirty somewive years.
Speaker 7: So you talk about Sacramento attacks too, which I think
Speaker 7: the audience will find fascinating, is these attacks on the
Speaker 7: anniversary of his wedding to subsequent years, right, very interesting.
Speaker 6: We actually that'd be tomorrow would be his wedding anniversary,
Speaker 6: the tenth of November, and yesterday was his birthday. Yeah,
Speaker 6: he seemed to be very, very driven by events and
Speaker 6: by dates that seemed very important to him, and so
Speaker 6: that's what he did on his anniversary. For a couple
Speaker 6: of years in a row, he attacked and raped other women.
Speaker 7: Tell us how you found or the information you found
Speaker 7: regarding again, it's not definitive or make a conclusion, but
Speaker 7: just interesting in the living arrangements of the between a
Speaker 7: man and wife.
Speaker 6: Noticed well, I'm sure in other interviews mister Willick had
Speaker 6: mentioned that he had been invited over to the Angelo's
Speaker 6: home to see the home that they had purchased there
Speaker 6: and said, well, the Angelo said, well, this is my
Speaker 6: wife's room and this is my room. And he thought
Speaker 6: that was rather odd that they had separate rooms, and
Speaker 6: so he really could come and go at night, probably
Speaker 6: without much notice because they had separate rooms. So, and
Speaker 6: that's been stated in many interviews. I'm sure.
Speaker 7: You say that there are some missteps by police, and
Speaker 7: not to beat up on police, but you think there
Speaker 7: was some missteps by police by not revealing information or
Speaker 7: what is it exactly that you think there was a
Speaker 7: major misstep between the media and the sheriff's department at
Speaker 7: some point.
Speaker 6: Right, Well, hindsight is of course, and so what you
Speaker 6: want to do in Sacramento on what they did when
Speaker 6: he first began attacking, is they didn't tell the public.
Speaker 6: And of course at this day and age, probably that
Speaker 6: wouldn't have been the case. But I understand back then
Speaker 6: what they were trying to do was not let him
Speaker 6: know that they were after him, or not let him know,
Speaker 6: you know, what they were doing if they were thinking
Speaker 6: he might be a cop, they didn't want to, you know,
Speaker 6: key him in on that. So there are a lot
Speaker 6: of things that factor into why they didn't tell for
Speaker 6: five six months, and I get that, but also the
Speaker 6: other flip, they had to decide what are they going
Speaker 6: to do. They're going to tell us are they not
Speaker 6: going to tell us? And if they had told the public,
Speaker 6: maybe we could have helped him, help them catch him,
Speaker 6: maybe keep our eye open, you know, because when a
Speaker 6: criminal starts attacking and raping like he did, they make
Speaker 6: the most mistakes when they are at the beginning of
Speaker 6: what they're doing. And so if the public had known,
Speaker 6: and the people in Citrus Heights and and Rancho Cordova
Speaker 6: and all the attack areas certainly knew what was going on,
Speaker 6: and they were talking to one another, and then finally
Speaker 6: when they had the town hall meeting, they were like,
Speaker 6: what's going on? Why are we not hearing about this? So,
Speaker 6: you know, they the people in the attack zones knew
Speaker 6: and were speaking to one another, but the media didn't
Speaker 6: tell anybody in Sacramento until it's been quite some time.
Speaker 6: So that would have been nice probably to be able
Speaker 6: to you know, like I said, hindsight is twenty twenty.
Speaker 6: It would have been nice to know if we could
Speaker 6: have helped by keeping our eye open and maybe reporting
Speaker 6: what was going on, because a lot of people didn't
Speaker 6: report what was going on.
Speaker 7: You also talk about again, and this is a bigger issue,
Speaker 7: and it's an issue of the time, and we have
Speaker 7: evolved as a society in this area. But you talk
Speaker 7: about that it was a case of rape and it
Speaker 7: was a certain attitude towards rape versus other serious crime,
Speaker 7: especially for police forces that seemed to be swamped with crime.
Speaker 7: And then you talk about the the killer duo, serial
Speaker 7: killer duo of the Galagos maybe mispronounced their name, Charlene
Speaker 7: and Gerald ex police officer, tell us about how that
Speaker 7: attitudal difference played into this as well as as these
Speaker 7: serial killers working in the same area amazingly, and that
Speaker 7: for the police.
Speaker 6: Okay, Galagos was never a police officer, I think I
Speaker 6: heard you say that. But his father was a murderer
Speaker 6: and was sentenced to death. He was in the penitentiary,
Speaker 6: so anyway, he ended up being a rapist and murderer.
Speaker 6: Gallegos came to be noticed in Sacramento area in nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy eight, and of course, as we know, the Easter,
Speaker 6: a rapist was attacking still in nineteen seventy eight in
Speaker 6: Sacramento and around you know, around other areas as well,
Speaker 6: Stockton and Podesto and many other places. So they were
Speaker 6: essentially What was interesting, and I talked about it in
Speaker 6: my book too and in depth, is that di'angelo was
Speaker 6: up in the Auburn Police department. He was running over
Speaker 6: to the east part of Sacramento and committing crimes. And
Speaker 6: here comes Gerald Galagos and Charlene in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 6: and they're running up. They're picking people up at the
Speaker 6: malls near Highway eighty. They're picking women up, you know,
Speaker 6: send Charlene in to get women to come out to
Speaker 6: the car and kidnapping them, raping them. And then what
Speaker 6: they would do is take them to places right off
Speaker 6: Highway eighty to like off Bass Like Road and other
Speaker 6: places to walk them out to a remote area and
Speaker 6: then kill them. And so they were doing this at
Speaker 6: the same time that the East area rapist was running
Speaker 6: them up. And I really do think that one of
Speaker 6: the reasons that the Easterry rapists sort of wanted to
Speaker 6: lay low in seventy eight, not only because there were
Speaker 6: composites that came out from the murders in Sacramento. Maggiori murders.
Speaker 6: I think that it's conceivable to think that the Galagos
Speaker 6: were aware of the Easterry rapists, and the Easterry rapists
Speaker 6: was aware of them the serial killers. So I think
Speaker 6: that it's it's possible. And this is what I talk about,
Speaker 6: that the easter A rapists really didn't want to be
Speaker 6: running around in the same areas as a serial killer
Speaker 6: at the same time, and so he kind of went
Speaker 6: in opposite directions and then moved on. So I really
Speaker 6: think that there was an awareness that it was getting
Speaker 6: kind of hot. I mean, what's his name, Biagi, He
Speaker 6: was investigating the Gallegos at the time. M hm, I'm
Speaker 6: trying to remember lieutenant's name. But anyway, there's a lot
Speaker 6: of investigators involved in all these cases, as you can imagine.
Speaker 7: But yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 6: I was just gonna say, Highway eighty, where the murderers
Speaker 6: and the Syria serial killer at the time was running
Speaker 6: up and down, was literally, i would say, probably geographically
Speaker 6: about fifteen minute drive from where they were dumping bodies,
Speaker 6: so it was close.
Speaker 7: In all of this, dedicated people arrive are on the
Speaker 7: scene and continue with this all the way to twenty
Speaker 7: eighteen and then beyond. So you talk of some bright
Speaker 7: spots in this and police officers dedicated Detective Carol Daily,
Speaker 7: and you talk about Richard Shelby, and you talk about
Speaker 7: Larry Crompton and all of their role in making the
Speaker 7: case that there was with Richard Shelby and Prompton, that
Speaker 7: there was a connection, and that they're always and Detective
Speaker 7: Daily working much better these victims to be able to
Speaker 7: get their testimony and be able to get there give
Speaker 7: them some reassurance that the police were doing everything they
Speaker 7: could try to find this very very violent rapist. And right,
Speaker 7: so let's talk about what you learned from them. Larry
Speaker 7: Crompton writes a chapter in your book. So what does
Speaker 7: Larry Crompton say about this?
Speaker 6: Well, I think the general gist of what he has
Speaker 6: to say after the arrest, of course, is great relief.
Speaker 6: But what he wants to say, and I'll let him
Speaker 6: tell it if people want to read it. He basically
Speaker 6: the bottom line for him was that we need to
Speaker 6: learn from the past. You don't need to carry it forward,
Speaker 6: of course, but we need to learn from the past
Speaker 6: as far as working together also including the public's you
Speaker 6: know help in, you know, sort of investigating and trying
Speaker 6: to help solve crimes because we can't help, and you know,
Speaker 6: we really do talk to one another, especially these days
Speaker 6: with the virtual reality. I mean, the people who are
Speaker 6: investigating these crimes and talking to one another, they're amateur sluice,
Speaker 6: but I'll tell you what, they are really good at
Speaker 6: what they do. So it's basically he just wanted to
Speaker 6: weigh in on the fact that he was grateful that
Speaker 6: it had solved, that we should learn from the past
Speaker 6: and how we should work together. That's pretty much suggested
Speaker 6: it that there's more there. So yeah, I was real
Speaker 6: happy to have him do that. I would love to
Speaker 6: hear more about how it was to investigate the crimes
Speaker 6: back when he was doing that, and so I'm trying
Speaker 6: to encourage him he's maybe going to make some changes
Speaker 6: to his book.
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Speaker 2: Condition of Mind every details.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you can talk about some of the things though
Speaker 7: that he talks about being contacted by Paul Holes and
Speaker 7: his involvement in this. So as you do write in there,
Speaker 7: they tell us a little bit about that contact and
Speaker 7: his involvement, what he does and what he presents to
Speaker 7: Paul Holes.
Speaker 6: Right, well, let me back up just for one second
Speaker 6: to give credit to also to Carol Daily and to
Speaker 6: Richard Shelby because and Larry because and there's so many
Speaker 6: people I can't even you know, there's such a long list.
Speaker 6: That these people who originally investigated these crimes were so
Speaker 6: dedicated and so involved and so you know, invested in
Speaker 6: trying to solve these crimes. And I say in my book,
Speaker 6: I totally appreciate that in them. So if it wasn't
Speaker 6: for them, this wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 4: It.
Speaker 6: You know, they kept it in the forefront as much
Speaker 6: as they could. They talked about it forever. So I
Speaker 6: appreciate that. So I need to say that. But what
Speaker 6: Larry did with Contracosta County as he retired. Eventually he
Speaker 6: had a conversation with Paul Holes about what the boxes
Speaker 6: were that said, ear on them, because there were quite
Speaker 6: a few, from my understanding, in Contra Costa County, and
Speaker 6: so he got pall Holes up to speed on what
Speaker 6: the cases were about. At the time. I think Paul
Speaker 6: was a criminalist, and he told him that he Larry
Speaker 6: Compton said to Paul that he thought that the southern
Speaker 6: California murders were connected to the East Ay rapists, that
Speaker 6: it was the same guy, and he encouraged Paul to
Speaker 6: connect with Orange County. I believe it was in order
Speaker 6: to test the DNA, to download the profile, whatever process
Speaker 6: they went through to see if this guy was the
Speaker 6: same guy. And of course it came back that it was.
Speaker 6: And it took probably seven want or so back then,
Speaker 6: because DNA testing took a long time back then, and
Speaker 6: that was probably God, I don't remember which year exactly,
Speaker 6: it was around ninety nine, two thousand somewhere around there.
Speaker 7: What I thought most interesting, What I thought most interesting
Speaker 7: is that the sample, I mean for you and I
Speaker 7: want to get this reaction. What was it like knowing
Speaker 7: that the sample and they said was an untouched sample
Speaker 7: from Charlene Smith, the family member was used for the
Speaker 7: DNA sampling.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was interesting. I was really glad that they
Speaker 6: had preserved the sample. It was doctor sat I believe
Speaker 6: is his name, who preserved that sample that they used
Speaker 6: to get a profile from to download it to ged match.
Speaker 6: They needed to consert it is what they needed to
Speaker 6: do in order to submit it to ged match. That
Speaker 6: was good to know. Yeah, so I'm not sorry.
Speaker 7: About you talk about Barbara ray Venter and her entering
Speaker 7: into this investigation assisting Paul Holes. Who was she and
Speaker 7: what was her role here?
Speaker 6: She basically is a geneticist. She was helping people over
Speaker 6: time find their adoptive families and that kind of thing,
Speaker 6: and she was contacted by Paul Holes to find out
Speaker 6: if she would help in trying to track this guy down.
Speaker 6: She studied his profiles, she studied all the information that
Speaker 6: you know, she could find about him, and agreed to
Speaker 6: go ahead and try to help find his relatives. They
Speaker 6: had to go back to his great great great grandfather
Speaker 6: in time to try to trace the tree down. I
Speaker 6: think they started with twenty five trees and had to
Speaker 6: slowly work down generation after generation. So yes, but she's
Speaker 6: been wonderful in this case, and for a while she
Speaker 6: didn't want to be identified, and I don't blame her,
Speaker 6: but she did definitely break the case.
Speaker 7: Right, we're going to use this as an opportunity to
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Speaker 7: ship happen. Now we talked about the role of Barbara
Speaker 7: Ventor working in conjunction with Paul Holes. What's interesting is
Speaker 7: your assessment and your take on the law enforcement and
Speaker 7: with the assistant of the FBI near the end or
Speaker 7: in the last couple of years, you talk about orchestration.
Speaker 7: Tell us what you what you write about in that
Speaker 7: orchestration by law enforcement, right.
Speaker 6: And what I should say is basically what it looked
Speaker 6: like from probably a lot of people's perspectives really is
Speaker 6: that they had the DNA, they had the profile all
Speaker 6: this time since about two thousand and eighteen years and
Speaker 6: as technology developed and things changed and things got better
Speaker 6: and easier to do, a lot of conversation was had about,
Speaker 6: you know, taking the profile and downloading it to try
Speaker 6: to see if there's a match, because there was no
Speaker 6: match on the codis or other places where law enforcement
Speaker 6: has access to and so for a long time, you
Speaker 6: know a lot of us were hearing that they were
Speaker 6: going to try to see if it was if they
Speaker 6: had the ability or if they would be able to
Speaker 6: download it into some site like that. Ancestry or someplace else.
Speaker 6: And of course there were privacy issues, and I had
Speaker 6: heard that some of these main genealogy sites would give
Speaker 6: up information if they were given a what do you
Speaker 6: call it a court order? But but what happens then
Speaker 6: is here you are trying to get a court order
Speaker 6: for somebody that you don't know his identity. You don't
Speaker 6: have the information to download to your at crossroads, you're stuck.
Speaker 6: And so for a long time I figured the delays
Speaker 6: in getting that done were because of privacy issues and
Speaker 6: so on what I just mentioned. But what happened eventually was,
Speaker 6: of course they found ged match, and it was sort
Speaker 6: of an open public forum where you sign a thing
Speaker 6: that says if you put your DNA and hear your
Speaker 6: profile in here, at least that it's, you know, an
Speaker 6: open kind of thing. You're wanting to find somebody, they're
Speaker 6: wanting to find you. And so you know, there was
Speaker 6: not the privacy issue is that had been encountered with
Speaker 6: other sites. But what I say in my book and
Speaker 6: what I'm asking about, and I'm asking a lot of
Speaker 6: questions like, well, how come it took so long? What
Speaker 6: happened was because I wish that D'Angelo was ten years
Speaker 6: younger than he is. I wish that it had been
Speaker 6: happening ten years ago, but you know, wishing doesn't make it.
Speaker 6: So so what I wondered was why did it take
Speaker 6: so long? Ged Match was around it since about twenty ten,
Speaker 6: and so we have eight years of sort of waiting
Speaker 6: to see and then maybe they didn't know, but eventually
Speaker 6: what happened was in twenty thirteen, I know that they
Speaker 6: were discussing doing exactly the same thing. So that's five
Speaker 6: years ago. And so what my question was was like,
Speaker 6: why did it take so long? You know, if we
Speaker 6: knew we had his profile, and we knew that we
Speaker 6: had these abilities, why did it take so long? And
Speaker 6: that's really pretty much what I wanted to know. I'm
Speaker 6: sure a lot of people wanted to know why it
Speaker 6: took so long and what it would have been nice
Speaker 6: to It would have been nice to be able to
Speaker 6: punish the guy a lot sooner. What did I find
Speaker 6: out just that I think it took a lot of
Speaker 6: sort of research trying to figure out how to do
Speaker 6: it and who to you know, who you could contact
Speaker 6: to help you research it and to get it right. So,
Speaker 6: you know, like I said, the time frame was the timeframe,
Speaker 6: and but it just to me the last three four
Speaker 6: years of course, in particular, I kept wondering, how come
Speaker 6: it's ticking, you know. So I'm just glad that they
Speaker 6: finally caught him.
Speaker 7: Certainly, now you write in your book about a couple
Speaker 7: cases that are either under investigation or you have your
Speaker 7: ideas about are both. And so we're talking about October sixteenth,
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty, Kathleen Neff, what are your ideas about this murder?
Speaker 6: Now they may have, of course I don't get to
Speaker 6: talk to law enforcement about what they're currently investigating. Nobody does.
Speaker 6: They know what they're looking at and who was murdered
Speaker 6: or who vanished or whatever happened. And they're trying to
Speaker 6: figure out if he was involved in particular cases like
Speaker 6: the one for Miss neph But you know, she was
Speaker 6: abducted off of Florine Road area, which was south Sacramento,
Speaker 6: not far from Fourth Parkway attack in nineteen eighty and
Speaker 6: she was found her body was found not too far
Speaker 6: off of Highway. Its paralleled off of Highway ninety nine
Speaker 6: south we go south and the body was dumped out
Speaker 6: there and was found by pheasant hunters and they found
Speaker 6: her on November eighth of nineteen eighty, so that was
Speaker 6: never solved. It's on the Sacramento County website. And there
Speaker 6: are other cases, of course. I'm sure they're looking into
Speaker 6: and we will find out eventually who was connected to
Speaker 6: know what murder, because DNA is rapidly helping us catch people.
Speaker 6: But yeah, there's a lot of different things they're trying
Speaker 6: to connect the dots to. Of course I have not
Speaker 6: got a line on that. I just put a particular
Speaker 6: case in because I thought, wow, this is right in
Speaker 6: the neck of the woods where not only did somebody
Speaker 6: try to abduct the woman off Florin Road in right
Speaker 6: around the same time as the Maggiori murders, this perpetrator
Speaker 6: knew the area really well. He according to summer reports,
Speaker 6: almost fell into the creek behind Fourth Parkway, so he
Speaker 6: knew the area and he was seen there and was there.
Speaker 6: So it makes sense to me if he was in
Speaker 6: that area. He lived in Citrus Heights in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 6: why would he not continue his crimes And he could
Speaker 6: have been peeping and breaking and entering who knows, And
Speaker 6: so we think that the connections to things ongoing from
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty on that he could have been involved with
Speaker 6: in Sacramento area.
Speaker 7: You include a woman named Sue and her story. You
Speaker 7: call it Sue's story nineteen eighty three and her husband
Speaker 7: wakes up and see a man in the bedroom. Tell
Speaker 7: us about this story and what they found, and the
Speaker 7: follow up later as their not husband and wife anymore.
Speaker 6: Right, Well, they had never heard really about the Easter
Speaker 6: Ay rapist until just in the last couple of years.
Speaker 6: But when one of the shows that was on television
Speaker 6: came on, they both communicated with one another. Although they're
Speaker 6: in different states now. Sue and her ex husband and
Speaker 6: at the time in nineteen eighty three, the perpetrator had
Speaker 6: broken into their home and her husband woke up and
Speaker 6: saw him standing at the end of their bed and
Speaker 6: was looking out the window. And he pretended to be asleep,
Speaker 6: and Sue was asleep, and he didn't move, and he
Speaker 6: didn't blink, and he didn't breathe, and this guy was
Speaker 6: looking out the window and something made him go from
Speaker 6: that room, out of the room to the I believe
Speaker 6: it was the kitchen area or somewhere in the house. Anyway,
Speaker 6: they called the police and were told that they thought
Speaker 6: the guy was on the extension in the other room,
Speaker 6: and so they came out and took a report, and
Speaker 6: they were concerned that the guy would come back. So
Speaker 6: there wasn't a lot of follow up on it at
Speaker 6: the time because it was nineteen eighty three and nobody
Speaker 6: was thinking any stereo rapist, and you know, but there
Speaker 6: were sightings, there were people that had prowlings. There are
Speaker 6: people who had you know, these kinds of experiences in
Speaker 6: that area. And this is also in the attack areas
Speaker 6: that Sue and her husband lived in, and so she
Speaker 6: of course reported this to Sech County sheriffs and so on.
Speaker 6: So you know, there were things that happened after my
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty But in my book, I was saying that
Speaker 6: really I thought he was laying low, and he really did.
Speaker 6: I mean, he's kind of off the grid from about
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty to when he started working in nineteen ninety
Speaker 6: ninety one at the grocery store there in the distribution center,
Speaker 6: so it's harder to track him for about ten years there.
Speaker 6: So that'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
Speaker 7: You right too, that it's interesting you say that the
Speaker 7: Janelle cruise in nineteen eighty and a parton me in
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty six. He lived down the street from where
Speaker 7: your son lives now and your grandfather is buried.
Speaker 6: Correct. Yep, it was a six minute drive from where
Speaker 6: my son lives to where he is. And I was
Speaker 6: nervous all this time about the fact that I knew
Speaker 6: he was in Sacramento. Absolutely in my gut knew he
Speaker 6: was still there because he was Eric end.
Speaker 7: So yeah, you talk about the one hundred and twenty
Speaker 7: three page redacted statement redacted documents from his arrest warrant,
Speaker 7: and you said they were glad that they were released
Speaker 7: to the public that the judge did that. One hundred
Speaker 7: and twenty three pages talk about details of the suspected
Speaker 7: murders of Brian and Katie Maggiori, and also including murders
Speaker 7: of Lineman and Charlene Smith, your family members, right, How
Speaker 7: interesting or how interesting was reading that information and what
Speaker 7: anything new for you?
Speaker 6: A lot of it was, you know, of course blacked out,
Speaker 6: But the bottom line for me in looking at that
Speaker 6: was it was just confirmation of what a lot of
Speaker 6: auth already knew that had looked into these cases and
Speaker 6: have been aware. All the people that you know pay
Speaker 6: attention to the details of these cases, that he was
Speaker 6: suspected of being Vicelli Tecker, and that they law enforcement
Speaker 6: thought that he was. They concurred. They just the different
Speaker 6: things that you know that he was charged with the
Speaker 6: Smith murders, he was charged with Brian and Katie Maggiori murders,
Speaker 6: just confirmation. Really, the redacted statements just said to me
Speaker 6: that and to everybody that they really did believe that
Speaker 6: he was the guy that did all these things and
Speaker 6: it was all connected. So that's what it meant to me.
Speaker 7: You do talk about some details that you learned, and
Speaker 7: and you do make a correction of I guess a
Speaker 7: media report involving Lynmon Smith and Charlene Smith in terms
Speaker 7: of the partner that was accused and the reason why
Speaker 7: he was exonerated to tell us the details.
Speaker 6: Of that, well, I was just saying in the business
Speaker 6: partner who was originally charged in the murders and put
Speaker 6: in jail actually for a year. They never did pursue
Speaker 6: the case. They dismissed the charges because the only evidence
Speaker 6: that they really had was the preacher who had been
Speaker 6: a counselor to he and his wife, had said that
Speaker 6: he had confessed to the crimes and they had. They
Speaker 6: spent the whole year trying to determine if this preacher
Speaker 6: was credible, and it turned out that he had inserted
Speaker 6: himself in cases before and that he basically was lying,
Speaker 6: and so they didn't pursue the case and they dropped
Speaker 6: the charges. The only other evidence they had was a
Speaker 6: fingerprint on the wineglass, and the business associate had said, yeah,
Speaker 6: I'd been there the night before and had a glass
Speaker 6: of line with them, But there was no DNA, There
Speaker 6: was no other evidence to connect them, and eventually he
Speaker 6: was cleared when DNA caught up with the world. He
Speaker 6: was cleared, you know, through DNA. So that was part
Speaker 6: of one of the things that you know, people went
Speaker 6: off on different areas, you know, each county went off
Speaker 6: on different suspects in different scenarios, and they thought that
Speaker 6: a lot of these crimes had been committed by people
Speaker 6: who maybe the victims had known, and so, you know,
Speaker 6: there were things that happened that kind of got in
Speaker 6: the way of it, sort of obscured the view of
Speaker 6: who the real perpetrator was and that we were really
Speaker 6: looking at a serial killer, not just some random guy
Speaker 6: that knew each couple.
Speaker 7: So another really fascinating part of this book is again
Speaker 7: something I didn't know. But that's why I go to
Speaker 7: read your books in the first place. Regarding this case,
Speaker 7: Mark Smith and the question of ballistics, you say it
Speaker 7: was watching Cold Case Files with Bill Curtis, and I've
Speaker 7: watched that program and the episode about Easter Area rapist.
Speaker 7: Tell us what they stayed in that episode interestingly and
Speaker 7: what he gets from it and his reaction and what
Speaker 7: he does as a result.
Speaker 6: Well, he saw the show on television like most of
Speaker 6: us did long ago, and back in the day when
Speaker 6: this was first put on the air. It was I
Speaker 6: don't remember if it was two thousand, it was quite
Speaker 6: some time ago. They had said on the show that
Speaker 6: they thought it was law enforcement, and Mark Smith questions,
Speaker 6: how did they know that? Who did they hit that
Speaker 6: information from? But at the time, that was his first
Speaker 6: introduction to the case, and he was fascinated by it
Speaker 6: and decided that he would follow it and figured eventually
Speaker 6: they would have caught him. Well, that wasn't the case.
Speaker 6: He followed the case and realized that the guy was
Speaker 6: still free and they hadn't figured it out. So he
Speaker 6: continued to research and continued to, you know, check it
Speaker 6: out and try to figure it out. And eventually I
Speaker 6: met him because of one of the books that I wrote.
Speaker 6: But he's really great at ballistics and firearm information and
Speaker 6: tried to teach me what he was talking about.
Speaker 7: Yes, one of the great questions. What he was saying
Speaker 7: is that that the ammunition that and he talks about it,
Speaker 7: the one hundred and ten grain super Valamo ammunition, Not
Speaker 7: that I know anything about it, but he said at
Speaker 7: that time he researched it was only available to lawforenforcement
Speaker 7: or security officers, and he began to question law enforcement
Speaker 7: in Santa Barbara regarding ballistics and then introduced to your
Speaker 7: book and contacted you.
Speaker 6: Right, well, the Santa Barbara stuff just came out in
Speaker 6: the last few months in an article saying that they
Speaker 6: had nothing but ballistics evidence, and he was like, really,
Speaker 6: so Santa Barbara hadn't shared that, I don't think, at
Speaker 6: least not with the public. But anyway, he was trying
Speaker 6: to figure out what the story was, and that's why
Speaker 6: he put a chapter in my book to talk about
Speaker 6: the ballistics involved in the fact that this type of
Speaker 6: ammunition was not available to just you and I it
Speaker 6: was just available well to law enforcement or security people,
Speaker 6: and that's why it should be. It should have been
Speaker 6: looked at more aggressively maybe, and that's what the chapter
Speaker 6: is about.
Speaker 7: You also talk about this interesting story that comes out
Speaker 7: and you say it could be true, and you include
Speaker 7: it because it could be true about the environment that
Speaker 7: di'angelo grew up in, and then the trauma that reportedly
Speaker 7: his sister's husband later recounted as.
Speaker 6: Actually it was I think his was his sister's son,
Speaker 6: so it would have been his nephew that recounted it.
Speaker 7: If I'm not mistracing, that's right, sister's son exactly. Okay,
Speaker 7: So what is that trauma and tell us about that.
Speaker 7: I think that's very interesting.
Speaker 6: Well, the report was in the interview was that the
Speaker 6: possibility that when D'Angelo was ten years old that he
Speaker 6: saw his sister, who was about seven at the time,
Speaker 6: be raped by I think it was two men. And
Speaker 6: this was in Germany when they were stationed there, his
Speaker 6: father was stationed there in the service. And also he
Speaker 6: talks about how the family didn't know this. It was
Speaker 6: a secret. Nobody talked about it. They were told not
Speaker 6: to talk about it, which is not surprising. Back in
Speaker 6: the nineteen fifties. These are the kinds of things that
Speaker 6: you didn't talk about and you didn't get help for.
Speaker 6: So if he and his sister were traumatized by it,
Speaker 6: they didn't receive any out for it. So I'm sure
Speaker 6: it had to be very confusing for him at the time.
Speaker 7: You talk about that, and you talk about his parents
Speaker 7: split and then it was a step father. What else
Speaker 7: did you what else did you find information about his
Speaker 7: back round?
Speaker 6: Well, just that you know, he looked he was a
Speaker 6: Vietnam vet. He came back and went back to school
Speaker 6: and was engaged briefly to another woman. Uh, and that's Bonnie.
Speaker 6: And then also and that's the Bonnie that people talk
Speaker 6: about that he was mentioning when he was attacking people,
Speaker 6: but also that he you know, became a police officer.
Speaker 6: He you know, graduated from college, He went to Rooseveil,
Speaker 6: did an internship there in the police department, wasn't hired there,
Speaker 6: moved on to Exeter and then Auburn, and uh, there's
Speaker 6: a gap in his employment from about seventy nine. We
Speaker 6: don't know exactly what he did, but maybe law enforcement does.
Speaker 6: I'm not privy to that. But yeah, his family background
Speaker 6: sounds like he had a maybe a controlling mother, a
Speaker 6: father who was a disciplinarian that was was rather be
Speaker 6: FIV relationships. That's what I can gather from what I've read.
Speaker 7: It was interesting too, you say you got a job
Speaker 7: his internship at Roseville, and then you talk about your
Speaker 7: marriage just a few weeks eight weeks or so after
Speaker 7: your aunt and uncle were killed, and that reception was
Speaker 7: at Roseville, wasn't it?
Speaker 6: It was? The wedding was in Auburn. I mean, that's
Speaker 6: what I've made, is right, if I tried. I was
Speaker 6: married in Auburn in nineteen eighty I had been going
Speaker 6: there from nineteen seventy six until nineteen eighty three. I
Speaker 6: loved the area. Was going there to hike, to swim
Speaker 6: in the river, to just you know, eating good restaurants.
Speaker 6: And I loved the Gold Country little towns like Grass
Speaker 6: Valley and different places. And so I would work in Sacramento.
Speaker 6: I lived in Sacramento. When we would drive up after work,
Speaker 6: we would many times hop in the car and go
Speaker 6: to boreoal Ridge and ski off Highway eighty. This is
Speaker 6: also during that same time timeframe, but we were married
Speaker 6: there in nineteen eighty and the church was like you
Speaker 6: could practically hit the police department with the rock from
Speaker 6: where I was married. Yeah, so yeah, just I mean
Speaker 6: I lived like Kirby Way in Roseville. The reception was
Speaker 6: in Rodesville, which is right down the road from where
Speaker 6: DiAngelo lived. I used to shop at the grocery store
Speaker 6: not far from there. He may have done the same.
Speaker 6: I mean, this story. I didn't want this story. Who would.
Speaker 6: It just is what it is, and so eventually I
Speaker 6: had to write and get it out of my system.
Speaker 7: Yes, well, I don't know if it's complete out of
Speaker 7: your system. What's interesting In the book too, we mentioned
Speaker 7: this woman Bonnie, but I thought, if you want to
Speaker 7: put psychological traumatic events together, they're engaged to make an announcement.
Speaker 7: Months later she marries another man, and then a few
Speaker 7: months later he married another woman. So not long after
Speaker 7: he's engaged to another woman. So mm hmm, yeah, I
Speaker 7: thought that must be. That might be telling to see
Speaker 7: that engagement in all that hoopla over that pending wedding
Speaker 7: and then for it to be canceled and she just
Speaker 7: married another man.
Speaker 6: So m yeah, And in my research and I'm not
Speaker 6: it looks like from what I've seen, that this woman
Speaker 6: that he was engaged to, and I'm trying to keep
Speaker 6: some privacy for the people that are really not involved
Speaker 6: in what this criminal ended up doing. She was in
Speaker 6: the area, and I believe may still be in the area,
Speaker 6: and I think that one of the reasons he stayed there,
Speaker 6: besides his arrogance, is because she was there all these years.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, you.
Speaker 7: Talk too that Joseph DiAngelo got a job that a
Speaker 7: district center save marked grocery store and he'd worked there
Speaker 7: for twenty seven years, And you said coworker saw him
Speaker 7: as a family man. But there was some talk, I
Speaker 7: mean when it first came out, too, there was talk
Speaker 7: about what the neighbors thought. That's the first people they
Speaker 7: spoke to. What was his work like, what was the
Speaker 7: relationship there with employees there and bosses.
Speaker 6: Well, from what everybody's probably read who were interested in case,
Speaker 6: the coworkers didn't see anything wrong with them at all.
Speaker 6: They thought of him as a family man. They didn't
Speaker 6: see anything at all. They were actually concerned that the
Speaker 6: DNA could be wrong, some of them. So yeah, there
Speaker 6: was no red flags with them either. He was really
Speaker 6: good at compartmentalizing himself and showing the world what they
Speaker 6: needed to see, that he was a grandfather and other
Speaker 6: and you know, just just a guy.
Speaker 7: The idea that he had a tough childhood is you've
Speaker 7: got that enough of that information that it was an
Speaker 7: abusive household. You do talk about that. It looks like that.
Speaker 7: You know that his father was beating up the mother.
Speaker 7: So this is things he did see in this household
Speaker 7: and did affect him. You did. You did say, interestingly, though,
Speaker 7: that when his nephew talks about this air force base attack,
Speaker 7: that the sister and the pardon me that de'angelo himself
Speaker 7: and the sister have never mentioned it. Incidentally, not the
Speaker 7: best proof of it at all, but they've never mentioned it, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, supposedly, as a story goes, and his sister had
Speaker 6: talked to her son about this when she was dying.
Speaker 6: She's passed away since then, and so he had heard
Speaker 6: that from his own mother, and that his mother told
Speaker 6: him that she used to get hit by DiAngelo's mother.
Speaker 6: You know, she was the one who got the brunt
Speaker 6: of the physical abuse. So yeah, so the stories are
Speaker 6: out there, the articles are out there about that. I
Speaker 6: wanted to before I forget, because it's important when we
Speaker 6: talk about this case and when we talk about D'Angelo,
Speaker 6: and we talk about all of this as though he
Speaker 6: has already been proven guilty. My disclaimer, and the disclaimer
Speaker 6: is is that he is innocent until proven guilty in
Speaker 6: a court of law. And so you know, that's the
Speaker 6: thing that I have to mention because it's important, you know,
Speaker 6: in this justice system that he has his day in court,
Speaker 6: and as much as he is connected to this case
Speaker 6: by DNA and other evidence, he will get his dand court.
Speaker 6: So I have to make sure that that I say
Speaker 6: that because it's really true.
Speaker 7: Now you wouldn't want violate his rights or anything. Let's
Speaker 7: talk about this impending trial. You estimate that it will
Speaker 7: be a few years. Why so long? And what is
Speaker 7: going on behind the scenes in terms of organization for
Speaker 7: this joint trialogy right, Well, what I've.
Speaker 6: Been told is that it will take probably about four years.
Speaker 6: That's the estimation of time. And the reason is because
Speaker 6: this trial will be unprecedented in that it will have
Speaker 6: multiple jurisdictions who will try them try him in Sacramento
Speaker 6: at the same time. And so that's you know, that's
Speaker 6: a new thing. And of course there's discovery. The defense
Speaker 6: attorneys require all the information and also the time to
Speaker 6: study the get up to speed on the case. So
Speaker 6: that's why it's it's a huge case. It's extremely detailed,
Speaker 6: there's a ton of information, and it's going to take
Speaker 6: a while. And so the estimate originally I had heard
Speaker 6: five years, and now it's like four. So we'll see
Speaker 6: when it happens, and you know, what could happen in
Speaker 6: the meantime, we don't know. One of the other things
Speaker 6: I have to clarify too real quickly is in this
Speaker 6: case and in my books, I've talked about who I
Speaker 6: am and how I'm connected to the case. And I
Speaker 6: have to also mention that I have told in detail
Speaker 6: in my books who I am and how I'm connected
Speaker 6: to the case. But for people who haven't read the books,
Speaker 6: they don't know all the detail. And so I have
Speaker 6: to tell you that I am a step granddaughter of
Speaker 6: Lyman Jones Smith, and I've said that in my books,
Speaker 6: and I've said that in identifying myself all along. I
Speaker 6: was two when my grandparents introduced me to them to him,
Speaker 6: and I was three when my grandmother married Lymon Jones
Speaker 6: Smith and Lyman Jones Smith is Lyman Robert Smith's father,
Speaker 6: and that is Jennifer Smith's father. So I just want
Speaker 6: to clarify that because for some reason there are people
Speaker 6: who have missed that detail. I have never not said
Speaker 6: that detail. I've always identified myself as a three year
Speaker 6: old whose grandfather came into my world, married my grandma
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty and was my grandfather all of my
Speaker 6: life until he was away pretty much in Sacramento, and
Speaker 6: he lived up in Tahoe as well. So just wanted
Speaker 6: to clarify that because there seems to be some misinformation
Speaker 6: or somebody has missed that detail somewhere. But it's in
Speaker 6: the books, every single one of them right anyway, So
Speaker 6: thank you for letting me clarify that.
Speaker 7: What about the alias and pen Why the alias?
Speaker 6: Well, I was worried, you know, when I was writing
Speaker 6: these books. Of course, originally I thought about putting it
Speaker 6: out under my real name, but I know the guy
Speaker 6: was still free, he was still nearby. That was my opinion,
Speaker 6: and so when I met and spoke to Larry Crompton,
Speaker 6: he told me, Laurie, don't tell who you are. My
Speaker 6: real name is Laurie, as you know, and pen Slash Lurie,
Speaker 6: And what I did was write the first book, and
Speaker 6: he convinced me to not even put my family story
Speaker 6: in there or my connection. So I pulled it all
Speaker 6: out of the book and I put it out under
Speaker 6: and Penn and I removed as much of my original
Speaker 6: story as I could. But I did try to stand
Speaker 6: up for Charlene and Lyman Smith because they were victims
Speaker 6: of a criminal who randomly killed them as far as
Speaker 6: I know, and people said a lot of pretty harsh
Speaker 6: stuff about the Smith family or the Smith murders at
Speaker 6: the time, and I just thought, wow, this is these
Speaker 6: people are victims. They need to be remembered as people
Speaker 6: who were human and had flaws, but they were people,
Speaker 6: nonetheless who did not deserve what this criminal did. And
Speaker 6: that's true of all of the victims in this case.
Speaker 6: And so I wanted to honor the victims. And that's
Speaker 6: why I wrote what I did, and then I put
Speaker 6: out the second edition because I didn't feel like it
Speaker 6: was complete. I needed. People were like, well, who are you?
Speaker 6: Why do you care about this so much? I care
Speaker 6: because I watched my grandfather, our grandfather pretty much fall
Speaker 6: apart when the murders occurred, and the story of the
Speaker 6: bludgeoning was so horrendous that I couldn't even comprehend it,
Speaker 6: and I hid it from my own mind for years
Speaker 6: because it was so awful and I was so afraid,
Speaker 6: And so I still put it out under end Penn
Speaker 6: because he was still free. And then he's been caught,
Speaker 6: and now people know who Anne Penn is, and that,
Speaker 6: you know, if they've followed anything that I've written about.
Speaker 6: I'm still using that. Who knows who's still out there,
Speaker 6: you know, so as far as like any associates or
Speaker 6: anybody else that might be involved here. So I'm trying
Speaker 6: to be careful and also true to my story and
Speaker 6: then also follow the crimes and get sort of the
Speaker 6: story out there. Actually, after this happened, after D'Angelo was arrested,
Speaker 6: the last thing I wanted to do was write anything
Speaker 6: more about this guy. And I had people say are
Speaker 6: you going to write? Are you going to?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I wanted to write something else, completely, something happy and light,
Speaker 6: and people were asking me, yeah, people were asking me, well,
Speaker 6: are you going to, you know, write something else, You're
Speaker 6: going to you know, do something, And so I added
Speaker 6: a couple of chapters to Murder on his mind Serial
Speaker 6: Killer the second edition about the fact that Giangelo was
Speaker 6: arrested and what we knew so far. And this was
Speaker 6: back in like May of twenty eighteen, and then, as
Speaker 6: you know, information came along and I had a million questions.
Speaker 6: That's what I put in this book, my questions about
Speaker 6: what happened, How did we miss this guy, what did
Speaker 6: he do? Who was he? How you know? What do
Speaker 6: we know? And so that's how this book came to be.
Speaker 7: How much more did you get confirmed since that initial
Speaker 7: time when you got those initial details to verify or
Speaker 7: confirm some of your assertions and assumptions and ideas. How
Speaker 7: much did that change and what are those What were
Speaker 7: you convinced of as a result.
Speaker 6: Well, of course, as you know, I thought he was
Speaker 6: in Sacramento, and I thought he was they'd never left,
Speaker 6: and that he was law enforcement. So of course I
Speaker 6: got confirmation that that was true, and all the stories
Speaker 6: that come out about in TAngelo. I was just surprised
Speaker 6: that I thought he had become a police officer after
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty six, that was really what I thought. I
Speaker 6: also thought he was younger than he turned out to be.
Speaker 6: I was hoping he was younger, so he could be
Speaker 6: I stronger. Just different things that I thought about where
Speaker 6: he lived, where he was, what he did, turned out
Speaker 6: to be true. And that's I've put that in this
Speaker 6: book also sort of what I said and Murder on
Speaker 6: his Mind and what turned out to be true the comparison,
Speaker 6: and it was a lot of information about his family,
Speaker 6: about what type of mommy had, what his position in
Speaker 6: the family was, that he was the oldest son, that
Speaker 6: he had siblings, a brother and a sister. It's just
Speaker 6: a lot of different things that I said in my
Speaker 6: original book from studying not only serial killers, but from
Speaker 6: studying case things that turned out to be true.
Speaker 7: Yes. Absolutely. One more thing that I found was very
Speaker 7: interesting is that in Murder on His Mind your books
Speaker 7: about this case, and I've asked you about this as well,
Speaker 7: is that with your own personal attack that you think
Speaker 7: that could be related that you've included in your book
Speaker 7: in that you don't put to rest the notion because
Speaker 7: you include another story where there's two people involved for
Speaker 7: this case. Did you put that to rest or is
Speaker 7: that still up in the air as a possibility.
Speaker 6: Well, from what I understand, it is up in the air,
Speaker 6: and it is a possibility. But that being said, you know,
Speaker 6: we're letting law enforcement do their job and investigate and
Speaker 6: do what they do. We'll find out the details maybe eventually.
Speaker 6: But yeah, Originally, when I was chased down my street
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy one, it was by two men in
Speaker 6: a truck. And there's been a speculation over time in
Speaker 6: this case whether or not there were two different men,
Speaker 6: two different descriptions weights, you know, dark hair versus light hair,
Speaker 6: and so on and so, and there was even speculation
Speaker 6: about the Maggioria murders that there might have been two people.
Speaker 6: But what occurred in the last year is Sheriff's detective
Speaker 6: Ken Clarke came out and he said he went into
Speaker 6: great detail on a podcast about the fact that the
Speaker 6: Maggia murders were believed to be Easter a rapist as
Speaker 6: the perpetrator, and he went into great detail about why
Speaker 6: people believe that and how they investigated it and why
Speaker 6: they didn't know it so clearly back in the seventies.
Speaker 6: And so that was a good thing to hear and
Speaker 6: to know. But I don't know, it's just so much
Speaker 6: detail in this case. I'm telling you that there could
Speaker 6: be there could have been more than one person involved,
Speaker 6: but law enforcement will, i'm sure, investigate all of the
Speaker 6: leads and all of the information.
Speaker 7: I'm sure you're really curious to what can be derived
Speaker 7: and be known and learned from the trial that you
Speaker 7: say might take four years. You do speculate in this
Speaker 7: or that, and then other police may believe this as well.
Speaker 7: But you theorize something. Tell us about him possibly traveling
Speaker 7: and continuing tell us about your theory about that.
Speaker 6: Well, you know what's interesting is I don't know that
Speaker 6: he went too far from this whole area all this time,
Speaker 6: meaning in California, but there could be cases, of course
Speaker 6: that they connect the dots across the country, you know,
Speaker 6: if he traveled anywhere, if he was anywhere I mentioned
Speaker 6: something about, I'm really interested to find out where he
Speaker 6: was specifically in nineteen eighty eight, because I really think
Speaker 6: that he may have will not only attacked somebody, but
Speaker 6: possibly murdered somebody in that year. But that's just my
Speaker 6: gut feel about it. From looking into his timelines, the
Speaker 6: importance he places on events and just you know, anniversaries
Speaker 6: and just those kinds of things, there's no important to him.
Speaker 7: Can you tell us more about this case?
Speaker 6: Well, in nineteen eighty one, of course, he had a daughter.
Speaker 6: In nineteen eighty six he had a daughter, nineteen ninety
Speaker 6: had a daughter. And we know what he did in
Speaker 6: eighty one and eighty six as far as murdering people,
Speaker 6: because he did commit murders in those timeframes. But also
Speaker 6: in nineteen eighty eight, all of a sudden, he's off
Speaker 6: the radar, he's off the grid. And what did he
Speaker 6: do that year? His wife was pregnant that year, So
Speaker 6: I suspect that there was something, you know, that was
Speaker 6: his reaction to whatever stress there was involved, I think
Speaker 6: with being pregnant, and not long after the third child
Speaker 6: was born, he and his wife separated within a couple
Speaker 6: of years, so in a very small child when when
Speaker 6: she left with the kids.
Speaker 7: And restraining order as well, isn't it.
Speaker 6: I had seen a restraining order at one point, yeah,
Speaker 6: towards him.
Speaker 7: Interesting with this case, unlike the case suffering for so
Speaker 7: many years from at least some law enforcement not taking
Speaker 7: as seriously as it should have been. Thankfully, luckily there
Speaker 7: was law enforcement like Richard Shelby, Carol Day, Larry Crompton
Speaker 7: and others, Ken Clark, all kinds of other people and
Speaker 7: then you mentioned and give credit to them in this
Speaker 7: book as well. But now law enforcement is very seriously
Speaker 7: looking at any other possibilities for this killer, aren't they.
Speaker 6: Of course, yes, yeah, as it should, and yeah, it'd
Speaker 6: be interesting to find out, you know what the story
Speaker 6: shows us later on. So I'm sure that they are
Speaker 6: very very busy and trying to connect all the dots.
Speaker 6: Everybody wants as many crimes solved as possible, and there's
Speaker 6: a lot of cold cases, and certainly in the state
Speaker 6: of California, you know, there hadn't seemed to be any
Speaker 6: that fit his MO over time, and even looked at
Speaker 6: cases across the United States. And the thing that's interesting
Speaker 6: about this particular perpetrator is this he was able and
Speaker 6: smart enough to change his mo He changed it up
Speaker 6: over and over. That only did he try to abduct women,
Speaker 6: but he attacked in homes, and he attacked in different
Speaker 6: ways in different places, and he didn't stick to the
Speaker 6: same thing all the time. So he changed it up
Speaker 6: over time in any way he felt like he needed
Speaker 6: to to try to keep people from realizing that it
Speaker 6: was the same guy, and he was successful at that
Speaker 6: for a very long time. So that's what's different about
Speaker 6: this guy? He was able to change and more if
Speaker 6: he was like a chameleon really and very successful at it.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, I want to thank you very much and pen
Speaker 7: or Lorie for coming on talking about the creep among
Speaker 7: a Golden State Killer after the rest. For those that
Speaker 7: might want to check out your other work concerning the
Speaker 7: Easter Aeo rapist, how might they do that? And do
Speaker 7: you have a website Facebook page?
Speaker 6: Well, of course the books are all on Amazon under
Speaker 6: and pen and it's a N N E P E
Speaker 6: N N. But also I have a Facebook page and
Speaker 6: pen and then also I have a word press blog
Speaker 6: that's and penn at WordPress, so I have, you know,
Speaker 6: different ways that you can see what I've been posting
Speaker 6: and talking about our articles, et cetera. And like I said,
Speaker 6: the books are all there, so I'm hoping to put
Speaker 6: them on sale actually pretty soon, so that'd be cool.
Speaker 6: Maybe I can get to that this So absolutely that's good.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much and for coming on and talking
Speaker 7: about this. I know this is in the end of
Speaker 7: the story and I know we'll be talking to you
Speaker 7: again about this, so thank you very much. You have
Speaker 7: a great evening and talk to you again. Real soon.
Speaker 6: Good Night, Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. Good Night,
Speaker 6: good night,