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Every 35 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.920 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 36 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 37 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.079 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 38 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.599 Good Evening. No other event in the last fifty years 39 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.079 is shrouded in myth like the nineteen ninety three siege 40 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:53.120 of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Today, we remember 41 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:56.599 this moment for the seventy six people, including twenty children, 42 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.519 who died in the fire, or its inspiration of the 43 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.359 Oklahoma Alma City bombing, and for the wave of anti 44 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:06.560 government militaryism that followed. What we understand far less is 45 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:11.840 what motivated Davidian's enigmatic leader, David Koresh. Drawing on first 46 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:15.639 time exclusive interviews with Koresh's family and survivors of the siege, 47 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:20.439 best selling author Stephen Talty paints a psychological portrait of 48 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.759 this infamous icon of the nineteen nineties, born Vernon Howell 49 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:27.680 into the hyper masculine world of Central Texas. In the 50 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:32.199 nineteen sixties, Koresh experienced a childhood riven with abuse and isolation. 51 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.680 He found a new version of himself in the halls 52 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:37.759 of his local church and love in the fundamentalist sect 53 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.599 of the Branch Davidians. Later, with a new name and 54 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:44.159 professed prophetic powers, Koresh ushered in a new era for 55 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:47.560 the Davidians that prized his own sexual conquest as much 56 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.400 as his follower's faith. As one survivor has said, what 57 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.599 better way for a worthless child to feel worse than 58 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:58.560 to become God. In his signature immersive storytelling, Talty reveals 59 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.719 how Koresh's fixation on holy war, which would deliver the 60 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.719 Davidians to the reward and confirm himself as Christ, collided 61 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:10.120 with his paranoid obsession with firearms to destructive effect their 62 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.479 deadly fifty one day standoff with the embattled FPI, and 63 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:19.240 atf he shows embodied an anti government ethic that continues 64 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:23.759 to resonate today, now thirty years after that unforgettable moment. 65 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.680 Koresh presents the tragedy at Waco and the government mistrust 66 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.159 it inspired in its fullest context. Yet the book that 67 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.120 we're featuring this evening is Koresh The True Story of 68 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.800 David Koresh and the Tragedy at Waco with my special 69 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.520 guest journalist and author, Steven Talty. Welcome to the program, 70 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:43.960 and thank you very much for this interview. Steven Talty, 71 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:45.840 Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Thank 72 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:49.560 you so much, and congratulations on this incredible book. 73 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:50.120 Thanks. 74 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.439 Let's talk about how and why you came to this 75 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:56.439 want to be the author of this story. 76 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:59.000 Sure, So in nineteen ninety three, I was living in 77 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.599 New York City. I was twenty eight years old, and 78 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:05.439 I recall just turning on end one day and seeing 79 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:08.080 these images of the place I'd never really heard of, 80 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:12.000 Mount Caramel Compound in Waco. So you know, if you 81 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:14.520 were around back then, you remember that it just dominated 82 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.399 the cable news. It was really one of the first 83 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:20.160 big cable news stories, and so it was NonStop. It 84 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.120 was wall to wall. So for fifty one days we 85 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.399 watched basically the same camera shot from about two miles 86 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.959 away of this compound, and there wasn't a lot going on. 87 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.519 I mean, if you recall, you could barely even see 88 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:37.480 the faces in the window. So this whole tragedy unfolded 89 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.199 and it seemed like everything was happening off stage. You 90 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:43.079 couldn't see the negotiators, you couldn't hear them, you couldn't 91 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:46.079 see the Davidians. We had very little idea of, you know, 92 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.079 what their attitudes were, Were they being held, were they 93 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.519 they're willingly? So even from the beginning, it was kind 94 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.519 of an enigma. And after fifty one days, of course, 95 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.319 we had the fire that ended the lives of seventy 96 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.959 six people, and I remember shutting off the TV and 97 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.240 saying to myself, what did I just watch? Really had 98 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:10.000 no idea how these events had sort of come to be. 99 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:16.360 So that was really the impetus, you know, for the book. 100 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:19.959 I think of it almost as the origin story of 101 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:23.959 David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. How did they set 102 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:26.519 on this path that ended up with a leaf of 103 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:31.199 confrontation with the FBI, and what did it mean for 104 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:31.759 the country? 105 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:36.000 Right away, in this book, you take us to August seventeenth, 106 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:41.800 nineteen fifty nine, Bonnie Clark and Vernon Howell take us 107 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.920 back to Vernon Howell's beginnings. 108 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:49.000 Sure so, Vernon Howell was the future David Koresh's real 109 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.959 birth name was also his father's name, but his mom, 110 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:55.319 Bonnie Clark, grew up in a working class you know, 111 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:57.519 you might call it a redneck family, and I think 112 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.680 they would accept that without any shame or a Her 113 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.800 father were construction had sort of moved looking for ways 114 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.879 to support his family for years. So she was raised 115 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.800 in the Seventh day Adventist household, pretty strict. It was 116 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.519 the fifties and she was a religious girl, so she 117 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:18.199 went to a Seventh day Adventist school. She went to 118 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:20.600 Sunday School. By the time she was thirteen, she was 119 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:23.040 rebelling a bit. She was going out with her friends 120 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:25.639 from Houston. They would go to the clubs. They were 121 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.959 boy crazy, and so that's sort of how her life 122 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:31.199 was going at that time. When she met who she 123 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:33.720 thought was a catch, Vernon Howell. He was older, he 124 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:37.240 was eighteen, who was driving. So she was attracted to 125 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:39.720 him and they, you know, they got together and she 126 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.000 got pregnant. You know, this is the fifties and this 127 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:45.360 is not acceptable in small town Texas life to be 128 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.720 a pregnant teenager. So she felt a lot of shame. 129 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:52.240 She felt a lot of I guess anger, if you will, 130 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.920 from her family. Her father was an alcoholic, sort of 131 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.199 a blackout alcoholic, and this baby didn't improve matters at all. 132 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.680 Circumstances to which Vernon Howell came into the world were 133 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:07.240 not auspicious. He had a father who didn't really want 134 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:09.720 to be a father. Parents broke up soon after she 135 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.560 got pregnant. He had a grandfather who kind of disowned 136 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.800 him from the beginning. So this became a theme in 137 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:18.439 his life. Rejectioned by older men, which he desperately wanted 138 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.879 their approval, He wanted their love, but again and again 139 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.360 he found difficulty in finding that. And to me, it's 140 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.600 one of the keys to understanding young Vernon Howell what 141 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.959 his needs were. He was a guy with a big ego, 142 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.240 thought he could accomplish a lot of things in this world, 143 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.920 but he wasn't getting that respect, that acceptance that he 144 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:37.680 really craved. 145 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.079 Even though his mother was Bonnie Clark, he was raised 146 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.040 by his grandmother, Earlene. Tell us about that and did 147 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.720 he know the circumstances and who his parents really were. 148 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.360 He didn't know, and that became an issue. He really 149 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.199 thought Arlene was his mom and Bonnie was his aunt. 150 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.000 So from the get go he was kind of set 151 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.959 up to feel not only unwanted, but sort of unsure 152 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.480 of his own origins. So he had a loving grandmother. 153 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.879 Arlene was a very loving woman. Bonnie was off, you know, 154 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:14.319 working trying to create her future and her father and 155 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:16.639 his father was you know, kind of in the wind. 156 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.560 He didn't see him much, So up until about four 157 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.360 or five years old, he thought Arlene was his mom 158 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.480 and he loved her, and Bonnie was kind of an afterthought. 159 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.199 So when Bonnie came home and said, I met a 160 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:32.279 new man. We're going to move to Dallas, you know, 161 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:33.840 when to start a new life. And by the way, 162 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.080 I'm your mother, it came as a tremendous shock to 163 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.000 him because he'd already felt rejected by his grandfather, rejected 164 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.279 by his father, and now he's finding out his mom 165 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.679 is not really his mom. So you can imagine to 166 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:48.200 a child with a big ego but a fragile ego, 167 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:49.919 what a blow that must have been. 168 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.759 You talk about the Seventh day Adventist and what they 169 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.000 believed in and what they taught and what Vernon heard 170 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:57.919 growing up. 171 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:02.720 Yes, so you knoweventh Day Adventists go back almost to 172 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:06.080 the eighteen forties. So they were one of these sects 173 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:10.039 that emerged out of the revivals that kind of swept America, 174 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.559 you know, swept upstate New York first of all, but 175 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:15.879 then kind of spread across the country. And really the 176 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:20.000 core of the sect of the belief was that the 177 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:23.159 end times were coming and coming soon. So this is 178 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:27.480 something that Vernon Howell heard frequently growing up, not only 179 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:29.360 in the preachers in the radio. He listened to all 180 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.799 those Texas preachers who have their famous speaking style and 181 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.279 really kind of sucks you into the radio, but he 182 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.559 heard it from his family members. He went to Sunday School, 183 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.480 Sabbath School, so he grew up a little apart, you know. 184 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.480 He grew up in Baptist country, essentially the Bible Belt, 185 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.840 but an Adventist had slightly different beliefs to kind of 186 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.120 set you apart. So David, let's call him Vernon for now, 187 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:54.559 was very religious child. His brother remembered leaving him in 188 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.399 the morning and Vernon is kneeling by the bed and praying, 189 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.600 and his brother would come back hours later and Vernon 190 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:04.200 was still there. So there was this real deep belief, 191 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.200 deep faith that I think comes from his rejection from 192 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.720 other people in his life. He was looking for reassurance. 193 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.159 He was looking for a presence that loved him, and 194 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.720 he found that in God. He became really obsessed with religion, 195 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.679 wanted to go here live preachers. Of course, this was 196 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.440 not completely unusual and his atmosphere there's a lot of 197 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.799 religious families in Texas in the sixties, so he wasn't 198 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:34.120 unusual in that way. But he was really almost obsessive 199 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:34.879 in his faith. 200 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.120 At the same time, at school, socially he did not 201 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:42.759 succeed whatsoever. So tell us about school grades and socially 202 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:43.840 at school. 203 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.200 Sure, so Vernon had a learning disability. He had trouble reading. 204 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.679 He would say later it wasn't dyslexia, it was just 205 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:52.919 a problem with understanding the words on the page. And 206 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.240 I think this is important when we think about him 207 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:59.679 later as a preacher who's famous for getting up and speaking, 208 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:03.399 flipping from one book to another and connecting them and 209 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.120 giving giving the scriptures his own original interpretation. And one 210 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.159 of the things we learned early on is that he 211 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.519 couldn't understand a book the way that other people did. 212 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.960 He couldn't read sentences and get the same sense that 213 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.080 an average six or seven year old could. So he 214 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:22.519 began to sort of invent what he couldn't understand. If 215 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:24.399 he read something and there was a passage that he 216 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.480 didn't quite get, he would kind of make up in 217 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:29.159 his own head what was going on. And that's something 218 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:31.960 he really did later on with the Bible. He would 219 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:34.879 take liberties with the scriptures and say, you know, I'm 220 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.159 giving this kind of a radical interpretation. And I think 221 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.600 some of that goes back to his learning disability. He 222 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.879 couldn't get the text, so he made things up. So 223 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.440 his grades were not great. Socially, he was something of 224 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:50.120 an outcast. He was put in a special class for 225 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.039 slow learners, and of course he heard the chance of 226 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:57.519 retired and four eyes in the schoolyard. He wore pretty 227 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.200 big glasses that he kept through his life. So yeah, 228 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.240 after the rejection from the men in his family, he 229 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.440 felt the rejection of his peers. He was not popular, 230 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.320 he was shy. And the interesting thing when you can 231 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.360 prepare and contrast that to David later, you know, later 232 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.200 on he's almost a Texas stereotype. He's a gun geek, 233 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:18.120 he's into muscle cars, he loves rock and roll, he's aggressive, 234 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.000 you know, this whole macho thing that goes with the 235 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:24.080 Texas boyhood. Was really evident. But in his real boyhood 236 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.000 he was very different. He was, you know, his stepfather 237 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.360 would accuse him of being almost girly because he wore 238 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:33.039 his hair long. It was the seventies, and so he 239 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.720 was not this typical gung ho Texas boy. He even 240 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.159 when he got into sports, he was a great runner, 241 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.519 and he joined the football teams, which is what you 242 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:46.320 do in Texas. There's nothing bigger than Friday night high 243 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:49.399 school football. But Vernon didn't love it. He didn't love 244 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:52.240 the aggressiveness. He didn't love the coaches say saying, go 245 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.440 kill that guy. He was kind of a softer personality. 246 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.200 So it's interesting that he kind of grew into something 247 00:12:58.200 --> 00:12:59.600 that he rejected early on. 248 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.279 What he finds early on Vernon is the power of 249 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.120 music to not only help him, but also the attention 250 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.759 that he had never gotten before things had changed. 251 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.120 Explain Yeah, and you know what a lot of people 252 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.360 that I interviewed said, if David had made it It's 253 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.320 a rock star, he would never have become this messiah, 254 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:24.000 this cult leader. He was looking for a way to 255 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.000 set himself apart and to be admired, even exalted, and 256 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:29.480 he found that in rock and roll. He was a 257 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.080 pretty good guitarist. He would play for the FBI later on, 258 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.600 and you know, I spoke to some agents and they 259 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:37.960 were like, you know what, not bad. He could play. 260 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.679 So he had his little bands with his friends, you know, 261 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:42.799 when he was a young teenager, you know, set up 262 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.639 a rehearsal space in the little room he was living in. 263 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.840 And he definitely had fans. You know, he was kind 264 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:49.480 of a big deal in his high school and things 265 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:54.200 like that. So this was his real first taste of admiration, 266 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.080 of respect. The girls and the kids who used to 267 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.039 tease him and mock him now came up to him 268 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.519 and said, you know, great playing, great work. So that 269 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.759 was the first sort of hint of approval that he got, 270 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:06.360 and he just absorbed it like a sponge. That was 271 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:10.240 very important to David. Like a lot of these cult leaders, 272 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.159 like Charles Manson and Jim Jones, you know a lot 273 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.600 of them have had these wounds from childhood that they're 274 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.279 trying to repair, and that's certainly true of David Koresh 275 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.639 In music. He found a way to impress the girls, 276 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:24.639 but there was always a catch for him because he 277 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.960 felt that he was playing the devil's music. He wasn't 278 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.480 playing gospel. He was playing Jethro Tull fog hat kind 279 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.559 of the soft rock of that era. And when he 280 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.080 was playing sometimes he would actually take the guitar and 281 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.440 throw it down on the ground and he would tell people, 282 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.679 I felt the devil, you know, in the music. The 283 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.639 devil was trying to get a hold of me. So 284 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.000 even in this sort of joy he found with music, 285 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.399 there was always this kind of snare that was he 286 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.600 wasn't doing God's work, he was doing the devil's work. 287 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.559 He had an obsession with music somewhat, but his real 288 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.360 obsession was with the Bible, and that obsession grew, and 289 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:02.159 he also was reading the studies of William Miller and 290 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:05.759 the lectures of Ellen G. White, who were major figures 291 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.519 in the Seventh day Adventist Church. He was looking for something, 292 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.559 you wrote, So tell us a little bit about what 293 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:17.720 he reads with the writings of Ellen White and William Miller. 294 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.879 Sure, so, yeah, David was searching. He was definitely on 295 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.519 a quest. He wanted answers, He kind of wanted revelation. 296 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.759 So he went to different churches. He went to the Baptists. 297 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.000 He would sort of attend their services. He would go 298 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.679 to these big tent revivals that they still had in 299 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.399 the seventies and Texas where preachers would come in and 300 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:38.320 talk about the end times coming. But again and again, 301 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:42.240 what David wanted with sort of immediate answers. He wasn't 302 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.000 looking for something in the afterlife. He really felt, you know, 303 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.600 I'm in pain now, I have problems now, I need 304 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.519 solutions now. So he kind of turned away from the 305 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.679 traditional churches and went back to his mother's church, the Adventists. 306 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.039 So he went to Tyler, Texas and found this congregation 307 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.679 and he was you know, he would tell people like, 308 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:02.960 I'm a newborn baby, I need to learn, I need 309 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.759 to have prophecy. And he was at first quite popular 310 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.279 because he was so passionate about it, and they were like, 311 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.399 you know, this young man has come in very sincere, 312 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.360 really looking for what they call the light, the new light, 313 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.639 you know, the new sort of truth about God. But 314 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.080 what you soon realize about Vernon Howell is that it 315 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.639 was never enough. He would be in the pews and 316 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.000 he would be listening, but soon he wanted to preach. 317 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.039 He kind of tried to take over these, you know, 318 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.000 these church meetings. So at times he would actually rush 319 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.200 up to the pulpit, kind of shoulder the pastor aside 320 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.159 and give his interpretation. So I think right here we 321 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:42.399 see the kind of just how insatiable he was for control. Really, 322 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:44.320 he didn't want to be a receiver of wisdom. He 323 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.279 wanted to give it out. He wanted to be, you know, 324 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.759 in the spotlight. So this caused a lot of This 325 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.679 caused a lot of consternation among the congregation, and they 326 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.919 began to sour on him. But to your question about 327 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.279 what was Ellen White, what were the other sort of 328 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.600 prophets of that church teaching? A lot of it was 329 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:05.400 about prophecy. This is a prophetic church. They were looking 330 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:09.039 for sort of signals that the end times were coming 331 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:14.200 for the Adventists and a lot of similar sex. That's 332 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.519 not a horrible thing to imagine, because the end times 333 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:21.759 of course bring the return of Jesus and God's new kingdom. 334 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.400 So it was actually something to look forward to, so 335 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.759 very much a millennial church, very much looking for the 336 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.599 return of Christ soon as opposed to two hundred years 337 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.960 from now. And this really, this is something that David 338 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.240 took in and began to be It began to be 339 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.039 part of his theology. 340 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.279 You write about a woman named Linda, a girl named Linda, 341 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:47.359 fifteen years old, and the relationship that David or Vernon 342 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:51.559 strikes up with her, and the relationship that the father 343 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.400 allows as well. Tell us about that. 344 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.599 Sure, that was his real first girlfriend, and he became 345 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.119 infatuated with her. And you know, when you think about 346 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:04.599 his mother getting pregnant at thirteen, he was three or 347 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:07.559 four years older than her, So it wasn't so unusual 348 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.400 for rural, working class Texas to be dating a girl 349 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.599 in her mid teens, as sort of crazy as that 350 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.400 seems to us now. So of course she felt pregnant 351 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.680 and this completely changed the relationship. David actually told her 352 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.279 I'm impotent. I can't be the father over the phone 353 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:24.480 when he first heard this news, and she was crushed 354 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.400 and he hung up the phone and felt terribly guilty. 355 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.160 She ended up getting an abortion, and David was very 356 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:32.759 sort of depressed about this. He felt that he had 357 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.519 murdered somebody. And he had actually grown to like the 358 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:37.319 idea of being a father. He thought, I can do 359 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:39.000 it in a way that, you know, I don't have 360 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:40.680 to raise a child the way that I was raised. 361 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.880 He was going to do it better. So this whole 362 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.160 relationship kind of threw him into impression. Who was living 363 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.920 in his car, who was writing poetry that at times 364 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.519 seems suicidal. So he was definitely in this kind of 365 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.559 emotional spiritual crisis. And again just goes back to the 366 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.039 churches looking in the scriptures. David really wanted answers. Now 367 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:01.240 that's really kind of what sets him apart. And that 368 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.640 goes on to the Branch Davidians. He promised the Branch 369 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.920 Davidians the apocalypse in your lifetime, not in the afterlife. 370 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.400 So that became very important to his theology. 371 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.720 Now along the way in his development, he goes to 372 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:19.599 a Seventh Day Adventist preacher, Jim Gilly in Arlington, Texas, 373 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.279 and you write that Vernon was wrapped. He went to 374 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.680 the seminars seven days that week, and then he approached 375 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.279 Jim Gilly. What did he have to say to Jim Gilly? 376 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.680 And how about the ideas that were forming in his 377 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.240 mind as a preacher himself. 378 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.440 Sure, So what Gilly did that was kind of interesting 379 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.559 is that he would take passages from the scriptures and 380 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:42.519 compare them with things that were in that day's news. 381 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.119 So you'd actually have a video screen setup and he 382 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.480 might have an image from you know, the Bible, and 383 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.559 he would have not a screenshot, but a picture of 384 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.799 a headline about a disaster in Indonesia or locusts or 385 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.559 some other disaster. And what he was saying is that, 386 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.000 you know, if you look at the news, you can 387 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.240 tell that the end times are approaching. So David was 388 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.480 absolutely entranced by this. As you said, he came every 389 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.200 night for the whole week and what he saw were 390 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.920 two things. I think one was the ability of one 391 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.759 man to move a crowd and really get those people 392 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.319 behind it and totally you know, feel what he was saying. 393 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:20.960 So David always wanted to be that guy at the 394 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.480 head of the room. He was in the pews listening, 395 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.599 but he had to go and talk to Jim Gilly, 396 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.759 so he went backstage and what he said to Dave 397 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.720 Jim Gilly was, you know, it's a fantastic presentation, but 398 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.960 you're skipping the Seventh Seals. So the Seventh Seals are 399 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.799 a part of revelation that book of you know, the 400 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.640 end Times in the Bible, and the unlocking of each 401 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.359